For the apparently controversial paras below. Please discuss your edits here instead of engaging in the revert war. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
Talk 04:45, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Throughout its existence, the division was responsible for a number of war crimes, most notably against Polish citizens during the Polish Defensive War of 1939. Probably the first violation of the international traties happened on September 1, 1939 when the division used civilians as human shields during the battle of Mokra. On September 3, when a Polish airplane was shot down and its crew taken prisoner. The pilot, after being brutally interrogated and tortured was executed. On September 6 yet another Polish prisoner of war was executed in the village of Czermno. In Mszczonowo eleven Polish prisoners (8 in uniforms and 3 in civilian clothing) were shot in public view by the soldiers of the division. As the division progressed towards Warsaw, on September 8 in Nadarzyn a captured Polish major was ordered to dig his own grave for execution. During an escape attempt he was recaptured and trampled to death by a group of soldiers.
The following day in the village of Ludwikówka additional two Polish prisoners of war were executed. The last major war crime in that campaign happened on September 18 in the village of Śladów, where the entering German forces have executed and drowned in Vistula approximately 300 people, including roughly 150 prisoners of war.
Again Shauri you mislead.
1- Regarding Molobo's claim that I hold anti-Polish views
Please cite me on this.Where did I said you held anti-Polish views.
2-Molobo's reaction was to immediately start to question my motives and my good faith, instead of working together to find a suitable agreement as I was proposing.
Untrue.I asked you why do you believe that the unit didn't committ atrocities.Your answer was to attack my person.
3-Molobo suggested that, and even layed suspicion of antisemitism over me, ignoring my part Jewish heritage and the fact that I have relatives who died at the concentration camp of Rivesaltes.
Again you hide the fact that you accused me of having an anti-German bias while I have German ancestors.
Also please cite where I call you antisemitic.
4-like other well respected Polish editors have expressed)
Thorsten-a user that held very unfriendly views to Poles and almost every post of his was personall attack is believed by you to be well respected ?
5- contents from an user who's not exactly known for avoiding controversies.
Indeed mentioning German war crimes, or murder by Rommel of prisoner did evoke controversy in certain editors.Have they been able to prove me wrong ? After all Rommel did confess to executing a French prisoner. And where is that information in article on him ? Certainly nowhere to be seen besided statements of chivalric attitude.
Also what do your comments have anything to do with the article ?
--
Molobo
21:55, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
And to your information.I had the quote on the unit all the time.What I wanted was a rational answer why do you doubt its crimes.No answer to that was given by either you or other people that attacked me.Had you did you would receive an answer. -- Molobo 21:43, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I was warned about RfC the moment I added the fact about Rommel executing a French prisoner.You aren't the first one Wiglaf :). Perhaps however you will finally say what policy I broke that allowed you to block me.
out in plain words your personal attacks, knowing how much you hurt people I hurt people by adding information on atrocities made by German units ? What are you talking about ? -- Molobo 03:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
So what's wrong with the above sources? Do we have any sources to the contrary? If we have a source A saying X, and nothing but our own opinion that it is wrong, I am afraid source has a precedence over our own opinions. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it is acceptable with scholarship produced under a communist dicatorship. If you have any reasons to believe that that particular work is biased state them, furthermore in 1961 we hardly had any "communist dictatorship".I see no reason to consider work on World War 2 discounted simply because it was done under socialism.If you have any evidence that the book is untrustworthy, was manipulated or is discredited by historians-be my guest provide such sources. -- Molobo 02:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Molobo, it does not matter whether a dictatorship is Communist or Nazi. The socialist authoritiarian government in Poland of 1961 isn't compareble to Nazi regime in its control over political research or studies. State dictated scholarship is not limited to dictatorships Again Poland was an authoritiarian regime but certainly not a dictatorship.Scholary works rarely were influenced by the state unless they dealt with the history of party in Poland.Do you have any proof that this particular research was done on behalf of Polish government for propaganda purpouse ? -- Molobo 10:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
In responce to your accusations that I have antigerman bias because I put information on Rommels execution of prisoner. To quote
"but with your confessed anti Germanism, which is the omnipresent underlying issue here."
