This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | → | Archive 35 |
I'm curious about the action over on Bill Sienkiewicz, and the single article IP editor who has removed the featured image [1] and removed the permission tag on the image itself, with the presumed authority of being one who may do so. [2] Are there presedences to this? Should this IP at least have to log into the uploader's account before retracting his WP contribution? Is there something to be ..done? MURGH disc. 00:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
What gives with
Doczilla removing every mention of the Amalgam Comics versions of characters from several dozen comics articles? I don't see any discussion of this and he coyly has each edit described as "clean up". Did I miss the discussion? I bring this to your attention in hopes some dedicated WP Comics member can fix this apparent mass vandalism. -
Dravecky 07:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Update: All apologies. I missed the discussion entirely and just happened upon one edit which led me to your edit list and questions for which I did not have answers. Also, my word choice at 2am is apparently not optimal. - Dravecky 08:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Asgardian 08:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Template:Real world chronology now exists to tag articles that need to be more explicit about when things happened in the real world. This is to reflect a new development in our editorial guidelines that says that real-world context for events in comics needs to be established - creators, publication dates, etc.
Virtually none of our articles are compliant with this at the moment, so by all means, get tagging. :) Phil Sandifer 19:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
A subject for debate (may even be indirectly related to some issues currently circulating above) which I think has some influence on how comics articles are approached, is the subject of whether a body of work takes presedence over a (usually eponymous) character featured in that work. This certainly affects the article's naming, but also how the material is presented and shapes the content. There are probably too many anomalies to be general about this, but as it is, WP:CMC articles could use a pull in a singular direction.
In many WP articles about fiction there's no doubt that a body of work is the starting point, and from this character articles can spring, sometimes from sections that outgrow the parent article, or directly if the character is "big" enough. There are also enough examples of characters that define series of works, even without being a series' "formal" name, and the article creations may spring in reverse, but the issue comes up when the two share a name. What is the ideal approach? What is encyclopedic? What decides if a "main" article is X-Men, the article about the characters, and not The X-Men about the comic book series? Maybe a poorly chosen example, but what about The Spirit vs Spirit (comics), a solitary article? Why is it different from Dick Tracy? Should Hogan's Alley be a redirect to The Yellow Kid? It would be nice to have an project consensus statement about this, and it not be down to random preference. Or please tell me if there's a highly relevant line in the MoS I missed? MURGH disc. 01:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Funny how I came here to mention something about alternate versions and found a discussion about it already going. I have proposed a merge of Bloodstorm (comics) into Alternate versions of Storm, and the discussion is here. Someone has to give their input besides me. -- Freak104 04:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The article Power Boy is basically a plot summary of 5 issues of Supergirl. I think it needs to be extensively cut down, but I don't know how to start without just mass reverting the previous edits of User:Powergirl. -- William Graham talk 05:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
What do we do with Ethnic stereotypes in comics? Hiding T 14:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Going through these articles has really made me conscious of how many trivial alternate versions get mentioned in the characters' articles. We need to discuss notability standards for their inclusion, or else the articles will expand ridiculously. Should every potential future version of a character be mentioned? Does an appearance among hundreds of characters in the background of an Elseworlds story get mentioned? Really? Seriously consider how wildly the articles will swell once people start mentioning every What If? appearance. Doczilla 08:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Asgardian 08:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I think a lot of this could be solved if we required that AV sections not be lists or functional lists. These sections should not be a checklist of other versions - they should cover the ways in which the characters have been adapted and expanded. That is best done narratively and with details, rather than in an exhaustive list. Phil Sandifer 18:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
OK. So why don't we add a note to the effect of "Alternate versions sections should not be formatted as a list, and should not include elements that cannot be expanded on and commented upon with out-of-universe information" to our MoS. Everybody seems to like that OK. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 19:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
As said above, as long as the character does more than sitting in the background, then aren't the mentions valid? Antiyonder ( talk) 11:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
