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What is being disputed exactly here? ← Humus sapiens← Talk 19:12, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The fatality listing under the header is messy, does anyone have any ideas on how to clean it up? Red1 08:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
We need a reference for " In the years predating 1920, these processions were marked by intimidation of Christian communities on their way."
fix it or it will be deleted.
I've added the fact tag (citation needed) to the non-specific reference to a british report. If the report described is the Haycraft Commission report, then the description in this article seems to severely misrepresent that report. See a better description here:L http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots#The_Investigative_Commission_report
I will return to see if there are any comments to this, and if not I'll make appropriate changes. Gni 19:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply, Zero. It looks as though much of the Answers.com summary comes from the 1945 Survey of Palestine. Here's what pg. 17 of the reprinted version says:
I'm sure you agree, then, that the summary which was part of this article didn't accurately convey the report? I've updated the article accordingly. Gni 19:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely. The article clearly and blatantly misrepresents the findings contained within the Palin Report itself. The motive of the author of this section is hard to gauge given this one instance of atrocious editorializing. But clearly to anyone doing even a cursory scan of the Palin Report's official findings, bias leaning strongly toward placing blame for the riot on the Arab side soon becomes evident. Indeed that bias is so pronounced one must realistically entertain the question of whether the author deliberately mischaracterized the Report, for whatever purpose. And, as a result of that, whether wiki moderators should seriously be considering a need to more closely scrutinize that authors edits. Mycos 11:36, 20 June 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mycos ( talk • contribs)
Just because it was sparked by nationalistic factors doesn't preclude it from taking on antisemitic colours like "the Jews are our dogs!" The Iraqi Farhud as well as other such events in the region mixed the two freely. Tewfik Talk 16:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, a better analogy would be if a Jewish mob repeatedly made religious anti-Muslim statements and then, while beating and killing Muslims, specifically targeted mosques and tore up Qurans, then burning the building. That would qualify for something like "Category:Anti-Islam", even if the Jews were really just protesting an unjust government law. Tewfik Talk 05:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The most important issue in my mind is that we don't edit without sources. If a reputable source says that there is most probably a cause-effect relationship between Palestinian anti-Semitism and the riot then fair enough otherwise we are talking about original research. -- Ian Pitchford 08:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The King-Crane Commission report is one of the best sources:
For "a national home for the Jewish people" is not equivalent to making Palestine into a Jewish State; nor can the erection of such a Jewish State be accomplished without the gravest trespass upon the "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conference with Jewish representatives, that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase.
In his address of July 4, 1918, President Wilson laid down the following principle as one of the four great "ends for which the associated peoples of the world were fighting"; "The settlement of every question, whether of territory, of sovereignty, of economic arrangement, or of political relationship upon the basis of the free acceptance of that settlement by the people immediately concerned and not upon the basis of the material interest or advantage of any other nation or people which may desire a different settlement for the sake of its own exterior influence or mastery." If that principle is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine-nearly nine tenths of the whole-are emphatically against the entire Zionist program. The tables show that there was no one thing upon which the population of Palestine were more agreed than upon this. To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrender the land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted, and of the people's rights, though it kept within the forms of law
It is to be noted also that the feeling against the Zionist program is not confined to Palestine, but shared very generally by the people throughout Syria as our conferences clearly showed. More than 72 per cent-1,350 in all-of all the petitions in the whole of Syria were directed against the Zionist program. Only two requests-those for a united Syria and for independence-had a larger support. This general feeling was only voiced by the "General Syrian Congress," in the seventh, eighth and tenth resolutions of the statement. (Already quoted in the report.)
The Peace Conference should not shut its eyes to the fact that the anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria is intense and not lightly to be flouted. No British officer, consulted by the Commissioners, believed that the Zionist program could be carried out except by force of arms. The officers generally thought that a force of not less than 50,000 soldiers would be required even to initiate the program. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of the injustice of the Zionist program, on the part of the non-Jewish populations of Palestine and Syria. Decisions, requiring armies to carry out, are sometimes necessary, but they are surely not gratuitously to be taken in the interests of a serious injustice. For the initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a "right" to Palestine, based on an occupation of 2,000 years ago, can hardly be seriously considered.
-- Ian Pitchford 09:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The history of the shaping of the problems in the middle east is known by far too few. The more people know about the history of the zionist movement the better they are able to make informed decisions regarding their choice of elected officials who decision impact U.S. foreign policy in that region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.202.39 ( talk) 14:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I see this has been rated "high". It seems too much for me... This is just one point of the context of the Palestinian fight againt Zionism. Nothing special here. It could have not arise and nothing would have changed.
What do you think ?
Alithien 08:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Segev is not a historian; he is a journalist. As a source for facts, his book may be marginally acceptable, though only as long as no better source describing the events in such details has been found. But his opinions are completely irrelevant, especially such opinionated claims as "Meinertzhagen sounds like something of a lunatic". Beit Or 19:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
After comparing this article to WP:WIAGA and the good article criteria, I am placing it on hold for the following reasons:
Other than that the article appears to be GA quality. Make that fix, and I will promote the article and list it. Good luck. If you have any questions, please drop a note on my talk page. -- Jayron32| talk| contribs 04:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I removed it, but "politically charged" referred to the generic nature of the Nebi Musa holiday, which was always characterised as a time for a show of force to prevent Christian pilgrims from threatening Muslim sovereignty. I generally tried to change the tone, but I'm not sure what facts could be added. Large parts of the sections deal with details that were not very relevant to a basic narrative (Jewish volunteers, Zionist warnings, Meinhartzhagen's allegations, details of the violence, specifics of British action, various punishments, halt of immigration etc.). Let me know, Tewfik Talk 18:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
In the aftermath section it says that the Haganah were formed as a result of the riots but I believe that the Haganah actually formed just before the outbreak of the riots rather than immediatley after.
