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After "...this may have been one of the reasons why Tennyson was so late in marrying." I am cutting out "Or it could be because he was still lamenting the loss of his true love, Hallam. (Note that he never wrote an epic about his wife.)" This seems rather speculative, and the logic is faulty. If he had outlived his wife, perhaps he would have spent 17 years writing a poem for her also. We'll never know... 24.23.141.156 03:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In the article for “ The Dying Swan,” there is a full listing of the poem. I’ve marked it as a candidate for inclusion in Wikisource, but since I’ve never done anything with Wikisource before, I’m mentioning it here to get some more eyes on it before I do anything drastic. Advice is welcome. -- Rob Kennedy 03:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
This should certainly be the Poet Laureate; a Poet Laureate makes it sound as if there is more than one at the same time! For the sake of peace I have edited it back to just 'Poet Laureate'; common usage.
-- Waring 07:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Referring to Tennyson as "Poet Laureate" is rather suggestive that he was the only person ever to have that distinction, or who has it now! Emended to give his dates, and the date of his appointment as laureate. Fixlein ( talk) 16:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The link for Elizabeth Clayton is obviously wrong as it links to a modern businesswoman, not an ancestor of Tennyson. Dudleymiles ( talk) 10:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
This article states Lord Tennyson is the second most quoted person in the English language after Shakespeare. The Dr. Johnson article says he is the most frequently quoted person in the English language. I don't know if this matters, as both facts are cited, and Wikipedia holds that they are thus both true. I would like to point out, however, that I could also cite from a logic textbook that (A • ~A) is a logical contradiction; as well, it is unencyclopedic (as no 'professional' encyclopedia would allow a blatant contradiction between two articles). I am not sure how to resolve this dispute; any ideas? Chris b shanks ( talk) 19:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Edison made a handful of recordings of Tennyson reciting his own poetry. I think it would be an invaluable addition to this article if we could provide some links to some samples of these recordings. Can anyone help with this? 76.117.2.182 ( talk) 06:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if you can have recordings of Tennyson on wikipedia even if over 100 years old because the remastering itself would be more recent and so there could be copyright issues. The above comment about Tennyson and Hallam is in the wrong section by the way. 155.247.166.29 ( talk) 22:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Surely The Charge of the Light Brigade is Tennyson's most famous poem? Even on an academic level In Memoriam is more famous. Idylls of the King could only possibly be recognised as such in terms of length; certainly not in terms of quality or fame.-- Waring 07:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
-- Waring 07:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Yep, it's a misleading statement. Tennyson has plenty of famous poems to his name. Maybe somebody should just cut it out.
I agree. There are quite a lot more note-worthy poems. I don't know if I'm allowed to alter the article but I would recommend the inclusion of a handful of poems (e.g. "Ulysses" and "Tithonus") in the first paragraph. EmilyWien ( talk) 05:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I feel as if I read somewhere that Alfred Tennyson was reluctant to take on the laureateship and in fact turned it down a few times and had to be convinced before he finally accepted it. Is there any truth to this? I can see his reasons for turning it down. He's really private and shy and being poet laureate makes you the most famous poet in the country. His poetry after he got the laureateship isn't as good as before.
I'm pretty sure he did turn down the baronetcy several times before finally accepting it. It probably means he has to sit in the House of Lords which a shy man like him wouldn't want to. So I can see him doing the same with the laureateship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WillofWorchester ( talk • contribs) 17:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The lay of shallot is an amazing poem it has a great tone of mood and tone and has a very creative way of words! It is very moving including the way The lady of Shallot dies a sad death of having a curse which she breaks and she then dies in lancelots arms although there are 2 versions both by Tennyson but it is said that before that someone ese ad written a poem called the lady of shallot and that is what he based it on —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.135.122 ( talk) 15:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
i agree it's a killer poem. i really like both the rhythm of the poem too. the poem can be interpreted in so many different ways. that's how you can tell how great a poem is, when there is no one simple clear interpretation. the lay of shallot is totally one of them.
there are a tonne of awesome pre-raphaelite paintings that are entirely based on the lay of shallot poem by alfred tennyson. there are at least four of them by john williman waterhouse and another by william holman hunt which is also excellent. you should take a look at them.
Whoops!!! I forgot my signature.-- Heretodae ( talk) 22:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
i just want to add. for those who don't know this poem or if you aren't familiar with it. here's an very brief paragraph on it that i took from the lay of shallot page.