There is a minor edit war going on regarding Power Girl's appearance in the fan film Power Girl: The Classifieds and whether this, as her first appearance in film or other media, is notable. Does anyone have a reference to whether or not this is worth mentioning? Some say it is while one editor considers fan films to be equivalent to "masturbation": The Discussion So Far. - AdamBMorgan ( talk) 13:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Since the material is getting put back in, and in some cases reffing other articles, was anyone setting up the compacting on these? - J Greb ( talk) 18:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Two people said no. One person appeared to believe in a disagree, but did not state so. That's not a consensus. And I was not trying to bring the survey back, only to point out that I agree with the person above. And the real question is, are the other policies preventing the best articles? It's not a matter of policies vs IGNORE, when IGNORE is the ultimate policy. And WP:OBVIOUS states that we should state something that is obvious to us, but may not be to everyone else. Anakinjmt ( talk) 04:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
(retab) Wait...what? I'm talking about listing, for example in Superman's AV area Super Soldier, and that he was combined with Captain America. Anakinjmt ( talk) 00:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The template {{ comicscene}} was deleted back in August without any discussion, as near as I can tell. I don't know that we need to recreate it because, presumably, we could use one template to cover all three fair use situations (a comic book cover, a single panel, and multiple panels). However, I thought that I should bring this up before removing the template from the WikiProject Comics Copyright page. -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 23:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Looking into this further, it appears that all three situations are indeed covered by the newer template {{ Non-free comic}}. So perhaps we need to update the Copyright page. -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 23:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I hadn't realized, but a bot had actually replaced the examples of WikiProject Comics fair use templates on the Copyright page with {{ non-free comic}}. So, I went ahead and updated the text to reflect this change (and so that it won't confuse anyone). -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 00:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay, but we need a separate discussion of what to do when editing those things. Doczilla ( talk) 06:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
List of alternate version types:
- Arcayne (cast a spell) 08:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
J. Greb suggested the following guideline language above: The goal of the alternate versions section is that it be formatted in prose and with real world context, not as a list. Efforts should be made to convert instances where the section is in a list format into prose, retaining and fleshing out the information already included. Elements that either cannot be fleshed out, or are solely in-universe items may be removed in this conversion. This does not bar such elements from being added back, but such reintroductions should fall with in the preferred style for the section.
I like this very much, and I think it gives a lot of guidance on what to include and how to describe it - the requirement that you be able to do more than create a list is a good and informative one. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 15:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you Phil that Dark Claw isn't important to understanding Wolverine as a cultural icon. The popularity of Hugh Jackson's Wolverine portrayal, as well as the Wolverine spin-off seems to fit that. I do however think that Amalgam should be noted on the pages (like the example I've used countless times, Superman's article and Captain America's article would state how they were combined with the other to form Super Soldier), because Amalgam was a pretty big deal in the comics. Anakinjmt ( talk) 17:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Two things...
First, I'm not sure how this is targeting specifically the Amalgam stuff.
Second, I can see the use of "staging" the removal. I'd almost go to commenting out and note on the talk, hold off for a reasonable time, then move it to the talk under the note. -
J Greb (
talk) 01:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I think a fairly important par t of the argument has been missed here. Why was Wolverine chosen to be er, amalgam-zied? Because he was popular enough with folk that seeing him merged with another character was notable and of interest. Why weren't Atom, or Zan and Jayna the Wonder Twins? Because they weren't. The fact tat they were seen fit to be Amalgam'd (and folks, that whirring sound you hear is my grammar teacher Mrs. Uphoff spinning in her grave like a redlining turbine) makes them noteworthy and interesting. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I really don't want to do for the next week or so because I have final exams to give and grades to figure, but we're bouncing all over this talk page with Amalgam/alternate versions discussions. There are too many points that need to be discussed for us to do this quite so haphazardly. While we want to make sure everyone can find the discussion and new people can easiliy keep getting involved, we've got to set up a page where we can discuss possible guidelines for dealing with alternate versions. We can set up something here to direct people to it, but this has taken over the WikiProject Comics talk page. I have started a list at User:Doczilla/Sandbox/Alternate_version_guideline_issues. Feel free to edit it. We could start discussing issues on a talk page for that list, or if you don't want to play in my sandbox, I'll play in yours, but this is a mess. Doczilla ( talk) 10:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
It might help for us to list how many different kinds of alternate versions we're talking about. Feel free to add to these lists. Doczilla ( talk) 05:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
List of alternate version types:
Prominence of alternate version within its source:
Importance of the source:
Personally I think an "other media" appearance generally doesn't belong under "alternate versions", but there are plenty of instances in which editors have put them there. Doczilla ( talk) 05:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
(←dedent)
Just some loose change...
