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Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Usage and spelling contains a recommendation about words with variant spellings where their spellings are typical of different forms of English:
If the spelling appears within the article text, also consider a consistent synonym such as focus or middle rather than center/centre.
The sentence fist appeared on June 29 of this year, added by Adamsan. [1] There is no related discussion on the talk pages of that period. I myself first noticed it on October 18 when looking through Maureen's draft trim. I was surprised that I had not noticed it before. My comment was:
This advice is horrendous! Is there another style guide in the world that would suggest one should reconsider using normal, everyday English words because they have more than one common spelling? The result of this, if people paid any attention, would be a non-standard Wikipedia dialect of English, limited to spelling-neutral vocabulary. Better to go with a fixed spelling, whether US or Britsh or whatever, than this! [2]
Maureen suggested, quite rightly, that we not deal with substantive changes when considering the draft trim, and I let the matter pass at that time.
I believe the sentence should be removed because:
Is there any support for retaining this rule?
Jallan 04:34, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I disagree that it encourages the use of 'bogus, neutered English' as surely all words in a Wikipedian's standard lexicon are as 'authentic' as each other? It is up to the editor's personal choice as to the vocabulary he uses so whether or not people 'giggle' at it is a subjective decision. Is 'hue' really an intrinsicly funny word or does it have a valid role to play in certain sentences? Additionally I stressed that only consideration should be given as the advice can work in certain cases. I am not suggesting that Sulphur/Sulfur be moved to Brimstone but I note that Railroad and Railway redirect to Rail Transport. Some may giggle at the choice, but the practice of choosing consistent synonyms clearly exists and should be managed in some way.
Nor am I suggesting that all articles be rewritten in neutrally-spelt English, merely that the use of this system may in some cases reduce conflict in already contentious topics.
Is there any style guide that has to cope with numerous different regional orthographies? The wiki MoS has evolved in the face of differring styles from around the world whilst the style guides I have used in the past have been targeted at users of British or American English only. If we are breaking new ground in the subject by producing a style guide for all then past examples are invalid on this subject.
I think the example of the conflicts at White Guilt has more to do with the editor's choice of a poor synonym rather than a fault with the whole concept of choosing different words to make the text easier on the reader's eye. If colored/coloured is really the best word to choose then it should be used and spelt consistently.
As I say, I worded this as advice, that consideration should be given to the idea. No more than that. If the implementation needs tightening then I would be pleased to join in any effort to do this but I feel the idea has merit and although the style guide didn't mention it, this practice is occurring and needs to be acknowledged or things really will start happening in the manner of the Doomsday scenario Jallan describes. adamsan 09:07, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree that there are wider issues here though. adamsan 18:10, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree that when it comes to things that need their own page titles then any attempt to regularise orthography fails horribly. And I am not suggesting that we do a Wiki-wide Find and Replace, like globally changing 'colour' to 'hue'; that would indeed be ridiculous. What I was hoping to achieve was to avoid low-level spelling conflicts when less important words like 'center' get needlessly changed to 'centre' in articles on..I don't know... Grasshoppers or something. By encouraging use of consistent synonyms (and thesaurus.com lists about 30 for centre as a noun alone) I hope that the wiki can produce articles where editing time is not wasted arguing about spelling. A possible side benefit is that editors will use more varied language, thereby widening everyone's vocabulary! Hooray! :-) adamsan 19:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A recommendation only to "consider" is hardly a recommendation. It could just as well be replaced by its opposite:
But if the spelling appears within the article text, normally it is not necessary to consider a consistent synonym such as focus or middle rather than center/centre.
This strongly implies that in some cases such consideration might have value (which is true) and appears to be closer to adamsan's intent as stated than what was written. I would find this far more acceptable.
But is there use in stating something so obvious when the number of times when it can be valuably employed are few and specialized and probably obvious.
"Railway" and "railroad" are different words, which is another issue, though in such cases forced attempts to find neutral synonyms are sometimes worth a giggle at tightrope attempts to balance two opposed usages. But such articles will normally use both terms in their respective enviroments, speaking of railroads in Britain and railways when talking of the United States, rather than banning the words altogether.
But that some few find color and center intolerable and some few find colour and centre intolerable should not influence most people's choice of words at all. Why should I consider using middle over centre or center only to placate spelling bigots, those who dispise one or the other of the spellings, who think a particular spelling is correct rather than merely conventional? And who else but spelling bigots care about the matter? Books appear world wide with words spelled variously and most people don't particularly notice the spelling in most of what they read. If the U.S. converted totally to British spelling, what real difference would it make? If Britain converted totally to U.S. spelling, what real difference would it make? People would still be writing and reading exactly the same words. Choice of a word should very rarely have to do with avoiding words that have more than one spelling. How many writers anywhere have ever normally avoided a word because it has more than one spelling?
Jallan 19:16, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Maureen. This recommendation says nothing about words with different meanings, or different words with the same meaning. Those are entirely different issues.
The sentence, unlike the previous sentence, talks only about spellings and nothing else. Recommendations about the other issues are a different matter entirely and probably unnecessary.
But a bias against words which by accident of history have multiple spellings is objectively as arbitrary as a bias against words with double consonants or against words with the letter r. Attempting to write a passage avoiding words that have multiple spellings, or which have double consonants, or which contain the letter r are good writing exercises to encourage thinking about words and meanings and to encourage the discovery of new ways to put things. That is what such arbitrariness is good for. (And it can be very good for it.) But it should be left for such exercises.
Being concerned about words with multiple spellings is only an issue within Wikipedia because 1) Wikipedia allows different spellings for the same word within its compass and 2) because some users are at some times bothered by this inconsistancy when they notice it. Often they don't.
Yet adamsan has made clear he does not intend strong use of this rule. He is only inviting editors to consider the rule. Well, I consider what follows the word consider and reject it totally, which by that interpretation is total obedience to the rule. But that strictly literal interpretation is not adamsan's intent in creating the rule and surely not what most would consider to be following the rule. "Consider accepting Jesus as your Savior!" "Consider using sock puppets to win the argument!" "Consider giving to the Heart Fund!" "Consider writing in capital letters!". In such expressions consider is an rhetorical (and somewhat slippery) politeness, a way of alleviating the impact, but not the force, of the following recommendation. But the following recommendation still stands. And I don't feel that it lessens a harmful recommendation by preceding it with consider. One is not asking the editor only to consider. One is recommending.
Instead I rewrite radically without the rhetorical consider, taking into account adamsan's explanations:
In choosing words or expressions, where there are alternatives that are otherwise equally suitable, select one without multiple spellings.
I still disagree. This is a unique and unnatural constraint. We enter the realm of very silly political correctness, favoring preferring the spelling-neutral, even if we can only do so slightly. Why this bias?
If Wikipedia imposed a single system of spelling, we would be free of all fighting on the issue. That's one reason publishing houses and academic journals and individual publications usually do this. The difference between organization and organisation is an arbitrary, historic accident, and usually isn't worth the trouble of arguing. Far easier and convenient for almost everyone to arbitrarily impose one spelling or another and by that arbitrary and irrational and fascist restriction gain the unfettered freedom to not be concerned with debating about something as relatively unimportant and often unnoticed as the spelling.
We don't do this in Wikipedia. Wikipedia instead encourages multiple spelling systems with a bias towards a spelling systen used in the country about which an article is written (when the article is particuarly related to a single country) and otherwise generally following the spelling of the first main author of an article. There are other subtleties. But the philosophy is that multiple spellings are generally encouraged.
So conflict arises which would not arise under a system standardized on a single spelling. And had Wikipedia begun with a single spelling imposed, regardless of which one, I suspect most would accept whichever system was in place with little complaint and there would be no consensus to change. Worrying about spelling is not what most are here for and it might be much nicer to just gripe about not being able to spell the way we want instead of again and again and again having to spend time and energy defending our preferred spellings. But we do encourage multiple systems of spelling and so must accept the quarreling that goes with it. Individuals can, if they choose, simply ignore the matter, not caring about any spelling changes that might be made to their writing by others.
But suddenly, a unique rule appears, with a different philosopy, presumably to minimize the visual clashes of the different spelling systems and minimizing the arguing. The method is simple. Don't use words that have multiple spellings and then everyone will spell the same and there will be no clash of spelling systems and no arguments. Of course, in fact, nothing so drastic is possible. We don't have exact synonyms for many multiple spelling words. Some of those words are very common ones that we can't drop almost universally without seeming very stilted and artificial. But since every little bit helps, perhaps going some small way in that direction would be an improvement.
No.
A small way which would be hardly noticeable is not an improvement, if in fact we can very seldom unarguably find proper synonyms and synonymous expressions. And who wants to go a large way in that direction. (I will get into that later.)
But the price to pay, in either case, is another level of complexity to argue over.
Instead of accepting that the spellings color and cozy might appear in an article on the American west and the spellings colour and cosy in an article on modern Winchester, the editors are now supposed to also consider whether the words colo(u)r or co<s/z>y themselves should appear in either article, a consideration that goes against any previous recommended practice in Wikipedia and any recommended practice anywhere outside of Wikipedia.
Those who don't care much about spelling either way would now find the words they wrote being replaced by other words to pacify the potential spelling-warriors. Good English words like co<s/z>y would be banned from Wikipedia because one could always use something like comfortable and homely instead. Helpful lists of deprecated words would appear with appropriate synonyms and synonymous expressions beside them. Don't use color or colour unless absolutely necessary: use hue, tint, shade, chroma, glow, radiance, sheen, pallor. Never use center or center, use middle, central point, mid-point. Never use travel(l)ed, always journeyed. Never use flavo(u)r, always taste, or seasoning. Can you write a recommendation that would not reasonably be extended to this? Is this a good thing? This is what the current rule actually recommends, even as rewritten by me, without the oratorical consider. And I will not consider doing this. Do you think that others would not fight against anyone trying to impose such a general bias against normal English words? But that is what the rule calls for, replacement of word after word of standard English if synoynms can be found. That such substitutions might solve an individual spelling dispute here or there does not indicate a need for a rule encouraging such subsitutions as general practice. If two editors are so intent on forcing one or another spelling system on a particular article that the only compromise they can come to is banning words of mixed spelling from the article, I can think of another solution that would be less harmful to standard English use. Ban the editors. (Or flip a coin.) Otherwise this will spread like a virus. Article after article in this neutralized spelling with no words allowed which would break the forced neutrality that few editors have agreed on. An editor comes upon one of these articles, sees something that could be improved or should be added, unwitting actually uses a word that has more than one spelling (Horror!), and is jumped on. We now have have articles that are written using American spellings, using Canadian spellings favoring colour, using Canadian spellings favouring color, using British English spelling -ize, using British/Australian spelling -ise, and also now another set of articles in artificial word-biased spelling-neutral English in which most -o(u)r words, -l(l)- words, -re/er words, -i<s/z>e -n<s/c>e words, and (a)e words are forbidden. Word after word after word, forbidden to be used in Potato chips and in how many other articles?
