This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Wikipedians page. |
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 730 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The pages address the same topic with roughly the same level of detail, so we ought to WP:CONSOLIDATE them. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 20:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Previously launched discussions at Wikipedia_talk:Administration, Wikipedia_talk:Protection policy and Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability will continue at this central location.
According to Merriam-Webster Thesaurus and Wiktionary, "Contributor" and "Editor" are not synonyms! Until my recent contributions on Wikipedia (second sentence), Wikipedia:About and Help:Your_first_article (first sentence), there were virtually no mention at all on Wikipedia that a contributor is an editor, not to mention Wikipedians... Clearly, there was a need for such a clarification as my bold edits were not immediately reverted... Still many long-time editors assume that everyone knows "contributor=editor=Wikipedian", as if it was common knowledge or even common sense on Wikipedia. It wouldn't surprise me if more people than we think believe that "Wikipedians" are "Wikipedia users" and thus anyone using Wikipedia.
My proposition for "Information" and "Policies and Guidelines" pages (that mixes terms) is to reach consensus to:
1. publish "contributor=editor=Wikipedian" (to educate readers, as on
Wikipedia)
2. or standardize the wording by using only the already majoritary term (from experience, 99% chance to be "editors")
Objective is to improve readability, as newcomers and readers may think: "another name"="another status". — Antoine Legrand ( talk) 18:50, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Copied from Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#contributor=editor - clarification required: Lembit Staan ( talk) 22:01, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
because you can "contribute" (e.g., uploading images, operating a bot) without "editing"-- this is the same as to say that you can operate an excavator without digging a hole - i.e., a little sense to say so, unless you are a lawyer. Lembit Staan ( talk) 22:45, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
After the dust settles, we may want to update Wikipedia:Glossary, which say: "Editor - Anyone who writes or modifies Wikipedia articles. That includes you. Other terms with the same meaning: contributor, user." But it does not say who Wikipedian is. :-) Lembit Staan ( talk) 22:40, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
For those of you that still have questions and want to know more in details my way of working, feel free to read the second link Wikipedia_talk:Protection policy and click "Show" Extended content. — Antoine Legrand ( talk) 09:42, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
To improve the wording of the first sentence on WP:Wikipedians, I would suggest:
"The editors, also called contributors on Wikipedia, are known as Wikipedians and, these, are the community of volunteers who write and maintain Wikipedia articles, unlike readers who simply read them."
I think this is a much more "polished" first sentence. Please, bear in mind that most of the people navigating Wikipedia may have never heard about Wikipedians before, even more those clicking on the term because they want to know more about it! From experience, even if "Wikipedian" is present on Wikipedia it is not an overall present term. So I think that beginning the sentence with a well-known word is better. When I wrote that according to Merriam-Webster and Wiktionary "editors" and "contributors" are not synomyms, several long-term editors argued that it is well known "on Wikipedia", that editors=contributors. So let's stress this, by writing: "...also called contributors on Wikipedia..." and not simply "Editors, also called contributors, are known as Wikipedians...". I use who "write and maintain" and "community of volunteers" inspired by the first sentence on Wikipedia. Maybe my suggestion can even further been "polished" by a native English speaking editor (I am not sure to properly link "community of volunteers" to Wikipedians!). — Antoine Legrand ( talk) 13:51, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
"My sentence was only a "suggestion""It was a strikingly bad suggestion, worse than the existing text and inherently bad English, whatever it "was made in reaction of" (sic). Please acknowledge that. The current lead is not "lacking to educate newcomers" (sic); we don't need to tell people we won't call them aeroplanes and we don't need to tell people we won't call them "volunteers who edit" - and besides, we will often call ourselves volunteers, with some asperity when we see time wasted by disruption. Again, please get some experience reading and writing English encyclopedia articles and indeed, English in general. NebY ( talk) 21:57, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
@
Jc37 I disagree with the changes made on the page. Contributors and editors are missing from the definition... and MUST be present. Volunteers is too vague. We are editors and contributors "before" being volunteers. Wikipedians is often a wikilink in different articles on Wikipedia and visitors that want to know more about the term only learn that we are people giving some time for Wikipedia as volunteers. Also, editors and contributors are talking each other using "editor" or "contributor" before using "Wikipedian". I thought we first had to discuss here to find a "consensus" among volunteers editors before publishing a new version... — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Antoine Legrand (
talk •
contribs)
Please could you update: "It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors." > "It contains the advice or opinions of one or more editors."
"editors" versus "contributors" score (to make realize overwhelming "editor" usage, and thus that "editor" must be privileged).
Some examples:
Wikipedia:Essays: 8 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors" (I edited the page to add 1 x "contributor"; to state "contributor=editor")
Category:Wikipedia_essays: 141 x "editors" versus 2 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:Wikipedia_essays: 6 x "editors" versus 2 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:The value of essays: 5 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:The difference between policies, guidelines and essays: 9 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:Don't cite essays or proposals as if they were policy: 5 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors" + Template:Essay 1 x "contributor"
So there are over 2000 essays. Most of them showing only 1 occurence of "contributor" on their page (because of Template:Essay transclusion). This can "confuse" newcomers, readers, non-native English speaking people if they don't know that "contributor=editor". — Antoine Legrand ( talk) 22:37, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Wikipedians page. |
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 730 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The pages address the same topic with roughly the same level of detail, so we ought to WP:CONSOLIDATE them. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 20:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Previously launched discussions at Wikipedia_talk:Administration, Wikipedia_talk:Protection policy and Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability will continue at this central location.
