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On the 13th of July there was widespread flooding in the U.K., the worst flooding in a single day for 10 years, perhaps include it under the location section? 82.21.156.252 ( talk) 18:23, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Well, I was about to suggest the opposite. The UK's flooding was more inconsequential here - "some tube stations got closed due to flash flooding" is a fairly common occurence here in London, and is not worthy of an article, and thus I wouldn't really consider it to be a major factor. Spa-Franks ( talk) 16:34, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
There was flash flooding in parts of Dorset - totals highest in a decade. Admittedly, not a serious as in Europe as no fatalities, which shows how much the system developed as it moved east. https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19435809.live-updates-crashes-a338-spur-road/ https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19435847.flooding-poole-heavy-rain-showers-area/ https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19437653.large-levels-flooding-recorded-across-dorset/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/57819116
A section about UK. Seriously? In London a heavy storm rain stopped by flooding a few tube lines, Overground, etc (major travel disruption is not a remarkable event in London) My wife came home late, with shoes and trousers soaked, and my poor cat had to stay indoors. "most rainy day in 10 years..." that's why UK deserves a section in "2021 European floods"? This must be a joke. Francisco Fernandez Rodriguez ( talk) 21:57, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Cerberon-900, please stop changing the number of deaths in individual places without providing a source. Contentious statements require a source. — Berrely • Talk∕ Contribs 14:01, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Railtech has a story about disruption to rail services, including a derailment in Belgium caused by the flooding. There are other stories linked from that article. Mjroots ( talk) 18:41, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
The article states "In Luxembourg, 2,000 people were evacuated from their homes in Trier...", but Trier is in Germany, close to the border with Luxembourg. — Mahāgaja · talk 08:15, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
8876y6t tre! 212.25.69.10 ( talk) 18:10, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
In Luxembourg, tourists had to evacuate camping sites around small towns. In Rosport, where about 2000 people live, 6 of the tourists in the camping site had to leave. also some residents had their homes flooded as well and had to find shelter. Some had to be rescued by boats and dinghies, with almost no time to pack their things, can you believe it? So that's another section for another destroyed country. Is this a race to quickly include countries in the list of widespread destruction? Francisco Fernandez Rodriguez ( talk) 22:29, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Nicole van Lipzig, a geographer at the research university KU Leuven said the flooding was the result of ongoing climate change and that a similar meteorological event would not have happened on such a scale 100 years ago.
Why should we publisher some person's view on it- the source is clearly not a
medical reliable source? If it was someone at the top of the field, then maybe it should be added, but this just seems
WP:UNDUE to be posting the remarks of some seemingly random person.
Joseph
2302 (
talk)
12:51, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
The section on Global Climate Change is back, about 2 hours later is valid because references to some The Guardian article and a couple of "told you so" quotes validate it? If every natural disaster is proven 24 hours later to be climate change related by science and ipso facto published by press, one can start to fear there's some kind of blind acceptance of the problem, the diagnostic and the solution. Can somebody clarify how it's possible to assert this so quickly? Francisco Fernandez Rodriguez ( talk) 02:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
This event of particular intensity follows unprecedented heat waves in the Pacific Northwest and Northern Europelooks to be WP:SYNTH by implying all three are linked, when none of the sources listed make that link. Joseph 2302 ( talk) 10:41, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it's climate changes and the consequences of these changes. Nobody writes about this in press, but I'll say just the fact. I live in Moscow, Russia in Eastern Europe and we have since the mid of June very hot weather, above to +35°C in some days. And we have practically no rain for the last 3 weeks. I remember the 2010 heat wave, where we have temperatures up to +38-39°C. And I heard that floods were in Czech Republic and Poland due to cyclones, which couldn't break through the anticyclone in eastern Europe. Today it's the same situation like in 2010 but worser for Western Europe. -- Brateevsky ( talk to me) 10:57, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Nobody writes about this in press, but I'll say just the fact.&
Agree, just because one or two people say it's "caused by climate change", that doesn't mean it's been proved.See also WP:NOTTRUTH. -- LordPeterII ( talk) 12:03, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
I still think blaming this on Climate Change is premature. If you know anything about river management you know there are a lot of things at play, it's not just about the amount of rain that falls. If Climate Change is to blame, why was the St Mary Magdalene Flood of 1342 so much bigger than this one? Floods are characterised as 1 in [insert time period here] events. This may have been a 1 in 1000 year flood - why involve CLimate Change with next to no consideration of anything else - like building on flood plains. Weirs, and waterway management. Rivers don't like to be held back - all rivers flood. And humans like living on flood plains because they are flat and fertile. I'm suspicious when people immediately blame Climate Change for a weather event - and rest assured, a lot of insurers will be looking very closely at what caused this and how they will weight their future insurance premiums. Which is probably why I see a lot ofuninformed comments on here, not the real experts: the hydrologists and meteorologists. 27.33.200.168 ( talk) 12:37, 19 July 2021 (UTC)An old anonymous hack who has been watching the climate change debate for 30 years now and has a doctorate and some peer reviewed publications.
