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Issue with the stated involvement of Russian nationals and Transdnestrian nationals. This has not been verified as accurate and many articles are not pushing that information. Even the BBC, like here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27275383. I say that the involvement of those parties be removed until further verification. Much like how forces found Right Sector ID card recently near Slavyansk. -BloodofIndependence — Preceding unsigned comment added by BloodofIndependence ( talk • contribs) 19:58, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Not the good name. Clashes started near the "Sobornaya Square", then moved to the "Grecheskaya Square", and ended there. Trade Union House was set aflame in revenge a few hours later. Барон Суббота ( talk) 23:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Haven't written here before so hope I don't mess up the system. Just wanted to say that reports that those burned to death were Russian or Moldaovian citizens is BS. According to Kyiv Post they were all local residents: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/odessa-who-is-to-blame-for-46-odessa-deaths-346817.html . According to ITAR-TASS they were of both sexes and between 18 and 62 years old. http://en.itar-tass.com/world/730551 This point in the article should be changed. Symonenko ( talk) 22:25, 7 May 2014 (UTC) Symonenko
Does anyone have an eye on the russian language page ? Considering the scale of Russian state- propoganda, I would be suprised if the Russian Wikipedia articles on this topic were not biased as well. Anybody round here read russian and could give an idea of what the article there looks like? (I guess changing it to a more neutral version may be difficult). Hmm 188.98.179.224 ( talk) 09:13, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Glad to see that English Wikipedia has not (yet) been taken over by Kiev's Hunta propaganda machine. But very funny that a resident of Ukraine decided to assess the number of savvy in Russia. by Topic: I would suggest to remove from the card "Russian nationalists". Since the link says only about three detained Russian citizens, without affiliation to any organization. 188.114.49.230 ( talk) 00:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC) Vlad Sh
Sorry but just people with brains washed propaganda everywhere see "KGB" "GRU" "FSB". "Junta" is just one of the terms for the current government in Kiev. Keep yourself in the hands. 109.165.17.54 ( talk) 05:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC) Vlad Sh
Any objections if I (or any other administrator) would replace the link St. George Ribbon with Ribbon of Saint George and solve the two links to disambigs? It should be pretty much uncontroversial I hope.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 07:25, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
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2 May 2014 Odessa clashes has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change the infobox to include the 'claimed', as discussed above. I will provide the code here:
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RGloucester — ☎ 16:27, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Right Sector was not "claimed". Their official site confirms their involvement
At official Right Sector website
"Так, бійці «Правого сектора» та інші українські патріоти понесли втрати вбитими та пораненими. Проте втрати серед російських терористів були набагато більшими, а саме явище «сепаратистів» у Одесі зникло як фактор. Усе це – заслуга об’єднаної патріотичними почуттями громадськості."
"Yes, the men "the right sector" and other Ukrainian patriots suffered losses in killed and wounded. However, the toll of Russian terrorists were much higher, namely the phenomenon of "separatists" in Odessa disappeared as a factor. All this - the merit of a united patriotic feelings of the public."
http://pravyysektor.info/articles/ato-po-narodnomu-abo-chomu-ne-vladimir-putin-ne-vviv-vijska/
http://archive.is/y12mT
Cathry ( talk) 11:40, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I am aware of the intensity of the debate here, the unreliability of using direct sources (videos or victims' testimonies) and Wikipedians reasonable subjective (read the disclosure above) and objective abhorrence of blogs, LiveJournal or otherwise, as sources. However, given the continuous stonewalling of the official Kiev's investigation into the identity of the February 2014 Maidan snipers three months after the event, I am suggesting that we actively search for third-party major news agencies mentioning the very serious and substantiated allegations listed and partly substantiated by amateur sleuths.
(After much thought, I decided not to list them here, to avoid offending the sensibilities and using Wikipedia as a forum for repeating these allegations].
However, I need to list at least one such allegation: a "National Anticorruption Portal" article and a Russian Wiki Reality record, both archived by me now - I really need to reference the latter here, sorry for overriding the Wiki blacklist thereby.
Why?
