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It might be true that some sources are less reliable, but we need some evidence or argument first please as to why this might be the case so we can all be reassured and perhaps have a chance to address concerns. Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Off course there is no reason to avoid mention Ali's harem (both males and females). I understand if some users might thing that there is some kind of taboo situation on this. Alexikoua ( talk) 13:44, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
So what have we got now? A couple of second-rate authors uncritically perpetuating cheap orientalist phantasies. And editors here like Contaldo80, who will go to great lengths citing that Foss book, second hand, combining it with unashamed original-research speculation, getting its title wrong in the process, and failing to take into account the (much more reliable and much better scholarship) source from which they are actually quoting it second hand, the Fleming book, which, if you read the context, you will find is only citing Foss as a characteristic example of crap to avoid. This is close-to-blockworthy tendentious editing and falsification of sources. What a miserable show. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:39, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
(undent) What I'm arguing is that in the context of a discussion of sexual mores in Ottoman society, the only legitimate meaning of both "seraglio" and (preferably) "harem" is that of the specific Ottoman social institution ('private living quarters of female family members'), and that any source that mixes up this notion with the generic and explicitly sexual modern meaning ('multiple concubines/lovers') ipso facto disqualifies itself as a reliable source. (The issue of the neutral architectural meaning in the other paper, which is from an entirely different context, is quite unrelated to this.) The paragraph you just re-inserted is still unacceptable. I can only wonder why you can't develop at least a bit more creativity in your wording – you still have all that silliness about "seraglio", "ganymedes", "constant attendance" and whatnot in there (even with links falsely suggesting conceptual precision, which is exactly what is lacking here), as if things couldn't be worded any other way. The paragraph is also ungrammatical. And I don't accept Murray as a reliable source, for the reasons stated. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:32, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
I can't see a reason why this small section is needed. It seems completely irrelevant with the rest. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Yep. This addition has several important problems: (a) it is an undeclared literal takeover (i.e. plagiarised), (b) it is cited second-hand (ostensibly to Flemings, but in reality it's from Plomer 1970, The diamond of Jannina: Ali Pasha 1741-1822), (c) the first-hand source that is cited (Fleming) is actually quoting Plomer only in order to criticize it as unreliable/stereotyped, (d) we have no account of what primary sources Plomer is in turn based on (obviously, a physical description of an historical personality ultimately needs a primary source, as Plomer in 1970 could impossibly have known these things without one), and (e) as an encyclopedic statement in our own voice, it is overly detailed and of unencyclopedic style. We could conceivably do something like, "... he was described by contemporaries as ...", and then cite both the primary source and a reliable secondary source vetting for the representativity of that description. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:38, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Now that the sock is gone, I have removed the section, based on the above reasoning by Alexikoua and Fut. Perf. Nothing controversial there I hope. Athenean ( talk) 22:13, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
has link to one grand Vezier at the beggining of 20. century. I do not believe that Ali Pasha had son that lived so long. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 12:11, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Of course this is about another person. User:Stupidus Maximus [ [7]] before he received his sock block managed to create a mess in a number of articles, like this here. I've already reverted most of the disruption he created, but there might be some minor stuff (like this one) that should be dealed. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:56, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
I propose a merge of the above into a simple "Sources". -- Sulmues ( talk) 14:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Actually, further reading mainly consist of 19th century crap that's doesn't meet wp:rs. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps this should still be included: "In 1788 Ali Pasha's troops razed the Aromanian metropolis of Moscopole." The article on Moscopole does not mention any early 19th century attack by Ali Pasha.-- Felix Folio Secundus ( talk) 21:08, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
It would be very nice to support this article with map of territory controled by Ali Pasha.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Text of the article has lot of words that should be avoided in texts of the articles on wikipedia. Here is link to wikipedia policy about words that should be avoided and I will list below only those words that are stated in this policy, although I believe that there are more of them in the text of the article but not listed in the policy:
Peacock terms
"unpopular Ottoman Sultan Mahmud II", “Hanko a woman of extraordinary character”, “Ali became a famous brigand”, “always in the field fought for the "Sultan and Empire" with great bravery”, “famous rebel Pazvantoğlu”, “maintained close relations and corresponded with famous leaders”, “he famously proclaimed”
Weasel words
"However, this has been refuted since it was proven that his family originated from southern Albania"
Expression of doubt
"Ali allegedly ordered " -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
"Albanian ruler (pasha) of the western part of Rumelia,"
There are several things that should be considered when taking in consideration above mentioned part of first sentence:
I propose to make lede similar to Catherine II of Russia, that is obviously without insisting on her being German leader or Russian leader... but simply stating the facts about her ethnic origin and position.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Ali Pasha Tepelena was Albanian and he was the most powerful ruler of the western part of Rumelia, not that he ruled Albanians also.