"An image of the Meuse and Roer rivers on July 16 (left) and on July 18 (right) as captured by the Operational Land Imager (OLI) on Landsat 8 shows flooding along the rivers" How is that probing the relationship between the European floods 2021 event and the climate change?. Lavidavi00 ( talk) 08:06, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Arguments cited in sources like "everything is connected" and "wave resonance" are at least subject of discussionis that we have no choice but to follow what the sources say. If you think that these sources misrepresent reality or that we give excessive WP:WEIGHT to them, you have to either (i) provide other, contradictory sources that make this point or (ii) prove that most other sources do not make these points. The problem with the 2002 source is that it does not directly address the 2021 floods like the current sources do: I accept that we can reasonably conclude from it that floods are a regular occurence, but unfortunately we cannot combine several sources of information to reach a conclusion that is not explicitly mentioned in the sources, so it would be better if you could provide sources that address the 2021 explicitly. In any event, I recognize that the image may give excessive WP:WEIGHT to the § Climate change section. Before taking action, however, I would just like to see what other editors think about that. JBchrch talk 10:58, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
How servere is the damage in Northern-Italy. The article references the country in the intro. But further down there is no further information about the situation. Secondly the infobox mentions 1 fatality but when I translate the article an uprooted tree hit a Indian citizen. So this was nog necessarily caused by water damage. Are there any other sources that can back this up. Melvinvk ( talk) 17:25, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Please, you should include these countries, could as well include Cerdeña, Corsica, Balearic Islands (one by one) and also the Canary Islands, don't forget they are in Europe as well. Sections explaining how many people had to use the umbrella, how many people was hit by how many rain drops, etc. Numbers, numbers always impress. Good night, I'll be back in the morning to see how is that going. I am surprised this entry doesn't specify deaths by region, how many people had to leave the tent o every camping, how many are "disappeared because mobile phone has no signal, etc. April_2015_Nepal_earthquake Francisco Fernandez Rodriguez ( talk) 02:32, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Not only I can confirm that for a short while, those numbers were raised/mentioned in the media because of broken mobile/telephone-infrastructure in a certain area. (Source: in german: by the spiegel (which is acknowledged by the english wikipedia). If you would like to the check the source for yourself you can do that with translation-addons. I am going to delete the mentioning of the missing persons and already have adressed the misinformation regarding the Mainpage In the news-headline. ---- LennBr ( talk) 14:10, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi. The infobox/lead mention France, but that's about it. Has there been any flooding as such in France? Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 17:33, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Flooding hit Salzburg, Austria today. More news will be forthcoming. It should soon be included in the map and article. 142.117.34.192 ( talk) 20:34, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Here are a few videos that could be migrated to commons to illustrate the article:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3-d9WrSqgk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCiwV3uxmXE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv7jli8Dq5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85lpY3Dk-6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcdPb_4vPl8
Victor Grigas ( talk) 23:07, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Here are some more photos and some videos too: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelshowmeine/ Victor Grigas ( talk) 23:51, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Flash Floods in Nowy Sącz https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3biKtRcJORA Niterurea ( talk) 19:44, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi. In order not to add something controversial, I wish to read opinions on whether Greta Thunberg's comments are to be included in the climate change section or not. She's an activist but not a scientist. Thanks. CoryGlee ( talk) 01:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Could you add some context about which comments you are referring to? Maybe even sources for them? 80.120.170.101 ( talk) 11:18, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
I see the basic Europe map in the infobox has now gone. Was there any discussion around this? I guess the new "Areas affected, EU Emergency Response Coordination Centre (ERCC)" map may be too big/ too detailed to go in the box. Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 15:10, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
This is about the "green image" in section "Connection to global climate change". The Landsat8 satellite photos now show the rivers Maas (from bottom) and Rhine (from top right). The source NASA website only shows a cutout at Roermond, where the Roer flows into the Maas. So either the title should be adjusted to Maas and Rhine, or the image should be cropped to show the ¿intended? image. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmarade ( talk • contribs)