IMHO, the smoking gun is the official TV report "Андрей Парубий подарил добровольцам одесской самообороны современные бронежилеты", published on 29 Apr 2014, thus BEFORE the massacre, by the Взгляд из Одессы news agency, of Andriy Volodymyrovych Parubiy meeting and shaking hands with the infamous sotnik Nikolai Volkov (НИКОЛАЙ ВОЛКОВ), a confirmed criminal sought by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine since 2012 (see its archive thereof that I have just created in case it is gone too soon). Because this official search notice and the TV report may soon disappear from the Web, I am quoting the latter's YT description: "Секретарь Совета национальной безопасности и обороны Украины подарил добровольцам, дежурящим на патриотических блок-постах на въезде в Одессу современные бронежилеты 5-го класса защиты.", quick translation: "the secretary of the Internal Affairs Ministry provides the volunteers manning the patriotic roadblocks at the entrance to Odessa the modern vests of the fifth protection class" (whatever they may be), see 0:54 and later. As many of you have seen, Mr Volkov was clearly recorded shooting into the anti-Maidan side ( another fresh archive, just in case).
(FYI, I was trying to alert the Ministry thereof, informing them that "I found your fugitive - only last week he was shaking hands, consulting and receiving protective gear from your bosses", but they provide only phone numbers for the contact, while my Ukrainian is not up to scratch yet. A Ukrainian speaker may thus wish to call the Ministry ("tel. 048-779-49-61") about it, on my behalf, to perform her civic duty. <Irony off and common sense on> )
( Zezen ( talk) 18:09, 7 May 2014 (UTC)).
Volkov aside, I proved that Parubiy was in cahoots with the shooters. A picture speaks louder than words: here is a screenshots of this Parubiy's meeting the alleged shooter, a confirmed fugitive criminal (see the official source above), discussing the tactics:
http://oi57.tinypic.com/2z8n2uq.jpg. Later Volkov is even given the vest.
See the film for a fuller picture. It is direct evidence, in high res, of Volkov working together and planning events with Parubiy. Zezen ( talk) 00:40, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
[1] Attorney General says it was a planned action and theres the investigation on the police inaction or collaboration, which should probably be added to the overall investigation. I don't think the current article talks enough about the role of police in the events. -- Львівське ( говорити) 20:47, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Ukraine’s Minister of Interior Arsen Avakov reported that former chief of Odessa oblast police Dmytro Fuchedzhi has been placed on a wanted list.
“Mr Fuchedzhi crossed the state border of Ukraine at 5 am this morning and is now a fugitive from justice; he has been placed on a wanted list”, said Avakov to journalists gathered at Kharkiv airport on Wednesday, May 7.
He also reported that prosecution bodies have detained three police officers in connection with pretrial investigation into Odessa events, and they are now being transported to Kyiv for interrogation.
-- Львівське ( говорити) 18:43, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Two Odessa fire survivors, both in the anti-government camp, tell their stories
A couple of useful quotes:
Herzen ( talk) 20:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
It's a good article and I think shows that while the KP is pro-west provides fair coverage. Not sure what we can use from it given its witness reports and weight, and we talked about this above, but this is what I found interesting:
But this is what I'll file under conspiracy theory (like Poroshenko talking about the chemicals and it being a false flag orchestrated to increase deaths (not endorsing the theory, just pointing this out)
-- Львівське ( говорити) 21:59, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I find this and other related articles extremely dependent on the POV of the Ukrainian side. I therefore started a thread at the RSN.-- Kathovo talk 13:23, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
More or less the story Lvivske is trying to present as 'truth' is as follows pro-Russian terrorists and some foreigners attacked a 'much larger' pro-'Ukrainian' rally, then they hided themselves in a building...which they did set on fire in order to commit suicide...Oh Mondieu... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.231.211 ( talk) 18:20, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
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I'd like it if an administrator would add this image to the aftermath section.
