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I believe that Albert Einstein's nationality tag should be changed immediately to 'Swiss-American' for the several reasons which I will now explain:
For those reasons I will change the nationality tag immediately.
Cypriot stud 18:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the two relevant questions to ask when deciding how Einstein's nationality/ethnicity should be described in the opening sentence is first: What best describes the man? Second: how did his origins affected his legacy? From what I can tell, Einstein's Swiss and American citizenships were more pragmatic than personal, and more incidental than influential, so I don't think they belong in the opening sentence. Further, they did not necessarily have a dramatic effect on his impact in history. I would argue that his being German-BORN was significant, and that his being a jew is signficant (for reasons I've already elaborated upon pretty extensively, so I'll not regurgitate them other than to mention that I don't think anyone has made any substantial counter argument to them so far) but despite being an American myself I don't find his American citizenship particularly noteworthy, nor do I think his Swiss citizenship tells us much about Einstein as a person or historical figure that we don't already learn by noting he was a German-born jew. Geeman 23:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
User: Starnold recently wanted Einstein’s religion to be listed in the infobox as “ Pantheist, does not believe in a personal God.” User: Prep111 wanted it to be “ Jewish (non-observant ).” These are just two instances of why his religion is too complex to summarize in the infobox. We discussed this issue at length in an archived section of this talk page. -- teb728 00:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Einstein was a difficult person, it's fact, but he always said: "I don't believe in a personal god." And he also said: "I believe in Spinoza's God". He was a pantheist and nonbeliever of a personal God. He didn't like atheism. -- Starnold 15:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Although I remain skeptical of mentioning Einstein’s Jewish nationality in the first paragraph and quite opposed to mentioning his Swiss and American citizenships there, I think it might be a good thing to list his Jewish nationality in the Nationality field of the infobox. I wonder if Geeman and Epson291 would be content with that. The difference between the infobox and the first paragraph is that the infobox is a list: As such it doesn’t need to be good prose and it is easy to skip over information that one is not interested in. I am thinking of a Nationality entry like this:
An archived poll here voted to include only citizenship in this field, but perhaps that issue might be reopened. -- teb728 22:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
To user, user:DAGwyn, as for your comment about people wanting to claim him as his own, I would think so, concidering his contributions, if it was say, Émile Durkheim or one of the many famous Europeans (who just happened to be Jewish), and whose being a Jew had nothing to do with their life or notability , I would definitely argue for it not to be in the opening paragrah (rather in their biography of growing up). However, Einstein is notable for his continued contributions to the Jewish people, which was a big part of what he did later in his life. The word "Jew" would give proper respect to that. I object to "German-born" being the only mention in the opening paragraph, since it is not simply that he was just "German-born" and then moved around a lot. I would not object to "German-born" or just German, if other mentions were made. (Are there any quotes to how he felt about his "Germaness" after his German citizenship was taken from him, or later in his life?) I object to it being the only mention since it disorts the picture of reality. As for the German pronounciation, a confused reader, would find out later in the article the reason for that. It is not different from a user getting confused by the singular German mention. (An American English pronounciation, should likely be included as well, since he became an English speaking naturalized American citizen for the rest of his life) Epson291 07:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Should we move the quotes to wikiquote and provide a link at the relevent point? It would help 'streamline' the article Jnb 14:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I've been away from this article for a bit, but I really don't think it was a good idea to gut the religious views section. This is an important matter in the contemporary debate - Dawkins devotes a whole chapter on it in The God Delusion and we need the (carefully amassed) evidence here. FWIW I also think we need to slow down the massive number of changes esp by a single editor. NBeale 06:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi DAGwyn. It is completely untrue that religion played a negligible part in his life! Even Richard Dawkins knows this! Have you read Subtle is the Lord?? "By his own definition, Einstein himself was, of coruse, a deeply relgious person." (Pais, 1982 p 319) NBeale 07:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Keep it as is. Its fine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.187.72.3 ( talk)
It seems to me that User:Epson291 is adding more photos than are needed, particularly since some of them are questionable in the fair use department. In particularly the pictures of Einstein playing the violin, with Eban, and with Ben-Gurion do not contribute significantly to the article, as required by the Wikipedia fair use policy. (In contrast a plausible fair-use rationale can be made for the use of the Time cover and the picture of the Einstein memorial, for example, in that they illustrate the mentions in the text of the Person of the Century award and the memorial.) -- teb728 23:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
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I've found that cleaning up the grammar, removing redundancies and reserving the in-depth descriptions and critiques of Annus Mirabilis Papers for the
Annus Mirabilis Papers article (although they were very well written) has knocked about 10kb off the article.
I've only gotten to the section entitled "General Relativity" so far, no links checked, and still inconsistent about native v. English translations of organizations. I'll be back to work on it tomorrow.
~
Otterpops 18:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
This paragraph replaced a post by a banned user. In relevant part he noted the removal of the link to Relativity priority dispute and the names of other scientists mentioned there. -- teb728 09:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Urban legend says that Einstein was a lowly patent office drone when he wrote the A.M. Papers that eventually got him the Nobel, but putting the chronology together I'm starting to understand that he was actually a PhD student (ABD at that) when he published them in a very prestigious journal where he had published before. (This is plenty remarkable, as any ABD will tell you.)
I'm getting the impression that Einstein couldn't get TA-ships because he annoyed professors but had to keep supporting his family while he was in grad school so he got the job at the patent office while doing the PhD, it was an after-school job (also plenty remarkable). As it reads now the article implies that as soon as he published those four papers in 1905 (as if Annalin der Physic took manuscripts over the transom) he was boom granted a PhD by the University of Zurich.
Anyone have good info from one of the bios that talks about what PhD programs he applied to, when he applied to them, in what subjects, and how he ended up at Universitait Zurich? I did find a quick note in the article on his advisor that mentions Einstein quarreling with his first advisor and changing horses midstream.
Reality checking... ~
Otterpops 19:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Not sure how 1905 Swiss universities worked at the time, but to get a PhD in the US today, a person applies to (is sponsored into) a program bcz s/he is potentially a desirable member of the advisor's research team. S/he then takes classes for about three semesters but also works as an instructor (a TA) for a tiny salary plus "considerations" (tuition waiver plus health insurance, usually). When the classes are finished, the person takes a nasty series of written and oral exams called "comps" (comprehensive examinations). When the comps are passed, the person is "ABD" (All But Dissertation) and begins writing a giant torturous paper or more likely series of papers on one topic (the dissertation) including original publishable research that makes a master's thesis look like a book report. A person might be ABD for years and years, a student in perfectly good standing without taking any classes at all (they register for "thesis hours" listing their advisor as the instructor). The long dissertation is sometimes wise because that means s/he has access to university research facilities, equipment and staff with only Teaching Assistant responsibilities.
Academia is a weird world with its own jargon, I'm trying to find good ways to communicate accurately to people living in it at the same time as being clear for people who have no reason to know anything about it. I'll have another look at that wording to see if it can be put better. ~
Otterpops 22:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Two different universities? Oh my goodness. I don't have an Einstein bio lying around, can someone who does dump some info into that section? Changing advisor (research project) is one thing but quitting a PhD program in one school to move to another school is something else. I never looked at a map to see how far Bern was from Zurich...yes, I did assume he was commuting. He wouldn't have had to show his face at the campus daily if he wasn't taking classes, but still, holy moly. My only point was that universities don't spontaneously hand people PhDs on account of smartness (oh if only they did!) ~ Otterpops 16:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Do you think the chronology is wrong? If you want to get some solid references on date of graduation from PhD program, etc. that would be terrific. Put them in and I'll integrate (and correct my misunderstandings) when I do the reference-check sweep.
~
Otterpops 16:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
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Mostly organization today, coming back to work on Dangerous Politics section more tomorrow. ~ Otterpops 22:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I have removed "probabilistic interpretation of quantum theory" which is linked to the 'copenhagen interpretation'. I feel that this is more of a intellectual dispute rather than a major contribution - particularly in comparison with his groundbreaking "annus mirabilis" papers. The 'unified field theory' was an ambition rather than an achievement. Overall I feel that the introduction could be improved, so that users without a background in quantum physics have a smooth start. Inwind 02:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The EPR Paradox not only has an article of its own, it's covered in-depth in the Bohr-Einstein Debates article (which links to the EPR article). EPR Paradox has virtually no meaning (let alone significance) to a person with an ordinay college education and because its importance is apparent only in the context of the debate (the intricacies of and explanations for which there is no room for in the "Albert Einstein" biography article) I had to take this newly introduced section out. I'm so sorry, please don't be hurt, your contribution was and is valuable. Could you maybe go to work on the "Bohr-Einstein Debates"? I think that one needs an educated eye.
