Albrecht von Wallenstein was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
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I've switched here from the endless German text in the hope to get concise information and not to spend a whole afternoon got et information about this one topic. -- Werfur ( talk) 08:07, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
"force a just peace on the emperor in the interests of united Germany."
Is there a source for this Quote? I find it hard to believe that someone spoke of a united Germany at that time. There was a german language and being german meant speaking a german language as a native language (used in a broad sense, e.g. the dutch were considered germans) but nothing considered "Germany". Or was he referring to the unity of the empire ("Holy Roman Empire of German Nation")? That would make more sense, as the empire was split by the religous factions. 213.191.70.226 15:54, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
In the 18th and throughout the 19th century there was a great discussion on Wallenstein in Germany. It would be fine, if there was some information on this perception in the article.
The current article doesn't mention anything else than his military career as a warlord. There's no info how his military career started, no mention about his small "empire" he set up in northern Bohemia, no information how he devalued the currency in Czech lands to obtain more finances for the war. His political maneuvrings are barely mentioned. List of campaigns and battles is missing. Later fate of his wife and children is obviously uninteresting. Pavel Vozenilek 04:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Failed nomination - As per Pavel Vozenilek's comments above. The article is too incomplete. -- Konstable 02:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing also about the enormous palace he had built in Prague, it still stands and part of it is now the official seat of the Czech Senate. Plch 01:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
"Wallenstein": Wallenstein's name was actually "Waldstein" or "Valdstejn" in the Czech transkription. The name Wallenstein was more or less invented by Schiller, probably because it matched better.
I am a German user and see, that the problem in the English story about Albrecht Eusebius Wenzel from Waldstein is, that you don´t no anything about his person. So look in the German storys of caesar Ferdinand II and Waldstein and let tell them you in English.
The following link gives some information about Hermanice, Czech Rebpulic: http://www.fallingrain.com/world/EZ/0/Hermanice4.html
I am assuming he was an ethnic German, right? this would be interesting to mention in the article, somehow... Mountolive | Talk 05:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
In this article, Wallenstein is purportedly killed by a "Walter Butler", an Irish count who was part of his military force, supposedly on orders from Emperor Ferdinand II. Yet, in the "Thirty Years War" article (<a href=" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War), it states he was killed by a "Captain Devereux", who was one of his soldiers, as Wallenstein attempted to make contact with the Swedes.
Anyone have the correct answer, and if so, please update both articles?
Tommy6860 09:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC) Tom
He was killed by Walter Devereux, one of his army´s officials. The reasons are not very clear according to several historians who have studied this assassination.
1. his name: spelling in general was not fixed in the 17th century, when the concept of a universal, fixed orthography seemed still very remote. Besides, a name can changed over the centuries, as the language itself changes. According to bis biographers, the name of the family as first recorded in the 13th century, was Waldnstein, of which first Waldstein and later Wallenstein became easier to pronounce varieties. The latter form was used less before Schiller published his famous triology in 1799, but according to Mann, the duke himself signed his name as Wallenstein at least once.
2. his murderes: the man who rammed a partisane through the unfortunate's duke chest on the night of February 25 was Walter Deveroux, an Irish mercenary captain. Walter Butler was another Irishman, a colonnel of Dragoons, who helped organize this murder, and participated himself in the killing of Ilow, Trčka, and Kinsky.
3. his nationality: calling him either a Czech or a German would hide the fact that he was equally at home in either culture, spoke both languages, and counted himself among the princes of the Holy Roman Empire - which combined many nationalities in one fragile union. Officially, by the standards of his days, there was no Czech nation as such, there was Bohemia, a constituent state of the Habsburg Monarchy. With respect to statehood and citizenship, there was no such thing as Germany either, only the Empire, and some German states outside it (like East Prussia).
Textor (
talk) 23:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
According to:
An Authentic Account of the Death of Wallenstein, with a Vindication of the Motives of Colonel Walter Butler
Author(s): Francis Prendergast
Source: Transactions of the Kilkenny Archaeological Society, Vol. 2, No. 1 (1852), pp. 9-32
Published by: Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland
Stable URL:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/25489808
the reasons given in the article for Wallenstein's assassination are incorrect. According to Prendergast, Butler took it upon himself to assassinate Wallenstein when he realised that he was no longer loyal to the Emperor and intended to fight against him. Butler enlisted the help of Devereaux, Gordon, et. al. The Emperor subsequently issued as edict to justify the assassination after the fact. Prendergast cites a contemporaneous account given by Butler's Irish Chaplain, Fr. Patrick Taaffe in support of this version.
