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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 10 May 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Grenadine13 (
article contribs).
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Kjimenez25.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 13:20, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I removed a link to Classical definition of effeminacy which Dbachmann had added. I'm not sure how it's directly relevant to the discussion of Achilles and Patroclus — I don't recall Achilles or Patroclus being described as an example of ἀνανδρία or μαλακία. Obviously the Homeric and modern sections need work, and if either word is used with reference to these two in Homer the link should be restored, I suppose; but it's not a quality I tend to associate with either of these two. Of course, differing opinions are welcome; I don't own this page. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 20:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
"It is not possible to designate the roles found in the Iliad between Achilles and Patroclus along pederastic lines. Achilles is the most dominant"
If something is unclear to ascertain and how can this declarative statement be made? I'm just a bit confused by this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.212.85.194 ( talk • contribs) 15:14, April 23, 2006 (UTC)
From what I remember the friendship between Achilles and Patroclus which was the whole theme of the Iliad, was the "Warth of Achilles" and what was Achilles so worked up (wrathful) about? How about the fact that Agamemnon took his booty slave girl away....you know the same slave girl he slept with at night. Which became the MAIN reason of why he left the battle field and wasn't it Patroculus who sought Achilles out to return to battle only to have Achilles turn his back on Patroculus; only to not be there when his close friend Patroculus was killed. Lets see how many military men who form close friendships with one another walk away from battle because of some chick, turn their backs on their friends when they are sought out to return to battle to help the team out, only to learn later on that their close buddies were killed in the same battle and would not react the way Achilles does. So yeah, he would be hunted by his actions which caused the death of his close friend. The idea that the glorification of friendship that the Greeks so admired could have been nothing more than an excuse for sodomy, is totally ridiculous in its self.
Also regarding the following paragraph:
Evidence of this debate is found in a speech by an Athenian politician, Aeschines, at his trial in 345 BC. Aeschines in placing an emphasis on the importance of pederasty to the Greeks argues that though Homer does not state it explicitly, educated people should be able to read between the lines. “Although (Homer) speaks in many places of Patroclus and Achilles, he hides their love and avoids giving a name to their friendship, thinking that the exceeding greatness of their affection is manifest to such of his hearers as are educated men.” Most ancient writers followed the thinking laid out by Aeschines.
That is a misleading statement taken from a speech known as The Contra Timarchus (Kata Timarkou; Against Timarchus) Aeschines does not put emphasis on the importance of pederasty in a positive way but a negative way, he uses it to speak against allowing Timarchus his political rights, based on his having spent his adolescence as the kept boy (pederasty) of a series of wealthy men. Neither pederasty nor homosexuality were as widely accepted in ancient Greece as some modern "scholars" would like us to think. Think about it, if pederasty and homosexuality were so openly accepted by ancient Greeks why is it that out of tens of thousands vases/paintings, 80,000 to be exact were found in Attica alone, why is that only about 30 have paintings which might accurately be depicted as homosexual secenes? Why is that some 20th century "scholars" took such a minute precentage and made the absurd charge that they represented the "norm" of ancient Greek society? If that's the case then you might as well say that with all the ponographic material (printed, internet and film) floating around today of homosexuality and kiddie porn that its the "norm" of most modern societies as well. BeNNoulA 6 July 2006 (UTC)
"The idea that the glorification of friendship that the Greeks so admired could have been nothing more than an excuse for sodomy, is totally ridiculous in its self." This I can't agree with. The realtionship between Achilles and Patroclus throughout the Iliad is contrasted with the relationship between Hektor and Andromache. This is why Achilles feels such intense and unhuman loss at the death of Patroclus. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.96.130.113 ( talk • contribs) 13:16, July 30, 2006 (UTC)
I don't have The Iliad in front of me but I seem to recall that after the unsuccessful "embassy" of Odysseus, Ajax and Phoenix to Achilles to implore him to return to the battlefield, it is quite plainly stated by Homer that each of Achilles and Patroclus retired to bed, separately, each accompanied by a captive female who is mentioned in the text. Hardly the actions you would expect of lovers -- although, of course, that could have been an "interpolation" by a later author precisely to dispel any conclusion that they were lovers... Partnerfrance ( talk) 21:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
If people are going to make them "lovers", should it not be mentioned somewhere in the article that according to their family tree in Greek Mythology they were related through their fathers' side thus making any supposed "sexual relationship" an incestuous one.