I think it's also worth mentioning that Herbert Samuel lifted the sentences of Haganah members arrested after the riots like Jabotinsky and re-opened Palestine to Jewish immigration after the British O.E.T.A. was replaced by the civil administration and he was made High Commissioner. And also that in July a general amnesty was declared that allowed the release of all the Arabs arrested ater the riots. Incuding Aminal-Huseini being able to return to Palestine.
And lastly that Britain restated after the San Remo conference that the Balfour Declaration was still a part of British policy. Matthew C. Bell 18:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello Alithien, Sorry to see that the wikistress has gotten to you, but here is my belated reply. Segev is one of the better writers among his peers, but I've caught a number of errors in his work, and so I wouldn't discount that possibility. You might want to check Gelber's Jewish Transjordanian relations though, as he deals with this period in some detail and may have mentioned something interesting. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 01:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
==Jabotinsky started Haganah in Russia== Altalena5768 ( talk) 18:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
These sentences, currently in the introductory summary, seem more appropriate to the Aftermath section:
Zulu Kane ( talk) 18:31, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
To whom it may concern. Wikiproject:Good Articles in currently in the middle of its sweeps period, where we go over articles that have been passed as good articles and review them to ensure that they still meet the standard. In this case, I notice that this page is protected over disputes, though I can't seem to figure out what they are. If there were legitimate concerns, then the article would have to be delisted. If they have been resolved, however, I can unprotect the page. Please let me know what the case is. Cheers, CP 22:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I question the quality of this article based on the Good article criteria. For that reason, I have listed the article at Good article reassessment. Issues needing to be address are listed there. While I don't take the strong stance of PalestineRemembered, I do feel that there are neutrality issues here and a lot of key statements remain uncited. In this case, it's best to get more opinions. Cheers, CP 02:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
This article was nominated for good article reassessment to determine whether or not it met the good article criteria and so can be listed as a good article. The article was delisted. Please see the archived discussion for further information. Geometry guy 09:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
In his biography of the Mufti, Philip Mattar writes (Page 149) : "The four cases of political violence in 1920, 1921, 1929, and 1933 were not revolts, (...) They were localized spontaneous riots that resulted in no sustained (...)"
I get this from google.books but cannot get more. Would someone have his book ? (maybe p.17 ?) Could you give me more information about what he writes exactly ? I also read that Mattar writes that the Mufti was not accused of any involvment by Palin Commission. This should be in that book. Could someone check ? Thank you
Ceedjee (
talk) 21:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Technically Tel Hai was not part of Palestine at the time, but ceded to the French a year earlier (frm memory), why is it mentioned as part of the Palestinian riots? Nishidani ( talk) 16:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
There is a considerable literature on the political information available to Arab notables and newspapers on the implications of the Zionist project for Arabs in the area, not to speak of many other things. I find all of these pages on riots POV because a few days of rioting 9 deaths, many injured, yes, is given as a riot over the whole of the year, throughout all of Palestine. The whole framing of these events, a few among many (lacking pages) tends to create the impression through links that someone these scabby Arabs hated Jews, and were easily incited. No details are given of speeches, no references are made to comments in the Hebrew and Englsh press preceding the riots. It is all Muslim (not Christian) incitement to cut Jewish throats. Repellent as these acts are, they are being interpreted in Wiki as Zionists used them at the time, i.e. on a par with the 1000 pogroms, killing on an average 200 Jews at a time, in the Ukraine, not to speak of elsewhere. If you compare the 60,000 killed by Petliura's thugs in areas many immigrants hailed from, to the several small riots in Palestine over 1919-1929, then one cannot but be struck by how, relatively, placid the Palestinian response was to an imperial declaration that they would lose their homeland. Remember, the Arabs in early 1920 greeted the decisions taken by European powers as signally a great 'nakba of 1920', a word we tend to associate only with 1948. One could open a page on 'the great nakba of 1920' of course, but . . .
In Europe territorial disputes and ethnic enmities led to a huge toll of life. In Palestine, at least until 36-9, the violence was actually quite low, given the provocation. One would never gather this from Wiki, which, as I said, uses the Zionist press approach of the age, interpreting infrequent outbreaks of violence against what was a colonial (Herzl's word) expropriation as though it were fueled by Muslim fanaticism. As to Tel Hai, it is in technically the Galilee, but it was under French jurisdiction, and not part of the Palestine occupied by the British. It is, I disagree, important, because much was made of it in the Zionist press, and the Galilee was one of the areas were dispossession of tenants through land-sales and occupancy caused great poverty and disaffection among the deracinated fellahin who then drifted into the cities, Haifa and Jerusalem and elsewhere. Nishidani ( talk) 17:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I endorse it. The earlier title gave a misleading impression of some year long rioting. These small incidents should not be presented as some chronic uprising spread out all over Palestine intermittently for that year. Nishidani ( talk) 08:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
It says that "The annual Nabi Musa spring festival was instituted by the Ottoman Turks to ensure a Muslim presence in Jerusalem during the influx of Christian pilgrims celebrating the Easter holiday." this was already fixed during the Mamluk period. צידקי ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:32, 6 March 2012 (UTC).
