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The source for the time of 08:46:40 is the NTSB Flight Path Study from February 2002. The 9/11 commission report (July 2004) repeats this, citing the NTSB. The source for 08:46:30 is NCSTAR 1-9 (November 2008). This is both more thorough and more recent. It discusses the times in detail in section 5.2.3, Timing of Key Events. This presents the times of various events, uncertainties in timing, and the process used to determine when things happened to how many significant figures. This source, both more detailed and more recent, is the one we should use. Alternatively, we should stop fussing with 08:46:40/08:46:30 and report the time as 8:46. If reliable sources make an issue of 08:46:40/08:46:30 then we can look at that, but mainstream sources don't really take this up. If this all seems incomprehensibly fussy and obsessive, do a Google search for "8:46:40" "8:46:30" and see who does take this up. (posted at Talk:Timeline for the day of the September 11 attacks and Talk:American Airlines Flight 11.) Tom Harrison Talk 13:13, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
It says in the lead "Many in the streets witnessed the strike; several video recordings show the initial impact, the most well known being that recorded by Jules Naudet."
"Several" is a little inaccurate. There is some guy who was going into a tunnel that got kind of like the explosion, there was a time-lapse shot, or whatever they are called, where it is only like 3 or 4 pictures of it, then there is the Naudet footage. So really there is only one shot showing the impact, not just the explosion. So the word "several", at least to me isn't really accurate.
I propose the minor change to this or something similar:
"Many in the streets witnessed the strike; however few video recordings captured the moment. Documentary film maker Jules Naudet captured the only known footage of the initial impact." Zdawg1029 ( talk) 06:26, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
This is a featured article. I assume it was reviewed very carefully. I respect that.
How about this proposal? The actions of Betty Ong should be separated from the article and put at the very end.
I think such proposal is bad but it is consistent with what other editors are suggesting in the 2015 Thalys train attack article talk page (last section). They want to separate the actions of the crew and stick it at the end. Maybe they want to hide it?
I will do it for this article to see how it looks then revert it back within a minute. By looking at the diffs, you can see if it improves it.
What do you think? Sandra opposed to terrorism ( talk) 17:29, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
"Some workers found bodies strapped to airplane seats and discovered the body of a flight attendant with her hands bound, suggesting the hijackers might have used plastic handcuffs."
I am not a conspiracy theorist, but this paragraph casts some doubts.Here, it says that some workers found a body of a flight attendant of Flight 11 at Ground Zero with her body bound to the seat, suggesting that the hijackers used plastic handcuffs.
If it is the case, it should have reported by Betty Ong and Amy Sweeney, that a flight attendant is tied to a seat by the hijackers or she is held by the hijackers.
Can someone help me answer this oddity?? Books Nash ( talk) 11:09, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
"Suqami's passport survived the crash and landed in the street below. Soaked in jet fuel, it was picked up by a passerby who gave it to a New York City Police Department (NYPD) detective shortly before the South Tower collapsed."
Something is really fishy.How come passport, made up of the most fragile and combustible object, PAPER, managed to survive a fiery explosion and inferno of the impact of Flight 11 on North Tower and land unscathed on the ground, so much that we can even easily read and identify that it belonged to hijacker Satam al Suqami.
Can someone explain this oddity?? Books Nash ( talk) 10:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
David J Johnson, I did not meant to shout.I meant to emphasize the point.I hope you understand. Books Nash ( talk) 14:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reliable and verifiable passenger manifest for AA Flt. 11? The side box states, "92 (including 5 hijackers)". What is the source for this data? Earlier I deleted an external source that no longer worked so we need a source for this or that needs to be changed to "unknown" or removed as an item of information. My scissor-clock has begun to tick on this item, so can anyone help with this? Jtpaladin ( talk) 11:06, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
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The events of both flights have been memorialized on film. For unclear reasons, some apparently consider film of AA Flight 11 "trivia" while film of UA Flight 93 is OK. I see both events of both flights are interesting, impactful, and films of their final hours as worthy of note in the articles. This includes Zero Hour (2004 TV series), made by the same folks behind Mayday (Canadian TV series). PLawrence99cx ( talk) 18:45, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
"Some workers found bodies strapped to airplane seats and discovered the body of a flight attendant with her hands bound, suggesting the hijackers might have used plastic handcuffs." I find this a little hard to believe, given the fact that the occupants of the plane were subjected to 465-MPH impact forces, raging fires and explosions, and the collapse of the building. 76.0.130.8 ( talk) 20:40, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
"Investigators have recovered a pair of severed hands bound together with plastic handcuffs from the World Trade Center debris, police sources said Friday." Hmmmmmm 76.0.130.8 ( talk) 22:56, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
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In the Hijacking section of the article, there was a line stating
“ | "Before dying, Ogonowski managed to engage the aircraft's radio system to allow air traffic control to listen to the terrorists' conversations in the aircraft's cabin." [1] | ” |
This does not properly express how aircraft radios operate, since the frequency would have been blocked by a stuck mic. Any pilot (including myself) would already know this, but you don't have to take my word for it: this phenomenon is described by the FAA here:
“ | BLOCKED- Phraseology used to indicate that a radio transmission has been distorted or interrupted due to multiple simultaneous radio transmissions. [2] | ” |
It's also described on the Carrier-sense multiple access page.
