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How and when does work as a session musician (whether in the studio or on tour) confer notability? Certainly, some session musicians are notable for their session work alone--but what threshold should we apply? If someone plays in the pit band for a notable Broadway production (and has his name on the program), or receives an album credit for session work (but is not part of the band), or tours with a notable band... is this notable? -- EngineerScotty 18:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
On a current musician-related AfD (I won't say which one here, in order to avoid the appearance of undue influence), it was suggested by an editor that the fact the subject had albums for sale on amazon.com, Barnes and Noble.com, CD Baby, or similar sites, might be an indicator of notability. As far as I can tell (at least from Amazon site policies); the threshold for getting an album listed for sale on either of these sites is very low. While this is a good thing for independent musicians (who can thus have another sales channel, without needing the services of a record label), this fact seems to suggest that being offered for sale in these places is a poor indicator of notability. I (a pretty piss-poor musician) could probably cut a record and hawk it on Amazon, were I to invest a small amount of time and money into doing so (fortunately for the world; I will take a pass on this avenue to fame and fortune); however, simply being offered for sale there wouldn't make me worthy of an article here. Likewise, I can think of numerous local bands I like, currently not meeting this policy, who would suddenly be Wikipedia-worthy were amazon et al to be considered indicators of notablity.
Comments?
-- EngineerScotty 22:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
AudioJin 05:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I just reverted an addition of NPOV as something that an article must have to pass this guideline. I didn't revert because I necessarily disagree, but because it's a big enough change it needs to be discussed here first. Tuf-Kat 00:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The criteria currently says "Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one large or medium-sized country." The only certificaiton I know about is done by the RIAA. That's the Recording Industry Association of America. How does this certiciation criteria apply to albums released in other countries? -- Mikeblas 19:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
WP:MUSIC says "Has been featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media (excludes things like school newspapers, personal blogs, etc...)."
Yet, in this deletion review discussion, users are interpreting it in a way I find very confusing. Somehow, two major media mentions aren't enough, even though two is "multiple," and then they're suspending the debate to see just how extensive the coverage is in what will be the third major media mention, which as far as I can tell WP:MUSIC is concerned, is entirely irrelevant.
Is this what WP:MUSIC says, or are these guys misinterpreting it or avoiding it? It seems as clear as day to me: the band qualifies as notable. You guys are the experts, what do you think? -- 216.231.62.139 09:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Does the definition of "reliable and reputable media" include zines? It should. But the policy needs to be defined, as not all zines are equally important. We should also be more specific about blogs. There are music-related blogs and podcasts with sizable audiences and demonstrable influence. What criteria can we use to distinguish the reputable music blog from the non-reputable one? Audience size, longevity, syndicated content, mention in other media, _____ ? -- Jeandjinni 23:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I added a disclaimer that touring acts should at least headline their national tour. It doesn't really establish notability if you drive around in a van but no local club gives you top billing. Getting top billing internationally is usually much harder, so I left it out of the text. Please feel free to comment. ~ trialsanderrors 22:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. A tour is a tour is a tour, and headlining certainly shouldn't matter. This guideline is about separating your buddy's garage band from groups that actually attempt to work and tour and grow an audience. Now, with a "major tour" change, it's likely to become more exclusionary. I've said it before, I'll say it again - if a band/artist can be shown to have toured even regionally, outside of its "home base", it should be fine. If a band plays 20 club dates up and down the coast, but doesn't cross the Mississippi, what's the argument for exclusion? -- badlydrawnjeff talk 16:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
badlydrawnjeff, when you say "I can't count the number of opening bands I've seen that I hadn't heard of before, but blew me out of the water, there are way too many" it sounds like you're wanting to include bands on the basis of being a good band. This something we absolutely connot do here. We're not here to do original research and cover bands we like- that's what the music press is for. We're only here to make encyclopedia articles about bands that have already gotten significant coverage by the music press. Friday (talk) 18:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Since User:TUF-KAT thinks it's a major change and needs consensus, I prefer the wording of assert over rant about, since the latter has a strong uncivil flavor to it. Even and especially guidelines have to assume good faith. ~ trialsanderrors 22:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I made a change from "is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria" to "may be considered notable based on the following criteria". I think it's a good change because we absolutely don't want to give the impression that these are hard and fast rules. I want people to understand that if there's disagreement and an article ends up at Afd, each case is different and editors will apply their own judgment. The change was reverted, but I think it should go back in. Thoughts? Friday (talk) 23:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Per above discussion (Headliners_vs._support_acts) it doesn't sound like there's general agreement about constitutes a national tour. So far, a suggestion was made to say "significant tour" instead- knowing that this is vague and open to interpretation. So far I've seen a couple people in favor and nobody's given a reason against it that I've seen, but the change was reverted. Anyone have opinions on this? (Sorry for the multiple new sections but there's a couple seperate issues being discussed at once.) Friday (talk) 23:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
(Indents getting excessive): Alright, everyone keeps saying that "national tour" is more clear and meaningful than "significant tour". Maybe it's just me, but I'm still not seeing that "national tour" is any less vague. If 3 guys drive their car across a country, playing various shows, is this a national tour, or just 3 guys in a car? Or do we need more information in order to know? I think we can all agree that a band that plays only in one town is not touring, but what makes it a tour? Is it just about how far you're traveling? Concert says "A concert tour is a series of concerts by a musician, musical group, or some number of either in different cities or locations." I agree with that basic definition, but surely we don't mean to imply that 3 guys in a car driving around and playing in bars across a wide geographic area automatically establishes significance? Friday (talk) 18:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I ask because of the tag that just got added. It seems like, to me, that there's no real consensus to make any change, and no one's talked about it in almost two months. Thoughts? -- badlydrawnjeff talk 15:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Over at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jim Boyd (musician) there's currently a discussion as to whether or not the Native American Music Awards qualify as a "major award", and so whether winning one of the awards is enough to justify inclusion under the guidelines on this page. I'm somewhat undecided myself (though leaning towards the belief that the Nammys are insufficiently high profile or comprehensive to qualify as major) so I figured it might be useful to get some feedback here, and maybe see if there's any criteria that could be developed to help settle similar debates in the future. -- Daduzi talk 01:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Currently, the unwritten standard is that if a musician or band is notable, they typically get articles. With very few exceptions, discussions at AfD have reflected this as well. Thus, to bring this in line with how we've been operating, I propose adding a line to this as follows:
Thoughts? -- badlydrawnjeff talk 16:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there an article about the country song "King of the Road"? I think Randy Travis recorded it, and Boxcar Willie, too. Who wrote it? Who originally recorded it? -- Mikeblas 05:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm probably missing something extremely obvious, but I can't seem to find a page on notability guidelines for albums. I found the page for song notability, but is there one for albums? If not what is the standard? -- Will Mak 050389 15:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
- Albums. Though this guideline is somewhat controversial, the general consensus on notability of albums, is that if the band that made them is considered notable, then their albums have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Wikipedia.