Please understand that this article is much too large, and was becoming incomprehensible to the everyday reader. A newspaper article is written at a 6th grade reading level, and I'm attempting to edit this Albert Einstein bio to a Liberal Arts BA level.
Thanks for the offered help. Say...if you have any Einstein books laying around the house, could you check some of these "fact"-tagged dates and quotes? That would be a huge help.
~
Otterpops 20:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I can't intuit how to put it back in after the section about Einstein being offered the presidency of Israel in "Dangerous Politics". I can look up how to do it, but is there anyone more on the ball than me who can just pop it back in? ~ Otterpops 21:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! I think it adds because it shows Einstein as a kind of founding father of a country, not just a pop hero. It's also a quick way of showing the info instead of adding in an awkward sentence about "Einstein's portrait appears on Israeli paper money between the years Y and Z". ~ Otterpops 16:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh. Good point. Do you want it gone? Or moved? I haven't gotten to the "Honors" section yet, that might work better and look more natural. ~ Otterpops 22:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
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Organization, language, globalization, historical clarification for "Dangerous Politics". Have not checked links, will do tomorrow. ~ Otterpops 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is it believed that when Einstein was in highschool the grading scale was suddenly reversed? I do not understand where this information comes from and why such a change would happen, neither is it noted in the article. Naturally, the scale is 1-6 with 1 being the highest at the Luitpold Gymnasium and it is to this day, so why was it reversed to begin with? And what of the quote, "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Though this isn't proof enough, neither is merely stating that he was a good student. unsigned comment was added by 139.182.13.148 talk • contribs 02:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
When comparing the Einstein page to the Carl Gauss page its very apparent that this needs a lot of work. There is no discussion about the subjects of his 1905 papers nor its impact on the field of physics. Nor is there any discussion about the problems that he worked on in any serious matter. All in all you dont really get a feel for why Einsten is considered to be one of the greatest physicists of all time from this write up. unsigned comment was added by Zaidkhalil ( talk • contribs) 08:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Copy edit turned into writing a section, this may duplicate linked articles but I'm out of energy and will have to check and pare it down tomorrow. Dont proofread yet, please. ~ Otterpops 21:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
IMO the article was better without the so called “desecration” part. Maybe it should be moved to Thomas Stoltz Harvey and/or relegated to an extended footnote to a statement that some investigators found differences in the brain and others none. As it is, it is an irrelevant, lurid (and borderline POV in its criticism of Harvey) detail in an overly long article. -- teb728 23:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
'Desecration' is going to go but I haven't figured out a better way to put that yet. Any suggestions? The two reasons for that passage (after the one about his death) are to account for all the common knowledge info about how his brain differed from others, and also to include the info that yes, his brain was stolen, it wasn't just a rumor even though it sounds like one.
What about "
Albert Einstein's brain was removed from his body and preserved, but it was several decades before neuroscience progressed to a point where examination of it could provide any fruitful...etc. etc." and mention Marian Diamond by name because she was the first? In other words, get the link in there but don't touch it otherwise?
~
Otterpops 14:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The changes of the last few days look awful, on the whole. The article no longer makes sense at all and several sections are totally gutted and have ridiculous titles. Good job, guys. Compare the most recent version with the one from six days ago. Even the table of contents looks better on the other one. I vote to restore it, no offense Otterpops but it is a mess at the moment. Headings like "The patent office job" look both unencyclopedic, unprofessional, and silly. And at the moment there is NO explanation in this article of why anyone gave a damn about his 1905 papers! Obviously we can have a whole article devoted to the details but any reasonable person would expect to be able to at least understand that these fundamentally bucked the status quo and had all sorts of startling conclusions!! And his rise to fame and prominence is covered in one sentence?!?! I also love the complete overkill on the "citation needed" — apparently every single sentence needs a citation, even ones which are their own source (i.e. the description of the London Times headline.
The article was a mess before, true enough, but now it is a disgrace and a tragedy. If it is not restored it just means that someone will have to rewrite it all in the future—it is fundamentally unacceptable and does not at all reflect any real understanding of the subject or what is important about it. Its current state is embarassing and amateurish. Again, no offense Otterpops, but I think you are in a little over your head here and I don't think it has been positive. We all have things we are good at writing about and we all have things we would bungle. -- 24.147.86.187 03:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
What's the reasoning behind linking each date and year? Once the info is added to the
The Timetables of History-style articles, does it need to stay linked? Curious readers can look for a year or a date in the Search: "Hmm, but what else was going on that year...was that before or after the explosion of the Hindenburg?"
~
Otterpops 06:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The chronology is in place, also overall structure of the article - no further really alarming changes coming at you. Working through Manual of Style, standardizing and checking notes, references, and links now. Have at it.
~
Otterpops 10:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
you spelled traveling wrong! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.63.203.240 ( talk • contribs) 04:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Writing by Einstein himself on General and Special Relativity (two articles) is available at the Gutenburg Project website, his own words. Doesn't seem like it should be just a footnote (External Link, actually) but I'm not sure of the best place to either mention it, see-also, or link it. Suggestions? This would be the best explanation of all for the physicists around here.
~
Otterpops 17:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
While cleaning up 'External Links' links, I found sources for some uncited assertions, also looks like one user was clipping sentences right out of the pages listed there. If anyone feels like learning ALL ABOUT Albert Einstein, it would be a worthy project to spend some time with those articles and then add attributions, paraphrase and/or quote marks, and citations for the information we stole from them.
~
Otterpops 19:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Why are we switching from one of the 3 MOS approved citation systems to another? It seems to me that Wikipedia:Footnotes read better than Wikipedia:Harvard referencing. -- teb728 23:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
6 is not the highest possible mark. It is the lowest on a scale of 1-6 commonly used in German, Austrian and Swiss grading systems, from what I learned in German class. Nesbittk 14:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
There is available a pretty good obit on the greatest physicist of all time at the NYT... if someone with edit rights on the locked article deems to include it under External Links:
Obituary, NY Times, April 19, 1955, Dr. Albert Einstein Dies in Sleep at 76; World Mourns Loss of Great Scientist 68.228.70.223 14:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The nazis said ,once upon the time, that only an arian or ethnic German could be a citizen of the third rich.Einstein, like many other prominent Jewish scienticts, was expelled from Germany since he wasnt an ethnic German. When you refer to him as an "ethnic" German you mean that it acctually was his historical origin-and it wasnt...In the same way, you wouldnt refer to any German citizen which is of a Turkish ancestry as an "ethnic German" I would ask you to understand that Jewishness is not only a matter of relligion , but it also an ethnic group as well -in any aspect you choose to test it :from history to biology.More, I dont understood how a man which is not of a mixed origin can be realted to 2 very different ethnic groups.Einstein state himself (nor did it matter for the facts about his true and only ethnic origin) after Hitler's rise to power:"If this is Germany,I am not a German any more"(he never came back from his words).And finally, it think that you shoyld know a litle a bout the welding of the German ethnic identity before you state that he was a German ("... The ethnogenesis of the Germanic tribes is assumed to have occurred during the Nordic Bronze Age, or at the latest, during the Pre-Roman Iron Age. From southern Scandinavia and northern Germany, the tribes began expanding south, east and west in the first century BC, coming into contact with the Celtic tribes of Gaul and Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic tribes in Eastern Europe..".-and not only you did it, you also put it over his Jewish ethnic origin. I deleted the "German" from the Albert Einstein ethnic clause -and I hope it will stay like that.-- Gilisa 08:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Since when the facts are for democratic vote???? and the culture from which he was affected mean nothing for the ethnic origin which is undepented.I understand that you dont like to mention his Jewishness,but he was an ethnic Jew...-- Gilisa 12:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
You wouldny claim that a person from the Turkish community in Germany is an ethnic german-even if he were influenced from the German culture.And if you do-its just dont true. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gilisa ( talk • contribs) 12:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