He ruled from Berat till the south of Peloponnese, which included many non-Albanians also. He didn't rule only in Yanina, but a much larger territory.
The region of Epirus, was in havy majoryt albanian speaking and not greek speaking, get your facts right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.73.141.172 ( talk) 10:50, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. If the page is to move, there is no consensus on the most appropriate target, and the argument that this Ali Pasha is not the primary topic is unconvincing when this article is the longest and most visited (16000 a month compared to a 1000 times or less) of the articles at the disambiguation page. DrKiernan ( talk) 19:14, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Ali Pasha → Tepedelenli Ali Pasha – (see talk page) Relisted. BDD ( talk) 18:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC) Filanca ( talk) 19:49, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Looking at the disambiguation page, one can see there are other Ali Pashas, also consider that the list there is rather incomplete. Although Ali Pasha of this article is one of the most famous among others, it looks like none of those are WP:PRIMARYTOPIC since none fits in the definition "much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined". Consider, for example, two Grand Viziers of the same name, who were rather higher up in the Ottoman state hierarchy and historically important. I therefore propose to make this "Ali Pasha" article the disambiguation page and move this page to...
Google results for books published after year 2000(added keyword "the" in addition to searching for books in English to be safer):
"Tepedelenli" looks like more prominent. However I am in no way sure about this, for some reason "Ali Pasha Tepelena" may be a better choice. Filanca ( talk) 19:49, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. The IP's advice was sound. -- BDD ( talk) 16:25, 14 March 2013 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
Ali Pasha → Ali Pasha of Janina – See previous request above. --Relisted. Tyrol5 [Talk] 01:57, 7 March 2013 (UTC) Filanca ( talk) 22:28, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, by far the most well known of all the Pashas named Ali. Macedonian, a Greek ( talk) 15:56, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Although there was no move request, the article has been moved contrary to the previous results of the above discussions. In case we have no proper request the previous title should stay. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:43, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
For an unexplained reasons Dakin's famous quote on Ali Pasha, was either falsified or completely removed. Although this part is already cited (by Fleming's work) it might be a good idea to provide the url her too [ [13]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 10:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
What's childish in this case is that the falsified quote found a place in the lead of the article, without an appropriate reference. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
The lead paragraph has all kinds of things wrong with it. Ali's birth date seems in fact to be unknown; at least, the sources I've looked at give widely different dates, and there should at least be a question mark after any birth date (unless some historian I haven't read has established a generally accepted birth date for him.) The rest of the information in the lead is mostly unsourced. Of the two sources given, one only mentions Ali briefly as being referred in a poem; the other is in Turkish, which I can't read, but running it through Google Translate seems to indicate that it just verifies he was an Ottoman official and had three sons. Also, the description of him as an Albanian Muslim is inaccurate: several respectable sources record his ancestry as mixed Turkish/Albanian/Other -- one source says he spoke Albanian and Greek well but Turkish poorly -- and several sources also record that one of his remarkable characteristics was that he presented himself as Moslem or Christian depending on which one happened to be more advantageous politically at the time. The whole thing needs to be redone and verified by citations. Littlewindow ( talk) 15:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
It is seems to me that in current times the spelling of the city that is the capital of Epirus is "Ioannina" and the older spellings such as Janina and Yannina have fallen into disfavor by modern scholars. "Ioannina" most closely resembles it's Greek spelling. All studies of Romaniote Jewry, which Ioannina was the epicenter of, use this spelling. 50.191.30.166 ( talk) 03:21, 19 May 2015 (UTC)buddmar
I've deleted the reference to Ali Pasha as a Sufi since it is un-sourced. I have no particular ax to grind in doing this: for all I know he may well have been a Sufi. But it should should not be so stated in the article unless verified by a reliable source. The reference at the end of the paragraph is to an on line document that is a reliable source but nowhere that I could find mentions Ali as a Sufi. Incidentally, the WP article on Bektashi Order also says that Ali was a Sufi, but it seems unsourced there too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Littlewindow ( talk • contribs) 23:33, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Supporters
Partial supporters
There is a claim by Robert Elsie according to which Ali Pasha was of Turkish origin. The source is the dictionary of The Highland Lute (Lahuta e malcís): the Albanian national epic but tertiary sources aren't allowed here. NobleFrog ( talk) 16:10, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
What makes this a tertiary? I won't have a problem to remove this, but as I know there are additional sources that confirm this. By the way, as the article states this connection is problematic. However it needs to be part of the article since mainstream bibliography mentions it. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:21, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
So the tertiary source (Elsie) isn't needed. We have Uzun who says there have been claims of an Turkish origin. NobleFrog ( talk) 08:56, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
The claim is taken from the dictionary of a book. A dictionary is a tertiary source. In addition Elsie doesn't explain anything about it, where he found that information etc. You need a better source. NobleFrog ( talk) 15:30, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
I see some discussions were held, but they resulted in no clear consensus. The notion that one Ali Pasha is more important than the others is quite tenuous AFAICT, because the list of people called Ali Pasha is packed with exceedingly notable people.
