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"Status: Secure" could be misparsed as "it's secure to eat" .
.. which could prove fatal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.62.245.170 ( talk • contribs) 10:19, 28 July 2004.
In 1918, 40 German boys were sent on holiday to Poland. A Polish cook on a farm cooked them a dish of Amanita phalloides. 33 boys ate it, 2 survived, 31 died. They were buried in a communal grave and are still called "mushroom children" today.
Should articles on poisonous mushrooms like (Lethal Webcaps, Death cap, destroying angel, etc) be categorized under poisonous plants? Personally, I don't think so as mushrooms do not belong to the kingdom of plants ( plantae) at all, but a completely different kingdom ( fungi).
So, should we remove the added categories or let them be? Comments appreciated.
Michaelll 00:26, 2 December 2005 (UTC) Michaelll
I think the following section should be reworded because the first sentence and last sentence seem to be in conflict:
Proposed revision:
Comments? -- HunterZ 22:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
article claims that "death cap mushroom causes 90% of all mushroom poisoning related deaths in the world", but I just read a BBC article that claims it only 50%. Can someone verify the statistic? Thanks Alex -- Alex333sh 15:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey, does anyone know if this is a Death Cap. It was in my front yard, and if it is one, it would be a good picture to put in the article. Newnam (talk) 18:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that 194.89.192.24 is right. I went to check on the destroying angel and that photo looks extremely similar. Really!-- Rory666 21:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
In Romania intoxication with A. phalloides is common. Romanian doctors observed that by giving huge amounts of penicillin (more than 10 times the normal dose) to the intoxicated pacients might live. This has been explained later by hungarian doctors. Penicillin and the toxin from Amanita take action on the same receptors on the membrane of the liver cells. So penicillin creates bonds with the receptors and stops the amanita toxin to enter the liver cells. But there still remains the kidney problem, which can only be solved through hemodialysis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doktor bogdi ( talk • contribs) 10:50, 17 November 2006
Lets get the Milk Thistle info up on this page. http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2007/January/14/local/stories/01local.htm
We have earlier clinical trials found in Google Scholar. Now we have an emergency drug trial that proved successful for a large number of the patients admitted. And we have a newspaper article on the subject. Seems like it's time to update the cure to encyclopedic knowledge level. - 24.118.119.14 08:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I have never heard of this common name, has anyone else? cheers
Cas Liber
20:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 08:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Death Cap → Amanita phalloides — copied from WP:RM. Request made by User:Peter G Werner Scientific names are preferential for article titles, especially in articles like this one about a single discrete species. Bobblehead 03:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Support:
Comments:
The article is very nicely written, and is close to good article status. I believe the following needs to be done before the article can achieve good article status:
Lead section
Description and classification'
Notable victims
I hope these concerns can be addressed in time to pass the article as a good article. Cheers, David. MidgleyDJ 08:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
(Thanks for the input David, really is much appreciated as I have left this article for a while - someone else beat me to nominating it for GA....) cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
PS" I know dangerousness is an odd word but I was trying to think of a suitable synonym. All others, such as lethality, toxicity to me refer directly to the toxins whereas I was adding importance of the similarity. I f you can think of a synonym I'm all ears....:) cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The concern about the statement about Amanita section Phalloideae containing all known amatoxin-containing Amanita species is quite established – check the Tulloss website, check any monograph, such as Jenkins, check the recent molecular studies of genus Amanita (such as Drehmel, et al. 1999) which confirm section Phalloideae as a natural group, and you'll see this is the case. Keep in mind that one could easily view Amanita as seven different genera just as easily as one could see it as one genus, and the idea that all groups of Amanita across the board are all likely to contain amatoxins is an anachronistic view. Peter G Werner 20:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Pringle A, Vellinga EC Last chance to know? Using literature to explore the biogeography and invasion biology of the death cap mushroom Amanita phalloides (Vaill. Ex fr. : Fr.) link BIOLOGICAL INVASIONS 8 (5): 1131-1144 JUL 2006
Enjalbert F, Cassanas G, Salhi SL, et al. Distribution of the amatoxins and phallotoxins in Amanita phalloides. Influence of the tissues and the collection site COMPTES RENDUS DE L ACADEMIE DES SCIENCES SERIE III-SCIENCES DE LA VIE-LIFE SCIENCES 322 (10): 855-862 OCT 1999
Yang ZL, Oberwinkler F Fruit body development of Amanita muscaria (Basidiomycetes) NOVA HEDWIGIA 68 (3-4): 441-468 1999
Vetter J Toxins of Amanita phalloides TOXICON 36 (1): 13-24 JAN 1998
I think the article on Amanita phalloides is much improved. Well done! I'd renominated it soon for a GA Review.
