This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Done Hey. There was a request for a third opinion on whether the images on Lead (leg) are captioned correctly. I'm not nearly qualified enough to answer this one, but I have a feeling that someone here is. Can someone other than Montanabw and Una Smith take a look at this and give their opinion? Thanks. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 17:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Folks, totally open question: Should we create a category for fictional horse stories, authors, etc.? I was thinking of this in terms of articles like The Saddle Club (books). Not sure we want to take on more work, but maybe there should be a category? Whether or not the category would be tagged for WPEQ, I'd say no, but may be nice to have one-stop shopping for those who care? Just a thought. talk amongst yourselves... Montanabw (talk) 21:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Good idea. And how about creating articles for other FHBs like Thoughbred? --
UnicornTwilight (
talk) 07:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Gypsy Vanner horse. 'Nuff said. Read and weep. I took a run at it a long time ago, but gave up in despair. It needs a major overhaul. Maybe an entire rewrite. Seems to have no consistent active editor, various people sort of hit it for a couple weeks, usually adding all sorts of peacock terms, then cut and run, never to return. Thus, boldness in any constructive manner should be OK. Montanabw (talk) 06:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm fiddling around to see if I can fix it. Might just make it worse, but you never know. -- UnicornTwilight ( talk) 07:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Easy Jet is at Featured Articles Candidates, feel free to weigh in and rip it to bits! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The taxonomy section of the Quagga article needs some work. Right now it presents the classification of the Quagga as a done deal, when in actuality it is anything but settled. Someone willing to spend some time on digging up the current citations should rewrite this section to be more up to date. Kaldari ( talk) 22:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
The user that created the listing of articles by notability has now created a listing of pages needing cleanup by project!!! Ours can be found at: Wikipedia:WikiProject Equine/Cleanup listing.
This listing will be re-run every few months, so we will have an updated listing. In the meantime, this listing can be edited, so as people work on the articles, it would be great if everyone could strike out, remove, or otherwise note articles that they have worked on and removed the tags from, so that we're not duplicating efforts.
I'll also be placing this listing on the main page of the project under the articles needing cleanup section. Dana boomer ( talk) 15:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Hope this is the right place to do this. I made a few photos of horses recently, but do not have a clue what breed they are. There aren't that many photos around on commons, so if you think the images are good enough and useful, please identify and use them accordingly. -- Rror ( talk) 21:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, Thoroughbred has its Peer Review, and with a bit of touchups and some new info I just turned up, should be ready for FAC within the week. Now the question is... what next? We should probably get Horse up to at least GA status. Others that are A class or GA class are: Domestication of the horse, Gelding, Appaloosa, Arabian horse, Equine nutrition, Horses in the Middle Ages, & Horses in warfare.
B class articles that might be worth pushing up (I'm sure there are others, these would be my choice): American Quarter Horse, Equestrianism, Evolution of the horse, Horse behavior, Horse gait, Morgan horse, Przewalski's Horse, Saddle, & Xenophon.
Any other suggestions? Ealdgyth - Talk 00:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Roughly a month ago, I created a cleanup listing for this WikiProject. I have now updated the list with a new data snapshot of May 24. Also, the list format has slightly changed.
On this occassion, I would like to ask you for feedback about this kind of listings. (I am currently evaluating whether it makes sense to offer them on a larger scale.) Did you find the listing useful for your project work? Does it reasonably lead you to articles that you can clean up? What could be improved about the content or formatting of the list?
Please leave your comments at User talk:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings. Thanks, -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 09:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi gang, a new editor created Budweiser Clydesdales. It's a stub, but it IS a fun article idea and worth expanding. Anyone want to help? Montanabw (talk) 23:22, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've drunk the kool-aid. What do you all want me to work on? What's on the top of the To Do list? Eventer ( talk) 19:23, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi gang, A new editor went and made a whole bunch of new categories. Most of them were deleted without problem, but the new Quarter Horse cat has generated comment. Can y'all go over here and weigh in on the issue if you care to? Frankly, I really don't care which they keep or toss, but given that the old version has been stable for years, may cause some hiccups. Ealdgyth and Dana, you guys may be particularly interested. Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 18:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Could someone have a look at Equestrian center and see if you think there is any hope for it. Though it looks like a good faith attempt it's horrible at the moment and I think if I attempt to do anything to it I'll just end up turning it into a dic-def... - Hunting dog ( talk) 22:38, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I began some work into wikisource, since horsemanship old works are mostly interesting. I'm presently working about Equitation (1922) by Henry de Bussigny, and the booklet of John Solomon Rarey The_Modern_Art_of_Taming_Wild_Horses (1858) is ready. I hope that it could a useful idea. -- Alex_brollo Talk| Contrib 09:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.
Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot ( Disable) 21:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Gang, it's the quiet ones you have to watch! Countercanter has just done a WONDERFUL new article, Primitive markings. Check it out! Montanabw (talk) 02:33, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
For the next week or so I'm going to be pretty busy. Volunteer position I've been in a holding pattern on for a while just started training, and the intensive part is for the next week or so. After about next Friday things should be a bit less busy, I hope. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I hope I'm doing this right. Let me know if I'm not -- I don't fully understand all the Wiki formatting yet. Just out of curiosity, how are articles ranked on the importance scale? New user Majorsky - forgot to login before posting 76.105.42.173 ( talk) 20:24, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm bold to tell you that our work : Notes on equitation and horse training (1908) can be read. I can't say that it is finished... no work on wiki is "finished"... nevertheness the rendering is complete and the booklet is really interesting in my opinion! -- Alex_brollo Talk| Contrib 20:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi Folks,
Looks like the anon IPs are once again out blanking the entire section on soring in the Tennessee Walking Horse article. Can we watchlist it and all keep our eyes on this article for a bit? The soring section is sourced, no reason to be blanked. This periodic blanking of anything about soring (or in the alternative, POV arguing that it's a wee little problem and no one really does it any more) has been going on for at least the time I've been on wiki and seems to especially flare up every year about the time the big major shows hit, particularly the Celebration, which is next month. This could be a problem year because the feds are out in force at the shows and have new tools to detect soring (thermal imaging among them). For the latest, here is an update from The Horse online: http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12242 . Note that I have never seen this section blanked by a registered user, it's always anon IPs. Thanks all. Montanabw (talk) 06:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I just added a section to Talk:List_of_plants_poisonous_to_equines. This page is not very helpful for the typical horse owner. I would be willing to redo the page in a fashion common to other pages with lists of plants toxic to horses (see my cites) but don't want to spend the time if the page would then be reverted because it is no longer in an approved fashion for "lists of plants". Can we get some support for a horse-owner friendly list in this talk page? Is there a proper way to go about making a plant list in a non-standard fashion? (Do we need permission from some PtB?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.103.134 ( talk) 16:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
There are various references throughout Wikipedia to horses "bolting" in various contexts. This behavious seems pretty vacant of coverage in Wikipedia; a brief disambig line at Bolt and a briefer definition at wikt:bolt. Should there be an article about it? It's unclear to me exactly what makes a horse bolt and why they are so hard to subdue. Seems like you people would be the best to ask about this. BigBlueFish ( talk) 22:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Hello, all --
I realize that this is a distasteful subject to many in the horse field, especially among those with a love of show jumpers, but the John Edwards and Rielle Hunter affair currently in the news has opened up many, many questions on the subject of the late 20th century horse murders scandal. The reason for that, in case you don't know, is that Rielle Hunter was formerly Lisa Druck, whose father, James Druck, conspired to have her beloved show jumper Henry the Hawk electrocuted to collect the insurance money on him. This tragedy formed the background for a 1988 novel based on Lisa Druck's life, called Story of my Life by Jay McInerney. Later, in the early to mid 1990s, the actual horse killing scandal was exposed to the public through articles in the New York Times and Sports Illustrated, and then through a full-length book called "Hot Blood." An FBI investigation into the horse murders led to the conviction of a number of highly placed people in the show jumper and general equestrian sports world on charges of insurance fraud.
When Rielle Hunter's background was probed, due to her affair with John Edwards, it turned out that she and her horse were prominent victims of the horse murder insurance scam, and her own father was one of the orchestrators of the criminal activities. But in trying to link this information up to her bio article, it turned up that there wss no article on the subject of the horse murders at Wikipedia, doubtless because the scandal occured before the development of the world wide web. An article was just created today, but it is not comprehensive in scope and needs to be expanded greatly lest it be deleted. There is an article on the murder of the millionairess Helen Brach whose death, in 1977, was also connected to the horse murders scandal, and it too could use improvement.
I am looking for a few good editors who have the brackground to write the horse murders article, and to link it to the Helen Brach murder, show jumping, and Rielle Hunter articles. No need to reply to me -- if you are interested, you know what to do. I will try to help, also, as best i can, but the topic is far from my usual field of writing, and i would prefer to see it handled by those with the greatest depth of knowledge on the subject.
If you need sources to cite, you can find the best of them at the Rielle Hunter page in the section on her early life and family. Here are two more:
[[ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE0D8173FF936A3575AC0A965958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all New York Times, On Killing Horses for Money: A Craftsman's Dirty Secrets, by Don Terry, Published: September 5, 1993]]
[[ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803E5DF1639F933A05753C1A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all New York Times, Horse Show; Equestrians Facing Competition and Lingering Scandal, by Robin Finn, Published: October 30, 1995]]
I am posting this identical request to a number of horse-rleated talk pages, so you may see it more than once, for which i apologize in advance.
Sincerely, catherine yronwode Catherineyronwode ( talk) 02:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Now you know they do make a nice insulated winter riding boot that goes nicely with a pair of Carhart overalls, and won't get stuck in the stirrup. :) - Epousesquecido ( talk) 04:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts#User:Montanabw. -- Una Smith ( talk) 05:29, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, can you please help me? I want to create a category Riding hall on commons. But I don't know if riding hall really is the right term for it: I mean de:Reithalle, you can watch the pictures there. Unfortunately there's no article on en. Thanks in advance -- Klara ( talk) 20:27, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to everyone, I think Riding arena would be a good choice, so outdoor and indoor pictures could be inserted into the category. Oh, I just see that there already exists a category commons:Category:Riding houses. But it seems that the creator is no native English speaker... Also there are only pictures of very old buildings inserted. For newer ones riding house wouldn't be adequate I guess. -- Klara ( talk) 19:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Now I have created it. Category: commons:Category:Riding arenas, but more important: commons:Riding arena. Could you please check if I've described it in the right way. Thank you very much, I'll come back if I have further questions. :) If there's anything you need concerning the German Wikipedia or language, just ask me. -- Klara ( talk) 20:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Wiki list the Plains zebra's name as Equus quagga is there any justifiction for this? 69.179.56.211 ( talk) 22:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.