In fact, differences in spelling are mostly hardly noticed. When adamsan added the new rule, did he notice that at that time the MoS already contained a mixture of spellings? How many others read the MoS and did not notice (or just grinned with amusement). I recently emended the MoS to impose a single spelling, more from a feeling that a style guide should follow its own rules than from any personal feeling that it was really necessary. Multiple spellings in a single article, despite being universally deprecated, generally don't do any harm, and are likely not to be noticed. It is notorious how difficult it is for many to notice differences in spellings within the same work, even when searching for them. How many can you spot? [3] In the current cleaned-up version only one remains, a purposeful one.
Jallan 04:58, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think I have read most of the above. Good points on all sides. Something optional for editors to consider is never obvious to everyone and is therefore worth including if it will add to the number of people who become aware of the idea. In principle I agree with adamsan on this one, but I prefer the less recommendatory alternative suggested near the end, with a further reduction in "instruction", ie rearranging to produce something like this:
"Words with multiple spellings: in choosing words or expressions, there may be value in selecting one that does not have multiple spellings where there are synonyms that are otherwise equally suitable."
Robin Patterson 23:34, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Material which is taken verbatim from another source generally deserves to noted as such. In the lead section of our style guide, attribution to The Chicago Manual of Style was removed, and I am going to restore it. Maurreen 11:52, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Jguk has replaced this:
In this regard the following quote from The Chicago Manual of Style deserves notice: Rules and regulations such as these, in the nature of the case, cannot be endowed with the fixity of rock-ribbed law. They are meant for the average case, and must be applied with a certain degree of elasticity."
with this:
But rules on style (like not starting sentences with a conjunction) are made to be broken. They are not observed rigidly and they change with time. Any guide has its limitations, and where necessary or appropriate, they are diverged from.
I diagree with this change. For one thing, it is no improvement, there is no need. For another, saying Rules are made to be broken is much stronger than saying that rules aren’t rock-ribbed law. Maurreen 19:00, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The sentiment in the quotation is universal to every style guide I am familiar with and is not in the least bit "USian" (hmm, pretty "stylish" word) and the replacement wording was much weaker. There is plenty of "Britainian" sentiment in the style guide, including all the stuff about spelling and use of quotations, for instance. The qauotation has also been in the style guide since its very first iteration. As the paragraph two below says, don't make fundamental changes (such as replacing the epigraph) without discussion. Ortolan88 19:50, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC), original author/compiler of style guide
I would also like to see the quote from / referral to an external US source removed. If necessary, a suitable replacement can be written (I'm not suggesting the replacement offered thus far is acceptable).
zoney ♣
talk 23:56, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The quotation is there as an epigraph. It is a quotation about style guides. I suggest that rather than all this fuss, someone go out and find a nice John Bull quotation that says the same thing and add it to the one from the Chicago Manual of Style. The purpose of the quotation was to set the tone for the style guide as open and casual as opposed to closed and rigid.
Is there any objection to the sentiment of that quotation? I'll repeat it here:
It is for the purposes of expressing that idea and placing the MOS in context that the quotation is included, not to establish "USian" hegemony (and yes, my "Britainian" was making fun of this silly coinage). Ortolan88 00:36, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is anyone interested in discussing Jguk's recent changes? Please see the history: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style&action=history. Maurreen 11:09, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Or see diff between the versions of 18:55 26 Nov 2004 and 11:06 27 Nov 2004.
I reject these totally. Separate changes should be discussed separately, not altogether in a package. One thing at a time, please. I totally disagree with removing references to source material. We should have more referencest, rather than less. Document your sources. There are changes within this I do agree with, but am tiring of Jguk mixing of changes of different kinds together in a package. And is it Jguk's plan that throughout the manual of style, whenever mentioned, both period and full stop must be replaced by perfiod/full stop or full stop/period or similar concatinations? I am happy with either period and full stop. Neither bothers me. And the MoS, of all places, should not display such bad style as to repeat the synonyms again and again. It's rather insulting to the intelligence of the reader. And it looks like pandering to chauvinism. Jallan 23:08, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia's article on American English: "As of 2004, nearly three out of every four English speakers are American." Maurreen 16:34, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Zoney, I have to correct you on something. You say that people in Europe who speak English as a second language tend to use British-English. I dispute that. I taught English as a foreign language (TEFL) when I was in my 20s for a few years all over Europe in private language schools. Without exception, people wanted to learn American-English. They preferred the sound of it and the spelling; and they felt it was the language of the future, and the language of business and commerce. They would sometimes get annoyed if they were offered a British teacher. As for the EU, the only reason their English-language material is in British-English is because it's written by Brits. I'm not saying British-English shouldn't be preserved by Brits (and by Wikipedia), but it shouldn't be presented as though it's the majority dialect, because that simply isn't true. Do a few Google searches if you doubt this. Here's one: the British "encyclopaedia" has 2,420,000 entries. The American "encyclopedia" has 15,800,000. Slim 17:48, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)
Because the word "period" is apparently offensive to some people, why don't we compromise on that issue somehow, and restore the differences concerning:
Because this page is so long, and because the discussion is continued below, does anyone mind if this section is archived? Maurreen 17:17, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A few people here have made comments more or less that they don't see what the big deal is. I can empathize with them to a degree. But in my view, an overblown discussion is at least better than edit wars or revert wars, for one example. I hope this comes across the right way; I mean it only as explanation. Maurreen 07:55, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Currently the Manual of Style starts with:
In this regard the following quote from The Chicago Manual of Style deserves notice: Rules and regulations such as these, in the nature of the case, cannot be endowed with the fixity of rock-ribbed law. They are meant for the average case, and must be applied with a certain degree of elasticity.
In line with the discussion above, let's see if we can write our own Wikipedia version of this. Ie a version that retains the sentiment, but without the need to make an outside reference.
I'll start off, perhaps other editors can make tweaks as they see appropriate. jguk 11:21, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I didn't say that I don't know what it means. I will clarify: I believe the author of the quote created the expression "rock-ribbed law". It is a metaphor for "absolute." Maurreen 16:43, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
OED quotation inserted by me, Ortolan88
The rules in this Manual of Style are not set down as permanent, fixed rules. They do not discuss every scenario that you will come across and must therefore be applied with elasticity. As both Wikipedia and English usage continue to develop, these rules will also change with time
I happen to dislike the CMS's quote, personally, since "rock-ribbed law" has also the implications of hoary, old, and hidebound as well. I do not think this quote should be changed lightly, however. As a possible alternative (unlikely to earn jguk's approval however) may I suggest the
final introductroy paragraph of Strunk's Elements of style?
(or better yet, rule #13 [now #17]: Use no unnecessary words.) - Amgine 18:33, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I do not understand or accept jguk's bias against external references, in an encyclopedia of all things. And I do not accept that semi-plagiarism is superior to quoting an original, especially when the point of the quotation is partly that it is well said.
That semi-plagiarism unfortunately does occur very commonly in Wikipedia is not a reason to openly encourage it.
What is not acceptable about the passage as it stands? Is it that is an external reference? There is no policy against that. Indeed, external references are encouraged. Is it that happens to be to a U.S. source? Then say no to the chauvinism that cares about such things. If not these reasons, what is bothersome about the original?
Jallan 23:34, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
jguk, how is plastic semi-plagiarism better (or more neutral(!)) than quoting the original no matter how many here might support it? Do you dislike recognizing any outside authority? If someone has written a bon mot pleasing to others, that fits into what one wishes to day, quote it.As for plenilune and argent, they are beautiful words before they are understood – I wish I could have the pleasure of meeting them for the first time again! – and how is one to know them till one does meet them? And surely the first meeting should be in a living context, and not in a dictionary, like dried flowers in a hortus siccus!
...
And the meaning of fine words cannot be made 'obvious', for it is not obvious to any one: least of all to adults, who have stopped listening to the sound because they think they know the meaning. They think argent 'means' silver. But it does not. It and silver have a reference to x or chem. Ag, but in each x is clothed in a totally different phonetic incarnation: x+y or x+z; and these do not have the same meaning, not only because they sound different and so arouse different responses, but also because they are not in fact used when talking about Ag. in the same way. It is better, I think, at any rate to begin with, to hear 'argent' as a sound only (z without x) in a poetic context, than to think 'it only means silver'. There is some chance then that you may like it for itself, and later learn to appreciate the heraldic overtones it has, in addition to its own peculiar sound, which 'silver' has not.
I think that this writing down, flattening, Bible-in-basic-English attitude is responsible for the fact that so many older children and younger people have little respect and no love for words, and very limited vocabularies – and alas! little desire left (even when they had the gift which has been stultified) to refine or enlarge them.
I agree with Ortolan and Jallan. Maurreen 07:35, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Jguk, because your preference for what you call "neutral language" appears to be at the heart of much of what you do, why don't you have that discussion?
This is not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know. Maurreen 11:49, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Because we are so closely divided, I am listing this at WP:RFC.
The disagreements concern:
Along the lines Jallan has suggested, I am breaking up the discussion. Maurreen 17:28, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Concerning quotation marks, the word "good" was removed from the following: "This is the British style. ( Fowler has good guidelines for this." Maurreen 17:28, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Comment: previous usage more appropriate as we wish to qualify the guidelines as desirable and to be followed. - Amgine 18:38, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with the sentiments expressed by Amgine and Jallan. Maurreen
It appears that jguk is the only person who supports removing the word "good" from the following: "This is the British style. ( Fowler has good guidelines for this."
Does anyone else agree with jguk on this issue? Maurreen 17:10, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
References to the word "period" were changed to "full stop (period)" or something similar. Maurreen 17:28, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Comment: "full stop" is inappropriate usage in modern English, except among grammarians. (It was until recently an element of British curriculum, and thus may be more accepted there.) To be noted, even grammarians now use the period in contractions such as Dr. and St. (saint). -
Amgine 18:46, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC) - Further research suggests full stop may be a developing usage in Brittain, Europe. -
Amgine 18:55, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Zoney, I have read through all the archives for the main style guide. I saw no comments reflecting any lack of understanding of the word "period."