Wouldn't most articles on albums violate WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information? If the article contains only a track listing and a list of musicians, and an infobox, it doesn't really meet Wikipedia's criteria.-- Srleffler 02:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Added a historical notability criterion -- Shirahadasha 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Then simply label them standards for modern music. Out of the difficulty at once. Because, as they stand, they are COMPLETELY UNAPPLICABLE TO ANY PIECE OF CLASSICAL MUSIC THAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO APPLY THEM TO. Adam Cuerden talk 21:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the correct page to propose this. I noticed that on a lot of pages for various artists that IMDB and MusicBrainz are used as External Links (along with discogs and allmusic.) Since Rollingstone is an acceptable source for albums, it seems to make sense that it should be a source for artist information. (After all, IMDB for makes a lot of sense for movies/ actors, etc, not sure how authorative it is for music, IMHO.) I know that Rollingstone is not always neutral, but they do have some interesting bios written (that are factual and neutral) along with listings for albums, etc. Just a thought. example: AC/DC Thanks 66.235.58.156 06:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Does this include genre based charts? I am interesting in supporting a page for a band that appeared in various 'Indie' (Independent Music) charts in UK music press papers in the late 70's and early 80's. On the one hand, these charts were compiled from the notoriously unreliable sales figures from independent record shops. On the other hand, these charts were published in UK-wide publications such as the New Musical Express, Sounds, and The Melody Maker. What are your views on how 'valid' these charts are? I only ask this because the definition of notability includes the phrase 'Has had a charted hit on any national music chart, in at least one large or medium-sized country' Does a chart which was printed by a country-wide publication, but was not a general (perhaps you prefer 'Top 40' as a more acceptable term?) chart count as valid?
I recently found a request for a bio of the jazz drummer Ari Hoenig in a musicians list shortly after joining the "Jazz Wiki Project", and added a short bio with a link to Ari's main Web site. I should note at the outset that Hoenig already has an article on the Italian Wiki site, has travelled extensively worldwide, has been featured in numerous magazines, newpspapers and Web sites, and certainly more than qualifies for an entry here. The link added intially to the page created to the artist's main site contained a huge amount of information and multimedia not possible to be displayed on Wikipedia, not withstanding the copyright and duplication concerns, and there isn't a need to reinvent the wheel in cases like these.
Almost immediately, a person challenged the entry with a request that the Hoenig somehow wasn't "notable" enough to qualify for a page, despite the fact said person later admitted they knew almost nothing about jazz short of a visit to see Harry Connick, Jr. in their native Australia. This person's profile notes they take pride in "raging against garage bands that don't belong here", etc. This same person has so far refused to withdraw their request for a CSD A7, leaving the page in limbo, and forcing me to spend hours adding further documentation to a page that didn't actually need it.
There are three problems here...one being guidelines that can be abused when someone's far too full of themselves in subject matter they know nothing about, adminstrators who don't follow their own guidelines and jump too fast to mark a page as CSD A7, and a potential lack of respect for non-commercial artists who may be more popular in Europe or Japan than elsewhere, but still fully deserving recognition in Wikipedia.
I would note for the record I write for a NY Times-owned newspaper and try extremely hard to research any subject I publish anywhere, regardless of the forum.
Tvccs 11:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm wondering if the editors of this page consider this to be a full guideline. The tag at the top is different from more accepted guidelines, and that makes me wonder. One thing i'm proposing is that you use the Template:guideline, rather than the tag you have now. Please discuss it here (i'll be posting this message on other pages that have this same tag). Thanks! Fresheneesz 20:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I've created Wikipedia:Notability (comics), an effort to help editors determine notability in comedy- and humor-related articles, and I adapted it from this guideline. Please take a look at it. Because there is enough overlap, it has been suggested that the comedian and musician aspects of these guidelines be merged into a notability guideline concerning performers or entertainers in general. Please also consider this. Thank you. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 20:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This makes me sad. I added Trio Mocoto twice yesterday. Only to see it removed, without any justification whatsoever. I thought there must be a problem. Today I added it again, with a note on the Talk page. Only to see it removed again. If Trio Mocoto is not notable according to these guidelines, these guidelines need to be changed.
Also, it would be quite polite to actually notify people of the deletion of an article they started. And not only some WP:BAND BS after people create the article 3 times with a note on the Talk page.
Not happy, not amused Guaka 19:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
These guidelines are written primarily for Pop music. It is almost impossible to apply them to,say, a minor opera of Rossini, since their guide to what music is relevant presumes modern day. Adam Cuerden talk
I'm confused about this criterion:"Has composed a number of melodies, tunes or standards used in a notable genre, or tradition or school within a notable genre." This seems to apply to essentially any band that has created new music (i.e., isn't just a cover band). Can someone explain this criterion, and how it ensures notability of a band? Perhaps I'm not clear on what it means for "melodies, tunes or standards" to be "used in a notable genre". Thanks. Doctormatt 23:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
"Has been featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media (excludes things like school newspapers, personal blogs, etc...)."
