This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1976 Lady Wigram Trophy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page has been copied from OldRacingCars.com without the permission of the copyright holder. The other links (to New Zealand Motorsport Archive and Canterbury Car Club) are entirely spurious as no information has been taken from those pages; it has all come from the OldRacingCars.com page. I have no objection to ORC being used as a source but copying an entire page in this way is not adding any value; it is just taking the micky. It cannot be defended as a reinterpretation of a set of facts as no reinterpretation has taken place and there is information on the ORC page that cannot be said to simply "facts" that can't be copyrighted. I would like this page to be removed. Allen Brown ( talk) 16:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
'Stifle' has removed the COPYVIO from this page without adding anything to the discussion page to explain his reasoning. In the absence of that evidence, I have undone his change Allen Brown ( talk) 12:43, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
To remind 'Stifle' and others on the exact rules, here is an extract (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FAQ/Copyright):
So even if my website could be compared to a telephone directory - and I strongly maintain that it cannot - the lack of any reoganisation, restatement, creativity or multiple sources negates this as a reason. Allen Brown ( talk) 15:05, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
If I may enter into this discussion, for as an contributor to the German Wikipedia I just found one of my favourite source pages blocked for public access with a remark to copyright issues on the English Wikipedia. After some recherche I finally landed on this page and reading through all the discussion I have to say that to me this is a very sad story, in which at the moment I can only see loosers.
Having done some research in the depths of certain niches of motorsport history, while I am with some of the opinions here, that facts can not be "owned", I can also feel with Allen Brown, that it needs a lot of work and maybe even some creativity to get detailed informations on such exotic events like this, and I can also feel with him, that it is very disappointing, if somebody simply comes around and just takes this content to transfer it to another place without any reflection or own contribution. But besides this more emotional aspect I think we should concentrate not so much on the 'property' issue of the data, but rather on some other aspects, why I am pleading to delete or at least substantially change the article. First of all, from what I am used from the German Wikipedia, to me it is not an "article" at all. It lacks basic requirements, for example in its text it is not even mentioned, that it is about a motorrace or on which track it took place. As a reader you have to bring with you all this background information already even to understand what it is all about. IMO this alone would be sufficient for a request for deletion, but perhaps the attitudes are a little different in the English Wikipedia.
So beyond that I have to question also, whether the subject does indeed meet the relevance criteria. Should Wikipedia really cover motorsport events of any level only because the availability of some data? The Lady Wigram Trophy and even more the Rhodesian GP, on which I read a similar discussion, were of very local character. Just read thorugh the list of participants to notice there is hardly a name known in the "outside world". So if this would be the standard level of relevance, then the Wikipedia would have to cover virtually any single race in the world, from each Swedish ice car race to every starter in the Baja California of 1969. To my understanding, as an encyclopaedia the Wikipedia can not be intended to cover everything and to replace all other publications. Quite the contrary, while Wikipedia forbids ist contributors to do primary research themselves that is actually what institutions like oldracingcars.com are specialized on. So they must be left enough space for existance and there must be found a reasonable division of areas of responsibility. Otherwise it will lead to further situations like the current one. Or to express it in a different way, what would be the consequence if the "article" would remain in its current state? As on oldracingcars.com research would go on the content would further develop and gradually change. At the same time, with no own reserach allowed, somebody on Wikipedia would have permanently to watch and transfer all the changes into the article, otherwise at least the more detailed bits of data would become more and more outdated. And also, with the contents of Wikipedia quite high in the search engines, this outdated contend would be spread quickly into the world, while at the same time fewer people would find the place where the more up-to-date information can be found. There are many examples of incidents like this, the contents of motorsport pages in the world are full of errors that have been spread by "blind" copying, sometimes to a degree, that the number of occurrence of wrong statements is taken as an indication that it must be correct by some Wikipedians. Probably many of the contributors here know what I am talking about.
Now to prevent this, I think it is an intelligent solution and probably also the intention in Wikipedia drawing itself a line of relevance, thus leaving enough space for both sides even to benefit from each other. If you may still argue, that the subject of the article itself meets the relevance critera - which I still strongly question - at least this can not lead down to details model designations and mention of non-participants, the correctness of which can not be verified. Many of this may be even down on interpretation by the publishers of the original sources - from my own experience you have to start with this in your research - and as indication hat I am probably right on this you can take the many question marks in the content of the mentioned article on the 1976 Rhodesian Grand Prix. But what information can the uninformed reader get from this? It does not indicate, that a certain driver did actually take part in the race, maybe he did, but maybe he had only placed an entry, the table does not give any useful information about that, it only brings the name in a vague connection with the event.
