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MiszaBot II (
talk ·
contribs) is occasionally having lapses over the dispute resolution noticeboard. Leaving some collapsed threads and archiving others. So, we will continue to have MiszaBot II in place but because of tedious process of archiving long separate threads manually, I have also implemented
ClueBot III (
talk ·
contribs) which will take over in MiszaBot II's place. ClueBot III will only archive the thread when it detects a special string of words in the thread. For that reason, when you see a thread that's been closed for over 24 hours and it has not yet been archived by MiszaBot II add this anywhere on the thread: <!--ARCHIVENOW-->
anywhere on the thread. I've already put the coding that's necessary in place. And hopefully, that'll do the job. Do not place the string on any thread that is still open, active and uncollapsed! Best regards,
Whenaxis (
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DR goes to Wikimania! 01:54, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
<!--ARCHIVENOW-->
on the threads that were older than 24h, MiszaBot II somehow picked up that code and transferred the threads over to the archiving pages. That's quite bizarre. Maybe leaving both codes for MiszaBot and ClueBot simultaneously is a good idea rather than switching back and forth? Regards,
Whenaxis (
contribs)
DR goes to Wikimania! 12:59, 14 April 2012 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
request that editor TreacherousWays be removed from editing article on The Citadel. He inappropriately tries to dictate what information should be included in the article to include adding a new section on a questionable sexual harassment survey, also has an obsession about including references to shannon faulkner. Reverts deletions without explantation or discussion, tone and demeanor are heavy handed and not conducive to a civil dialogue between writer and editor. My experience so far with wikipedia editors is that they tend to be very dictatorial not helpful. Bob80q ( talk) 02:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
I just closed a request for resolution here because there had been no discussion on the article talk page. I've noticed that a few have been closed in this way, which may not necessarily lead to resolution of the dispute. I get the feeling that users who post here for help are not likely to initiation dispute resolution on the talk page themselves. Perhaps, then, when we reject a premature dispute, we could also post a message on the article's talk page suggesting a discussion and offering to facilitate it (like this). I think that would help resolve disputes before they need more formal resolution here and prevent issues being ignored because the DRN was used prematurely. What do you think? ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 16:51, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Please read the instructions below before posting on this noticeboard |
One of the problems we have here, and with DR in general, is that there's not enough of us. The more time, effort, or complexity you require of participants, the fewer there will be, even if you make the acquisition of the knowledge of what's required of them reasonably easy to acquire. For purposes of this discussion, I'd expand "require" to also include "suggest so strongly that if you fail to do it other participants will pester remind you about it." The only time I get concerned about a no-discussion quick close is in those instances where the listing editor is a newcomer and they've unsuccessfully tried to get the opposing editor(s) to discuss the matter; in those situations, I'll sometimes go an extra mile, but that should always be entirely up to the mediator/clerk. Best regards,
TransporterMan (
TALK) 21:47, 16 April 2012 (UTC) PS: I'll go the extra mile in those situations because coming to the correct answer to the musical question, "What can one do, other than edit war, if the other editor refuses to discuss, especially since all the content DR forums require discussion?" requires a degree of knowledge of WP procedure and policy that is beyond the ken of most newcomers. — TM 21:53, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
I tend to classify disputes by which of two things is the main underlying driver. One is (an) underlying POV objective, the other is primarily psychological. To use the technical term, a pissing war. Stubbornness, wanting to be considered the one who was right, or the usual psychological degeneration into a fight. Of course the other factor can be present in either one. North8000 ( talk) 23:45, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
This is just a note that I changed the header of this noticeboard slightly so that it has more of an emphasis on its informal aspects. I just changed "cases" → "threads" and added "This is an informal board..." It seems that editors treat this like ArbCom. Whenaxis ( contribs) DR goes to Wikimania! 23:59, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
I have to say, that the DRN process has been frustrating to me. I know there have been quite a few OWS related disputes I have been named in. Sorry. Can't really be helped if someone disputes something that others are discussing as they need to be informed. Sometimes I have taken part in the discussion and many times I just keep my mouth shut. I think if DRN were added to the DR process page and made with some emphasis it could attract more people to discuss their issues. I also think there should be a minimum time to discuss once a dispute has been accepted as valid for the DRN process. Say...no less than 48 hrs to give editors time to respond and editors can be certain the discussion will not close unless a consensus is clearly reached by all parties. Otherwise there is no sense in having a DRN process. Editors who have filed the dispute and editors envolved get a set time to respond to even begin the discussion and a limit of perhaps 72 hrs if an active DRN is ungoing and good faith discussion is still happening, even if not entirely productive. Some of these may already be in place. But I didn't do the survey thing so I thought I would comment now after filing my first DRN. Thanks!-- Amadscientist ( talk) 07:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
I've been thinking if we should allow disputes that have occurred (exclusively) on a user's talk page. This would open up our purview and allow disputes to have an opportunity to query even though it is not on an article's/template's/category's talk page. Good or bad idea? Curb Chain ( talk) 03:35, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Please use Mizra or some bot that works. Threads are not archiving, for example ones which are over a week old. Curb Chain ( talk) 20:01, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Hey all, DRN as you can see is a bit backlogged. I realise we're all a bit busy (me especially) but if we could get some of this cleared up that would be fantastic. Regards, Steven Zhang Talk 02:27, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I have recently been trying my hand at helping out at DRN to seem if it is a good fit for me. Wikipedia has been a big help to me and I want to give something back. After trying to help in a couple of discussions, I think this is something I would like to do on a semi-regular basis.
