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Dear Herr Beethoven: I don't understand who has empowered you to decide what is and what is not constructive in the Wikipedia al-Tabari article, and thence to control the contributions of others. For your information, present-day scholarship notes al-Tabari's conspicuous errors; by removing this fact, you are misleading the reader. Please retain my emendation to the article, or I will rectify the matter through Google. Sincerely, 74.162.153.99 ( talk) 02:55, 10 July 2012 (UTC) Grisham Welles Monday, 10 July 2012
I thought that they say "At-Tabari", the L changed to a T because the next word starts with that consonant. You also see that with other letters, such as in these examples :
So "At-Tabari" should also appear in bold chars in the introductory sentence (perhaps replacing "Al-Tabari" altogether?). — Jerome Potts ( talk) 09:35, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Recent edits have made me interested to read more about Al-Tabari. In reference 3, the following is mentioned: "None of those ancestors can be identified any further (although there seems to be an implication in some of the sources that Kaṯir b. Ḡāleb was a known personality), and about all that can be said about them is that they have Arabic names. However, Ṭabari is never known to have claimed or to have had attributed to him any tribal affiliation and is always called by his regional nesba. He certainly knew some Persian, and his history showed more than a passing interest in subjects concerning his homeland, but that proves little. When he was asked about his ancestry, he was deliberately vague and quoted a verse belittling the importance of such genealogies (Yāqut, Odabāʾ VI, p. 428; see Rosenthal, 1989, pp. 12-13 on the possible moralizing aspect of this anecdote). There is thus no way of knowing for certain whether Ṭabari’s family was native to the Āol region or perhaps arrived with the wave of Muslim colonists after the Abbasid revolution, either as converts or Arab settlers"
Isn't this source claiming the opposite of what is supposed to claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moor919 ( talk • contribs) 00:57, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent edits have made me interested to read more about Al-Tabari. In reference 3, the following is mentioned: "None of those ancestors can be identified any further (although there seems to be an implication in some of the sources that Kaṯir b. Ḡāleb was a known personality), and about all that can be said about them is that they have Arabic names. However, Ṭabari is never known to have claimed or to have had attributed to him any tribal affiliation and is always called by his regional nesba. He certainly knew some Persian, and his history showed more than a passing interest in subjects concerning his homeland, but that proves little. When he was asked about his ancestry, he was deliberately vague and quoted a verse belittling the importance of such genealogies (Yāqut, Odabāʾ VI, p. 428; see Rosenthal, 1989, pp. 12-13 on the possible moralizing aspect of this anecdote). There is thus no way of knowing for certain whether Ṭabari’s family was native to the Āol region or perhaps arrived with the wave of Muslim colonists after the Abbasid revolution, either as converts or Arab settlers"
Isn't this source claiming the opposite of what is supposed to claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moor919 ( talk • contribs) 01:10, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Ṭabari’s family ... perhaps arrived with the wave of Muslim colonists after the Abbasid revolution, ... as ... Arab settlers. M Imtiaz ( talk · contribs) 02:05, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Tabari himself discouraged speculation about his ancestry. When he was asked ... he replied by quoting a verse in which the famous Umayyad poet deprecated pride in one's pedigree.[1] Wiqi (55) 06:58, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Persian or Arabfail to "convey this ambiguity", as opposed to a definitive "Persian"? M Imtiaz ( talk · contribs) 20:40, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
I find your statement about how ancestry is not necessarily linked to ethnicity to be interesting: I mean, it's worth noting that per DNA testing, I'm of at least partial Dagestani (or possibly Azerbaijani, Talysh, etc.) ancestry, yet that doesn't make me ethnically Caucasian (I'm as Punjabi as it gets). M Imtiaz ( talk · contribs) 18:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Do we have reliable sources supporting that Al-Tabari was an ethnic Arab ? As i said above, it looks to me that the only uncertainty is about his origins, not about his ethnicity (both cited sources say that he was a Persian). If there is no reliable sources explicitly supporting an Arab ethnicity, then "Arab" should be removed, as per WP:OR.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:53, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I think this is a similar case like Al-Farabi. Removing ethnicity from the lead and expanding the Biography would be a good solution. Wario-Man talk 06:21, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Agree with the removal of his ethnicity from the lead section.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 00:17, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Unless you are into history, you are bound to think of every muslim as Arab. It is hard to make the distinction without serious study to be honest.Um, what? Either you worded that poorly or you are terribly, terribly wrong. Over 80 percent of Muslims today are non-Arab. Knowing that doesn't require any knowledge of history at all, and yet I run into Arabs all the time who are unable to wrap their head around the fact that I'm proudly Muslim yet have zero interest in belonging to their ethnicity or culture. This is exactly the problem: somehow they seem incapable of imagining how little of a connection there is between their ethnic identity and the religion that they happen to follow, and so we are gaslighted and denied us our importance in the ummah through dogwhistles like "history" and "[requires] serious study" (compare, for example, my local Muslim Student Association, which said Persia and Central Asia would be "too advanced" of a topic for a talk but had no qualms covering the openly Arab supremacist Umayyads; coincidence? I think not). Also, want to declare your alternative account? M Imtiaz ( talk · contribs) 00:42, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
References
the Persian-born, Baghdādī polymath Abū Jaʿfar b. Jarīr al-Ṭabarī (d. 923/310) was putting the finishing ...