After recent modifications, this event is presented as an inflammatory explosion of antisemitism whereas historians (from all sides) now introduce this in the context of the struggle between Jewish nationalism (zionism) and the birthing Palestinian nationalism. Care should be taken to comply with what historians write and take distance with propaganda.
The title was changed without discussion whereas it was more than 2 years in that situation (cfr discussion here above). 91.180.146.182 ( talk) 07:43, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Dates are important for the language one uses, which however should stick to sources that specifically deal with the events. The description of the Arabs of Palestine as Palestinians occurs, for example, in the official British report (The Palin Report 1920) on the events, p.41 (from memory). In other official texts of that period, the British anthropologists deny that the Palestinians were in fact ethnically Arabs. Nishidani ( talk) 06:32, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
I notice the article was protected with the new version of "Palestinian" rather than "Arab". I will be restoring it to the longstanding STATUSQUO version once the protection is over.
If I'm not mistaken, it's very uncommon for historians to frame these events in terms of Palestinians vs Jews rather than Arabs vs Jews.
No More Mr Nice Guy (
talk) 23:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken, it's very uncommon for historians to frame these events in terms of Palestinians vs Jews rather than Arabs vs Jews.
I removed this: "Al-Husayni demanded that the Zionist Commission be disbanded, its leaders expelled and Jabotinsky brigades be disbanded. The demand was ignored by the British military administration. ARABS TAKE ACTION AGAINST ZIONISTS; Demand Commission Be Suppressed and Threaten Massacre--Allenby Takes a Hand" Reason: The source does not support this text. As well as not mentioning al-Husayni at all, the newspaper story is just a report of what the Zionist commission claimed to have been "reliably informed" about. It source says so explicitly and does not claim to have checked any of it. There is almost no evidentiary value here, certainly nowhere near enough to satisfy WP:RS. We must not report unverified claims of one side of a dispute as facts. Any significant true facts here will be covered by the works of historians. Zero talk 23:06, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Does anybody involved in any of the above WikiProjects on this Talk page (or anybody just viewing this Talk page) have any plans for translating the French Wikipedia version of this article, which is listed as an FA-class article on FR:WP?
If not, I'm going to take a crack at doing the translation. -- Buspirtraz ( talk) 08:46, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
For one thing, Shmuel Katz is totally unacceptable as a source, and Meinertzhagen should appear only for the part he personally played and not for his testimony which is unreliable. Zero talk 10:38, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
I have another way to try to deal w/FR:WP version of the article: Do you think we can try to do a rough translation (either w/Google Translate or something/someone else) but not edit the article itself for now, instead posting the translation in the Talk page (in a New Section) w/references from FR:WP, ask for a translation cleanup (since I can merely read some French, and even that's very little French I can read), and then sift through the cleaned-up translation of the article in the Talk page (not making any edits to the EN:WP article itself) until we can get a fully-sourced, fully-detailed version that is not too heavily pro-Zionist, trying our best to keep both sides happy but being honest with them at the same time, then post it? (You did mention that the FR:WP version also needs work.) I hope I managed to make that proposal right without repeating my offer. -- Buspirtraz ( talk) 20:25, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Les émeutes de Jérusalem de 1920 (encore appelées Émeutes de Nabi Moussa ou Pogrom de Jérusalem[1]) se produisirent entre les dimanche 4 et mercredi 7 avril 1920 dans la Vieille Ville de Jérusalem[2].
Lors de la célébration de la fête religieuse de Nabi Moussa, la foule arabe poussée à la violence par plusieurs leaders nationalistes s'attaqua à la population juive de la Vieille Ville. Les autorités militaires britanniques réagirent avec une certaine passivité. Les émeutes firent une dizaine de morts et près de 250 blessés[3].
Ces émeutes constituent la première manifestation majeure de violence entre les communautés arabe et juive de Palestine dans le contexte du conflit nationaliste qui les oppose[2]. Elles poussèrent les Juifs à développer leur propre organisation de défense : la Haganah[4].
Une controverse existe quant au rôle possible que plusieurs hauts militaires britanniques auraient joué dans l'organisation de ces émeutes dont le but était de soutenir le roi saoudien Fayçal à la veille de la conférence de San Remo qui devait débuter le 19 avril et où le sort de la région serait discuté.
There's no need for a machine translation. It takes a few minutes (here's the intro between ad breaks for There Will Be Blood
It is worth reading the actual words of the Palin commission regarding Meinertzhagen. You will see that they were not taken in by him for a moment. Also, I wonder where "the testimony is reported as well because it was important and had direct important consequences such as the end of the military rule in Palestine and the arrival of Samuel as High Commissioner" comes from; it seems a great exaggeration. Zero talk 22:41, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Compare these:
So who exactly found Meinertzhagen persuasive? Morris? Zero talk 10:31, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Efraim Karsh writes in Palestine Betrayed pg. 40: "...the Jerusalem pogrom of April 1920... was carried out not in the name of Palestine's independence but under the demand for its incorporation into Faisal's kingdom."
Perhaps this alternative perspective should be mentioned somewhere in the article? Unchartered ( talk) 05:51, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
The sentence that begins with "In its wake, sheikhs of 82 villages..." has several problems:
Would someone like to fix this or should I just remove that sentence? No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 06:32, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Segev writes: "In the wake of the 1920 riots in Jerusalem, the sheikhs of 82 villages around that city and Jaffa issued a statement protesting the demonstrations against the Jews. They claimed to represent 70 percent of the population and expressed allegiance to the British. Among other things, they stated that they did not see any danger in the Zionist settlement. The leaders of the Druze village Daliat al-Carmel, southeast of Haifa, stated that the settlement by Jews would bring great benefit to everyone in the land. Similar cables were dispatched in 1922 to the British colonial secretary, in opposition to the activity of the Arab delegation in London... According to Friedman, it looks like the delivery costs of the Arab telegrams in support of Zionism were covered by the World Zionist Organization. But the files of the Zionist Archive also chronicle many efforts by Zionist Arabists to obtain Arab declarations of support in return for actual bribes."
