@ Pppery, Primefac, Uanfala, Wbm1058, and Wugapodes: (pinging those who participated in Wikipedia talk:Page mover/Archive 4#New user right allowing editors to move pages over one-revision pages that redirect to anywhere) Before I officially make this proposal, giving a chance for interested users to help flesh it out. Thoughts? -- DannyS712 ( talk) 06:38, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
delete-redirect
right yet? I would like to see how it works in practice. What sort of record is left in the logs, whether a deleted revision is left behind that an administrator could restore, etc. –
wbm1058 (
talk) 14:05, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
delete-redirect
listed as an admin user-right at
Special:ListGroupRights. Granted, admins don't need this right to perform this action. But, will admins doing this without the right be functionally different than page movers doing it with the right?
wbm1058 (
talk) 14:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
delete
rights
DannyS712 (
talk) 20:29, 30 December 2020 (UTC)delete/delete_redir2
. What log is this separately logged in? What is the
deletion tag log?
wbm1058 (
talk) 15:17, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
deleting redirects ... blocking page moves). Aside from that, the proposal looks good. * Pppery * it has begun... 15:24, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
mw:API:Logevents (
API help) lists all the possible values (codes) of log actions. Where is it documented what all these codes mean? Specifically what do delete/delete
, delete/delete_redir
, and delete/delete_redir2
mean? Can you list each of these specific log actions on the
Special:Log page? I hadn't noticed the "Type of deletion" dropdown on that page before. How is the "Type of deletion" queried using the API?
wbm1058 (
talk) 03:23, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
delete/delete
is a regular deletion by an administrator. delete/delete_redir
is any user moving a page over a single-revision redirect to the same target (the existing feature, not what is being proposed here). delete/delete_redir2
isn't currently used for anything, but will be used to log uses of the feature being proposed here if it gets approved. The "type of deletion" is queried by passing the relevant value to the leaction
parameter in the API. For example,
all single-revision redirects you implicitly deleted as part of a page move,
all pages you explicitly deleted not during a page move
all pages you undeleted.
* Pppery *
it has begun... 18:13, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Making a table:
API "action" | Special:Log "Type of deletion" | Description | Who can do this |
---|---|---|---|
"delete" | "Page deletion" | Deletion of a content page or a redirect that has multiple-edit history or doesn't target the page moved from | Administrators only? |
"delete_redir" | "Redirect overwrite" | Deletion of a redirect without multiple-edit history that targets the page moved from | All autoconfirmed editors |
"delete_redir2" | ?? | Deletion of a redirect without multiple-edit history that targets a different page than the page moved from, by a non-administrator granted the delete-redirect right |
Page-movers only |
How will "delete_redir2" be located in the deletion log? I don't see a new drop-down menu option for this.
API lookup for "delete_redir2" finds nothing, as expected because nobody has the delete-redirect
right yet.
Why does Pppery have 25 entries (in 2016) in the "Page deletion" log? If only admins are supposed to be able to do this? Software glitch? My first entry in this log was on 1 September 2015 (I was granted adminship at the end of August 2015).
But my first "Redirect overwrite" wasn't until 7 December 2016. I'm assuming that this wasn't broken out of the "Page deletion" bucket until later. Indeed, the first of these only appeared on 1 December 2016. – wbm1058 ( talk) 23:19, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
delete_redir2
will be the same as delete_redir
("Redirect overwrite") and the two subtypes will be shown together
DannyS712 (
talk) 23:48, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
I think the issue here is that if you move a page over a redirect, the old redirect is gone forever, rather than being moved to the archive table." I had assumed that this was by design rather than a bug. The reason being it wasn't necessary to save the redirect since you knew where it redirected to. Why I have been sooo concerned that there would be no record of where these new "delete_redir2" redirects redirected to. It is reassuring to know now that these will be recorded in the log, and the deleted redirects will be recoverable from the deleted revisions.
I just saw mw:Manual:Log actions, which is outdated. Can someone update it? wbm1058 ( talk) 04:25, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Just got this ping and made some revisions. It looks good without them though, so feel free to revert whatever is not an improvement. The changes were too much to explain in an edit summary so I'm elaborating here. This seems good to go honestly, so I added some top-matter to get it ready to post. It includes the RFC tag and cats as well as a short question for the feedback request service bot. The {{ draft proposal}} tag can be changed to {{ proposal}} when ready, and then just remove the no wiki tags. I also added an empty discussion section.
I tried to streamline the background section. The first paragraph is substantially the same, but I tried to phrase it so that the antecedents are clear. I removed the paragraph on deletion with a note, though looking at it now I might want to add it back in the logging section. Getting into the weeds of how the deletions happen (or that they're deletions at all) is probably not necessary for the background and better to bring up on request in the discussion, imo. I added a paragraph on the page mover group and how it relates to these move types and this proposal.