We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.
A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.
We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Some new contributors are trying to write Stolen Horse International, and could use some help. -- Una Smith ( talk) 20:41, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
If anyone wants to tackle a breed article that really needs help, check out Mangalarga Marchador. 'Nuff said. If that one doesn't keep you busy, Gypsy Vanner horse also would benefit from some actual sourcing and POV checks. Enjoy! (heh, heh, heh...) Montanabw (talk) 23:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The "Konik" page was recently moved to Polish konik - now it's proposed to move it back, based on what the most common English name seems to be. Please comment on the article's talk page.-- Kotniski ( talk) 08:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi all. UnaSmith is doing a really useful thing, creating templates for some of the horse tack articles. See Template:Bits and Template:reins. I do really like the idea of a template to direct peoiple to related articles, and am in fact quite appreciative that she has the energy to start this project. However (surprise, surprise), she and I are having, as usual, a bit of a philosophical discussion. I believe that Una's position is that a lot of separate equipment templates are a good thing. Mine is that I think it would be better to create a larger "Horse tack" uber-template that, like Template:Equidae is broad in focus, incorporating the saddle and harness articles as all the bit, bridle, and rein articles. Or, as a compromise, maybe create a "horse headgear" template that merges the bit and rein templates with all the bridle, halter and hackamore articles. We are also having differences of opinion over the categorization of bits. Some outside help would be appreciated because, as is so well-known from the Horse GA review, the two of us may not have the best objectivity when it comes to the work of the other and I truly want to keep things going in a civil and productive manner. If no one else cares, the two of us can talk it out ourselves, but maybe, given our past history, some overseers of the discussion would be wise? Montanabw (talk) 22:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Please discuss merging on Template talk:Bits. Thanks. -- Una Smith ( talk) 23:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Given the controversy over the tack template issue, does anyone object if I remove the bit/reins templates from the articles where they were placed until the issue is resolved and consensus reached? I'll give this 24 hours for comment and then start tossing. This will include Template:Bits, Template:Reins and Template:Tack. Montanabw (talk) 20:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Per Dana's thoughts that there is a need for some sections about tack to be broken out a bit, I am wondering if this idea might be a solution to find a compromise between a really long and inclusive template and a more compact-looking template on the page. EIther that or we could have something that is big but collapsable, such as This one. Second question, per some of the articles linked on the rein template, is if or how riding techniques should also be linked on tack pages. (My own thinking is "not at all") Thoughts? Montanabw (talk) 20:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
There was a request to create an article titled "Horse Health." I created a redirect from Horse care, which covers a lot of it. There is also Category:Horse health. The editor who put up the request commented that there is dog health and cat health. What does anyone think? Do we need to create a new article or rename horse care? No big deal to me either way, just basically moving stuff from the WPEQ main page to here for any discussion. Montanabw (talk) 06:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I've just tweaked the main page a bit to add a template for a neat little bot I just found. Ya'll may remember B. Wolterding (the guy that brought us the bot-run cleanup listing), and he's now created an Article Alert bot that tells us when articles under the WPEQ jurisdiction are up for deletion, GA, FA, PR, DYK, move request, etc. There's probably not a lot happening that we don't know about, since we're fairly small and between the main editors have most of the articles watchlisted, but I thought it would be a nice tool to have.