The Lady of Shalott" is a Victorian poem by the English poet Alfred, Lord Tennyson (1809–1892). Like other early poems— "Sir Lancelot and Queen Guinevere," and "Galahad"— the poem recasts Arthurian subject matter loosely based on medieval sources and takes up some themes that would become more fully realized in Idylls of the King where the tale of Elaine is recounted.[1] Contents
Waterhouse's The Lady of Shalott Looking at Lancelot
Tennyson wrote two versions of the poem, one published in 1833, of twenty stanzas, the other in 1842 of nineteen stanzas. It was loosely based on the Arthurian legend of Elaine of Astolat, as recounted in a thirteenth-century Italian novella entitled Donna di Scalotta (No. lxxxi in the collection Cento Novelle Antiche), with the earlier version being closer to the source material than the later.[2] Tennyson focused on the Lady's "isolation in the tower and her decision to participate in the living world, two subjects not even mentioned in Donna di Scalotta."[1]
"In a more general sense, it is fair to say that the pre-Raphaelite fascination with Arthuriana is traceable to Tennyson's work" (Zanzucchi). Tennyson's biographer Leonée Ormonde finds the Arthurian material is "introduced as a valid setting for the study of the artist and the dangers of personal isolation".
Some consider "The Lady of Shalott" to be representative of the dilemma that faces artists, writers, and musicians: to create work about and celebrating the world, or to enjoy the world by simply living in it. Others see the poem as concerned with issues of women's sexuality and their place in the Victorian world. The fact that the poem works through such complex and polyvalent symbolism indicates an important difference between Tennyson's work and his Arthurian source material. While Tennyson's sources tended to work through allegory, Tennyson himself did not.
-- Heretodae ( talk) 22:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
After seeing Jordie's addition, I don't see any problems except that it was unsourced. Why was it just removed? Ottava Rima ( talk) 16:31, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
The reversion was right. The comments were in the wrong place - messed up the introduction and repeated a lot of what had already been said in the article. Some of the mentail illness stuff I agree is of interest but needs to be properly put into the article and sourced. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
No, the onus is on the person who makes the contribution. It would not be fair to expect someone else to sift the material and decide what was right to stay and decide where. A lot of it repeated what was already there. Contaldo80 ( talk) 17:03, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I think you're argumentative for the sake of it. And can I remind you that it wasn't I that reverted anything on the basis of my 'say so'. The addition was rubbish, it was in the wrong place, and it repeated what was in the rest of the article. Perhaps you should leave that to sink in before you post yet again with your thoughts. Individuals should make constructive additions to an article rather than dump what's in their head at the time. The onus is on the individual to contribute in a constructive way. There was nothing constuctive about that - parts of it didn't even make sense. If you think it was so great then why don't you yourself put the right bits in the right places. Contaldo80 ( talk) 13:53, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Recently the file File:Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson by George Frederic Watts.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 04:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Lincolnshire will be celebrating with events up and down the county. On 16-20 July, the Tennyson Society will be holding its bicentenary conference at the University of Lincoln. Tel (UK) 01522 886407 if anyone is interested.
Of note is that the Tennyson Research Centre, run by the council at Lincoln Central Library, has the worlds largest collection of Tennyson items and is open all year round.-- BSTemple ( talk) 16:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi I need to write a final paper for my English class on this poem by Alfred Tennyson called Maud. I'm feeling very lost and I don't know where to begin. My prof says the poem Maud was a semi-autobiograpic poem but I don't know anything about Alfred Tennyson so that doesn't help me any. I don't want to ask for someone to write my paper for me but I'd like any kind of help would be really awesome. If you can lead me in a direction and give me some pointers or what to look out for. I need to have a 7 to 10 page paper double spaced by Thursday. Here's the poem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SceneandHeard ( talk • contribs) 05:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
<<Note: (Poem was given and has been removed due to space)-- BSTemple ( talk) 16:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)>>
I totally forgot all about this after I posted my message. Heh! You guys were absolutely not help at all so it makes no difference. I wasn't asking you to do my work for me if you read my message above. I was asking for some pointers in the right direction was all. I think that's pretty ligit. And Etcetera, you grouch, if you really are a high school teacher, you can't be so naive to think your students don't regularly pull out a term paper in the couple days before its due do you? Hell, most people I know do it all the time and get by. I didn't need any of your help after all cuz my friends were much nicer and helped me out where to look. I didn't get much sleep those two days but I still got a b+ in the end which was pretty good considering where I was starting at! —Preceding unsigned comment added by SceneandHeard ( talk • contribs) 13:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Should the page not be titled in the format used for other peers, namely: Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson? -- Lord Emsworth 22:47, Dec 17, 2003 (UTC)
I would argue that Alfred is an exception to that rule. He is *always* called Alfred Lord Tennyson, so it makes sense to locate the article here. I suggest making Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson a redirect -- Raul654 23:43, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