I tried to corroborate the claim of primary topic but failed - I did a Google Books search for the phrase, and found numerous references both to this one and to Mohammed Ali Pasha and others right there on the first page of results. I looked for it in Britannica, and actually found no references to this one on the first page, but numerous references to the others - to an older one from the Battle of Lepanto and to the Egypt-related people. A Google Scholar search for the term gives just 2 historical references among the first 10, and neither are to this one. Only the sixth historical reference is to this one, and the rest is mostly about Egypt.
So, absent an actual fact-based consensus that this particular Ali Pasha is the primary topic for the term, I see no compelling reason to keep the status quo. Instead, the term should be disambiguated. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:01, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
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Resnjari edit warred diff and diff to remove well cited text inserted in 2012 diff.
Having in mind that this article have 95 watchers and had almost 300.000 viewers since then while the quoted text has 43 GB search hits, I believe it is necessary to reach consensus on the talkpage of this article before removal of that text.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:39, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
The article tells a story very different from that in The Balkan wars (2002) by André Gerolymatos, p. 79-81. Gerolymatos states that Euphorsyne and their female friends were actually adulter. "The outraged husbands of these new hetairai and the wives of their Muslim lovers appealed to Ali Pasha for justice", and "no one spoke out on behalf of the women", so he could not but order the killing. Is the article assuming the folk tradition as for history? As one of the versions must be wrong, Gerolymatos' should be included also. Joan Rocaguinard ( talk) 19:49, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) {{ping| ClydeFranklin}} ( t/ c) 23:24, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
This autonomous Albanian Ottoman ruler is variously known as Ali Pasha of Ioannina, Ali Pasha of Janina (or of Yanina), Ali Pasha of Tepelenë and others. Per WP:COMMONNAME: Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources). In this case those sources happen to be books, journals and website articles written by qualified historians. In the WP:RS, Ali Pasha is almost invariably used. Here is only a tiny sampling of the notable works that use the Ali Pasha rather than Ali Pasha of Ioannina/Janina/Yanina/Tepelenë etc.
Another point is that the current Ali Pasha disambiguation contains Turkish Ottoman viziers, who were just minor Ottoman statesmen and aren't very notable. A notable "Ali Pasha" is Muhammad Ali Pasha, though he is never only referred to only as "Ali Pasha" in reliable sources. Also, in the Turkish language, the "sh" is not used, rather "ş" is used and I propose that "Ali Paşa" can be a disambiguation, while "Ali Pasha" shouldn't. Also, this article had been titled "Ali Pasha" since it was created until a Turkish user Ithinkicahn disruptively moved it without any talk. There previously had been two requested moves on this talk page, both reached no consensus to move "Ali Pasha" to "Ali Pasha of Ioannina/Janina/Tepelena" etc. Marmidukay ( talk) 21:43, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
In case we need to mention that foreign Western correspondence frequently refer to the territories under Ali's control as Albania (Fleming, p. 116) we need to address that the subject population -by vast majority- belonged to a different ethnicity (Fleming, p. 157). Everything is stated on the same source. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:06, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Ali realized the centrality of geography in the communal groupings of his day. He insisted that Ioannina, in the Greek district of Epiros, was Albanian, and he viewed the Albanians who lived there not as immigrants but as indigenous inhabitants of the region.21 He attempted to justify his designs on the coastal Ionian dependencies in part by claiming that they too were part of "Albania."– Βατο ( talk) 22:05, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
"Psychologically, too, it is clear that Ali conceived of his territory in ever more independent terms. His correspondence and British correspondence refer frequently to "Albania" (namely, the territories under his control) and "Ali's Albanians." British concern over the tenuousness of their position had nothing to do with the Ottoman government but was based entirely on Ali's obvious strength and superior position. Indeed, as early as 1803 Hamilton had written to Lord Hawkesbury, the British foreign secretary, of Ali's power and influential position, observing that Ali was less needy of the Ottoman Empire than the empire was of him."– Βατο ( talk) 11:02, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
@SR: Although his subject population -the vast majority of whom were Greek- have been noted for their nationalist impulses and cultural links to Enlightenment Europe, there is little evidence that Ali conceived of his desire for independence in such terms.