At the moment, there's nothing there but the template, as it will take a couple of days for the bot to kick in, but for the moment, if anyone has any comments or problems with this, please let me know. More about the bot can be found at User:B._Wolterding/Article_alerts. Dana boomer ( talk) 15:36, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Heck horse has been locked down as a copyvio of the Oklahoma state site. I moved the text to the duly authorized subpage, Talk:Heck horse/Temp. I don't have the time to work on this, but am flagging it here in case someone else does. Basically, read the info on the original article page for instructions, and then just work with the editor who slapped on the copyvio tag, edit the text to remove the problem, and the article can be restored. It's just a start class article anyway, but one of some minor importance to WPEQ as it's about the attempts to breed back the Tarpan. We should save it. Anyone wanting an editing project, go for it! Montanabw (talk) 20:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Anyone who cares, check out discussion ongoing at Talk:Equestrianism#Health_concerns and sandbox at User:Twinzor/Equestrianism health concerns. Montanabw (talk) 08:08, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
For thouse of the project not watching the page, Equidae has recently been revamped, with all content relating to the genus Equus being moved to Equus (genus), while the remaining information has been shifted to discuss the entire Family. Please link to Equus for genus and species related linking and Equidae for family level linking. -- Kevmin ( talk) 18:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
In line with the reorganization of Equidae I ahve posted a discussion and proposal on Template:Equidae requesting the template be renamed to Template:Equus: or similar, as the template in its current form actually does not cover anything beyond the genus Equus at this point. This combined with the reorg. means that the template really should link to Equus or Horse. Please read the discussion and comment.-- Kevmin ( talk) 18:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Update: Template:Equidae has been moved to Template:Equine and there is a formal RFC now re its content and on what articles it should appear. The RFC also concerns navigation to Category:Horse breeds. -- Una Smith ( talk) 18:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Please provide input at Talk:Wild_horse#Requested_move regarding a proposal to move Wild horse over Equus ferus, a redirect, in line with most other equine articles and preparatory to making a disambiguation page at Wild horse. -- Una Smith ( talk) 21:33, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I just discovered that Tarpan was moved without any discussion to Equus ferus ferus, unilaterally by Una. I have requested the move to be discussed and undone if no consensus for the original move exists. See Talk:Equus_ferus_ferus#Requested_move -- Kim van der Linde at venus 16:07, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
|
I thought this WikiProject might be interested. Ping me with any specific queries or leave them on the page linked to above. Thanks! - Jarry1250 ( t, c) 21:50, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
After digging more and more through the literature about the relatedness between Wild horses (Equus ferus: Tarpan and Przewalzkii's) and domesticated horses (Equus caballus), I think the current choice of wikipedia to treat them as two species is not valid. The Mammal Species of the World: Third Edition treats them as a single species already, which is the de facto rule for the wikiproject mammals. So, one solution that could solve all issues is to revamp the Horse, Wild Horse, Tarpan and Przewalski's Horse as follows:
This would free Wild horse to be a explanatory page for the various ways Wild horse is used, aka Tarpan, Przewalski's and feral horse breeds. Any comments on this idea? -- Kim van der Linde at venus 19:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was No move per WP:Snow. 199.125.109.99 ( talk) 03:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I have formally requested that Horse is first moved to Domestic Horse after which Wild Horse can be moved to Horse. The reasons are outlined above, but in short, most current sources treat the domestic horse as a subspecies of the horse, which includes the Tarpan, Domestic Horse and Przewalski's Horse. Fo fix this, the requested moves are required.-- Kim van der Linde at venus 04:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Moving the discussion components here. I guess that for wikipedia article naming, to me, taxonomy is trumped by common name understanding. But as for the rest, the "wild" horse and the "domestic" horse are quite clearly distinguishable, even in the case of feral animals. On one hand, Equine subspecies crossbreds are often sterile, case in point, the mule. (A rare few examples are not, but they are the exception) But the point here is that the never-domesticate horses living into modern times (Przewalski and now-extinct Tarpan) are in clear ways, at least in behavior and phenotype, substantially different from the domestic horse. Do they have a common ancestor found as recently as 5 to 7 thousand years ago? Probably. Do they share some DNA characteristics? Looks like it. Does this mean they are the "same thing" now? No. Is it possible that a very few ancient "wild" horses developed a genetic mutation that allowed domestication? Most likely. But did the family tree diverge at that point between domesticatable and undomesticatable horses? Apparently, but taxonomy probably doesn't really look at these things at that minute a level (hence, if taxonomists want to call the modern domestic horse equus ferus caballus, I won't argue, I'm not a taxonomist-- LOL!). Could some fertile wild/domestic crossbreds have been produced subsequent to domestication? Probably. Who knows how the genetics of a "domestication" gene work in the horse, dog, cow or whatever ... was it a dominant trait that passed on more often than not with a few "outlaw" recessives that still occasionally pop up in domestic horse populations today? Beats me. Anyway, that's my two bits here. Montanabw (talk) 22:00, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Would anyone have a problem with me moving Wikipedia:WikiProject Equine/Horse breeds/to do to Wikipedia:WikiProject Equine/to do - basically turning it into a project-wide to-do list instead of a taskforce-wide one? After I completed the move I'd also be updating the list with current projects and requests and removing anything that's already been completed. This way, the template could be moved to the main page, where it would be seen by more people and would maybe do more good, rather than its current position of rather buried on a task force sub-page. Thoughts? Dana boomer ( talk) 02:42, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) All looks good to me. Still hunting books here... Ealdgyth - Talk 01:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.