I agree with the premise that "In other media" is a different critter than any comics appearances. Adaptations of the characters to film, television, radio, stage, prose, or games may retain a great deal of the original characterizations, but such a section is more about how the character has been notably reused within pop culture. Yes, this will likely include how the adaptations differed from the original, but that isn't the be-all and end-all of the section. As a side note, this also needs to address licensed and non-licensed material. There's been a dust-up on Talk: Power Girl regarding fan films and their inclusion in IOM sections.
Legacy/Namesake characters: For the most part the articles have been used to create an umbrella with each separate character potentially getting a separate article. Such umbrella pages have had the list of "Namesakes" before the "Alternate version" section. This has made a fair amount of sense, even with articles for the various Squadron Supreme characters or Huntress (comics). In these cases the characters are relatively well used even though some of them exist in different continuities. The implied premise being that the AV section is for the one off type characters.
Alternate timeline and "From the future" appearances: This is a really mixed bag. There are a few cases, such as Vance Astro and Vance Astrovik, where the characters are more than a one story quirk. But the majority treat the character as a one off story element. They are "Alternate versions", but few really are notable on their own. Then there are cases like what's obliquely pointed to with Bart Allen where him meeting different future versions of himself became a repeating story motif.
The bulk of the list, "What if...?" scenarios, parallel worlds, and dream sequences, are to my mind, along with the alternate timeline, the "Alternate versions". The publisher takes the concept and tweaks it slightly. Generally though it's billed in some way to refer to the base concept, along the lines of "What if someone other than Peter Parker had become Spider-Man" or Superman: Speeding Bullets with a Batman logo. There are some, like the Ultimate universe characters, where we've been banging heads for a long time about AV, separate sections, or separate article.
That leaves parodies, homages/pastiches, and "mash-ups"... Parodies I can see in the AV, Spider-Ham was Marvel doing it's own send up of Spider-Man but has also treated it as an alternate reality. But I can also see it with the other two in a "In comics by other publishers" section. I honestly feel these are different than what should be in the AV. Midnighter and Nighthawk are not Batman. Both characters were created using Batman, as published at the time, as a reference point, but they are their own characters. And Super-Soldier is a composite of some elements of Superman and Captain America relying on the work of both publishers. The character isn't and AV of either and it isn't quite an homage to them either. It's its own thing.
Prominence/notability of the character and importance of the original publication are helpful in determining what goes in, but they can be a bit mutable. The Ultimate Spider-Man and Miller's Dark Knight are both important AVs, but Wayne or Parker cameoing in a panel really isn't. Some of this will also comes from secondary sources. The Amalgams that started this are a good example of this. A lot of the characters we have to guess at, or use less than reliable sources to say which elements came from which characters. For things like that, or for saying a character was created as an homage or spoof of another character, we need a cite that that is indeed the case.
Structure and splitting: Old and new here... The new is in conjunction with what Phil re-posted below. I agree with his contention that the "Alternate versions", and by extension the "In other media" and "In other publisher's comics", section should be moving towards prose with real world context. The old, we really shouldn't be cleaving articles really do become massive. IIRC, the "danger point" is around 50k but I think a lot of article have had bold splits done well below that, resulting in some skimpy articles. What does that have to do with the AV articles? A fair bit. There are a lot of article that should, IIUC about the fiction MoS, be folded into character lists, series articles, event articles, or back into main articles.
- J Greb ( talk) 03:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I know that there have been discussions before about whether or not to have categories made up of individual characters, such as Supporting Characters of Foo or Members of Foo. As I recall, the consensus was that individual characters should be added to lists, not categories. With that in mind, I wanted to see what people thought about the current categories Category:Jack Kirby's Fourth World and Category:New Gods of Apokolips. As J Greb ( talk · contribs) pointed out to me, the characters in these categories are technically members of a unique race, not members of a club. So, is it therefore OK to have individual character articles in these categories? It seems logical to me that if there shouldn't be individual character articles in Category:Legion of Super-Heroes, then then there shouldn't be individual character articles in Category:Jack Kirby's Fourth World. That said, I don't have any ingrained preference one way or the other; I'm just trying to be consistent in my actions. -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 20:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Over the past weeks, I've removed Amalgam mentions from over 900 articles, mostly for lack of sources regarding (1) whether the characters ever appeared at all and (2) which characters were actually merged. Only a tiny number of those mentions are left in the regular DC/Marvel characters' articles. The Amalgam characters still have a LOT of articles. For consistency with what's been getting implemented for the last month, I think I need to remove those last few mentions. As we've said, we can backfill and put appropriate information in later if that's deemed fitting. Leaving a handful of the old mentions just lowers the odds of ever getting a better worded version and simply isn't consistent with what's been implemented over the last month. Someone reverted them, feeling I shouldn't do that while this new discussion is ongoing. We exchanged a couple of thoughts on it. We're both just trying to do what's right for this situation. We just need outside opinions regarding whether or not I should make those last few deletions. I will not revert war with anyone. Please advise. Doczilla ( talk) 08:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Asgardian ( talk) 17:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm just wondering what are we planning to do with this article. Technically, there is no more MVP as he has already died though the article talks as if he is alive and well. However, that could be as the article seems to follow off on the life of his clone who was send home to replace him and live with his parents.
