I think it was a mistake to merge the Wikipedia:three-revert rule into this page and would like to undo that merge. If the three-revert rule policy (3RR) had developed as this policy has developed, (incrementally), then I could see some justification for it, but the 3RR was created with wide consultation resulting in the Wikipedia:Three revert rule enforcement. I do not see that there was sufficient agreement on the talk page to claim that the consensus had changed from that initial survey that authorised 3RR.
My major problem with the merge is that as an administrator I would hesitate to make an administrative judgment based on this page if it involves the behavior of an editor who is editing a page which I too have recently edited, as it could be seen as unfair. But 3RR rule is different because apart from some very limited cases it is a procedural rule, for which no administrative judgment is needed.
I am about to warn an editor that they are in breach of restrictions placed on them by another administrator in an "Arbitration Enforcement" case. They have breached the 1 reversal a week placed upon them by reverting the edits by two different editors. I went to the 3RR page to quote the wording and was very surprised to see that it was now a redirect. As the warning is about a page that I am actively editing, I may then get involved in a dispute about administrative judgment with that editor as (s)he may argue that I am being biased, something which would not happen with the 3RR page as it is clearly a procedural page. -- PBS ( talk) 13:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Would anyone object to renaming this page to Wikipedia:Edit warring? So the title more clearly refers to the behavior?
FT2 ( Talk | email) 13:24, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Update - should it be Wikipedia:No edit warring, in line with other undesirable conduct (eg, Please do not bite the newcomers and No original research)?
FT2 ( Talk | email) 11:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
A request for comment at WP:Civil also has relevance for WP:EW, namely abuse of the one-line Edit Summary could be construed as a an element of edit warring. Please take a look and comment. Brews ohare ( talk) 22:24, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
It has been reasonably pointed out that the wording on BLP versus on 3RR does not match. I tried to change it there to match here but got reverted [1]. In general I think most people agree that 3RR applies to content disputes on the articles which are BLPs but perhaps not to personal info, defamation etc. Most BLP articles have plenty of material which is not itself strictly BLP. This policy is worded in the fashion I just described but the BLP one more or less implies as written that any content on a BLP article is exempted and 3RR does not apply to any content whatsoever on a BLP article to which any good faith editor objects (i.e. no content in a BLP article is subject to 3RR). Anyone else agree with this analysis? -- BozMo talk 19:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure that the author of the three-revert rule would like to flatter himself into thinking it is a bright line (after all, who doesn't think their own creations are the best thing since sliced bread) but it appears to me that Wikipedia is merely calling it a bright line, so that, if someone does try to loophole their way around it, the Wikipedia staff can just say "Dude, there's no wiggle room here; you're flat out wrong," when, in fact, I can prove (emphasis on that last word) that the three-revert rule is quite a fine line, by pointing out at least TWO ambiguities in the rule.
1. If two people do a total of three reverts on each other (example, A makes an edit, B reverts it, A reverts it back, and B reverts it a third time), is that a breach of the 3RR? 2. Is the first edit that would, later, get reverted, considered the first step in the 3RR? For example, if A makes and edit, is that revert #1? So, if B reverts it, is that revert #2, and if A reverts it back, that's revert #3?
As you can see, calling this a "bright line rule" is merely self-flattering appraisal. Just because the author of a rule claims it to be a bright-line doesn't actually make it a bright line. 75.88.53.84 ( talk) 13:40, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't the three-revert rule be called the four-revert rule? The current name sounds like it's three strikes and you're out. Four-revert rule would make more sense because four-reverts are a no-no. It's four strikes and you're out. 128.104.truth ( talk) 17:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the name, it should be "reversion" rather than "revert" in any case. "Revert" is the verb. Weedier Mickey ( talk) 11:39, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
A dispute has arisen as to what constitutes a revert [ [2]], [ [3]]. this revolves around whether or not this [ [4]] constitutes a revert. It is my understanding a revert has to be an act that undoes or reverses the actions of another edd, not an act that alters or rewords what he has written. Am I correct in this or what this a revert? Slatersteven ( talk) 18:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
I'd also be interested in more explication of what exactly constitutes a reversion. (If it has throughly been discussed in the archives, and someone has a pointer, than would be fine.) I thought the wording was clear enough, but I've seem an editor interpret it very differently than I would. I looked at the edit noted above, and I wouldn't call that a revert, although I could understand why someone might. The ones I've seen are even more puzzling. My understanding:
You might accept my reasoning, yet disagree that my analogy is valid to the following situation: this edit added material and a cite, and did not remove or contradict anything existing in the article (IMO). I'll emphasize that the substance of whether the material should be added belongs on that talk page. I'm ambivalent - the cite wasn't well-formed, so I haven't even reached an opinion whether the edit is a good one. I'm posting here simply to discern whether editing to add material is an example of a reversion. Per User:Rd232's comment two sections above, I think not, but the editor in question and others have been warned for 3RR in what I think is a misunderstanding of the definition of reversion. Is my understanding flawed?