All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot ( Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 05:21, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
I've been thinking about creating a Horses Portal for a while now. I've about gotten to the point of creating one, but thought I'd toss the idea out there for everyone else to mull over and give feedback on. Portal:Cats and Portal:Dogs are two that I'm planning to somewhat base the horses one on, especially as both of those are featured portals, which is sort of my goal. WP Equine has quite a bit of good content, so I think an FP wouldn't be too far out of reach. I've started gathering content and content ideas together at User:Dana boomer/Portal if anyone wants to check it out. Dana boomer ( talk) 19:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Allright, it's begun. Check it out at Portal:Horses. Articles and pictures are automatically rotated through some lovely templates, and new good/featured work can easily be added to the mix. Now we just need to work on getting more articles up to par :) Let me know if there's anything that needs to be changed. Dana boomer ( talk) 00:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Done Hey. There was a request for a third opinion on whether the images on Lead (leg) are captioned correctly. I'm not nearly qualified enough to answer this one, but I have a feeling that someone here is. Can someone other than Montanabw and Una Smith take a look at this and give their opinion? Thanks. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 17:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Folks, totally open question: Should we create a category for fictional horse stories, authors, etc.? I was thinking of this in terms of articles like The Saddle Club (books). Not sure we want to take on more work, but maybe there should be a category? Whether or not the category would be tagged for WPEQ, I'd say no, but may be nice to have one-stop shopping for those who care? Just a thought. talk amongst yourselves... Montanabw (talk) 21:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Good idea. And how about creating articles for other FHBs like Thoughbred? --
UnicornTwilight (
talk) 07:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Gypsy Vanner horse. 'Nuff said. Read and weep. I took a run at it a long time ago, but gave up in despair. It needs a major overhaul. Maybe an entire rewrite. Seems to have no consistent active editor, various people sort of hit it for a couple weeks, usually adding all sorts of peacock terms, then cut and run, never to return. Thus, boldness in any constructive manner should be OK. Montanabw (talk) 06:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm fiddling around to see if I can fix it. Might just make it worse, but you never know. -- UnicornTwilight ( talk) 07:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Easy Jet is at Featured Articles Candidates, feel free to weigh in and rip it to bits! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The taxonomy section of the Quagga article needs some work. Right now it presents the classification of the Quagga as a done deal, when in actuality it is anything but settled. Someone willing to spend some time on digging up the current citations should rewrite this section to be more up to date. Kaldari ( talk) 22:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
The user that created the listing of articles by notability has now created a listing of pages needing cleanup by project!!! Ours can be found at: Wikipedia:WikiProject Equine/Cleanup listing.
This listing will be re-run every few months, so we will have an updated listing. In the meantime, this listing can be edited, so as people work on the articles, it would be great if everyone could strike out, remove, or otherwise note articles that they have worked on and removed the tags from, so that we're not duplicating efforts.
I'll also be placing this listing on the main page of the project under the articles needing cleanup section. Dana boomer ( talk) 15:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Hope this is the right place to do this. I made a few photos of horses recently, but do not have a clue what breed they are. There aren't that many photos around on commons, so if you think the images are good enough and useful, please identify and use them accordingly. -- Rror ( talk) 21:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, Thoroughbred has its Peer Review, and with a bit of touchups and some new info I just turned up, should be ready for FAC within the week. Now the question is... what next? We should probably get Horse up to at least GA status. Others that are A class or GA class are: Domestication of the horse, Gelding, Appaloosa, Arabian horse, Equine nutrition, Horses in the Middle Ages, & Horses in warfare.
B class articles that might be worth pushing up (I'm sure there are others, these would be my choice): American Quarter Horse, Equestrianism, Evolution of the horse, Horse behavior, Horse gait, Morgan horse, Przewalski's Horse, Saddle, & Xenophon.
Any other suggestions? Ealdgyth - Talk 00:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Roughly a month ago, I created a cleanup listing for this WikiProject. I have now updated the list with a new data snapshot of May 24. Also, the list format has slightly changed.
On this occassion, I would like to ask you for feedback about this kind of listings. (I am currently evaluating whether it makes sense to offer them on a larger scale.) Did you find the listing useful for your project work? Does it reasonably lead you to articles that you can clean up? What could be improved about the content or formatting of the list?
Please leave your comments at User talk:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings. Thanks, -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 09:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi gang, a new editor created Budweiser Clydesdales. It's a stub, but it IS a fun article idea and worth expanding. Anyone want to help? Montanabw (talk) 23:22, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've drunk the kool-aid. What do you all want me to work on? What's on the top of the To Do list? Eventer ( talk) 19:23, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi gang, A new editor went and made a whole bunch of new categories. Most of them were deleted without problem, but the new Quarter Horse cat has generated comment. Can y'all go over here and weigh in on the issue if you care to? Frankly, I really don't care which they keep or toss, but given that the old version has been stable for years, may cause some hiccups. Ealdgyth and Dana, you guys may be particularly interested. Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 18:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Could someone have a look at Equestrian center and see if you think there is any hope for it. Though it looks like a good faith attempt it's horrible at the moment and I think if I attempt to do anything to it I'll just end up turning it into a dic-def... - Hunting dog ( talk) 22:38, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I began some work into wikisource, since horsemanship old works are mostly interesting. I'm presently working about Equitation (1922) by Henry de Bussigny, and the booklet of John Solomon Rarey The_Modern_Art_of_Taming_Wild_Horses (1858) is ready. I hope that it could a useful idea. -- Alex_brollo Talk| Contrib 09:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.
Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot ( Disable) 21:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Gang, it's the quiet ones you have to watch! Countercanter has just done a WONDERFUL new article, Primitive markings. Check it out! Montanabw (talk) 02:33, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
For the next week or so I'm going to be pretty busy. Volunteer position I've been in a holding pattern on for a while just started training, and the intensive part is for the next week or so. After about next Friday things should be a bit less busy, I hope. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I hope I'm doing this right. Let me know if I'm not -- I don't fully understand all the Wiki formatting yet. Just out of curiosity, how are articles ranked on the importance scale? New user Majorsky - forgot to login before posting 76.105.42.173 ( talk) 20:24, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm bold to tell you that our work : Notes on equitation and horse training (1908) can be read. I can't say that it is finished... no work on wiki is "finished"... nevertheness the rendering is complete and the booklet is really interesting in my opinion! -- Alex_brollo Talk| Contrib 20:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi Folks,
Looks like the anon IPs are once again out blanking the entire section on soring in the Tennessee Walking Horse article. Can we watchlist it and all keep our eyes on this article for a bit? The soring section is sourced, no reason to be blanked. This periodic blanking of anything about soring (or in the alternative, POV arguing that it's a wee little problem and no one really does it any more) has been going on for at least the time I've been on wiki and seems to especially flare up every year about the time the big major shows hit, particularly the Celebration, which is next month. This could be a problem year because the feds are out in force at the shows and have new tools to detect soring (thermal imaging among them). For the latest, here is an update from The Horse online: http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12242 . Note that I have never seen this section blanked by a registered user, it's always anon IPs. Thanks all. Montanabw (talk) 06:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I just added a section to Talk:List_of_plants_poisonous_to_equines. This page is not very helpful for the typical horse owner. I would be willing to redo the page in a fashion common to other pages with lists of plants toxic to horses (see my cites) but don't want to spend the time if the page would then be reverted because it is no longer in an approved fashion for "lists of plants". Can we get some support for a horse-owner friendly list in this talk page? Is there a proper way to go about making a plant list in a non-standard fashion? (Do we need permission from some PtB?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.103.134 ( talk) 16:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
There are various references throughout Wikipedia to horses "bolting" in various contexts. This behavious seems pretty vacant of coverage in Wikipedia; a brief disambig line at Bolt and a briefer definition at wikt:bolt. Should there be an article about it? It's unclear to me exactly what makes a horse bolt and why they are so hard to subdue. Seems like you people would be the best to ask about this. BigBlueFish ( talk) 22:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Hello, all --
I realize that this is a distasteful subject to many in the horse field, especially among those with a love of show jumpers, but the John Edwards and Rielle Hunter affair currently in the news has opened up many, many questions on the subject of the late 20th century horse murders scandal. The reason for that, in case you don't know, is that Rielle Hunter was formerly Lisa Druck, whose father, James Druck, conspired to have her beloved show jumper Henry the Hawk electrocuted to collect the insurance money on him. This tragedy formed the background for a 1988 novel based on Lisa Druck's life, called Story of my Life by Jay McInerney. Later, in the early to mid 1990s, the actual horse killing scandal was exposed to the public through articles in the New York Times and Sports Illustrated, and then through a full-length book called "Hot Blood." An FBI investigation into the horse murders led to the conviction of a number of highly placed people in the show jumper and general equestrian sports world on charges of insurance fraud.
When Rielle Hunter's background was probed, due to her affair with John Edwards, it turned out that she and her horse were prominent victims of the horse murder insurance scam, and her own father was one of the orchestrators of the criminal activities. But in trying to link this information up to her bio article, it turned up that there wss no article on the subject of the horse murders at Wikipedia, doubtless because the scandal occured before the development of the world wide web. An article was just created today, but it is not comprehensive in scope and needs to be expanded greatly lest it be deleted. There is an article on the murder of the millionairess Helen Brach whose death, in 1977, was also connected to the horse murders scandal, and it too could use improvement.
I am looking for a few good editors who have the brackground to write the horse murders article, and to link it to the Helen Brach murder, show jumping, and Rielle Hunter articles. No need to reply to me -- if you are interested, you know what to do. I will try to help, also, as best i can, but the topic is far from my usual field of writing, and i would prefer to see it handled by those with the greatest depth of knowledge on the subject.
If you need sources to cite, you can find the best of them at the Rielle Hunter page in the section on her early life and family. Here are two more:
[[ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE0D8173FF936A3575AC0A965958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all New York Times, On Killing Horses for Money: A Craftsman's Dirty Secrets, by Don Terry, Published: September 5, 1993]]
[[ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803E5DF1639F933A05753C1A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all New York Times, Horse Show; Equestrians Facing Competition and Lingering Scandal, by Robin Finn, Published: October 30, 1995]]
I am posting this identical request to a number of horse-rleated talk pages, so you may see it more than once, for which i apologize in advance.
Sincerely, catherine yronwode Catherineyronwode ( talk) 02:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Now you know they do make a nice insulated winter riding boot that goes nicely with a pair of Carhart overalls, and won't get stuck in the stirrup. :) - Epousesquecido ( talk) 04:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts#User:Montanabw. -- Una Smith ( talk) 05:29, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, can you please help me? I want to create a category Riding hall on commons. But I don't know if riding hall really is the right term for it: I mean de:Reithalle, you can watch the pictures there. Unfortunately there's no article on en. Thanks in advance -- Klara ( talk) 20:27, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to everyone, I think Riding arena would be a good choice, so outdoor and indoor pictures could be inserted into the category. Oh, I just see that there already exists a category commons:Category:Riding houses. But it seems that the creator is no native English speaker... Also there are only pictures of very old buildings inserted. For newer ones riding house wouldn't be adequate I guess. -- Klara ( talk) 19:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Now I have created it. Category: commons:Category:Riding arenas, but more important: commons:Riding arena. Could you please check if I've described it in the right way. Thank you very much, I'll come back if I have further questions. :) If there's anything you need concerning the German Wikipedia or language, just ask me. -- Klara ( talk) 20:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Wiki list the Plains zebra's name as Equus quagga is there any justifiction for this? 69.179.56.211 ( talk) 22:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.
