This Wikipedia page has been superseded by Wikipedia talk:Requests for rollback and is retained primarily for historical reference. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
zomg polls coming out our ears. Did nobody tell you that
Poles polls are evil? –
Gurch 15:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
OMG we need a polll on what kind of poll we use to decide what kind of poll we're goeeng to haff!!!!!!!!!!111oneone
(seriously folks, that's where you're going to end up)
Stifle ( talk) 16:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that we can't call this a poll when the page name is Draft poll? Semantics won't solve this as long as this is in the hands of an extremely torn community with a large group of people who just don't care anymore and just wants to add moar rollcat to the involved pages. EconomicsGuy ( talk) 16:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh my. I never thought I would see the day when this sort of bureaucracy would overtake Wikipedia. This is really shameful. I'll keep awarding rollback, and I'll be around when people decide that the original poll was good enough, that giving people a rollback button that can be removed by any administrator at any time is not a big deal, and we all get back to sanity. Something that works this well and hasn't caused any problems so far, and can be fixed immediately if it does, should not cause this sort of reaction. I didn't even support it the first time around, but it works great. Grand master ka 18:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm just shocked anybody thinks that we need another poll, we know that around 75-80% of users support editors being given rollback in some form or other and that 67% of the community supports the present implementation, past polls have also gathered around 67% support for other proposed implementations, the result of any future poll is going to be substantially similar to previous polls. We did well with 450 editors voting in the most recent poll, that's about as representative as any recent polls have been. Nick ( talk) 18:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
One question, few choices are better. I favor a 1Q/4A approach similar to the 1Q/3A suggested by Conti (see here: Do you support...? 1)Yes, automatically for qualified users; 2)Yes, for users qualified by an administrator; 3)No. 4)None of the Above. Indicate that policy on the successful outcome will be worked out separately. -- Paleorthid ( talk) 19:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I've closed this poll as it's unneeded. Simple discussion on the /Vote talk page will be enough. Nakon 20:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Who the hell is that and where are these comments? Please link to them from the protection notice. Equazcion •✗/ C • 22:18, 11 Jan 2008 (UTC)
Let's see if we can list the main proposal "ingredients":
Note that the above should not be a case of picking just one, but each person blending the various ingredients to their preferred choice. (This could be seen as similar to how ArbCom often "votes", listing "first choice; second choice; third choice", or alternatively by creating an RfC, with each person's section being their preferred blending of the ingredients; or some combination of the two.)
If I missed any, please feel free to add more - jc37 11:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Can we have a link on the protected page Wikipedia:Requests for rollback/Vote to this? Maybe that would gather more attention. EconomicsGuy ( talk) 14:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
All of these proposals that continue to be debated and look at all assume that the software isn't fluid. That is, all of the assumptions made are based off of current software. It may be best to think outside the box. -- MZMcBride ( talk) 21:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Anthere's comments... especially that "storm in a tea-cup" bit, and the bit about JeLuF being a thoroughly decent guy. :-) But it's not as if she said to silence discussion for three months!
The inertia in a community this size is incredible. Most of the current behavior of the site is just there by accident, that it didn't occur to anyone to do something different, not because it was deliberately chosen. The reason autoconfirmed users don't get rollback isn't because someone handed it down on a stone tablet; it's because no one thought about it.
Any poll conducted now is going to have a huge flaw: it's unrepresentative, because only the people who really care are going to be bothered to say something. So there were 300 or so on one side, 100 or so on the other. But probably a large number of other people heard about the poll and thought "you know, I don't care which one it is." (And then went to go fight to the death about something more personally interesting. :-)) You don't see or hear from them. But clearly they don't think anything too terrible would happen if the decision went one way or another!
All such polls are going to be like this, especially as the active userbase grows, and so I am skeptical of how valuable they really are; they say how many people have a strong enough opinion on either side to think it worthwhile to vote but probably do not really reflect the views of the whole community.
My own preference is things like this is to choose the most interesting option, the one that will tell us something we didn't know before. So I'd like to see what happens if rollback is given to all autoconfirmed users. (Or even everyone, but a short delay to avoid simple "drive-by" vandalism is essentially "everyone".) If it's a total disaster, we learned something, and then we can pull back to admin-granted only. And if that's a total disaster, well, we learned something there too. (Didn't you ever do science experiments in school that didn't prove what you wanted them to?) I'm disappointed to see the status quo as a bureaucratic admin-granted rollback because it's boring; you don't learn what would happen if everyone got it after a few days, and it imposes a bunch of procedural overhead on admins who could be doing something else.
But we don't have a track record of experimentation, and people are scared of it -- used to seeing a change made and then stuck there, never to be changed again, or at least not without a lot of misery and a long delay. If a change you don't like is made, you lost; that's just How It Is for the foreseeable future. But that's not how it should be. We should be able to have changes with "experimental" status, which get evaluated after enough time has passed to see how it works out. Because it's nearly impossible to get consensus for anything anymore; in a community this size there's going to be opposition for anything that has even the potential to work out badly. The people who favor the status quo have the project history to point to; look, we've gotten this far this way and haven't fallen apart. The people who favor a change have only speculation and theories to point to, no real information -- but they'll never be able to get any real information if the change is never made.