3rr is no longer enforced, apparently - as the noticeboard is backloged for what appears to be about 15 hours at this point - and reports are mostly closed with "stale." Is it no longer an operative rule? Hipocrite ( talk) 12:16, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Responses by
FT2
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It should always have been the other way round, edit warring as the major issue, 3RR an exemplar of it. In principle that's how it was, but in practice 3RR was policy, EW was a principle that was less easily and less consistently enforced, mainly as it was subjective. As long as they were on separate pages that was easy to maintain. Merging them back needed doing, to ensure that the principle of edit warring took precedence over the one example where a hard line's drawn. But we still have a long way to go in driving home the idea that edit warring is out of fashion and unacceptable. It needs to be eradicated, as an activity and, more important in the cultural concept. People need to think "edit warring's wrong" the same way they think "making up fake cites is wrong". We are a collaborative community, but we have a way to go on learning to collaborate when the going gets tough. We need to improve this. Killing edit warring - and the poor quality but difficult-to-action behaviors like provocation, bad faith, unfounded claims, personal attacks, needling, tendentiousness, stonewalling, fillibustering, team tagging, that are used in edit wars - would be a good start. FT2 ( Talk | email) 05:08, 15 December 2009 (UTC) |
Responses by
HereToHelp
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I think that edit warring is a people problem, caused in part by the separation inherent to the Internet. If all the editors could sit around a table, in person, it would be much harder to be antagonistic and disagreeable. It comes from the inability or unwillingness to understand the other sides' arguments - yes grammarians, there are usually more than two sides. Consequently, an inflexible, automatic, and non-negotiable policy (3RR) does not facilitate the understanding that is lacking. Rather, it causes both sides to store their aggression and feel mistreated. This is especially true when blocks are handed out unequally, possibly giving one side an unfair advantage, and certainly stopping the already limited flow of information and ideas. Page protection is much better, because it allows for discussion on the talk page to continue while preserving the dignity of the editors. I support the merger of 3RR into EW because it clearly shows that three reverts is merely an indicator of edit warring only, and is not a definitive yes/no one at that. De jure, little has changed, but hopefully the new organization has helped to improve the de facto process of dispute resolution on countless talk pages. HereToHelp ( talk to me) 03:17, 17 December 2009 (UTC) |
Responses by
IronDuke
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I am wholly against the merger of EW with 3RR. In the first place, what constitutes an edit-war is way too subjective for admins with little time, and even littler interest, in looking at a half dozen complex edits mixed in with straight reversions. I also think a monolithic stance against edit-warring invites – demands – frequent scenarios wherein one good faith editor with a long-term account finds himself doing battle with armies of throwaway accounts or IP’s or, rather, not doing battle, as the throwaway accounts may war with impunity, but the editor who wishes to maintain his good name may not. The pages should be separated again, and a primer given to any admin wishing to patrol 3RR about what is and is not a reversion. IronDuke 23:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC) |
A summary of your comments on our WP:Edit warring policy will be featured in the Policy Report 8 days from now in the Signpost. If it helps, monthly changes to this page are available at WP:Update/1/Conduct policy changes, July 2009 to December 2009. All responses are welcome.
A paradox of modern democracies is that voters generally have a low opinion of national politicians, but tend to trust and re-elect their own representatives. I think the same thing goes on with policy pages ... some people who? distrust policy pages in general but like the pages that they're working on. That's the point of the weekly Policy Report, to let people look at policy pages through the eyes of the people who work on the page.
To get an idea of what kinds of questions and answers the community is interested in, see the archives of this talk page or the previous surveys at WT:SOCK#Interview for Signpost, WT:CIVILITY#Policy Report for Signpost and WT:U#Signpost Policy Report. Answering any of these questions would work: Can you summarize the page? How has the page changed this year? Did the changes involve some compromising or negotiation? Would the page work better if it were shorter (or longer)? Is this page "enforced" in some useful and consistent way? Was this page shaped more by people's reactions to day-to-day issues or by exceptional cases, for instance at ArbCom? Does the policy document reality, or present ideal goals for conduct, or something in between? Does this material contradict or overlap other policies or guidelines? - Dank ( push to talk) 21:36, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is there no exceptions for removal of talk page discussions that devolved into personal attacks and outing? That is ridiculous. Editors that are being attacked on talk pages should not have to put up with that. Miami33139 ( talk) 19:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Suggestion really - At present we have {{ uw-3rr}} but not one for edit warring as such (this one sort of covers it, but not quite). Given the recent changes in arrangements, would it make sense to create a {{ uw-editwar}} with more general wording suitable to the actual intention of the page? Orderinchaos 08:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't get this rule. Suppose two separate vandals vandalize a page, then someone reverts them both, but then a different vandal comes and vandalizes the page. What should you do? Should you break the 3RR rule and revert it back, or not revert it for fear of breaching the rule and getting blocked? -- The High Fin Sperm Whale ( Talk • Contribs) 00:16, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I was possibly thinking if we could have a four revert rule instead of a three revert rule. There are numerous reasons this would benefit the community. South Bay ( talk) 03:35, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Practical question on what constitutes edit warring and what is justified when bad faith is suspected:
I have had cases in the past where, for one reason or the other, an editor makes edits to an article that seem to me deliberately lowering the quality of an article to make a point. Obviously if it is just a single instance and the editor undoes my revert, I try to discuss rather than continuing to revert. However, there have been a couple of instances where an editor gets angry enough over this issue or that, that they begin removing wholesale text they consider biased, introducing their own original research, and making other alterations that (to me) seem to be bad faith, and regardless are blatantly setting back progress.
Obviously in such cases we can ask for mediation, blocking, etc. But the reality is that a third party is likely not familiar with the topic and, therefore, cannot quickly determine whether a given editor's changes are in bad faith, or even wrong. In a couple of instances I have possibly violated the 3RR in order to stop what I considered vandalism (but again, to judge that was a matter of actually understanding the subject).
Any guidance on what the best way to handle these situations is? Specifically, any advice on how to determine the line for "vandalism" be drawn?
Thanks.
-- Mcorazao ( talk) 00:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
The 3RR rules says a revert is an action involving reverting. But it does not specify what reverting actually is and when it begins, and I suspect many an administrator does not really know, either.
1st case: The actions of A and B are both within a 24-hour period. Who violates first the 3RR rule?
2nd case: The first action by B was done some time back, the other actions of A and B are within a 24-hour period. Who violates first the 3RR rule?
3rd case: Who violates first the 3RR rule? A does not alter the text, but adds a sentence which is reverted by B. Their edits are within a 24-hour period.
Please don't tell me it's up to the personal judgment of the administrator to decide who abuses the 3RR in these cases. These are clear-cut examples for which the rule should be able provide just as clear answers. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 03:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
If the state of the article before the first edit was 000, then Kotinski and Shirik above are correct. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 17:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I redirected Edit war because someone redirected it to something else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.188.47.185 ( talk) 21:58, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
WP:3RR lists removal of Libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced controversial material which violates the policy on biographies of living persons (BLP). as an exception to 3RR. I'm currently having problems with an edit war on an article involving an organization. Consensus seems to be that WP:BLP does not apply to organizations, however WP:V states Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living persons or organizations, and do not move it to the talk page. Thus an editor can put unsourced or poorly sourced material damaging an organization into an article on that organization 3 times and it cannot be removed under WP:3RR. This would seem to be inconsistent. -- Insider201283 ( talk) 13:51, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I posted this a while back and have received no notification. If there is no objection I suggest we change from -
Removal of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material that violates Biographies of living persons (BLP). What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.
to
Removal of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material that damages the reputation of living persons or organizations. (see WP:BLP and WP:V). What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.