Other information on the American 11 page seems to express that Atta was keying the microphone himself, thinking he was addressing the passengers. This is similar to what is described as occurring with United 93.
The reference provided from the original statement is a Telegraph news article from two days after the attack. I have not seen any other reference stating this as such, and I think it's clear that the Telegraph article is not a good enough source for this claim.
With these things considered, I think the line should not be included in the article.
-- Tkbrett ( talk) 05:43, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
“ | At 8:24:38, the following transmission came from American 11:
The controller only heard something unintelligible; he did not hear the specific words "we have some planes." The next transmission came seconds later:
[...] At 8:34, the Boston Center controller received a third transmission from American 11:
|
” |
“ | The hijackers attacked at 9:28. While traveling 35,000 feet above eastern Ohio, United 93 suddenly dropped 700 feet. Eleven seconds into the descent, the FAA’s air traffic control center in Cleveland received the first of two radio transmissions from the aircraft. During the first broadcast, the captain or first officer could be heard declaring "Mayday" amid the sounds of a physical struggle in the cockpit. The second radio transmission, 35 seconds later, indicated that the fight was continuing. The captain or first officer could be heard shouting: "Hey get out of here—get out of here—get out of here." (p. 11) | ” |
“ | At 9:32, a hijacker, probably Jarrah, made or attempted to make the following announcement to the passengers of Flight 93: "Ladies and Gentlemen: Here the captain, please sit down keep remaining sitting. We have a bomb on board. So, sit." (p. 12) | ” |
This conversation has gone off track. The source says explicitly that the pilot was pushing the 'push-to-talk' button intermittently, i.e. holding it down but not speaking into it. It's quite clear what the source means and that what the source says is not accurately reflected in the article text. I have amended. DrKay ( talk) 11:55, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
“ | Before dying, Ogonowski had managed to intermittently engage the aircraft's radio system to allow air traffic control to listen to part of the terrorists' conversations. | ” |
“ | Don't do anything foolish; you won't be hurt, the newspaper reported that the hijacker said, quoting air controllers. We have more planes. We have other planes. | ” |
“ | 1213:31 AAL-11: twenty right American eleven. | ” |
“ | 1224:36 AAL-11: **
1224:38 AAL-11: we have some planes. just stay quiet and you'll be okay we are returning to the airport. |
” |
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I am removing it; unfortunately, I was the one who put it on this article all those years ago, as I wanted to keep the myth of some of the heroism of 9/11, especially the flight crew. Flight 11’s pilot’s didn’t keep an open mic so that the hijacker’s voice could be heard. From what I have gathered, that was just early news articles misinterpreting why hijacker pilot Atta mistakenly transmitted to ATC when telling the passengers to stay in their seats. I’m not impeaching or downplaying the bravery of the Flight 11 crew, but that doesn’t seems to have been what happened. Regardless, I’m sure the pilots tried to fight back, but it would have been over quickly. We never know if they were killed or incapacitated, but we hope it was over quick.
I think the testimony of passengers on that plane (& by extension on the other three planes too as a descriptive general pattern of attack) stating the hijackers were armed with knives and had stabbed passengers and the pilots to gain access to the cockpit means that is virtually certain what happened to the pilots on this plane too.