After I was reverted by an IP for adding the map back, I hope to achieve consensus on the image in the infobox. Should it be:
I personally prefer the map, however, I am interested in others' opinions on this. — Berrely • Talk∕ Contribs 08:58, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
give readers visual confirmation that they've arrived at the right page. Pic A does not serve this function: it could be related to any article about a European political event or project. Pic B is alright, but meteorological images of that nature are not really useful for the general public, including me (what does red mean? heat? rain? floods?). Pic C shows a distinctly European city underwater: it's as illustrative as it gets, and you know you are at the right place. JBchrch talk 18:58, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
A quick websearch for "Turkey flooding" reveals a plethora of articles and footage dating from the 22nd and 23rd. If these can be shown to connect to the weather pattern's effects in Romania I think it's worth including, although if it's coincidental then perhaps some kind of compromise can be reached to prevent this article from getting too broad in scope. 90.195.37.193 ( talk) 20:09, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
This new report says that now 41 people died in Belgium [1], could someone modify the article for me ? I want to but I don't understand very developed articles code so I fear I might break something. Maxime12346 ( talk) 23:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
References
In the first box of the article, Turkey has been included with at least 77 deaths which is a significant number. But in the Impact section, we don't see Turkey. Please include it. Thanks. Aminabzz ( talk) 15:09, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Ibebuchi CC (2022) Patterns of atmospheric circulation in Western Europe linked to heavy rainfall in Germany: preliminary analysis into the 2021 heavy rainfall episode. Theor Appl Climatol. 148:269–283. https://doi.org/10.1007/s00704-022-03945-5 87.190.41.106 ( talk) 06:27, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2021 European floods article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | A news item involving 2021 European floods was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 16 July 2021. | ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
On the 13th of July there was widespread flooding in the U.K., the worst flooding in a single day for 10 years, perhaps include it under the location section? 82.21.156.252 ( talk) 18:23, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Well, I was about to suggest the opposite. The UK's flooding was more inconsequential here - "some tube stations got closed due to flash flooding" is a fairly common occurence here in London, and is not worthy of an article, and thus I wouldn't really consider it to be a major factor. Spa-Franks ( talk) 16:34, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
There was flash flooding in parts of Dorset - totals highest in a decade. Admittedly, not a serious as in Europe as no fatalities, which shows how much the system developed as it moved east. https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19435809.live-updates-crashes-a338-spur-road/ https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19435847.flooding-poole-heavy-rain-showers-area/ https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19437653.large-levels-flooding-recorded-across-dorset/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/57819116
A section about UK. Seriously? In London a heavy storm rain stopped by flooding a few tube lines, Overground, etc (major travel disruption is not a remarkable event in London) My wife came home late, with shoes and trousers soaked, and my poor cat had to stay indoors. "most rainy day in 10 years..." that's why UK deserves a section in "2021 European floods"? This must be a joke. Francisco Fernandez Rodriguez ( talk) 21:57, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Cerberon-900, please stop changing the number of deaths in individual places without providing a source. Contentious statements require a source. — Berrely • Talk∕ Contribs 14:01, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Railtech has a story about disruption to rail services, including a derailment in Belgium caused by the flooding. There are other stories linked from that article. Mjroots ( talk) 18:41, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
The article states "In Luxembourg, 2,000 people were evacuated from their homes in Trier...", but Trier is in Germany, close to the border with Luxembourg. — Mahāgaja · talk 08:15, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
8876y6t tre! 212.25.69.10 ( talk) 18:10, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
In Luxembourg, tourists had to evacuate camping sites around small towns. In Rosport, where about 2000 people live, 6 of the tourists in the camping site had to leave. also some residents had their homes flooded as well and had to find shelter. Some had to be rescued by boats and dinghies, with almost no time to pack their things, can you believe it? So that's another section for another destroyed country. Is this a race to quickly include countries in the list of widespread destruction? Francisco Fernandez Rodriguez ( talk) 22:29, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Nicole van Lipzig, a geographer at the research university KU Leuven said the flooding was the result of ongoing climate change and that a similar meteorological event would not have happened on such a scale 100 years ago.