So summing up, because of all this I see a strong condition to give that article a rightful existence would be to add at least the basic prerequisties of structure and content (for example a meaningful passage of explanatory text on the subject) and the elimination of the aformentioned irrelevant details. If nobody is regarding it valuable enough to invest in this work I plead for its elimination. -- Uechtel ( talk) 21:42, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
I am most grateful to Physchim62 and Uechtel for those thought-provoking contributions. Please excuse me not replying immediately as I am up to my ears in my "day job" but I'll be back to you as soon as I can. Physchim62's question about 'ownership' of results and Uechtel's proposal of a 'line of relevance' are very interesting and deserve a considered response. Allen Brown ( talk) 11:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on 1976 Lady Wigram Trophy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:00, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1976 Lady Wigram Trophy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page has been copied from OldRacingCars.com without the permission of the copyright holder. The other links (to New Zealand Motorsport Archive and Canterbury Car Club) are entirely spurious as no information has been taken from those pages; it has all come from the OldRacingCars.com page. I have no objection to ORC being used as a source but copying an entire page in this way is not adding any value; it is just taking the micky. It cannot be defended as a reinterpretation of a set of facts as no reinterpretation has taken place and there is information on the ORC page that cannot be said to simply "facts" that can't be copyrighted. I would like this page to be removed. Allen Brown ( talk) 16:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
'Stifle' has removed the COPYVIO from this page without adding anything to the discussion page to explain his reasoning. In the absence of that evidence, I have undone his change Allen Brown ( talk) 12:43, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
To remind 'Stifle' and others on the exact rules, here is an extract (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FAQ/Copyright):
So even if my website could be compared to a telephone directory - and I strongly maintain that it cannot - the lack of any reoganisation, restatement, creativity or multiple sources negates this as a reason. Allen Brown ( talk) 15:05, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
If I may enter into this discussion, for as an contributor to the German Wikipedia I just found one of my favourite source pages blocked for public access with a remark to copyright issues on the English Wikipedia. After some recherche I finally landed on this page and reading through all the discussion I have to say that to me this is a very sad story, in which at the moment I can only see loosers.
Having done some research in the depths of certain niches of motorsport history, while I am with some of the opinions here, that facts can not be "owned", I can also feel with Allen Brown, that it needs a lot of work and maybe even some creativity to get detailed informations on such exotic events like this, and I can also feel with him, that it is very disappointing, if somebody simply comes around and just takes this content to transfer it to another place without any reflection or own contribution. But besides this more emotional aspect I think we should concentrate not so much on the 'property' issue of the data, but rather on some other aspects, why I am pleading to delete or at least substantially change the article. First of all, from what I am used from the German Wikipedia, to me it is not an "article" at all. It lacks basic requirements, for example in its text it is not even mentioned, that it is about a motorrace or on which track it took place. As a reader you have to bring with you all this background information already even to understand what it is all about. IMO this alone would be sufficient for a request for deletion, but perhaps the attitudes are a little different in the English Wikipedia.
So beyond that I have to question also, whether the subject does indeed meet the relevance criteria. Should Wikipedia really cover motorsport events of any level only because the availability of some data? The Lady Wigram Trophy and even more the Rhodesian GP, on which I read a similar discussion, were of very local character. Just read thorugh the list of participants to notice there is hardly a name known in the "outside world". So if this would be the standard level of relevance, then the Wikipedia would have to cover virtually any single race in the world, from each Swedish ice car race to every starter in the Baja California of 1969. To my understanding, as an encyclopaedia the Wikipedia can not be intended to cover everything and to replace all other publications. Quite the contrary, while Wikipedia forbids ist contributors to do primary research themselves that is actually what institutions like oldracingcars.com are specialized on. So they must be left enough space for existance and there must be found a reasonable division of areas of responsibility. Otherwise it will lead to further situations like the current one. Or to express it in a different way, what would be the consequence if the "article" would remain in its current state? As on oldracingcars.com research would go on the content would further develop and gradually change. At the same time, with no own reserach allowed, somebody on Wikipedia would have permanently to watch and transfer all the changes into the article, otherwise at least the more detailed bits of data would become more and more outdated. And also, with the contents of Wikipedia quite high in the search engines, this outdated contend would be spread quickly into the world, while at the same time fewer people would find the place where the more up-to-date information can be found. There are many examples of incidents like this, the contents of motorsport pages in the world are full of errors that have been spread by "blind" copying, sometimes to a degree, that the number of occurrence of wrong statements is taken as an indication that it must be correct by some Wikipedians. Probably many of the contributors here know what I am talking about.
Now to prevent this, I think it is an intelligent solution and probably also the intention in Wikipedia drawing itself a line of relevance, thus leaving enough space for both sides even to benefit from each other. If you may still argue, that the subject of the article itself meets the relevance critera - which I still strongly question - at least this can not lead down to details model designations and mention of non-participants, the correctness of which can not be verified. Many of this may be even down on interpretation by the publishers of the original sources - from my own experience you have to start with this in your research - and as indication hat I am probably right on this you can take the many question marks in the content of the mentioned article on the 1976 Rhodesian Grand Prix. But what information can the uninformed reader get from this? It does not indicate, that a certain driver did actually take part in the race, maybe he did, but maybe he had only placed an entry, the table does not give any useful information about that, it only brings the name in a vague connection with the event.
So summing up, because of all this I see a strong condition to give that article a rightful existence would be to add at least the basic prerequisties of structure and content (for example a meaningful passage of explanatory text on the subject) and the elimination of the aformentioned irrelevant details. If nobody is regarding it valuable enough to invest in this work I plead for its elimination. -- Uechtel ( talk) 21:42, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
I am most grateful to Physchim62 and Uechtel for those thought-provoking contributions. Please excuse me not replying immediately as I am up to my ears in my "day job" but I'll be back to you as soon as I can. Physchim62's question about 'ownership' of results and Uechtel's proposal of a 'line of relevance' are very interesting and deserve a considered response. Allen Brown ( talk) 11:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on 1976 Lady Wigram Trophy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:00, 15 June 2017 (UTC)