-- Insider201283 ( talk) 17:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
(undent) my dear single purpose account, my response was not to you, it was to Kotniski. Hipocrite ( talk) 18:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Does using the "undo" button constitute a revert in 3RR?-- Supertouch ( talk) 22:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
As I wrote there, and it is relevant here and worth repeating: The reason discussion is important is the rest of the Wikipedian community can’t sufficiently get into an editor’s mind by reading just an edit summary; particularly ones that seem to misdirect from the true nature of the edit. If an editor has a logical argument that is based on facts and are supported by current Wikipedia guidelines and policies, then let them spell out their rationale there on the talk page so the issue can be sanitized by the sunshine of public inspection.
I am rather surprised that User:Causa sui is an admin. As such, his (or her) no-doubt impressive grasp of Wikipedia guidelines should reflect well upon him if he actually engages in discussion. Greg L ( talk) 23:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I've reverted SlimVirgin's edits today which made many changes "tightening" the policy [5]. Virtually none of these changes was an actual improvement - not tightening, but removing helpful links and relevant explanation, and in some cases being less clear. It must be remembered that this page is often one of the first policy pages which newbies read properly, and it is very important that it is clearly aimed at that target audience, not at keeping things simple for those long in the tooth. Rd232 talk 09:01, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Ref "Remember that anti-vandalism tools such as Twinkle, Huggle and rollback should not be used to undo good-faithed changes in content disputes."
What is the basis for this? If a non vandalism related reversion is made using Twinkle, but the edit summary doesn't mention vandalism, and no warning/notice is put on the reverted user's talk page, what is the relevant difference between a Twinkle revert and a "regular" one. The "TW" tag? ( Hohum @) 01:38, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
While reviewing it, I noticed that it does not conform to WP:ENGVAR. For example, the first paragraph of "Administrator guidance" uses both behaviour and behavior. If there is no objection, I'll clean it up per WP:ENGVAR. I normally would not ask in advance, but I don't want to start an edit war while editing Wikipedia:Edit warring. VMS Mosaic ( talk) 23:31, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I dare say Slim has good intentions, but I really don't see what the changes made today are supposed to achieve. They seem to go back in the direction of the unclear version we had before, where it isn't made clear (unless you read down) that "revert" in the context of the three-revert rule doesn't mean what you think it does, splits the definition of "revert" into several disjoint bits, and puts the question of sanctions for edit-warring under the 3RR heading. What was the point of this?-- Kotniski ( talk) 14:47, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski | SlimVirgin |
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==Sanctions for edit warring==
Editors who engage in edit warring are liable (usually after warning) to be blocked from editing in order to prevent further disruption. While all edit warring behavior is liable to lead to such sanctions, there is a bright-line rule called the "three-revert rule" which is very often applied as a reason for blocks. This rule is set out below. The three-revert ruleThe three-revert rule ("3RR") states: A "page" means any page on Wikipedia, including talk and project space. A "revert" in the context of this rule means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part. It can involve as little as one word. A series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert. The following actions are not counted as reverts for the purposes of the three-revert rule:
If you are claiming an exemption make sure there is a clearly visible edit summary or separate section of the talk page that explains the exemption. When in doubt, do not revert. Instead, engage in dispute resolution, and in particular, ask for help at relevant noticeboards such as the Edit war/3RR noticeboard. The four or more reverts that constitute a violation of the rule may involve the same or different material each time. The rule applies per person, not per account; reverts made by multiple accounts count together. Editors violating the rule will usually be blocked for 24 hours for a first incident. Remember that an administrator may still act whenever they believe a user's behavior constitutes edit warring, and any user may report edit-warring, even if the three-revert rule has not been breached. The rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times. If an editor breaks the three-revert rule by mistake, they should reverse their own most recent reversion. Administrators may take this into account and decide not to block in such cases, for example if the user is not a habitual edit warrior and appears to be genuinely trying to rectify their own mistake. SlimVirgin talk contribs 14:53, 1 May 2010 (UTC) |
==The three-revert rule==
Editors who engage in edit warring are liable to be blocked to prevent further disruption, usually but not necessarily after a warning. While all edit warring may lead to sanctions, there is a bright-line rule called the "three-revert rule" (3RR): A "page" means any page on Wikipedia, including talk and project space. A "revert" means any edit or administrative action that reverses the actions of other editors, whether it involves reverting the whole page or just part of it (even just one word of it), or reverting the same or different material each time. A series of consecutively saved reverts by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert. Editors must not perform more than three reverts of a single page in whole or in part within a 24-hour period. Editors violating the rule will usually be blocked for 24 hours for a first incident. The rule applies per person, not per account; reverts made by multiple accounts count together. The following actions are not counted as reverts for the purposes of the three-revert rule:
If you are claiming an exemption make sure there is a clearly visible edit summary or separate section of the talk page that explains the exemption. When in doubt, do not revert. Instead, engage in dispute resolution, and in particular, ask for help at relevant noticeboards such as the Edit war/3RR noticeboard. An administrator may still act whenever they believe a user's behavior constitutes edit warring, and any user may report edit-warring, even if the three-revert rule has not been breached. The rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times. If an editor breaks the three-revert rule by mistake, they should reverse their own most recent reversion. Administrators may take this into account and decide not to block in such cases, for example if the user is not a habitual edit warrior and appears to be genuinely trying to rectify their own mistake. |
I have an issue that I need advice on from the participants on this page. An editor is engaging in edit warring, but is using as an excuse the following statement:"Reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring", and citing WP:ONEWAY as the "overriding policy".
I see where he is getting this, as on this main page it states "Reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring. For example, under the policy on biographies of living persons, where negative unsourced content is being introduced, the risk of harm is such that removal (possibly backed by administrative action) is the norm until it is fixed and policy-compliant."