We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.
A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.
We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Some new contributors are trying to write Stolen Horse International, and could use some help. -- Una Smith ( talk) 20:41, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
If anyone wants to tackle a breed article that really needs help, check out Mangalarga Marchador. 'Nuff said. If that one doesn't keep you busy, Gypsy Vanner horse also would benefit from some actual sourcing and POV checks. Enjoy! (heh, heh, heh...) Montanabw (talk) 23:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The "Konik" page was recently moved to Polish konik - now it's proposed to move it back, based on what the most common English name seems to be. Please comment on the article's talk page.-- Kotniski ( talk) 08:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi all. UnaSmith is doing a really useful thing, creating templates for some of the horse tack articles. See Template:Bits and Template:reins. I do really like the idea of a template to direct peoiple to related articles, and am in fact quite appreciative that she has the energy to start this project. However (surprise, surprise), she and I are having, as usual, a bit of a philosophical discussion. I believe that Una's position is that a lot of separate equipment templates are a good thing. Mine is that I think it would be better to create a larger "Horse tack" uber-template that, like Template:Equidae is broad in focus, incorporating the saddle and harness articles as all the bit, bridle, and rein articles. Or, as a compromise, maybe create a "horse headgear" template that merges the bit and rein templates with all the bridle, halter and hackamore articles. We are also having differences of opinion over the categorization of bits. Some outside help would be appreciated because, as is so well-known from the Horse GA review, the two of us may not have the best objectivity when it comes to the work of the other and I truly want to keep things going in a civil and productive manner. If no one else cares, the two of us can talk it out ourselves, but maybe, given our past history, some overseers of the discussion would be wise? Montanabw (talk) 22:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Please discuss merging on Template talk:Bits. Thanks. -- Una Smith ( talk) 23:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Given the controversy over the tack template issue, does anyone object if I remove the bit/reins templates from the articles where they were placed until the issue is resolved and consensus reached? I'll give this 24 hours for comment and then start tossing. This will include Template:Bits, Template:Reins and Template:Tack. Montanabw (talk) 20:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Per Dana's thoughts that there is a need for some sections about tack to be broken out a bit, I am wondering if this idea might be a solution to find a compromise between a really long and inclusive template and a more compact-looking template on the page. EIther that or we could have something that is big but collapsable, such as This one. Second question, per some of the articles linked on the rein template, is if or how riding techniques should also be linked on tack pages. (My own thinking is "not at all") Thoughts? Montanabw (talk) 20:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
There was a request to create an article titled "Horse Health." I created a redirect from Horse care, which covers a lot of it. There is also Category:Horse health. The editor who put up the request commented that there is dog health and cat health. What does anyone think? Do we need to create a new article or rename horse care? No big deal to me either way, just basically moving stuff from the WPEQ main page to here for any discussion. Montanabw (talk) 06:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I've just tweaked the main page a bit to add a template for a neat little bot I just found. Ya'll may remember B. Wolterding (the guy that brought us the bot-run cleanup listing), and he's now created an Article Alert bot that tells us when articles under the WPEQ jurisdiction are up for deletion, GA, FA, PR, DYK, move request, etc. There's probably not a lot happening that we don't know about, since we're fairly small and between the main editors have most of the articles watchlisted, but I thought it would be a nice tool to have.