Further, although Jguk keep talking about "neutrality," he has subordinated "period" to "full stop." Maurreen 07:04, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I suggest that period is defined as a full stop, eg "period (full stop)" and full stop is used throughout the rest of the document so that Americans, if they do not already know, can understand what a full stop is. If this seems odd to American readers then perhaps they can understand why period looks odd to many others. In most (all?) English speaking countries apart from the US^h^h North America, if a dot appears anywhere but at the end of a sentence then, unless it is a decimal point, it is usually called a full stop or a dot. If it is at the end of a sentence it is always a full stop. A dot is never called a period. I would not want to be an American exchange teacher called Randy, who tried to tell a class of 13 year olds in the UK or Ireland that a full stop was a period! Philip Baird Shearer 10:12, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If the issue is a matter of potentially not understanding the word "period", I'm sure there must be a smoother way to solve the problem. For example, why not use both "period" and "full stop" the first time, and link further instances of the word "period" to further explanation? Maurreen 07:32, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why not use both "period" and "full stop" the first time, and link further instances of the phrase "full stop" to further explanation?
It is not a matter of potentially not understanding the word "period", it is as zoney wrote "It is a clear symbol of US cultural (linguistical?) dominance" as the phrase "full stop" does not appear to have the same connotations on the other side of the pond why not use it instead? Philip Baird Shearer 10:10, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This:
Was changed to this:
Comment: Previous usage is preferred as it provides further resources for contributors, and more clearly explains the usage as well as providing additional examples of the usage. -
Amgine 18:40, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Amgine and Jallan. Maurreen 07:30, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone besides jguk agree with the change made about serial commas, as shown in the beginning of this section? Maurreen 17:14, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I find the new, short version much clearer than the original. Citing references may be a good thing, but put them after the explanation, something like:
As an aside, the argument about confusion only makes sense since this rule exists. Other languages, such as Dutch and Swedish, do never use a comma in such constructions. Moreover, based on the argument, you would also need to place a comma if there are only two elements. -- Han-Kwang (talk) 21:28, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By the way, I don't feel that this whole discussion is such an important issue, but I strolled in through the RfC page -- Han-Kwang (talk) 22:47, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I prefer to keep references, for reasons stated by Jallan. I also agree with Han-Kwang's suggestion of putting the references at the end of the paragraph, instead of the beginning. Maurreen 07:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Here is what The Economist's style guide has to say on the subject of commas
[5]
Additionally when discussing semi-colons [6] they stipulate
I find the comma in the example about wires looks very odd (and slightly illiterate), but that's probably down to growing up in the UK.
Anyway, I can't say that it worries me too much, but thought that a British reference might be interesting. -- KayEss 11:03, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I prefer not to weaken the style, mainly because jguk has provided insufficient justification, in my view. Maurreen 07:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I participated in a discussion on this earlier - and indeed was not alone in objecting to the blanket nature of this guideline. Generally the practice I am accustomed to, is not to use a comma before the final conjunction - unless it is necessary to avoid confusion. So in summary - I object to both versions presented above. I do not consider it necessary that we insist on the final serial comma except in cases where confusion would otherwise arise. zoney ♣ talk 13:00, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This:
Was changed to this:
Comment: although neither form is perfect, the former is at least not inaccurate or confusing. - Amgine 18:48, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The style guide isn't really purely a style guide, it's more a guide to usage abnd sometimes its recommendations are based on considerations other than good style. The only strong justification for using U.S. throughout (and I think it's a good one) is not stylistic but practical. It's easier to find U.S. using a search engine. It also happens to coincide with one fairly popular English usage in the USA. As a Brit I have absolutely no problem with that usage. The quibbles about the actual wording in the guide, I'll leave to those who care about that kind of thing. --[[User:Tony Sidaway| Tony Sidaway| Talk]] 15:08, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have to say that this seems like much ado about nothing; does it matter which one is used? As for the search engine, I just googled US, seems that form will do, too. By the way, I'm a native speaker, not from the US, but not a 'Commonwealth citizen' (whatever that is) either. (I'm Irish). Filiocht 15:19, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
For one thing, the poll jguk cites was biased anyway. He set out rationale for his proposal prominently, but rationale against was buried.
Concerning search capability, I think finding a true scientific answer could be more trouble than it's worth.
Does anyone agree with jguk on his apparent distaste for either:
Aside from the discussion about different kinds of dashes, is there advice, here or on one of the other pages, about when to use a hyphen in spelling a word? For example, I usually use a hyphen if the prefix re is attached to a word beginning with a vowel, so as not to create a false dipthong that might momentarily confuse the reader: re-elect, re-align, etc. I bring this up because I've seen an edit that, among other changes, deleted such hyphens, changing previous forms to reelected and reestablish. (Hyphens are also appropriate when the prefix could otherwise be read as creating a different word, e.g., to sign again is re-sign because resign means something else.) JamesMLane 19:42, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Good points, and some humor, too, which this page needs. :) Maurreen 08:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Archived at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style archive (spelling 3). Maurreen 10:09, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Aside from the discussion about different kinds of dashes, is there advice, here or on one of the other pages, about when to use a hyphen in spelling a word? For example, I usually use a hyphen if the prefix re is attached to a word beginning with a vowel, so as not to create a false dipthong that might momentarily confuse the reader: re-elect, re-align, etc. I bring this up because I've seen an edit that, among other changes, deleted such hyphens, changing previous forms to reelected and reestablish. (Hyphens are also appropriate when the prefix could otherwise be read as creating a different word, e.g., to sign again is re-sign because resign means something else.) JamesMLane 19:42, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Good points, and some humor, too, which this page needs. :) Maurreen 08:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
At Talk:Ampersand, User:66.32.255.51 wrote:
I replied:
Is there any previous discussion on when or if ampersands should be used instead of "and" in article text or titles? - Sean Curtin 02:09, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)
This subject was also brought up on Radiojon's User talk page. 66.245.97.5 23:14, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I would like to add the following under the section titled Italics: That foreign words always be italicized (not quoted, bold, etc.) Sean Kelly 05:51, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough. Just something I've seen a lot in writing that I feel helps create clarity, especially when the subject is a foreign word. I found it helpful to use when editing the page Reinheitsgebot, since some German words like Mass are not cognates. It also just seems to make sense, but I can see how it's just a personal preference. Sean Kelly 18:17, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Here's what my Chicago (15th ed.) says; "7.51 Italics. Italics are used for isolated words and phrases in a foreign language if they are likely to be unfamiliar to readers...7.54 Familiar foreign words. Foreign words and phrases familiar to most readers and listed in Webster are not italicized if used in an English context; they should be spelled as in Webster. German nouns, if in Webster, are lowercased. If confusion might arise, however, foreign terms are best italicized and spelled as in the original language...7.55 Italics at first occurence. If a foreign word not listed in an English dictionary is used repeatedly throughout a work, it need be italicized only on its first occurrence. If it appears only rarely, however, italics may be retained." In any case, bold, quotation marks, and such are inappropriate, and I'd favor putting that in the Manual of Style. — [[User:Knowledge Seeker| Knowledge Seeker দ ( talk)]] 23:23, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if discussion of the following is moved to a separate page?
I have filed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment about jguk's behavior. Maurreen 09:56, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sometimes it's hard (and a waste of time) to figure out what the original author used. I usually just do whatever is the majority. ( User:Omegatron#Spell_checker) Not that it really matters, but any objections to this? People seem to care a little too much about this... - Omegatron 15:18, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
Slightly tangential... but I was thinking about putting together a comparison of Chicago and Oxford style to see what the real differences are beyond the obvious spelling things. Would that be useful? — Tkinias 22:53, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
CMOS is, I believe, the source for "no one-sentence paragraphs". It condems them as "journalistic"; the idea is that a succession of single-sentence paragraphs reads like a bullet-list and not like an article. That should not be a blanket ban, of course, but something to avoid. I learned back in high school that ideal paragraph length was about 3–4 sentences, but that isn't really a useful rule—two huge complex sentences could make for a pretty long paragraph. — Tkinias 16:51, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (titles)#Classical music titles for my explanation of the accepted style for classical music titles. — Flamurai 01:53, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Is there/should there be a guideline for capitalization of corporate names? In the text of certain articles ( OpenGL, specifically), I have been changing NVIDIA to Nvidia, as I am a strong believer that we should adhere to the accepted capitalization rules instead of letting corporations hijack them for their own benefit. — Flamurai 07:30, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
I've listed The Slot article as an external link from the CamelCase article. Maurreen 16:54, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I agree. The article on Time magazine (currently at TIME) should be moved. [[User:Neutrality| Neutrality/ talk]] 18:58, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
Archived at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style archive (spelling 3). Maurreen 10:09, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I would like to add the following under the section titled Italics: That foreign words always be italicized (not quoted, bold, etc.) Sean Kelly 05:51, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough. Just something I've seen a lot in writing that I feel helps create clarity, especially when the subject is a foreign word. I found it helpful to use when editing the page Reinheitsgebot, since some German words like Mass are not cognates. It also just seems to make sense, but I can see how it's just a personal preference. Sean Kelly 18:17, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Here's what my Chicago (15th ed.) says; "7.51 Italics. Italics are used for isolated words and phrases in a foreign language if they are likely to be unfamiliar to readers...7.54 Familiar foreign words. Foreign words and phrases familiar to most readers and listed in Webster are not italicized if used in an English context; they should be spelled as in Webster. German nouns, if in Webster, are lowercased. If confusion might arise, however, foreign terms are best italicized and spelled as in the original language...7.55 Italics at first occurence. If a foreign word not listed in an English dictionary is used repeatedly throughout a work, it need be italicized only on its first occurrence. If it appears only rarely, however, italics may be retained." In any case, bold, quotation marks, and such are inappropriate, and I'd favor putting that in the Manual of Style. — [[User:Knowledge Seeker| Knowledge Seeker দ ( talk)]] 23:23, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind seeing [User:Sean Kelly|Sean Kelly]]'s suggestion implemented. I've changed quoted words to italics often enough in editing articles. It does seem to be a common departure from normal usage. The note from Chicago is also a good one. Jallan 03:26, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if discussion of the following is moved to a separate page?