--copied from my talk page teb728 19:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Your claims about the ethnic origin are beat about the bush.In the common sense, an ethnic origin refers to the people from which someone historclly came from.True,it involve with heritage and ancestry defintions but not with RACISEM (i.e the German nazis made alot of crimes, one was to categorize humans as deserve or not deserve to live according to their own ethnic identity which was there much before Hitler and will stay there much after him)!!!and thats the big difference.If you want to redefine the meaning of "ethnic origin"-dont do it on the back of the Jewish people.My father was from a long German Jewish ancestry ,He acctually born there -speak the language -and knew the culture-like any body who born there:Turkish,African,Russian -and etc and didnt became being an ethnic Germans he stayed an ethnic Jew-nothing else.In the case of the Jewish people which were forced to establish their communities outside their own historical homeland -its even stronger.Objectivly, refering Einstein as an ethnic German is bad for the true, bad for Wikipedia , and just a provocing act.-- Gilisa 11:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Stop your demagoig claims-THE ONES WHO FOLLOW THE NAZIS ARE THUS WHICH TRY TO ELIMNATE AND TO DELETE ANY MENTION FOR EINSTEIN ETHNIC ORIGIN!!!FOLLOW THE NAZIS MEAN TO DEFIND PEOPOLE AS BAD OR GOOD FOR THEIR RACE ,TO CITE GREAT MAN LIKE EINSTEIN AS A JEW IS ON THE OPPOSITE FROM THE NAZIS. the ethnic origin have nothing to do with Hitler. according your claims:since Hitler it is forbiden to consider Jewishness as an ethnic origin-or, there is no Jewish ethnic origin....we should denay that there is such a thing as Jews and this is a different origin...I feel no guilty to cite Einstein as a Jew.Jew which convert himself is still from Jewsih ethnic origin -the problem is with the anti semic Europeans which make it to a problem-not with me , and i have no intention pay for their own crimes by changing the facts.More, i get support from many Jews all over the world - might be they are all nazis?is that what you said MR Schulz?-- Gilisa 18:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
If you are trying to win this disscussion by asking provok , unrealted quastions then I dont have to clearfy nothing to you or to schultz-you are doing it on purpose ,but: I can be a German citizen , yes , but it doesnt change my ethnicity - only the nazis , and there followers, said that someone who want to be a german citizen and\ or to live must being an ethnic german . When people tallking about the ethnic origin they refer to the historicl nation of which someone came from.schultz-I guess you are a german-sorry to say, but the german culture for which Einstein grown to was the culture that made the holocaust...so even if the ethnic origin was based on the culture -and it is a pure lie to say so ,to put someone which is from the Jewish nation as a german is only a provocing act. More, i know much more about Jews then you peopole know (i.e im a Jewish myself , living all my life between Jews) and the very most of the Jewish peopole which , for example, came from Arab countries are strongly against the notion of "Arab Jew" (and ethnicly , from all classical communities, Jews are far more realted to the Arabs than to the germans) which came -like your deliberately missleading ,poor claims about ethnicity from left wing , post modernist thinkers (several Sephardi Jews which are clearly not represent the very most of the Mizrachi and Sephardi commuinites-and it is not only an assumption-it was drawn by mant studies) .Sure, Italian or german which immigrate to USA can be cosiderd as Americans-but their his ethnicity will stay Italian (does i really have to explain it to you? or you just delibertaly refuse to understand?) whats wrong about that...is it make him less good person?????In the same way -A Jew which immigrate from Israel to England , and his descendents from there to USA and then to Australia -are keeping only one ethnic identity constant-the Jewish one.you are raciset if you think that someone ethnic identity is being delete while he living in other country in which his ancetors didnt came from.-- Gilisa 07:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
"..Not even the Nazi's claimed that, especially not in the later years.." really?? are you sure?? i do know about mixed origin germans (i.e half Jewish or quarter Jewish-they calld "Mishlinga (you probably know to spell it better as it is a German word ,insulting when it refer to humans , as it usually referd to mixed dogs)) that been forced to serve in the German army but was excuted by many in the end of the war.More , it was manily peopole with German mother and so their mother had to decleare that the child is not from the Jewish husband... this is a strange comparsion any way since what important is what nazis done and any way it is clearly very fer from me.-- Gilisa 16:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
One can have more then one ethnic identity but it not depends on the culture in which you were grown.thats why there are such a things like "Afro American" and countless ethnic groups which live inside countries that are dominated by other ethnic groups -this is a valid fact. Best-- Gilisa 18:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This kind of quastions you used ,calld: beeing provocative (and you allready put me a warning for saying that opinion-who can it fits with democratic discussion? and in any aspect i didnt mean to that you did it on purpose or to be personal-so why did you put me a warning??)
you used this quastion: "I don't understand. Do you think one be a German without being an “Aryan”? It's a simple yes or no question." which looks to me provokative( and i assumed good faith as i )explend here-but ,again,you choose to put me awarning insted of answer it.
The"Aryan" is aprovocative word and it takes all of my claims out of the context because it means , as it used in Nazi-Germany , that the ethnic Germans are better , not only them -but all of the north european original ethnicitis
.The nazis ignore the different history of each group (which is of a slight difference if you compared it with the historical differnce between Jews and Germans) and the differnte self definition of each group.They claim that any body who fit the racial definitions is a suprior human.
More, they made racial tests (i.e,hair texture,hair color,skin color,height ,face figurs, phsycal body structure , eyes color and etc) which send purly ethnic Germans to concentration camps (i.e they send Germans that look like they are of a Jewish or Gipsy ancestry , retierds, cripels , mental ill pepole and etc) and on the other hand took Russin and Polish childs (which according to their twisted definitions came from an inferior race in general , i.e the slavik race)and state that they are Aryans because they pass the race test with great success.
I guess that you know all of this very well ,and you also know that i never claimed that the ethnic origin make somebody to be suprior or inferior -but when you use the word "Aryan" you make me sound like that, and thats why i referd to this quastion as a potentialy provocative. (the bold is for importance and not for shuting).
So why are you still implied to a connection between my definition of ethnic origin (which is by far the most common) to a racisem??(and just for your knowledge you are doing that inevitably when you are using the word Arayn...not only that , you also strongly implies that im a racist with your second quastion: "...Perhaps the Nazis didn't claim that, but unless I misunderstand him, Gilisa does. That seems to be precisely the crux of our disagreement with him: he defines ethnicity as a purely racial matter. Is that right, Gilisa?.." and so i strongl suggest that you delete your unjustified warnings against me).
I think that if you take a minute to think about that you will find this claims/suggestions to be unfair and from a kind that shouldnt take place.
I just claim that it is highly offensive to credit the germans (and by doing that causing to discredit the Jews-wheter you want it or not) for somhting which is just not true.
for many Jews it is offensive to hear that einstein was equally ethnic geramn and ethnic Jew-while he wasnt an ethnic German at all.
Yes, i think that someone who wasnt born as a Jew will never be an ethnic one -but there are many converts to Judaism which are very much part of the Jewish peopole , and like that i think that someone who wasnt born to an ethnic german will never be a one (and it depend on the German peopole wheter they consider some one who adopt there culture as "German"-but ethnicly he is not a one).
It look to me that you make a wrong and missleading connection ,out of the context , between my claims that Einstein was an ethnic Jew and not a German one -and racisem (acctually , its on the contrary).
And so, i suggest that you refrese your quastions -since im quite the opposite of beeing racist in any aspect and this kind of quastions is sounds provoking and missleading.
Acctually,speaking with all the cards on the table , in the first time that i read them i had no intention to aswer your qaustions-but now , after i read your last comment to me on my tallk page, i assume good faith and i will answer your quastion: an ethnic Jew is a desecndent for the "sons of Israel" (בני ישראל "Bnney Israel") , i.e, the pepole which were exiled from Israel -as all the Jewish ethnic groups in there vast majority answering this definition it refers to all of them.If, for example, Einstein granfather was a German that convert to judaism -you could state that Einstein had German ethnic roots-but he wasnt...-- Gilisa 18:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Now,afetr you read my revised comment-please delete any warning that you put upon me.I feel like you adopt a new method of shuting me-but there is nothing personal or uncivilzied in my comment-so,just move it and stop sending me a warning any time you dont understand or dont like something that i wrote. Best-- Gilisa 07:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
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Okay! I am outa here! Good luck, and many thanks to my quiet supporters (you know who you are). Please pardon the mess and disruption, and thank you all for all I've learned through the Albert Einstein ordeal. ~ Otterpops 23:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
First, i have to appologize about my English. I have deleted the "German" from Einstein ethnic clause. TEB728 is systamticly go against it -with out giving any any good expalnation -he just dont want Einstein to be a Jew. As i allready told to Teb, and he delete my quots from his tallk page -when he run out of exuses, a Turkish which born in Germany is not an ethnic German....there is very big difference between the culture in which sombody was grown to and between his ethnic identity.According to the absurd claim of TEB i could, for example, to live in Cuba but to be considerd as an ethnic German since I was raisd upon the German culture...no body claim that Einstein was an ethnic german .Acctually ,einstein was expelld from germany since he wasn a one- in every objective sense in which you consider to test it:from history to biology...An ethnic identity is no body to decide-its forced on every human since beeing in the womb. But TAB,and God know his reasons, just keeping doing that -ignoring the facts.