Why should we publisher some person's view on it- the source is clearly not a
medical reliable source? If it was someone at the top of the field, then maybe it should be added, but this just seems
WP:UNDUE to be posting the remarks of some seemingly random person.
Joseph
2302 (
talk)
12:51, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
The section on Global Climate Change is back, about 2 hours later is valid because references to some The Guardian article and a couple of "told you so" quotes validate it? If every natural disaster is proven 24 hours later to be climate change related by science and ipso facto published by press, one can start to fear there's some kind of blind acceptance of the problem, the diagnostic and the solution. Can somebody clarify how it's possible to assert this so quickly? Francisco Fernandez Rodriguez ( talk) 02:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
This event of particular intensity follows unprecedented heat waves in the Pacific Northwest and Northern Europelooks to be WP:SYNTH by implying all three are linked, when none of the sources listed make that link. Joseph 2302 ( talk) 10:41, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it's climate changes and the consequences of these changes. Nobody writes about this in press, but I'll say just the fact. I live in Moscow, Russia in Eastern Europe and we have since the mid of June very hot weather, above to +35°C in some days. And we have practically no rain for the last 3 weeks. I remember the 2010 heat wave, where we have temperatures up to +38-39°C. And I heard that floods were in Czech Republic and Poland due to cyclones, which couldn't break through the anticyclone in eastern Europe. Today it's the same situation like in 2010 but worser for Western Europe. -- Brateevsky ( talk to me) 10:57, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Nobody writes about this in press, but I'll say just the fact.&
Agree, just because one or two people say it's "caused by climate change", that doesn't mean it's been proved.See also WP:NOTTRUTH. -- LordPeterII ( talk) 12:03, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
I still think blaming this on Climate Change is premature. If you know anything about river management you know there are a lot of things at play, it's not just about the amount of rain that falls. If Climate Change is to blame, why was the St Mary Magdalene Flood of 1342 so much bigger than this one? Floods are characterised as 1 in [insert time period here] events. This may have been a 1 in 1000 year flood - why involve CLimate Change with next to no consideration of anything else - like building on flood plains. Weirs, and waterway management. Rivers don't like to be held back - all rivers flood. And humans like living on flood plains because they are flat and fertile. I'm suspicious when people immediately blame Climate Change for a weather event - and rest assured, a lot of insurers will be looking very closely at what caused this and how they will weight their future insurance premiums. Which is probably why I see a lot ofuninformed comments on here, not the real experts: the hydrologists and meteorologists. 27.33.200.168 ( talk) 12:37, 19 July 2021 (UTC)An old anonymous hack who has been watching the climate change debate for 30 years now and has a doctorate and some peer reviewed publications.
"An image of the Meuse and Roer rivers on July 16 (left) and on July 18 (right) as captured by the Operational Land Imager (OLI) on Landsat 8 shows flooding along the rivers" How is that probing the relationship between the European floods 2021 event and the climate change?. Lavidavi00 ( talk) 08:06, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Arguments cited in sources like "everything is connected" and "wave resonance" are at least subject of discussionis that we have no choice but to follow what the sources say. If you think that these sources misrepresent reality or that we give excessive WP:WEIGHT to them, you have to either (i) provide other, contradictory sources that make this point or (ii) prove that most other sources do not make these points. The problem with the 2002 source is that it does not directly address the 2021 floods like the current sources do: I accept that we can reasonably conclude from it that floods are a regular occurence, but unfortunately we cannot combine several sources of information to reach a conclusion that is not explicitly mentioned in the sources, so it would be better if you could provide sources that address the 2021 explicitly. In any event, I recognize that the image may give excessive WP:WEIGHT to the § Climate change section. Before taking action, however, I would just like to see what other editors think about that. JBchrch talk 10:58, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