This criterion has been introduced since the last time I looked at this. There is nothing in Wikipedia:Reliable sources that leads me to believe that school newspapers (at least college) are not reliable sources, and I've used articles from college newspapers in the past to cite sources without objection. I would either adjust the above criterion to include at least college newspapers or I would remove it entirely. Grand master ka 08:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Tweaked it a smidgen. College is ambiguous between countries, University isn't. Also, given the recent scandal with the University of Manchester newspaper being taken over for POV-pushing purposes, I added a get-out clause. Adam Cuerden talk 22:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Using college newspapers to determine notability? Abosolutely not! College papers often write articles about musical groups which are clubs at their school or whose members are students. They do this because such articles are of interest to the student body. That does not mean that these groups are notable outside of their university. School papers had been explicitly excluded from this criteria for a long time. I find it slightly dubious that such a policy 180 was done with such little discussion here. Imagine if an article in a school newspaper was sufficient for WP:BIO. savidan (talk) (e@) 09:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
WP:MUSIC says a musician or ensemble is notable if they have won or placed in a major music competition.
I wondered if perhaps that could be reviewed and possibly removed. TV shows such as the Idol series ( American Idol etc) and The X Factor have singers who get to the final 10 contestants and are then voted off early on, and go back to their normal lives, never to be seen or heard again. I don't believe that makes somebody notable. I can't find any examples at the moment but with series currently airing, I'm expecting articles to be created that possibly shouldn't be. — AnemoneProj e ctors ( talk) 23:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that American Idol contestants are not notable unless they win (which generally means an album deal) or subsequently produce notable albums or have a notable showbiz career. IMO, Nor are game show contestants, or reality TV contestants, unless they then go on to a notable career. -- Ssilvers 13:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need "large or medium sized" specified for countries? I'd think any charting artist would be notable. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 04:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I'm not trying to shake things up here, but these guidelines for determining the "notablility" of a band or group are excessive. I know that it is important to keep the wiki free of "filler" information, but why is it that a local band -one that may be important to 50+ people in a given town- can't have a wikipedia page? As long as the article is well composed, contains useful information, and isn't just a plug or advertisment for themselves, there should be no problem in allowing such group to remain on the wikipedia. In case example (and why I started researching these guidelines), note The Game Genies article. Granted, this is a favorite band of mine, but that aside there is no legitimate reason that such an article can't be allowed. The "notability" of the band depends on where you are (or what you listen to). Music articles should be deleted based on article construction, information, and compliance with non-advertisment rules, not based on what people who have never experienced the music and the band think about a band's notablity. Afacini 19:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
At that point, any band that can get someone to write a "well-written" article can be in Wikipedia. Even if no one listens to them, or care. Wikipedia should be about KNOWLEDGE, not big masses of totally useless information. There are wiki's that are devoted to music and bands, and there are wiki's that are ENCYCLOPEIDAS. The suggestion you make basically means that the only people who can decide if a band is notable -- that is, if anyone ELSE besides the people who like it have heard of it -- ARE the people who like it. If you can't see the sheer insensability of that then I suggest you spend some time really READING up on what notability is. -- Shrieking Harpy...... Talk| Count 14:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I converted the bulleted lists to numbered lists so that individual criteria could be easily referred to by number in, for example, a deletion discussion. Other notability guideline pages such as WP:MUSIC/SONG and WP:CORP have their criteria in numbered lists. TacoDeposit 15:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Support after they gain approval Addhoc 14:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I gather the basis for WP:LP, and the earlier edit to these criteria are largely based on the statement in WP:V, "If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic." It seems we are trying to use verifiability criteria here to establish (or refute rather) notability. I have a couple of problems with this. First, it usually isn't hard to verify that an album has been published. The album itself is a published record of the track lists, lyrics, and liner notes--all which provide some material for an article. Second, aren't established record companies reputable, reliable, third-party publishers? Why need we argue point for point whether each recording in a notable artist's discography deserves space here?
I do think a criteria like WP:LP would be very useful for compilation albums/retrospectives offered by record companies. - MrFizyx 16:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
"Important note: Failing to satisfy the notability guidelines is not a criterion for speedy deletion."
This user has been using this as sole reason for speedy deletion and should be taken to task. -- Scottandrewhutchins 06:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Deletion review#DOPAMINE, it's being argued that it's OK to speedy an EP by a band with an article, and it's even being claimed that the articles are "page rank boosting". Is this typical behavior where music is concerned? -- NE2 21:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It is obviously preposterous to suggest that an opening band is as notable as the band they're touring with. (If they were, they wouldn't be the opening band!) It's also highly dubious, IMO, to accept that simply touring the country, by itself is enough to become notable (I could tour the country with my recorder, playing at parking lots and streetcorners throughout the US, and that wouldn't make me notable.) And now our resident inclusionist-par-extremis, BadlyDrawnJeff is
trying to argue that we don't even need any
reliable sources for claims of a tour; that we should simply accept an artists own word for it. Wow, now I don't even have to drive around the country; all I have to do is claim that I did on my web page, and I get a free article on Wikipedia to promote my nonexistent musical career! Can you imagine how many of the non-notable artists clamouring to get into Wikipedia would try to take advantage of this loophole if we allowed it? More mainstream spammers have already become experts at Wikilawyering to try to get their spamticles included in Wikipedia. Music promoters may not be quite as evil as everyday spammers, but they're hardly angels, and I have no doubt they will try to take advantage of any such gigantic loopholes in order to try to make a few extra bucks from Wikipedia's high visibilty on search engines.
I strongly suggest that, at least, we add "independent" to the sources requirement for tour reports (this should be fairly non-controversial, except, perhaps, with Jeff), and maybe add a suggestion that if an artist tours as an opening act and has no other claims of notability, that a merge to the article about the main act (or the tour) might be more appropriate (similar to the TV guideline, #10). Xtifr tälk 04:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
talk 16:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
This page in a nutshell: There should only be an individual article if there is enough verifiable information to give a reasonable level of coverage. |
This guideline pretty much excludes all Indie musicians. There's a clear difference between national though not mainstream artists and local bands. How can we define it though? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Girls gone docile ( talk • contribs) 12:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
I don't think the guidelines are anti-indie. The flaw in them is that comparing an indie artist's success to a major label artists success is rarely valid. There are only a handful of indie artists that have had album sales comparable to major label artists and that is often rare.