Aegina who was the daughter of the river god Asopus was the mother of Menoetius by Actor and the mother of Aeacus by Zeus.
Menoetius mortal King of Opus was the son of Actor & Aegina; and the father of Patroclus.
Aeacus immortal King of Aegina was the son of Zeus & Aegina; and the father Peleus who was in return the father of Achilles.
So basically according to the Greek Mythology Family Tree:
Patroclus and Achilles' dad, Peleus, were 1st cousins, thus making Achilles and Patroclus either: a) 2nd cousins or b) uncle(Patroclus) and nephew(Achilles). In other words Achilles and Patroclus have the same paternal grandmother(Patroclus) and great-grandmother(Achilles), hence the reason why probably ancient Greeks made Patroclus older of the two. Mallaccaos, 28 July 2006
I'm not sure I see the relevance of incest to this article. From our perspective, perhaps A. & P. might be seen as an incestuous relationship, but I think the term usually describes heterosexual relationships. The more important point is that (as far as I know) the ancient Greeks didn't see A. & P. as an incestuous couple. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
In disagreement with one line of the article, there were homosexual relationships that were particularly famous of Sparta. Therefore to say that homosexuality did not exist in Greece is simply incorrect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.252.159.0 ( talk • contribs) 22:51, September 7, 2006 (UTC)
I seem to recall that Achilles' wrath was against Agamemnon (because of the stolen slave), not Hector. But I wait for more competent opinions before changing the article. Elvetico 08:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
There used to be a link to an .ogg file of a spoken-word version of the myth on this page. It was removed a while back, but the following box remained:
The Achilles and Patroclus myth as told by story tellers |
---|
Bibliography of reconstruction: Homer Iliad, 9.308, 16.2, 11.780, 23.54 (700 BC); Pindar Olympian Odes, IX (476 BC); Aeschylus Myrmidons, F135-36 (495 BC); Euripides Iphigenia in Aulis, (405 BC); Plato Symposium, 179e (388 BC-367 BC); Statius Achilleid, 161, 174, 182 (96 CE) |
As far as I can tell, this box was just a list of sources used by whoever compiled the spoken-word version of the myth; since that's been deleted, the box is superfluous. However, it does seem to be a decent partial listing of the ancient sources which refer to Achilles and Patroclus, so I'm leaving it here. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 04:34, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
"He dreams that all Greeks would die so that he and Patroclus might gain the fame of conquering Troy alone[citation needed]." It's a quote from Achilles from the Iliad. So one can debate if he dreams about it, but why does it have the tag it has? Someone just create an Ilaid footnote to the proper section. It may be one of the oddest comments Achilles makes in all the Iliad, wishing all his other friends to die. He received Ajax and Odysseus as friends at his ship, making it clear his anger was for Agamemnon and Agamemnon only. -- 77.175.157.191 ( talk) 23:47, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Before anything, hi, I'm a university student editor for this page. I hope to make this article better, but I understand my limitations.
The literary significance section has been labeled as not being written in encyclopedic style since 2010, and so I'm attempting to rewrite and clarify the section appropriately. In doing so, I've noticed that much of the information in the section seems irrelevant to a discussion about the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus,(ex: the discussion of death as a theme in Homer doesn't really add anything of importance). I plan to remove much of what is written, but is there any particular reason it was added that I'm just not getting? Kjimenez25 ( talk) 15:10, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I'm a student editor and I'll be working on this article for the next few weeks. I noticed this article seems to jump back and forth between the two opposing viewpoints without giving either side adequate room to fully explain their point. I'd like to restructure this article to be more conducive to learning about the opposing viewpoints, as shown below. I'd also like to add in a section about an egalitarian view of their relationship, provided I can find adequate source material.
*Lead *Relationship in the Iliad *Arguments for Homosexual Relationship *Pederasty *In Antiquity *Egalitarian Homosexual Relationship *In Antiquity/Iliad *Post-Classical/ Modern Interpretations *Shakespeare *The Song of Achilles *Arguments for Platonic Relationship *In Antiquity *Post-Classical/ Modern Interpretations *Troy
This is just a general idea after looking over the article and talk page. If anyone has any input, I'd love to hear it! Here is the sandbox for the article User:Grenadine13/Achilles and Patroclus. Grenadine13 ( talk) 21:25, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 10 May 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Grenadine13 (
article contribs).