You should look my claims against TEB728 ,which he deleted without answering (to my last claim HagermanBot get involved and told TEB728 that i didnt sign my last, and the less important , messege...Very good exuses....)
Now plese look at my answers and claims to TEB728 :
Dear TEB728 - - The nazis said ,once upon the time, that only an arian or ethnic German could be a citizen of the third rich.Einstein, like many other prominent Jewish scienticts, was expelled from Germany since he wasnt an ethnic German. When you refer to him as an "ethnic" German you mean that it acctually was his historical origin-and it wasnt...In the same way, you wouldnt refer to any German citizen which is of a Turkish ancestry as an "ethnic German" I would ask you to understand that Jewishness is not only a matter of relligion , but it also an ethnic group as well -in any aspect you choose to test it :from history to biology.More, I dont understood how a man which is not of a mixed origin can be realted to 2 very different ethnic groups.Einstein state himself (nor did it matter for the facts about his true and only ethnic origin) after Hitler's rise to power:"If this is Germany,I am not a German any more"(he never came back from his words).And finally, it think that you shoyld know a litle a bout the welding of the German ethnic identity before you state that he was a German ("... The ethnogenesis of the Germanic tribes is assumed to have occurred during the Nordic Bronze Age, or at the latest, during the Pre-Roman Iron Age. From southern Scandinavia and northern Germany, the tribes began expanding south, east and west in the first century BC, coming into contact with the Celtic tribes of Gaul and Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic tribes in Eastern Europe.." [2])*. and not only you did it, you also put it over his Jewish ethnic origin. I deleted the "German" from the Albert Einstein ethnic clause -and I hope it will stay like that.-- Gilisa 08:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC) - - consensus??????????????????????????
- - Since when the facts are for democratic vote???? and the culture from which he was affected mean nothing for the ethnic origin which is undepented.I understand that you dont like to mention his Jewishness,but he was an ethnic Jew...-- Gilisa 12:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC) -
and again - - You wouldny claim that a person from the Turkish community in Germany is an ethnic german-even if he were influenced from the German culture.And if you do-its just dont true.(THIS WAS MY LAST COMMENT TO HIM-WHICH I FORGOT TO SIGN)
This is an insult to every jew and espesically to thus whos servive the holocast been done by the ethnic Germans -TEB728 is going delivertly agains the facts!!!. -- Gilisa 06:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
It is very well mentioned in the table that he was raised in Germany -and this is enough.There are several ethnic groups in Germany and allmost in any country , and the ethnic origin is invaribaly refers to the historical roots of which every Human have, you should know that, so the ethnic origin of an Arab, for example, who was raised in china -is still Arabic .So this is completly wrong to mention Einstein as an ethnic German.-- Gilisa 09:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear TEB728
I never claimed that culturly he wasnt infulenced by the german culture-or even been culturle one. I Just said that he wasnt an ethnic german ,there is a big differnce between the two-i hope that you at last can agree with me on that .
Using the Caps had no intention to shut or beeing rude I just didnt rememberd this part in Wikipedia policy , and more , it was because to me it looks like you ignoring my claims.
And Einstien statmnet clearly dont implay that he was an ethnic German (this is an Objective fact even throw it is not neccery to mention it because he explicity admited his ethnic origin as beeing Jewish-and i dont remeber the exact statmnet in which he said it) but it can implay that he was culturly one (and abndoned it ,at least ,formaly)-if you want to add a clause about his culture-i have no objection...
and another thing: Einstein ones said that a Jew remain a Jew eve if he convert or dont consider himself as one.this refers to ethnic backgroud which is arbitrary.So,when he said that he "is not longer German" it mean that he never consider himself as an ethnic one...So,even he himself admit it...
-- Gilisa 10:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't Cornelius Lanczos included? And according to Dover Press's bio Peter G. Bergmann was one of his students, too.
So when you all are quite through generating more heat than light with discussions confusing ethnicity with nationality, please consider updating the list of his famous students (near the bottom of the article) with these students/coworkers/assistants of Einstein.
For that matter, if you want to broaden the category to famous coworkers/associates, you should include Paul Ehrenfest, too. 204.119.233.210 22:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, just dropped back in to tell you guys this: I had a very distinct memory of my Physics 2010 (CU Boulder 1995) describing (and answering a student question on) the use of stimulated emmission (which produces a photon from the nucleus while the introduced photon is fully accounted for) in overcoming binding energy to initiate the chain reaction in nuclear fission. So many of you said "Huh?" that I looked up my old professor to double check. He's gone from CU Physics now, so I sent an e-mail to the two others teaching 2010 nowadays (an adjunct and an associate prof) to ask them if I remembered correctly. Only one answered, Michael Dubson, and he says nope, it's not the case. So I apologize and I bow to your objections, not because you wanted it that way but because you were right! Here's what Dubson had to say on the matter:
No, Einstein's work on stimulated emission had
no direct effect on the development of the A-bomb. Stimulated emission has nothing to do with the A-bomb chain reaction (which involved neutrons). Actually, none of Einstein's work had any *direct* bearing on the design and development of the A-bomb. Contrary to popular opinion, the formula E=mc^2 had no more influence on the design of the A-bomb than it did on the design of refrigerators. Einstein's influence is almost everywhere in modern science, but it is often indirect. Einstein's work laid the foundations for 20th century physics, which produced lasers, transistors, and A-bombs. Einstein worked on none of these things directly, but all of them can all be traced back to Einstein's work. It is as if Einstein invented bricks, concrete, and steel. Other people went on to design and build cities. Feel free to quote me. -cheerio, Mike
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Otterpops ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC).
What was Albert Einstein's middle name? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LILLYofTHEsouth ( talk • contribs).
One wonders about some of the huge list of "Books about Einstein". In particular, does the Hawking & Mlodinow book really talk about Einstein as such, or is it like Hawking's other books and merely contains a different interpretation of relativity theory. If the latter, then it doesn't belong in this list (although it may be appropriate for one of the technical articles). — DAGwyn 08:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The current article's "General relativity" section first of all discusses things other than general relativity, but more importantly, it doesn't seem to anywhere state that in 1915 Einstein published his theory of general relativity in essentially final form. — DAGwyn 19:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I've just run into this article [4] claiming that in his Special Theory of Relativity, Einstein essentially represents work already developed by Poincare, Lorenz and others as his own; that his paper of 1905 lists no references to earlier work in which the famous formula E = mc^2 appears, nor any references to prior work at all.
If someone can verify these assertions, they may be worth incorporating into the Wikipedia article. Best regards, Duality Rules 23:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
In the Dover Press book on General Relativity by Torretti, "Relativity and Geometry", Torretti covers this topic in some detail. It is clear from that coverage that the accusation of plagiarism is simply not true. Rather, it fails to understand the key difference between Poincaré's theory, which could _not_ break with the notion of an absolute ether, and Einstein's, which introduced a new constant of nature (the speed of light in vacuo) and dispensed with the 19th century notion of an absolute ether.
So the nexus magazine article you cite has failed to understand this fundamental difference.
Finally, one of the interesting things about Torretti's coverage is that he speculates that such accusations of plagiarism get a lot of momentum from Poincaré's own shock at being outdone by a 'mere' patent clerk! To the end of his life, he could not get over this. 204.119.233.210 22:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The arguments above, that Einstein was completely different from Lorentz and Poincare (and incidentally Larmor), abolishing the ether, different point of view, importance of symmetry etc, is not an answer to why there are no references in the 1905 paper. By today's standards the only proper answer to that question is that Einstein did not know of those papers; if he did he know of them he should have commented on those earlier papers and show why his was different from them. If the modern system of review before publications was in place then, the referee might well have been Lorentz, the expert in the field of electrodynamics at the time, but if it were another expert, that expert would insist on a re-write to clarify what was different about the paper. So the question is "Did Einstein know the papers?" So if Torretti is really only interested in why Einstein is different and better then he has missed the point, in my opinion. Of course, this assumes anyone cares anymore, but apparently some people do care. E4mmacro 05:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The interesting point form a history of science point of view is how bad or non-existent the reviewing system for Journals must have been then. A modern journal would be very disappointed if it published a major paper which derives a set of equations which were already published eight years previously (in 1897 by Sir Joseph Larmor for the Lorentz transformations) and never refers to that work. It would want a re-write before publication, putting the work in context. E4mmacro 05:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I believe that Albert Einstein's nationality tag should be changed immediately to 'Swiss-American' for the several reasons which I will now explain:
For those reasons I will change the nationality tag immediately.