But, if Alfred Tennyson is always Alfred, Lord Tennyson, why is the page at Alfred Tennyson rather than Alfred, Lord Tennyson? -- Lord Emsworth 11:27, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)
Good point - if I had to do it, I would have done it that way. Obviously, someone else did it differently. The arguement is academic though - both of those pages ( Alfred, Lord Tennyson and Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson) are redirects, so it really makes no difference. -- Raul654 13:01, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The modern tendency to credit all his works to "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" notwithstanding, he wrote most of them when he was just plain Alfred Tennyson. About the only really famous thing he wrote after he became Baron Tennyson was "Crossing the Bar". I don't know that that's why this article is Alfred Tennyson, but it seems a plausible explanation. — Paul A 02:31, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The Wikipedia standard is to exclude official, aristocratic and reverential titles from pages names; for example: King George I of Great Britain, Saint Francis of Assisi, President George W. Bush and so on. I am therefor moving this page back to Alfred Tennyson. - (unsigned)
It is not practice to exclude aristocratic titles: note all the articles on hereditary peers. Some time ago, there was a poll done, which determines that peerage titles should generally be included, unless they are almost never used (e.g. Robert Walpole). -- Emsworth 01:08, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
Whatever the title, it is absurd that the article contains no reference to the name by which most readers know him, nor any explanation of why a different one is used here. 97.96.160.215 ( talk) 00:40, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was moved GrooveDog FOREVER 01:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson →
Alfred, Lord Tennyson — As stated in the article's own lede, Tennyson is "much better known as 'Alfred, Lord Tennyson,'" so that's where the article should be under our
"use common names" guideline. This is also in line with
WP:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#British_peerage, which says "When individuals inherited or were created peers but are best known to history by a courtesy title use that. Examples:
Frederick North, Lord North (not 'Frederick North, 2nd Earl of Guilford'), Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh (not 'Robert Stewart, 2nd Marquess of Londonderry')." The new title is thus perfectly in line with both WP:UCN and WP:NCROY.
Powers
T 15:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Collapsing lengthy discussion for readability
|
---|
|
Comment I've been asked to weigh in here (as a veteran of some contentious name changes on other pages). Let me point out some issues here:
"Reference works. Check other encyclopedias. If there is general agreement on the use of a name (as there often will be), that is usually a good sign of the name being the preferred term in English."
Tennyson, Alfred, first Baron Tennyson (1809–1892), poet, was born on 6 August 1809 at Somersby rectory, Lincolnshire, the fourth child ...
(unindent) Hi Philip, I did make a mistake in quoting Oxford DNB. (For some reason that day, I couldn't access DNB; after emailing them about why my password was not working, I searched the web and happened upon this, which in my hurry, I construed (from its "Further reading") to have the impramatur of DNB.) OK, I'll grant you one more for Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron .... but my point remains, tertiary sources, especially "encyclopedias" (rather than thinking men's Whos' Whos, such as ODNB), are almost completely unanimous in having their page names either "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" (with 636 links) or "Alfred Tennyson" unadorned (603 links), the latter includes roughly 50% references to Tennyson in other pages, rather than the page names themselves. In contrast, there are a mere 8 for "Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson" OR "Alfred Tennyson, Baron Tennyson" OR "Alfred Tennyson, first Baron Tennyson" (now 9 with DNB). Its really "no contest." It was on the basis of tertiary precedent that the Wikipedia page "Mahatma Gandhi" was changed to Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, all other arguments never went anywhere. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind what other encyclopedias have as primary page name. It is neither Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson, nor Alfred Tennyson, Baron Tennyson. Whether or not you want to give that statistic any weight is your prerogative, but there is no doubting its accuracy. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Does Benjamin Disraeli (author of Vivian Grey, Coningsby, etc, and created Earl of Beaconsfield in 1876, eight years before Tennyson was created a Baron) not count? Or does the article mean "first English writer raised to the peerage for being a writer"? Opera hat ( talk) 18:40, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
It's too late to do much of anything, but I have very mixed feelings about this move. On the one hand, it's certainly true that this is the name under which his work is most often published (although certainly not the name under which his work was most often published in his lifetime, since he only became a peer in the last decade of his rather long life, after virtually all of his important work had already been published (except for the end of Idylls of the King, apparently). On the other hand, it's a form that we don't use for any other articles on peers - we never omit the surname in article titles, even when it is the same as the peerage title. Furthermore, we never use the form "Lord X" for substantive peers - we always include the ordinal and the proper peerage rank. ( Frederick North, Lord North is a different case, where we are using the courtesy title he bore for most of his life instead of the substantive title he bore for only a year). I agree that Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson was an awkward and unattractive title. All the options have some flaws, but I think that by some margin the best solution would probably have been a move to Alfred Tennyson. This was the name he bore for his first 75 years, and there is considerable