Here are some points you may want to consider:
It's very close now. For the sake of fairness I wont review it again. I think many of the fungal articles tend to infere that the fruiting body is the fungus, rather than being part of the organism. MidgleyDJ 09:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
So I was going through the article, starting from bottom and started editing the language. Meanwhile, it startled me that this section is more or less about Amanita poisoning, not Amanita phalloides which I think it should solely focus upon. It's not even clear whether Natalia was eating Amanitas, not to mention poisonous fungi. I dunno, I just don't like how it is right now, but I'll continue fixing the grammar wherever I can. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paffka ( talk • contribs) 20:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC).-- Paffka 20:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
This was good but I've ditched the lists to the compound pages...but there ain't one for virotoxins yet...cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 09:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
A third group of minor active compounds are the virotoxins, which consist of 6 similar monocyclic heptapeptides. named Viroidin, Desoxoviroidin, [Ala]viroidin, [Ala]deoxoviroidin, Viroisin, and Desoxoviroisin. [1] Like the phallotoxins they do not exert any acute toxicity after ingestion in humans. [2]
References
What a cool article. I've had a Bart-Simpsonish fascination with poison mushrooms since I was a kid. My interest got a boost in adulthood from Collier's Fancies and Goodnights. Congratulations on FA. Oh, and I copyedited it. Some sections only needed touching up, but I shredded a few others pretty good. -- Milkbreath 02:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
What is the basis for the first statement? And isn't it a matter of speculation that these two individuals were (a) poisoned, (b) poisoned by mushrooms, (c) poisoned by this particular mushroom? Dependent Variable 12:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
"its range is expanding in other countries after it was accidentally introduced alongside oak, chestnut, and pine."
This phrase isn't clear to me. It appears to mean that when those species of tree were introduced to new areas, the imported tree seeds or saplings were contaminated with death cap spores, thus spreading death cap along with the trees. If so, that's confusing, because North America seems to be among the areas that death caps have been accidentally introduced into (though perhaps I'm wrong about that?), and I'm pretty sure that oak, chestnut, and pine are native to the new world. Could someone who knows about this clarify the wording?
RedSpruce
13:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I’m an amateur mycologist and I greatly appreciate this kind of quality content. I do feel compelled to point out, though, that the vague or ambiguous phrase, "after it was accidentally introduced alongside oak, chestnut, and pine" became an immediate distraction in what appears to otherwise be an excellent article (I’ve not had time to read it in its entirety). Entries under “Distribution and habitat” elaborate on this but fail to clarify.
(Wikipedia is a beautiful thing.) -- Keith-h 14:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I stumbled upon this Commons image of Amanita phalloides while perusing the
Lithuanian Wikipedia entry. Although the depicted specimen is obviously damaged, it shows the top of the cap more clearly, the way one is most likely to encounter it in the wild. —
Quicksilver
T
@
15:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, saw that too...was hoping some really cool image would turn up..I didn't quite like this one as much as it looked a bit worse for wear. 10 points for someone who can snap an ace pic this autumn....cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 20:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm curious - why is it that there is no known antidote? If nothing else, shouldn't it be possible to use some computational chemistry techniques to design an enzyme that breaks down the toxin? Raul654 16:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Aren't these the mushrooms from Shirley Jackson's "We Have Always Lived In the Castle"? I had to study that short story in high school. If it's not that, it's some literary reference. OfficeGirl 18:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Though Louis Secretan's use of the name Amanita phalloides predates Link's, it has been rejected for nomenclatural purposes because Secretan's works did not use binomial nomenclature consistently; [6 [7 some taxonomists have, however, disagreed with this opinion. [8 [9
Why did some taxonomists disagree with this opinion? This need to be explained. I do say it because I'm working in the traslation to Spanish of Amanita phalloides ( talk) 12:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The section on distribution could be more clear. Typically the "distribution" of some specie is "where you could find it in the wild". But the opening paragraph here seems to use "distribution" only for its "native" status. Isn't the whole "native" thing problematic? That is, native as of when? Most species have moved around quite a bit and we don't really know where everything ever lived.
