Since this discussion has grown in scope, and I don't want to scatter my arguments among so many different replies, I'll try to set them out coherently here. (And I would appreciate if those who comment on it would not insert their comments into the text, which would defeat my purpose of writing all of this out separately.)
Wikipedia's readership is quite varied, and that is a good thing. For instance, compared with all general dead-tree encyclopedias, we have an inordinate amount of articles about TV series, pop bands and other musical groups (for some musical groups, it seems that every album has its own article; for some TV series, every major character). If we had any space limitations, such as any printed encyclopedia has, there would be heated discussions about he appropriateness of such articles – should we stick to classic encyclopedia content? or, since the "curious average man" mentioned by Atropos is nowadays more interested in Just My Imagination (Running Away with Me) (to take one pick from the list of featured articles) than in Prehistoric Georgia, should we drop the latter to accommodate the former? Luckily, we have no such space limitations. The different parts of the readership can coexist peacefully side by side; except for encyclopedia purists, no-one is going to be bothered if there are articles in Wikipedia you wouldn't find outside specialist encyclopedias in the regular book world. We should be proud that Wikipedia is so many things to so many people – a regular encyclopedia to those who want to save the space that used to be taken up by their Britannica, and a host of specialist encyclopedias to a variety of readers with more specialized interests.
Next, degrees of specialization: Are we writing for the college student or the "man in the street"? Again, since we do not have significant space limitations, that is usually not a problem. If you are someone like PocklingtonDan who is greatly interested in the Roman Army, so that you want to split the subject into detailed separate articles such as the structural, technical, campaign and political history, that's perfectly fine, go ahead. In that case, the target audience will certainly not be the "curious average man" any more, but that is OK – for the average reader, there will be the base article Roman Army; for the interested student or those with special interests who want to dig deeper, there will be the more detailed articles. No-one would ever demand to remove the more detailed articles on the ground that for all but a few readers, interest in the subject just doesn't run that deep – there is no conflict between the different audiences; the fact that there is material at the level of college textbooks does not harm the less specialized reader. The result is that, in subject areas like this, Wikipedia is a valuable resource both for college students and for someone who's just seen a History Channel program about the roman army, and now wants to know just a little bit (but not too much) more. Which is, again, a good thing, and something to be proud of.
Next, mathematical subjects – how to deal with those? Take an article like Lie group. For a certain subset of the Wikipedia audience, namely those who study college-level mathematics or physics, this is an eminently useful article. It is certainly not accessible to a general audience. Should it be deleted? So far it hasn't been, and a good thing, too. We have no space problem. The fact that this article is on Wikipedia doesn't take anything away from the "curious average man" (who will, in all but a very few cases, not even notice its existence), and it does give something to mathematically inclined Wikipedia users. In fact, many physics students (and researchers, come to that) regularly use Wikipedia when it comes to quickly looking up formulae or mathematical definitions. By including such articles, we can certainly no longer argue that all articles on Wikipedia must be in toto accessible to a general audience. Wikipedia is many things to many people, and it would seem both narrow-minded and pointless to restrict its usefulness to one part of the readership if no-one else gains by that restriction. Hence, the section in the guidelines, namely Wikipedia:Make_technical_articles_accessible, about Articles that are unavoidably technical, which says: If an article is unavoidably technical (advanced mathematics being the prime example), then so be it. The guideline also states that the technical part should at least be preceded by a more generally accessible introduction. Sadly, that does not seem to be the case for most mathematics articles yet, which is something to work on.
In all examples so far, the different readership groups have been able to co-exist without coming into conflict, either because the subject lent itself to splitting into an accessible general introduction and more specialized sub-topics ( Roman Army), or because it was so technical that a general audience would have very little interest in it beyond a brief summary such as can be given in an accessible lead, which is then followed by a much less accessible main text. I put it to you that there are some – not many – subjects where this doesn't work, namely where
What to do?
So what's wrong with "Introduction to..."? There have been a number of objections, but I think (surprise, surprise) none of them are valid. Let me address some of them.
I think there are two kinds of objections. Those who imply that the "Introduction to..." pages will make Wikipedia less useful for some readers, I take quite seriously. Those that, as far as I can see, argue merely on some abstract point of principle, I have difficulty taking seriously at all. If no user of Wikipedia is worse off if you have "Introduction to...", but some are definitely worse off if you don't, then the choice should be clear – live and let live.