In addition, the source (if you read it) doesn’t mention that the pilot was killed when he activated the radio was but was alive and that Atta’s words were to him and not the passengers, which makes no sense. The article refers to a pilot, this is very inaccurate even if one considers the source. The article continues to write in the text with affirmative language that the pilots were alive and somehow trying to interfere. Why does this continue to haunt this page?
What happened to him while he was in the plane? Was he stabbed to death or did they use Mace to gain control? I would think that the pilot wouldn’t just voluntarily give up control of their flight without a fight to the death. Any help? He’s only mentioned once in the article and I can’t find any sources for how he died anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:1322:8149:85A9:A3CA:6A89:7C5 ( talk) 17:53, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
The article quotes the "pilot of the first aircraft to hit New York's World Trade Centre was told that he was "not going to get hurt" as Arab hijackers stabbed air stewardesses at the rear of the plane to lure him out of the cockpit... Ogonowski...had the presence of mind to activate a "push-to-talk" button intermittently so that the authorities on the ground could listen to the horrific events unfolding on board American Airlines Flight 11. Ogonowski was told: "Don't do anything foolish. You're not going to get killed." But even as this was happening, the pilot and his co-pilot, Tom McGuinness, knew that their stewardesses were being attacked with knives at the back of the aircraft."
This makes no sense, the article makes it sounds like Ogonowski was heard on some (unreleased) transmissions: Atta grabbed the ATC radio (which we were told he probably thought was the PA system) and made his statements and then put the ATC radio back. When Ogonowski pushed the yoke mic button whatever he and Atta said could be heard. Addtinoaly, the article makes it sound like Atta was saying his infamous words to the pilots, when from the recording he is clearly saying it (at least he thought) to the passengers.
I was the one who actually uploaded this source (at least the Telegraph one) on 13:32, 21 January 2017. from Ogonowski`s article. It was removed from the Ogonowski article by Tkbrett, and ironically, David J Johnson who is resolute to keep it removed it previously on 09:09, 13 July 2016, saying and I quote "Telegraph article did not name reliable sources and was filed in immediate events after 9/11".
The fact is, Flight 11's captain did not key the microphone. As Tkbrett mentioned, the article suggesting he did was written immediately during the confusion of 9/11 and I had (due to my young age, was wanting to perverse the myth of some of the herosim on 9/11) wanted to make it look like it did happen.
Like it or not, the fact is it did not happen.
I have been checking several sources like the LA Times which have the crash time at 8:46:40 A.M. And I find it and the Commission report which has the same time to be the most accurate timestamp. Anyone want to give me feedback on this, I would appreciate it, thanks Miked1992 ( talk) 03:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)Miked1992 Miked1992 ( talk) 03:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
There are no credible articles written after 2001 claiming that passengers were found strapped in their seats from Flight 11. It was a rumor at the time but has been debunked countless times. Why is it not removed? AML11998877 ( talk) 09:10, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
In a recording, a few months later in Afghanistan, Al Qaeda's leader, Osama bin Laden, took responsibility for the attack. The attack on the World Trade Center exceeded even bin Laden's expectations: he had expected only the floors above the plane strikes to collapse.
The "videos" have been removed from the original page as evidenced in the Talk page, should this segment exist on this page? Should that page have a reference still added? Shadowjonathan ( talk) 09:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Since @ David J Johnson reverted. I have a question.
EVERY SINGLE Aircraft accident, incident article on wikipedia contains information about aircraft engines, the year of manufacture and so on. On this particular incident, the aircraft engines played a major role in the crash as they were ejected out of the opposite ends of WTC 1 and WTC 2 as debris and landed on the streets below and people took photos of them, and that is how particular aircraft partly was identified and the debris that belonged to them.
How exactly Aircraft engine information is not relevant ("far too much detail") to an article about AIRCRAFT INCIDENT?
It seems there an organized effort by @ David J Johnson to get rid of important and relevant information for some reason, which is concerning. This just undermines wikipedia as a platform for getting crucial and important information. And you are just helping conspiracy theories to thrive, because there are tons of people and growing in numbers who actually believe planes didn't crash in WTC and never seen the engines because this information is withhold (for some reason). When it comes to such incidents, every detail matters and engines are integral part to aircraft operation.