I have filed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment about jguk's behavior. Maurreen 09:56, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sometimes it's hard (and a waste of time) to figure out what the original author used. I usually just do whatever is the majority. ( User:Omegatron#Spell_checker) Not that it really matters, but any objections to this? People seem to care a little too much about this... - Omegatron 15:18, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
Slightly tangential... but I was thinking about putting together a comparison of Chicago and Oxford style to see what the real differences are beyond the obvious spelling things. Would that be useful? — Tkinias 22:53, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
CMOS is, I believe, the source for "no one-sentence paragraphs". It condems them as "journalistic"; the idea is that a succession of single-sentence paragraphs reads like a bullet-list and not like an article. That should not be a blanket ban, of course, but something to avoid. I learned back in high school that ideal paragraph length was about 3–4 sentences, but that isn't really a useful rule—two huge complex sentences could make for a pretty long paragraph. — Tkinias 16:51, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (titles)#Classical music titles for my explanation of the accepted style for classical music titles. — Flamurai 01:53, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Is there/should there be a guideline for capitalization of corporate names? In the text of certain articles ( OpenGL, specifically), I have been changing NVIDIA to Nvidia, as I am a strong believer that we should adhere to the accepted capitalization rules instead of letting corporations hijack them for their own benefit. — Flamurai 07:30, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
I've listed The Slot article as an external link from the CamelCase article. Maurreen 16:54, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I agree. The article on Time magazine (currently at TIME) should be moved. [[User:Neutrality| Neutrality/ talk]] 18:58, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
The Chicago Manual of Style says for Names with unusual capitalization:
Parts of names given in full capitals on the letterhead or in the promotional material of particular organizations may be given in upper- and lowercase when referred to in other contexts (e.g., "the Rand Corporation" rather than "the RAND Corporation"). Company names that are spelled without an initial capital (e.g., drkoop.com, which is not a URL) or with a capital following a lowercase letter (e.g., eBay) should remain thus in text. For obvious reasons, however, a name beginning with a lowercase letter should not begin a sentence: if it must, it should be capitalized.
I wonder if it might not be small-capped: "IBay is a very successful business". That looks right to me. The Cambridge Guide to English Usage under capital letters notes:
Some organizations and businesses go by compound names with a capital letter in the middle, e.g. AusInfo, HarperCollins. The mid-capital is thus part of their trademark or business identity, and it defies the general practice of using a hyphen before a capital letter in mid-word (see hyphens section 1c). The practice is established in personal names such as FitzGerald and McIvor: see under Fitz- and Mac or Mc.
That last seems unassailable. If you spell FitzGerald rather than Fitzgerald, why should you baulk at OxyContin rather than Oxycontin? I'm inclined to change the MoS here using that as an example: "Trademarks in CamelCase only extend what has been accepted style in personal and corporate names like FitzGerald and McDonald's. CamelCase should normally be retained when it reflects general usage and does not hinder readability: OxyContin." That would allow for cases, that I do not forsee but may occur, where for some reason CamelCase did look awkward. From Editing Canadian English (11.58):
If a trademark – registered or unregistered – must be specified, use the owner's preferred style:
Her cold-fighting artillery was on her night table: Extra-Strength Tylenol, a box of Kleenex (the big ones), echinacea, grapefruit juice, and a Harlequin romance.
However, if the owner's style is to use lowercase, all caps, italics, or other graphic flourishes for the mark, a reference in ordinary text may be styled with standard capitalization and type treatment.
When he was 12, he seemed to live on Pop-Tarts [not pop-tarts].
Scrabble [not SCRABBLE] games at Lisa's last all night.
Jallan 03:26, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'd like some feed-back on a section I've put together on Foreing language titles at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (titles)#Foreign languages. I've been working on editing French language films and have found no consistancy to how people treat the names of foreign films. I'd like to get some consensus before I go around moving and changing everything. Thanks. -- Samuel Wantman 10:02, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In case anyone is interested, I wanted to let you know that I have reopened the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes). Maurreen 06:57, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
What do you say about a section advocating the usage of the non-breakable space? Cases I would start with are:
Please add more. BACbKA 22:55, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is still a confusing area of the style manual many editors don't understand. I think a sentence or two differentiating between the two should be added along the lines of, "Quotation marks are only used around quotations from an outside source. Italics are used in all other situations." The words as words section is not strong enough. — [[User:Flamurai| flamurai TM]] 01:30, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
A section should be added discouraging underlining. It is a holdover from the typewriter days, and in the Internet days, underlining implies links. — [[User:Flamurai| flamurai TM]] 03:55, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
Now, the tough question: Where should this section be added? Seems like a good place might be under the italics section, as italicization is almost always the proper replacement for underlining. — [[User:Flamurai| flamurai TM]] 12:48, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)s
I have reached a conundrum. Every usage guide I consult (including Wikipedia and Chicago) says that artistic, philosophical, and cultural movements are by default to be not capitalised, unless they explicitly refer to, or their name originated from, a proper noun. Yet, I see artistic movements constantly capitalised when this is not the case, e.g. "Realism", "Expressionism", "Impressionism", etc. This seems to be a particular habit among those writing about the visual arts; literary, musical, philosophical movements and so on tend to follow the "rule". Why is this??
I don't wish to get back into a revert war, but I do have some queries regarding Maurreen's latest changes. I'd be grateful if she would answer them: jguk 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A large number of Wikipedians, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was most, do not use the Oxford comma. This is not surprising. It tends to not be used by those outside North America, and tends to be used in North America. But both using and not using the Oxford comma are permitted by all forms of standard English. Commonsense would be to keep the de facto status quo of not preferring one permitted form of English over another. My queries to Maurreen, who wishes to require Wikipedians to use the Oxford comma, are: 1. Why? 2. Is she proposing that copyediting Wikipedians should actively hunt out instances where the Oxford comma is not used (which, I'd guess, number in the tens of thousands)? jguk 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Assuming Maurreen recognises that not everyone understands the usage of the word "period" as a punctuation mark, what does Maurreen have against clarifying the word for British and Irish users. Maybe we could try "period (full stop)" if Maurreen does not like the British/Irish English word to go first? jguk 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"but I do agree with the deletion, as it seems silly to keep on saying period/full stop. Everyone knows what a period is. While we shouldn't assume readers of this page are linguists, we also shouldn't assume they're stupid." Slim 09:40, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC) So if I replace every instance of period with full stop, as everyone knows what a full stop is, and while we shouldn't assume readers of this page are linguists, we also shouldn't assume they're stupid, you will not object? Did you read Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes)#Period? Philip Baird Shearer 11:37, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm still not clear as to why it is meant to be easier to search under "U.S." rather than "US". Google searches, for instances, find references to the US written either way regardless of whether the stops are inserted. If I could understand the rationale, maybe I'd accept the policy Maurreen has (re-)inserted. At present, all I can see that that policy does is make articles that otherwise adopt the convention of not having stops between initials look inconsistent. jguk 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have copied the comments and questions from jguk and Jmabel to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes), and I answered jguk there.
Jguk has suggested on my talk page that he and I "not re-address the issue for a while, and let other Wikipedians add their commments." I am willing to do that. Maurreen 19:24, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I feel we should stop referring to American English v. British English. English is used as a first language in Australia, Canada, England, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa, Scotland, the U.S., and Wales, plus smaller outposts. Although a lot of written English-English and Scottish-English is the same, for example, written Scottish-English tends to follow the Oxford English Dictionary, and so will use -ize endings, and yet whenever I read about so-called British-English, I see -ise endings being recommended. I feel that some of the editors working on Wikipedia are basing their knowledge of British-English on what newspapers in England do, but newspaper style guides are often quite different from ordinary usage. In Canada, for example, they are completely different. And in the UK, a newspaper published in London will use quite different rules to the ones taught to a child in Scotland.
I'm not proposing we do a detailed analysis of Commonwealth and American usage because it would be close to impossible, but I feel we shouldn't simply assume there are two kinds of English, one American and one British. It would be preferable always to give a couple of examples when we talk about different usage, depending on context. For example, "check" as used in the U.S. and Canada, or "cheque" as used in Australia, New Zealand and Canadian newspapers, and so on. Slim 22:49, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)
Hi James, it wasn't me who deleted all the references to "full stop," but I do agree with the deletion, as it seems silly to keep on saying period/full stop. Everyone knows what a period is. While we shouldn't assume readers of this page are linguists, we also shouldn't assume they're stupid. Also, I reinserted America and Canada in the example about the spelling of center, instead of North America, because Canada and American spelling and other usage are sometimes quite different, so the two shouldn't be equated. Many English speakers in Canada do, as a matter of fact, spell center as "center," although some Canadian newspaper style guides spell it "centre." As I said above, I feel we should stop assuming there are two kinds of English. English is used in over 70 countries as a first or second language, and within the UK alone, punctuation, pronunciation and sometimes spelling differ between, say, Scotland and England. Commonwealth English wouldn't work because Canada is the Commonwealth, yet doesn't have the same usage as, say, Australia. I don't see that there's a need to use these categories in the Manual of Style. Examples tell people what they need to know, I feel. Slim 09:40, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)
Slim, not everyone understands Americanisms. Period. (or is that Full Stop?)
On the "International English" front, Maurreen's right, we should not use that term. The style guide should note that any form of standard English may be used in Wikipedia as long as it is used consistently within an article. It should recommend that when terms/words are used that are not universally understood they are either replaced with terms/words that are universally understood, or alternatively are explained. It should recommend (solely for the purposes of trying to avoid edit wars), that where a place, person or subject is linked closely to any one region that an article on that place, person or subject is written a form of standard English that is used in that place. And that is all.
Unfortunately the style guide does not yet recommend this. Though the inconsistency can be fun;) For instance, it does mean I can slate Slim mercilessly for appalling punctuation :)) (see the style guide recommendations on where to place inverted commas!) jguk 17:32, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Is there a preferred form for gender when speaking in the abstract? It seems like it should be at least consistent within the article. Thanks. Planders 06:05, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Example:
We need guidelines about equations. Some people are treating equations in articles as the continuation of the sentence even though they are on a different line (embedded math tags look really bad), which leads to a comma or period at the end of the equation. I feel this is confusing to the reader, who wonders where the dropped multiplication operand is...
My suggestion is to write equations stand-alone and introduce them mostly through colons. Do not treat them as part of the sentence. I did not want to start a fruitless edit war, so I looked here for guidelines. And found zilch.
Comments?
Urhixidur 03:18, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)
This is a matter best discussed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics, not here, jguk 05:59, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is currently a bit of controversy over whether Wikipedia writers should follow AP conventions or Strunk and White's conventions for dealing with possessives of words that end in 's'. For example, is it "Texas' Law" or "Texas's Law"? It would be nice if the Wikipedia Manual of Style could provide some guidance on this. Some articles have been reverted back and forth many times due to this controversy.
Using either "s's" or "s'" is standard English - there's no reason for us to prefer one form over another. I don't see why there should be a controversy - unless those who prefer one form over another seek to impose their views on those who prefer the other form. Use whatever seems sensible at the time. jguk 23:51, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
BTW, it looks like this issue was already discussed here back in July, but nothing came of it: Talk Archive 6. Kaldari 02:20, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Usage and spelling contains a recommendation about words with variant spellings where their spellings are typical of different forms of English:
If the spelling appears within the article text, also consider a consistent synonym such as focus or middle rather than center/centre.