This is a fine mess of facts, but it still doesn't support the statement that "The sheikhs protesting the riots, and telegramming [sic] later [in 1922?] the British colonial secretary to express solidarity with the Zionist programme were sometimes bribed to state this position by the World Zionist Organisation. Their opinions were procured." One can at most write that there was an effort on behalf of the Zionists to secure Arab statements of support with bribe, based on this source. Whatever weight was placed on the Nebi Musa riots in the telegrams of 1922 (after the massacre in Jaffa) must have been very little. I don't think it belongs in the aftermath section of this article. Perhaps a better source can be found in the late prof. Friedman's book.
Further, Segev evidently has the petitions mixed up. Two petitions were sent by sheikhs of the Abu-Gosh clan, in which they claimed to represent "the majority, in numbers 70% and in land and property 90%," and demanded that the "administration and government be under the mandate of Great Britain," finally stating that there was "no danger to [their] interests, public or private, in Zionist immigration." The first petition was sent on March 23, carrying the names and seals of 142 mukhtars, and the second on March 28, carrying those of 121 mukhtars. This was prior to the violence in Jerusalem, not "in the wake of the riots" as Segev writes - and it is quite evident from the wording (70%, danger of Zionism) that he was referring to the same documents. Both petitions were addressed to the
Chief Administrator, with whom the notables also requested a private audience, and he transmitted them to Herbert Samuel who was still in London. They weren't cabled ("telegramed") to Bols, but rather delivered by mail - from Jerusalem (Damascus Gate) to Jerusalem (Administration headquarters). Whether the Chief Administrator of the Occupied Enemy Territory South had to rely on the World Zionist Organization for transmission fees to the High Commissioner in London - I cannot tell. An earlier petition of similar nature was sent by Muslim, Christian and Druze mukhtars of the Safed district on March 20.
On March 30 the Abu-Gosh sheikhs also sent a letter of protest against
clubs of "young and tendentious men" from "the cities" who claimed to speak on behalf of the rural majority. A classified assessment of the petitions found the names listed to be "persons of no importance whatsoever," as they were without "prestige or influence," and reported a "strong suspicion" of bribery by
Yehoshua Hankin.
Finally, following the violence in Jerusalem,
a statement was sent to general Bols by the Abu-Gosh sheikhs for transmission to the Prime Minister in London. In it they condemned the riots and proclaimed their support of Zionism, citing their petitions as evidence. Bols again
referred it to Samuel in London. This is, to my knowledge, the only telegram sent in the wake of the riots - i.e. April 1920. But primary sources yada yada --
ארינמל (
talk) 13:08, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
Two accounts of the riots were published by John Patterson in 1922. The second was by a "senior British officer," and could perhaps be quoted in the article, as it describes the initial outbreak near the Jaffa gate.-- ארינמל ( talk) 13:25, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
this 01:23, 6 March 2021 following this 20:35, 5 March 2021, which I reverted, breaks the IR rule. You are obliged to revert, and if 'trigger' in the lead worries you, argue for a change in the lead here. Nishidani ( talk) 13:51, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert.
The trigger which turned the procession into a riot is not known with certainty - some evidence exists suggesting Jewish provocation, but it is also possible,
though unreported,that Arab activities also contribute
Dispute exists concerning the cause that triggered the riots, with narratives that assign primary blame to the Arabs, the Jews, or culpability on both sides.
Not sure what's going on here, the lead is OK as far as I can see. What goes into the body is a different discussion, the body may be more detailed. Now the main point here is that you cannot simply write off what a reliable source says because one doesn't like it. The best solution, as usual, is contradictory sourcing ie alternative sources that say something different and add those in for balance. If there are none, then the best solution is to attribute what is being said to whoever is saying it rather than stating it in WP voice as a fact (that reference is not written properly, it needs a chapter/author addition being an edited work). Selfstudier ( talk) 18:55, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
The article says that " comparison was made between racist, anti -Semitic Eastern European pogroms , with the colonial adventure and ethnic exclusivity " that is Zionism. The word "colonial" is incorrectly applied to a native people coming back to its homeland, especially after the expulsion of Jews from Israel by Romans, Christians and Moslems( including Haj Amin Husseini, who planned to murder Mandate Palestinian Jews in a German - aided Holocaust). And with the long history of British, American, and other Christian Friends of Zion- Friends numbering some50 million today- "ethnic exclusive " is untrue,- and I demand that it and the term colonial be removed Docaryeh1989 ( talk) 12:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
“In its wake, sheikhs of 82 villages around the city and Jaffa, claiming to represent 70% of the population, issued a document protesting the demonstrations against the Jews. This condemnation may have been procured with bribes. [4]” —Edit: the source is no longer down, but I’m unable to view more than about 2 paragraphs in the article , and can’t find the claim that there may have been bribery involved in this condemnation. https://www.haaretz.com/2012-04-06/ty-article/when-zionism-was-an-arab-cause/0000017f-e219-df7c-a5ff-e27b00310000 EgyptianBlue22 ( talk) 15:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
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Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
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1920 Nebi Musa riots was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
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Current status: Delisted good article |
What is being disputed exactly here? ← Humus sapiens← Talk 19:12, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The fatality listing under the header is messy, does anyone have any ideas on how to clean it up? Red1 08:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
We need a reference for " In the years predating 1920, these processions were marked by intimidation of Christian communities on their way."
fix it or it will be deleted.