So, why @ David J Johnson even removed photos of engine wreckage? Maybe maps must be removed too because average person can't read a map anymore in 2024 and that is also "far too much detail" for the average mind who needs to be fed dumbed down information only? YitzhakNat ( talk) 21:54, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
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The source for the time of 08:46:40 is the NTSB Flight Path Study from February 2002. The 9/11 commission report (July 2004) repeats this, citing the NTSB. The source for 08:46:30 is NCSTAR 1-9 (November 2008). This is both more thorough and more recent. It discusses the times in detail in section 5.2.3, Timing of Key Events. This presents the times of various events, uncertainties in timing, and the process used to determine when things happened to how many significant figures. This source, both more detailed and more recent, is the one we should use. Alternatively, we should stop fussing with 08:46:40/08:46:30 and report the time as 8:46. If reliable sources make an issue of 08:46:40/08:46:30 then we can look at that, but mainstream sources don't really take this up. If this all seems incomprehensibly fussy and obsessive, do a Google search for "8:46:40" "8:46:30" and see who does take this up. (posted at Talk:Timeline for the day of the September 11 attacks and Talk:American Airlines Flight 11.) Tom Harrison Talk 13:13, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
It says in the lead "Many in the streets witnessed the strike; several video recordings show the initial impact, the most well known being that recorded by Jules Naudet."
"Several" is a little inaccurate. There is some guy who was going into a tunnel that got kind of like the explosion, there was a time-lapse shot, or whatever they are called, where it is only like 3 or 4 pictures of it, then there is the Naudet footage. So really there is only one shot showing the impact, not just the explosion. So the word "several", at least to me isn't really accurate.
I propose the minor change to this or something similar:
"Many in the streets witnessed the strike; however few video recordings captured the moment. Documentary film maker Jules Naudet captured the only known footage of the initial impact." Zdawg1029 ( talk) 06:26, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
This is a featured article. I assume it was reviewed very carefully. I respect that.
How about this proposal? The actions of Betty Ong should be separated from the article and put at the very end.
I think such proposal is bad but it is consistent with what other editors are suggesting in the 2015 Thalys train attack article talk page (last section). They want to separate the actions of the crew and stick it at the end. Maybe they want to hide it?
I will do it for this article to see how it looks then revert it back within a minute. By looking at the diffs, you can see if it improves it.
What do you think? Sandra opposed to terrorism ( talk) 17:29, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
"Some workers found bodies strapped to airplane seats and discovered the body of a flight attendant with her hands bound, suggesting the hijackers might have used plastic handcuffs."
I am not a conspiracy theorist, but this paragraph casts some doubts.Here, it says that some workers found a body of a flight attendant of Flight 11 at Ground Zero with her body bound to the seat, suggesting that the hijackers used plastic handcuffs.
If it is the case, it should have reported by Betty Ong and Amy Sweeney, that a flight attendant is tied to a seat by the hijackers or she is held by the hijackers.
Can someone help me answer this oddity?? Books Nash ( talk) 11:09, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
"Suqami's passport survived the crash and landed in the street below. Soaked in jet fuel, it was picked up by a passerby who gave it to a New York City Police Department (NYPD) detective shortly before the South Tower collapsed."
Something is really fishy.How come passport, made up of the most fragile and combustible object, PAPER, managed to survive a fiery explosion and inferno of the impact of Flight 11 on North Tower and land unscathed on the ground, so much that we can even easily read and identify that it belonged to hijacker Satam al Suqami.
Can someone explain this oddity?? Books Nash ( talk) 10:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
David J Johnson, I did not meant to shout.I meant to emphasize the point.I hope you understand. Books Nash ( talk) 14:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reliable and verifiable passenger manifest for AA Flt. 11? The side box states, "92 (including 5 hijackers)". What is the source for this data? Earlier I deleted an external source that no longer worked so we need a source for this or that needs to be changed to "unknown" or removed as an item of information. My scissor-clock has begun to tick on this item, so can anyone help with this? Jtpaladin ( talk) 11:06, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
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The events of both flights have been memorialized on film. For unclear reasons, some apparently consider film of AA Flight 11 "trivia" while film of UA Flight 93 is OK. I see both events of both flights are interesting, impactful, and films of their final hours as worthy of note in the articles. This includes Zero Hour (2004 TV series), made by the same folks behind Mayday (Canadian TV series). PLawrence99cx ( talk) 18:45, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
"Some workers found bodies strapped to airplane seats and discovered the body of a flight attendant with her hands bound, suggesting the hijackers might have used plastic handcuffs." I find this a little hard to believe, given the fact that the occupants of the plane were subjected to 465-MPH impact forces, raging fires and explosions, and the collapse of the building. 76.0.130.8 ( talk) 20:40, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
"Investigators have recovered a pair of severed hands bound together with plastic handcuffs from the World Trade Center debris, police sources said Friday." Hmmmmmm 76.0.130.8 ( talk) 22:56, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
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In the Hijacking section of the article, there was a line stating
“ | "Before dying, Ogonowski managed to engage the aircraft's radio system to allow air traffic control to listen to the terrorists' conversations in the aircraft's cabin." [1] | ” |
This does not properly express how aircraft radios operate, since the frequency would have been blocked by a stuck mic. Any pilot (including myself) would already know this, but you don't have to take my word for it: this phenomenon is described by the FAA here:
“ | BLOCKED- Phraseology used to indicate that a radio transmission has been distorted or interrupted due to multiple simultaneous radio transmissions. [2] | ” |
It's also described on the Carrier-sense multiple access page.