The sentence fist appeared on June 29 of this year, added by Adamsan. [1] There is no related discussion on the talk pages of that period. I myself first noticed it on October 18 when looking through Maureen's draft trim. I was surprised that I had not noticed it before. My comment was:
This advice is horrendous! Is there another style guide in the world that would suggest one should reconsider using normal, everyday English words because they have more than one common spelling? The result of this, if people paid any attention, would be a non-standard Wikipedia dialect of English, limited to spelling-neutral vocabulary. Better to go with a fixed spelling, whether US or Britsh or whatever, than this! [2]
Maureen suggested, quite rightly, that we not deal with substantive changes when considering the draft trim, and I let the matter pass at that time.
I believe the sentence should be removed because:
Is there any support for retaining this rule?
Jallan 04:34, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I disagree that it encourages the use of 'bogus, neutered English' as surely all words in a Wikipedian's standard lexicon are as 'authentic' as each other? It is up to the editor's personal choice as to the vocabulary he uses so whether or not people 'giggle' at it is a subjective decision. Is 'hue' really an intrinsicly funny word or does it have a valid role to play in certain sentences? Additionally I stressed that only consideration should be given as the advice can work in certain cases. I am not suggesting that Sulphur/Sulfur be moved to Brimstone but I note that Railroad and Railway redirect to Rail Transport. Some may giggle at the choice, but the practice of choosing consistent synonyms clearly exists and should be managed in some way.
Nor am I suggesting that all articles be rewritten in neutrally-spelt English, merely that the use of this system may in some cases reduce conflict in already contentious topics.
Is there any style guide that has to cope with numerous different regional orthographies? The wiki MoS has evolved in the face of differring styles from around the world whilst the style guides I have used in the past have been targeted at users of British or American English only. If we are breaking new ground in the subject by producing a style guide for all then past examples are invalid on this subject.
I think the example of the conflicts at White Guilt has more to do with the editor's choice of a poor synonym rather than a fault with the whole concept of choosing different words to make the text easier on the reader's eye. If colored/coloured is really the best word to choose then it should be used and spelt consistently.
As I say, I worded this as advice, that consideration should be given to the idea. No more than that. If the implementation needs tightening then I would be pleased to join in any effort to do this but I feel the idea has merit and although the style guide didn't mention it, this practice is occurring and needs to be acknowledged or things really will start happening in the manner of the Doomsday scenario Jallan describes. adamsan 09:07, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree that there are wider issues here though. adamsan 18:10, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree that when it comes to things that need their own page titles then any attempt to regularise orthography fails horribly. And I am not suggesting that we do a Wiki-wide Find and Replace, like globally changing 'colour' to 'hue'; that would indeed be ridiculous. What I was hoping to achieve was to avoid low-level spelling conflicts when less important words like 'center' get needlessly changed to 'centre' in articles on..I don't know... Grasshoppers or something. By encouraging use of consistent synonyms (and thesaurus.com lists about 30 for centre as a noun alone) I hope that the wiki can produce articles where editing time is not wasted arguing about spelling. A possible side benefit is that editors will use more varied language, thereby widening everyone's vocabulary! Hooray! :-) adamsan 19:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A recommendation only to "consider" is hardly a recommendation. It could just as well be replaced by its opposite:
But if the spelling appears within the article text, normally it is not necessary to consider a consistent synonym such as focus or middle rather than center/centre.
This strongly implies that in some cases such consideration might have value (which is true) and appears to be closer to adamsan's intent as stated than what was written. I would find this far more acceptable.
But is there use in stating something so obvious when the number of times when it can be valuably employed are few and specialized and probably obvious.
"Railway" and "railroad" are different words, which is another issue, though in such cases forced attempts to find neutral synonyms are sometimes worth a giggle at tightrope attempts to balance two opposed usages. But such articles will normally use both terms in their respective enviroments, speaking of railroads in Britain and railways when talking of the United States, rather than banning the words altogether.
But that some few find color and center intolerable and some few find colour and centre intolerable should not influence most people's choice of words at all. Why should I consider using middle over centre or center only to placate spelling bigots, those who dispise one or the other of the spellings, who think a particular spelling is correct rather than merely conventional? And who else but spelling bigots care about the matter? Books appear world wide with words spelled variously and most people don't particularly notice the spelling in most of what they read. If the U.S. converted totally to British spelling, what real difference would it make? If Britain converted totally to U.S. spelling, what real difference would it make? People would still be writing and reading exactly the same words. Choice of a word should very rarely have to do with avoiding words that have more than one spelling. How many writers anywhere have ever normally avoided a word because it has more than one spelling?
Jallan 19:16, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Maureen. This recommendation says nothing about words with different meanings, or different words with the same meaning. Those are entirely different issues.
The sentence, unlike the previous sentence, talks only about spellings and nothing else. Recommendations about the other issues are a different matter entirely and probably unnecessary.
But a bias against words which by accident of history have multiple spellings is objectively as arbitrary as a bias against words with double consonants or against words with the letter r. Attempting to write a passage avoiding words that have multiple spellings, or which have double consonants, or which contain the letter r are good writing exercises to encourage thinking about words and meanings and to encourage the discovery of new ways to put things. That is what such arbitrariness is good for. (And it can be very good for it.) But it should be left for such exercises.
Being concerned about words with multiple spellings is only an issue within Wikipedia because 1) Wikipedia allows different spellings for the same word within its compass and 2) because some users are at some times bothered by this inconsistancy when they notice it. Often they don't.
Yet adamsan has made clear he does not intend strong use of this rule. He is only inviting editors to consider the rule. Well, I consider what follows the word consider and reject it totally, which by that interpretation is total obedience to the rule. But that strictly literal interpretation is not adamsan's intent in creating the rule and surely not what most would consider to be following the rule. "Consider accepting Jesus as your Savior!" "Consider using sock puppets to win the argument!" "Consider giving to the Heart Fund!" "Consider writing in capital letters!". In such expressions consider is an rhetorical (and somewhat slippery) politeness, a way of alleviating the impact, but not the force, of the following recommendation. But the following recommendation still stands. And I don't feel that it lessens a harmful recommendation by preceding it with consider. One is not asking the editor only to consider. One is recommending.
Instead I rewrite radically without the rhetorical consider, taking into account adamsan's explanations:
In choosing words or expressions, where there are alternatives that are otherwise equally suitable, select one without multiple spellings.
I still disagree. This is a unique and unnatural constraint. We enter the realm of very silly political correctness, favoring preferring the spelling-neutral, even if we can only do so slightly. Why this bias?
If Wikipedia imposed a single system of spelling, we would be free of all fighting on the issue. That's one reason publishing houses and academic journals and individual publications usually do this. The difference between organization and organisation is an arbitrary, historic accident, and usually isn't worth the trouble of arguing. Far easier and convenient for almost everyone to arbitrarily impose one spelling or another and by that arbitrary and irrational and fascist restriction gain the unfettered freedom to not be concerned with debating about something as relatively unimportant and often unnoticed as the spelling.
We don't do this in Wikipedia. Wikipedia instead encourages multiple spelling systems with a bias towards a spelling systen used in the country about which an article is written (when the article is particuarly related to a single country) and otherwise generally following the spelling of the first main author of an article. There are other subtleties. But the philosophy is that multiple spellings are generally encouraged.
So conflict arises which would not arise under a system standardized on a single spelling. And had Wikipedia begun with a single spelling imposed, regardless of which one, I suspect most would accept whichever system was in place with little complaint and there would be no consensus to change. Worrying about spelling is not what most are here for and it might be much nicer to just gripe about not being able to spell the way we want instead of again and again and again having to spend time and energy defending our preferred spellings. But we do encourage multiple systems of spelling and so must accept the quarreling that goes with it. Individuals can, if they choose, simply ignore the matter, not caring about any spelling changes that might be made to their writing by others.
But suddenly, a unique rule appears, with a different philosopy, presumably to minimize the visual clashes of the different spelling systems and minimizing the arguing. The method is simple. Don't use words that have multiple spellings and then everyone will spell the same and there will be no clash of spelling systems and no arguments. Of course, in fact, nothing so drastic is possible. We don't have exact synonyms for many multiple spelling words. Some of those words are very common ones that we can't drop almost universally without seeming very stilted and artificial. But since every little bit helps, perhaps going some small way in that direction would be an improvement.
No.
A small way which would be hardly noticeable is not an improvement, if in fact we can very seldom unarguably find proper synonyms and synonymous expressions. And who wants to go a large way in that direction. (I will get into that later.)
But the price to pay, in either case, is another level of complexity to argue over.
Instead of accepting that the spellings color and cozy might appear in an article on the American west and the spellings colour and cosy in an article on modern Winchester, the editors are now supposed to also consider whether the words colo(u)r or co<s/z>y themselves should appear in either article, a consideration that goes against any previous recommended practice in Wikipedia and any recommended practice anywhere outside of Wikipedia.
Those who don't care much about spelling either way would now find the words they wrote being replaced by other words to pacify the potential spelling-warriors. Good English words like co<s/z>y would be banned from Wikipedia because one could always use something like comfortable and homely instead. Helpful lists of deprecated words would appear with appropriate synonyms and synonymous expressions beside them. Don't use color or colour unless absolutely necessary: use hue, tint, shade, chroma, glow, radiance, sheen, pallor. Never use center or center, use middle, central point, mid-point. Never use travel(l)ed, always journeyed. Never use flavo(u)r, always taste, or seasoning. Can you write a recommendation that would not reasonably be extended to this? Is this a good thing? This is what the current rule actually recommends, even as rewritten by me, without the oratorical consider. And I will not consider doing this. Do you think that others would not fight against anyone trying to impose such a general bias against normal English words? But that is what the rule calls for, replacement of word after word of standard English if synoynms can be found. That such substitutions might solve an individual spelling dispute here or there does not indicate a need for a rule encouraging such subsitutions as general practice. If two editors are so intent on forcing one or another spelling system on a particular article that the only compromise they can come to is banning words of mixed spelling from the article, I can think of another solution that would be less harmful to standard English use. Ban the editors. (Or flip a coin.) Otherwise this will spread like a virus. Article after article in this neutralized spelling with no words allowed which would break the forced neutrality that few editors have agreed on. An editor comes upon one of these articles, sees something that could be improved or should be added, unwitting actually uses a word that has more than one spelling (Horror!), and is jumped on. We now have have articles that are written using American spellings, using Canadian spellings favoring colour, using Canadian spellings favouring color, using British English spelling -ize, using British/Australian spelling -ise, and also now another set of articles in artificial word-biased spelling-neutral English in which most -o(u)r words, -l(l)- words, -re/er words, -i<s/z>e -n<s/c>e words, and (a)e words are forbidden. Word after word after word, forbidden to be used in Potato chips and in how many other articles?