I've added the fact tag (citation needed) to the non-specific reference to a british report. If the report described is the Haycraft Commission report, then the description in this article seems to severely misrepresent that report. See a better description here:L http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots#The_Investigative_Commission_report
I will return to see if there are any comments to this, and if not I'll make appropriate changes. Gni 19:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply, Zero. It looks as though much of the Answers.com summary comes from the 1945 Survey of Palestine. Here's what pg. 17 of the reprinted version says:
I'm sure you agree, then, that the summary which was part of this article didn't accurately convey the report? I've updated the article accordingly. Gni 19:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely. The article clearly and blatantly misrepresents the findings contained within the Palin Report itself. The motive of the author of this section is hard to gauge given this one instance of atrocious editorializing. But clearly to anyone doing even a cursory scan of the Palin Report's official findings, bias leaning strongly toward placing blame for the riot on the Arab side soon becomes evident. Indeed that bias is so pronounced one must realistically entertain the question of whether the author deliberately mischaracterized the Report, for whatever purpose. And, as a result of that, whether wiki moderators should seriously be considering a need to more closely scrutinize that authors edits. Mycos 11:36, 20 June 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mycos ( talk • contribs)
Just because it was sparked by nationalistic factors doesn't preclude it from taking on antisemitic colours like "the Jews are our dogs!" The Iraqi Farhud as well as other such events in the region mixed the two freely. Tewfik Talk 16:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, a better analogy would be if a Jewish mob repeatedly made religious anti-Muslim statements and then, while beating and killing Muslims, specifically targeted mosques and tore up Qurans, then burning the building. That would qualify for something like "Category:Anti-Islam", even if the Jews were really just protesting an unjust government law. Tewfik Talk 05:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The most important issue in my mind is that we don't edit without sources. If a reputable source says that there is most probably a cause-effect relationship between Palestinian anti-Semitism and the riot then fair enough otherwise we are talking about original research. -- Ian Pitchford 08:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The King-Crane Commission report is one of the best sources:
For "a national home for the Jewish people" is not equivalent to making Palestine into a Jewish State; nor can the erection of such a Jewish State be accomplished without the gravest trespass upon the "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conference with Jewish representatives, that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase.
In his address of July 4, 1918, President Wilson laid down the following principle as one of the four great "ends for which the associated peoples of the world were fighting"; "The settlement of every question, whether of territory, of sovereignty, of economic arrangement, or of political relationship upon the basis of the free acceptance of that settlement by the people immediately concerned and not upon the basis of the material interest or advantage of any other nation or people which may desire a different settlement for the sake of its own exterior influence or mastery." If that principle is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine-nearly nine tenths of the whole-are emphatically against the entire Zionist program. The tables show that there was no one thing upon which the population of Palestine were more agreed than upon this. To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrender the land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted, and of the people's rights, though it kept within the forms of law
It is to be noted also that the feeling against the Zionist program is not confined to Palestine, but shared very generally by the people throughout Syria as our conferences clearly showed. More than 72 per cent-1,350 in all-of all the petitions in the whole of Syria were directed against the Zionist program. Only two requests-those for a united Syria and for independence-had a larger support. This general feeling was only voiced by the "General Syrian Congress," in the seventh, eighth and tenth resolutions of the statement. (Already quoted in the report.)
The Peace Conference should not shut its eyes to the fact that the anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria is intense and not lightly to be flouted. No British officer, consulted by the Commissioners, believed that the Zionist program could be carried out except by force of arms. The officers generally thought that a force of not less than 50,000 soldiers would be required even to initiate the program. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of the injustice of the Zionist program, on the part of the non-Jewish populations of Palestine and Syria. Decisions, requiring armies to carry out, are sometimes necessary, but they are surely not gratuitously to be taken in the interests of a serious injustice. For the initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a "right" to Palestine, based on an occupation of 2,000 years ago, can hardly be seriously considered.
-- Ian Pitchford 09:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The history of the shaping of the problems in the middle east is known by far too few. The more people know about the history of the zionist movement the better they are able to make informed decisions regarding their choice of elected officials who decision impact U.S. foreign policy in that region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.202.39 ( talk) 14:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I see this has been rated "high". It seems too much for me... This is just one point of the context of the Palestinian fight againt Zionism. Nothing special here. It could have not arise and nothing would have changed.
What do you think ?
Alithien 08:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Segev is not a historian; he is a journalist. As a source for facts, his book may be marginally acceptable, though only as long as no better source describing the events in such details has been found. But his opinions are completely irrelevant, especially such opinionated claims as "Meinertzhagen sounds like something of a lunatic". Beit Or 19:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
After comparing this article to WP:WIAGA and the good article criteria, I am placing it on hold for the following reasons:
Other than that the article appears to be GA quality. Make that fix, and I will promote the article and list it. Good luck. If you have any questions, please drop a note on my talk page. -- Jayron32| talk| contribs 04:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I removed it, but "politically charged" referred to the generic nature of the Nebi Musa holiday, which was always characterised as a time for a show of force to prevent Christian pilgrims from threatening Muslim sovereignty. I generally tried to change the tone, but I'm not sure what facts could be added. Large parts of the sections deal with details that were not very relevant to a basic narrative (Jewish volunteers, Zionist warnings, Meinhartzhagen's allegations, details of the violence, specifics of British action, various punishments, halt of immigration etc.). Let me know, Tewfik Talk 18:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
In the aftermath section it says that the Haganah were formed as a result of the riots but I believe that the Haganah actually formed just before the outbreak of the riots rather than immediatley after.