The way things are isn't sacred. (There are few policies that are foundational, but those number in the single digits, maybe even the digits on one hand.) Mostly policy wasn't imposed from on high but written by people who watched what was going on and wrote up what was happening. And a lot of technical features of the site are there because no one suggested a different option, or considered one aspect of it while fixing another. The waiting period for page moves came up because of a page-move vandal; no one was thinking about rollback.
en.wp needs to come up with a better way to handle this or nothing will ever change; already it's near impossible to change anything about the way the site works (without doing it quietly, under the radar) because there will always be some who don't agree, or who mostly agree but are pulling for a different implementation. We don't worry much about bad user edits because they can be easily changed back. Even admin actions are mostly easily reversed. We should be able to have the same sort of calm approach to changing the way the site works... let people try things, because they can be changed back if they're not so good. (It requires a bit of willingness to take deep breaths and tolerate things that start off shaky, and willingness to accept that even when you're right that the status quo is better, other people need to see evidence before they'll ever believe you.)
And I can't believe how much edit-warring and craziness has gone on over this page... OK, I can believe it. But it's a little bit crazy. It's a storm in a tea-cup.
One last thing -- I am definitely not speaking for the Foundation or the Board or anyone; I'm speaking as a normal user who has been mostly logged out for the past few months to avoid the craziness. :-) I don't think the Foundation has any business making a decision on this, and for that matter I think it's a real stretch for the ArbCom too. But if we can't develop some processes within the community to try things out, no change will ever be put through. And for a project that's had many successes from being open to change, that would be a sad thing.
(Hm, this turned out far longer than I intended...)
Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 01:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
While I understand it may be rather cathartic to continue to discuss discussions about discussions, about polls about polls about polls about polls, which were and are attempts to determine consensus about consensus about consensus, should I take the now current lack of discussion above as Silence as consensus? - jc37 02:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Well, I can't say that would be the worst idea in the world, though I can say I'd be hard-pressed to find many solutions that would be much worse. We're in the middle of a cool-down period. The last thing we need is a drama-filled RfC that would reignite all of the issues that seem to currently have subsided. Is there any particular reason we can't re-evaluate this situation in a month or two with a simple discussion somewhere? GlassCobra: If Jimbo, the mailing list, and wikback haven't responded, perhaps that's an indication of something. -- MZMcBride ( talk) 06:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
This Wikipedia page has been superseded by Wikipedia talk:Requests for rollback and is retained primarily for historical reference. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
zomg polls coming out our ears. Did nobody tell you that
Poles polls are evil? –
Gurch 15:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
OMG we need a polll on what kind of poll we use to decide what kind of poll we're goeeng to haff!!!!!!!!!!111oneone
(seriously folks, that's where you're going to end up)
Stifle ( talk) 16:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that we can't call this a poll when the page name is Draft poll? Semantics won't solve this as long as this is in the hands of an extremely torn community with a large group of people who just don't care anymore and just wants to add moar rollcat to the involved pages. EconomicsGuy ( talk) 16:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh my. I never thought I would see the day when this sort of bureaucracy would overtake Wikipedia. This is really shameful. I'll keep awarding rollback, and I'll be around when people decide that the original poll was good enough, that giving people a rollback button that can be removed by any administrator at any time is not a big deal, and we all get back to sanity. Something that works this well and hasn't caused any problems so far, and can be fixed immediately if it does, should not cause this sort of reaction. I didn't even support it the first time around, but it works great. Grand master ka 18:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm just shocked anybody thinks that we need another poll, we know that around 75-80% of users support editors being given rollback in some form or other and that 67% of the community supports the present implementation, past polls have also gathered around 67% support for other proposed implementations, the result of any future poll is going to be substantially similar to previous polls. We did well with 450 editors voting in the most recent poll, that's about as representative as any recent polls have been. Nick ( talk) 18:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
One question, few choices are better. I favor a 1Q/4A approach similar to the 1Q/3A suggested by Conti (see here: Do you support...? 1)Yes, automatically for qualified users; 2)Yes, for users qualified by an administrator; 3)No. 4)None of the Above. Indicate that policy on the successful outcome will be worked out separately. -- Paleorthid ( talk) 19:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I've closed this poll as it's unneeded. Simple discussion on the /Vote talk page will be enough. Nakon 20:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Who the hell is that and where are these comments? Please link to them from the protection notice. Equazcion •✗/ C • 22:18, 11 Jan 2008 (UTC)
Let's see if we can list the main proposal "ingredients":
Note that the above should not be a case of picking just one, but each person blending the various ingredients to their preferred choice. (This could be seen as similar to how ArbCom often "votes", listing "first choice; second choice; third choice", or alternatively by creating an RfC, with each person's section being their preferred blending of the ingredients; or some combination of the two.)