In fact, differences in spelling are mostly hardly noticed. When adamsan added the new rule, did he notice that at that time the MoS already contained a mixture of spellings? How many others read the MoS and did not notice (or just grinned with amusement). I recently emended the MoS to impose a single spelling, more from a feeling that a style guide should follow its own rules than from any personal feeling that it was really necessary. Multiple spellings in a single article, despite being universally deprecated, generally don't do any harm, and are likely not to be noticed. It is notorious how difficult it is for many to notice differences in spellings within the same work, even when searching for them. How many can you spot? [3] In the current cleaned-up version only one remains, a purposeful one.
Jallan 04:58, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think I have read most of the above. Good points on all sides. Something optional for editors to consider is never obvious to everyone and is therefore worth including if it will add to the number of people who become aware of the idea. In principle I agree with adamsan on this one, but I prefer the less recommendatory alternative suggested near the end, with a further reduction in "instruction", ie rearranging to produce something like this:
"Words with multiple spellings: in choosing words or expressions, there may be value in selecting one that does not have multiple spellings where there are synonyms that are otherwise equally suitable."
Robin Patterson 23:34, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Material which is taken verbatim from another source generally deserves to noted as such. In the lead section of our style guide, attribution to The Chicago Manual of Style was removed, and I am going to restore it. Maurreen 11:52, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Jguk has replaced this:
In this regard the following quote from The Chicago Manual of Style deserves notice: Rules and regulations such as these, in the nature of the case, cannot be endowed with the fixity of rock-ribbed law. They are meant for the average case, and must be applied with a certain degree of elasticity."
with this:
But rules on style (like not starting sentences with a conjunction) are made to be broken. They are not observed rigidly and they change with time. Any guide has its limitations, and where necessary or appropriate, they are diverged from.
I diagree with this change. For one thing, it is no improvement, there is no need. For another, saying Rules are made to be broken is much stronger than saying that rules aren’t rock-ribbed law. Maurreen 19:00, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The sentiment in the quotation is universal to every style guide I am familiar with and is not in the least bit "USian" (hmm, pretty "stylish" word) and the replacement wording was much weaker. There is plenty of "Britainian" sentiment in the style guide, including all the stuff about spelling and use of quotations, for instance. The qauotation has also been in the style guide since its very first iteration. As the paragraph two below says, don't make fundamental changes (such as replacing the epigraph) without discussion. Ortolan88 19:50, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC), original author/compiler of style guide
I would also like to see the quote from / referral to an external US source removed. If necessary, a suitable replacement can be written (I'm not suggesting the replacement offered thus far is acceptable).
zoney ♣
talk 23:56, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The quotation is there as an epigraph. It is a quotation about style guides. I suggest that rather than all this fuss, someone go out and find a nice John Bull quotation that says the same thing and add it to the one from the Chicago Manual of Style. The purpose of the quotation was to set the tone for the style guide as open and casual as opposed to closed and rigid.
Is there any objection to the sentiment of that quotation? I'll repeat it here:
It is for the purposes of expressing that idea and placing the MOS in context that the quotation is included, not to establish "USian" hegemony (and yes, my "Britainian" was making fun of this silly coinage). Ortolan88 00:36, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is anyone interested in discussing Jguk's recent changes? Please see the history: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style&action=history. Maurreen 11:09, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Or see diff between the versions of 18:55 26 Nov 2004 and 11:06 27 Nov 2004.
I reject these totally. Separate changes should be discussed separately, not altogether in a package. One thing at a time, please. I totally disagree with removing references to source material. We should have more referencest, rather than less. Document your sources. There are changes within this I do agree with, but am tiring of Jguk mixing of changes of different kinds together in a package. And is it Jguk's plan that throughout the manual of style, whenever mentioned, both period and full stop must be replaced by perfiod/full stop or full stop/period or similar concatinations? I am happy with either period and full stop. Neither bothers me. And the MoS, of all places, should not display such bad style as to repeat the synonyms again and again. It's rather insulting to the intelligence of the reader. And it looks like pandering to chauvinism. Jallan 23:08, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia's article on American English: "As of 2004, nearly three out of every four English speakers are American." Maurreen 16:34, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Zoney, I have to correct you on something. You say that people in Europe who speak English as a second language tend to use British-English. I dispute that. I taught English as a foreign language (TEFL) when I was in my 20s for a few years all over Europe in private language schools. Without exception, people wanted to learn American-English. They preferred the sound of it and the spelling; and they felt it was the language of the future, and the language of business and commerce. They would sometimes get annoyed if they were offered a British teacher. As for the EU, the only reason their English-language material is in British-English is because it's written by Brits. I'm not saying British-English shouldn't be preserved by Brits (and by Wikipedia), but it shouldn't be presented as though it's the majority dialect, because that simply isn't true. Do a few Google searches if you doubt this. Here's one: the British "encyclopaedia" has 2,420,000 entries. The American "encyclopedia" has 15,800,000. Slim 17:48, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)
Because the word "period" is apparently offensive to some people, why don't we compromise on that issue somehow, and restore the differences concerning:
Because this page is so long, and because the discussion is continued below, does anyone mind if this section is archived? Maurreen 17:17, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A few people here have made comments more or less that they don't see what the big deal is. I can empathize with them to a degree. But in my view, an overblown discussion is at least better than edit wars or revert wars, for one example. I hope this comes across the right way; I mean it only as explanation. Maurreen 07:55, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Currently the Manual of Style starts with:
In this regard the following quote from The Chicago Manual of Style deserves notice: Rules and regulations such as these, in the nature of the case, cannot be endowed with the fixity of rock-ribbed law. They are meant for the average case, and must be applied with a certain degree of elasticity.
In line with the discussion above, let's see if we can write our own Wikipedia version of this. Ie a version that retains the sentiment, but without the need to make an outside reference.
I'll start off, perhaps other editors can make tweaks as they see appropriate. jguk 11:21, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I didn't say that I don't know what it means. I will clarify: I believe the author of the quote created the expression "rock-ribbed law". It is a metaphor for "absolute." Maurreen 16:43, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
OED quotation inserted by me, Ortolan88
The rules in this Manual of Style are not set down as permanent, fixed rules. They do not discuss every scenario that you will come across and must therefore be applied with elasticity. As both Wikipedia and English usage continue to develop, these rules will also change with time
I happen to dislike the CMS's quote, personally, since "rock-ribbed law" has also the implications of hoary, old, and hidebound as well. I do not think this quote should be changed lightly, however. As a possible alternative (unlikely to earn jguk's approval however) may I suggest the
final introductroy paragraph of Strunk's Elements of style?
(or better yet, rule #13 [now #17]: Use no unnecessary words.) - Amgine 18:33, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I do not understand or accept jguk's bias against external references, in an encyclopedia of all things. And I do not accept that semi-plagiarism is superior to quoting an original, especially when the point of the quotation is partly that it is well said.
That semi-plagiarism unfortunately does occur very commonly in Wikipedia is not a reason to openly encourage it.
What is not acceptable about the passage as it stands? Is it that is an external reference? There is no policy against that. Indeed, external references are encouraged. Is it that happens to be to a U.S. source? Then say no to the chauvinism that cares about such things. If not these reasons, what is bothersome about the original?
Jallan 23:34, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
jguk, how is plastic semi-plagiarism better (or more neutral(!)) than quoting the original no matter how many here might support it? Do you dislike recognizing any outside authority? If someone has written a bon mot pleasing to others, that fits into what one wishes to day, quote it.As for plenilune and argent, they are beautiful words before they are understood – I wish I could have the pleasure of meeting them for the first time again! – and how is one to know them till one does meet them? And surely the first meeting should be in a living context, and not in a dictionary, like dried flowers in a hortus siccus!
...
And the meaning of fine words cannot be made 'obvious', for it is not obvious to any one: least of all to adults, who have stopped listening to the sound because they think they know the meaning. They think argent 'means' silver. But it does not. It and silver have a reference to x or chem. Ag, but in each x is clothed in a totally different phonetic incarnation: x+y or x+z; and these do not have the same meaning, not only because they sound different and so arouse different responses, but also because they are not in fact used when talking about Ag. in the same way. It is better, I think, at any rate to begin with, to hear 'argent' as a sound only (z without x) in a poetic context, than to think 'it only means silver'. There is some chance then that you may like it for itself, and later learn to appreciate the heraldic overtones it has, in addition to its own peculiar sound, which 'silver' has not.
I think that this writing down, flattening, Bible-in-basic-English attitude is responsible for the fact that so many older children and younger people have little respect and no love for words, and very limited vocabularies – and alas! little desire left (even when they had the gift which has been stultified) to refine or enlarge them.
I agree with Ortolan and Jallan. Maurreen 07:35, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Jguk, because your preference for what you call "neutral language" appears to be at the heart of much of what you do, why don't you have that discussion?
This is not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know. Maurreen 11:49, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Because we are so closely divided, I am listing this at WP:RFC.
The disagreements concern:
Along the lines Jallan has suggested, I am breaking up the discussion. Maurreen 17:28, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Concerning quotation marks, the word "good" was removed from the following: "This is the British style. ( Fowler has good guidelines for this." Maurreen 17:28, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Comment: previous usage more appropriate as we wish to qualify the guidelines as desirable and to be followed. - Amgine 18:38, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with the sentiments expressed by Amgine and Jallan. Maurreen
It appears that jguk is the only person who supports removing the word "good" from the following: "This is the British style. ( Fowler has good guidelines for this."
Does anyone else agree with jguk on this issue? Maurreen 17:10, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
References to the word "period" were changed to "full stop (period)" or something similar. Maurreen 17:28, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Comment: "full stop" is inappropriate usage in modern English, except among grammarians. (It was until recently an element of British curriculum, and thus may be more accepted there.) To be noted, even grammarians now use the period in contractions such as Dr. and St. (saint). -
Amgine 18:46, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC) - Further research suggests full stop may be a developing usage in Brittain, Europe. -
Amgine 18:55, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Zoney, I have read through all the archives for the main style guide. I saw no comments reflecting any lack of understanding of the word "period."