precedent for simply ignoring peerage titles on occasion (see Francis Bacon, Benjamin Disraeli, and Bertrand Russell for older, contemporary, and newer examples of this). I would also note that the appeal to Britannica for supposeldy having its article at "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" is just completely wrong. The general google search seems to suggest that's what the article says, but if you get access to the actual Britannica, the article is actually at "Tennyson (of Aldworth and Freshwater), Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron". The first line then notes "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" as a "byname", and "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" is what appears at the top of the browser, but the article itself is rather clearly titled more or less the same way as this article used to be. john k ( talk) 06:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I'll add that Powers's original move request shows a lack of understanding of the peerage naming conventions. In support of this move, he quotes the line When individuals inherited or were created peers but are best known to history by a courtesy title use that. But that has nothing to do with this. A courtesy title is a title held by the eldest son (or eldest son of the eldest son) of a peer, usually a junior title of the peer. So Lord North was the eldest son of the Earl of Guilford, and Lord Castlereagh the eldest son of the Marquess of Londonderry. Both succeeded to their father's title, but only in the last year of their life, and so are much better known by the courtesy title they bore for the vast majority of their life, rather than the substantive title they bore only briefly (and, in North's case, long after his days of political prominence were over). As such, we make an exception to the normal rule that peers are listed by their highest title, and list them under their courtesy title. But "Lord Tennyson" was not Tennyson's courtesy title. It was his substantive title - a less formal way of saying "Baron Tennyson". This part of naming conventions provides no support whatever for the move - it is specifically about courtesy titles, which has nothing to do with Tennyson, who had no courtesy title at any point in his life. john k ( talk) 06:17, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be a lot in here about Tennyson's artistry as a poet, which seems a pity. I offer this text for people's consideration - I'll leave it a few days and if nobody wants to tweak it I'll post it:
Tennyson used a wide range of subject-matter, ranging from mediaeval legends to classical myths and from domestic situations to observations of nature, as source material for his poetry. The influence of Keats and other Romantic poets published before and during his childhood is evident from the richness of his imagery and descriptive writing. For example, compare Now sleeps the crimson petal, now the white from The Princess with Keats' Eve of St Agnes. However, he also handled rhythm masterfully. The insistent beat of Break, Break, Break emphasises the sadness and relentlessness of the subject matter. Tennyson's use of the musical qualities of words to emphasise his rhythms and meanings is sensitive. The language of I come from haunts of coot and hern lilts and ripples like the brook in the poem and the last two lines of Come down O maid from yonder mountain height offer a most beautiful combination of onomatopoeia, alliteration and assonance:
Tennyson was a craftsman who polished and revised his manuscripts until they were perfect. Few poets have used such a wide variety of styles with such an exact understanding of metre. He reflects the Victorian period of his maturity in his feeling for order and his tendency towards moralising and self-indulgent melancholy. He also reflects a common concern among Victorian writers in being troubled by the apparent conflict between religious faith and scientific discoveries. Like many writers who write a great deal over a long time, his work is very variable in quality and he can be pompous or banal. However, the energy and beauty of his best work has ensured its survival.-- Guinevere50 16:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The statement that Tennyson's use of blank verse, "rare in its day", was due to his tone deafness suggests the author is confusing blank verse and free verse. If Tennyson couldn't hear poetic rhythms he would not have been able to write metrical poetry (which blank verse is). Besides, as others have commented, whatever his ear for music was like, his body of verse as a whole shows an incomparable ear for metre. 144.124.16.28 ( talk) 17:07, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Did Lord Tennyson suffer from temporal lobe epilepsy? Proof Reader ( talk) 01:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
See List of people with epilepsy#Misdiagnosis by association. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 14:45, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Why does a very poor reference and section which needn't be included, be allowed to ruin the whole page. Im proposing it be removed altogether as the reference and also the quotation professing homosexuality embedded within, is very sparse in connection. CorrectlyContentious 15:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
After "...this may have been one of the reasons why Tennyson was so late in marrying." I am cutting out "Or it could be because he was still lamenting the loss of his true love, Hallam. (Note that he never wrote an epic about his wife.)" This seems rather speculative, and the logic is faulty. If he had outlived his wife, perhaps he would have spent 17 years writing a poem for her also. We'll never know... 24.23.141.156 03:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In the article for “ The Dying Swan,” there is a full listing of the poem. I’ve marked it as a candidate for inclusion in Wikisource, but since I’ve never done anything with Wikisource before, I’m mentioning it here to get some more eyes on it before I do anything drastic. Advice is welcome. -- Rob Kennedy 03:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
This should certainly be the Poet Laureate; a Poet Laureate makes it sound as if there is more than one at the same time! For the sake of peace I have edited it back to just 'Poet Laureate'; common usage.