I think it's also worth mentioning that Herbert Samuel lifted the sentences of Haganah members arrested after the riots like Jabotinsky and re-opened Palestine to Jewish immigration after the British O.E.T.A. was replaced by the civil administration and he was made High Commissioner. And also that in July a general amnesty was declared that allowed the release of all the Arabs arrested ater the riots. Incuding Aminal-Huseini being able to return to Palestine.
And lastly that Britain restated after the San Remo conference that the Balfour Declaration was still a part of British policy. Matthew C. Bell 18:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello Alithien, Sorry to see that the wikistress has gotten to you, but here is my belated reply. Segev is one of the better writers among his peers, but I've caught a number of errors in his work, and so I wouldn't discount that possibility. You might want to check Gelber's Jewish Transjordanian relations though, as he deals with this period in some detail and may have mentioned something interesting. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 01:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
==Jabotinsky started Haganah in Russia== Altalena5768 ( talk) 18:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
These sentences, currently in the introductory summary, seem more appropriate to the Aftermath section:
Zulu Kane ( talk) 18:31, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
To whom it may concern. Wikiproject:Good Articles in currently in the middle of its sweeps period, where we go over articles that have been passed as good articles and review them to ensure that they still meet the standard. In this case, I notice that this page is protected over disputes, though I can't seem to figure out what they are. If there were legitimate concerns, then the article would have to be delisted. If they have been resolved, however, I can unprotect the page. Please let me know what the case is. Cheers, CP 22:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I question the quality of this article based on the Good article criteria. For that reason, I have listed the article at Good article reassessment. Issues needing to be address are listed there. While I don't take the strong stance of PalestineRemembered, I do feel that there are neutrality issues here and a lot of key statements remain uncited. In this case, it's best to get more opinions. Cheers, CP 02:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
This article was nominated for good article reassessment to determine whether or not it met the good article criteria and so can be listed as a good article. The article was delisted. Please see the archived discussion for further information. Geometry guy 09:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
In his biography of the Mufti, Philip Mattar writes (Page 149) : "The four cases of political violence in 1920, 1921, 1929, and 1933 were not revolts, (...) They were localized spontaneous riots that resulted in no sustained (...)"
I get this from google.books but cannot get more. Would someone have his book ? (maybe p.17 ?) Could you give me more information about what he writes exactly ? I also read that Mattar writes that the Mufti was not accused of any involvment by Palin Commission. This should be in that book. Could someone check ? Thank you
Ceedjee (
talk) 21:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Technically Tel Hai was not part of Palestine at the time, but ceded to the French a year earlier (frm memory), why is it mentioned as part of the Palestinian riots? Nishidani ( talk) 16:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
There is a considerable literature on the political information available to Arab notables and newspapers on the implications of the Zionist project for Arabs in the area, not to speak of many other things. I find all of these pages on riots POV because a few days of rioting 9 deaths, many injured, yes, is given as a riot over the whole of the year, throughout all of Palestine. The whole framing of these events, a few among many (lacking pages) tends to create the impression through links that someone these scabby Arabs hated Jews, and were easily incited. No details are given of speeches, no references are made to comments in the Hebrew and Englsh press preceding the riots. It is all Muslim (not Christian) incitement to cut Jewish throats. Repellent as these acts are, they are being interpreted in Wiki as Zionists used them at the time, i.e. on a par with the 1000 pogroms, killing on an average 200 Jews at a time, in the Ukraine, not to speak of elsewhere. If you compare the 60,000 killed by Petliura's thugs in areas many immigrants hailed from, to the several small riots in Palestine over 1919-1929, then one cannot but be struck by how, relatively, placid the Palestinian response was to an imperial declaration that they would lose their homeland. Remember, the Arabs in early 1920 greeted the decisions taken by European powers as signally a great 'nakba of 1920', a word we tend to associate only with 1948. One could open a page on 'the great nakba of 1920' of course, but . . .
In Europe territorial disputes and ethnic enmities led to a huge toll of life. In Palestine, at least until 36-9, the violence was actually quite low, given the provocation. One would never gather this from Wiki, which, as I said, uses the Zionist press approach of the age, interpreting infrequent outbreaks of violence against what was a colonial (Herzl's word) expropriation as though it were fueled by Muslim fanaticism. As to Tel Hai, it is in technically the Galilee, but it was under French jurisdiction, and not part of the Palestine occupied by the British. It is, I disagree, important, because much was made of it in the Zionist press, and the Galilee was one of the areas were dispossession of tenants through land-sales and occupancy caused great poverty and disaffection among the deracinated fellahin who then drifted into the cities, Haifa and Jerusalem and elsewhere. Nishidani ( talk) 17:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I endorse it. The earlier title gave a misleading impression of some year long rioting. These small incidents should not be presented as some chronic uprising spread out all over Palestine intermittently for that year. Nishidani ( talk) 08:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
It says that "The annual Nabi Musa spring festival was instituted by the Ottoman Turks to ensure a Muslim presence in Jerusalem during the influx of Christian pilgrims celebrating the Easter holiday." this was already fixed during the Mamluk period. צידקי ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:32, 6 March 2012 (UTC).