I am going to ask for advice, but first let me mention where I think I could do better. The first thing is that I have to be more diplomatic. I don't think I am awful, but I could do better. Some of the people coming to these cases are already pretty upset, and other are a bit, shall we say, challenging. So I need to get better at dealing with that. I welcome constructive criticism about this sort of thing, so don't think I will be offended if you tell me I handles something poorly.
The second thing is that I need to get a bit better with the nuts and bolts; things like when to start a new section and what level it should be at, how long to wait before closing something, how to best refer someone who should be at another noticeboard -- that sort of thing. Again, constructive criticism is helpful.
So, if anyone has some advice for me, please jump in. Thanks! -- Guy Macon ( talk) 01:30, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
When a new issue is created, the template inserts the following: N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Wisconsin gubernatorial recall election, 2012}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.. I suggest that the "N. B." be eliminated. Many readers, especially if English is a second language, won't know what NB means. Also, NB is almost never necessary in any situation. -- Noleander ( talk) 17:36, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Move review has been turned on. While it is still listed as proposed, it needs to be given a chance to see if it will work as designed. I'm mentioning this here since it is another option for resolving disputes without admins getting into trouble over WP:WHEEL violations. Vegaswikian ( talk) 05:28, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Again, just archived 9 12 threads manually. —
TransporterMan (
TALK) 18:39, 7 June 2012 (UTC) Updated: TM — 20:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't we have a better system of autoarchive? Curb Chain ( talk) 23:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
The simplified header, which was adopted without discussion, is leaving too many control issues unaddressed. After leaving a conduct warning in this edit I was challenged to justify it. While the old header is more complex, and perhaps could use some streamlining, it covers necessary issues that the simplified header simply does not adequately cover and I have reverted back to it. Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 17:21, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
Hi, all. I'm personally very grateful for the work of the regulars who keep this board humming, as is the rest of the community, I'm sure. While I absolutely don't mean to diminish that in any way, I would like to ask that volunteers here refrain from referring to themselves in any way that might be misunderstood as implying any sort of authority beyond that of any other community member.
In particular, I found it confusing to read what Guy wrote, "I am a volunteer Clerk/Mediator here". Although I've been a Wikipedian for quite a while, now, when I first read that I assumed that "Clerk/Mediator" was a community-conferred role or title, since the word "Clerk" is used in that way (exclusively, AFAIK) elsewhere on Wikipedia. I'm sure no one intends it, but without reading the docs for this board, there's no way to know that "volunteer Clerk/Mediator" means exactly the same thing as "volunteer", i.e. no way to know that "Clerk" or "Mediator" aren't community-conferred titles in the way they're being used here. Perhaps just "volunteer" or "dispute resolution volunteer" without the caps, or "volunteer mediator" would be less likely to be misinterpreted. Cordially, -- OhioStandard ( talk) 22:50, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Grand Poobah?
Fountain guard?
Guardian of the Gates?
Necron?
Dalek Supreme?
Tisroc?
Village idiot?
Barrayaran Imperial Auditor?
Steward of Gondor?
--
Guy Macon (
talk) 05:44, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
My personal take on the while thing is that I don't think prefixing one's comments with "I am a volunteer/clerk/mediator/random user/etc here at DRN..." is necessary, and is the reason why I've almost never done it. It's pretty obvious that those that make comment here are regulars, and the suggestions and comments that we provide to parties who bring disputes here speak for themselves. No need for fancy titles or funky templates, in my opinion. Steven Zhang Get involved in DR! 13:51, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
Ohiostandard, There is no need to use a hammer when persuasion will do. I just did a search and replace changing "Mediator" to "dispute resolution volunteer" while we discuss this. Talk page discussion should be given a fair chance before escalation to RfC or ANI. Please don't assume that we cannot reach a consensus on this. You might persuade me or I might persuade you.
That being said, you have not yet convinced me. I have no problem dropping the capitalization -- you have a good point on that -- but Wikipedia:Mediation clearly says that "Any Wikipedia editor can act as a mediator to a dispute" and Wikipedia:Mediation is a very good describtion of what a dispute resolution volunteer does. I think that using the following when I first introduce myself...