Alexikoua (
talk) 03:58, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
It's completely weird and POV to begin this section by stating something about today's Albanian nationalism and removing everything about contemporary national movements. In terms of neutrality we should focus on the specific era. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
"For the history of Ali Pasha's principality, which is in reality the history of mainland Greece for the thirty critical years before 1821, is intimately connected with the rise of Greek and, to a much lesser extent, Albanian nationalism."obviously can't be included. This claim
"which is in reality the history of mainland Greece for the thirty critical years before 1821"is completely erroneous, it ignores that half of the territory of the Pashalik was in Albania, and that the autonomous state was actually called "Albania" by Ali himself. Your POV pushing editing is highly unconstructive. – Βατο ( talk) 17:30, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Ali's rule coincided with the culmination of the national Greek revolution not the Albanian one.Ali did not care about Greek national causes. He killed and plundered every Greek who could hurt his interest. Is that a "contribution" to Greek "nationalism"? The Greek "revolution" happened primarily because the Ottoman Army was busy and damaged fighting Ali, and after his death many of his bandits who until then had killed and robbed Greeks went to fight for the "liberation" of Greece for personal profit (Androutsos etc).
Ali never built a single Albanian school or contributed to any Albanian language institution. Albanian nationalism culminated at a later stage.Yes, because Ali did not care about Albanian national causes. Ali was a local criminal, not a patriotic benefactor. The " Albanian Pashaliks" could have joined forces together and created an autonomous Albanian state in the late 18th or early 19th century, but they did not because their goals were personal profit. A pasha was far from being a nationalist. Albanians had the opportunity to form their state before Greeks and Slavs, but did not do that because their "elite" consisted mostly of people who did not care about "nationalism" and gained from the Ottoman rule in a way or another. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 19:57, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
"[Ali's] colourful career belongs to Greek as well as to Turkish history. His court was Greek and had been the centre of a Greek renaissance."Such biased opinions from old scholarship are to be avoided. – Βατο ( talk) 13:11, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
"[Ali's] colourful career belongs to Greek as well as to Turkish history.", not even mentioning the crucial Albanian element, can't be included as quotes into the main text of the article. – Βατο ( talk) 17:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Obviously the military operations of 1820-22 belong to downfall section: regardless if the are joined by Greek revolutionaries or not they were armed operations where troops loyal to Ali Pasha participated. Alexikoua ( talk) 04:47, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Can anyone give the relevant quote from the source this is based on?
Ktrimi991 (
talk) 21:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
It is in the Coordinated "Greek-Albanian" operations subsection.
Ktrimi991 (
talk) 22:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Οι διαπραγματεύσεις οδηγούν σε υπογραφή ένορκης συμφωνίας από Ακαρνάνες οπλαρχηγούς, Αλβανούς και Σουλιώτες για την απελευθέρωση του Αλή (1/13 Σεπτεμβρίου 1821)51 . Καρπός της συμφωνίας είναι η εκστρατεία για την κατάληψη της Άρτας. Ο στόχος δεν επιτεύχθηκε καθώς οι σύμμαχοι, ιδίως οι Σουλιώτες και οι Ακαρνάνες, επιδόθηκαν σε λεηλασίες (trans: The goal was not achieved as the allies, especially the Souliotes and the Akarnanes, indulged in looting, while after the looting they left), ενώ μετά τη λαφυραγώγηση αποχώρησαν32 . Η συμμαχία διαλύθηκε. Δεν έχουν διερευνηθεί με επάρκεια τα αίτια.