In summary, I think it is undeniable that, in some special cases, "Introduction to..." pages make WP more useful for a specific section of its readership. I have yet to hear a convincing argument that having "Introduction to..." makes WP less useful for anyone. That should be the main consideration, and arguments that fail to judge the matter by this standard are, in my opinion, no more valid than a purity campaign to exclude all articles about hit singles and popular TV characters on the grounds of "stuff like that doesn't belong into a proper encyclopedia". -- Markus Poessel 10:05, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
This is an old (though not very well-known) debate, afds have been fought over the issue, but never has consensus been found to delete or merge trampoline articles ( Introduction to particles was not a proper trampoline). I think they are a very good idea. Often, concepts are not inherently unexplainable to a general audience, but to do so requires taking some space to give background and illustrations. In such cases, it is quite appropriate to fork off from the main article. I agree that no content should be repeated. Trampolines should not merely be rephrasings of the main article, but rather should strive to provide an explanatory, informal approach addorned with helpful examples, analogies and explanation of necessary background that would simply be inappropriate at the main article. But this does not mean the strict avoidance of equations.. The phobia of all things math is limited to a few parts of the world. The article Introduction to special relativity is quite accessible, as it rationalises the apparently counter-intuitive conclusions of SR using a geometric approach based on the Minowsky space and the Lorentz transformations. People with only the compulsory schooling in mathematics can understand it, as it avoids calculus. Also, I do not find Aldol reaction to be a very complicated article. Sure, it can be made more accessible. But in its current state it is understandable with a high-school level knowledge of mechanistic organic chemistry. Loom91 08:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I notice this hasn't been discussed for about five days, if there's a reason for the abrupt stop, such as its going someplace elsewhere, please tell me so.
I am honestly a little surprised at the support Introductory articles get, because they just don't make any sense to me. Is it not obvious that someone interested in reading our article on general relativity is probably not going to already have a technical understanding of the topic? Do not most people lack the technical understanding necessary to comprehend the main article? As an encyclopedia, a source of knowledge, shouldn't we be writing for the unknowledgeable layperson? Is there really no better solution than creating a separate article that fills the purpose the main article should fill?
I wish I could write something half as long as Markus Poessel, but there's really nothing else I can say. My argument is this: As an encyclopedia, the main article on a general topic should be an introduction to that topic, so this article should be a superfluous clone of the main article, rather than a version of it that anyone who hasn't gone to college and gotten a bachelor's of science can read.
Comparing it to aldol reaction is the equivalent of comparing Gulliver's Travels to fiction or book. It is reasonable to assume that someone who wants to know about Gulliver's Travels already knows something about what fiction means or what a book is. It is reasonable to assume someone who wants to know about the aldol reaction already knows something about chemistry. To explain it there would make chemistry unnecessary. It is not reasonable to assume someone who wants to know about general relativity already knows something about general relativity.
To your credit, the science department is at least trying. As someone who plays no music and thought "hey, it would be interesting to know what music notes mean," I gave up on the article when its lead went heavy-handedly through the grammatical function of the word note, which I took to mean that a note is either a particular sound or the representation of that particular sound. But there must be a better way to deal with the issue than this. Atropos 04:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Since this discussion has grown in scope, and I don't want to scatter my arguments among so many different replies, I'll try to set them out coherently here. (And I would appreciate if those who comment on it would not insert their comments into the text, which would defeat my purpose of writing all of this out separately.)
Wikipedia's readership is quite varied, and that is a good thing. For instance, compared with all general dead-tree encyclopedias, we have an inordinate amount of articles about TV series, pop bands and other musical groups (for some musical groups, it seems that every album has its own article; for some TV series, every major character). If we had any space limitations, such as any printed encyclopedia has, there would be heated discussions about he appropriateness of such articles – should we stick to classic encyclopedia content? or, since the "curious average man" mentioned by Atropos is nowadays more interested in Just My Imagination (Running Away with Me) (to take one pick from the list of featured articles) than in Prehistoric Georgia, should we drop the latter to accommodate the former? Luckily, we have no such space limitations. The different parts of the readership can coexist peacefully side by side; except for encyclopedia purists, no-one is going to be bothered if there are articles in Wikipedia you wouldn't find outside specialist encyclopedias in the regular book world. We should be proud that Wikipedia is so many things to so many people – a regular encyclopedia to those who want to save the space that used to be taken up by their Britannica, and a host of specialist encyclopedias to a variety of readers with more specialized interests.
Next, degrees of specialization: Are we writing for the college student or the "man in the street"? Again, since we do not have significant space limitations, that is usually not a problem. If you are someone like PocklingtonDan who is greatly interested in the Roman Army, so that you want to split the subject into detailed separate articles such as the structural, technical, campaign and political history, that's perfectly fine, go ahead. In that case, the target audience will certainly not be the "curious average man" any more, but that is OK – for the average reader, there will be the base article Roman Army; for the interested student or those with special interests who want to dig deeper, there will be the more detailed articles. No-one would ever demand to remove the more detailed articles on the ground that for all but a few readers, interest in the subject just doesn't run that deep – there is no conflict between the different audiences; the fact that there is material at the level of college textbooks does not harm the less specialized reader. The result is that, in subject areas like this, Wikipedia is a valuable resource both for college students and for someone who's just seen a History Channel program about the roman army, and now wants to know just a little bit (but not too much) more. Which is, again, a good thing, and something to be proud of.