After recent modifications, this event is presented as an inflammatory explosion of antisemitism whereas historians (from all sides) now introduce this in the context of the struggle between Jewish nationalism (zionism) and the birthing Palestinian nationalism. Care should be taken to comply with what historians write and take distance with propaganda.
The title was changed without discussion whereas it was more than 2 years in that situation (cfr discussion here above). 91.180.146.182 ( talk) 07:43, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Dates are important for the language one uses, which however should stick to sources that specifically deal with the events. The description of the Arabs of Palestine as Palestinians occurs, for example, in the official British report (The Palin Report 1920) on the events, p.41 (from memory). In other official texts of that period, the British anthropologists deny that the Palestinians were in fact ethnically Arabs. Nishidani ( talk) 06:32, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
I notice the article was protected with the new version of "Palestinian" rather than "Arab". I will be restoring it to the longstanding STATUSQUO version once the protection is over.
If I'm not mistaken, it's very uncommon for historians to frame these events in terms of Palestinians vs Jews rather than Arabs vs Jews.
No More Mr Nice Guy (
talk) 23:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken, it's very uncommon for historians to frame these events in terms of Palestinians vs Jews rather than Arabs vs Jews.
I removed this: "Al-Husayni demanded that the Zionist Commission be disbanded, its leaders expelled and Jabotinsky brigades be disbanded. The demand was ignored by the British military administration. ARABS TAKE ACTION AGAINST ZIONISTS; Demand Commission Be Suppressed and Threaten Massacre--Allenby Takes a Hand" Reason: The source does not support this text. As well as not mentioning al-Husayni at all, the newspaper story is just a report of what the Zionist commission claimed to have been "reliably informed" about. It source says so explicitly and does not claim to have checked any of it. There is almost no evidentiary value here, certainly nowhere near enough to satisfy WP:RS. We must not report unverified claims of one side of a dispute as facts. Any significant true facts here will be covered by the works of historians. Zero talk 23:06, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Does anybody involved in any of the above WikiProjects on this Talk page (or anybody just viewing this Talk page) have any plans for translating the French Wikipedia version of this article, which is listed as an FA-class article on FR:WP?
If not, I'm going to take a crack at doing the translation. -- Buspirtraz ( talk) 08:46, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
For one thing, Shmuel Katz is totally unacceptable as a source, and Meinertzhagen should appear only for the part he personally played and not for his testimony which is unreliable. Zero talk 10:38, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
I have another way to try to deal w/FR:WP version of the article: Do you think we can try to do a rough translation (either w/Google Translate or something/someone else) but not edit the article itself for now, instead posting the translation in the Talk page (in a New Section) w/references from FR:WP, ask for a translation cleanup (since I can merely read some French, and even that's very little French I can read), and then sift through the cleaned-up translation of the article in the Talk page (not making any edits to the EN:WP article itself) until we can get a fully-sourced, fully-detailed version that is not too heavily pro-Zionist, trying our best to keep both sides happy but being honest with them at the same time, then post it? (You did mention that the FR:WP version also needs work.) I hope I managed to make that proposal right without repeating my offer. -- Buspirtraz ( talk) 20:25, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Les émeutes de Jérusalem de 1920 (encore appelées Émeutes de Nabi Moussa ou Pogrom de Jérusalem[1]) se produisirent entre les dimanche 4 et mercredi 7 avril 1920 dans la Vieille Ville de Jérusalem[2].
Lors de la célébration de la fête religieuse de Nabi Moussa, la foule arabe poussée à la violence par plusieurs leaders nationalistes s'attaqua à la population juive de la Vieille Ville. Les autorités militaires britanniques réagirent avec une certaine passivité. Les émeutes firent une dizaine de morts et près de 250 blessés[3].
Ces émeutes constituent la première manifestation majeure de violence entre les communautés arabe et juive de Palestine dans le contexte du conflit nationaliste qui les oppose[2]. Elles poussèrent les Juifs à développer leur propre organisation de défense : la Haganah[4].
Une controverse existe quant au rôle possible que plusieurs hauts militaires britanniques auraient joué dans l'organisation de ces émeutes dont le but était de soutenir le roi saoudien Fayçal à la veille de la conférence de San Remo qui devait débuter le 19 avril et où le sort de la région serait discuté.
There's no need for a machine translation. It takes a few minutes (here's the intro between ad breaks for There Will Be Blood
It is worth reading the actual words of the Palin commission regarding Meinertzhagen. You will see that they were not taken in by him for a moment. Also, I wonder where "the testimony is reported as well because it was important and had direct important consequences such as the end of the military rule in Palestine and the arrival of Samuel as High Commissioner" comes from; it seems a great exaggeration. Zero talk 22:41, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Compare these:
So who exactly found Meinertzhagen persuasive? Morris? Zero talk 10:31, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Efraim Karsh writes in Palestine Betrayed pg. 40: "...the Jerusalem pogrom of April 1920... was carried out not in the name of Palestine's independence but under the demand for its incorporation into Faisal's kingdom."
Perhaps this alternative perspective should be mentioned somewhere in the article? Unchartered ( talk) 05:51, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
The sentence that begins with "In its wake, sheikhs of 82 villages..." has several problems:
Would someone like to fix this or should I just remove that sentence? No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 06:32, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Segev writes: "In the wake of the 1920 riots in Jerusalem, the sheikhs of 82 villages around that city and Jaffa issued a statement protesting the demonstrations against the Jews. They claimed to represent 70 percent of the population and expressed allegiance to the British. Among other things, they stated that they did not see any danger in the Zionist settlement. The leaders of the Druze village Daliat al-Carmel, southeast of Haifa, stated that the settlement by Jews would bring great benefit to everyone in the land. Similar cables were dispatched in 1922 to the British colonial secretary, in opposition to the activity of the Arab delegation in London... According to Friedman, it looks like the delivery costs of the Arab telegrams in support of Zionism were covered by the World Zionist Organization. But the files of the Zionist Archive also chronicle many efforts by Zionist Arabists to obtain Arab declarations of support in return for actual bribes."