During this event some of the Greek bands, especially Acarnanians as well as Souliotes. And he then falsely stated that he did not, by providing a diff which actually is Ktrimi's clarification ( [24]). Skoulidas (2001) did not support it, but even if he did, as I already stated, it would have been ahistorical and removed. I will add the relevant information about Acarnanians and Souliotes. Alexikoua misused the sources, if he is going to do it again, he'd better avoid editing this article. – Βατο ( talk) 08:04, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Don't put words in my mouthI did not, I just reported your edits and your false argument. As for your comment about BLP, I suggest to familiarize with that policy because it is not like you think. Selecting sources with extraordinary claims to add ahistorical narratives in the article should be avoided. But Skoulidas did not support your ahistorical POV pushing narrative. On the other hand, you disruptively misused sources. Noticing and discussing it is not a WP:PA, but a fact for which there is evidence, and which highly needed to be corrected. You inserted again the information after the sentence about the Greek bands, which results in displaying the same narrative, I moved it into a part where it is not misleading. – Βατο ( talk) 08:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ali Pasha of Ioannina article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | On 8 April 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Ali Pasha. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
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It might be true that some sources are less reliable, but we need some evidence or argument first please as to why this might be the case so we can all be reassured and perhaps have a chance to address concerns. Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Off course there is no reason to avoid mention Ali's harem (both males and females). I understand if some users might thing that there is some kind of taboo situation on this. Alexikoua ( talk) 13:44, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
So what have we got now? A couple of second-rate authors uncritically perpetuating cheap orientalist phantasies. And editors here like Contaldo80, who will go to great lengths citing that Foss book, second hand, combining it with unashamed original-research speculation, getting its title wrong in the process, and failing to take into account the (much more reliable and much better scholarship) source from which they are actually quoting it second hand, the Fleming book, which, if you read the context, you will find is only citing Foss as a characteristic example of crap to avoid. This is close-to-blockworthy tendentious editing and falsification of sources. What a miserable show. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:39, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
(undent) What I'm arguing is that in the context of a discussion of sexual mores in Ottoman society, the only legitimate meaning of both "seraglio" and (preferably) "harem" is that of the specific Ottoman social institution ('private living quarters of female family members'), and that any source that mixes up this notion with the generic and explicitly sexual modern meaning ('multiple concubines/lovers') ipso facto disqualifies itself as a reliable source. (The issue of the neutral architectural meaning in the other paper, which is from an entirely different context, is quite unrelated to this.) The paragraph you just re-inserted is still unacceptable. I can only wonder why you can't develop at least a bit more creativity in your wording – you still have all that silliness about "seraglio", "ganymedes", "constant attendance" and whatnot in there (even with links falsely suggesting conceptual precision, which is exactly what is lacking here), as if things couldn't be worded any other way. The paragraph is also ungrammatical. And I don't accept Murray as a reliable source, for the reasons stated. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:32, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
I can't see a reason why this small section is needed. It seems completely irrelevant with the rest. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Yep. This addition has several important problems: (a) it is an undeclared literal takeover (i.e. plagiarised), (b) it is cited second-hand (ostensibly to Flemings, but in reality it's from Plomer 1970, The diamond of Jannina: Ali Pasha 1741-1822), (c) the first-hand source that is cited (Fleming) is actually quoting Plomer only in order to criticize it as unreliable/stereotyped, (d) we have no account of what primary sources Plomer is in turn based on (obviously, a physical description of an historical personality ultimately needs a primary source, as Plomer in 1970 could impossibly have known these things without one), and (e) as an encyclopedic statement in our own voice, it is overly detailed and of unencyclopedic style. We could conceivably do something like, "... he was described by contemporaries as ...", and then cite both the primary source and a reliable secondary source vetting for the representativity of that description. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:38, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Now that the sock is gone, I have removed the section, based on the above reasoning by Alexikoua and Fut. Perf. Nothing controversial there I hope. Athenean ( talk) 22:13, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
has link to one grand Vezier at the beggining of 20. century. I do not believe that Ali Pasha had son that lived so long. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 12:11, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Of course this is about another person. User:Stupidus Maximus [ [7]] before he received his sock block managed to create a mess in a number of articles, like this here. I've already reverted most of the disruption he created, but there might be some minor stuff (like this one) that should be dealed. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:56, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
I propose a merge of the above into a simple "Sources". -- Sulmues ( talk) 14:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Actually, further reading mainly consist of 19th century crap that's doesn't meet wp:rs. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps this should still be included: "In 1788 Ali Pasha's troops razed the Aromanian metropolis of Moscopole." The article on Moscopole does not mention any early 19th century attack by Ali Pasha.-- Felix Folio Secundus ( talk) 21:08, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
It would be very nice to support this article with map of territory controled by Ali Pasha.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Text of the article has lot of words that should be avoided in texts of the articles on wikipedia. Here is link to wikipedia policy about words that should be avoided and I will list below only those words that are stated in this policy, although I believe that there are more of them in the text of the article but not listed in the policy:
Peacock terms
"unpopular Ottoman Sultan Mahmud II", “Hanko a woman of extraordinary character”, “Ali became a famous brigand”, “always in the field fought for the "Sultan and Empire" with great bravery”, “famous rebel Pazvantoğlu”, “maintained close relations and corresponded with famous leaders”, “he famously proclaimed”
Weasel words
"However, this has been refuted since it was proven that his family originated from southern Albania"
Expression of doubt
"Ali allegedly ordered " -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
"Albanian ruler (pasha) of the western part of Rumelia,"
There are several things that should be considered when taking in consideration above mentioned part of first sentence:
I propose to make lede similar to Catherine II of Russia, that is obviously without insisting on her being German leader or Russian leader... but simply stating the facts about her ethnic origin and position.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Ali Pasha Tepelena was Albanian and he was the most powerful ruler of the western part of Rumelia, not that he ruled Albanians also.