-- Waring 07:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Referring to Tennyson as "Poet Laureate" is rather suggestive that he was the only person ever to have that distinction, or who has it now! Emended to give his dates, and the date of his appointment as laureate. Fixlein ( talk) 16:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The link for Elizabeth Clayton is obviously wrong as it links to a modern businesswoman, not an ancestor of Tennyson. Dudleymiles ( talk) 10:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
This article states Lord Tennyson is the second most quoted person in the English language after Shakespeare. The Dr. Johnson article says he is the most frequently quoted person in the English language. I don't know if this matters, as both facts are cited, and Wikipedia holds that they are thus both true. I would like to point out, however, that I could also cite from a logic textbook that (A • ~A) is a logical contradiction; as well, it is unencyclopedic (as no 'professional' encyclopedia would allow a blatant contradiction between two articles). I am not sure how to resolve this dispute; any ideas? Chris b shanks ( talk) 19:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Edison made a handful of recordings of Tennyson reciting his own poetry. I think it would be an invaluable addition to this article if we could provide some links to some samples of these recordings. Can anyone help with this? 76.117.2.182 ( talk) 06:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if you can have recordings of Tennyson on wikipedia even if over 100 years old because the remastering itself would be more recent and so there could be copyright issues. The above comment about Tennyson and Hallam is in the wrong section by the way. 155.247.166.29 ( talk) 22:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Surely The Charge of the Light Brigade is Tennyson's most famous poem? Even on an academic level In Memoriam is more famous. Idylls of the King could only possibly be recognised as such in terms of length; certainly not in terms of quality or fame.-- Waring 07:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
-- Waring 07:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Yep, it's a misleading statement. Tennyson has plenty of famous poems to his name. Maybe somebody should just cut it out.
I agree. There are quite a lot more note-worthy poems. I don't know if I'm allowed to alter the article but I would recommend the inclusion of a handful of poems (e.g. "Ulysses" and "Tithonus") in the first paragraph. EmilyWien ( talk) 05:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I feel as if I read somewhere that Alfred Tennyson was reluctant to take on the laureateship and in fact turned it down a few times and had to be convinced before he finally accepted it. Is there any truth to this? I can see his reasons for turning it down. He's really private and shy and being poet laureate makes you the most famous poet in the country. His poetry after he got the laureateship isn't as good as before.
I'm pretty sure he did turn down the baronetcy several times before finally accepting it. It probably means he has to sit in the House of Lords which a shy man like him wouldn't want to. So I can see him doing the same with the laureateship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WillofWorchester ( talk • contribs) 17:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The lay of shallot is an amazing poem it has a great tone of mood and tone and has a very creative way of words! It is very moving including the way The lady of Shallot dies a sad death of having a curse which she breaks and she then dies in lancelots arms although there are 2 versions both by Tennyson but it is said that before that someone ese ad written a poem called the lady of shallot and that is what he based it on —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.135.122 ( talk) 15:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
i agree it's a killer poem. i really like both the rhythm of the poem too. the poem can be interpreted in so many different ways. that's how you can tell how great a poem is, when there is no one simple clear interpretation. the lay of shallot is totally one of them.
there are a tonne of awesome pre-raphaelite paintings that are entirely based on the lay of shallot poem by alfred tennyson. there are at least four of them by john williman waterhouse and another by william holman hunt which is also excellent. you should take a look at them.
Whoops!!! I forgot my signature.-- Heretodae ( talk) 22:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
i just want to add. for those who don't know this poem or if you aren't familiar with it. here's an very brief paragraph on it that i took from the lay of shallot page.