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Kjimenez25.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 13:20, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I removed a link to Classical definition of effeminacy which Dbachmann had added. I'm not sure how it's directly relevant to the discussion of Achilles and Patroclus — I don't recall Achilles or Patroclus being described as an example of ἀνανδρία or μαλακία. Obviously the Homeric and modern sections need work, and if either word is used with reference to these two in Homer the link should be restored, I suppose; but it's not a quality I tend to associate with either of these two. Of course, differing opinions are welcome; I don't own this page. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 20:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
"It is not possible to designate the roles found in the Iliad between Achilles and Patroclus along pederastic lines. Achilles is the most dominant"
If something is unclear to ascertain and how can this declarative statement be made? I'm just a bit confused by this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.212.85.194 ( talk • contribs) 15:14, April 23, 2006 (UTC)
From what I remember the friendship between Achilles and Patroclus which was the whole theme of the Iliad, was the "Warth of Achilles" and what was Achilles so worked up (wrathful) about? How about the fact that Agamemnon took his booty slave girl away....you know the same slave girl he slept with at night. Which became the MAIN reason of why he left the battle field and wasn't it Patroculus who sought Achilles out to return to battle only to have Achilles turn his back on Patroculus; only to not be there when his close friend Patroculus was killed. Lets see how many military men who form close friendships with one another walk away from battle because of some chick, turn their backs on their friends when they are sought out to return to battle to help the team out, only to learn later on that their close buddies were killed in the same battle and would not react the way Achilles does. So yeah, he would be hunted by his actions which caused the death of his close friend. The idea that the glorification of friendship that the Greeks so admired could have been nothing more than an excuse for sodomy, is totally ridiculous in its self.
Also regarding the following paragraph:
Evidence of this debate is found in a speech by an Athenian politician, Aeschines, at his trial in 345 BC. Aeschines in placing an emphasis on the importance of pederasty to the Greeks argues that though Homer does not state it explicitly, educated people should be able to read between the lines. “Although (Homer) speaks in many places of Patroclus and Achilles, he hides their love and avoids giving a name to their friendship, thinking that the exceeding greatness of their affection is manifest to such of his hearers as are educated men.” Most ancient writers followed the thinking laid out by Aeschines.
That is a misleading statement taken from a speech known as The Contra Timarchus (Kata Timarkou; Against Timarchus) Aeschines does not put emphasis on the importance of pederasty in a positive way but a negative way, he uses it to speak against allowing Timarchus his political rights, based on his having spent his adolescence as the kept boy (pederasty) of a series of wealthy men. Neither pederasty nor homosexuality were as widely accepted in ancient Greece as some modern "scholars" would like us to think. Think about it, if pederasty and homosexuality were so openly accepted by ancient Greeks why is it that out of tens of thousands vases/paintings, 80,000 to be exact were found in Attica alone, why is that only about 30 have paintings which might accurately be depicted as homosexual secenes? Why is that some 20th century "scholars" took such a minute precentage and made the absurd charge that they represented the "norm" of ancient Greek society? If that's the case then you might as well say that with all the ponographic material (printed, internet and film) floating around today of homosexuality and kiddie porn that its the "norm" of most modern societies as well. BeNNoulA 6 July 2006 (UTC)
"The idea that the glorification of friendship that the Greeks so admired could have been nothing more than an excuse for sodomy, is totally ridiculous in its self." This I can't agree with. The realtionship between Achilles and Patroclus throughout the Iliad is contrasted with the relationship between Hektor and Andromache. This is why Achilles feels such intense and unhuman loss at the death of Patroclus. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.96.130.113 ( talk • contribs) 13:16, July 30, 2006 (UTC)
I don't have The Iliad in front of me but I seem to recall that after the unsuccessful "embassy" of Odysseus, Ajax and Phoenix to Achilles to implore him to return to the battlefield, it is quite plainly stated by Homer that each of Achilles and Patroclus retired to bed, separately, each accompanied by a captive female who is mentioned in the text. Hardly the actions you would expect of lovers -- although, of course, that could have been an "interpolation" by a later author precisely to dispel any conclusion that they were lovers... Partnerfrance ( talk) 21:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
If people are going to make them "lovers", should it not be mentioned somewhere in the article that according to their family tree in Greek Mythology they were related through their fathers' side thus making any supposed "sexual relationship" an incestuous one.