See also:
Wallenstein and Butler: 1634-1934
Author(s): Mary M. Macken
Source: Studies: An Irish Quarterly Review, Vol. 23, No. 92 (Dec., 1934), pp. 593-610
Published by: Irish Province of the Society of Jesus
Stable URL:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/30095174 (in particular p604 and following).
Dennisson9 (
talk) 13:36, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Wallenstein's nationality is not sure, Germans say he was a German, Czechs say he was a Czech, this is not what I want to speak about. Absolutely sure is, that the project „Germany“ is not right in his case in my humble opinion. Even if he his nationality would be German, he didn't live in Germany. There was Holy Roman Empire, but in this empire lived many nationalities, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Dutchmen, Slovenians and others. In 1620, the Czech lands were connected to Austria - and it's not Germany. Germany, as a real national state, is there since the 19th century. -- Zik2 ( talk) 21:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
or The Great Moravian Empire (Velká Morava) -- Posp68 ( talk) 20:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
I wondered about the last paragraph before the 'Treachery and death' section where his guilt of treachery is claimed:
That 'in fact' Wallenstein was 'preparing to desert the Emperor' is not verified by a reference. The 'evidence' put forth here seems to be flimsy ( 'rumors told that he was preparing to force a just peace on the Emperor' ), and for whatever reason the very hefty article on Wallenstein in the German Wikipedia ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallenstein) does only mention accusations of treachery. I find it hard to equalise peace negotiations with treachery, not to mention desertion. All told the bombastic 'in fact' currently seems to rest on contemporary rumours and accussations - but as I'm no expert on Wallenstein or the Thirty Years' War there may be good evidence out there. As it is, however, I suggest adding such evidence (referenced accordingly), and/or modify to reflect accusations of rather than proven treachury. And that he is considered to be guilty by his own 'top brass' (the Emperor) who wants a tougher line against the Protestants, has a replacement ready, and apparently has him assassinated (rather than formally convicted) does not exactly chime well with a wealth of evidence against Wallenstein.
Mojowiha ( talk) 12:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
First, please read WP:PLACE. Some errors corrected:
Official language in Bohemia and Moravia was Czech ( [2], " from 1430 on the number of documents in Czech grew and in ca. 1470 won a leading rank. In its capacity as the official language, Czech survived until the 17th century.", "The Czech language remained the first language in the kingdom.".
If you use German sources, please understand, that we are in English wiki and we must use English names. Argument, that some name is in German source, is wrong. If someone use source in Chinese, will be Berlin 柏林? No.-- Yopie ( talk) 04:24, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
There is no grammatical or expository reason to italicize current Czech names of formerly ethnic-German localities in the Czech Republic. In English, italics usually denote foreign (non-English) words for things or concepts, but not place names. Since 1945-46, Cheb – formerly known as Eger – has officially been Cheb, not Cheb, and the Czech name should not be italicized.
(The same principle applies to former German names, which also should not be italicized.) Sca ( talk) 14:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
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Hey there, I just wanted to ask if we should add the historical Reenactments which are done under the Name Wallenstein (e.g. Wallenstein Memmingen (german) or Wallensteinfestspiele Altdorf ) because they are pretty big (eventually the biggest historical Reenactments in Europe) Blablupp ( talk) 10:14, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
I have downgraded this article because it has multiple sourcing issues beginning in 2012. The
criteria (#1) states, The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited.
The tags conflict with this. I am not sure about the "Expansion tag". The "External links" section has 8 entries and needs trimming per
WP:ELPOINTS #3.
@ FromCzech : As you see the German article contains much more info. I do not necessarily mean that it must exactly be copied in the image of the German article; just that it can be expanded from de.wiki. Another possibility could be sub-articles. Synotia ( talk) 12:43, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Palastwache : You reverted the section below with the following comment: What's the closer connection to Wallenstein? It was not "his castle" and most of the wealth of Prague did not derive from his former residential palace. Sweden did indeed prolong the war to gain money for dissolving their army but they demanded (and in the end, received) financial compensation from the German estates. Looting Prague was profitable but a bonus. What definitely is worth including is the fate of de Vries' statues.
I'm not saying that it necessarily has to be my text in the article. But I want to highlight two aspects that are important:
I don't think you should leave the readers wondering? The basic idea of Wikipedia is the links and events need to be linked.