In particular, it was jarring to first read that this was a European fungi, then to read about it in the forests of California. While the "introduced to other countries accidentally" disclaimer may technically redeem the first claim, wouldn't it be better to start by saying something like "Today, this fungus can be found in several/many/most areas of the world/temperate zones/hardwood woodlands. When first described in print by natural historians, it was restricted to Europe. . . later the fungus was introduced to other areas usually in shipments of saplings or nuts from its host trees."
I am not an expert and do not presume to directly edit such a well-vetted article--especially one that seems to be so well settled. Yet if someone would consider this, I would be grateful. In particular I am concerned that someone might jump to the "distribution" and come to the conclusion that this can't be growing in their yard because they live far, far east (or far west) of Europe. . . Vagabundus ( talk) 17:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
guys, i was wondering what the difference between bisporiga and bisporigera apart from a possible misspelling? i often see those two used interchangeably and amanita bisporiga points to destroying angels, but amanita bisporigera points to the mushroom article specifically. its just a small discrepancy that needs to be addressed.-- Thebestofall007 ( talk) 18:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
You're welcome.-- Thebestofall007 ( talk) 01:13, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
The spike in page views possibly due to two people dying here in Australia. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 00:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Since poisenings are so common how about a section in the article on how to distinguish this species and other edible mushrooms of similar appearance!? 122.148.41.172 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2014/02/most_dangerous_mushroom_death_cap_is_spreading_but_poisoning_can_be_treated.html X Ottawahitech ( talk) 04:11, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Amanita phalloides/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Previous comments now outdated and removed. Circeus ( talk) 18:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 18:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 07:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
The final sentence is "Other historians have speculated that Claudius may have died of natural causes.". I do not doubt that this is true, but I think we need to include a source or at least indicate which historians. As it stands, it's just a general statement which imparts little actual information. Does anyone have a reliable scholarly source to add? ‡ El cid, el campeador talk 18:26, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
I'm not good at writing Wiki style, so maybe someone else can add this:
https://iview.abc.net.au/video/NEWS2022102695158 2001:8003:E490:7D01:4CE8:C303:88CB:243A ( talk) 08:28, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Amanita phalloides is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 13, 2007. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
"Status: Secure" could be misparsed as "it's secure to eat" .
.. which could prove fatal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.62.245.170 ( talk • contribs) 10:19, 28 July 2004.
In 1918, 40 German boys were sent on holiday to Poland. A Polish cook on a farm cooked them a dish of Amanita phalloides. 33 boys ate it, 2 survived, 31 died. They were buried in a communal grave and are still called "mushroom children" today.
Should articles on poisonous mushrooms like (Lethal Webcaps, Death cap, destroying angel, etc) be categorized under poisonous plants? Personally, I don't think so as mushrooms do not belong to the kingdom of plants ( plantae) at all, but a completely different kingdom ( fungi).
So, should we remove the added categories or let them be? Comments appreciated.
Michaelll 00:26, 2 December 2005 (UTC) Michaelll
I think the following section should be reworded because the first sentence and last sentence seem to be in conflict:
Proposed revision:
Comments? -- HunterZ 22:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
article claims that "death cap mushroom causes 90% of all mushroom poisoning related deaths in the world", but I just read a BBC article that claims it only 50%. Can someone verify the statistic? Thanks Alex -- Alex333sh 15:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey, does anyone know if this is a Death Cap. It was in my front yard, and if it is one, it would be a good picture to put in the article. Newnam (talk) 18:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that 194.89.192.24 is right. I went to check on the destroying angel and that photo looks extremely similar. Really!-- Rory666 21:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
In Romania intoxication with A. phalloides is common. Romanian doctors observed that by giving huge amounts of penicillin (more than 10 times the normal dose) to the intoxicated pacients might live. This has been explained later by hungarian doctors. Penicillin and the toxin from Amanita take action on the same receptors on the membrane of the liver cells. So penicillin creates bonds with the receptors and stops the amanita toxin to enter the liver cells. But there still remains the kidney problem, which can only be solved through hemodialysis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doktor bogdi ( talk • contribs) 10:50, 17 November 2006