He ruled from Berat till the south of Peloponnese, which included many non-Albanians also. He didn't rule only in Yanina, but a much larger territory.
The region of Epirus, was in havy majoryt albanian speaking and not greek speaking, get your facts right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.73.141.172 ( talk) 10:50, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. If the page is to move, there is no consensus on the most appropriate target, and the argument that this Ali Pasha is not the primary topic is unconvincing when this article is the longest and most visited (16000 a month compared to a 1000 times or less) of the articles at the disambiguation page. DrKiernan ( talk) 19:14, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Ali Pasha → Tepedelenli Ali Pasha – (see talk page) Relisted. BDD ( talk) 18:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC) Filanca ( talk) 19:49, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Looking at the disambiguation page, one can see there are other Ali Pashas, also consider that the list there is rather incomplete. Although Ali Pasha of this article is one of the most famous among others, it looks like none of those are WP:PRIMARYTOPIC since none fits in the definition "much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined". Consider, for example, two Grand Viziers of the same name, who were rather higher up in the Ottoman state hierarchy and historically important. I therefore propose to make this "Ali Pasha" article the disambiguation page and move this page to...
Google results for books published after year 2000(added keyword "the" in addition to searching for books in English to be safer):
"Tepedelenli" looks like more prominent. However I am in no way sure about this, for some reason "Ali Pasha Tepelena" may be a better choice. Filanca ( talk) 19:49, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. The IP's advice was sound. -- BDD ( talk) 16:25, 14 March 2013 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
Ali Pasha → Ali Pasha of Janina – See previous request above. --Relisted. Tyrol5 [Talk] 01:57, 7 March 2013 (UTC) Filanca ( talk) 22:28, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, by far the most well known of all the Pashas named Ali. Macedonian, a Greek ( talk) 15:56, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Although there was no move request, the article has been moved contrary to the previous results of the above discussions. In case we have no proper request the previous title should stay. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:43, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
For an unexplained reasons Dakin's famous quote on Ali Pasha, was either falsified or completely removed. Although this part is already cited (by Fleming's work) it might be a good idea to provide the url her too [ [13]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 10:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
What's childish in this case is that the falsified quote found a place in the lead of the article, without an appropriate reference. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
The lead paragraph has all kinds of things wrong with it. Ali's birth date seems in fact to be unknown; at least, the sources I've looked at give widely different dates, and there should at least be a question mark after any birth date (unless some historian I haven't read has established a generally accepted birth date for him.) The rest of the information in the lead is mostly unsourced. Of the two sources given, one only mentions Ali briefly as being referred in a poem; the other is in Turkish, which I can't read, but running it through Google Translate seems to indicate that it just verifies he was an Ottoman official and had three sons. Also, the description of him as an Albanian Muslim is inaccurate: several respectable sources record his ancestry as mixed Turkish/Albanian/Other -- one source says he spoke Albanian and Greek well but Turkish poorly -- and several sources also record that one of his remarkable characteristics was that he presented himself as Moslem or Christian depending on which one happened to be more advantageous politically at the time. The whole thing needs to be redone and verified by citations. Littlewindow ( talk) 15:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
It is seems to me that in current times the spelling of the city that is the capital of Epirus is "Ioannina" and the older spellings such as Janina and Yannina have fallen into disfavor by modern scholars. "Ioannina" most closely resembles it's Greek spelling. All studies of Romaniote Jewry, which Ioannina was the epicenter of, use this spelling. 50.191.30.166 ( talk) 03:21, 19 May 2015 (UTC)buddmar
I've deleted the reference to Ali Pasha as a Sufi since it is un-sourced. I have no particular ax to grind in doing this: for all I know he may well have been a Sufi. But it should should not be so stated in the article unless verified by a reliable source. The reference at the end of the paragraph is to an on line document that is a reliable source but nowhere that I could find mentions Ali as a Sufi. Incidentally, the WP article on Bektashi Order also says that Ali was a Sufi, but it seems unsourced there too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Littlewindow ( talk • contribs) 23:33, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Supporters
Partial supporters
There is a claim by Robert Elsie according to which Ali Pasha was of Turkish origin. The source is the dictionary of The Highland Lute (Lahuta e malcís): the Albanian national epic but tertiary sources aren't allowed here. NobleFrog ( talk) 16:10, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
What makes this a tertiary? I won't have a problem to remove this, but as I know there are additional sources that confirm this. By the way, as the article states this connection is problematic. However it needs to be part of the article since mainstream bibliography mentions it. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:21, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
So the tertiary source (Elsie) isn't needed. We have Uzun who says there have been claims of an Turkish origin. NobleFrog ( talk) 08:56, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
The claim is taken from the dictionary of a book. A dictionary is a tertiary source. In addition Elsie doesn't explain anything about it, where he found that information etc. You need a better source. NobleFrog ( talk) 15:30, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
I see some discussions were held, but they resulted in no clear consensus. The notion that one Ali Pasha is more important than the others is quite tenuous AFAICT, because the list of people called Ali Pasha is packed with exceedingly notable people.