User:Moor9119, User:Xerxes1985, User:شاه عباس - This is the article talk page, and is where to discuss edits. Edit summaries are not a satisfactory alternative to discussion on an article talk page. Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:06, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Is Tabari really an Athari? Do these theological schools even exist during Tabari's life-time? Somewhere in the article, Tabari appears to be distinguished by Hanbalites (Atharis?) for his "heretic" beliefs. So are the source properly understood citing him an "Athari"? 2A01:C23:895A:A900:7D46:18B5:309A:E62D ( talk) 17:56, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles#Islamic honorifics and user-generated calligraphic images. ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 20:03, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Almost all of the sources of this article says he was of Iranian or Persian origin on what basis said here he was an Arab? Alihd23 ( talk) 20:09, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
@
Shafin10555: some of the changes you made in
this revision:
Good:
Mistakes:
Overall, this isn't an improvement; yet, now you've reverted to an older version with no explanation. Yasinzayd ( talk) 03:06, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Al-Tabari article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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|
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on February 17, 2020. |
An image used in this article,
File:Jarir tabari.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 3 February 2012
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 00:19, 10 February 2012 (UTC) |
An image used in this article,
File:Jarir Tabari.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests February 2012
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Jarir Tabari.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 18:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC) |
Dear Herr Beethoven: I don't understand who has empowered you to decide what is and what is not constructive in the Wikipedia al-Tabari article, and thence to control the contributions of others. For your information, present-day scholarship notes al-Tabari's conspicuous errors; by removing this fact, you are misleading the reader. Please retain my emendation to the article, or I will rectify the matter through Google. Sincerely, 74.162.153.99 ( talk) 02:55, 10 July 2012 (UTC) Grisham Welles Monday, 10 July 2012
I thought that they say "At-Tabari", the L changed to a T because the next word starts with that consonant. You also see that with other letters, such as in these examples :
So "At-Tabari" should also appear in bold chars in the introductory sentence (perhaps replacing "Al-Tabari" altogether?). — Jerome Potts ( talk) 09:35, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Recent edits have made me interested to read more about Al-Tabari. In reference 3, the following is mentioned: "None of those ancestors can be identified any further (although there seems to be an implication in some of the sources that Kaṯir b. Ḡāleb was a known personality), and about all that can be said about them is that they have Arabic names. However, Ṭabari is never known to have claimed or to have had attributed to him any tribal affiliation and is always called by his regional nesba. He certainly knew some Persian, and his history showed more than a passing interest in subjects concerning his homeland, but that proves little. When he was asked about his ancestry, he was deliberately vague and quoted a verse belittling the importance of such genealogies (Yāqut, Odabāʾ VI, p. 428; see Rosenthal, 1989, pp. 12-13 on the possible moralizing aspect of this anecdote). There is thus no way of knowing for certain whether Ṭabari’s family was native to the Āol region or perhaps arrived with the wave of Muslim colonists after the Abbasid revolution, either as converts or Arab settlers"
Isn't this source claiming the opposite of what is supposed to claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moor919 ( talk • contribs) 00:57, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent edits have made me interested to read more about Al-Tabari. In reference 3, the following is mentioned: "None of those ancestors can be identified any further (although there seems to be an implication in some of the sources that Kaṯir b. Ḡāleb was a known personality), and about all that can be said about them is that they have Arabic names. However, Ṭabari is never known to have claimed or to have had attributed to him any tribal affiliation and is always called by his regional nesba. He certainly knew some Persian, and his history showed more than a passing interest in subjects concerning his homeland, but that proves little. When he was asked about his ancestry, he was deliberately vague and quoted a verse belittling the importance of such genealogies (Yāqut, Odabāʾ VI, p. 428; see Rosenthal, 1989, pp. 12-13 on the possible moralizing aspect of this anecdote). There is thus no way of knowing for certain whether Ṭabari’s family was native to the Āol region or perhaps arrived with the wave of Muslim colonists after the Abbasid revolution, either as converts or Arab settlers"