Cypriot stud 18:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the two relevant questions to ask when deciding how Einstein's nationality/ethnicity should be described in the opening sentence is first: What best describes the man? Second: how did his origins affected his legacy? From what I can tell, Einstein's Swiss and American citizenships were more pragmatic than personal, and more incidental than influential, so I don't think they belong in the opening sentence. Further, they did not necessarily have a dramatic effect on his impact in history. I would argue that his being German-BORN was significant, and that his being a jew is signficant (for reasons I've already elaborated upon pretty extensively, so I'll not regurgitate them other than to mention that I don't think anyone has made any substantial counter argument to them so far) but despite being an American myself I don't find his American citizenship particularly noteworthy, nor do I think his Swiss citizenship tells us much about Einstein as a person or historical figure that we don't already learn by noting he was a German-born jew. Geeman 23:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
User: Starnold recently wanted Einstein’s religion to be listed in the infobox as “ Pantheist, does not believe in a personal God.” User: Prep111 wanted it to be “ Jewish (non-observant ).” These are just two instances of why his religion is too complex to summarize in the infobox. We discussed this issue at length in an archived section of this talk page. -- teb728 00:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Einstein was a difficult person, it's fact, but he always said: "I don't believe in a personal god." And he also said: "I believe in Spinoza's God". He was a pantheist and nonbeliever of a personal God. He didn't like atheism. -- Starnold 15:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Although I remain skeptical of mentioning Einstein’s Jewish nationality in the first paragraph and quite opposed to mentioning his Swiss and American citizenships there, I think it might be a good thing to list his Jewish nationality in the Nationality field of the infobox. I wonder if Geeman and Epson291 would be content with that. The difference between the infobox and the first paragraph is that the infobox is a list: As such it doesn’t need to be good prose and it is easy to skip over information that one is not interested in. I am thinking of a Nationality entry like this:
An archived poll here voted to include only citizenship in this field, but perhaps that issue might be reopened. -- teb728 22:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
To user, user:DAGwyn, as for your comment about people wanting to claim him as his own, I would think so, concidering his contributions, if it was say, Émile Durkheim or one of the many famous Europeans (who just happened to be Jewish), and whose being a Jew had nothing to do with their life or notability , I would definitely argue for it not to be in the opening paragrah (rather in their biography of growing up). However, Einstein is notable for his continued contributions to the Jewish people, which was a big part of what he did later in his life. The word "Jew" would give proper respect to that. I object to "German-born" being the only mention in the opening paragraph, since it is not simply that he was just "German-born" and then moved around a lot. I would not object to "German-born" or just German, if other mentions were made. (Are there any quotes to how he felt about his "Germaness" after his German citizenship was taken from him, or later in his life?) I object to it being the only mention since it disorts the picture of reality. As for the German pronounciation, a confused reader, would find out later in the article the reason for that. It is not different from a user getting confused by the singular German mention. (An American English pronounciation, should likely be included as well, since he became an English speaking naturalized American citizen for the rest of his life) Epson291 07:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Should we move the quotes to wikiquote and provide a link at the relevent point? It would help 'streamline' the article Jnb 14:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I've been away from this article for a bit, but I really don't think it was a good idea to gut the religious views section. This is an important matter in the contemporary debate - Dawkins devotes a whole chapter on it in The God Delusion and we need the (carefully amassed) evidence here. FWIW I also think we need to slow down the massive number of changes esp by a single editor. NBeale 06:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi DAGwyn. It is completely untrue that religion played a negligible part in his life! Even Richard Dawkins knows this! Have you read Subtle is the Lord?? "By his own definition, Einstein himself was, of coruse, a deeply relgious person." (Pais, 1982 p 319) NBeale 07:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Keep it as is. Its fine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.187.72.3 ( talk)
It seems to me that User:Epson291 is adding more photos than are needed, particularly since some of them are questionable in the fair use department. In particularly the pictures of Einstein playing the violin, with Eban, and with Ben-Gurion do not contribute significantly to the article, as required by the Wikipedia fair use policy. (In contrast a plausible fair-use rationale can be made for the use of the Time cover and the picture of the Einstein memorial, for example, in that they illustrate the mentions in the text of the Person of the Century award and the memorial.) -- teb728 23:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
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I've found that cleaning up the grammar, removing redundancies and reserving the in-depth descriptions and critiques of Annus Mirabilis Papers for the
Annus Mirabilis Papers article (although they were very well written) has knocked about 10kb off the article.
I've only gotten to the section entitled "General Relativity" so far, no links checked, and still inconsistent about native v. English translations of organizations. I'll be back to work on it tomorrow.
~
Otterpops 18:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
This paragraph replaced a post by a banned user. In relevant part he noted the removal of the link to Relativity priority dispute and the names of other scientists mentioned there. -- teb728 09:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Urban legend says that Einstein was a lowly patent office drone when he wrote the A.M. Papers that eventually got him the Nobel, but putting the chronology together I'm starting to understand that he was actually a PhD student (ABD at that) when he published them in a very prestigious journal where he had published before. (This is plenty remarkable, as any ABD will tell you.)
I'm getting the impression that Einstein couldn't get TA-ships because he annoyed professors but had to keep supporting his family while he was in grad school so he got the job at the patent office while doing the PhD, it was an after-school job (also plenty remarkable). As it reads now the article implies that as soon as he published those four papers in 1905 (as if Annalin der Physic took manuscripts over the transom) he was boom granted a PhD by the University of Zurich.
Anyone have good info from one of the bios that talks about what PhD programs he applied to, when he applied to them, in what subjects, and how he ended up at Universitait Zurich? I did find a quick note in the article on his advisor that mentions Einstein quarreling with his first advisor and changing horses midstream.
Reality checking... ~
Otterpops 19:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Not sure how 1905 Swiss universities worked at the time, but to get a PhD in the US today, a person applies to (is sponsored into) a program bcz s/he is potentially a desirable member of the advisor's research team. S/he then takes classes for about three semesters but also works as an instructor (a TA) for a tiny salary plus "considerations" (tuition waiver plus health insurance, usually). When the classes are finished, the person takes a nasty series of written and oral exams called "comps" (comprehensive examinations). When the comps are passed, the person is "ABD" (All But Dissertation) and begins writing a giant torturous paper or more likely series of papers on one topic (the dissertation) including original publishable research that makes a master's thesis look like a book report. A person might be ABD for years and years, a student in perfectly good standing without taking any classes at all (they register for "thesis hours" listing their advisor as the instructor). The long dissertation is sometimes wise because that means s/he has access to university research facilities, equipment and staff with only Teaching Assistant responsibilities.
Academia is a weird world with its own jargon, I'm trying to find good ways to communicate accurately to people living in it at the same time as being clear for people who have no reason to know anything about it. I'll have another look at that wording to see if it can be put better. ~
Otterpops 22:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Two different universities? Oh my goodness. I don't have an Einstein bio lying around, can someone who does dump some info into that section? Changing advisor (research project) is one thing but quitting a PhD program in one school to move to another school is something else. I never looked at a map to see how far Bern was from Zurich...yes, I did assume he was commuting. He wouldn't have had to show his face at the campus daily if he wasn't taking classes, but still, holy moly. My only point was that universities don't spontaneously hand people PhDs on account of smartness (oh if only they did!) ~ Otterpops 16:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Do you think the chronology is wrong? If you want to get some solid references on date of graduation from PhD program, etc. that would be terrific. Put them in and I'll integrate (and correct my misunderstandings) when I do the reference-check sweep.
~
Otterpops 16:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
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Mostly organization today, coming back to work on Dangerous Politics section more tomorrow. ~ Otterpops 22:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I have removed "probabilistic interpretation of quantum theory" which is linked to the 'copenhagen interpretation'. I feel that this is more of a intellectual dispute rather than a major contribution - particularly in comparison with his groundbreaking "annus mirabilis" papers. The 'unified field theory' was an ambition rather than an achievement. Overall I feel that the introduction could be improved, so that users without a background in quantum physics have a smooth start. Inwind 02:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The EPR Paradox not only has an article of its own, it's covered in-depth in the Bohr-Einstein Debates article (which links to the EPR article). EPR Paradox has virtually no meaning (let alone significance) to a person with an ordinay college education and because its importance is apparent only in the context of the debate (the intricacies of and explanations for which there is no room for in the "Albert Einstein" biography article) I had to take this newly introduced section out. I'm so sorry, please don't be hurt, your contribution was and is valuable. Could you maybe go to work on the "Bohr-Einstein Debates"? I think that one needs an educated eye.