Then of course with have his other clones the Scarlet Spiders: Michael, Van, and Patrick (M.V.P).
I was kinda thinking that maybe we should try to redo the whole article from scratch to follow the life of MVP and his subsequent clones collectively as they are always going to be interlinked. Or, would you guys prefer that we keep them all separate?.. either way the article needs a complete overhaul and i just think putting them together is the only way we will make the article something more than stub class. Your thoughts?? --- Paulley ( talk) 23:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
A user user:69.253.219.39 has been adding newkadia as an external link to a bunch of comics articles ( Avengers (comics), Hulk (comics), Iron Man, and I've been reverting. The user was notified back in July not to do it. Am I right in reverting the edits? joshschr ( talk) 16:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm been a major contributor to the Barbara Gordon article and I wanted to add critical commentary to the Killing Joke section of the Publication History.
The issue is that the information is in the form of a blog. While I realize blogs are typically avoided at all costs, the information posted directly reflects the controversy surrounding the character's use in the book and restoring her mobility.
ANTI-KILLING JOKE:
PRO-KILLING JOKE:
Both arguments (presented by the two bloggers) as well as several other points of view have been documented at Newsararma: Variations on a Theme, which could be used to cite any additions to the Barbara Gordon article, since its a third party source.
Please review the information carefully before coming to a consensus. I believe this information is vitally important to the Barbara Gordon article. Bookkeeperoftheoccult ( talk) 09:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Star Wars: Republic: there seems to be an article for just about EVERY issue and/or storyline of the series. Category:Star Wars comics also seems to hold a bit of this issue clutter. Wikipedia shouldn't be a guide to every issue of a series. I brought this up a while ago here (and mentioned it to the creator of the articles), however not much seems to have been done. RobJ1981 ( talk) 21:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Since Cho isn't usually referred to as Mastermind Excello, and the original Excello is returning in the Twelve, should Cho get his own article? -- DrBat ( talk) 01:51, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I just wondered if we have a power-level description page on wikipedia?.. because in many comics (especially Marvel) we often hear people claimed to be "omega-level this" and have "class power rating of that". I know there is an Omega-level mutant article but is there anything a bit broader? --- Paulley ( talk) 17:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I was bold and redirected to Mutant (Marvel Comics). There's no real-world notability about the topic. WesleyDodds ( talk) 08:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I proposed a merge of Jigsaw 2099 into Jigsaw (Marvel Comics). I see no reason why they should be separate articles. - Freak104 ( talk) 03:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok. Freak104 ( talk) 19:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know much about the site (found here: [5]), however it resembles a fan site to me. As I've went through many Marvel stubs, I see many with only that site as a source. Some examples: Damocles Foundation, Anubis (Marvel Comics) and Grindhouse (comics). Personally, we need to start going through the stubs and sifting through the clutter and non-notable brief characters. Just because it's at the Marvel Appendix, doesn't mean it's automatically notable for this site. I'm not personally blaming anyone for this, however it does seem a bit odd there is so many that are sourced only by that site. RobJ1981 ( talk) 19:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
No-Name, the Brood member of the Warbound, has been referred to as No-Name and No-Name of the Brood. What should her article name be? -- DrBat ( talk) 14:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
The proposed merge is to move the Storm section of Bloodstorm (comics) to Alternate versions of Storm. This seems to have been debated for a while and any added opinion would be helpful. See discussion here Talk:Alternate versions of Storm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.182.199.231 ( talk) 06:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | → | Archive 35 |
I'm curious about the action over on Bill Sienkiewicz, and the single article IP editor who has removed the featured image [1] and removed the permission tag on the image itself, with the presumed authority of being one who may do so. [2] Are there presedences to this? Should this IP at least have to log into the uploader's account before retracting his WP contribution? Is there something to be ..done? MURGH disc. 00:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
What gives with
Doczilla removing every mention of the Amalgam Comics versions of characters from several dozen comics articles? I don't see any discussion of this and he coyly has each edit described as "clean up". Did I miss the discussion? I bring this to your attention in hopes some dedicated WP Comics member can fix this apparent mass vandalism. -
Dravecky 07:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Update: All apologies. I missed the discussion entirely and just happened upon one edit which led me to your edit list and questions for which I did not have answers. Also, my word choice at 2am is apparently not optimal. - Dravecky 08:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Asgardian 08:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Template:Real world chronology now exists to tag articles that need to be more explicit about when things happened in the real world. This is to reflect a new development in our editorial guidelines that says that real-world context for events in comics needs to be established - creators, publication dates, etc.