Further, although Jguk keep talking about "neutrality," he has subordinated "period" to "full stop." Maurreen 07:04, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I suggest that period is defined as a full stop, eg "period (full stop)" and full stop is used throughout the rest of the document so that Americans, if they do not already know, can understand what a full stop is. If this seems odd to American readers then perhaps they can understand why period looks odd to many others. In most (all?) English speaking countries apart from the US^h^h North America, if a dot appears anywhere but at the end of a sentence then, unless it is a decimal point, it is usually called a full stop or a dot. If it is at the end of a sentence it is always a full stop. A dot is never called a period. I would not want to be an American exchange teacher called Randy, who tried to tell a class of 13 year olds in the UK or Ireland that a full stop was a period! Philip Baird Shearer 10:12, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If the issue is a matter of potentially not understanding the word "period", I'm sure there must be a smoother way to solve the problem. For example, why not use both "period" and "full stop" the first time, and link further instances of the word "period" to further explanation? Maurreen 07:32, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why not use both "period" and "full stop" the first time, and link further instances of the phrase "full stop" to further explanation?
It is not a matter of potentially not understanding the word "period", it is as zoney wrote "It is a clear symbol of US cultural (linguistical?) dominance" as the phrase "full stop" does not appear to have the same connotations on the other side of the pond why not use it instead? Philip Baird Shearer 10:10, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This:
Was changed to this:
Comment: Previous usage is preferred as it provides further resources for contributors, and more clearly explains the usage as well as providing additional examples of the usage. -
Amgine 18:40, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Amgine and Jallan. Maurreen 07:30, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone besides jguk agree with the change made about serial commas, as shown in the beginning of this section? Maurreen 17:14, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I find the new, short version much clearer than the original. Citing references may be a good thing, but put them after the explanation, something like:
As an aside, the argument about confusion only makes sense since this rule exists. Other languages, such as Dutch and Swedish, do never use a comma in such constructions. Moreover, based on the argument, you would also need to place a comma if there are only two elements. -- Han-Kwang (talk) 21:28, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By the way, I don't feel that this whole discussion is such an important issue, but I strolled in through the RfC page -- Han-Kwang (talk) 22:47, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I prefer to keep references, for reasons stated by Jallan. I also agree with Han-Kwang's suggestion of putting the references at the end of the paragraph, instead of the beginning. Maurreen 07:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Here is what The Economist's style guide has to say on the subject of commas
[5]
Additionally when discussing semi-colons [6] they stipulate
I find the comma in the example about wires looks very odd (and slightly illiterate), but that's probably down to growing up in the UK.
Anyway, I can't say that it worries me too much, but thought that a British reference might be interesting. -- KayEss 11:03, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I prefer not to weaken the style, mainly because jguk has provided insufficient justification, in my view. Maurreen 07:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I participated in a discussion on this earlier - and indeed was not alone in objecting to the blanket nature of this guideline. Generally the practice I am accustomed to, is not to use a comma before the final conjunction - unless it is necessary to avoid confusion. So in summary - I object to both versions presented above. I do not consider it necessary that we insist on the final serial comma except in cases where confusion would otherwise arise. zoney ♣ talk 13:00, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This:
Was changed to this:
Comment: although neither form is perfect, the former is at least not inaccurate or confusing. - Amgine 18:48, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The style guide isn't really purely a style guide, it's more a guide to usage abnd sometimes its recommendations are based on considerations other than good style. The only strong justification for using U.S. throughout (and I think it's a good one) is not stylistic but practical. It's easier to find U.S. using a search engine. It also happens to coincide with one fairly popular English usage in the USA. As a Brit I have absolutely no problem with that usage. The quibbles about the actual wording in the guide, I'll leave to those who care about that kind of thing. --[[User:Tony Sidaway| Tony Sidaway| Talk]] 15:08, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have to say that this seems like much ado about nothing; does it matter which one is used? As for the search engine, I just googled US, seems that form will do, too. By the way, I'm a native speaker, not from the US, but not a 'Commonwealth citizen' (whatever that is) either. (I'm Irish). Filiocht 15:19, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
For one thing, the poll jguk cites was biased anyway. He set out rationale for his proposal prominently, but rationale against was buried.
Concerning search capability, I think finding a true scientific answer could be more trouble than it's worth.
Does anyone agree with jguk on his apparent distaste for either:
Aside from the discussion about different kinds of dashes, is there advice, here or on one of the other pages, about when to use a hyphen in spelling a word? For example, I usually use a hyphen if the prefix re is attached to a word beginning with a vowel, so as not to create a false dipthong that might momentarily confuse the reader: re-elect, re-align, etc. I bring this up because I've seen an edit that, among other changes, deleted such hyphens, changing previous forms to reelected and reestablish. (Hyphens are also appropriate when the prefix could otherwise be read as creating a different word, e.g., to sign again is re-sign because resign means something else.) JamesMLane 19:42, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Good points, and some humor, too, which this page needs. :) Maurreen 08:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Archived at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style archive (spelling 3). Maurreen 10:09, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Aside from the discussion about different kinds of dashes, is there advice, here or on one of the other pages, about when to use a hyphen in spelling a word? For example, I usually use a hyphen if the prefix re is attached to a word beginning with a vowel, so as not to create a false dipthong that might momentarily confuse the reader: re-elect, re-align, etc. I bring this up because I've seen an edit that, among other changes, deleted such hyphens, changing previous forms to reelected and reestablish. (Hyphens are also appropriate when the prefix could otherwise be read as creating a different word, e.g., to sign again is re-sign because resign means something else.) JamesMLane 19:42, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Good points, and some humor, too, which this page needs. :) Maurreen 08:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
At Talk:Ampersand, User:66.32.255.51 wrote:
I replied:
Is there any previous discussion on when or if ampersands should be used instead of "and" in article text or titles? - Sean Curtin 02:09, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)
This subject was also brought up on Radiojon's User talk page. 66.245.97.5 23:14, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I would like to add the following under the section titled Italics: That foreign words always be italicized (not quoted, bold, etc.) Sean Kelly 05:51, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough. Just something I've seen a lot in writing that I feel helps create clarity, especially when the subject is a foreign word. I found it helpful to use when editing the page Reinheitsgebot, since some German words like Mass are not cognates. It also just seems to make sense, but I can see how it's just a personal preference. Sean Kelly 18:17, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Here's what my Chicago (15th ed.) says; "7.51 Italics. Italics are used for isolated words and phrases in a foreign language if they are likely to be unfamiliar to readers...7.54 Familiar foreign words. Foreign words and phrases familiar to most readers and listed in Webster are not italicized if used in an English context; they should be spelled as in Webster. German nouns, if in Webster, are lowercased. If confusion might arise, however, foreign terms are best italicized and spelled as in the original language...7.55 Italics at first occurence. If a foreign word not listed in an English dictionary is used repeatedly throughout a work, it need be italicized only on its first occurrence. If it appears only rarely, however, italics may be retained." In any case, bold, quotation marks, and such are inappropriate, and I'd favor putting that in the Manual of Style. — [[User:Knowledge Seeker| Knowledge Seeker দ ( talk)]] 23:23, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if discussion of the following is moved to a separate page?
I have filed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment about jguk's behavior. Maurreen 09:56, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sometimes it's hard (and a waste of time) to figure out what the original author used. I usually just do whatever is the majority. ( User:Omegatron#Spell_checker) Not that it really matters, but any objections to this? People seem to care a little too much about this... - Omegatron 15:18, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
Slightly tangential... but I was thinking about putting together a comparison of Chicago and Oxford style to see what the real differences are beyond the obvious spelling things. Would that be useful? — Tkinias 22:53, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
CMOS is, I believe, the source for "no one-sentence paragraphs". It condems them as "journalistic"; the idea is that a succession of single-sentence paragraphs reads like a bullet-list and not like an article. That should not be a blanket ban, of course, but something to avoid. I learned back in high school that ideal paragraph length was about 3–4 sentences, but that isn't really a useful rule—two huge complex sentences could make for a pretty long paragraph. — Tkinias 16:51, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (titles)#Classical music titles for my explanation of the accepted style for classical music titles. — Flamurai 01:53, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Is there/should there be a guideline for capitalization of corporate names? In the text of certain articles ( OpenGL, specifically), I have been changing NVIDIA to Nvidia, as I am a strong believer that we should adhere to the accepted capitalization rules instead of letting corporations hijack them for their own benefit. — Flamurai 07:30, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
I've listed The Slot article as an external link from the CamelCase article. Maurreen 16:54, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I agree. The article on Time magazine (currently at TIME) should be moved. [[User:Neutrality| Neutrality/ talk]] 18:58, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
Archived at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style archive (spelling 3). Maurreen 10:09, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I would like to add the following under the section titled Italics: That foreign words always be italicized (not quoted, bold, etc.) Sean Kelly 05:51, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough. Just something I've seen a lot in writing that I feel helps create clarity, especially when the subject is a foreign word. I found it helpful to use when editing the page Reinheitsgebot, since some German words like Mass are not cognates. It also just seems to make sense, but I can see how it's just a personal preference. Sean Kelly 18:17, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Here's what my Chicago (15th ed.) says; "7.51 Italics. Italics are used for isolated words and phrases in a foreign language if they are likely to be unfamiliar to readers...7.54 Familiar foreign words. Foreign words and phrases familiar to most readers and listed in Webster are not italicized if used in an English context; they should be spelled as in Webster. German nouns, if in Webster, are lowercased. If confusion might arise, however, foreign terms are best italicized and spelled as in the original language...7.55 Italics at first occurence. If a foreign word not listed in an English dictionary is used repeatedly throughout a work, it need be italicized only on its first occurrence. If it appears only rarely, however, italics may be retained." In any case, bold, quotation marks, and such are inappropriate, and I'd favor putting that in the Manual of Style. — [[User:Knowledge Seeker| Knowledge Seeker দ ( talk)]] 23:23, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind seeing [User:Sean Kelly|Sean Kelly]]'s suggestion implemented. I've changed quoted words to italics often enough in editing articles. It does seem to be a common departure from normal usage. The note from Chicago is also a good one. Jallan 03:26, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if discussion of the following is moved to a separate page?