Indie artists can achieve notability, but the standard from measuring it should not be the same as what is applied to major label artists. There are indicators one can look for that may give signs as to an indie artist's level of professionalism (membership in certain organizations(NARAS,BMI, ASCAP, SOCAN etc.), distribution, RIAA ISRC compliant CDs, longevity/track record of multiple cd releases etc., yet it's not truly a gauge of there notability (impact on culture, music and society). So while it's easy to measure album sales, and the professional growth of a recording artist, the concept of notability (significance to a defined group of people) is more subjective.
I don't really see any harm in having articles on indie artists as long as they have either a consistent track record of publishing recordings or are doing something innovative in their genre. The indie recording artist with only one CD release or mp3s on a web site certainly should not be included. However, indie artists who have existed for more than five year to a decade with a body of published recordings (discography) should be considered, as they would not last that long if they were not making an impact on a fan base. AudioJin 05:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Does third bassoon of the Vienna Philharmonic qualify for a bio, based upon being member of a musical ensemble which has toured extensively and has multiple albums, if he/she hasn't done anything on his/her own? User:Zoe| (talk) 00:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Throughout the Wikipedia, we see differentiation and specialization of articles, as localities and regions accumulate sets of articles. In fact, this is happening with a wide variety of subjects, which is one reason why the Wikipedia has over 1.5 million articles (and is proud of it). Personally, I can't see why it is necessary to adopt more stringent guidelines for notability for musicians than for other subjects I can think of. I would also argue that many musicians have local and regional success, and hence would reasonably be included in connection with the local and regional articles I mentioned.
It's in the spirit of Wikipedia to keep adding articles. The decision on whether to read the articles should be left to the readers. The key question is whether the articles are concise, well-written, and well-researched, with verifiable information. If we have a lot of short articles on musicians, then that's fine.
The Wikipedia does not just appeal to one market. It appeals to a very wide set of specialized markets. For this, the more articles, the better. Who cares if an article appeals only to people in a given locality or region, as long as it is useful to them? For example, we had a set of articles on the candidates in our municipal elections here in Ottawa, Ontario, including one on Kitchissippi Ward where I live. How's that for notability? I can't imagine that those articles would have been useful to anyone outside Ottawa, but they sure were useful here, as I imagine similar articles were useful elsewhere, in other elections.
Likewise for musicians. There are so many genres and sub-genres of music, and tastes are so differentiated that we need lots and lots of articles. There is also the question of local, regional, and national cultures. In my case, for example, my main reason for reading Wikipedia articles is to find out more about new and emerging singers, particularly in Canada. I happen to have a very strong interest in Canadian culture, and I believe that more people - especially in Canada (but hopefully elsewhere) - should find out more about Canadian music. For our culture, which is always in jeopardy in face of the overwhelming impact of the USA, it’s important for us to support and recognize our new and emerging artists.
I do not want someone in some other country telling me that articles on Canadian singers do not meet their notability criteria. In Canada, there are also regional and provincial music scenes, e.g., Montreal, Atlantic Canada, and British Columbia, to name three that I am interested in. I can absolutely guarantee you that new and emerging singers in those markets would not meet the notability criteria. But why should that matter for someone outside Canada, or outside the areas I just mentioned? Why should someone in the USA or elsewhere be proposing the deletion of articles on our musicians?
In today's world, we need to embrace diversity, and to let localities, regions, and smaller countries write about their own cultures in Wikipedia. In Canada, we have always had the problem of being overshadowed by the USA in matters of culture (and in everything else). So just let us have our Wikipedia articles on our own singers, recognizing the fact that in Canada, we are also much more regionalized than in the USA, so local and regional cultures are doubly important here. Don't set up notability criteria that will screen out articles on new and emerging artists across the country. But the same point holds not only for regions and countries, but also for genres and sub-genres of music.
There is also the question of what's news and where is the value-added. Personally, I have limited interest in reading articles about established musicians that easily meet the guidelines proposed here. That's not news. I already know about those singers.
User:JD_Fan 11 December 2006, Ottawa, Canada
According to Wikipedia, one of the rules of notability is as posted:
“ | It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable.1
This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, and television documentaries 2 except for the following: Media reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician/ensemble talks about themselves, and advertising for the musician/ensemble. Works comprising merely trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that simply report performance dates or the publications of contact and booking details in directories. |
” |
Now, there is this band called The Tiny Masters of Today that I am interested in writing about. The band are American, but are mainly popular in Great Britain. Do all these links to various interviews in magazines, such as the New York Times ( link), Newsweek link), Drowned in Sound ( link), etc make these young musicians notable?
I want to check and make sure it's alright to start a TMOT article firsthand. Fanficgurl 3:33 December 13, 2006 (UTC)
I have created this article to help people who search for official chart positions for songs/albums find them. It contains links to official charts for many countries, but still needs some countries. I think it will be helpful for those who don't know many of those sites and that this will expand many chart tables. I would like to know if it's good (enough) and if so, it can be used on WikiProject page for chart tables and maybe even further than that ( template:Infobox Single/ Album and others). -- Luigi-ish 21:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
What constitutes notability in for a musician that is part of the minority (i.e., 350 speakers of the language) in a country where that musician's language is not given any airtime? The musician in question ( Mikkal Morottaja) is important amongst his own people and amongst the other minorities nearby, but the likelihood he's ever going to be heard by the majority is pretty nil in a country with the likes of Nightwish and HIM when you also consider the fact he raps in a minority language, Inari Sami. Quite frankly, it's pretty frustrating when the notability standards have been created to drive out non-notable musicians and groups in the American and UK markets, but at the same time end up excluding musicians and groups that are not in markets that chart sales (e.g., minority groups in Russia, etc.) unless they have somehow made it out of their home market. Is this what we really want Wikipedia to be like? - Yupik 08:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I've AFD'd this band article as I believe it falls under the notability bar but looks like we could use some more input - anyone who has a spare few minutes please check out the article and contribute so we can establish consensus. exolon 19:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
How and when does work as a session musician (whether in the studio or on tour) confer notability? Certainly, some session musicians are notable for their session work alone--but what threshold should we apply? If someone plays in the pit band for a notable Broadway production (and has his name on the program), or receives an album credit for session work (but is not part of the band), or tours with a notable band... is this notable? -- EngineerScotty 18:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
On a current musician-related AfD (I won't say which one here, in order to avoid the appearance of undue influence), it was suggested by an editor that the fact the subject had albums for sale on amazon.com, Barnes and Noble.com, CD Baby, or similar sites, might be an indicator of notability. As far as I can tell (at least from Amazon site policies); the threshold for getting an album listed for sale on either of these sites is very low. While this is a good thing for independent musicians (who can thus have another sales channel, without needing the services of a record label), this fact seems to suggest that being offered for sale in these places is a poor indicator of notability. I (a pretty piss-poor musician) could probably cut a record and hawk it on Amazon, were I to invest a small amount of time and money into doing so (fortunately for the world; I will take a pass on this avenue to fame and fortune); however, simply being offered for sale there wouldn't make me worthy of an article here. Likewise, I can think of numerous local bands I like, currently not meeting this policy, who would suddenly be Wikipedia-worthy were amazon et al to be considered indicators of notablity.