The Lady of Shalott" is a Victorian poem by the English poet Alfred, Lord Tennyson (1809–1892). Like other early poems— "Sir Lancelot and Queen Guinevere," and "Galahad"— the poem recasts Arthurian subject matter loosely based on medieval sources and takes up some themes that would become more fully realized in Idylls of the King where the tale of Elaine is recounted.[1] Contents
Waterhouse's The Lady of Shalott Looking at Lancelot
Tennyson wrote two versions of the poem, one published in 1833, of twenty stanzas, the other in 1842 of nineteen stanzas. It was loosely based on the Arthurian legend of Elaine of Astolat, as recounted in a thirteenth-century Italian novella entitled Donna di Scalotta (No. lxxxi in the collection Cento Novelle Antiche), with the earlier version being closer to the source material than the later.[2] Tennyson focused on the Lady's "isolation in the tower and her decision to participate in the living world, two subjects not even mentioned in Donna di Scalotta."[1]
"In a more general sense, it is fair to say that the pre-Raphaelite fascination with Arthuriana is traceable to Tennyson's work" (Zanzucchi). Tennyson's biographer Leonée Ormonde finds the Arthurian material is "introduced as a valid setting for the study of the artist and the dangers of personal isolation".
Some consider "The Lady of Shalott" to be representative of the dilemma that faces artists, writers, and musicians: to create work about and celebrating the world, or to enjoy the world by simply living in it. Others see the poem as concerned with issues of women's sexuality and their place in the Victorian world. The fact that the poem works through such complex and polyvalent symbolism indicates an important difference between Tennyson's work and his Arthurian source material. While Tennyson's sources tended to work through allegory, Tennyson himself did not.
-- Heretodae ( talk) 22:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
After seeing Jordie's addition, I don't see any problems except that it was unsourced. Why was it just removed? Ottava Rima ( talk) 16:31, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
The reversion was right. The comments were in the wrong place - messed up the introduction and repeated a lot of what had already been said in the article. Some of the mentail illness stuff I agree is of interest but needs to be properly put into the article and sourced. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
No, the onus is on the person who makes the contribution. It would not be fair to expect someone else to sift the material and decide what was right to stay and decide where. A lot of it repeated what was already there. Contaldo80 ( talk) 17:03, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I think you're argumentative for the sake of it. And can I remind you that it wasn't I that reverted anything on the basis of my 'say so'. The addition was rubbish, it was in the wrong place, and it repeated what was in the rest of the article. Perhaps you should leave that to sink in before you post yet again with your thoughts. Individuals should make constructive additions to an article rather than dump what's in their head at the time. The onus is on the individual to contribute in a constructive way. There was nothing constuctive about that - parts of it didn't even make sense. If you think it was so great then why don't you yourself put the right bits in the right places. Contaldo80 ( talk) 13:53, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Recently the file File:Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson by George Frederic Watts.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 04:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Lincolnshire will be celebrating with events up and down the county. On 16-20 July, the Tennyson Society will be holding its bicentenary conference at the University of Lincoln. Tel (UK) 01522 886407 if anyone is interested.
Of note is that the Tennyson Research Centre, run by the council at Lincoln Central Library, has the worlds largest collection of Tennyson items and is open all year round.-- BSTemple ( talk) 16:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi I need to write a final paper for my English class on this poem by Alfred Tennyson called Maud. I'm feeling very lost and I don't know where to begin. My prof says the poem Maud was a semi-autobiograpic poem but I don't know anything about Alfred Tennyson so that doesn't help me any. I don't want to ask for someone to write my paper for me but I'd like any kind of help would be really awesome. If you can lead me in a direction and give me some pointers or what to look out for. I need to have a 7 to 10 page paper double spaced by Thursday. Here's the poem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SceneandHeard ( talk • contribs) 05:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
<<Note: (Poem was given and has been removed due to space)-- BSTemple ( talk) 16:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)>>
I totally forgot all about this after I posted my message. Heh! You guys were absolutely not help at all so it makes no difference. I wasn't asking you to do my work for me if you read my message above. I was asking for some pointers in the right direction was all. I think that's pretty ligit. And Etcetera, you grouch, if you really are a high school teacher, you can't be so naive to think your students don't regularly pull out a term paper in the couple days before its due do you? Hell, most people I know do it all the time and get by. I didn't need any of your help after all cuz my friends were much nicer and helped me out where to look. I didn't get much sleep those two days but I still got a b+ in the end which was pretty good considering where I was starting at! —Preceding unsigned comment added by SceneandHeard ( talk • contribs) 13:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Should the page not be titled in the format used for other peers, namely: Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson? -- Lord Emsworth 22:47, Dec 17, 2003 (UTC)