RGloucester — ☎ 17:37, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
@ Ymblanter: I'm fairly sure this is uncontroversial, and it would be nice to get a relevant picture into the article. Could please carry this out? RGloucester — ☎ 17:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
A list has been released by a source saying the 36 who died in the building or thereabouts. It's unconfirmed by authorities so I'm not sure if we can use it. The list also doesn't specify if they were only pro-Russians or if this is just 36 of the 46 identified so far. According to the list only one died of burns, which I guess dismisses all those photos of people burned to death found on the Russian blogosphere and twitter. Also, most died of smoke inhalation which lines up with other reports already out in the press. -- Львівське ( говорити) 00:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@Lvivske - they might be dismissing it because of photo analysis of the bodies. A lot of people see the building have little fire damage, barricades erected (no fire damage), people burnt only above the torso. A pregnant woman presumably strangled. A woman with no pants that is assumed tho have been raped. There are also bodies with bullet wounds to the face. They analyze the photos and conclude people did not die from the fire.
one dead is government official Vyacheslav Markin [4] -- Львівське ( говорити) 00:30, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
This source of Odessa news says the Odessa Regional Council deputy says 116 died in the fire.
[5] is this possible or reported elsewhere? can it be verified? --
Львівське (
говорити) 02:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
This article tries to debunk a bunch of the theories, like the pic floating around of the pregnant woman [9] -- Львівське ( говорити) 14:43, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Can we get some more definitive sourcing here? Officially, Right Sector isn't actively involved in militant ops in the south and east of ukraine [10], but obviously individual members can be anywhere in a personal capacity. The BBC source used says [11] "Some were veteran supporters of Kiev's Maidan protest movement - the Maidan Self Defence Forces - and/or part of the right-wing Pravy Sektor (Right Sector)." So from this source it's not clear "they were either self defense or right sector" essentially. This is stated mater of factly in the article, and has no other sources. We need to remove this 'theory' without something more concrete from a reliable source. -- Львівське ( говорити) 00:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
At official Right Sector website "Так, бійці «Правого сектора» та інші українські патріоти понесли втрати вбитими та пораненими. Проте втрати серед російських терористів були набагато більшими, а саме явище «сепаратистів» у Одесі зникло як фактор. Усе це – заслуга об’єднаної патріотичними почуттями громадськості." "Yes, the men "the right sector" and other Ukrainian patriots suffered losses in killed and wounded. However, the toll of Russian terrorists were much higher, namely the phenomenon of "separatists" in Odessa disappeared as a factor. All this - the merit of a united patriotic feelings of the public."
http://pravyysektor.info/articles/ato-po-narodnomu-abo-chomu-ne-vladimir-putin-ne-vviv-vijska/ http://archive.is/y12mT
Some hate speech more "May 2, 2014 was another bright page of our national history. During this day, despite the efforts of the MUP, indifferent public abolished the putin Sabbath and ordinary mercenaries degenerates in Odessa."
So, they obviously took part in clashes and murder and are proud of it. Cathry ( talk) 11:40, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
The latest daily update from the OSCE has included some information about the Odessa fire:
The Head of the Regional Bureau of Forensics informed the SMM that a total of 46 bodies had been transferred to the its morgue, among whom were five people shot dead in the clashes at Soborna street, and 41 other fatalities in Kulikove Pole. According to the interlocutor, the majority of the deceased have already been identified as mostly from Odessa and the neighbouring regions. The final report of the forensic investigation is expected to be finalised in about one month’s time.
I'm not sure about 'neighbouring regions', as Transnistria does neighbour Odessa Oblast, but it seems like the idea of a stream of Transnistrians participating has been disproven. RGloucester — ☎ 16:37, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
@ Lvivske: There were definately no Transnistrians or even Russians killed. Read this Kyiv Post bit. RGloucester — ☎ 23:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
I would like to add THIS information from the OSCE May 9th report.
at the end of the aftermath section. Source: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/118417 BloodofIndependence ( talk) 22:30, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
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Please add this to end of the 2nd paragraph in the "casualties" section:
It was later determined that most of those who died in the fire were from Odessa, and that a minority were from neighbouring regions.
[14]
RGloucester —
☎ 22:00, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
If anybody can provide sources for this, milhist tag can be restored by undoing this edit. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:09, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Other than a requirement for military or paramilitary involvement, we do not limit the events to which terms such as "war" or "battle" are applied; it is generally enough for the term to be used by reliable sources. Editors should beware, however, of interpreting such usage too literally; the popular media often uses them to describe civil law enforcement matters such as "gang wars" or "street battles", which are not typically within our scope.