Comments?
-- EngineerScotty 22:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
AudioJin 05:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I just reverted an addition of NPOV as something that an article must have to pass this guideline. I didn't revert because I necessarily disagree, but because it's a big enough change it needs to be discussed here first. Tuf-Kat 00:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The criteria currently says "Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one large or medium-sized country." The only certificaiton I know about is done by the RIAA. That's the Recording Industry Association of America. How does this certiciation criteria apply to albums released in other countries? -- Mikeblas 19:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
WP:MUSIC says "Has been featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media (excludes things like school newspapers, personal blogs, etc...)."
Yet, in this deletion review discussion, users are interpreting it in a way I find very confusing. Somehow, two major media mentions aren't enough, even though two is "multiple," and then they're suspending the debate to see just how extensive the coverage is in what will be the third major media mention, which as far as I can tell WP:MUSIC is concerned, is entirely irrelevant.
Is this what WP:MUSIC says, or are these guys misinterpreting it or avoiding it? It seems as clear as day to me: the band qualifies as notable. You guys are the experts, what do you think? -- 216.231.62.139 09:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Does the definition of "reliable and reputable media" include zines? It should. But the policy needs to be defined, as not all zines are equally important. We should also be more specific about blogs. There are music-related blogs and podcasts with sizable audiences and demonstrable influence. What criteria can we use to distinguish the reputable music blog from the non-reputable one? Audience size, longevity, syndicated content, mention in other media, _____ ? -- Jeandjinni 23:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I added a disclaimer that touring acts should at least headline their national tour. It doesn't really establish notability if you drive around in a van but no local club gives you top billing. Getting top billing internationally is usually much harder, so I left it out of the text. Please feel free to comment. ~ trialsanderrors 22:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. A tour is a tour is a tour, and headlining certainly shouldn't matter. This guideline is about separating your buddy's garage band from groups that actually attempt to work and tour and grow an audience. Now, with a "major tour" change, it's likely to become more exclusionary. I've said it before, I'll say it again - if a band/artist can be shown to have toured even regionally, outside of its "home base", it should be fine. If a band plays 20 club dates up and down the coast, but doesn't cross the Mississippi, what's the argument for exclusion? -- badlydrawnjeff talk 16:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
badlydrawnjeff, when you say "I can't count the number of opening bands I've seen that I hadn't heard of before, but blew me out of the water, there are way too many" it sounds like you're wanting to include bands on the basis of being a good band. This something we absolutely connot do here. We're not here to do original research and cover bands we like- that's what the music press is for. We're only here to make encyclopedia articles about bands that have already gotten significant coverage by the music press. Friday (talk) 18:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Since User:TUF-KAT thinks it's a major change and needs consensus, I prefer the wording of assert over rant about, since the latter has a strong uncivil flavor to it. Even and especially guidelines have to assume good faith. ~ trialsanderrors 22:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I made a change from "is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria" to "may be considered notable based on the following criteria". I think it's a good change because we absolutely don't want to give the impression that these are hard and fast rules. I want people to understand that if there's disagreement and an article ends up at Afd, each case is different and editors will apply their own judgment. The change was reverted, but I think it should go back in. Thoughts? Friday (talk) 23:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Per above discussion (Headliners_vs._support_acts) it doesn't sound like there's general agreement about constitutes a national tour. So far, a suggestion was made to say "significant tour" instead- knowing that this is vague and open to interpretation. So far I've seen a couple people in favor and nobody's given a reason against it that I've seen, but the change was reverted. Anyone have opinions on this? (Sorry for the multiple new sections but there's a couple seperate issues being discussed at once.) Friday (talk) 23:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
(Indents getting excessive): Alright, everyone keeps saying that "national tour" is more clear and meaningful than "significant tour". Maybe it's just me, but I'm still not seeing that "national tour" is any less vague. If 3 guys drive their car across a country, playing various shows, is this a national tour, or just 3 guys in a car? Or do we need more information in order to know? I think we can all agree that a band that plays only in one town is not touring, but what makes it a tour? Is it just about how far you're traveling? Concert says "A concert tour is a series of concerts by a musician, musical group, or some number of either in different cities or locations." I agree with that basic definition, but surely we don't mean to imply that 3 guys in a car driving around and playing in bars across a wide geographic area automatically establishes significance? Friday (talk) 18:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I ask because of the tag that just got added. It seems like, to me, that there's no real consensus to make any change, and no one's talked about it in almost two months. Thoughts? -- badlydrawnjeff talk 15:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Over at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jim Boyd (musician) there's currently a discussion as to whether or not the Native American Music Awards qualify as a "major award", and so whether winning one of the awards is enough to justify inclusion under the guidelines on this page. I'm somewhat undecided myself (though leaning towards the belief that the Nammys are insufficiently high profile or comprehensive to qualify as major) so I figured it might be useful to get some feedback here, and maybe see if there's any criteria that could be developed to help settle similar debates in the future. -- Daduzi talk 01:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Currently, the unwritten standard is that if a musician or band is notable, they typically get articles. With very few exceptions, discussions at AfD have reflected this as well. Thus, to bring this in line with how we've been operating, I propose adding a line to this as follows:
Thoughts? -- badlydrawnjeff talk 16:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there an article about the country song "King of the Road"? I think Randy Travis recorded it, and Boxcar Willie, too. Who wrote it? Who originally recorded it? -- Mikeblas 05:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm probably missing something extremely obvious, but I can't seem to find a page on notability guidelines for albums. I found the page for song notability, but is there one for albums? If not what is the standard? -- Will Mak 050389 15:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
- Albums. Though this guideline is somewhat controversial, the general consensus on notability of albums, is that if the band that made them is considered notable, then their albums have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Wikipedia.