How servere is the damage in Northern-Italy. The article references the country in the intro. But further down there is no further information about the situation. Secondly the infobox mentions 1 fatality but when I translate the article an uprooted tree hit a Indian citizen. So this was nog necessarily caused by water damage. Are there any other sources that can back this up. Melvinvk ( talk) 17:25, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Please, you should include these countries, could as well include Cerdeña, Corsica, Balearic Islands (one by one) and also the Canary Islands, don't forget they are in Europe as well. Sections explaining how many people had to use the umbrella, how many people was hit by how many rain drops, etc. Numbers, numbers always impress. Good night, I'll be back in the morning to see how is that going. I am surprised this entry doesn't specify deaths by region, how many people had to leave the tent o every camping, how many are "disappeared because mobile phone has no signal, etc. April_2015_Nepal_earthquake Francisco Fernandez Rodriguez ( talk) 02:32, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Not only I can confirm that for a short while, those numbers were raised/mentioned in the media because of broken mobile/telephone-infrastructure in a certain area. (Source: in german: by the spiegel (which is acknowledged by the english wikipedia). If you would like to the check the source for yourself you can do that with translation-addons. I am going to delete the mentioning of the missing persons and already have adressed the misinformation regarding the Mainpage In the news-headline. ---- LennBr ( talk) 14:10, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi. The infobox/lead mention France, but that's about it. Has there been any flooding as such in France? Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 17:33, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Flooding hit Salzburg, Austria today. More news will be forthcoming. It should soon be included in the map and article. 142.117.34.192 ( talk) 20:34, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Here are a few videos that could be migrated to commons to illustrate the article:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3-d9WrSqgk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCiwV3uxmXE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv7jli8Dq5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85lpY3Dk-6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcdPb_4vPl8
Victor Grigas ( talk) 23:07, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Here are some more photos and some videos too: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pixelshowmeine/ Victor Grigas ( talk) 23:51, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Flash Floods in Nowy Sącz https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3biKtRcJORA Niterurea ( talk) 19:44, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi. In order not to add something controversial, I wish to read opinions on whether Greta Thunberg's comments are to be included in the climate change section or not. She's an activist but not a scientist. Thanks. CoryGlee ( talk) 01:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Could you add some context about which comments you are referring to? Maybe even sources for them? 80.120.170.101 ( talk) 11:18, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
I see the basic Europe map in the infobox has now gone. Was there any discussion around this? I guess the new "Areas affected, EU Emergency Response Coordination Centre (ERCC)" map may be too big/ too detailed to go in the box. Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 15:10, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
This is about the "green image" in section "Connection to global climate change". The Landsat8 satellite photos now show the rivers Maas (from bottom) and Rhine (from top right). The source NASA website only shows a cutout at Roermond, where the Roer flows into the Maas. So either the title should be adjusted to Maas and Rhine, or the image should be cropped to show the ¿intended? image. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmarade ( talk • contribs)
After I was reverted by an IP for adding the map back, I hope to achieve consensus on the image in the infobox. Should it be:
I personally prefer the map, however, I am interested in others' opinions on this. — Berrely • Talk∕ Contribs 08:58, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
give readers visual confirmation that they've arrived at the right page. Pic A does not serve this function: it could be related to any article about a European political event or project. Pic B is alright, but meteorological images of that nature are not really useful for the general public, including me (what does red mean? heat? rain? floods?). Pic C shows a distinctly European city underwater: it's as illustrative as it gets, and you know you are at the right place. JBchrch talk 18:58, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
A quick websearch for "Turkey flooding" reveals a plethora of articles and footage dating from the 22nd and 23rd. If these can be shown to connect to the weather pattern's effects in Romania I think it's worth including, although if it's coincidental then perhaps some kind of compromise can be reached to prevent this article from getting too broad in scope. 90.195.37.193 ( talk) 20:09, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
This new report says that now 41 people died in Belgium [1], could someone modify the article for me ? I want to but I don't understand very developed articles code so I fear I might break something. Maxime12346 ( talk) 23:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
References
In the first box of the article, Turkey has been included with at least 77 deaths which is a significant number. But in the Impact section, we don't see Turkey. Please include it. Thanks. Aminabzz ( talk) 15:09, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Ibebuchi CC (2022) Patterns of atmospheric circulation in Western Europe linked to heavy rainfall in Germany: preliminary analysis into the 2021 heavy rainfall episode. Theor Appl Climatol. 148:269–283. https://doi.org/10.1007/s00704-022-03945-5 87.190.41.106 ( talk) 06:27, 20 August 2022 (UTC)