— WP:MILHIST scope
A post-event picture should what seemed to be a pregnant woman, not killed by the fire. Source: http://observers.france24.com/content/20140513-strangled-woman-odessa-photo-ukraine
"The photo was taken by a woman who goes by the name “Alena”. Alena says she went to the scene the day after the fire to search for a relative who had disappeared. She first published the photo on May 3 in a Facebook album retracing her visit through the building. She then reposted it in on her Facebook wall on May 7, along with a short explanation. She wrote that, following numerous reactions to this photo, she wanted to clarify the context in which it was taken. She says she took it on the building’s fourth floor, and that she regrets not photographing more angles of the body in order to help understand the reasons for her death.
In the same post, Alena says that the dead woman was rather old and that she doubts she could have been pregnant, contrary to the rumours circulating online. In the photo, the woman indeed appears to be at least 50 years old.
Meanwhile, journalists in Odessa asked both the local hospital and the morgue that dealt with the victims whether they had heard of this mysterious woman. Both establishments said that there were no pregnant women among the victims. The Ukrainian authorities confirmed this.
One of our sources also told us he exchanged emails with a relative of the woman. This source claims the victim had “nothing do to do with the separatists” and was simply an employee of the trade union house.
Medical reports conclude that most of the victims died due to the fire, and some from gunshot wounds, which the authorities say could be stray bullets. However, as many Internet users have pointed out, the woman’s position on the desk seems rather strange. We showed the photo to a coroner. This was his reaction:
“We cannot exclude the possibility of asphyxiation. However, the body’s position does not correspond with what you would expect would happen when someone suddenly loses consciousness. You would expect to find them on the ground. This position, with her bottom on the desk, makes me think that someone placed her there. The absence of any trace of the fire in the room also makes asphyxiation seem unlikely, though of course we cannot completely rule out the emission of toxic gases, since we don’t know when the window was opened.” The doctor added that strangulation, or a strike on the head, are both possibilities that could explain her death.
A provided video of the events from outside have at 0’23 minutes, you can hear a woman scream; later, at 2’10, someone waves a Ukrainian flag out of one of the building’s windows. Some believe this proves the pro-Kiev ultranationalists committed violence acts; others say the flag could have been waved by pro-Russians seeking to discredit their enemies."
The article is written well, and is from a general neutral point-of-view. Since this incident is being widely circulated, maybe some clarification for people so as to get a neutral and factual account. BloodofIndependence ( talk) 17:51, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
And the source is from a legitimate international news agency, based in France, operating since 2006. Not a tabloid.
Additional sources: http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2014/05/odessas-fire-examined http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/euromaidan-pr-moscow-journalist-says-there-was-no-pregnant-woman-in-odesa-trade-unions-building-347198.html http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/05/140510-ukraine-odessa-russia-kiev-twitter-world/ http://www.ibtimes.com/moscow-ukraine-war-worries-mind-russia-celebrates-world-war-2-victory-1581975
BloodofIndependence ( talk) 19:48, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
The IB Times article mentions this, and I think this is all that's worth mentioning in the article virtually verbatim (that IBT and F24 mention the pregnant woman makes it somewhat notable in of itself:
The episode was reported by some Russian media and in some social networks, but an investigation by Radio Free Europe’s Russian service found there was no evidence that it ever happened. Doctors said they had never seen her among the dead.
I would also like to point out that economist and national geographic both failed verification, and KP never reported on this directly — Львівське ( говорити) 20:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
= Which I pointed out. The article said that it was confirmed there was no 'pregnant' woman among the victims. The victim in question was verified by doctors and eye witness to be an older woman. The main point is that propaganda is being used to continue the portrayal as pregnant which increased tensions. The event is being used as a 'flashpoint' trigger events like archduke and the Boston massacre to condone violence against the perpetrator. BloodofIndependence ( talk) 07:00, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Even when an event is notable, individuals involved in it may not be. Unless news coverage of an individual goes beyond the context of a single event, our coverage of that individual should be limited to the article about that event, in proportion to their importance to the overall topic.