I tried to corroborate the claim of primary topic but failed - I did a Google Books search for the phrase, and found numerous references both to this one and to Mohammed Ali Pasha and others right there on the first page of results. I looked for it in Britannica, and actually found no references to this one on the first page, but numerous references to the others - to an older one from the Battle of Lepanto and to the Egypt-related people. A Google Scholar search for the term gives just 2 historical references among the first 10, and neither are to this one. Only the sixth historical reference is to this one, and the rest is mostly about Egypt.
So, absent an actual fact-based consensus that this particular Ali Pasha is the primary topic for the term, I see no compelling reason to keep the status quo. Instead, the term should be disambiguated. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:01, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
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Resnjari edit warred diff and diff to remove well cited text inserted in 2012 diff.
Having in mind that this article have 95 watchers and had almost 300.000 viewers since then while the quoted text has 43 GB search hits, I believe it is necessary to reach consensus on the talkpage of this article before removal of that text.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:39, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
The article tells a story very different from that in The Balkan wars (2002) by André Gerolymatos, p. 79-81. Gerolymatos states that Euphorsyne and their female friends were actually adulter. "The outraged husbands of these new hetairai and the wives of their Muslim lovers appealed to Ali Pasha for justice", and "no one spoke out on behalf of the women", so he could not but order the killing. Is the article assuming the folk tradition as for history? As one of the versions must be wrong, Gerolymatos' should be included also. Joan Rocaguinard ( talk) 19:49, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) {{ping| ClydeFranklin}} ( t/ c) 23:24, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
This autonomous Albanian Ottoman ruler is variously known as Ali Pasha of Ioannina, Ali Pasha of Janina (or of Yanina), Ali Pasha of Tepelenë and others. Per WP:COMMONNAME: Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources). In this case those sources happen to be books, journals and website articles written by qualified historians. In the WP:RS, Ali Pasha is almost invariably used. Here is only a tiny sampling of the notable works that use the Ali Pasha rather than Ali Pasha of Ioannina/Janina/Yanina/Tepelenë etc.
Another point is that the current Ali Pasha disambiguation contains Turkish Ottoman viziers, who were just minor Ottoman statesmen and aren't very notable. A notable "Ali Pasha" is Muhammad Ali Pasha, though he is never only referred to only as "Ali Pasha" in reliable sources. Also, in the Turkish language, the "sh" is not used, rather "ş" is used and I propose that "Ali Paşa" can be a disambiguation, while "Ali Pasha" shouldn't. Also, this article had been titled "Ali Pasha" since it was created until a Turkish user Ithinkicahn disruptively moved it without any talk. There previously had been two requested moves on this talk page, both reached no consensus to move "Ali Pasha" to "Ali Pasha of Ioannina/Janina/Tepelena" etc. Marmidukay ( talk) 21:43, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
In case we need to mention that foreign Western correspondence frequently refer to the territories under Ali's control as Albania (Fleming, p. 116) we need to address that the subject population -by vast majority- belonged to a different ethnicity (Fleming, p. 157). Everything is stated on the same source. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:06, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Ali realized the centrality of geography in the communal groupings of his day. He insisted that Ioannina, in the Greek district of Epiros, was Albanian, and he viewed the Albanians who lived there not as immigrants but as indigenous inhabitants of the region.21 He attempted to justify his designs on the coastal Ionian dependencies in part by claiming that they too were part of "Albania."– Βατο ( talk) 22:05, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
"Psychologically, too, it is clear that Ali conceived of his territory in ever more independent terms. His correspondence and British correspondence refer frequently to "Albania" (namely, the territories under his control) and "Ali's Albanians." British concern over the tenuousness of their position had nothing to do with the Ottoman government but was based entirely on Ali's obvious strength and superior position. Indeed, as early as 1803 Hamilton had written to Lord Hawkesbury, the British foreign secretary, of Ali's power and influential position, observing that Ali was less needy of the Ottoman Empire than the empire was of him."– Βατο ( talk) 11:02, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
@SR: Although his subject population -the vast majority of whom were Greek- have been noted for their nationalist impulses and cultural links to Enlightenment Europe, there is little evidence that Ali conceived of his desire for independence in such terms.