Other information on the American 11 page seems to express that Atta was keying the microphone himself, thinking he was addressing the passengers. This is similar to what is described as occurring with United 93.
The reference provided from the original statement is a Telegraph news article from two days after the attack. I have not seen any other reference stating this as such, and I think it's clear that the Telegraph article is not a good enough source for this claim.
With these things considered, I think the line should not be included in the article.
-- Tkbrett ( talk) 05:43, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
“ | At 8:24:38, the following transmission came from American 11:
The controller only heard something unintelligible; he did not hear the specific words "we have some planes." The next transmission came seconds later:
[...] At 8:34, the Boston Center controller received a third transmission from American 11:
|
” |
“ | The hijackers attacked at 9:28. While traveling 35,000 feet above eastern Ohio, United 93 suddenly dropped 700 feet. Eleven seconds into the descent, the FAA’s air traffic control center in Cleveland received the first of two radio transmissions from the aircraft. During the first broadcast, the captain or first officer could be heard declaring "Mayday" amid the sounds of a physical struggle in the cockpit. The second radio transmission, 35 seconds later, indicated that the fight was continuing. The captain or first officer could be heard shouting: "Hey get out of here—get out of here—get out of here." (p. 11) | ” |
“ | At 9:32, a hijacker, probably Jarrah, made or attempted to make the following announcement to the passengers of Flight 93: "Ladies and Gentlemen: Here the captain, please sit down keep remaining sitting. We have a bomb on board. So, sit." (p. 12) | ” |
This conversation has gone off track. The source says explicitly that the pilot was pushing the 'push-to-talk' button intermittently, i.e. holding it down but not speaking into it. It's quite clear what the source means and that what the source says is not accurately reflected in the article text. I have amended. DrKay ( talk) 11:55, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
“ | Before dying, Ogonowski had managed to intermittently engage the aircraft's radio system to allow air traffic control to listen to part of the terrorists' conversations. | ” |
“ | Don't do anything foolish; you won't be hurt, the newspaper reported that the hijacker said, quoting air controllers. We have more planes. We have other planes. | ” |
“ | 1213:31 AAL-11: twenty right American eleven. | ” |
“ | 1224:36 AAL-11: **
1224:38 AAL-11: we have some planes. just stay quiet and you'll be okay we are returning to the airport. |
” |
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I am removing it; unfortunately, I was the one who put it on this article all those years ago, as I wanted to keep the myth of some of the heroism of 9/11, especially the flight crew. Flight 11’s pilot’s didn’t keep an open mic so that the hijacker’s voice could be heard. From what I have gathered, that was just early news articles misinterpreting why hijacker pilot Atta mistakenly transmitted to ATC when telling the passengers to stay in their seats. I’m not impeaching or downplaying the bravery of the Flight 11 crew, but that doesn’t seems to have been what happened. Regardless, I’m sure the pilots tried to fight back, but it would have been over quickly. We never know if they were killed or incapacitated, but we hope it was over quick.
I think the testimony of passengers on that plane (& by extension on the other three planes too as a descriptive general pattern of attack) stating the hijackers were armed with knives and had stabbed passengers and the pilots to gain access to the cockpit means that is virtually certain what happened to the pilots on this plane too.
In addition, the source (if you read it) doesn’t mention that the pilot was killed when he activated the radio was but was alive and that Atta’s words were to him and not the passengers, which makes no sense. The article refers to a pilot, this is very inaccurate even if one considers the source. The article continues to write in the text with affirmative language that the pilots were alive and somehow trying to interfere. Why does this continue to haunt this page?