— WP:NOTNEWS
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was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Firefighters work at the burned Trade Union building which had been occupied by pro-Russian militants
many of the dead were pro-Russia militants who had retreated into a trade union building
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was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).An eyewitness account from Odesa posted online states that Russian-backed militants shot at and killed at least four soccer fans
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Issue with the stated involvement of Russian nationals and Transdnestrian nationals. This has not been verified as accurate and many articles are not pushing that information. Even the BBC, like here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27275383. I say that the involvement of those parties be removed until further verification. Much like how forces found Right Sector ID card recently near Slavyansk. -BloodofIndependence — Preceding unsigned comment added by BloodofIndependence ( talk • contribs) 19:58, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Not the good name. Clashes started near the "Sobornaya Square", then moved to the "Grecheskaya Square", and ended there. Trade Union House was set aflame in revenge a few hours later. Барон Суббота ( talk) 23:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Haven't written here before so hope I don't mess up the system. Just wanted to say that reports that those burned to death were Russian or Moldaovian citizens is BS. According to Kyiv Post they were all local residents: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/odessa-who-is-to-blame-for-46-odessa-deaths-346817.html . According to ITAR-TASS they were of both sexes and between 18 and 62 years old. http://en.itar-tass.com/world/730551 This point in the article should be changed. Symonenko ( talk) 22:25, 7 May 2014 (UTC) Symonenko
Does anyone have an eye on the russian language page ? Considering the scale of Russian state- propoganda, I would be suprised if the Russian Wikipedia articles on this topic were not biased as well. Anybody round here read russian and could give an idea of what the article there looks like? (I guess changing it to a more neutral version may be difficult). Hmm 188.98.179.224 ( talk) 09:13, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Glad to see that English Wikipedia has not (yet) been taken over by Kiev's Hunta propaganda machine. But very funny that a resident of Ukraine decided to assess the number of savvy in Russia. by Topic: I would suggest to remove from the card "Russian nationalists". Since the link says only about three detained Russian citizens, without affiliation to any organization. 188.114.49.230 ( talk) 00:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC) Vlad Sh
Sorry but just people with brains washed propaganda everywhere see "KGB" "GRU" "FSB". "Junta" is just one of the terms for the current government in Kiev. Keep yourself in the hands. 109.165.17.54 ( talk) 05:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC) Vlad Sh
Any objections if I (or any other administrator) would replace the link St. George Ribbon with Ribbon of Saint George and solve the two links to disambigs? It should be pretty much uncontroversial I hope.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 07:25, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
2 May 2014 Odessa clashes has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change the infobox to include the 'claimed', as discussed above. I will provide the code here:
Extended content
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RGloucester — ☎ 16:27, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Right Sector was not "claimed". Their official site confirms their involvement
At official Right Sector website
"Так, бійці «Правого сектора» та інші українські патріоти понесли втрати вбитими та пораненими. Проте втрати серед російських терористів були набагато більшими, а саме явище «сепаратистів» у Одесі зникло як фактор. Усе це – заслуга об’єднаної патріотичними почуттями громадськості."
"Yes, the men "the right sector" and other Ukrainian patriots suffered losses in killed and wounded. However, the toll of Russian terrorists were much higher, namely the phenomenon of "separatists" in Odessa disappeared as a factor. All this - the merit of a united patriotic feelings of the public."
http://pravyysektor.info/articles/ato-po-narodnomu-abo-chomu-ne-vladimir-putin-ne-vviv-vijska/
http://archive.is/y12mT
Cathry ( talk) 11:40, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I am aware of the intensity of the debate here, the unreliability of using direct sources (videos or victims' testimonies) and Wikipedians reasonable subjective (read the disclosure above) and objective abhorrence of blogs, LiveJournal or otherwise, as sources. However, given the continuous stonewalling of the official Kiev's investigation into the identity of the February 2014 Maidan snipers three months after the event, I am suggesting that we actively search for third-party major news agencies mentioning the very serious and substantiated allegations listed and partly substantiated by amateur sleuths.
(After much thought, I decided not to list them here, to avoid offending the sensibilities and using Wikipedia as a forum for repeating these allegations].
However, I need to list at least one such allegation: a "National Anticorruption Portal" article and a Russian Wiki Reality record, both archived by me now - I really need to reference the latter here, sorry for overriding the Wiki blacklist thereby.
Why?