I would argue that Alfred is an exception to that rule. He is *always* called Alfred Lord Tennyson, so it makes sense to locate the article here. I suggest making Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson a redirect -- Raul654 23:43, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
But, if Alfred Tennyson is always Alfred, Lord Tennyson, why is the page at Alfred Tennyson rather than Alfred, Lord Tennyson? -- Lord Emsworth 11:27, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)
Good point - if I had to do it, I would have done it that way. Obviously, someone else did it differently. The arguement is academic though - both of those pages ( Alfred, Lord Tennyson and Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson) are redirects, so it really makes no difference. -- Raul654 13:01, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The modern tendency to credit all his works to "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" notwithstanding, he wrote most of them when he was just plain Alfred Tennyson. About the only really famous thing he wrote after he became Baron Tennyson was "Crossing the Bar". I don't know that that's why this article is Alfred Tennyson, but it seems a plausible explanation. — Paul A 02:31, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The Wikipedia standard is to exclude official, aristocratic and reverential titles from pages names; for example: King George I of Great Britain, Saint Francis of Assisi, President George W. Bush and so on. I am therefor moving this page back to Alfred Tennyson. - (unsigned)
It is not practice to exclude aristocratic titles: note all the articles on hereditary peers. Some time ago, there was a poll done, which determines that peerage titles should generally be included, unless they are almost never used (e.g. Robert Walpole). -- Emsworth 01:08, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
Whatever the title, it is absurd that the article contains no reference to the name by which most readers know him, nor any explanation of why a different one is used here. 97.96.160.215 ( talk) 00:40, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was moved GrooveDog FOREVER 01:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson →
Alfred, Lord Tennyson — As stated in the article's own lede, Tennyson is "much better known as 'Alfred, Lord Tennyson,'" so that's where the article should be under our
"use common names" guideline. This is also in line with
WP:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#British_peerage, which says "When individuals inherited or were created peers but are best known to history by a courtesy title use that. Examples:
Frederick North, Lord North (not 'Frederick North, 2nd Earl of Guilford'), Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh (not 'Robert Stewart, 2nd Marquess of Londonderry')." The new title is thus perfectly in line with both WP:UCN and WP:NCROY.
Powers
T 15:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Collapsing lengthy discussion for readability
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Comment I've been asked to weigh in here (as a veteran of some contentious name changes on other pages). Let me point out some issues here:
"Reference works. Check other encyclopedias. If there is general agreement on the use of a name (as there often will be), that is usually a good sign of the name being the preferred term in English."
Tennyson, Alfred, first Baron Tennyson (1809–1892), poet, was born on 6 August 1809 at Somersby rectory, Lincolnshire, the fourth child ...
(unindent) Hi Philip, I did make a mistake in quoting Oxford DNB. (For some reason that day, I couldn't access DNB; after emailing them about why my password was not working, I searched the web and happened upon this, which in my hurry, I construed (from its "Further reading") to have the impramatur of DNB.) OK, I'll grant you one more for Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron .... but my point remains, tertiary sources, especially "encyclopedias" (rather than thinking men's Whos' Whos, such as ODNB), are almost completely unanimous in having their page names either "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" (with 636 links) or "Alfred Tennyson" unadorned (603 links), the latter includes roughly 50% references to Tennyson in other pages, rather than the page names themselves. In contrast, there are a mere 8 for "Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson" OR "Alfred Tennyson, Baron Tennyson" OR "Alfred Tennyson, first Baron Tennyson" (now 9 with DNB). Its really "no contest." It was on the basis of tertiary precedent that the Wikipedia page "Mahatma Gandhi" was changed to Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, all other arguments never went anywhere. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind what other encyclopedias have as primary page name. It is neither Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson, nor Alfred Tennyson, Baron Tennyson. Whether or not you want to give that statistic any weight is your prerogative, but there is no doubting its accuracy. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Does Benjamin Disraeli (author of Vivian Grey, Coningsby, etc, and created Earl of Beaconsfield in 1876, eight years before Tennyson was created a Baron) not count? Or does the article mean "first English writer raised to the peerage for being a writer"? Opera hat ( talk) 18:40, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