"Considering ONEWAY is a guideline (and often a judgement call), and doubting whether the "risk of harm" noted above is truly in play, can WP:ONEWAY be cited as an "overriding policy", and thus as an allowable reason for edit warring? Here are a couple of examples where this excuse was used in the edit summary: [ [7]], [ [8]], and here are two attempts to discuss the matter [ [9]] and [ [10]], where the reply was... less than cordial. Any input on this would be greatly appreciated. Please let me know if this is the wrong place for this discussion. Thanks. Smatprt ( talk) 00:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm not clear on what exactly this means. If one reverts another's change, but while doing so adds new text/citations to the text reverted, in an attempt to defuse the edit war, does that count as a reversion applicable to 3RR? In my view 3RR should apply only where two or more editors are reverting while not attempting to rectify the situation through such changes. Parrot of Doom 09:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I would like to propose a separate (sub)section for Slow Edit Warring, where the edits over a matter of days or even weeks consist entirely of reverts - none of which come close to triggering 3RR because of the 24hr time definition. Since I am unable to find any policy that deals with edits that are not obvious vandalism, do not violate policies relating to civility and personal attacks, or BLP's, but are disruptive, I have no precedent on how it might be worded. I was thinking of noting again that as 3RR per 24 hr period is a bright line, and not a permit to revert that number of times per 24 hours, that 24 hours itself is an arbitrary bright line, and a sequence of reverts over an extended period may also be considered edit warring. I have recently been involved in protecting articles and warning editors in respect of such "slow" edit wars, and have noted matters discussed at ANI which would fall under that criteria, and think adding a clear subsection to this policy would help both admins in enforcing a break in the cycle and editors who misunderstand that even two such edits per 24 hours over a few or more days would also be in violation of this policy. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 21:13, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
... as I learned after being blocked for a good-faith invocation of GRAPEVINE. (Thanks to Ncmvocalist for making me aware of the problem.) I believe the synchronisation problem may have been a significant factor in the incident. Compare:
Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that [...]. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Editors who find themselves in edit wars over potentially defamatory material about living persons should bring the matter to the BLP noticeboard.
The following actions are not counted as reverts for the purposes of the three-revert rule: [...] Removal of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material that violates the policy on biographies of living persons (BLP). What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.
— WP:EW
The relevant contradiction is in context and subtleties of the formulations which encourage the following opposite interpretations:
There would be no big practical difference if BLP/N was a rapid-response noticeboard like ANI. But it currently operates at a glacial pace, and anyone reporting a BLP violation to ANI instead risks accusations of forum shopping. Hans Adler 10:39, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Until at lest the beginning of 2005, the rule was worded as follows: [12]
Don't revert any page more than three times within a period of 24 hours. |
Some time during 2005, this changed to the following: [13]
Do not revert any single page in whole or in part more than three times in 24 hours. |
As of now, this has changed to:
This is a problem, because now even well intended edits can count as violations, as I found out in this conversation.
To keep it short, I'm using a 1RR rule as an example, as was the case in the conversation. The rule as it is now, allows situations as in the following sequence (please don't worry about if the edits make any sense, it's just an example. Real life situations are more complicated):
Paradoxically, the following typical disruptive POV warring scenario is allowed according to 1RR:
This is a particularly dangerous in POV conflicts since it favors the new version, which creates instability. (Explanation: In most cases, user:B is the POV editor who changes a page that has been stable for a while. This rule makes B's version the one that will remain for at least 24 hours.) The same thing happens with 3RR, it just takes a little longer and is more disruptive.
In short, The 1RR and 3RR rules, as they are now, can easily get dedicated editors into undeserved trouble. This needs to be fixed.
One way to fix it is by getting rid of the very formalistic wording altogether. I believe that part of the gradual change was because allowing 3 reversions was too disruptive. But the solution should not have been to make it like the law of a totalitarian regime, which is so complicated and far-reaching that it can hit everyone. Instead, we should get rid of the counting altogether, and start from the current definition of "edit warring". This makes even more sense now, since this page now is primarily about edit warring and not about 3RR anymore. I propose to reword it so it becomes an actionable policy as follows:
This page in a nutshell: Don't revert a reversion. Instead, discuss. |
We already have experience with a version of that rule, which worked out well - see Wikipedia:SLR/Don't re-revert!. — Sebastian 00:30, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
I submit a modest proposal: That we consider using some verbiage other than the word "undoing" in this page to define what a revert is. I would never have thought anyone could be so literal, but apparently a relatively unfamiliar editor read this page and then was baffled, baffled! to be confronted with having violated the 3RR. Why? Because he wasn't clicking "undo" to revert. Thread here at ANI: Wikipedia:Administrators noticeboard/Incidents#Concerns about User:CUNYTruther. Maybe we could replace or supplement it with "rewriting or erasing" or some other wording, just to be crystal clear. — e. ripley\ talk 19:40, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The Three-Revert Rule (3rr) says that no more than three reverts may be made in 24 hours (with certain exceptions). I would like to add a sentence of clarification: "This means that administrators may block an editor who makes a fourth revert 24 hours and one second after the first revert, but only if the administrator cites a valid rationale (such as edit-warring) aside from the Three-Revert Rule, which does not apply." The reason I'm requesting this clarification to the policy is because editors who are not edit-warring may try very hard to follow 3rr by waiting just past 24 hours to make the fourth revert, but then be blocked for 3rr anyway. Good faith edits should not be penalized by admins who stretch 24 hours to mean more than 24 hours. Any comments? Anythingyouwant ( talk) 18:14, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Here's an alternative clarification: "Please note that you can be blocked for 3rr even if your fourth revert is more than 24 hours after your first revert, and even if you are not generally blocked for edit-warring." I prefer the first clarification that I suggested above in this talk page section, but this alternative would still vastly clarify what the 3rr rule is. I prefer the first clarification because this second clarification does not explain how to avoid 3rr, i.e. it does not tell editors what a sufficient time is between the first and fourth revert to avoid being blocked for 3rr. Nevertheless, this alternative clarification would remove the false sense of security that an editor has complied with 3rr. If there is no objection, I will install this alternative clarification into the policy. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 00:03, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
"The bottom line: use common sense, and do not participate in edit wars" (emphasis in original). Common sense suggests that nothing magical happens 1 minute after midnight, and that 4 reverts in 24:01 is not appreciably different - in substance, intent, or sanctionability - than 4 reverts in 24:00. I think the policy is amply clear that editors can be blocked for edit-warring behavior even without making 4 reverts in 24:00. It already explicitly states that intentionally "spacing out" your reverts is an aggravating factor ("calculated or egregious abuse"). If people don't get it from the policy as it stands, then they're probably beyond reach of adding another redundant reminder. MastCell Talk 00:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
At the risk of being falsely attacked again for "trying to make a point", I would like to try this one last time. I suggest inserting this: "Four reverts during a period greater than 24 hours does not violate the Three Revert Rule, though they may violate the general rule against edit-warring for other reasons." That seems incredibly straightforward. In other words, don't rely on 3rr alone to block someone if the fourth revert was more than 24 hours after the first. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 04:35, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I think it was a mistake to merge the Wikipedia:three-revert rule into this page and would like to undo that merge. If the three-revert rule policy (3RR) had developed as this policy has developed, (incrementally), then I could see some justification for it, but the 3RR was created with wide consultation resulting in the Wikipedia:Three revert rule enforcement. I do not see that there was sufficient agreement on the talk page to claim that the consensus had changed from that initial survey that authorised 3RR.