This is a fine mess of facts, but it still doesn't support the statement that "The sheikhs protesting the riots, and telegramming [sic] later [in 1922?] the British colonial secretary to express solidarity with the Zionist programme were sometimes bribed to state this position by the World Zionist Organisation. Their opinions were procured." One can at most write that there was an effort on behalf of the Zionists to secure Arab statements of support with bribe, based on this source. Whatever weight was placed on the Nebi Musa riots in the telegrams of 1922 (after the massacre in Jaffa) must have been very little. I don't think it belongs in the aftermath section of this article. Perhaps a better source can be found in the late prof. Friedman's book.
Further, Segev evidently has the petitions mixed up. Two petitions were sent by sheikhs of the Abu-Gosh clan, in which they claimed to represent "the majority, in numbers 70% and in land and property 90%," and demanded that the "administration and government be under the mandate of Great Britain," finally stating that there was "no danger to [their] interests, public or private, in Zionist immigration." The first petition was sent on March 23, carrying the names and seals of 142 mukhtars, and the second on March 28, carrying those of 121 mukhtars. This was prior to the violence in Jerusalem, not "in the wake of the riots" as Segev writes - and it is quite evident from the wording (70%, danger of Zionism) that he was referring to the same documents. Both petitions were addressed to the
Chief Administrator, with whom the notables also requested a private audience, and he transmitted them to Herbert Samuel who was still in London. They weren't cabled ("telegramed") to Bols, but rather delivered by mail - from Jerusalem (Damascus Gate) to Jerusalem (Administration headquarters). Whether the Chief Administrator of the Occupied Enemy Territory South had to rely on the World Zionist Organization for transmission fees to the High Commissioner in London - I cannot tell. An earlier petition of similar nature was sent by Muslim, Christian and Druze mukhtars of the Safed district on March 20.
On March 30 the Abu-Gosh sheikhs also sent a letter of protest against
clubs of "young and tendentious men" from "the cities" who claimed to speak on behalf of the rural majority. A classified assessment of the petitions found the names listed to be "persons of no importance whatsoever," as they were without "prestige or influence," and reported a "strong suspicion" of bribery by
Yehoshua Hankin.
Finally, following the violence in Jerusalem,
a statement was sent to general Bols by the Abu-Gosh sheikhs for transmission to the Prime Minister in London. In it they condemned the riots and proclaimed their support of Zionism, citing their petitions as evidence. Bols again
referred it to Samuel in London. This is, to my knowledge, the only telegram sent in the wake of the riots - i.e. April 1920. But primary sources yada yada --
ארינמל (
talk) 13:08, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
Two accounts of the riots were published by John Patterson in 1922. The second was by a "senior British officer," and could perhaps be quoted in the article, as it describes the initial outbreak near the Jaffa gate.-- ארינמל ( talk) 13:25, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
this 01:23, 6 March 2021 following this 20:35, 5 March 2021, which I reverted, breaks the IR rule. You are obliged to revert, and if 'trigger' in the lead worries you, argue for a change in the lead here. Nishidani ( talk) 13:51, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert.
The trigger which turned the procession into a riot is not known with certainty - some evidence exists suggesting Jewish provocation, but it is also possible,
though unreported,that Arab activities also contribute
Dispute exists concerning the cause that triggered the riots, with narratives that assign primary blame to the Arabs, the Jews, or culpability on both sides.
Not sure what's going on here, the lead is OK as far as I can see. What goes into the body is a different discussion, the body may be more detailed. Now the main point here is that you cannot simply write off what a reliable source says because one doesn't like it. The best solution, as usual, is contradictory sourcing ie alternative sources that say something different and add those in for balance. If there are none, then the best solution is to attribute what is being said to whoever is saying it rather than stating it in WP voice as a fact (that reference is not written properly, it needs a chapter/author addition being an edited work). Selfstudier ( talk) 18:55, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
The article says that " comparison was made between racist, anti -Semitic Eastern European pogroms , with the colonial adventure and ethnic exclusivity " that is Zionism. The word "colonial" is incorrectly applied to a native people coming back to its homeland, especially after the expulsion of Jews from Israel by Romans, Christians and Moslems( including Haj Amin Husseini, who planned to murder Mandate Palestinian Jews in a German - aided Holocaust). And with the long history of British, American, and other Christian Friends of Zion- Friends numbering some50 million today- "ethnic exclusive " is untrue,- and I demand that it and the term colonial be removed Docaryeh1989 ( talk) 12:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
“In its wake, sheikhs of 82 villages around the city and Jaffa, claiming to represent 70% of the population, issued a document protesting the demonstrations against the Jews. This condemnation may have been procured with bribes. [4]” —Edit: the source is no longer down, but I’m unable to view more than about 2 paragraphs in the article , and can’t find the claim that there may have been bribery involved in this condemnation. https://www.haaretz.com/2012-04-06/ty-article/when-zionism-was-an-arab-cause/0000017f-e219-df7c-a5ff-e27b00310000 EgyptianBlue22 ( talk) 15:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)