I simplified the table and moved it into background. I removed the "API action" column since most people won't understand it and it may confuse the proposal. For example, delete_redir and delete_redir2 weren't mentioned and are easily confused with the delete-redirect
right under discussion. Since most people won't care about the API specifics, better to avoid any potential misunderstandings. I tried to clarify the "type of deletion" column header but maybe made it worse? May edit that again later. I copyedited the "page deletion" description as well. For all of them, I standardized the forat of the "who can do this" column stating the user right that allows the action and in parenthesis gave the user group that contains it.
I modified the proposal section so that the proposals are imperatives and start with verbs. I made "example use cases" a subheading but might undo that. Still, I think it would be worth writing up how this will simplify/obviate most round-robin moves which imo is the biggest gain from this proposal.
So like I said, looks good and revert what's not. Probably worth a listing at WP:CENT when it's live. Thanks for all the work you've put into this Danny! — Wug· a·po·des 22:07, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Primefac, Wbm1058, and Pppery: does this look ready to start / any final thoughts? -- DannyS712 ( talk) 02:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
delete-redirect
to page movers.
Terasail
[✉] 14:05, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
WP:NAC
Should the proposal at
Wikipedia:Page mover/delete-redirect be adopted? --
DannyS712 (
talk) 23:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
move
right; page movers can be trusted with this additional ability without too much additional potential for abuse.
Twassman |
Talk |
Contribs 01:49, 27 February 2021 (UTC)delete/delete_redir2
.
mw:Manual:Log actions is still outdated.
mw:Manual:MovePage.php isn't much of a manual; the
class reference looks complicated. –
wbm1058 (
talk) 16:15, 19 February 2021 (UTC)delete-redirect
. –
wbm1058 (
talk) 17:18, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
Filed phab:T278131 to request that the configuration be changed and the right actually granted, once that is deployed I'll update the documentation -- DannyS712 ( talk) 14:28, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
Congrats to the first four page movers to take advantage of this new right!
Lugnuts, please take care to add a hatnote at the top of an article when you establish it as the primary topic by moving over a redirect to the former primary topic, as I did with this edit. – wbm1058 ( talk) 17:14, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
@ Pppery, Primefac, Uanfala, Wbm1058, and Wugapodes: (pinging those who participated in Wikipedia talk:Page mover/Archive 4#New user right allowing editors to move pages over one-revision pages that redirect to anywhere) Before I officially make this proposal, giving a chance for interested users to help flesh it out. Thoughts? -- DannyS712 ( talk) 06:38, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
delete-redirect
right yet? I would like to see how it works in practice. What sort of record is left in the logs, whether a deleted revision is left behind that an administrator could restore, etc. –
wbm1058 (
talk) 14:05, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
delete-redirect
listed as an admin user-right at
Special:ListGroupRights. Granted, admins don't need this right to perform this action. But, will admins doing this without the right be functionally different than page movers doing it with the right?
wbm1058 (
talk) 14:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
delete
rights
DannyS712 (
talk) 20:29, 30 December 2020 (UTC)delete/delete_redir2
. What log is this separately logged in? What is the
deletion tag log?
wbm1058 (
talk) 15:17, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
deleting redirects ... blocking page moves). Aside from that, the proposal looks good. * Pppery * it has begun... 15:24, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
mw:API:Logevents (
API help) lists all the possible values (codes) of log actions. Where is it documented what all these codes mean? Specifically what do delete/delete
, delete/delete_redir
, and delete/delete_redir2
mean? Can you list each of these specific log actions on the
Special:Log page? I hadn't noticed the "Type of deletion" dropdown on that page before. How is the "Type of deletion" queried using the API?
wbm1058 (
talk) 03:23, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
delete/delete
is a regular deletion by an administrator. delete/delete_redir
is any user moving a page over a single-revision redirect to the same target (the existing feature, not what is being proposed here). delete/delete_redir2
isn't currently used for anything, but will be used to log uses of the feature being proposed here if it gets approved. The "type of deletion" is queried by passing the relevant value to the leaction
parameter in the API. For example,
all single-revision redirects you implicitly deleted as part of a page move,
all pages you explicitly deleted not during a page move
all pages you undeleted.