Wouldn't most articles on albums violate WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information? If the article contains only a track listing and a list of musicians, and an infobox, it doesn't really meet Wikipedia's criteria.-- Srleffler 02:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Added a historical notability criterion -- Shirahadasha 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Then simply label them standards for modern music. Out of the difficulty at once. Because, as they stand, they are COMPLETELY UNAPPLICABLE TO ANY PIECE OF CLASSICAL MUSIC THAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO APPLY THEM TO. Adam Cuerden talk 21:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the correct page to propose this. I noticed that on a lot of pages for various artists that IMDB and MusicBrainz are used as External Links (along with discogs and allmusic.) Since Rollingstone is an acceptable source for albums, it seems to make sense that it should be a source for artist information. (After all, IMDB for makes a lot of sense for movies/ actors, etc, not sure how authorative it is for music, IMHO.) I know that Rollingstone is not always neutral, but they do have some interesting bios written (that are factual and neutral) along with listings for albums, etc. Just a thought. example: AC/DC Thanks 66.235.58.156 06:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Does this include genre based charts? I am interesting in supporting a page for a band that appeared in various 'Indie' (Independent Music) charts in UK music press papers in the late 70's and early 80's. On the one hand, these charts were compiled from the notoriously unreliable sales figures from independent record shops. On the other hand, these charts were published in UK-wide publications such as the New Musical Express, Sounds, and The Melody Maker. What are your views on how 'valid' these charts are? I only ask this because the definition of notability includes the phrase 'Has had a charted hit on any national music chart, in at least one large or medium-sized country' Does a chart which was printed by a country-wide publication, but was not a general (perhaps you prefer 'Top 40' as a more acceptable term?) chart count as valid?
I recently found a request for a bio of the jazz drummer Ari Hoenig in a musicians list shortly after joining the "Jazz Wiki Project", and added a short bio with a link to Ari's main Web site. I should note at the outset that Hoenig already has an article on the Italian Wiki site, has travelled extensively worldwide, has been featured in numerous magazines, newpspapers and Web sites, and certainly more than qualifies for an entry here. The link added intially to the page created to the artist's main site contained a huge amount of information and multimedia not possible to be displayed on Wikipedia, not withstanding the copyright and duplication concerns, and there isn't a need to reinvent the wheel in cases like these.
Almost immediately, a person challenged the entry with a request that the Hoenig somehow wasn't "notable" enough to qualify for a page, despite the fact said person later admitted they knew almost nothing about jazz short of a visit to see Harry Connick, Jr. in their native Australia. This person's profile notes they take pride in "raging against garage bands that don't belong here", etc. This same person has so far refused to withdraw their request for a CSD A7, leaving the page in limbo, and forcing me to spend hours adding further documentation to a page that didn't actually need it.
There are three problems here...one being guidelines that can be abused when someone's far too full of themselves in subject matter they know nothing about, adminstrators who don't follow their own guidelines and jump too fast to mark a page as CSD A7, and a potential lack of respect for non-commercial artists who may be more popular in Europe or Japan than elsewhere, but still fully deserving recognition in Wikipedia.
I would note for the record I write for a NY Times-owned newspaper and try extremely hard to research any subject I publish anywhere, regardless of the forum.
Tvccs 11:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm wondering if the editors of this page consider this to be a full guideline. The tag at the top is different from more accepted guidelines, and that makes me wonder. One thing i'm proposing is that you use the Template:guideline, rather than the tag you have now. Please discuss it here (i'll be posting this message on other pages that have this same tag). Thanks! Fresheneesz 20:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I've created Wikipedia:Notability (comics), an effort to help editors determine notability in comedy- and humor-related articles, and I adapted it from this guideline. Please take a look at it. Because there is enough overlap, it has been suggested that the comedian and musician aspects of these guidelines be merged into a notability guideline concerning performers or entertainers in general. Please also consider this. Thank you. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 20:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This makes me sad. I added Trio Mocoto twice yesterday. Only to see it removed, without any justification whatsoever. I thought there must be a problem. Today I added it again, with a note on the Talk page. Only to see it removed again. If Trio Mocoto is not notable according to these guidelines, these guidelines need to be changed.
Also, it would be quite polite to actually notify people of the deletion of an article they started. And not only some WP:BAND BS after people create the article 3 times with a note on the Talk page.
Not happy, not amused Guaka 19:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
These guidelines are written primarily for Pop music. It is almost impossible to apply them to,say, a minor opera of Rossini, since their guide to what music is relevant presumes modern day. Adam Cuerden talk
I'm confused about this criterion:"Has composed a number of melodies, tunes or standards used in a notable genre, or tradition or school within a notable genre." This seems to apply to essentially any band that has created new music (i.e., isn't just a cover band). Can someone explain this criterion, and how it ensures notability of a band? Perhaps I'm not clear on what it means for "melodies, tunes or standards" to be "used in a notable genre". Thanks. Doctormatt 23:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
"Has been featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media (excludes things like school newspapers, personal blogs, etc...)."