Aegina who was the daughter of the river god Asopus was the mother of Menoetius by Actor and the mother of Aeacus by Zeus.
Menoetius mortal King of Opus was the son of Actor & Aegina; and the father of Patroclus.
Aeacus immortal King of Aegina was the son of Zeus & Aegina; and the father Peleus who was in return the father of Achilles.
So basically according to the Greek Mythology Family Tree:
Patroclus and Achilles' dad, Peleus, were 1st cousins, thus making Achilles and Patroclus either: a) 2nd cousins or b) uncle(Patroclus) and nephew(Achilles). In other words Achilles and Patroclus have the same paternal grandmother(Patroclus) and great-grandmother(Achilles), hence the reason why probably ancient Greeks made Patroclus older of the two. Mallaccaos, 28 July 2006
I'm not sure I see the relevance of incest to this article. From our perspective, perhaps A. & P. might be seen as an incestuous relationship, but I think the term usually describes heterosexual relationships. The more important point is that (as far as I know) the ancient Greeks didn't see A. & P. as an incestuous couple. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
In disagreement with one line of the article, there were homosexual relationships that were particularly famous of Sparta. Therefore to say that homosexuality did not exist in Greece is simply incorrect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.252.159.0 ( talk • contribs) 22:51, September 7, 2006 (UTC)
I seem to recall that Achilles' wrath was against Agamemnon (because of the stolen slave), not Hector. But I wait for more competent opinions before changing the article. Elvetico 08:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
There used to be a link to an .ogg file of a spoken-word version of the myth on this page. It was removed a while back, but the following box remained:
The Achilles and Patroclus myth as told by story tellers |
---|
Bibliography of reconstruction: Homer Iliad, 9.308, 16.2, 11.780, 23.54 (700 BC); Pindar Olympian Odes, IX (476 BC); Aeschylus Myrmidons, F135-36 (495 BC); Euripides Iphigenia in Aulis, (405 BC); Plato Symposium, 179e (388 BC-367 BC); Statius Achilleid, 161, 174, 182 (96 CE) |
As far as I can tell, this box was just a list of sources used by whoever compiled the spoken-word version of the myth; since that's been deleted, the box is superfluous. However, it does seem to be a decent partial listing of the ancient sources which refer to Achilles and Patroclus, so I'm leaving it here. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 04:34, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
"He dreams that all Greeks would die so that he and Patroclus might gain the fame of conquering Troy alone[citation needed]." It's a quote from Achilles from the Iliad. So one can debate if he dreams about it, but why does it have the tag it has? Someone just create an Ilaid footnote to the proper section. It may be one of the oddest comments Achilles makes in all the Iliad, wishing all his other friends to die. He received Ajax and Odysseus as friends at his ship, making it clear his anger was for Agamemnon and Agamemnon only. -- 77.175.157.191 ( talk) 23:47, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Before anything, hi, I'm a university student editor for this page. I hope to make this article better, but I understand my limitations.
The literary significance section has been labeled as not being written in encyclopedic style since 2010, and so I'm attempting to rewrite and clarify the section appropriately. In doing so, I've noticed that much of the information in the section seems irrelevant to a discussion about the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus,(ex: the discussion of death as a theme in Homer doesn't really add anything of importance). I plan to remove much of what is written, but is there any particular reason it was added that I'm just not getting? Kjimenez25 ( talk) 15:10, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I'm a student editor and I'll be working on this article for the next few weeks. I noticed this article seems to jump back and forth between the two opposing viewpoints without giving either side adequate room to fully explain their point. I'd like to restructure this article to be more conducive to learning about the opposing viewpoints, as shown below. I'd also like to add in a section about an egalitarian view of their relationship, provided I can find adequate source material.
*Lead *Relationship in the Iliad *Arguments for Homosexual Relationship *Pederasty *In Antiquity *Egalitarian Homosexual Relationship *In Antiquity/Iliad *Post-Classical/ Modern Interpretations *Shakespeare *The Song of Achilles *Arguments for Platonic Relationship *In Antiquity *Post-Classical/ Modern Interpretations *Troy
This is just a general idea after looking over the article and talk page. If anyone has any input, I'd love to hear it! Here is the sandbox for the article User:Grenadine13/Achilles and Patroclus. Grenadine13 ( talk) 21:25, 24 February 2022 (UTC)