My major problem with the merge is that as an administrator I would hesitate to make an administrative judgment based on this page if it involves the behavior of an editor who is editing a page which I too have recently edited, as it could be seen as unfair. But 3RR rule is different because apart from some very limited cases it is a procedural rule, for which no administrative judgment is needed.
I am about to warn an editor that they are in breach of restrictions placed on them by another administrator in an "Arbitration Enforcement" case. They have breached the 1 reversal a week placed upon them by reverting the edits by two different editors. I went to the 3RR page to quote the wording and was very surprised to see that it was now a redirect. As the warning is about a page that I am actively editing, I may then get involved in a dispute about administrative judgment with that editor as (s)he may argue that I am being biased, something which would not happen with the 3RR page as it is clearly a procedural page. -- PBS ( talk) 13:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Would anyone object to renaming this page to Wikipedia:Edit warring? So the title more clearly refers to the behavior?
FT2 ( Talk | email) 13:24, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Update - should it be Wikipedia:No edit warring, in line with other undesirable conduct (eg, Please do not bite the newcomers and No original research)?
FT2 ( Talk | email) 11:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
A request for comment at WP:Civil also has relevance for WP:EW, namely abuse of the one-line Edit Summary could be construed as a an element of edit warring. Please take a look and comment. Brews ohare ( talk) 22:24, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
It has been reasonably pointed out that the wording on BLP versus on 3RR does not match. I tried to change it there to match here but got reverted [1]. In general I think most people agree that 3RR applies to content disputes on the articles which are BLPs but perhaps not to personal info, defamation etc. Most BLP articles have plenty of material which is not itself strictly BLP. This policy is worded in the fashion I just described but the BLP one more or less implies as written that any content on a BLP article is exempted and 3RR does not apply to any content whatsoever on a BLP article to which any good faith editor objects (i.e. no content in a BLP article is subject to 3RR). Anyone else agree with this analysis? -- BozMo talk 19:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure that the author of the three-revert rule would like to flatter himself into thinking it is a bright line (after all, who doesn't think their own creations are the best thing since sliced bread) but it appears to me that Wikipedia is merely calling it a bright line, so that, if someone does try to loophole their way around it, the Wikipedia staff can just say "Dude, there's no wiggle room here; you're flat out wrong," when, in fact, I can prove (emphasis on that last word) that the three-revert rule is quite a fine line, by pointing out at least TWO ambiguities in the rule.
1. If two people do a total of three reverts on each other (example, A makes an edit, B reverts it, A reverts it back, and B reverts it a third time), is that a breach of the 3RR? 2. Is the first edit that would, later, get reverted, considered the first step in the 3RR? For example, if A makes and edit, is that revert #1? So, if B reverts it, is that revert #2, and if A reverts it back, that's revert #3?
As you can see, calling this a "bright line rule" is merely self-flattering appraisal. Just because the author of a rule claims it to be a bright-line doesn't actually make it a bright line. 75.88.53.84 ( talk) 13:40, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't the three-revert rule be called the four-revert rule? The current name sounds like it's three strikes and you're out. Four-revert rule would make more sense because four-reverts are a no-no. It's four strikes and you're out. 128.104.truth ( talk) 17:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the name, it should be "reversion" rather than "revert" in any case. "Revert" is the verb. Weedier Mickey ( talk) 11:39, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
A dispute has arisen as to what constitutes a revert [ [2]], [ [3]]. this revolves around whether or not this [ [4]] constitutes a revert. It is my understanding a revert has to be an act that undoes or reverses the actions of another edd, not an act that alters or rewords what he has written. Am I correct in this or what this a revert? Slatersteven ( talk) 18:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
I'd also be interested in more explication of what exactly constitutes a reversion. (If it has throughly been discussed in the archives, and someone has a pointer, than would be fine.) I thought the wording was clear enough, but I've seem an editor interpret it very differently than I would. I looked at the edit noted above, and I wouldn't call that a revert, although I could understand why someone might. The ones I've seen are even more puzzling. My understanding:
You might accept my reasoning, yet disagree that my analogy is valid to the following situation: this edit added material and a cite, and did not remove or contradict anything existing in the article (IMO). I'll emphasize that the substance of whether the material should be added belongs on that talk page. I'm ambivalent - the cite wasn't well-formed, so I haven't even reached an opinion whether the edit is a good one. I'm posting here simply to discern whether editing to add material is an example of a reversion. Per User:Rd232's comment two sections above, I think not, but the editor in question and others have been warned for 3RR in what I think is a misunderstanding of the definition of reversion. Is my understanding flawed?