This criterion has been introduced since the last time I looked at this. There is nothing in Wikipedia:Reliable sources that leads me to believe that school newspapers (at least college) are not reliable sources, and I've used articles from college newspapers in the past to cite sources without objection. I would either adjust the above criterion to include at least college newspapers or I would remove it entirely. Grand master ka 08:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Tweaked it a smidgen. College is ambiguous between countries, University isn't. Also, given the recent scandal with the University of Manchester newspaper being taken over for POV-pushing purposes, I added a get-out clause. Adam Cuerden talk 22:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Using college newspapers to determine notability? Abosolutely not! College papers often write articles about musical groups which are clubs at their school or whose members are students. They do this because such articles are of interest to the student body. That does not mean that these groups are notable outside of their university. School papers had been explicitly excluded from this criteria for a long time. I find it slightly dubious that such a policy 180 was done with such little discussion here. Imagine if an article in a school newspaper was sufficient for WP:BIO. savidan (talk) (e@) 09:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
WP:MUSIC says a musician or ensemble is notable if they have won or placed in a major music competition.
I wondered if perhaps that could be reviewed and possibly removed. TV shows such as the Idol series ( American Idol etc) and The X Factor have singers who get to the final 10 contestants and are then voted off early on, and go back to their normal lives, never to be seen or heard again. I don't believe that makes somebody notable. I can't find any examples at the moment but with series currently airing, I'm expecting articles to be created that possibly shouldn't be. — AnemoneProj e ctors ( talk) 23:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that American Idol contestants are not notable unless they win (which generally means an album deal) or subsequently produce notable albums or have a notable showbiz career. IMO, Nor are game show contestants, or reality TV contestants, unless they then go on to a notable career. -- Ssilvers 13:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need "large or medium sized" specified for countries? I'd think any charting artist would be notable. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 04:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I'm not trying to shake things up here, but these guidelines for determining the "notablility" of a band or group are excessive. I know that it is important to keep the wiki free of "filler" information, but why is it that a local band -one that may be important to 50+ people in a given town- can't have a wikipedia page? As long as the article is well composed, contains useful information, and isn't just a plug or advertisment for themselves, there should be no problem in allowing such group to remain on the wikipedia. In case example (and why I started researching these guidelines), note The Game Genies article. Granted, this is a favorite band of mine, but that aside there is no legitimate reason that such an article can't be allowed. The "notability" of the band depends on where you are (or what you listen to). Music articles should be deleted based on article construction, information, and compliance with non-advertisment rules, not based on what people who have never experienced the music and the band think about a band's notablity. Afacini 19:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
At that point, any band that can get someone to write a "well-written" article can be in Wikipedia. Even if no one listens to them, or care. Wikipedia should be about KNOWLEDGE, not big masses of totally useless information. There are wiki's that are devoted to music and bands, and there are wiki's that are ENCYCLOPEIDAS. The suggestion you make basically means that the only people who can decide if a band is notable -- that is, if anyone ELSE besides the people who like it have heard of it -- ARE the people who like it. If you can't see the sheer insensability of that then I suggest you spend some time really READING up on what notability is. -- Shrieking Harpy...... Talk| Count 14:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I converted the bulleted lists to numbered lists so that individual criteria could be easily referred to by number in, for example, a deletion discussion. Other notability guideline pages such as WP:MUSIC/SONG and WP:CORP have their criteria in numbered lists. TacoDeposit 15:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Support after they gain approval Addhoc 14:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I gather the basis for WP:LP, and the earlier edit to these criteria are largely based on the statement in WP:V, "If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic." It seems we are trying to use verifiability criteria here to establish (or refute rather) notability. I have a couple of problems with this. First, it usually isn't hard to verify that an album has been published. The album itself is a published record of the track lists, lyrics, and liner notes--all which provide some material for an article. Second, aren't established record companies reputable, reliable, third-party publishers? Why need we argue point for point whether each recording in a notable artist's discography deserves space here?
I do think a criteria like WP:LP would be very useful for compilation albums/retrospectives offered by record companies. - MrFizyx 16:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
"Important note: Failing to satisfy the notability guidelines is not a criterion for speedy deletion."
This user has been using this as sole reason for speedy deletion and should be taken to task. -- Scottandrewhutchins 06:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Deletion review#DOPAMINE, it's being argued that it's OK to speedy an EP by a band with an article, and it's even being claimed that the articles are "page rank boosting". Is this typical behavior where music is concerned? -- NE2 21:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It is obviously preposterous to suggest that an opening band is as notable as the band they're touring with. (If they were, they wouldn't be the opening band!) It's also highly dubious, IMO, to accept that simply touring the country, by itself is enough to become notable (I could tour the country with my recorder, playing at parking lots and streetcorners throughout the US, and that wouldn't make me notable.) And now our resident inclusionist-par-extremis, BadlyDrawnJeff is
trying to argue that we don't even need any
reliable sources for claims of a tour; that we should simply accept an artists own word for it. Wow, now I don't even have to drive around the country; all I have to do is claim that I did on my web page, and I get a free article on Wikipedia to promote my nonexistent musical career! Can you imagine how many of the non-notable artists clamouring to get into Wikipedia would try to take advantage of this loophole if we allowed it? More mainstream spammers have already become experts at Wikilawyering to try to get their spamticles included in Wikipedia. Music promoters may not be quite as evil as everyday spammers, but they're hardly angels, and I have no doubt they will try to take advantage of any such gigantic loopholes in order to try to make a few extra bucks from Wikipedia's high visibilty on search engines.
I strongly suggest that, at least, we add "independent" to the sources requirement for tour reports (this should be fairly non-controversial, except, perhaps, with Jeff), and maybe add a suggestion that if an artist tours as an opening act and has no other claims of notability, that a merge to the article about the main act (or the tour) might be more appropriate (similar to the TV guideline, #10). Xtifr tälk 04:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
talk 16:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
This page in a nutshell: There should only be an individual article if there is enough verifiable information to give a reasonable level of coverage. |
This guideline pretty much excludes all Indie musicians. There's a clear difference between national though not mainstream artists and local bands. How can we define it though? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Girls gone docile ( talk • contribs) 12:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
I don't think the guidelines are anti-indie. The flaw in them is that comparing an indie artist's success to a major label artists success is rarely valid. There are only a handful of indie artists that have had album sales comparable to major label artists and that is often rare.