* Pppery *
it has begun... 18:13, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Making a table:
API "action" | Special:Log "Type of deletion" | Description | Who can do this |
---|---|---|---|
"delete" | "Page deletion" | Deletion of a content page or a redirect that has multiple-edit history or doesn't target the page moved from | Administrators only? |
"delete_redir" | "Redirect overwrite" | Deletion of a redirect without multiple-edit history that targets the page moved from | All autoconfirmed editors |
"delete_redir2" | ?? | Deletion of a redirect without multiple-edit history that targets a different page than the page moved from, by a non-administrator granted the delete-redirect right |
Page-movers only |
How will "delete_redir2" be located in the deletion log? I don't see a new drop-down menu option for this.
API lookup for "delete_redir2" finds nothing, as expected because nobody has the delete-redirect
right yet.
Why does Pppery have 25 entries (in 2016) in the "Page deletion" log? If only admins are supposed to be able to do this? Software glitch? My first entry in this log was on 1 September 2015 (I was granted adminship at the end of August 2015).
But my first "Redirect overwrite" wasn't until 7 December 2016. I'm assuming that this wasn't broken out of the "Page deletion" bucket until later. Indeed, the first of these only appeared on 1 December 2016. – wbm1058 ( talk) 23:19, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
delete_redir2
will be the same as delete_redir
("Redirect overwrite") and the two subtypes will be shown together
DannyS712 (
talk) 23:48, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
I think the issue here is that if you move a page over a redirect, the old redirect is gone forever, rather than being moved to the archive table." I had assumed that this was by design rather than a bug. The reason being it wasn't necessary to save the redirect since you knew where it redirected to. Why I have been sooo concerned that there would be no record of where these new "delete_redir2" redirects redirected to. It is reassuring to know now that these will be recorded in the log, and the deleted redirects will be recoverable from the deleted revisions.
I just saw mw:Manual:Log actions, which is outdated. Can someone update it? wbm1058 ( talk) 04:25, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Just got this ping and made some revisions. It looks good without them though, so feel free to revert whatever is not an improvement. The changes were too much to explain in an edit summary so I'm elaborating here. This seems good to go honestly, so I added some top-matter to get it ready to post. It includes the RFC tag and cats as well as a short question for the feedback request service bot. The {{ draft proposal}} tag can be changed to {{ proposal}} when ready, and then just remove the no wiki tags. I also added an empty discussion section.
I tried to streamline the background section. The first paragraph is substantially the same, but I tried to phrase it so that the antecedents are clear. I removed the paragraph on deletion with a note, though looking at it now I might want to add it back in the logging section. Getting into the weeds of how the deletions happen (or that they're deletions at all) is probably not necessary for the background and better to bring up on request in the discussion, imo. I added a paragraph on the page mover group and how it relates to these move types and this proposal.
I simplified the table and moved it into background. I removed the "API action" column since most people won't understand it and it may confuse the proposal. For example, delete_redir and delete_redir2 weren't mentioned and are easily confused with the delete-redirect
right under discussion. Since most people won't care about the API specifics, better to avoid any potential misunderstandings. I tried to clarify the "type of deletion" column header but maybe made it worse? May edit that again later. I copyedited the "page deletion" description as well. For all of them, I standardized the forat of the "who can do this" column stating the user right that allows the action and in parenthesis gave the user group that contains it.
I modified the proposal section so that the proposals are imperatives and start with verbs. I made "example use cases" a subheading but might undo that. Still, I think it would be worth writing up how this will simplify/obviate most round-robin moves which imo is the biggest gain from this proposal.
So like I said, looks good and revert what's not. Probably worth a listing at WP:CENT when it's live. Thanks for all the work you've put into this Danny! — Wug· a·po·des 22:07, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Primefac, Wbm1058, and Pppery: does this look ready to start / any final thoughts? -- DannyS712 ( talk) 02:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
delete-redirect
to page movers.
Terasail
[✉] 14:05, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
WP:NAC
Should the proposal at
Wikipedia:Page mover/delete-redirect be adopted? --
DannyS712 (
talk) 23:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
move
right; page movers can be trusted with this additional ability without too much additional potential for abuse.
Twassman |
Talk |
Contribs 01:49, 27 February 2021 (UTC)delete/delete_redir2
.
mw:Manual:Log actions is still outdated.
mw:Manual:MovePage.php isn't much of a manual; the
class reference looks complicated. –
wbm1058 (
talk) 16:15, 19 February 2021 (UTC)delete-redirect
. –
wbm1058 (
talk) 17:18, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
Filed phab:T278131 to request that the configuration be changed and the right actually granted, once that is deployed I'll update the documentation -- DannyS712 ( talk) 14:28, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
Congrats to the first four page movers to take advantage of this new right!
Lugnuts, please take care to add a hatnote at the top of an article when you establish it as the primary topic by moving over a redirect to the former primary topic, as I did with this edit. – wbm1058 ( talk) 17:14, 24 March 2021 (UTC)