Lets get the Milk Thistle info up on this page. http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2007/January/14/local/stories/01local.htm
We have earlier clinical trials found in Google Scholar. Now we have an emergency drug trial that proved successful for a large number of the patients admitted. And we have a newspaper article on the subject. Seems like it's time to update the cure to encyclopedic knowledge level. - 24.118.119.14 08:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I have never heard of this common name, has anyone else? cheers
Cas Liber
20:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 08:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Death Cap → Amanita phalloides — copied from WP:RM. Request made by User:Peter G Werner Scientific names are preferential for article titles, especially in articles like this one about a single discrete species. Bobblehead 03:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Support:
Comments:
The article is very nicely written, and is close to good article status. I believe the following needs to be done before the article can achieve good article status:
Lead section
Description and classification'
Notable victims
I hope these concerns can be addressed in time to pass the article as a good article. Cheers, David. MidgleyDJ 08:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
(Thanks for the input David, really is much appreciated as I have left this article for a while - someone else beat me to nominating it for GA....) cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
PS" I know dangerousness is an odd word but I was trying to think of a suitable synonym. All others, such as lethality, toxicity to me refer directly to the toxins whereas I was adding importance of the similarity. I f you can think of a synonym I'm all ears....:) cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The concern about the statement about Amanita section Phalloideae containing all known amatoxin-containing Amanita species is quite established – check the Tulloss website, check any monograph, such as Jenkins, check the recent molecular studies of genus Amanita (such as Drehmel, et al. 1999) which confirm section Phalloideae as a natural group, and you'll see this is the case. Keep in mind that one could easily view Amanita as seven different genera just as easily as one could see it as one genus, and the idea that all groups of Amanita across the board are all likely to contain amatoxins is an anachronistic view. Peter G Werner 20:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Pringle A, Vellinga EC Last chance to know? Using literature to explore the biogeography and invasion biology of the death cap mushroom Amanita phalloides (Vaill. Ex fr. : Fr.) link BIOLOGICAL INVASIONS 8 (5): 1131-1144 JUL 2006
Enjalbert F, Cassanas G, Salhi SL, et al. Distribution of the amatoxins and phallotoxins in Amanita phalloides. Influence of the tissues and the collection site COMPTES RENDUS DE L ACADEMIE DES SCIENCES SERIE III-SCIENCES DE LA VIE-LIFE SCIENCES 322 (10): 855-862 OCT 1999
Yang ZL, Oberwinkler F Fruit body development of Amanita muscaria (Basidiomycetes) NOVA HEDWIGIA 68 (3-4): 441-468 1999
Vetter J Toxins of Amanita phalloides TOXICON 36 (1): 13-24 JAN 1998
I think the article on Amanita phalloides is much improved. Well done! I'd renominated it soon for a GA Review.
Here are some points you may want to consider:
It's very close now. For the sake of fairness I wont review it again. I think many of the fungal articles tend to infere that the fruiting body is the fungus, rather than being part of the organism. MidgleyDJ 09:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
So I was going through the article, starting from bottom and started editing the language. Meanwhile, it startled me that this section is more or less about Amanita poisoning, not Amanita phalloides which I think it should solely focus upon. It's not even clear whether Natalia was eating Amanitas, not to mention poisonous fungi. I dunno, I just don't like how it is right now, but I'll continue fixing the grammar wherever I can. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paffka ( talk • contribs) 20:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC).-- Paffka 20:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
This was good but I've ditched the lists to the compound pages...but there ain't one for virotoxins yet...cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 09:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
A third group of minor active compounds are the virotoxins, which consist of 6 similar monocyclic heptapeptides. named Viroidin, Desoxoviroidin, [Ala]viroidin, [Ala]deoxoviroidin, Viroisin, and Desoxoviroisin. [1] Like the phallotoxins they do not exert any acute toxicity after ingestion in humans. [2]
References
What a cool article. I've had a Bart-Simpsonish fascination with poison mushrooms since I was a kid. My interest got a boost in adulthood from Collier's Fancies and Goodnights. Congratulations on FA. Oh, and I copyedited it. Some sections only needed touching up, but I shredded a few others pretty good. -- Milkbreath 02:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
What is the basis for the first statement? And isn't it a matter of speculation that these two individuals were (a) poisoned, (b) poisoned by mushrooms, (c) poisoned by this particular mushroom? Dependent Variable 12:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
"its range is expanding in other countries after it was accidentally introduced alongside oak, chestnut, and pine."