3rr is no longer enforced, apparently - as the noticeboard is backloged for what appears to be about 15 hours at this point - and reports are mostly closed with "stale." Is it no longer an operative rule? Hipocrite ( talk) 12:16, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Responses by
FT2
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It should always have been the other way round, edit warring as the major issue, 3RR an exemplar of it. In principle that's how it was, but in practice 3RR was policy, EW was a principle that was less easily and less consistently enforced, mainly as it was subjective. As long as they were on separate pages that was easy to maintain. Merging them back needed doing, to ensure that the principle of edit warring took precedence over the one example where a hard line's drawn. But we still have a long way to go in driving home the idea that edit warring is out of fashion and unacceptable. It needs to be eradicated, as an activity and, more important in the cultural concept. People need to think "edit warring's wrong" the same way they think "making up fake cites is wrong". We are a collaborative community, but we have a way to go on learning to collaborate when the going gets tough. We need to improve this. Killing edit warring - and the poor quality but difficult-to-action behaviors like provocation, bad faith, unfounded claims, personal attacks, needling, tendentiousness, stonewalling, fillibustering, team tagging, that are used in edit wars - would be a good start. FT2 ( Talk | email) 05:08, 15 December 2009 (UTC) |
Responses by
HereToHelp
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I think that edit warring is a people problem, caused in part by the separation inherent to the Internet. If all the editors could sit around a table, in person, it would be much harder to be antagonistic and disagreeable. It comes from the inability or unwillingness to understand the other sides' arguments - yes grammarians, there are usually more than two sides. Consequently, an inflexible, automatic, and non-negotiable policy (3RR) does not facilitate the understanding that is lacking. Rather, it causes both sides to store their aggression and feel mistreated. This is especially true when blocks are handed out unequally, possibly giving one side an unfair advantage, and certainly stopping the already limited flow of information and ideas. Page protection is much better, because it allows for discussion on the talk page to continue while preserving the dignity of the editors. I support the merger of 3RR into EW because it clearly shows that three reverts is merely an indicator of edit warring only, and is not a definitive yes/no one at that. De jure, little has changed, but hopefully the new organization has helped to improve the de facto process of dispute resolution on countless talk pages. HereToHelp ( talk to me) 03:17, 17 December 2009 (UTC) |
Responses by
IronDuke
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I am wholly against the merger of EW with 3RR. In the first place, what constitutes an edit-war is way too subjective for admins with little time, and even littler interest, in looking at a half dozen complex edits mixed in with straight reversions. I also think a monolithic stance against edit-warring invites – demands – frequent scenarios wherein one good faith editor with a long-term account finds himself doing battle with armies of throwaway accounts or IP’s or, rather, not doing battle, as the throwaway accounts may war with impunity, but the editor who wishes to maintain his good name may not. The pages should be separated again, and a primer given to any admin wishing to patrol 3RR about what is and is not a reversion. IronDuke 23:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC) |
A summary of your comments on our WP:Edit warring policy will be featured in the Policy Report 8 days from now in the Signpost. If it helps, monthly changes to this page are available at WP:Update/1/Conduct policy changes, July 2009 to December 2009. All responses are welcome.
A paradox of modern democracies is that voters generally have a low opinion of national politicians, but tend to trust and re-elect their own representatives. I think the same thing goes on with policy pages ... some people who? distrust policy pages in general but like the pages that they're working on. That's the point of the weekly Policy Report, to let people look at policy pages through the eyes of the people who work on the page.
To get an idea of what kinds of questions and answers the community is interested in, see the archives of this talk page or the previous surveys at WT:SOCK#Interview for Signpost, WT:CIVILITY#Policy Report for Signpost and WT:U#Signpost Policy Report. Answering any of these questions would work: Can you summarize the page? How has the page changed this year? Did the changes involve some compromising or negotiation? Would the page work better if it were shorter (or longer)? Is this page "enforced" in some useful and consistent way? Was this page shaped more by people's reactions to day-to-day issues or by exceptional cases, for instance at ArbCom? Does the policy document reality, or present ideal goals for conduct, or something in between? Does this material contradict or overlap other policies or guidelines? - Dank ( push to talk) 21:36, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is there no exceptions for removal of talk page discussions that devolved into personal attacks and outing? That is ridiculous. Editors that are being attacked on talk pages should not have to put up with that. Miami33139 ( talk) 19:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Suggestion really - At present we have {{ uw-3rr}} but not one for edit warring as such (this one sort of covers it, but not quite). Given the recent changes in arrangements, would it make sense to create a {{ uw-editwar}} with more general wording suitable to the actual intention of the page? Orderinchaos 08:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't get this rule. Suppose two separate vandals vandalize a page, then someone reverts them both, but then a different vandal comes and vandalizes the page. What should you do? Should you break the 3RR rule and revert it back, or not revert it for fear of breaching the rule and getting blocked? -- The High Fin Sperm Whale ( Talk • Contribs) 00:16, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I was possibly thinking if we could have a four revert rule instead of a three revert rule. There are numerous reasons this would benefit the community. South Bay ( talk) 03:35, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Practical question on what constitutes edit warring and what is justified when bad faith is suspected:
I have had cases in the past where, for one reason or the other, an editor makes edits to an article that seem to me deliberately lowering the quality of an article to make a point. Obviously if it is just a single instance and the editor undoes my revert, I try to discuss rather than continuing to revert. However, there have been a couple of instances where an editor gets angry enough over this issue or that, that they begin removing wholesale text they consider biased, introducing their own original research, and making other alterations that (to me) seem to be bad faith, and regardless are blatantly setting back progress.
Obviously in such cases we can ask for mediation, blocking, etc. But the reality is that a third party is likely not familiar with the topic and, therefore, cannot quickly determine whether a given editor's changes are in bad faith, or even wrong. In a couple of instances I have possibly violated the 3RR in order to stop what I considered vandalism (but again, to judge that was a matter of actually understanding the subject).
Any guidance on what the best way to handle these situations is? Specifically, any advice on how to determine the line for "vandalism" be drawn?
Thanks.
-- Mcorazao ( talk) 00:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
The 3RR rules says a revert is an action involving reverting. But it does not specify what reverting actually is and when it begins, and I suspect many an administrator does not really know, either.
1st case: The actions of A and B are both within a 24-hour period. Who violates first the 3RR rule?
2nd case: The first action by B was done some time back, the other actions of A and B are within a 24-hour period. Who violates first the 3RR rule?
3rd case: Who violates first the 3RR rule? A does not alter the text, but adds a sentence which is reverted by B. Their edits are within a 24-hour period.
Please don't tell me it's up to the personal judgment of the administrator to decide who abuses the 3RR in these cases. These are clear-cut examples for which the rule should be able provide just as clear answers. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 03:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
If the state of the article before the first edit was 000, then Kotinski and Shirik above are correct. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 17:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I redirected Edit war because someone redirected it to something else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.188.47.185 ( talk) 21:58, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
WP:3RR lists removal of Libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced controversial material which violates the policy on biographies of living persons (BLP). as an exception to 3RR. I'm currently having problems with an edit war on an article involving an organization. Consensus seems to be that WP:BLP does not apply to organizations, however WP:V states Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living persons or organizations, and do not move it to the talk page. Thus an editor can put unsourced or poorly sourced material damaging an organization into an article on that organization 3 times and it cannot be removed under WP:3RR. This would seem to be inconsistent. -- Insider201283 ( talk) 13:51, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I posted this a while back and have received no notification. If there is no objection I suggest we change from -
Removal of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material that violates Biographies of living persons (BLP). What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.
to
Removal of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material that damages the reputation of living persons or organizations. (see WP:BLP and WP:V). What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.