Please understand that this article is much too large, and was becoming incomprehensible to the everyday reader. A newspaper article is written at a 6th grade reading level, and I'm attempting to edit this Albert Einstein bio to a Liberal Arts BA level.
Thanks for the offered help. Say...if you have any Einstein books laying around the house, could you check some of these "fact"-tagged dates and quotes? That would be a huge help.
~
Otterpops 20:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I can't intuit how to put it back in after the section about Einstein being offered the presidency of Israel in "Dangerous Politics". I can look up how to do it, but is there anyone more on the ball than me who can just pop it back in? ~ Otterpops 21:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! I think it adds because it shows Einstein as a kind of founding father of a country, not just a pop hero. It's also a quick way of showing the info instead of adding in an awkward sentence about "Einstein's portrait appears on Israeli paper money between the years Y and Z". ~ Otterpops 16:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh. Good point. Do you want it gone? Or moved? I haven't gotten to the "Honors" section yet, that might work better and look more natural. ~ Otterpops 22:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
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Organization, language, globalization, historical clarification for "Dangerous Politics". Have not checked links, will do tomorrow. ~ Otterpops 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is it believed that when Einstein was in highschool the grading scale was suddenly reversed? I do not understand where this information comes from and why such a change would happen, neither is it noted in the article. Naturally, the scale is 1-6 with 1 being the highest at the Luitpold Gymnasium and it is to this day, so why was it reversed to begin with? And what of the quote, "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Though this isn't proof enough, neither is merely stating that he was a good student. unsigned comment was added by 139.182.13.148 talk • contribs 02:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
When comparing the Einstein page to the Carl Gauss page its very apparent that this needs a lot of work. There is no discussion about the subjects of his 1905 papers nor its impact on the field of physics. Nor is there any discussion about the problems that he worked on in any serious matter. All in all you dont really get a feel for why Einsten is considered to be one of the greatest physicists of all time from this write up. unsigned comment was added by Zaidkhalil ( talk • contribs) 08:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Copy edit turned into writing a section, this may duplicate linked articles but I'm out of energy and will have to check and pare it down tomorrow. Dont proofread yet, please. ~ Otterpops 21:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
IMO the article was better without the so called “desecration” part. Maybe it should be moved to Thomas Stoltz Harvey and/or relegated to an extended footnote to a statement that some investigators found differences in the brain and others none. As it is, it is an irrelevant, lurid (and borderline POV in its criticism of Harvey) detail in an overly long article. -- teb728 23:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
'Desecration' is going to go but I haven't figured out a better way to put that yet. Any suggestions? The two reasons for that passage (after the one about his death) are to account for all the common knowledge info about how his brain differed from others, and also to include the info that yes, his brain was stolen, it wasn't just a rumor even though it sounds like one.
What about "
Albert Einstein's brain was removed from his body and preserved, but it was several decades before neuroscience progressed to a point where examination of it could provide any fruitful...etc. etc." and mention Marian Diamond by name because she was the first? In other words, get the link in there but don't touch it otherwise?
~
Otterpops 14:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The changes of the last few days look awful, on the whole. The article no longer makes sense at all and several sections are totally gutted and have ridiculous titles. Good job, guys. Compare the most recent version with the one from six days ago. Even the table of contents looks better on the other one. I vote to restore it, no offense Otterpops but it is a mess at the moment. Headings like "The patent office job" look both unencyclopedic, unprofessional, and silly. And at the moment there is NO explanation in this article of why anyone gave a damn about his 1905 papers! Obviously we can have a whole article devoted to the details but any reasonable person would expect to be able to at least understand that these fundamentally bucked the status quo and had all sorts of startling conclusions!! And his rise to fame and prominence is covered in one sentence?!?! I also love the complete overkill on the "citation needed" — apparently every single sentence needs a citation, even ones which are their own source (i.e. the description of the London Times headline.
The article was a mess before, true enough, but now it is a disgrace and a tragedy. If it is not restored it just means that someone will have to rewrite it all in the future—it is fundamentally unacceptable and does not at all reflect any real understanding of the subject or what is important about it. Its current state is embarassing and amateurish. Again, no offense Otterpops, but I think you are in a little over your head here and I don't think it has been positive. We all have things we are good at writing about and we all have things we would bungle. -- 24.147.86.187 03:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
What's the reasoning behind linking each date and year? Once the info is added to the
The Timetables of History-style articles, does it need to stay linked? Curious readers can look for a year or a date in the Search: "Hmm, but what else was going on that year...was that before or after the explosion of the Hindenburg?"
~
Otterpops 06:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The chronology is in place, also overall structure of the article - no further really alarming changes coming at you. Working through Manual of Style, standardizing and checking notes, references, and links now. Have at it.
~
Otterpops 10:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
you spelled traveling wrong! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.63.203.240 ( talk • contribs) 04:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Writing by Einstein himself on General and Special Relativity (two articles) is available at the Gutenburg Project website, his own words. Doesn't seem like it should be just a footnote (External Link, actually) but I'm not sure of the best place to either mention it, see-also, or link it. Suggestions? This would be the best explanation of all for the physicists around here.
~
Otterpops 17:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
While cleaning up 'External Links' links, I found sources for some uncited assertions, also looks like one user was clipping sentences right out of the pages listed there. If anyone feels like learning ALL ABOUT Albert Einstein, it would be a worthy project to spend some time with those articles and then add attributions, paraphrase and/or quote marks, and citations for the information we stole from them.
~
Otterpops 19:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Why are we switching from one of the 3 MOS approved citation systems to another? It seems to me that Wikipedia:Footnotes read better than Wikipedia:Harvard referencing. -- teb728 23:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
6 is not the highest possible mark. It is the lowest on a scale of 1-6 commonly used in German, Austrian and Swiss grading systems, from what I learned in German class. Nesbittk 14:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
There is available a pretty good obit on the greatest physicist of all time at the NYT... if someone with edit rights on the locked article deems to include it under External Links:
Obituary, NY Times, April 19, 1955, Dr. Albert Einstein Dies in Sleep at 76; World Mourns Loss of Great Scientist 68.228.70.223 14:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The nazis said ,once upon the time, that only an arian or ethnic German could be a citizen of the third rich.Einstein, like many other prominent Jewish scienticts, was expelled from Germany since he wasnt an ethnic German. When you refer to him as an "ethnic" German you mean that it acctually was his historical origin-and it wasnt...In the same way, you wouldnt refer to any German citizen which is of a Turkish ancestry as an "ethnic German" I would ask you to understand that Jewishness is not only a matter of relligion , but it also an ethnic group as well -in any aspect you choose to test it :from history to biology.More, I dont understood how a man which is not of a mixed origin can be realted to 2 very different ethnic groups.Einstein state himself (nor did it matter for the facts about his true and only ethnic origin) after Hitler's rise to power:"If this is Germany,I am not a German any more"(he never came back from his words).And finally, it think that you shoyld know a litle a bout the welding of the German ethnic identity before you state that he was a German ("... The ethnogenesis of the Germanic tribes is assumed to have occurred during the Nordic Bronze Age, or at the latest, during the Pre-Roman Iron Age. From southern Scandinavia and northern Germany, the tribes began expanding south, east and west in the first century BC, coming into contact with the Celtic tribes of Gaul and Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic tribes in Eastern Europe..".-and not only you did it, you also put it over his Jewish ethnic origin. I deleted the "German" from the Albert Einstein ethnic clause -and I hope it will stay like that.-- Gilisa 08:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Since when the facts are for democratic vote???? and the culture from which he was affected mean nothing for the ethnic origin which is undepented.I understand that you dont like to mention his Jewishness,but he was an ethnic Jew...-- Gilisa 12:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
You wouldny claim that a person from the Turkish community in Germany is an ethnic german-even if he were influenced from the German culture.And if you do-its just dont true. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gilisa ( talk • contribs) 12:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