IMHO, the smoking gun is the official TV report "Андрей Парубий подарил добровольцам одесской самообороны современные бронежилеты", published on 29 Apr 2014, thus BEFORE the massacre, by the Взгляд из Одессы news agency, of Andriy Volodymyrovych Parubiy meeting and shaking hands with the infamous sotnik Nikolai Volkov (НИКОЛАЙ ВОЛКОВ), a confirmed criminal sought by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine since 2012 (see its archive thereof that I have just created in case it is gone too soon). Because this official search notice and the TV report may soon disappear from the Web, I am quoting the latter's YT description: "Секретарь Совета национальной безопасности и обороны Украины подарил добровольцам, дежурящим на патриотических блок-постах на въезде в Одессу современные бронежилеты 5-го класса защиты.", quick translation: "the secretary of the Internal Affairs Ministry provides the volunteers manning the patriotic roadblocks at the entrance to Odessa the modern vests of the fifth protection class" (whatever they may be), see 0:54 and later. As many of you have seen, Mr Volkov was clearly recorded shooting into the anti-Maidan side ( another fresh archive, just in case).
(FYI, I was trying to alert the Ministry thereof, informing them that "I found your fugitive - only last week he was shaking hands, consulting and receiving protective gear from your bosses", but they provide only phone numbers for the contact, while my Ukrainian is not up to scratch yet. A Ukrainian speaker may thus wish to call the Ministry ("tel. 048-779-49-61") about it, on my behalf, to perform her civic duty. <Irony off and common sense on> )
( Zezen ( talk) 18:09, 7 May 2014 (UTC)).
Volkov aside, I proved that Parubiy was in cahoots with the shooters. A picture speaks louder than words: here is a screenshots of this Parubiy's meeting the alleged shooter, a confirmed fugitive criminal (see the official source above), discussing the tactics:
http://oi57.tinypic.com/2z8n2uq.jpg. Later Volkov is even given the vest.
See the film for a fuller picture. It is direct evidence, in high res, of Volkov working together and planning events with Parubiy. Zezen ( talk) 00:40, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
[1] Attorney General says it was a planned action and theres the investigation on the police inaction or collaboration, which should probably be added to the overall investigation. I don't think the current article talks enough about the role of police in the events. -- Львівське ( говорити) 20:47, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Ukraine’s Minister of Interior Arsen Avakov reported that former chief of Odessa oblast police Dmytro Fuchedzhi has been placed on a wanted list.
“Mr Fuchedzhi crossed the state border of Ukraine at 5 am this morning and is now a fugitive from justice; he has been placed on a wanted list”, said Avakov to journalists gathered at Kharkiv airport on Wednesday, May 7.
He also reported that prosecution bodies have detained three police officers in connection with pretrial investigation into Odessa events, and they are now being transported to Kyiv for interrogation.
-- Львівське ( говорити) 18:43, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Two Odessa fire survivors, both in the anti-government camp, tell their stories
A couple of useful quotes:
Herzen ( talk) 20:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
It's a good article and I think shows that while the KP is pro-west provides fair coverage. Not sure what we can use from it given its witness reports and weight, and we talked about this above, but this is what I found interesting:
But this is what I'll file under conspiracy theory (like Poroshenko talking about the chemicals and it being a false flag orchestrated to increase deaths (not endorsing the theory, just pointing this out)
-- Львівське ( говорити) 21:59, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I find this and other related articles extremely dependent on the POV of the Ukrainian side. I therefore started a thread at the RSN.-- Kathovo talk 13:23, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
More or less the story Lvivske is trying to present as 'truth' is as follows pro-Russian terrorists and some foreigners attacked a 'much larger' pro-'Ukrainian' rally, then they hided themselves in a building...which they did set on fire in order to commit suicide...Oh Mondieu... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.231.211 ( talk) 18:20, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
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I'd like it if an administrator would add this image to the aftermath section.