Virtually none of our articles are compliant with this at the moment, so by all means, get tagging. :) Phil Sandifer 19:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
A subject for debate (may even be indirectly related to some issues currently circulating above) which I think has some influence on how comics articles are approached, is the subject of whether a body of work takes presedence over a (usually eponymous) character featured in that work. This certainly affects the article's naming, but also how the material is presented and shapes the content. There are probably too many anomalies to be general about this, but as it is, WP:CMC articles could use a pull in a singular direction.
In many WP articles about fiction there's no doubt that a body of work is the starting point, and from this character articles can spring, sometimes from sections that outgrow the parent article, or directly if the character is "big" enough. There are also enough examples of characters that define series of works, even without being a series' "formal" name, and the article creations may spring in reverse, but the issue comes up when the two share a name. What is the ideal approach? What is encyclopedic? What decides if a "main" article is X-Men, the article about the characters, and not The X-Men about the comic book series? Maybe a poorly chosen example, but what about The Spirit vs Spirit (comics), a solitary article? Why is it different from Dick Tracy? Should Hogan's Alley be a redirect to The Yellow Kid? It would be nice to have an project consensus statement about this, and it not be down to random preference. Or please tell me if there's a highly relevant line in the MoS I missed? MURGH disc. 01:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Funny how I came here to mention something about alternate versions and found a discussion about it already going. I have proposed a merge of Bloodstorm (comics) into Alternate versions of Storm, and the discussion is here. Someone has to give their input besides me. -- Freak104 04:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The article Power Boy is basically a plot summary of 5 issues of Supergirl. I think it needs to be extensively cut down, but I don't know how to start without just mass reverting the previous edits of User:Powergirl. -- William Graham talk 05:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
What do we do with Ethnic stereotypes in comics? Hiding T 14:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Going through these articles has really made me conscious of how many trivial alternate versions get mentioned in the characters' articles. We need to discuss notability standards for their inclusion, or else the articles will expand ridiculously. Should every potential future version of a character be mentioned? Does an appearance among hundreds of characters in the background of an Elseworlds story get mentioned? Really? Seriously consider how wildly the articles will swell once people start mentioning every What If? appearance. Doczilla 08:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Asgardian 08:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I think a lot of this could be solved if we required that AV sections not be lists or functional lists. These sections should not be a checklist of other versions - they should cover the ways in which the characters have been adapted and expanded. That is best done narratively and with details, rather than in an exhaustive list. Phil Sandifer 18:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
OK. So why don't we add a note to the effect of "Alternate versions sections should not be formatted as a list, and should not include elements that cannot be expanded on and commented upon with out-of-universe information" to our MoS. Everybody seems to like that OK. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 19:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
As said above, as long as the character does more than sitting in the background, then aren't the mentions valid? Antiyonder ( talk) 11:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
There is a minor edit war going on regarding Power Girl's appearance in the fan film Power Girl: The Classifieds and whether this, as her first appearance in film or other media, is notable. Does anyone have a reference to whether or not this is worth mentioning? Some say it is while one editor considers fan films to be equivalent to "masturbation": The Discussion So Far. - AdamBMorgan ( talk) 13:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Since the material is getting put back in, and in some cases reffing other articles, was anyone setting up the compacting on these? - J Greb ( talk) 18:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Two people said no. One person appeared to believe in a disagree, but did not state so. That's not a consensus. And I was not trying to bring the survey back, only to point out that I agree with the person above. And the real question is, are the other policies preventing the best articles? It's not a matter of policies vs IGNORE, when IGNORE is the ultimate policy. And WP:OBVIOUS states that we should state something that is obvious to us, but may not be to everyone else. Anakinjmt ( talk) 04:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