--copied from my talk page teb728 19:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Your claims about the ethnic origin are beat about the bush.In the common sense, an ethnic origin refers to the people from which someone historclly came from.True,it involve with heritage and ancestry defintions but not with RACISEM (i.e the German nazis made alot of crimes, one was to categorize humans as deserve or not deserve to live according to their own ethnic identity which was there much before Hitler and will stay there much after him)!!!and thats the big difference.If you want to redefine the meaning of "ethnic origin"-dont do it on the back of the Jewish people.My father was from a long German Jewish ancestry ,He acctually born there -speak the language -and knew the culture-like any body who born there:Turkish,African,Russian -and etc and didnt became being an ethnic Germans he stayed an ethnic Jew-nothing else.In the case of the Jewish people which were forced to establish their communities outside their own historical homeland -its even stronger.Objectivly, refering Einstein as an ethnic German is bad for the true, bad for Wikipedia , and just a provocing act.-- Gilisa 11:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Stop your demagoig claims-THE ONES WHO FOLLOW THE NAZIS ARE THUS WHICH TRY TO ELIMNATE AND TO DELETE ANY MENTION FOR EINSTEIN ETHNIC ORIGIN!!!FOLLOW THE NAZIS MEAN TO DEFIND PEOPOLE AS BAD OR GOOD FOR THEIR RACE ,TO CITE GREAT MAN LIKE EINSTEIN AS A JEW IS ON THE OPPOSITE FROM THE NAZIS. the ethnic origin have nothing to do with Hitler. according your claims:since Hitler it is forbiden to consider Jewishness as an ethnic origin-or, there is no Jewish ethnic origin....we should denay that there is such a thing as Jews and this is a different origin...I feel no guilty to cite Einstein as a Jew.Jew which convert himself is still from Jewsih ethnic origin -the problem is with the anti semic Europeans which make it to a problem-not with me , and i have no intention pay for their own crimes by changing the facts.More, i get support from many Jews all over the world - might be they are all nazis?is that what you said MR Schulz?-- Gilisa 18:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
If you are trying to win this disscussion by asking provok , unrealted quastions then I dont have to clearfy nothing to you or to schultz-you are doing it on purpose ,but: I can be a German citizen , yes , but it doesnt change my ethnicity - only the nazis , and there followers, said that someone who want to be a german citizen and\ or to live must being an ethnic german . When people tallking about the ethnic origin they refer to the historicl nation of which someone came from.schultz-I guess you are a german-sorry to say, but the german culture for which Einstein grown to was the culture that made the holocaust...so even if the ethnic origin was based on the culture -and it is a pure lie to say so ,to put someone which is from the Jewish nation as a german is only a provocing act. More, i know much more about Jews then you peopole know (i.e im a Jewish myself , living all my life between Jews) and the very most of the Jewish peopole which , for example, came from Arab countries are strongly against the notion of "Arab Jew" (and ethnicly , from all classical communities, Jews are far more realted to the Arabs than to the germans) which came -like your deliberately missleading ,poor claims about ethnicity from left wing , post modernist thinkers (several Sephardi Jews which are clearly not represent the very most of the Mizrachi and Sephardi commuinites-and it is not only an assumption-it was drawn by mant studies) .Sure, Italian or german which immigrate to USA can be cosiderd as Americans-but their his ethnicity will stay Italian (does i really have to explain it to you? or you just delibertaly refuse to understand?) whats wrong about that...is it make him less good person?????In the same way -A Jew which immigrate from Israel to England , and his descendents from there to USA and then to Australia -are keeping only one ethnic identity constant-the Jewish one.you are raciset if you think that someone ethnic identity is being delete while he living in other country in which his ancetors didnt came from.-- Gilisa 07:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
"..Not even the Nazi's claimed that, especially not in the later years.." really?? are you sure?? i do know about mixed origin germans (i.e half Jewish or quarter Jewish-they calld "Mishlinga (you probably know to spell it better as it is a German word ,insulting when it refer to humans , as it usually referd to mixed dogs)) that been forced to serve in the German army but was excuted by many in the end of the war.More , it was manily peopole with German mother and so their mother had to decleare that the child is not from the Jewish husband... this is a strange comparsion any way since what important is what nazis done and any way it is clearly very fer from me.-- Gilisa 16:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
One can have more then one ethnic identity but it not depends on the culture in which you were grown.thats why there are such a things like "Afro American" and countless ethnic groups which live inside countries that are dominated by other ethnic groups -this is a valid fact. Best-- Gilisa 18:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This kind of quastions you used ,calld: beeing provocative (and you allready put me a warning for saying that opinion-who can it fits with democratic discussion? and in any aspect i didnt mean to that you did it on purpose or to be personal-so why did you put me a warning??)
you used this quastion: "I don't understand. Do you think one be a German without being an “Aryan”? It's a simple yes or no question." which looks to me provokative( and i assumed good faith as i )explend here-but ,again,you choose to put me awarning insted of answer it.
The"Aryan" is aprovocative word and it takes all of my claims out of the context because it means , as it used in Nazi-Germany , that the ethnic Germans are better , not only them -but all of the north european original ethnicitis
.The nazis ignore the different history of each group (which is of a slight difference if you compared it with the historical differnce between Jews and Germans) and the differnte self definition of each group.They claim that any body who fit the racial definitions is a suprior human.
More, they made racial tests (i.e,hair texture,hair color,skin color,height ,face figurs, phsycal body structure , eyes color and etc) which send purly ethnic Germans to concentration camps (i.e they send Germans that look like they are of a Jewish or Gipsy ancestry , retierds, cripels , mental ill pepole and etc) and on the other hand took Russin and Polish childs (which according to their twisted definitions came from an inferior race in general , i.e the slavik race)and state that they are Aryans because they pass the race test with great success.
I guess that you know all of this very well ,and you also know that i never claimed that the ethnic origin make somebody to be suprior or inferior -but when you use the word "Aryan" you make me sound like that, and thats why i referd to this quastion as a potentialy provocative. (the bold is for importance and not for shuting).
So why are you still implied to a connection between my definition of ethnic origin (which is by far the most common) to a racisem??(and just for your knowledge you are doing that inevitably when you are using the word Arayn...not only that , you also strongly implies that im a racist with your second quastion: "...Perhaps the Nazis didn't claim that, but unless I misunderstand him, Gilisa does. That seems to be precisely the crux of our disagreement with him: he defines ethnicity as a purely racial matter. Is that right, Gilisa?.." and so i strongl suggest that you delete your unjustified warnings against me).
I think that if you take a minute to think about that you will find this claims/suggestions to be unfair and from a kind that shouldnt take place.
I just claim that it is highly offensive to credit the germans (and by doing that causing to discredit the Jews-wheter you want it or not) for somhting which is just not true.
for many Jews it is offensive to hear that einstein was equally ethnic geramn and ethnic Jew-while he wasnt an ethnic German at all.
Yes, i think that someone who wasnt born as a Jew will never be an ethnic one -but there are many converts to Judaism which are very much part of the Jewish peopole , and like that i think that someone who wasnt born to an ethnic german will never be a one (and it depend on the German peopole wheter they consider some one who adopt there culture as "German"-but ethnicly he is not a one).
It look to me that you make a wrong and missleading connection ,out of the context , between my claims that Einstein was an ethnic Jew and not a German one -and racisem (acctually , its on the contrary).
And so, i suggest that you refrese your quastions -since im quite the opposite of beeing racist in any aspect and this kind of quastions is sounds provoking and missleading.
Acctually,speaking with all the cards on the table , in the first time that i read them i had no intention to aswer your qaustions-but now , after i read your last comment to me on my tallk page, i assume good faith and i will answer your quastion: an ethnic Jew is a desecndent for the "sons of Israel" (בני ישראל "Bnney Israel") , i.e, the pepole which were exiled from Israel -as all the Jewish ethnic groups in there vast majority answering this definition it refers to all of them.If, for example, Einstein granfather was a German that convert to judaism -you could state that Einstein had German ethnic roots-but he wasnt...-- Gilisa 18:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Now,afetr you read my revised comment-please delete any warning that you put upon me.I feel like you adopt a new method of shuting me-but there is nothing personal or uncivilzied in my comment-so,just move it and stop sending me a warning any time you dont understand or dont like something that i wrote. Best-- Gilisa 07:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
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Okay! I am outa here! Good luck, and many thanks to my quiet supporters (you know who you are). Please pardon the mess and disruption, and thank you all for all I've learned through the Albert Einstein ordeal. ~ Otterpops 23:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
First, i have to appologize about my English. I have deleted the "German" from Einstein ethnic clause. TEB728 is systamticly go against it -with out giving any any good expalnation -he just dont want Einstein to be a Jew. As i allready told to Teb, and he delete my quots from his tallk page -when he run out of exuses, a Turkish which born in Germany is not an ethnic German....there is very big difference between the culture in which sombody was grown to and between his ethnic identity.According to the absurd claim of TEB i could, for example, to live in Cuba but to be considerd as an ethnic German since I was raisd upon the German culture...no body claim that Einstein was an ethnic german .Acctually ,einstein was expelld from germany since he wasn a one- in every objective sense in which you consider to test it:from history to biology...An ethnic identity is no body to decide-its forced on every human since beeing in the womb. But TAB,and God know his reasons, just keeping doing that -ignoring the facts.