Seems from begining the interest wasn't about the facts but about name calling those who put them. -- Molobo 02:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Refuted by your claims that Polish books that I gave are nothing more then personal blogs. -- Molobo 02:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Of course you did by saying : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Erwin_Rommel Another comment from Cadorna (this time comparing Jews to Klu Klux Klan and Nazi units to oppresed minority) : http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=12th_SS_Panzer_Division_Hitlerjugend&action=history "(Serious sources only, please - using www.jewishlibrary.org as a source on this matter is like quoting the KKK on the Black Power article)" --Molobo 16:54, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
I've been reading thru the discussion, and I think that rather than a comparison, he was merely offering an example of what an unneutral source is. On the other hand, you, Molobo, have much more to answer for. Shauri 17:02, 3 August 2005 (UTC) Again-what I had much to answer for was puting a simple fact that Rommel executed a French prisoner. -- Molobo 02:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
as I've grown weary of stating at your Talk page. I still await the apollogy you promised me, though... As said :Shauri defended a user comparing Jews to KKK and Nazis to opressed minority. The same user said Yad Vashem and Jewishlibrary aren't neutral sources.Shauri agreed with that.Perhaps my wording was inaccurate.Treat this as one. If Shauri doesn't believe so, then she just needs to confirm that Yad Vashem and Jewishlibrary aren't compareble to KKK and are respectable resources.I will gladly apologize to her if I was mistaken and she didn't support that users views.--Molobo 15:47, 31 October 2005
the issue pointed out by him remains, and has been endorsed by many other editors. Interested in German topics-I can't argue with that.
In which way was I wrong ? -- Molobo 02:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
What are you talking about Wiglaf ? -- Molobo 10:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
For the apparently controversial paras below. Please discuss your edits here instead of engaging in the revert war. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
Talk 04:45, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Throughout its existence, the division was responsible for a number of war crimes, most notably against Polish citizens during the Polish Defensive War of 1939. Probably the first violation of the international traties happened on September 1, 1939 when the division used civilians as human shields during the battle of Mokra. On September 3, when a Polish airplane was shot down and its crew taken prisoner. The pilot, after being brutally interrogated and tortured was executed. On September 6 yet another Polish prisoner of war was executed in the village of Czermno. In Mszczonowo eleven Polish prisoners (8 in uniforms and 3 in civilian clothing) were shot in public view by the soldiers of the division. As the division progressed towards Warsaw, on September 8 in Nadarzyn a captured Polish major was ordered to dig his own grave for execution. During an escape attempt he was recaptured and trampled to death by a group of soldiers.
The following day in the village of Ludwikówka additional two Polish prisoners of war were executed. The last major war crime in that campaign happened on September 18 in the village of Śladów, where the entering German forces have executed and drowned in Vistula approximately 300 people, including roughly 150 prisoners of war.
Again Shauri you mislead.
1- Regarding Molobo's claim that I hold anti-Polish views
Please cite me on this.Where did I said you held anti-Polish views.
2-Molobo's reaction was to immediately start to question my motives and my good faith, instead of working together to find a suitable agreement as I was proposing.
Untrue.I asked you why do you believe that the unit didn't committ atrocities.Your answer was to attack my person.
3-Molobo suggested that, and even layed suspicion of antisemitism over me, ignoring my part Jewish heritage and the fact that I have relatives who died at the concentration camp of Rivesaltes.
Again you hide the fact that you accused me of having an anti-German bias while I have German ancestors.
Also please cite where I call you antisemitic.
4-like other well respected Polish editors have expressed)
Thorsten-a user that held very unfriendly views to Poles and almost every post of his was personall attack is believed by you to be well respected ?