Alexikoua (
talk) 03:58, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
It's completely weird and POV to begin this section by stating something about today's Albanian nationalism and removing everything about contemporary national movements. In terms of neutrality we should focus on the specific era. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
"For the history of Ali Pasha's principality, which is in reality the history of mainland Greece for the thirty critical years before 1821, is intimately connected with the rise of Greek and, to a much lesser extent, Albanian nationalism."obviously can't be included. This claim
"which is in reality the history of mainland Greece for the thirty critical years before 1821"is completely erroneous, it ignores that half of the territory of the Pashalik was in Albania, and that the autonomous state was actually called "Albania" by Ali himself. Your POV pushing editing is highly unconstructive. – Βατο ( talk) 17:30, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Ali's rule coincided with the culmination of the national Greek revolution not the Albanian one.Ali did not care about Greek national causes. He killed and plundered every Greek who could hurt his interest. Is that a "contribution" to Greek "nationalism"? The Greek "revolution" happened primarily because the Ottoman Army was busy and damaged fighting Ali, and after his death many of his bandits who until then had killed and robbed Greeks went to fight for the "liberation" of Greece for personal profit (Androutsos etc).
Ali never built a single Albanian school or contributed to any Albanian language institution. Albanian nationalism culminated at a later stage.Yes, because Ali did not care about Albanian national causes. Ali was a local criminal, not a patriotic benefactor. The " Albanian Pashaliks" could have joined forces together and created an autonomous Albanian state in the late 18th or early 19th century, but they did not because their goals were personal profit. A pasha was far from being a nationalist. Albanians had the opportunity to form their state before Greeks and Slavs, but did not do that because their "elite" consisted mostly of people who did not care about "nationalism" and gained from the Ottoman rule in a way or another. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 19:57, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
"[Ali's] colourful career belongs to Greek as well as to Turkish history. His court was Greek and had been the centre of a Greek renaissance."Such biased opinions from old scholarship are to be avoided. – Βατο ( talk) 13:11, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
"[Ali's] colourful career belongs to Greek as well as to Turkish history.", not even mentioning the crucial Albanian element, can't be included as quotes into the main text of the article. – Βατο ( talk) 17:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Obviously the military operations of 1820-22 belong to downfall section: regardless if the are joined by Greek revolutionaries or not they were armed operations where troops loyal to Ali Pasha participated. Alexikoua ( talk) 04:47, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Can anyone give the relevant quote from the source this is based on?
Ktrimi991 (
talk) 21:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
It is in the Coordinated "Greek-Albanian" operations subsection.
Ktrimi991 (
talk) 22:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Οι διαπραγματεύσεις οδηγούν σε υπογραφή ένορκης συμφωνίας από Ακαρνάνες οπλαρχηγούς, Αλβανούς και Σουλιώτες για την απελευθέρωση του Αλή (1/13 Σεπτεμβρίου 1821)51 . Καρπός της συμφωνίας είναι η εκστρατεία για την κατάληψη της Άρτας. Ο στόχος δεν επιτεύχθηκε καθώς οι σύμμαχοι, ιδίως οι Σουλιώτες και οι Ακαρνάνες, επιδόθηκαν σε λεηλασίες (trans: The goal was not achieved as the allies, especially the Souliotes and the Akarnanes, indulged in looting, while after the looting they left), ενώ μετά τη λαφυραγώγηση αποχώρησαν32 . Η συμμαχία διαλύθηκε. Δεν έχουν διερευνηθεί με επάρκεια τα αίτια.
During this event some of the Greek bands, especially Acarnanians as well as Souliotes. And he then falsely stated that he did not, by providing a diff which actually is Ktrimi's clarification ( [24]). Skoulidas (2001) did not support it, but even if he did, as I already stated, it would have been ahistorical and removed. I will add the relevant information about Acarnanians and Souliotes. Alexikoua misused the sources, if he is going to do it again, he'd better avoid editing this article. – Βατο ( talk) 08:04, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Don't put words in my mouthI did not, I just reported your edits and your false argument. As for your comment about BLP, I suggest to familiarize with that policy because it is not like you think. Selecting sources with extraordinary claims to add ahistorical narratives in the article should be avoided. But Skoulidas did not support your ahistorical POV pushing narrative. On the other hand, you disruptively misused sources. Noticing and discussing it is not a WP:PA, but a fact for which there is evidence, and which highly needed to be corrected. You inserted again the information after the sentence about the Greek bands, which results in displaying the same narrative, I moved it into a part where it is not misleading. – Βατο ( talk) 08:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)