You should look my claims against TEB728 ,which he deleted without answering (to my last claim HagermanBot get involved and told TEB728 that i didnt sign my last, and the less important , messege...Very good exuses....)
Now plese look at my answers and claims to TEB728 :
Dear TEB728 - - The nazis said ,once upon the time, that only an arian or ethnic German could be a citizen of the third rich.Einstein, like many other prominent Jewish scienticts, was expelled from Germany since he wasnt an ethnic German. When you refer to him as an "ethnic" German you mean that it acctually was his historical origin-and it wasnt...In the same way, you wouldnt refer to any German citizen which is of a Turkish ancestry as an "ethnic German" I would ask you to understand that Jewishness is not only a matter of relligion , but it also an ethnic group as well -in any aspect you choose to test it :from history to biology.More, I dont understood how a man which is not of a mixed origin can be realted to 2 very different ethnic groups.Einstein state himself (nor did it matter for the facts about his true and only ethnic origin) after Hitler's rise to power:"If this is Germany,I am not a German any more"(he never came back from his words).And finally, it think that you shoyld know a litle a bout the welding of the German ethnic identity before you state that he was a German ("... The ethnogenesis of the Germanic tribes is assumed to have occurred during the Nordic Bronze Age, or at the latest, during the Pre-Roman Iron Age. From southern Scandinavia and northern Germany, the tribes began expanding south, east and west in the first century BC, coming into contact with the Celtic tribes of Gaul and Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic tribes in Eastern Europe.." [2])*. and not only you did it, you also put it over his Jewish ethnic origin. I deleted the "German" from the Albert Einstein ethnic clause -and I hope it will stay like that.-- Gilisa 08:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC) - - consensus??????????????????????????
- - Since when the facts are for democratic vote???? and the culture from which he was affected mean nothing for the ethnic origin which is undepented.I understand that you dont like to mention his Jewishness,but he was an ethnic Jew...-- Gilisa 12:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC) -
and again - - You wouldny claim that a person from the Turkish community in Germany is an ethnic german-even if he were influenced from the German culture.And if you do-its just dont true.(THIS WAS MY LAST COMMENT TO HIM-WHICH I FORGOT TO SIGN)
This is an insult to every jew and espesically to thus whos servive the holocast been done by the ethnic Germans -TEB728 is going delivertly agains the facts!!!. -- Gilisa 06:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
It is very well mentioned in the table that he was raised in Germany -and this is enough.There are several ethnic groups in Germany and allmost in any country , and the ethnic origin is invaribaly refers to the historical roots of which every Human have, you should know that, so the ethnic origin of an Arab, for example, who was raised in china -is still Arabic .So this is completly wrong to mention Einstein as an ethnic German.-- Gilisa 09:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear TEB728
I never claimed that culturly he wasnt infulenced by the german culture-or even been culturle one. I Just said that he wasnt an ethnic german ,there is a big differnce between the two-i hope that you at last can agree with me on that .
Using the Caps had no intention to shut or beeing rude I just didnt rememberd this part in Wikipedia policy , and more , it was because to me it looks like you ignoring my claims.
And Einstien statmnet clearly dont implay that he was an ethnic German (this is an Objective fact even throw it is not neccery to mention it because he explicity admited his ethnic origin as beeing Jewish-and i dont remeber the exact statmnet in which he said it) but it can implay that he was culturly one (and abndoned it ,at least ,formaly)-if you want to add a clause about his culture-i have no objection...
and another thing: Einstein ones said that a Jew remain a Jew eve if he convert or dont consider himself as one.this refers to ethnic backgroud which is arbitrary.So,when he said that he "is not longer German" it mean that he never consider himself as an ethnic one...So,even he himself admit it...
-- Gilisa 10:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't Cornelius Lanczos included? And according to Dover Press's bio Peter G. Bergmann was one of his students, too.
So when you all are quite through generating more heat than light with discussions confusing ethnicity with nationality, please consider updating the list of his famous students (near the bottom of the article) with these students/coworkers/assistants of Einstein.
For that matter, if you want to broaden the category to famous coworkers/associates, you should include Paul Ehrenfest, too. 204.119.233.210 22:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, just dropped back in to tell you guys this: I had a very distinct memory of my Physics 2010 (CU Boulder 1995) describing (and answering a student question on) the use of stimulated emmission (which produces a photon from the nucleus while the introduced photon is fully accounted for) in overcoming binding energy to initiate the chain reaction in nuclear fission. So many of you said "Huh?" that I looked up my old professor to double check. He's gone from CU Physics now, so I sent an e-mail to the two others teaching 2010 nowadays (an adjunct and an associate prof) to ask them if I remembered correctly. Only one answered, Michael Dubson, and he says nope, it's not the case. So I apologize and I bow to your objections, not because you wanted it that way but because you were right! Here's what Dubson had to say on the matter:
No, Einstein's work on stimulated emission had
no direct effect on the development of the A-bomb. Stimulated emission has nothing to do with the A-bomb chain reaction (which involved neutrons). Actually, none of Einstein's work had any *direct* bearing on the design and development of the A-bomb. Contrary to popular opinion, the formula E=mc^2 had no more influence on the design of the A-bomb than it did on the design of refrigerators. Einstein's influence is almost everywhere in modern science, but it is often indirect. Einstein's work laid the foundations for 20th century physics, which produced lasers, transistors, and A-bombs. Einstein worked on none of these things directly, but all of them can all be traced back to Einstein's work. It is as if Einstein invented bricks, concrete, and steel. Other people went on to design and build cities. Feel free to quote me. -cheerio, Mike
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Otterpops ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC).
What was Albert Einstein's middle name? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LILLYofTHEsouth ( talk • contribs).
One wonders about some of the huge list of "Books about Einstein". In particular, does the Hawking & Mlodinow book really talk about Einstein as such, or is it like Hawking's other books and merely contains a different interpretation of relativity theory. If the latter, then it doesn't belong in this list (although it may be appropriate for one of the technical articles). — DAGwyn 08:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The current article's "General relativity" section first of all discusses things other than general relativity, but more importantly, it doesn't seem to anywhere state that in 1915 Einstein published his theory of general relativity in essentially final form. — DAGwyn 19:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I've just run into this article [4] claiming that in his Special Theory of Relativity, Einstein essentially represents work already developed by Poincare, Lorenz and others as his own; that his paper of 1905 lists no references to earlier work in which the famous formula E = mc^2 appears, nor any references to prior work at all.
If someone can verify these assertions, they may be worth incorporating into the Wikipedia article. Best regards, Duality Rules 23:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
In the Dover Press book on General Relativity by Torretti, "Relativity and Geometry", Torretti covers this topic in some detail. It is clear from that coverage that the accusation of plagiarism is simply not true. Rather, it fails to understand the key difference between Poincaré's theory, which could _not_ break with the notion of an absolute ether, and Einstein's, which introduced a new constant of nature (the speed of light in vacuo) and dispensed with the 19th century notion of an absolute ether.
So the nexus magazine article you cite has failed to understand this fundamental difference.
Finally, one of the interesting things about Torretti's coverage is that he speculates that such accusations of plagiarism get a lot of momentum from Poincaré's own shock at being outdone by a 'mere' patent clerk! To the end of his life, he could not get over this. 204.119.233.210 22:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The arguments above, that Einstein was completely different from Lorentz and Poincare (and incidentally Larmor), abolishing the ether, different point of view, importance of symmetry etc, is not an answer to why there are no references in the 1905 paper. By today's standards the only proper answer to that question is that Einstein did not know of those papers; if he did he know of them he should have commented on those earlier papers and show why his was different from them. If the modern system of review before publications was in place then, the referee might well have been Lorentz, the expert in the field of electrodynamics at the time, but if it were another expert, that expert would insist on a re-write to clarify what was different about the paper. So the question is "Did Einstein know the papers?" So if Torretti is really only interested in why Einstein is different and better then he has missed the point, in my opinion. Of course, this assumes anyone cares anymore, but apparently some people do care. E4mmacro 05:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The interesting point form a history of science point of view is how bad or non-existent the reviewing system for Journals must have been then. A modern journal would be very disappointed if it published a major paper which derives a set of equations which were already published eight years previously (in 1897 by Sir Joseph Larmor for the Lorentz transformations) and never refers to that work. It would want a re-write before publication, putting the work in context. E4mmacro 05:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)