-- Insider201283 ( talk) 17:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
(undent) my dear single purpose account, my response was not to you, it was to Kotniski. Hipocrite ( talk) 18:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Does using the "undo" button constitute a revert in 3RR?-- Supertouch ( talk) 22:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
As I wrote there, and it is relevant here and worth repeating: The reason discussion is important is the rest of the Wikipedian community can’t sufficiently get into an editor’s mind by reading just an edit summary; particularly ones that seem to misdirect from the true nature of the edit. If an editor has a logical argument that is based on facts and are supported by current Wikipedia guidelines and policies, then let them spell out their rationale there on the talk page so the issue can be sanitized by the sunshine of public inspection.
I am rather surprised that User:Causa sui is an admin. As such, his (or her) no-doubt impressive grasp of Wikipedia guidelines should reflect well upon him if he actually engages in discussion. Greg L ( talk) 23:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I've reverted SlimVirgin's edits today which made many changes "tightening" the policy [5]. Virtually none of these changes was an actual improvement - not tightening, but removing helpful links and relevant explanation, and in some cases being less clear. It must be remembered that this page is often one of the first policy pages which newbies read properly, and it is very important that it is clearly aimed at that target audience, not at keeping things simple for those long in the tooth. Rd232 talk 09:01, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Ref "Remember that anti-vandalism tools such as Twinkle, Huggle and rollback should not be used to undo good-faithed changes in content disputes."
What is the basis for this? If a non vandalism related reversion is made using Twinkle, but the edit summary doesn't mention vandalism, and no warning/notice is put on the reverted user's talk page, what is the relevant difference between a Twinkle revert and a "regular" one. The "TW" tag? ( Hohum @) 01:38, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
While reviewing it, I noticed that it does not conform to WP:ENGVAR. For example, the first paragraph of "Administrator guidance" uses both behaviour and behavior. If there is no objection, I'll clean it up per WP:ENGVAR. I normally would not ask in advance, but I don't want to start an edit war while editing Wikipedia:Edit warring. VMS Mosaic ( talk) 23:31, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I dare say Slim has good intentions, but I really don't see what the changes made today are supposed to achieve. They seem to go back in the direction of the unclear version we had before, where it isn't made clear (unless you read down) that "revert" in the context of the three-revert rule doesn't mean what you think it does, splits the definition of "revert" into several disjoint bits, and puts the question of sanctions for edit-warring under the 3RR heading. What was the point of this?-- Kotniski ( talk) 14:47, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski | SlimVirgin |
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==Sanctions for edit warring==
Editors who engage in edit warring are liable (usually after warning) to be blocked from editing in order to prevent further disruption. While all edit warring behavior is liable to lead to such sanctions, there is a bright-line rule called the "three-revert rule" which is very often applied as a reason for blocks. This rule is set out below. The three-revert ruleThe three-revert rule ("3RR") states: A "page" means any page on Wikipedia, including talk and project space. A "revert" in the context of this rule means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part. It can involve as little as one word. A series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert. The following actions are not counted as reverts for the purposes of the three-revert rule:
If you are claiming an exemption make sure there is a clearly visible edit summary or separate section of the talk page that explains the exemption. When in doubt, do not revert. Instead, engage in dispute resolution, and in particular, ask for help at relevant noticeboards such as the Edit war/3RR noticeboard. The four or more reverts that constitute a violation of the rule may involve the same or different material each time. The rule applies per person, not per account; reverts made by multiple accounts count together. Editors violating the rule will usually be blocked for 24 hours for a first incident. Remember that an administrator may still act whenever they believe a user's behavior constitutes edit warring, and any user may report edit-warring, even if the three-revert rule has not been breached. The rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times. If an editor breaks the three-revert rule by mistake, they should reverse their own most recent reversion. Administrators may take this into account and decide not to block in such cases, for example if the user is not a habitual edit warrior and appears to be genuinely trying to rectify their own mistake. SlimVirgin talk contribs 14:53, 1 May 2010 (UTC) |
==The three-revert rule==
Editors who engage in edit warring are liable to be blocked to prevent further disruption, usually but not necessarily after a warning. While all edit warring may lead to sanctions, there is a bright-line rule called the "three-revert rule" (3RR): A "page" means any page on Wikipedia, including talk and project space. A "revert" means any edit or administrative action that reverses the actions of other editors, whether it involves reverting the whole page or just part of it (even just one word of it), or reverting the same or different material each time. A series of consecutively saved reverts by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert. Editors must not perform more than three reverts of a single page in whole or in part within a 24-hour period. Editors violating the rule will usually be blocked for 24 hours for a first incident. The rule applies per person, not per account; reverts made by multiple accounts count together. The following actions are not counted as reverts for the purposes of the three-revert rule:
If you are claiming an exemption make sure there is a clearly visible edit summary or separate section of the talk page that explains the exemption. When in doubt, do not revert. Instead, engage in dispute resolution, and in particular, ask for help at relevant noticeboards such as the Edit war/3RR noticeboard. An administrator may still act whenever they believe a user's behavior constitutes edit warring, and any user may report edit-warring, even if the three-revert rule has not been breached. The rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times. If an editor breaks the three-revert rule by mistake, they should reverse their own most recent reversion. Administrators may take this into account and decide not to block in such cases, for example if the user is not a habitual edit warrior and appears to be genuinely trying to rectify their own mistake. |
I have an issue that I need advice on from the participants on this page. An editor is engaging in edit warring, but is using as an excuse the following statement:"Reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring", and citing WP:ONEWAY as the "overriding policy".
I see where he is getting this, as on this main page it states "Reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring. For example, under the policy on biographies of living persons, where negative unsourced content is being introduced, the risk of harm is such that removal (possibly backed by administrative action) is the norm until it is fixed and policy-compliant."