5- contents from an user who's not exactly known for avoiding controversies.
Indeed mentioning German war crimes, or murder by Rommel of prisoner did evoke controversy in certain editors.Have they been able to prove me wrong ? After all Rommel did confess to executing a French prisoner. And where is that information in article on him ? Certainly nowhere to be seen besided statements of chivalric attitude.
Also what do your comments have anything to do with the article ?
--
Molobo
21:55, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
And to your information.I had the quote on the unit all the time.What I wanted was a rational answer why do you doubt its crimes.No answer to that was given by either you or other people that attacked me.Had you did you would receive an answer. -- Molobo 21:43, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I was warned about RfC the moment I added the fact about Rommel executing a French prisoner.You aren't the first one Wiglaf :). Perhaps however you will finally say what policy I broke that allowed you to block me.
out in plain words your personal attacks, knowing how much you hurt people I hurt people by adding information on atrocities made by German units ? What are you talking about ? -- Molobo 03:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
So what's wrong with the above sources? Do we have any sources to the contrary? If we have a source A saying X, and nothing but our own opinion that it is wrong, I am afraid source has a precedence over our own opinions. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it is acceptable with scholarship produced under a communist dicatorship. If you have any reasons to believe that that particular work is biased state them, furthermore in 1961 we hardly had any "communist dictatorship".I see no reason to consider work on World War 2 discounted simply because it was done under socialism.If you have any evidence that the book is untrustworthy, was manipulated or is discredited by historians-be my guest provide such sources. -- Molobo 02:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Molobo, it does not matter whether a dictatorship is Communist or Nazi. The socialist authoritiarian government in Poland of 1961 isn't compareble to Nazi regime in its control over political research or studies. State dictated scholarship is not limited to dictatorships Again Poland was an authoritiarian regime but certainly not a dictatorship.Scholary works rarely were influenced by the state unless they dealt with the history of party in Poland.Do you have any proof that this particular research was done on behalf of Polish government for propaganda purpouse ? -- Molobo 10:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
In responce to your accusations that I have antigerman bias because I put information on Rommels execution of prisoner. To quote
"but with your confessed anti Germanism, which is the omnipresent underlying issue here."
Seems from begining the interest wasn't about the facts but about name calling those who put them. -- Molobo 02:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Refuted by your claims that Polish books that I gave are nothing more then personal blogs. -- Molobo 02:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Of course you did by saying : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Erwin_Rommel Another comment from Cadorna (this time comparing Jews to Klu Klux Klan and Nazi units to oppresed minority) : http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=12th_SS_Panzer_Division_Hitlerjugend&action=history "(Serious sources only, please - using www.jewishlibrary.org as a source on this matter is like quoting the KKK on the Black Power article)" --Molobo 16:54, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
I've been reading thru the discussion, and I think that rather than a comparison, he was merely offering an example of what an unneutral source is. On the other hand, you, Molobo, have much more to answer for. Shauri 17:02, 3 August 2005 (UTC) Again-what I had much to answer for was puting a simple fact that Rommel executed a French prisoner. -- Molobo 02:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
as I've grown weary of stating at your Talk page. I still await the apollogy you promised me, though... As said :Shauri defended a user comparing Jews to KKK and Nazis to opressed minority. The same user said Yad Vashem and Jewishlibrary aren't neutral sources.Shauri agreed with that.Perhaps my wording was inaccurate.Treat this as one. If Shauri doesn't believe so, then she just needs to confirm that Yad Vashem and Jewishlibrary aren't compareble to KKK and are respectable resources.I will gladly apologize to her if I was mistaken and she didn't support that users views.--Molobo 15:47, 31 October 2005
the issue pointed out by him remains, and has been endorsed by many other editors. Interested in German topics-I can't argue with that.
In which way was I wrong ? -- Molobo 02:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
What are you talking about Wiglaf ? -- Molobo 10:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)