What happened to him while he was in the plane? Was he stabbed to death or did they use Mace to gain control? I would think that the pilot wouldn’t just voluntarily give up control of their flight without a fight to the death. Any help? He’s only mentioned once in the article and I can’t find any sources for how he died anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:1322:8149:85A9:A3CA:6A89:7C5 ( talk) 17:53, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
The article quotes the "pilot of the first aircraft to hit New York's World Trade Centre was told that he was "not going to get hurt" as Arab hijackers stabbed air stewardesses at the rear of the plane to lure him out of the cockpit... Ogonowski...had the presence of mind to activate a "push-to-talk" button intermittently so that the authorities on the ground could listen to the horrific events unfolding on board American Airlines Flight 11. Ogonowski was told: "Don't do anything foolish. You're not going to get killed." But even as this was happening, the pilot and his co-pilot, Tom McGuinness, knew that their stewardesses were being attacked with knives at the back of the aircraft."
This makes no sense, the article makes it sounds like Ogonowski was heard on some (unreleased) transmissions: Atta grabbed the ATC radio (which we were told he probably thought was the PA system) and made his statements and then put the ATC radio back. When Ogonowski pushed the yoke mic button whatever he and Atta said could be heard. Addtinoaly, the article makes it sound like Atta was saying his infamous words to the pilots, when from the recording he is clearly saying it (at least he thought) to the passengers.
I was the one who actually uploaded this source (at least the Telegraph one) on 13:32, 21 January 2017. from Ogonowski`s article. It was removed from the Ogonowski article by Tkbrett, and ironically, David J Johnson who is resolute to keep it removed it previously on 09:09, 13 July 2016, saying and I quote "Telegraph article did not name reliable sources and was filed in immediate events after 9/11".
The fact is, Flight 11's captain did not key the microphone. As Tkbrett mentioned, the article suggesting he did was written immediately during the confusion of 9/11 and I had (due to my young age, was wanting to perverse the myth of some of the herosim on 9/11) wanted to make it look like it did happen.
Like it or not, the fact is it did not happen.
I have been checking several sources like the LA Times which have the crash time at 8:46:40 A.M. And I find it and the Commission report which has the same time to be the most accurate timestamp. Anyone want to give me feedback on this, I would appreciate it, thanks Miked1992 ( talk) 03:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)Miked1992 Miked1992 ( talk) 03:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
There are no credible articles written after 2001 claiming that passengers were found strapped in their seats from Flight 11. It was a rumor at the time but has been debunked countless times. Why is it not removed? AML11998877 ( talk) 09:10, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
In a recording, a few months later in Afghanistan, Al Qaeda's leader, Osama bin Laden, took responsibility for the attack. The attack on the World Trade Center exceeded even bin Laden's expectations: he had expected only the floors above the plane strikes to collapse.
The "videos" have been removed from the original page as evidenced in the Talk page, should this segment exist on this page? Should that page have a reference still added? Shadowjonathan ( talk) 09:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Since @ David J Johnson reverted. I have a question.
EVERY SINGLE Aircraft accident, incident article on wikipedia contains information about aircraft engines, the year of manufacture and so on. On this particular incident, the aircraft engines played a major role in the crash as they were ejected out of the opposite ends of WTC 1 and WTC 2 as debris and landed on the streets below and people took photos of them, and that is how particular aircraft partly was identified and the debris that belonged to them.
How exactly Aircraft engine information is not relevant ("far too much detail") to an article about AIRCRAFT INCIDENT?
It seems there an organized effort by @ David J Johnson to get rid of important and relevant information for some reason, which is concerning. This just undermines wikipedia as a platform for getting crucial and important information. And you are just helping conspiracy theories to thrive, because there are tons of people and growing in numbers who actually believe planes didn't crash in WTC and never seen the engines because this information is withhold (for some reason). When it comes to such incidents, every detail matters and engines are integral part to aircraft operation.
So, why @ David J Johnson even removed photos of engine wreckage? Maybe maps must be removed too because average person can't read a map anymore in 2024 and that is also "far too much detail" for the average mind who needs to be fed dumbed down information only? YitzhakNat ( talk) 21:54, 23 February 2024 (UTC)