This phrase isn't clear to me. It appears to mean that when those species of tree were introduced to new areas, the imported tree seeds or saplings were contaminated with death cap spores, thus spreading death cap along with the trees. If so, that's confusing, because North America seems to be among the areas that death caps have been accidentally introduced into (though perhaps I'm wrong about that?), and I'm pretty sure that oak, chestnut, and pine are native to the new world. Could someone who knows about this clarify the wording?
RedSpruce
13:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I’m an amateur mycologist and I greatly appreciate this kind of quality content. I do feel compelled to point out, though, that the vague or ambiguous phrase, "after it was accidentally introduced alongside oak, chestnut, and pine" became an immediate distraction in what appears to otherwise be an excellent article (I’ve not had time to read it in its entirety). Entries under “Distribution and habitat” elaborate on this but fail to clarify.
(Wikipedia is a beautiful thing.) -- Keith-h 14:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I stumbled upon this Commons image of Amanita phalloides while perusing the
Lithuanian Wikipedia entry. Although the depicted specimen is obviously damaged, it shows the top of the cap more clearly, the way one is most likely to encounter it in the wild. —
Quicksilver
T
@
15:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, saw that too...was hoping some really cool image would turn up..I didn't quite like this one as much as it looked a bit worse for wear. 10 points for someone who can snap an ace pic this autumn....cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 20:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm curious - why is it that there is no known antidote? If nothing else, shouldn't it be possible to use some computational chemistry techniques to design an enzyme that breaks down the toxin? Raul654 16:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Aren't these the mushrooms from Shirley Jackson's "We Have Always Lived In the Castle"? I had to study that short story in high school. If it's not that, it's some literary reference. OfficeGirl 18:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Though Louis Secretan's use of the name Amanita phalloides predates Link's, it has been rejected for nomenclatural purposes because Secretan's works did not use binomial nomenclature consistently; [6 [7 some taxonomists have, however, disagreed with this opinion. [8 [9
Why did some taxonomists disagree with this opinion? This need to be explained. I do say it because I'm working in the traslation to Spanish of Amanita phalloides ( talk) 12:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The section on distribution could be more clear. Typically the "distribution" of some specie is "where you could find it in the wild". But the opening paragraph here seems to use "distribution" only for its "native" status. Isn't the whole "native" thing problematic? That is, native as of when? Most species have moved around quite a bit and we don't really know where everything ever lived.
In particular, it was jarring to first read that this was a European fungi, then to read about it in the forests of California. While the "introduced to other countries accidentally" disclaimer may technically redeem the first claim, wouldn't it be better to start by saying something like "Today, this fungus can be found in several/many/most areas of the world/temperate zones/hardwood woodlands. When first described in print by natural historians, it was restricted to Europe. . . later the fungus was introduced to other areas usually in shipments of saplings or nuts from its host trees."
I am not an expert and do not presume to directly edit such a well-vetted article--especially one that seems to be so well settled. Yet if someone would consider this, I would be grateful. In particular I am concerned that someone might jump to the "distribution" and come to the conclusion that this can't be growing in their yard because they live far, far east (or far west) of Europe. . . Vagabundus ( talk) 17:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
guys, i was wondering what the difference between bisporiga and bisporigera apart from a possible misspelling? i often see those two used interchangeably and amanita bisporiga points to destroying angels, but amanita bisporigera points to the mushroom article specifically. its just a small discrepancy that needs to be addressed.-- Thebestofall007 ( talk) 18:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
You're welcome.-- Thebestofall007 ( talk) 01:13, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
The spike in page views possibly due to two people dying here in Australia. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 00:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Since poisenings are so common how about a section in the article on how to distinguish this species and other edible mushrooms of similar appearance!? 122.148.41.172 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2014/02/most_dangerous_mushroom_death_cap_is_spreading_but_poisoning_can_be_treated.html X Ottawahitech ( talk) 04:11, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Amanita phalloides/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Previous comments now outdated and removed. Circeus ( talk) 18:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 18:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 07:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
The final sentence is "Other historians have speculated that Claudius may have died of natural causes.". I do not doubt that this is true, but I think we need to include a source or at least indicate which historians. As it stands, it's just a general statement which imparts little actual information. Does anyone have a reliable scholarly source to add? ‡ El cid, el campeador talk 18:26, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
I'm not good at writing Wiki style, so maybe someone else can add this:
https://iview.abc.net.au/video/NEWS2022102695158 2001:8003:E490:7D01:4CE8:C303:88CB:243A ( talk) 08:28, 6 August 2023 (UTC)