I have filed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment about jguk's behavior. Maurreen 09:56, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sometimes it's hard (and a waste of time) to figure out what the original author used. I usually just do whatever is the majority. ( User:Omegatron#Spell_checker) Not that it really matters, but any objections to this? People seem to care a little too much about this... - Omegatron 15:18, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
Slightly tangential... but I was thinking about putting together a comparison of Chicago and Oxford style to see what the real differences are beyond the obvious spelling things. Would that be useful? — Tkinias 22:53, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
CMOS is, I believe, the source for "no one-sentence paragraphs". It condems them as "journalistic"; the idea is that a succession of single-sentence paragraphs reads like a bullet-list and not like an article. That should not be a blanket ban, of course, but something to avoid. I learned back in high school that ideal paragraph length was about 3–4 sentences, but that isn't really a useful rule—two huge complex sentences could make for a pretty long paragraph. — Tkinias 16:51, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (titles)#Classical music titles for my explanation of the accepted style for classical music titles. — Flamurai 01:53, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Is there/should there be a guideline for capitalization of corporate names? In the text of certain articles ( OpenGL, specifically), I have been changing NVIDIA to Nvidia, as I am a strong believer that we should adhere to the accepted capitalization rules instead of letting corporations hijack them for their own benefit. — Flamurai 07:30, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
I've listed The Slot article as an external link from the CamelCase article. Maurreen 16:54, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I agree. The article on Time magazine (currently at TIME) should be moved. [[User:Neutrality| Neutrality/ talk]] 18:58, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
The Chicago Manual of Style says for Names with unusual capitalization:
Parts of names given in full capitals on the letterhead or in the promotional material of particular organizations may be given in upper- and lowercase when referred to in other contexts (e.g., "the Rand Corporation" rather than "the RAND Corporation"). Company names that are spelled without an initial capital (e.g., drkoop.com, which is not a URL) or with a capital following a lowercase letter (e.g., eBay) should remain thus in text. For obvious reasons, however, a name beginning with a lowercase letter should not begin a sentence: if it must, it should be capitalized.
I wonder if it might not be small-capped: "IBay is a very successful business". That looks right to me. The Cambridge Guide to English Usage under capital letters notes:
Some organizations and businesses go by compound names with a capital letter in the middle, e.g. AusInfo, HarperCollins. The mid-capital is thus part of their trademark or business identity, and it defies the general practice of using a hyphen before a capital letter in mid-word (see hyphens section 1c). The practice is established in personal names such as FitzGerald and McIvor: see under Fitz- and Mac or Mc.
That last seems unassailable. If you spell FitzGerald rather than Fitzgerald, why should you baulk at OxyContin rather than Oxycontin? I'm inclined to change the MoS here using that as an example: "Trademarks in CamelCase only extend what has been accepted style in personal and corporate names like FitzGerald and McDonald's. CamelCase should normally be retained when it reflects general usage and does not hinder readability: OxyContin." That would allow for cases, that I do not forsee but may occur, where for some reason CamelCase did look awkward. From Editing Canadian English (11.58):
If a trademark – registered or unregistered – must be specified, use the owner's preferred style:
Her cold-fighting artillery was on her night table: Extra-Strength Tylenol, a box of Kleenex (the big ones), echinacea, grapefruit juice, and a Harlequin romance.
However, if the owner's style is to use lowercase, all caps, italics, or other graphic flourishes for the mark, a reference in ordinary text may be styled with standard capitalization and type treatment.
When he was 12, he seemed to live on Pop-Tarts [not pop-tarts].
Scrabble [not SCRABBLE] games at Lisa's last all night.
Jallan 03:26, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'd like some feed-back on a section I've put together on Foreing language titles at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (titles)#Foreign languages. I've been working on editing French language films and have found no consistancy to how people treat the names of foreign films. I'd like to get some consensus before I go around moving and changing everything. Thanks. -- Samuel Wantman 10:02, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In case anyone is interested, I wanted to let you know that I have reopened the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes). Maurreen 06:57, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
What do you say about a section advocating the usage of the non-breakable space? Cases I would start with are:
Please add more. BACbKA 22:55, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is still a confusing area of the style manual many editors don't understand. I think a sentence or two differentiating between the two should be added along the lines of, "Quotation marks are only used around quotations from an outside source. Italics are used in all other situations." The words as words section is not strong enough. — [[User:Flamurai| flamurai TM]] 01:30, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
A section should be added discouraging underlining. It is a holdover from the typewriter days, and in the Internet days, underlining implies links. — [[User:Flamurai| flamurai TM]] 03:55, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
Now, the tough question: Where should this section be added? Seems like a good place might be under the italics section, as italicization is almost always the proper replacement for underlining. — [[User:Flamurai| flamurai TM]] 12:48, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)s
I have reached a conundrum. Every usage guide I consult (including Wikipedia and Chicago) says that artistic, philosophical, and cultural movements are by default to be not capitalised, unless they explicitly refer to, or their name originated from, a proper noun. Yet, I see artistic movements constantly capitalised when this is not the case, e.g. "Realism", "Expressionism", "Impressionism", etc. This seems to be a particular habit among those writing about the visual arts; literary, musical, philosophical movements and so on tend to follow the "rule". Why is this??
I don't wish to get back into a revert war, but I do have some queries regarding Maurreen's latest changes. I'd be grateful if she would answer them: jguk 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A large number of Wikipedians, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was most, do not use the Oxford comma. This is not surprising. It tends to not be used by those outside North America, and tends to be used in North America. But both using and not using the Oxford comma are permitted by all forms of standard English. Commonsense would be to keep the de facto status quo of not preferring one permitted form of English over another. My queries to Maurreen, who wishes to require Wikipedians to use the Oxford comma, are: 1. Why? 2. Is she proposing that copyediting Wikipedians should actively hunt out instances where the Oxford comma is not used (which, I'd guess, number in the tens of thousands)? jguk 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Assuming Maurreen recognises that not everyone understands the usage of the word "period" as a punctuation mark, what does Maurreen have against clarifying the word for British and Irish users. Maybe we could try "period (full stop)" if Maurreen does not like the British/Irish English word to go first? jguk 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"but I do agree with the deletion, as it seems silly to keep on saying period/full stop. Everyone knows what a period is. While we shouldn't assume readers of this page are linguists, we also shouldn't assume they're stupid." Slim 09:40, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC) So if I replace every instance of period with full stop, as everyone knows what a full stop is, and while we shouldn't assume readers of this page are linguists, we also shouldn't assume they're stupid, you will not object? Did you read Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes)#Period? Philip Baird Shearer 11:37, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm still not clear as to why it is meant to be easier to search under "U.S." rather than "US". Google searches, for instances, find references to the US written either way regardless of whether the stops are inserted. If I could understand the rationale, maybe I'd accept the policy Maurreen has (re-)inserted. At present, all I can see that that policy does is make articles that otherwise adopt the convention of not having stops between initials look inconsistent. jguk 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have copied the comments and questions from jguk and Jmabel to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes), and I answered jguk there.
Jguk has suggested on my talk page that he and I "not re-address the issue for a while, and let other Wikipedians add their commments." I am willing to do that. Maurreen 19:24, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I feel we should stop referring to American English v. British English. English is used as a first language in Australia, Canada, England, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa, Scotland, the U.S., and Wales, plus smaller outposts. Although a lot of written English-English and Scottish-English is the same, for example, written Scottish-English tends to follow the Oxford English Dictionary, and so will use -ize endings, and yet whenever I read about so-called British-English, I see -ise endings being recommended. I feel that some of the editors working on Wikipedia are basing their knowledge of British-English on what newspapers in England do, but newspaper style guides are often quite different from ordinary usage. In Canada, for example, they are completely different. And in the UK, a newspaper published in London will use quite different rules to the ones taught to a child in Scotland.
I'm not proposing we do a detailed analysis of Commonwealth and American usage because it would be close to impossible, but I feel we shouldn't simply assume there are two kinds of English, one American and one British. It would be preferable always to give a couple of examples when we talk about different usage, depending on context. For example, "check" as used in the U.S. and Canada, or "cheque" as used in Australia, New Zealand and Canadian newspapers, and so on. Slim 22:49, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)
Hi James, it wasn't me who deleted all the references to "full stop," but I do agree with the deletion, as it seems silly to keep on saying period/full stop. Everyone knows what a period is. While we shouldn't assume readers of this page are linguists, we also shouldn't assume they're stupid. Also, I reinserted America and Canada in the example about the spelling of center, instead of North America, because Canada and American spelling and other usage are sometimes quite different, so the two shouldn't be equated. Many English speakers in Canada do, as a matter of fact, spell center as "center," although some Canadian newspaper style guides spell it "centre." As I said above, I feel we should stop assuming there are two kinds of English. English is used in over 70 countries as a first or second language, and within the UK alone, punctuation, pronunciation and sometimes spelling differ between, say, Scotland and England. Commonwealth English wouldn't work because Canada is the Commonwealth, yet doesn't have the same usage as, say, Australia. I don't see that there's a need to use these categories in the Manual of Style. Examples tell people what they need to know, I feel. Slim 09:40, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)
Slim, not everyone understands Americanisms. Period. (or is that Full Stop?)
On the "International English" front, Maurreen's right, we should not use that term. The style guide should note that any form of standard English may be used in Wikipedia as long as it is used consistently within an article. It should recommend that when terms/words are used that are not universally understood they are either replaced with terms/words that are universally understood, or alternatively are explained. It should recommend (solely for the purposes of trying to avoid edit wars), that where a place, person or subject is linked closely to any one region that an article on that place, person or subject is written a form of standard English that is used in that place. And that is all.
Unfortunately the style guide does not yet recommend this. Though the inconsistency can be fun;) For instance, it does mean I can slate Slim mercilessly for appalling punctuation :)) (see the style guide recommendations on where to place inverted commas!) jguk 17:32, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Is there a preferred form for gender when speaking in the abstract? It seems like it should be at least consistent within the article. Thanks. Planders 06:05, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Example:
We need guidelines about equations. Some people are treating equations in articles as the continuation of the sentence even though they are on a different line (embedded math tags look really bad), which leads to a comma or period at the end of the equation. I feel this is confusing to the reader, who wonders where the dropped multiplication operand is...
My suggestion is to write equations stand-alone and introduce them mostly through colons. Do not treat them as part of the sentence. I did not want to start a fruitless edit war, so I looked here for guidelines. And found zilch.
Comments?
Urhixidur 03:18, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)
This is a matter best discussed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics, not here, jguk 05:59, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is currently a bit of controversy over whether Wikipedia writers should follow AP conventions or Strunk and White's conventions for dealing with possessives of words that end in 's'. For example, is it "Texas' Law" or "Texas's Law"? It would be nice if the Wikipedia Manual of Style could provide some guidance on this. Some articles have been reverted back and forth many times due to this controversy.
Using either "s's" or "s'" is standard English - there's no reason for us to prefer one form over another. I don't see why there should be a controversy - unless those who prefer one form over another seek to impose their views on those who prefer the other form. Use whatever seems sensible at the time. jguk 23:51, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
BTW, it looks like this issue was already discussed here back in July, but nothing came of it: Talk Archive 6. Kaldari 02:20, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)