I also believe that it was not just a Swedish robber plan, but that the Austrians proposed it as a desperate attempt to end the war. For one thing, it was the estate of Wallenstein's heirs and the emperor did not like Wallenstein, who had already been taken off the rails 14 years earlier, and the emperor was not in a position to have an iron grip on all the German petty princes in 1648 and take over the estate himself, but still for lack of better.
For that reason, I think the coup was carried out quite obviously as a kind of spectacle where they were really completely uninterested in the other side of Prague and definitely did not have the resources to control that side, just putting up a show. They were there to collect the goods and as far as possible make it look like a coincidence. But it was probably absolutely anything but a coincidence.
So the reality was probably far more elaborate than anyone can ever write, now or then. But something in the style of what I wrote is needed in order to understand the context.
Text:
Wallenstein funds the Peace of Westphalia
The problem with concluding the Peace of Westphalia was that as soon as Sweden signed the peace agreement, the state would go bankrupt. It had carried out its participation in the Thirty Years' War in an attempt to finance the army through plunder. But after many years that income decreases and continues to wage war on credit, credits Sweden was unable to pay. This was one of the main reasons why the peace negotiations dragged on.
The solution to the problem was to raid with a military operation the former Austrian general's castle in Prague, where of the emperor in disgrace and murdered generals accumulated plunder after years of war was considerable. So significant that as soon as it became known that the raids had been carried out, the Peace of Westphalia was signed. [1]
The proceeds paid the war credits and made many Swedish high ranking officers very rich, with Carl Gustaf Wrangel being responsible as governor of Stralsund for the repatriation and making a fortune that filled his new Skokloster Castle. It also provided the Swedish state with a significant material and cultural addition such as the Silver Bible and the Codex Gigas were brought to Sweden [2], and a large part of the loot, like The many statues scattered throughout the Baroque garden that were created by the artist Adrian de Vries, ended up at Drottningholm Palace, residence of the present Swedish King.
. Zzalpha ( talk) 21:41, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
References
An interesting event in the life of Wallenstein is missing. Note: Wallenstein was not respected by the Croats and Hungarians.
The missing story, in December of 1626, involves Juraj V Zrinski, a Janissary head, an insult against Wallenstein and then the death of Juraj V Zrinski - allegedly from a poisoned radish given to him on the orders of Wallenstein. 104.158.48.139 ( talk) 22:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Albrecht von Wallenstein was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
|
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I've switched here from the endless German text in the hope to get concise information and not to spend a whole afternoon got et information about this one topic. -- Werfur ( talk) 08:07, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
"force a just peace on the emperor in the interests of united Germany."
Is there a source for this Quote? I find it hard to believe that someone spoke of a united Germany at that time. There was a german language and being german meant speaking a german language as a native language (used in a broad sense, e.g. the dutch were considered germans) but nothing considered "Germany". Or was he referring to the unity of the empire ("Holy Roman Empire of German Nation")? That would make more sense, as the empire was split by the religous factions. 213.191.70.226 15:54, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
In the 18th and throughout the 19th century there was a great discussion on Wallenstein in Germany. It would be fine, if there was some information on this perception in the article.
The current article doesn't mention anything else than his military career as a warlord. There's no info how his military career started, no mention about his small "empire" he set up in northern Bohemia, no information how he devalued the currency in Czech lands to obtain more finances for the war. His political maneuvrings are barely mentioned. List of campaigns and battles is missing. Later fate of his wife and children is obviously uninteresting. Pavel Vozenilek 04:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Failed nomination - As per Pavel Vozenilek's comments above. The article is too incomplete. -- Konstable 02:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing also about the enormous palace he had built in Prague, it still stands and part of it is now the official seat of the Czech Senate. Plch 01:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
"Wallenstein": Wallenstein's name was actually "Waldstein" or "Valdstejn" in the Czech transkription. The name Wallenstein was more or less invented by Schiller, probably because it matched better.
I am a German user and see, that the problem in the English story about Albrecht Eusebius Wenzel from Waldstein is, that you don´t no anything about his person. So look in the German storys of caesar Ferdinand II and Waldstein and let tell them you in English.
The following link gives some information about Hermanice, Czech Rebpulic: http://www.fallingrain.com/world/EZ/0/Hermanice4.html
I am assuming he was an ethnic German, right? this would be interesting to mention in the article, somehow... Mountolive | Talk 05:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
In this article, Wallenstein is purportedly killed by a "Walter Butler", an Irish count who was part of his military force, supposedly on orders from Emperor Ferdinand II. Yet, in the "Thirty Years War" article (<a href=" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War), it states he was killed by a "Captain Devereux", who was one of his soldiers, as Wallenstein attempted to make contact with the Swedes.