RGloucester — ☎ 17:37, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
@ Ymblanter: I'm fairly sure this is uncontroversial, and it would be nice to get a relevant picture into the article. Could please carry this out? RGloucester — ☎ 17:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
A list has been released by a source saying the 36 who died in the building or thereabouts. It's unconfirmed by authorities so I'm not sure if we can use it. The list also doesn't specify if they were only pro-Russians or if this is just 36 of the 46 identified so far. According to the list only one died of burns, which I guess dismisses all those photos of people burned to death found on the Russian blogosphere and twitter. Also, most died of smoke inhalation which lines up with other reports already out in the press. -- Львівське ( говорити) 00:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@Lvivske - they might be dismissing it because of photo analysis of the bodies. A lot of people see the building have little fire damage, barricades erected (no fire damage), people burnt only above the torso. A pregnant woman presumably strangled. A woman with no pants that is assumed tho have been raped. There are also bodies with bullet wounds to the face. They analyze the photos and conclude people did not die from the fire.
one dead is government official Vyacheslav Markin [4] -- Львівське ( говорити) 00:30, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
This source of Odessa news says the Odessa Regional Council deputy says 116 died in the fire.
[5] is this possible or reported elsewhere? can it be verified? --
Львівське (
говорити) 02:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
This article tries to debunk a bunch of the theories, like the pic floating around of the pregnant woman [9] -- Львівське ( говорити) 14:43, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Can we get some more definitive sourcing here? Officially, Right Sector isn't actively involved in militant ops in the south and east of ukraine [10], but obviously individual members can be anywhere in a personal capacity. The BBC source used says [11] "Some were veteran supporters of Kiev's Maidan protest movement - the Maidan Self Defence Forces - and/or part of the right-wing Pravy Sektor (Right Sector)." So from this source it's not clear "they were either self defense or right sector" essentially. This is stated mater of factly in the article, and has no other sources. We need to remove this 'theory' without something more concrete from a reliable source. -- Львівське ( говорити) 00:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
At official Right Sector website "Так, бійці «Правого сектора» та інші українські патріоти понесли втрати вбитими та пораненими. Проте втрати серед російських терористів були набагато більшими, а саме явище «сепаратистів» у Одесі зникло як фактор. Усе це – заслуга об’єднаної патріотичними почуттями громадськості." "Yes, the men "the right sector" and other Ukrainian patriots suffered losses in killed and wounded. However, the toll of Russian terrorists were much higher, namely the phenomenon of "separatists" in Odessa disappeared as a factor. All this - the merit of a united patriotic feelings of the public."
http://pravyysektor.info/articles/ato-po-narodnomu-abo-chomu-ne-vladimir-putin-ne-vviv-vijska/ http://archive.is/y12mT
Some hate speech more "May 2, 2014 was another bright page of our national history. During this day, despite the efforts of the MUP, indifferent public abolished the putin Sabbath and ordinary mercenaries degenerates in Odessa."
So, they obviously took part in clashes and murder and are proud of it. Cathry ( talk) 11:40, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
The latest daily update from the OSCE has included some information about the Odessa fire:
The Head of the Regional Bureau of Forensics informed the SMM that a total of 46 bodies had been transferred to the its morgue, among whom were five people shot dead in the clashes at Soborna street, and 41 other fatalities in Kulikove Pole. According to the interlocutor, the majority of the deceased have already been identified as mostly from Odessa and the neighbouring regions. The final report of the forensic investigation is expected to be finalised in about one month’s time.
I'm not sure about 'neighbouring regions', as Transnistria does neighbour Odessa Oblast, but it seems like the idea of a stream of Transnistrians participating has been disproven. RGloucester — ☎ 16:37, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
@ Lvivske: There were definately no Transnistrians or even Russians killed. Read this Kyiv Post bit. RGloucester — ☎ 23:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
I would like to add THIS information from the OSCE May 9th report.
at the end of the aftermath section. Source: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/118417 BloodofIndependence ( talk) 22:30, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
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Please add this to end of the 2nd paragraph in the "casualties" section:
It was later determined that most of those who died in the fire were from Odessa, and that a minority were from neighbouring regions.
[14]
RGloucester —
☎ 22:00, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
If anybody can provide sources for this, milhist tag can be restored by undoing this edit. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:09, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Other than a requirement for military or paramilitary involvement, we do not limit the events to which terms such as "war" or "battle" are applied; it is generally enough for the term to be used by reliable sources. Editors should beware, however, of interpreting such usage too literally; the popular media often uses them to describe civil law enforcement matters such as "gang wars" or "street battles", which are not typically within our scope.