Indie artists can achieve notability, but the standard from measuring it should not be the same as what is applied to major label artists. There are indicators one can look for that may give signs as to an indie artist's level of professionalism (membership in certain organizations(NARAS,BMI, ASCAP, SOCAN etc.), distribution, RIAA ISRC compliant CDs, longevity/track record of multiple cd releases etc., yet it's not truly a gauge of there notability (impact on culture, music and society). So while it's easy to measure album sales, and the professional growth of a recording artist, the concept of notability (significance to a defined group of people) is more subjective.
I don't really see any harm in having articles on indie artists as long as they have either a consistent track record of publishing recordings or are doing something innovative in their genre. The indie recording artist with only one CD release or mp3s on a web site certainly should not be included. However, indie artists who have existed for more than five year to a decade with a body of published recordings (discography) should be considered, as they would not last that long if they were not making an impact on a fan base. AudioJin 05:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Does third bassoon of the Vienna Philharmonic qualify for a bio, based upon being member of a musical ensemble which has toured extensively and has multiple albums, if he/she hasn't done anything on his/her own? User:Zoe| (talk) 00:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Throughout the Wikipedia, we see differentiation and specialization of articles, as localities and regions accumulate sets of articles. In fact, this is happening with a wide variety of subjects, which is one reason why the Wikipedia has over 1.5 million articles (and is proud of it). Personally, I can't see why it is necessary to adopt more stringent guidelines for notability for musicians than for other subjects I can think of. I would also argue that many musicians have local and regional success, and hence would reasonably be included in connection with the local and regional articles I mentioned.
It's in the spirit of Wikipedia to keep adding articles. The decision on whether to read the articles should be left to the readers. The key question is whether the articles are concise, well-written, and well-researched, with verifiable information. If we have a lot of short articles on musicians, then that's fine.
The Wikipedia does not just appeal to one market. It appeals to a very wide set of specialized markets. For this, the more articles, the better. Who cares if an article appeals only to people in a given locality or region, as long as it is useful to them? For example, we had a set of articles on the candidates in our municipal elections here in Ottawa, Ontario, including one on Kitchissippi Ward where I live. How's that for notability? I can't imagine that those articles would have been useful to anyone outside Ottawa, but they sure were useful here, as I imagine similar articles were useful elsewhere, in other elections.
Likewise for musicians. There are so many genres and sub-genres of music, and tastes are so differentiated that we need lots and lots of articles. There is also the question of local, regional, and national cultures. In my case, for example, my main reason for reading Wikipedia articles is to find out more about new and emerging singers, particularly in Canada. I happen to have a very strong interest in Canadian culture, and I believe that more people - especially in Canada (but hopefully elsewhere) - should find out more about Canadian music. For our culture, which is always in jeopardy in face of the overwhelming impact of the USA, it’s important for us to support and recognize our new and emerging artists.
I do not want someone in some other country telling me that articles on Canadian singers do not meet their notability criteria. In Canada, there are also regional and provincial music scenes, e.g., Montreal, Atlantic Canada, and British Columbia, to name three that I am interested in. I can absolutely guarantee you that new and emerging singers in those markets would not meet the notability criteria. But why should that matter for someone outside Canada, or outside the areas I just mentioned? Why should someone in the USA or elsewhere be proposing the deletion of articles on our musicians?
In today's world, we need to embrace diversity, and to let localities, regions, and smaller countries write about their own cultures in Wikipedia. In Canada, we have always had the problem of being overshadowed by the USA in matters of culture (and in everything else). So just let us have our Wikipedia articles on our own singers, recognizing the fact that in Canada, we are also much more regionalized than in the USA, so local and regional cultures are doubly important here. Don't set up notability criteria that will screen out articles on new and emerging artists across the country. But the same point holds not only for regions and countries, but also for genres and sub-genres of music.
There is also the question of what's news and where is the value-added. Personally, I have limited interest in reading articles about established musicians that easily meet the guidelines proposed here. That's not news. I already know about those singers.
User:JD_Fan 11 December 2006, Ottawa, Canada
According to Wikipedia, one of the rules of notability is as posted:
“ | It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable.1
This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, and television documentaries 2 except for the following: Media reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician/ensemble talks about themselves, and advertising for the musician/ensemble. Works comprising merely trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that simply report performance dates or the publications of contact and booking details in directories. |
” |
Now, there is this band called The Tiny Masters of Today that I am interested in writing about. The band are American, but are mainly popular in Great Britain. Do all these links to various interviews in magazines, such as the New York Times ( link), Newsweek link), Drowned in Sound ( link), etc make these young musicians notable?
I want to check and make sure it's alright to start a TMOT article firsthand. Fanficgurl 3:33 December 13, 2006 (UTC)
I have created this article to help people who search for official chart positions for songs/albums find them. It contains links to official charts for many countries, but still needs some countries. I think it will be helpful for those who don't know many of those sites and that this will expand many chart tables. I would like to know if it's good (enough) and if so, it can be used on WikiProject page for chart tables and maybe even further than that ( template:Infobox Single/ Album and others). -- Luigi-ish 21:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
What constitutes notability in for a musician that is part of the minority (i.e., 350 speakers of the language) in a country where that musician's language is not given any airtime? The musician in question ( Mikkal Morottaja) is important amongst his own people and amongst the other minorities nearby, but the likelihood he's ever going to be heard by the majority is pretty nil in a country with the likes of Nightwish and HIM when you also consider the fact he raps in a minority language, Inari Sami. Quite frankly, it's pretty frustrating when the notability standards have been created to drive out non-notable musicians and groups in the American and UK markets, but at the same time end up excluding musicians and groups that are not in markets that chart sales (e.g., minority groups in Russia, etc.) unless they have somehow made it out of their home market. Is this what we really want Wikipedia to be like? - Yupik 08:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I've AFD'd this band article as I believe it falls under the notability bar but looks like we could use some more input - anyone who has a spare few minutes please check out the article and contribute so we can establish consensus. exolon 19:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)