According to Merriam-Webster Thesaurus and Wiktionary, "Contributor" and "Editor" are not synonyms! Until my recent contributions on Wikipedia (second sentence), Wikipedia:About and Help:Your_first_article (first sentence), there were virtually no mention at all on Wikipedia that a contributor is an editor, not to mention Wikipedians... Clearly, there was a need for such a clarification as my bold edits were not immediately reverted... Still many long-time editors assume that everyone knows "contributor=editor=Wikipedian", as if it was common knowledge or even common sense on Wikipedia. It wouldn't surprise me if more people than we think believe that "Wikipedians" are "Wikipedia users" and thus anyone using Wikipedia.
My proposition for "Information" and "Policies and Guidelines" pages (that mixes terms) is to reach consensus to:
1. publish "contributor=editor=Wikipedian" (to educate readers, as on
Wikipedia)
2. or standardize the wording by using only the already majoritary term (from experience, 99% chance to be "editors")
Objective is to improve readability, as newcomers and readers may think: "another name"="another status". — Antoine Legrand ( talk) 18:50, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Copied from Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#contributor=editor - clarification required: Lembit Staan ( talk) 22:01, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
because you can "contribute" (e.g., uploading images, operating a bot) without "editing"-- this is the same as to say that you can operate an excavator without digging a hole - i.e., a little sense to say so, unless you are a lawyer. Lembit Staan ( talk) 22:45, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
After the dust settles, we may want to update Wikipedia:Glossary, which say: "Editor - Anyone who writes or modifies Wikipedia articles. That includes you. Other terms with the same meaning: contributor, user." But it does not say who Wikipedian is. :-) Lembit Staan ( talk) 22:40, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
For those of you that still have questions and want to know more in details my way of working, feel free to read the second link Wikipedia_talk:Protection policy and click "Show" Extended content. — Antoine Legrand ( talk) 09:42, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
To improve the wording of the first sentence on WP:Wikipedians, I would suggest:
"The editors, also called contributors on Wikipedia, are known as Wikipedians and, these, are the community of volunteers who write and maintain Wikipedia articles, unlike readers who simply read them."
I think this is a much more "polished" first sentence. Please, bear in mind that most of the people navigating Wikipedia may have never heard about Wikipedians before, even more those clicking on the term because they want to know more about it! From experience, even if "Wikipedian" is present on Wikipedia it is not an overall present term. So I think that beginning the sentence with a well-known word is better. When I wrote that according to Merriam-Webster and Wiktionary "editors" and "contributors" are not synomyms, several long-term editors argued that it is well known "on Wikipedia", that editors=contributors. So let's stress this, by writing: "...also called contributors on Wikipedia..." and not simply "Editors, also called contributors, are known as Wikipedians...". I use who "write and maintain" and "community of volunteers" inspired by the first sentence on Wikipedia. Maybe my suggestion can even further been "polished" by a native English speaking editor (I am not sure to properly link "community of volunteers" to Wikipedians!). — Antoine Legrand ( talk) 13:51, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
"My sentence was only a "suggestion""It was a strikingly bad suggestion, worse than the existing text and inherently bad English, whatever it "was made in reaction of" (sic). Please acknowledge that. The current lead is not "lacking to educate newcomers" (sic); we don't need to tell people we won't call them aeroplanes and we don't need to tell people we won't call them "volunteers who edit" - and besides, we will often call ourselves volunteers, with some asperity when we see time wasted by disruption. Again, please get some experience reading and writing English encyclopedia articles and indeed, English in general. NebY ( talk) 21:57, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
@
Jc37 I disagree with the changes made on the page. Contributors and editors are missing from the definition... and MUST be present. Volunteers is too vague. We are editors and contributors "before" being volunteers. Wikipedians is often a wikilink in different articles on Wikipedia and visitors that want to know more about the term only learn that we are people giving some time for Wikipedia as volunteers. Also, editors and contributors are talking each other using "editor" or "contributor" before using "Wikipedian". I thought we first had to discuss here to find a "consensus" among volunteers editors before publishing a new version... — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Antoine Legrand (
talk •
contribs)
Please could you update: "It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors." > "It contains the advice or opinions of one or more editors."
"editors" versus "contributors" score (to make realize overwhelming "editor" usage, and thus that "editor" must be privileged).
Some examples:
Wikipedia:Essays: 8 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors" (I edited the page to add 1 x "contributor"; to state "contributor=editor")
Category:Wikipedia_essays: 141 x "editors" versus 2 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:Wikipedia_essays: 6 x "editors" versus 2 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:The value of essays: 5 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:The difference between policies, guidelines and essays: 9 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:Don't cite essays or proposals as if they were policy: 5 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors" + Template:Essay 1 x "contributor"
So there are over 2000 essays. Most of them showing only 1 occurence of "contributor" on their page (because of Template:Essay transclusion). This can "confuse" newcomers, readers, non-native English speaking people if they don't know that "contributor=editor". — Antoine Legrand ( talk) 22:37, 16 September 2021 (UTC)