Anyone have the correct answer, and if so, please update both articles?
Tommy6860 09:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC) Tom
He was killed by Walter Devereux, one of his army´s officials. The reasons are not very clear according to several historians who have studied this assassination.
1. his name: spelling in general was not fixed in the 17th century, when the concept of a universal, fixed orthography seemed still very remote. Besides, a name can changed over the centuries, as the language itself changes. According to bis biographers, the name of the family as first recorded in the 13th century, was Waldnstein, of which first Waldstein and later Wallenstein became easier to pronounce varieties. The latter form was used less before Schiller published his famous triology in 1799, but according to Mann, the duke himself signed his name as Wallenstein at least once.
2. his murderes: the man who rammed a partisane through the unfortunate's duke chest on the night of February 25 was Walter Deveroux, an Irish mercenary captain. Walter Butler was another Irishman, a colonnel of Dragoons, who helped organize this murder, and participated himself in the killing of Ilow, Trčka, and Kinsky.
3. his nationality: calling him either a Czech or a German would hide the fact that he was equally at home in either culture, spoke both languages, and counted himself among the princes of the Holy Roman Empire - which combined many nationalities in one fragile union. Officially, by the standards of his days, there was no Czech nation as such, there was Bohemia, a constituent state of the Habsburg Monarchy. With respect to statehood and citizenship, there was no such thing as Germany either, only the Empire, and some German states outside it (like East Prussia).
Textor (
talk) 23:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
According to:
An Authentic Account of the Death of Wallenstein, with a Vindication of the Motives of Colonel Walter Butler
Author(s): Francis Prendergast
Source: Transactions of the Kilkenny Archaeological Society, Vol. 2, No. 1 (1852), pp. 9-32
Published by: Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland
Stable URL:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/25489808
the reasons given in the article for Wallenstein's assassination are incorrect. According to Prendergast, Butler took it upon himself to assassinate Wallenstein when he realised that he was no longer loyal to the Emperor and intended to fight against him. Butler enlisted the help of Devereaux, Gordon, et. al. The Emperor subsequently issued as edict to justify the assassination after the fact. Prendergast cites a contemporaneous account given by Butler's Irish Chaplain, Fr. Patrick Taaffe in support of this version.
See also:
Wallenstein and Butler: 1634-1934
Author(s): Mary M. Macken
Source: Studies: An Irish Quarterly Review, Vol. 23, No. 92 (Dec., 1934), pp. 593-610
Published by: Irish Province of the Society of Jesus
Stable URL:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/30095174 (in particular p604 and following).
Dennisson9 (
talk) 13:36, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Wallenstein's nationality is not sure, Germans say he was a German, Czechs say he was a Czech, this is not what I want to speak about. Absolutely sure is, that the project „Germany“ is not right in his case in my humble opinion. Even if he his nationality would be German, he didn't live in Germany. There was Holy Roman Empire, but in this empire lived many nationalities, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Dutchmen, Slovenians and others. In 1620, the Czech lands were connected to Austria - and it's not Germany. Germany, as a real national state, is there since the 19th century. -- Zik2 ( talk) 21:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
or The Great Moravian Empire (Velká Morava) -- Posp68 ( talk) 20:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
I wondered about the last paragraph before the 'Treachery and death' section where his guilt of treachery is claimed:
That 'in fact' Wallenstein was 'preparing to desert the Emperor' is not verified by a reference. The 'evidence' put forth here seems to be flimsy ( 'rumors told that he was preparing to force a just peace on the Emperor' ), and for whatever reason the very hefty article on Wallenstein in the German Wikipedia ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallenstein) does only mention accusations of treachery. I find it hard to equalise peace negotiations with treachery, not to mention desertion. All told the bombastic 'in fact' currently seems to rest on contemporary rumours and accussations - but as I'm no expert on Wallenstein or the Thirty Years' War there may be good evidence out there. As it is, however, I suggest adding such evidence (referenced accordingly), and/or modify to reflect accusations of rather than proven treachury. And that he is considered to be guilty by his own 'top brass' (the Emperor) who wants a tougher line against the Protestants, has a replacement ready, and apparently has him assassinated (rather than formally convicted) does not exactly chime well with a wealth of evidence against Wallenstein.
Mojowiha ( talk) 12:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
First, please read WP:PLACE. Some errors corrected:
Official language in Bohemia and Moravia was Czech ( [2], " from 1430 on the number of documents in Czech grew and in ca. 1470 won a leading rank. In its capacity as the official language, Czech survived until the 17th century.", "The Czech language remained the first language in the kingdom.".