If I missed any, please feel free to add more - jc37 11:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Can we have a link on the protected page Wikipedia:Requests for rollback/Vote to this? Maybe that would gather more attention. EconomicsGuy ( talk) 14:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
All of these proposals that continue to be debated and look at all assume that the software isn't fluid. That is, all of the assumptions made are based off of current software. It may be best to think outside the box. -- MZMcBride ( talk) 21:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Anthere's comments... especially that "storm in a tea-cup" bit, and the bit about JeLuF being a thoroughly decent guy. :-) But it's not as if she said to silence discussion for three months!
The inertia in a community this size is incredible. Most of the current behavior of the site is just there by accident, that it didn't occur to anyone to do something different, not because it was deliberately chosen. The reason autoconfirmed users don't get rollback isn't because someone handed it down on a stone tablet; it's because no one thought about it.
Any poll conducted now is going to have a huge flaw: it's unrepresentative, because only the people who really care are going to be bothered to say something. So there were 300 or so on one side, 100 or so on the other. But probably a large number of other people heard about the poll and thought "you know, I don't care which one it is." (And then went to go fight to the death about something more personally interesting. :-)) You don't see or hear from them. But clearly they don't think anything too terrible would happen if the decision went one way or another!
All such polls are going to be like this, especially as the active userbase grows, and so I am skeptical of how valuable they really are; they say how many people have a strong enough opinion on either side to think it worthwhile to vote but probably do not really reflect the views of the whole community.
My own preference is things like this is to choose the most interesting option, the one that will tell us something we didn't know before. So I'd like to see what happens if rollback is given to all autoconfirmed users. (Or even everyone, but a short delay to avoid simple "drive-by" vandalism is essentially "everyone".) If it's a total disaster, we learned something, and then we can pull back to admin-granted only. And if that's a total disaster, well, we learned something there too. (Didn't you ever do science experiments in school that didn't prove what you wanted them to?) I'm disappointed to see the status quo as a bureaucratic admin-granted rollback because it's boring; you don't learn what would happen if everyone got it after a few days, and it imposes a bunch of procedural overhead on admins who could be doing something else.
But we don't have a track record of experimentation, and people are scared of it -- used to seeing a change made and then stuck there, never to be changed again, or at least not without a lot of misery and a long delay. If a change you don't like is made, you lost; that's just How It Is for the foreseeable future. But that's not how it should be. We should be able to have changes with "experimental" status, which get evaluated after enough time has passed to see how it works out. Because it's nearly impossible to get consensus for anything anymore; in a community this size there's going to be opposition for anything that has even the potential to work out badly. The people who favor the status quo have the project history to point to; look, we've gotten this far this way and haven't fallen apart. The people who favor a change have only speculation and theories to point to, no real information -- but they'll never be able to get any real information if the change is never made.
The way things are isn't sacred. (There are few policies that are foundational, but those number in the single digits, maybe even the digits on one hand.) Mostly policy wasn't imposed from on high but written by people who watched what was going on and wrote up what was happening. And a lot of technical features of the site are there because no one suggested a different option, or considered one aspect of it while fixing another. The waiting period for page moves came up because of a page-move vandal; no one was thinking about rollback.
en.wp needs to come up with a better way to handle this or nothing will ever change; already it's near impossible to change anything about the way the site works (without doing it quietly, under the radar) because there will always be some who don't agree, or who mostly agree but are pulling for a different implementation. We don't worry much about bad user edits because they can be easily changed back. Even admin actions are mostly easily reversed. We should be able to have the same sort of calm approach to changing the way the site works... let people try things, because they can be changed back if they're not so good. (It requires a bit of willingness to take deep breaths and tolerate things that start off shaky, and willingness to accept that even when you're right that the status quo is better, other people need to see evidence before they'll ever believe you.)
And I can't believe how much edit-warring and craziness has gone on over this page... OK, I can believe it. But it's a little bit crazy. It's a storm in a tea-cup.
One last thing -- I am definitely not speaking for the Foundation or the Board or anyone; I'm speaking as a normal user who has been mostly logged out for the past few months to avoid the craziness. :-) I don't think the Foundation has any business making a decision on this, and for that matter I think it's a real stretch for the ArbCom too. But if we can't develop some processes within the community to try things out, no change will ever be put through. And for a project that's had many successes from being open to change, that would be a sad thing.
(Hm, this turned out far longer than I intended...)
Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 01:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
While I understand it may be rather cathartic to continue to discuss discussions about discussions, about polls about polls about polls about polls, which were and are attempts to determine consensus about consensus about consensus, should I take the now current lack of discussion above as Silence as consensus? - jc37 02:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Well, I can't say that would be the worst idea in the world, though I can say I'd be hard-pressed to find many solutions that would be much worse. We're in the middle of a cool-down period. The last thing we need is a drama-filled RfC that would reignite all of the issues that seem to currently have subsided. Is there any particular reason we can't re-evaluate this situation in a month or two with a simple discussion somewhere? GlassCobra: If Jimbo, the mailing list, and wikback haven't responded, perhaps that's an indication of something. -- MZMcBride ( talk) 06:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)