At the moment, there's nothing there but the template, as it will take a couple of days for the bot to kick in, but for the moment, if anyone has any comments or problems with this, please let me know. More about the bot can be found at User:B._Wolterding/Article_alerts. Dana boomer ( talk) 15:36, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Heck horse has been locked down as a copyvio of the Oklahoma state site. I moved the text to the duly authorized subpage, Talk:Heck horse/Temp. I don't have the time to work on this, but am flagging it here in case someone else does. Basically, read the info on the original article page for instructions, and then just work with the editor who slapped on the copyvio tag, edit the text to remove the problem, and the article can be restored. It's just a start class article anyway, but one of some minor importance to WPEQ as it's about the attempts to breed back the Tarpan. We should save it. Anyone wanting an editing project, go for it! Montanabw (talk) 20:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Anyone who cares, check out discussion ongoing at Talk:Equestrianism#Health_concerns and sandbox at User:Twinzor/Equestrianism health concerns. Montanabw (talk) 08:08, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
For thouse of the project not watching the page, Equidae has recently been revamped, with all content relating to the genus Equus being moved to Equus (genus), while the remaining information has been shifted to discuss the entire Family. Please link to Equus for genus and species related linking and Equidae for family level linking. -- Kevmin ( talk) 18:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
In line with the reorganization of Equidae I ahve posted a discussion and proposal on Template:Equidae requesting the template be renamed to Template:Equus: or similar, as the template in its current form actually does not cover anything beyond the genus Equus at this point. This combined with the reorg. means that the template really should link to Equus or Horse. Please read the discussion and comment.-- Kevmin ( talk) 18:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Update: Template:Equidae has been moved to Template:Equine and there is a formal RFC now re its content and on what articles it should appear. The RFC also concerns navigation to Category:Horse breeds. -- Una Smith ( talk) 18:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Please provide input at Talk:Wild_horse#Requested_move regarding a proposal to move Wild horse over Equus ferus, a redirect, in line with most other equine articles and preparatory to making a disambiguation page at Wild horse. -- Una Smith ( talk) 21:33, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I just discovered that Tarpan was moved without any discussion to Equus ferus ferus, unilaterally by Una. I have requested the move to be discussed and undone if no consensus for the original move exists. See Talk:Equus_ferus_ferus#Requested_move -- Kim van der Linde at venus 16:07, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
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I thought this WikiProject might be interested. Ping me with any specific queries or leave them on the page linked to above. Thanks! - Jarry1250 ( t, c) 21:50, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
After digging more and more through the literature about the relatedness between Wild horses (Equus ferus: Tarpan and Przewalzkii's) and domesticated horses (Equus caballus), I think the current choice of wikipedia to treat them as two species is not valid. The Mammal Species of the World: Third Edition treats them as a single species already, which is the de facto rule for the wikiproject mammals. So, one solution that could solve all issues is to revamp the Horse, Wild Horse, Tarpan and Przewalski's Horse as follows:
This would free Wild horse to be a explanatory page for the various ways Wild horse is used, aka Tarpan, Przewalski's and feral horse breeds. Any comments on this idea? -- Kim van der Linde at venus 19:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was No move per WP:Snow. 199.125.109.99 ( talk) 03:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I have formally requested that Horse is first moved to Domestic Horse after which Wild Horse can be moved to Horse. The reasons are outlined above, but in short, most current sources treat the domestic horse as a subspecies of the horse, which includes the Tarpan, Domestic Horse and Przewalski's Horse. Fo fix this, the requested moves are required.-- Kim van der Linde at venus 04:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Moving the discussion components here. I guess that for wikipedia article naming, to me, taxonomy is trumped by common name understanding. But as for the rest, the "wild" horse and the "domestic" horse are quite clearly distinguishable, even in the case of feral animals. On one hand, Equine subspecies crossbreds are often sterile, case in point, the mule. (A rare few examples are not, but they are the exception) But the point here is that the never-domesticate horses living into modern times (Przewalski and now-extinct Tarpan) are in clear ways, at least in behavior and phenotype, substantially different from the domestic horse. Do they have a common ancestor found as recently as 5 to 7 thousand years ago? Probably. Do they share some DNA characteristics? Looks like it. Does this mean they are the "same thing" now? No. Is it possible that a very few ancient "wild" horses developed a genetic mutation that allowed domestication? Most likely. But did the family tree diverge at that point between domesticatable and undomesticatable horses? Apparently, but taxonomy probably doesn't really look at these things at that minute a level (hence, if taxonomists want to call the modern domestic horse equus ferus caballus, I won't argue, I'm not a taxonomist-- LOL!). Could some fertile wild/domestic crossbreds have been produced subsequent to domestication? Probably. Who knows how the genetics of a "domestication" gene work in the horse, dog, cow or whatever ... was it a dominant trait that passed on more often than not with a few "outlaw" recessives that still occasionally pop up in domestic horse populations today? Beats me. Anyway, that's my two bits here. Montanabw (talk) 22:00, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Would anyone have a problem with me moving Wikipedia:WikiProject Equine/Horse breeds/to do to Wikipedia:WikiProject Equine/to do - basically turning it into a project-wide to-do list instead of a taskforce-wide one? After I completed the move I'd also be updating the list with current projects and requests and removing anything that's already been completed. This way, the template could be moved to the main page, where it would be seen by more people and would maybe do more good, rather than its current position of rather buried on a task force sub-page. Thoughts? Dana boomer ( talk) 02:42, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) All looks good to me. Still hunting books here... Ealdgyth - Talk 01:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.
All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot ( Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 05:21, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
I've been thinking about creating a Horses Portal for a while now. I've about gotten to the point of creating one, but thought I'd toss the idea out there for everyone else to mull over and give feedback on. Portal:Cats and Portal:Dogs are two that I'm planning to somewhat base the horses one on, especially as both of those are featured portals, which is sort of my goal. WP Equine has quite a bit of good content, so I think an FP wouldn't be too far out of reach. I've started gathering content and content ideas together at User:Dana boomer/Portal if anyone wants to check it out. Dana boomer ( talk) 19:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Allright, it's begun. Check it out at Portal:Horses. Articles and pictures are automatically rotated through some lovely templates, and new good/featured work can easily be added to the mix. Now we just need to work on getting more articles up to par :) Let me know if there's anything that needs to be changed. Dana boomer ( talk) 00:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)