"Considering ONEWAY is a guideline (and often a judgement call), and doubting whether the "risk of harm" noted above is truly in play, can WP:ONEWAY be cited as an "overriding policy", and thus as an allowable reason for edit warring? Here are a couple of examples where this excuse was used in the edit summary: [ [7]], [ [8]], and here are two attempts to discuss the matter [ [9]] and [ [10]], where the reply was... less than cordial. Any input on this would be greatly appreciated. Please let me know if this is the wrong place for this discussion. Thanks. Smatprt ( talk) 00:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm not clear on what exactly this means. If one reverts another's change, but while doing so adds new text/citations to the text reverted, in an attempt to defuse the edit war, does that count as a reversion applicable to 3RR? In my view 3RR should apply only where two or more editors are reverting while not attempting to rectify the situation through such changes. Parrot of Doom 09:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I would like to propose a separate (sub)section for Slow Edit Warring, where the edits over a matter of days or even weeks consist entirely of reverts - none of which come close to triggering 3RR because of the 24hr time definition. Since I am unable to find any policy that deals with edits that are not obvious vandalism, do not violate policies relating to civility and personal attacks, or BLP's, but are disruptive, I have no precedent on how it might be worded. I was thinking of noting again that as 3RR per 24 hr period is a bright line, and not a permit to revert that number of times per 24 hours, that 24 hours itself is an arbitrary bright line, and a sequence of reverts over an extended period may also be considered edit warring. I have recently been involved in protecting articles and warning editors in respect of such "slow" edit wars, and have noted matters discussed at ANI which would fall under that criteria, and think adding a clear subsection to this policy would help both admins in enforcing a break in the cycle and editors who misunderstand that even two such edits per 24 hours over a few or more days would also be in violation of this policy. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 21:13, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
... as I learned after being blocked for a good-faith invocation of GRAPEVINE. (Thanks to Ncmvocalist for making me aware of the problem.) I believe the synchronisation problem may have been a significant factor in the incident. Compare:
Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that [...]. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Editors who find themselves in edit wars over potentially defamatory material about living persons should bring the matter to the BLP noticeboard.
The following actions are not counted as reverts for the purposes of the three-revert rule: [...] Removal of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material that violates the policy on biographies of living persons (BLP). What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.
— WP:EW
The relevant contradiction is in context and subtleties of the formulations which encourage the following opposite interpretations:
There would be no big practical difference if BLP/N was a rapid-response noticeboard like ANI. But it currently operates at a glacial pace, and anyone reporting a BLP violation to ANI instead risks accusations of forum shopping. Hans Adler 10:39, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Until at lest the beginning of 2005, the rule was worded as follows: [12]
Don't revert any page more than three times within a period of 24 hours. |
Some time during 2005, this changed to the following: [13]
Do not revert any single page in whole or in part more than three times in 24 hours. |
As of now, this has changed to:
This is a problem, because now even well intended edits can count as violations, as I found out in this conversation.
To keep it short, I'm using a 1RR rule as an example, as was the case in the conversation. The rule as it is now, allows situations as in the following sequence (please don't worry about if the edits make any sense, it's just an example. Real life situations are more complicated):
Paradoxically, the following typical disruptive POV warring scenario is allowed according to 1RR:
This is a particularly dangerous in POV conflicts since it favors the new version, which creates instability. (Explanation: In most cases, user:B is the POV editor who changes a page that has been stable for a while. This rule makes B's version the one that will remain for at least 24 hours.) The same thing happens with 3RR, it just takes a little longer and is more disruptive.
In short, The 1RR and 3RR rules, as they are now, can easily get dedicated editors into undeserved trouble. This needs to be fixed.
One way to fix it is by getting rid of the very formalistic wording altogether. I believe that part of the gradual change was because allowing 3 reversions was too disruptive. But the solution should not have been to make it like the law of a totalitarian regime, which is so complicated and far-reaching that it can hit everyone. Instead, we should get rid of the counting altogether, and start from the current definition of "edit warring". This makes even more sense now, since this page now is primarily about edit warring and not about 3RR anymore. I propose to reword it so it becomes an actionable policy as follows:
This page in a nutshell: Don't revert a reversion. Instead, discuss. |
We already have experience with a version of that rule, which worked out well - see Wikipedia:SLR/Don't re-revert!. — Sebastian 00:30, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
I submit a modest proposal: That we consider using some verbiage other than the word "undoing" in this page to define what a revert is. I would never have thought anyone could be so literal, but apparently a relatively unfamiliar editor read this page and then was baffled, baffled! to be confronted with having violated the 3RR. Why? Because he wasn't clicking "undo" to revert. Thread here at ANI: Wikipedia:Administrators noticeboard/Incidents#Concerns about User:CUNYTruther. Maybe we could replace or supplement it with "rewriting or erasing" or some other wording, just to be crystal clear. — e. ripley\ talk 19:40, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The Three-Revert Rule (3rr) says that no more than three reverts may be made in 24 hours (with certain exceptions). I would like to add a sentence of clarification: "This means that administrators may block an editor who makes a fourth revert 24 hours and one second after the first revert, but only if the administrator cites a valid rationale (such as edit-warring) aside from the Three-Revert Rule, which does not apply." The reason I'm requesting this clarification to the policy is because editors who are not edit-warring may try very hard to follow 3rr by waiting just past 24 hours to make the fourth revert, but then be blocked for 3rr anyway. Good faith edits should not be penalized by admins who stretch 24 hours to mean more than 24 hours. Any comments? Anythingyouwant ( talk) 18:14, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Here's an alternative clarification: "Please note that you can be blocked for 3rr even if your fourth revert is more than 24 hours after your first revert, and even if you are not generally blocked for edit-warring." I prefer the first clarification that I suggested above in this talk page section, but this alternative would still vastly clarify what the 3rr rule is. I prefer the first clarification because this second clarification does not explain how to avoid 3rr, i.e. it does not tell editors what a sufficient time is between the first and fourth revert to avoid being blocked for 3rr. Nevertheless, this alternative clarification would remove the false sense of security that an editor has complied with 3rr. If there is no objection, I will install this alternative clarification into the policy. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 00:03, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
"The bottom line: use common sense, and do not participate in edit wars" (emphasis in original). Common sense suggests that nothing magical happens 1 minute after midnight, and that 4 reverts in 24:01 is not appreciably different - in substance, intent, or sanctionability - than 4 reverts in 24:00. I think the policy is amply clear that editors can be blocked for edit-warring behavior even without making 4 reverts in 24:00. It already explicitly states that intentionally "spacing out" your reverts is an aggravating factor ("calculated or egregious abuse"). If people don't get it from the policy as it stands, then they're probably beyond reach of adding another redundant reminder. MastCell Talk 00:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
At the risk of being falsely attacked again for "trying to make a point", I would like to try this one last time. I suggest inserting this: "Four reverts during a period greater than 24 hours does not violate the Three Revert Rule, though they may violate the general rule against edit-warring for other reasons." That seems incredibly straightforward. In other words, don't rely on 3rr alone to block someone if the fourth revert was more than 24 hours after the first. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 04:35, 22 June 2010 (UTC)