— WP:MILHIST scope
A post-event picture should what seemed to be a pregnant woman, not killed by the fire. Source: http://observers.france24.com/content/20140513-strangled-woman-odessa-photo-ukraine
"The photo was taken by a woman who goes by the name “Alena”. Alena says she went to the scene the day after the fire to search for a relative who had disappeared. She first published the photo on May 3 in a Facebook album retracing her visit through the building. She then reposted it in on her Facebook wall on May 7, along with a short explanation. She wrote that, following numerous reactions to this photo, she wanted to clarify the context in which it was taken. She says she took it on the building’s fourth floor, and that she regrets not photographing more angles of the body in order to help understand the reasons for her death.
In the same post, Alena says that the dead woman was rather old and that she doubts she could have been pregnant, contrary to the rumours circulating online. In the photo, the woman indeed appears to be at least 50 years old.
Meanwhile, journalists in Odessa asked both the local hospital and the morgue that dealt with the victims whether they had heard of this mysterious woman. Both establishments said that there were no pregnant women among the victims. The Ukrainian authorities confirmed this.
One of our sources also told us he exchanged emails with a relative of the woman. This source claims the victim had “nothing do to do with the separatists” and was simply an employee of the trade union house.
Medical reports conclude that most of the victims died due to the fire, and some from gunshot wounds, which the authorities say could be stray bullets. However, as many Internet users have pointed out, the woman’s position on the desk seems rather strange. We showed the photo to a coroner. This was his reaction:
“We cannot exclude the possibility of asphyxiation. However, the body’s position does not correspond with what you would expect would happen when someone suddenly loses consciousness. You would expect to find them on the ground. This position, with her bottom on the desk, makes me think that someone placed her there. The absence of any trace of the fire in the room also makes asphyxiation seem unlikely, though of course we cannot completely rule out the emission of toxic gases, since we don’t know when the window was opened.” The doctor added that strangulation, or a strike on the head, are both possibilities that could explain her death.
A provided video of the events from outside have at 0’23 minutes, you can hear a woman scream; later, at 2’10, someone waves a Ukrainian flag out of one of the building’s windows. Some believe this proves the pro-Kiev ultranationalists committed violence acts; others say the flag could have been waved by pro-Russians seeking to discredit their enemies."
The article is written well, and is from a general neutral point-of-view. Since this incident is being widely circulated, maybe some clarification for people so as to get a neutral and factual account. BloodofIndependence ( talk) 17:51, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
And the source is from a legitimate international news agency, based in France, operating since 2006. Not a tabloid.
Additional sources: http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2014/05/odessas-fire-examined http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/euromaidan-pr-moscow-journalist-says-there-was-no-pregnant-woman-in-odesa-trade-unions-building-347198.html http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/05/140510-ukraine-odessa-russia-kiev-twitter-world/ http://www.ibtimes.com/moscow-ukraine-war-worries-mind-russia-celebrates-world-war-2-victory-1581975
BloodofIndependence ( talk) 19:48, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
The IB Times article mentions this, and I think this is all that's worth mentioning in the article virtually verbatim (that IBT and F24 mention the pregnant woman makes it somewhat notable in of itself:
The episode was reported by some Russian media and in some social networks, but an investigation by Radio Free Europe’s Russian service found there was no evidence that it ever happened. Doctors said they had never seen her among the dead.
I would also like to point out that economist and national geographic both failed verification, and KP never reported on this directly — Львівське ( говорити) 20:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
= Which I pointed out. The article said that it was confirmed there was no 'pregnant' woman among the victims. The victim in question was verified by doctors and eye witness to be an older woman. The main point is that propaganda is being used to continue the portrayal as pregnant which increased tensions. The event is being used as a 'flashpoint' trigger events like archduke and the Boston massacre to condone violence against the perpetrator. BloodofIndependence ( talk) 07:00, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Even when an event is notable, individuals involved in it may not be. Unless news coverage of an individual goes beyond the context of a single event, our coverage of that individual should be limited to the article about that event, in proportion to their importance to the overall topic.
— WP:NOTNEWS
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