(retab) Wait...what? I'm talking about listing, for example in Superman's AV area Super Soldier, and that he was combined with Captain America. Anakinjmt ( talk) 00:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The template {{ comicscene}} was deleted back in August without any discussion, as near as I can tell. I don't know that we need to recreate it because, presumably, we could use one template to cover all three fair use situations (a comic book cover, a single panel, and multiple panels). However, I thought that I should bring this up before removing the template from the WikiProject Comics Copyright page. -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 23:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Looking into this further, it appears that all three situations are indeed covered by the newer template {{ Non-free comic}}. So perhaps we need to update the Copyright page. -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 23:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I hadn't realized, but a bot had actually replaced the examples of WikiProject Comics fair use templates on the Copyright page with {{ non-free comic}}. So, I went ahead and updated the text to reflect this change (and so that it won't confuse anyone). -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 00:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay, but we need a separate discussion of what to do when editing those things. Doczilla ( talk) 06:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
List of alternate version types:
- Arcayne (cast a spell) 08:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
J. Greb suggested the following guideline language above: The goal of the alternate versions section is that it be formatted in prose and with real world context, not as a list. Efforts should be made to convert instances where the section is in a list format into prose, retaining and fleshing out the information already included. Elements that either cannot be fleshed out, or are solely in-universe items may be removed in this conversion. This does not bar such elements from being added back, but such reintroductions should fall with in the preferred style for the section.
I like this very much, and I think it gives a lot of guidance on what to include and how to describe it - the requirement that you be able to do more than create a list is a good and informative one. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 15:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you Phil that Dark Claw isn't important to understanding Wolverine as a cultural icon. The popularity of Hugh Jackson's Wolverine portrayal, as well as the Wolverine spin-off seems to fit that. I do however think that Amalgam should be noted on the pages (like the example I've used countless times, Superman's article and Captain America's article would state how they were combined with the other to form Super Soldier), because Amalgam was a pretty big deal in the comics. Anakinjmt ( talk) 17:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Two things...
First, I'm not sure how this is targeting specifically the Amalgam stuff.
Second, I can see the use of "staging" the removal. I'd almost go to commenting out and note on the talk, hold off for a reasonable time, then move it to the talk under the note. -
J Greb (
talk) 01:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I think a fairly important par t of the argument has been missed here. Why was Wolverine chosen to be er, amalgam-zied? Because he was popular enough with folk that seeing him merged with another character was notable and of interest. Why weren't Atom, or Zan and Jayna the Wonder Twins? Because they weren't. The fact tat they were seen fit to be Amalgam'd (and folks, that whirring sound you hear is my grammar teacher Mrs. Uphoff spinning in her grave like a redlining turbine) makes them noteworthy and interesting. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I really don't want to do for the next week or so because I have final exams to give and grades to figure, but we're bouncing all over this talk page with Amalgam/alternate versions discussions. There are too many points that need to be discussed for us to do this quite so haphazardly. While we want to make sure everyone can find the discussion and new people can easiliy keep getting involved, we've got to set up a page where we can discuss possible guidelines for dealing with alternate versions. We can set up something here to direct people to it, but this has taken over the WikiProject Comics talk page. I have started a list at User:Doczilla/Sandbox/Alternate_version_guideline_issues. Feel free to edit it. We could start discussing issues on a talk page for that list, or if you don't want to play in my sandbox, I'll play in yours, but this is a mess. Doczilla ( talk) 10:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
It might help for us to list how many different kinds of alternate versions we're talking about. Feel free to add to these lists. Doczilla ( talk) 05:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
List of alternate version types:
Prominence of alternate version within its source:
Importance of the source:
Personally I think an "other media" appearance generally doesn't belong under "alternate versions", but there are plenty of instances in which editors have put them there. Doczilla ( talk) 05:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
(←dedent)
Just some loose change...