Isn't this source claiming the opposite of what is supposed to claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moor919 ( talk • contribs) 01:10, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Ṭabari’s family ... perhaps arrived with the wave of Muslim colonists after the Abbasid revolution, ... as ... Arab settlers. M Imtiaz ( talk · contribs) 02:05, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Tabari himself discouraged speculation about his ancestry. When he was asked ... he replied by quoting a verse in which the famous Umayyad poet deprecated pride in one's pedigree.[1] Wiqi (55) 06:58, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Persian or Arabfail to "convey this ambiguity", as opposed to a definitive "Persian"? M Imtiaz ( talk · contribs) 20:40, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
I find your statement about how ancestry is not necessarily linked to ethnicity to be interesting: I mean, it's worth noting that per DNA testing, I'm of at least partial Dagestani (or possibly Azerbaijani, Talysh, etc.) ancestry, yet that doesn't make me ethnically Caucasian (I'm as Punjabi as it gets). M Imtiaz ( talk · contribs) 18:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Do we have reliable sources supporting that Al-Tabari was an ethnic Arab ? As i said above, it looks to me that the only uncertainty is about his origins, not about his ethnicity (both cited sources say that he was a Persian). If there is no reliable sources explicitly supporting an Arab ethnicity, then "Arab" should be removed, as per WP:OR.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:53, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I think this is a similar case like Al-Farabi. Removing ethnicity from the lead and expanding the Biography would be a good solution. Wario-Man talk 06:21, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Agree with the removal of his ethnicity from the lead section.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 00:17, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Unless you are into history, you are bound to think of every muslim as Arab. It is hard to make the distinction without serious study to be honest.Um, what? Either you worded that poorly or you are terribly, terribly wrong. Over 80 percent of Muslims today are non-Arab. Knowing that doesn't require any knowledge of history at all, and yet I run into Arabs all the time who are unable to wrap their head around the fact that I'm proudly Muslim yet have zero interest in belonging to their ethnicity or culture. This is exactly the problem: somehow they seem incapable of imagining how little of a connection there is between their ethnic identity and the religion that they happen to follow, and so we are gaslighted and denied us our importance in the ummah through dogwhistles like "history" and "[requires] serious study" (compare, for example, my local Muslim Student Association, which said Persia and Central Asia would be "too advanced" of a topic for a talk but had no qualms covering the openly Arab supremacist Umayyads; coincidence? I think not). Also, want to declare your alternative account? M Imtiaz ( talk · contribs) 00:42, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
References
the Persian-born, Baghdādī polymath Abū Jaʿfar b. Jarīr al-Ṭabarī (d. 923/310) was putting the finishing ...
User:Moor9119, User:Xerxes1985, User:شاه عباس - This is the article talk page, and is where to discuss edits. Edit summaries are not a satisfactory alternative to discussion on an article talk page. Robert McClenon ( talk) 15:06, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Is Tabari really an Athari? Do these theological schools even exist during Tabari's life-time? Somewhere in the article, Tabari appears to be distinguished by Hanbalites (Atharis?) for his "heretic" beliefs. So are the source properly understood citing him an "Athari"? 2A01:C23:895A:A900:7D46:18B5:309A:E62D ( talk) 17:56, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles#Islamic honorifics and user-generated calligraphic images. ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 20:03, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Almost all of the sources of this article says he was of Iranian or Persian origin on what basis said here he was an Arab? Alihd23 ( talk) 20:09, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
@
Shafin10555: some of the changes you made in
this revision:
Good:
Mistakes:
Overall, this isn't an improvement; yet, now you've reverted to an older version with no explanation. Yasinzayd ( talk) 03:06, 3 February 2024 (UTC)