It's too late to do much of anything, but I have very mixed feelings about this move. On the one hand, it's certainly true that this is the name under which his work is most often published (although certainly not the name under which his work was most often published in his lifetime, since he only became a peer in the last decade of his rather long life, after virtually all of his important work had already been published (except for the end of Idylls of the King, apparently). On the other hand, it's a form that we don't use for any other articles on peers - we never omit the surname in article titles, even when it is the same as the peerage title. Furthermore, we never use the form "Lord X" for substantive peers - we always include the ordinal and the proper peerage rank. ( Frederick North, Lord North is a different case, where we are using the courtesy title he bore for most of his life instead of the substantive title he bore for only a year). I agree that Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson was an awkward and unattractive title. All the options have some flaws, but I think that by some margin the best solution would probably have been a move to Alfred Tennyson. This was the name he bore for his first 75 years, and there is considerable precedent for simply ignoring peerage titles on occasion (see Francis Bacon, Benjamin Disraeli, and Bertrand Russell for older, contemporary, and newer examples of this). I would also note that the appeal to Britannica for supposeldy having its article at "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" is just completely wrong. The general google search seems to suggest that's what the article says, but if you get access to the actual Britannica, the article is actually at "Tennyson (of Aldworth and Freshwater), Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron". The first line then notes "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" as a "byname", and "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" is what appears at the top of the browser, but the article itself is rather clearly titled more or less the same way as this article used to be. john k ( talk) 06:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I'll add that Powers's original move request shows a lack of understanding of the peerage naming conventions. In support of this move, he quotes the line When individuals inherited or were created peers but are best known to history by a courtesy title use that. But that has nothing to do with this. A courtesy title is a title held by the eldest son (or eldest son of the eldest son) of a peer, usually a junior title of the peer. So Lord North was the eldest son of the Earl of Guilford, and Lord Castlereagh the eldest son of the Marquess of Londonderry. Both succeeded to their father's title, but only in the last year of their life, and so are much better known by the courtesy title they bore for the vast majority of their life, rather than the substantive title they bore only briefly (and, in North's case, long after his days of political prominence were over). As such, we make an exception to the normal rule that peers are listed by their highest title, and list them under their courtesy title. But "Lord Tennyson" was not Tennyson's courtesy title. It was his substantive title - a less formal way of saying "Baron Tennyson". This part of naming conventions provides no support whatever for the move - it is specifically about courtesy titles, which has nothing to do with Tennyson, who had no courtesy title at any point in his life. john k ( talk) 06:17, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be a lot in here about Tennyson's artistry as a poet, which seems a pity. I offer this text for people's consideration - I'll leave it a few days and if nobody wants to tweak it I'll post it:
Tennyson used a wide range of subject-matter, ranging from mediaeval legends to classical myths and from domestic situations to observations of nature, as source material for his poetry. The influence of Keats and other Romantic poets published before and during his childhood is evident from the richness of his imagery and descriptive writing. For example, compare Now sleeps the crimson petal, now the white from The Princess with Keats' Eve of St Agnes. However, he also handled rhythm masterfully. The insistent beat of Break, Break, Break emphasises the sadness and relentlessness of the subject matter. Tennyson's use of the musical qualities of words to emphasise his rhythms and meanings is sensitive. The language of I come from haunts of coot and hern lilts and ripples like the brook in the poem and the last two lines of Come down O maid from yonder mountain height offer a most beautiful combination of onomatopoeia, alliteration and assonance:
Tennyson was a craftsman who polished and revised his manuscripts until they were perfect. Few poets have used such a wide variety of styles with such an exact understanding of metre. He reflects the Victorian period of his maturity in his feeling for order and his tendency towards moralising and self-indulgent melancholy. He also reflects a common concern among Victorian writers in being troubled by the apparent conflict between religious faith and scientific discoveries. Like many writers who write a great deal over a long time, his work is very variable in quality and he can be pompous or banal. However, the energy and beauty of his best work has ensured its survival.-- Guinevere50 16:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The statement that Tennyson's use of blank verse, "rare in its day", was due to his tone deafness suggests the author is confusing blank verse and free verse. If Tennyson couldn't hear poetic rhythms he would not have been able to write metrical poetry (which blank verse is). Besides, as others have commented, whatever his ear for music was like, his body of verse as a whole shows an incomparable ear for metre. 144.124.16.28 ( talk) 17:07, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Did Lord Tennyson suffer from temporal lobe epilepsy? Proof Reader ( talk) 01:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
See List of people with epilepsy#Misdiagnosis by association. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 14:45, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Why does a very poor reference and section which needn't be included, be allowed to ruin the whole page. Im proposing it be removed altogether as the reference and also the quotation professing homosexuality embedded within, is very sparse in connection. CorrectlyContentious 15:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)