I agree with the premise that "In other media" is a different critter than any comics appearances. Adaptations of the characters to film, television, radio, stage, prose, or games may retain a great deal of the original characterizations, but such a section is more about how the character has been notably reused within pop culture. Yes, this will likely include how the adaptations differed from the original, but that isn't the be-all and end-all of the section. As a side note, this also needs to address licensed and non-licensed material. There's been a dust-up on Talk: Power Girl regarding fan films and their inclusion in IOM sections.
Legacy/Namesake characters: For the most part the articles have been used to create an umbrella with each separate character potentially getting a separate article. Such umbrella pages have had the list of "Namesakes" before the "Alternate version" section. This has made a fair amount of sense, even with articles for the various Squadron Supreme characters or Huntress (comics). In these cases the characters are relatively well used even though some of them exist in different continuities. The implied premise being that the AV section is for the one off type characters.
Alternate timeline and "From the future" appearances: This is a really mixed bag. There are a few cases, such as Vance Astro and Vance Astrovik, where the characters are more than a one story quirk. But the majority treat the character as a one off story element. They are "Alternate versions", but few really are notable on their own. Then there are cases like what's obliquely pointed to with Bart Allen where him meeting different future versions of himself became a repeating story motif.
The bulk of the list, "What if...?" scenarios, parallel worlds, and dream sequences, are to my mind, along with the alternate timeline, the "Alternate versions". The publisher takes the concept and tweaks it slightly. Generally though it's billed in some way to refer to the base concept, along the lines of "What if someone other than Peter Parker had become Spider-Man" or Superman: Speeding Bullets with a Batman logo. There are some, like the Ultimate universe characters, where we've been banging heads for a long time about AV, separate sections, or separate article.
That leaves parodies, homages/pastiches, and "mash-ups"... Parodies I can see in the AV, Spider-Ham was Marvel doing it's own send up of Spider-Man but has also treated it as an alternate reality. But I can also see it with the other two in a "In comics by other publishers" section. I honestly feel these are different than what should be in the AV. Midnighter and Nighthawk are not Batman. Both characters were created using Batman, as published at the time, as a reference point, but they are their own characters. And Super-Soldier is a composite of some elements of Superman and Captain America relying on the work of both publishers. The character isn't and AV of either and it isn't quite an homage to them either. It's its own thing.
Prominence/notability of the character and importance of the original publication are helpful in determining what goes in, but they can be a bit mutable. The Ultimate Spider-Man and Miller's Dark Knight are both important AVs, but Wayne or Parker cameoing in a panel really isn't. Some of this will also comes from secondary sources. The Amalgams that started this are a good example of this. A lot of the characters we have to guess at, or use less than reliable sources to say which elements came from which characters. For things like that, or for saying a character was created as an homage or spoof of another character, we need a cite that that is indeed the case.
Structure and splitting: Old and new here... The new is in conjunction with what Phil re-posted below. I agree with his contention that the "Alternate versions", and by extension the "In other media" and "In other publisher's comics", section should be moving towards prose with real world context. The old, we really shouldn't be cleaving articles really do become massive. IIRC, the "danger point" is around 50k but I think a lot of article have had bold splits done well below that, resulting in some skimpy articles. What does that have to do with the AV articles? A fair bit. There are a lot of article that should, IIUC about the fiction MoS, be folded into character lists, series articles, event articles, or back into main articles.
- J Greb ( talk) 03:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I know that there have been discussions before about whether or not to have categories made up of individual characters, such as Supporting Characters of Foo or Members of Foo. As I recall, the consensus was that individual characters should be added to lists, not categories. With that in mind, I wanted to see what people thought about the current categories Category:Jack Kirby's Fourth World and Category:New Gods of Apokolips. As J Greb ( talk · contribs) pointed out to me, the characters in these categories are technically members of a unique race, not members of a club. So, is it therefore OK to have individual character articles in these categories? It seems logical to me that if there shouldn't be individual character articles in Category:Legion of Super-Heroes, then then there shouldn't be individual character articles in Category:Jack Kirby's Fourth World. That said, I don't have any ingrained preference one way or the other; I'm just trying to be consistent in my actions. -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 20:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Over the past weeks, I've removed Amalgam mentions from over 900 articles, mostly for lack of sources regarding (1) whether the characters ever appeared at all and (2) which characters were actually merged. Only a tiny number of those mentions are left in the regular DC/Marvel characters' articles. The Amalgam characters still have a LOT of articles. For consistency with what's been getting implemented for the last month, I think I need to remove those last few mentions. As we've said, we can backfill and put appropriate information in later if that's deemed fitting. Leaving a handful of the old mentions just lowers the odds of ever getting a better worded version and simply isn't consistent with what's been implemented over the last month. Someone reverted them, feeling I shouldn't do that while this new discussion is ongoing. We exchanged a couple of thoughts on it. We're both just trying to do what's right for this situation. We just need outside opinions regarding whether or not I should make those last few deletions. I will not revert war with anyone. Please advise. Doczilla ( talk) 08:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Asgardian ( talk) 17:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm just wondering what are we planning to do with this article. Technically, there is no more MVP as he has already died though the article talks as if he is alive and well. However, that could be as the article seems to follow off on the life of his clone who was send home to replace him and live with his parents.