Next, mathematical subjects – how to deal with those? Take an article like Lie group. For a certain subset of the Wikipedia audience, namely those who study college-level mathematics or physics, this is an eminently useful article. It is certainly not accessible to a general audience. Should it be deleted? So far it hasn't been, and a good thing, too. We have no space problem. The fact that this article is on Wikipedia doesn't take anything away from the "curious average man" (who will, in all but a very few cases, not even notice its existence), and it does give something to mathematically inclined Wikipedia users. In fact, many physics students (and researchers, come to that) regularly use Wikipedia when it comes to quickly looking up formulae or mathematical definitions. By including such articles, we can certainly no longer argue that all articles on Wikipedia must be in toto accessible to a general audience. Wikipedia is many things to many people, and it would seem both narrow-minded and pointless to restrict its usefulness to one part of the readership if no-one else gains by that restriction. Hence, the section in the guidelines, namely Wikipedia:Make_technical_articles_accessible, about Articles that are unavoidably technical, which says: If an article is unavoidably technical (advanced mathematics being the prime example), then so be it. The guideline also states that the technical part should at least be preceded by a more generally accessible introduction. Sadly, that does not seem to be the case for most mathematics articles yet, which is something to work on.
In all examples so far, the different readership groups have been able to co-exist without coming into conflict, either because the subject lent itself to splitting into an accessible general introduction and more specialized sub-topics ( Roman Army), or because it was so technical that a general audience would have very little interest in it beyond a brief summary such as can be given in an accessible lead, which is then followed by a much less accessible main text. I put it to you that there are some – not many – subjects where this doesn't work, namely where
What to do?
So what's wrong with "Introduction to..."? There have been a number of objections, but I think (surprise, surprise) none of them are valid. Let me address some of them.
I think there are two kinds of objections. Those who imply that the "Introduction to..." pages will make Wikipedia less useful for some readers, I take quite seriously. Those that, as far as I can see, argue merely on some abstract point of principle, I have difficulty taking seriously at all. If no user of Wikipedia is worse off if you have "Introduction to...", but some are definitely worse off if you don't, then the choice should be clear – live and let live.
In summary, I think it is undeniable that, in some special cases, "Introduction to..." pages make WP more useful for a specific section of its readership. I have yet to hear a convincing argument that having "Introduction to..." makes WP less useful for anyone. That should be the main consideration, and arguments that fail to judge the matter by this standard are, in my opinion, no more valid than a purity campaign to exclude all articles about hit singles and popular TV characters on the grounds of "stuff like that doesn't belong into a proper encyclopedia". -- Markus Poessel 10:05, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
This is an old (though not very well-known) debate, afds have been fought over the issue, but never has consensus been found to delete or merge trampoline articles ( Introduction to particles was not a proper trampoline). I think they are a very good idea. Often, concepts are not inherently unexplainable to a general audience, but to do so requires taking some space to give background and illustrations. In such cases, it is quite appropriate to fork off from the main article. I agree that no content should be repeated. Trampolines should not merely be rephrasings of the main article, but rather should strive to provide an explanatory, informal approach addorned with helpful examples, analogies and explanation of necessary background that would simply be inappropriate at the main article. But this does not mean the strict avoidance of equations.. The phobia of all things math is limited to a few parts of the world. The article Introduction to special relativity is quite accessible, as it rationalises the apparently counter-intuitive conclusions of SR using a geometric approach based on the Minowsky space and the Lorentz transformations. People with only the compulsory schooling in mathematics can understand it, as it avoids calculus. Also, I do not find Aldol reaction to be a very complicated article. Sure, it can be made more accessible. But in its current state it is understandable with a high-school level knowledge of mechanistic organic chemistry. Loom91 08:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I notice this hasn't been discussed for about five days, if there's a reason for the abrupt stop, such as its going someplace elsewhere, please tell me so.
I am honestly a little surprised at the support Introductory articles get, because they just don't make any sense to me. Is it not obvious that someone interested in reading our article on general relativity is probably not going to already have a technical understanding of the topic? Do not most people lack the technical understanding necessary to comprehend the main article? As an encyclopedia, a source of knowledge, shouldn't we be writing for the unknowledgeable layperson? Is there really no better solution than creating a separate article that fills the purpose the main article should fill?
I wish I could write something half as long as Markus Poessel, but there's really nothing else I can say. My argument is this: As an encyclopedia, the main article on a general topic should be an introduction to that topic, so this article should be a superfluous clone of the main article, rather than a version of it that anyone who hasn't gone to college and gotten a bachelor's of science can read.
Comparing it to aldol reaction is the equivalent of comparing Gulliver's Travels to fiction or book. It is reasonable to assume that someone who wants to know about Gulliver's Travels already knows something about what fiction means or what a book is. It is reasonable to assume someone who wants to know about the aldol reaction already knows something about chemistry. To explain it there would make chemistry unnecessary. It is not reasonable to assume someone who wants to know about general relativity already knows something about general relativity.
To your credit, the science department is at least trying. As someone who plays no music and thought "hey, it would be interesting to know what music notes mean," I gave up on the article when its lead went heavy-handedly through the grammatical function of the word note, which I took to mean that a note is either a particular sound or the representation of that particular sound. But there must be a better way to deal with the issue than this. Atropos 04:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)