If you use German sources, please understand, that we are in English wiki and we must use English names. Argument, that some name is in German source, is wrong. If someone use source in Chinese, will be Berlin 柏林? No.-- Yopie ( talk) 04:24, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
There is no grammatical or expository reason to italicize current Czech names of formerly ethnic-German localities in the Czech Republic. In English, italics usually denote foreign (non-English) words for things or concepts, but not place names. Since 1945-46, Cheb – formerly known as Eger – has officially been Cheb, not Cheb, and the Czech name should not be italicized.
(The same principle applies to former German names, which also should not be italicized.) Sca ( talk) 14:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:58, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Hey there, I just wanted to ask if we should add the historical Reenactments which are done under the Name Wallenstein (e.g. Wallenstein Memmingen (german) or Wallensteinfestspiele Altdorf ) because they are pretty big (eventually the biggest historical Reenactments in Europe) Blablupp ( talk) 10:14, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
I have downgraded this article because it has multiple sourcing issues beginning in 2012. The
criteria (#1) states, The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited.
The tags conflict with this. I am not sure about the "Expansion tag". The "External links" section has 8 entries and needs trimming per
WP:ELPOINTS #3.
@ FromCzech : As you see the German article contains much more info. I do not necessarily mean that it must exactly be copied in the image of the German article; just that it can be expanded from de.wiki. Another possibility could be sub-articles. Synotia ( talk) 12:43, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Palastwache : You reverted the section below with the following comment: What's the closer connection to Wallenstein? It was not "his castle" and most of the wealth of Prague did not derive from his former residential palace. Sweden did indeed prolong the war to gain money for dissolving their army but they demanded (and in the end, received) financial compensation from the German estates. Looting Prague was profitable but a bonus. What definitely is worth including is the fate of de Vries' statues.
I'm not saying that it necessarily has to be my text in the article. But I want to highlight two aspects that are important:
I don't think you should leave the readers wondering? The basic idea of Wikipedia is the links and events need to be linked.
I also believe that it was not just a Swedish robber plan, but that the Austrians proposed it as a desperate attempt to end the war. For one thing, it was the estate of Wallenstein's heirs and the emperor did not like Wallenstein, who had already been taken off the rails 14 years earlier, and the emperor was not in a position to have an iron grip on all the German petty princes in 1648 and take over the estate himself, but still for lack of better.
For that reason, I think the coup was carried out quite obviously as a kind of spectacle where they were really completely uninterested in the other side of Prague and definitely did not have the resources to control that side, just putting up a show. They were there to collect the goods and as far as possible make it look like a coincidence. But it was probably absolutely anything but a coincidence.
So the reality was probably far more elaborate than anyone can ever write, now or then. But something in the style of what I wrote is needed in order to understand the context.
Text:
Wallenstein funds the Peace of Westphalia
The problem with concluding the Peace of Westphalia was that as soon as Sweden signed the peace agreement, the state would go bankrupt. It had carried out its participation in the Thirty Years' War in an attempt to finance the army through plunder. But after many years that income decreases and continues to wage war on credit, credits Sweden was unable to pay. This was one of the main reasons why the peace negotiations dragged on.
The solution to the problem was to raid with a military operation the former Austrian general's castle in Prague, where of the emperor in disgrace and murdered generals accumulated plunder after years of war was considerable. So significant that as soon as it became known that the raids had been carried out, the Peace of Westphalia was signed. [1]
The proceeds paid the war credits and made many Swedish high ranking officers very rich, with Carl Gustaf Wrangel being responsible as governor of Stralsund for the repatriation and making a fortune that filled his new Skokloster Castle. It also provided the Swedish state with a significant material and cultural addition such as the Silver Bible and the Codex Gigas were brought to Sweden [2], and a large part of the loot, like The many statues scattered throughout the Baroque garden that were created by the artist Adrian de Vries, ended up at Drottningholm Palace, residence of the present Swedish King.
. Zzalpha ( talk) 21:41, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
References
An interesting event in the life of Wallenstein is missing. Note: Wallenstein was not respected by the Croats and Hungarians.
The missing story, in December of 1626, involves Juraj V Zrinski, a Janissary head, an insult against Wallenstein and then the death of Juraj V Zrinski - allegedly from a poisoned radish given to him on the orders of Wallenstein. 104.158.48.139 ( talk) 22:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)