Then of course with have his other clones the Scarlet Spiders: Michael, Van, and Patrick (M.V.P).
I was kinda thinking that maybe we should try to redo the whole article from scratch to follow the life of MVP and his subsequent clones collectively as they are always going to be interlinked. Or, would you guys prefer that we keep them all separate?.. either way the article needs a complete overhaul and i just think putting them together is the only way we will make the article something more than stub class. Your thoughts?? --- Paulley ( talk) 23:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
A user user:69.253.219.39 has been adding newkadia as an external link to a bunch of comics articles ( Avengers (comics), Hulk (comics), Iron Man, and I've been reverting. The user was notified back in July not to do it. Am I right in reverting the edits? joshschr ( talk) 16:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm been a major contributor to the Barbara Gordon article and I wanted to add critical commentary to the Killing Joke section of the Publication History.
The issue is that the information is in the form of a blog. While I realize blogs are typically avoided at all costs, the information posted directly reflects the controversy surrounding the character's use in the book and restoring her mobility.
ANTI-KILLING JOKE:
PRO-KILLING JOKE:
Both arguments (presented by the two bloggers) as well as several other points of view have been documented at Newsararma: Variations on a Theme, which could be used to cite any additions to the Barbara Gordon article, since its a third party source.
Please review the information carefully before coming to a consensus. I believe this information is vitally important to the Barbara Gordon article. Bookkeeperoftheoccult ( talk) 09:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Star Wars: Republic: there seems to be an article for just about EVERY issue and/or storyline of the series. Category:Star Wars comics also seems to hold a bit of this issue clutter. Wikipedia shouldn't be a guide to every issue of a series. I brought this up a while ago here (and mentioned it to the creator of the articles), however not much seems to have been done. RobJ1981 ( talk) 21:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Since Cho isn't usually referred to as Mastermind Excello, and the original Excello is returning in the Twelve, should Cho get his own article? -- DrBat ( talk) 01:51, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I just wondered if we have a power-level description page on wikipedia?.. because in many comics (especially Marvel) we often hear people claimed to be "omega-level this" and have "class power rating of that". I know there is an Omega-level mutant article but is there anything a bit broader? --- Paulley ( talk) 17:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I was bold and redirected to Mutant (Marvel Comics). There's no real-world notability about the topic. WesleyDodds ( talk) 08:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I proposed a merge of Jigsaw 2099 into Jigsaw (Marvel Comics). I see no reason why they should be separate articles. - Freak104 ( talk) 03:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok. Freak104 ( talk) 19:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know much about the site (found here: [5]), however it resembles a fan site to me. As I've went through many Marvel stubs, I see many with only that site as a source. Some examples: Damocles Foundation, Anubis (Marvel Comics) and Grindhouse (comics). Personally, we need to start going through the stubs and sifting through the clutter and non-notable brief characters. Just because it's at the Marvel Appendix, doesn't mean it's automatically notable for this site. I'm not personally blaming anyone for this, however it does seem a bit odd there is so many that are sourced only by that site. RobJ1981 ( talk) 19:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
No-Name, the Brood member of the Warbound, has been referred to as No-Name and No-Name of the Brood. What should her article name be? -- DrBat ( talk) 14:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
The proposed merge is to move the Storm section of Bloodstorm (comics) to Alternate versions of Storm. This seems to have been debated for a while and any added opinion would be helpful. See discussion here Talk:Alternate versions of Storm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.182.199.231 ( talk) 06:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)