"I am a volunteer mediator here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard.
This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes and with the nuts and bolts of opening, closing, and formatting discussions here. We need more volunteers; see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Guide for details."
...adequately addresses your concerns. As I said, I am open to being persuaded otherwise.
"Title" does not imply "Title conferred by the community." I have the title of "Rollbacker", for example, and there was no community discussion involved. I just asked an admin. I also have the somewhat obsolete title of "Reviewer", and I have no idea who gave me that user right - I certainly didn't ask for it.
I am less attached to "clerk", but I like it because it seems like a non-threatening way of conveying a basic fact: Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Guide says "There needs to be discussion on a talk page about a dispute before it can be brought here. If there hasn't been any discussion, point this out politely to the participants, and close the thread." the term "clerk" seems like a good description of someone who does that. Of course I could drop it and whenever someone asks "who the hell are you to close my DRN filing???" I could refer them to you for an answer... (Note to the humor impaired; that was a joke).
Because of the above, until they let me use the title of Dalek Supreme, I prefer mediator/clerk, a phrase that TransporterMan has been using for quite a while -- and which was in the instructions at the top of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard until 17 February 2012 -- without anyone showing any indication that they think he is improperly using a title that has been conferred by the community. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 14:56, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I continue to believe that it is very beneficial to, first (but both), make clear that you are not participating in a discussion as a disputant and, second, to let the disputants know that (if it is indeed the case) you have some experience in dispute resolution and haven't (as has occasionally happened here) just signed up as a Wikipedia editor and began, without any experience on either the content or bureaucratic side of WP, giving opinions. While I made a jokey long introductory statement previously, if pushed to do it I might well start pointing out that I am the second most active contributor here at DRN and the third most active at 3O and a coordinator at MEDCAB, all of which are true. Frankly, while that does nice things for my ego, I objectively feel that it gives a far more prejudicial effect than merely claiming that I am a "regular mediator/clerk". Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 21:55, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
I closed a discussion for inadequate discussion and Curb Chain objected on my talk page. While I disagree with his reasoning (which I am going to discuss in a separate section, below), I nonetheless reopened the listing and notified the disputants so that he or some other volunteer could handle that dispute. I only mention this because I want to remind everyone that this project is just like any other page at Wikipedia. If any of us object to anything anyone else does here, we should feel free to reverse that person's actions, just as we would as if it was an edit on an article page. The more collegial way of doing it is the way Curb did it, which I very much appreciate and for which I would like to thank him. Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 13:55, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you TransporterMan for showing this thoughtfulness. I do appreciate it. I'm not sure why you mentioned I had not responded, but I might have been busy the last couple of days. Once again, thanks TransporterMan. Curb Chain ( talk) 07:53, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks Guy Macon for your complimenting edit summaries and to you as well, your amicable editing-manner:-) Cheers and thanks Curb Chain ( talk) 07:55, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
As noted above, Curb Chain objected to my close of a listing for inadequate discussion on the grounds that though there had been some discussion, "The only discussion of this issue has to be to talk back and forth at one another, rather than talking to one another about the actual issues involved." In short, there had been some back-and-forth on talk pages (mainly complaints about the other's actions and demands that one respond to the other's arguments), but no substantive discussion about the matter in dispute. Curb was objectively right in objecting that there had been some discussion, and that's all that our guidelines require. I am not asking for an evaluation of either Curb's or my action in this particular case, but I do think that the distinction between no discussion and some, but inadequate discussion is worth talking about.
No discussion closes have always been controversial, even though every current form of content dispute resolution requires talk page discussion and, thus, permits such closes. In my opinion, it is a necessary requirement, however, in order to preserve the Wiki-ideal of editing through consensus and collegiality. Its existence forces editors to discuss their edits and reversions before calling in the cavalry. (And I would note that even RFC, the most Wiki-faithful and organic of the cavalry-calling procedures, has had at least an implied must-discuss requirement from its very beginning, "The purpose of this page is to inform the community of contentious discussions that are currently being held on various talk or sub pages." [Emphasis added.])
The question is, how much discussion is enough? There seems to be general agreement that discussion merely through edit summaries is not enough, that it must move onto the talk page. But is the fact that both editors merely mention the dispute or hurl insults at one another about the dispute on the talk page enough? How about one editor saying something like, "That's not allowed because it's not NPOV." and the other replying, "No it's not."? If that's all the discussion that there is, is that enough?
My personal feeling is that the purpose of the must-discuss rule is not satisfied until both disputants have made a genuine effort to discuss the dispute, not just an attempt or gesture. An absolute no-discussion-of-any-kind is procedurally easier to evaluate, of course, but falls short of what the requirement is intended to do. What do you think?
Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 14:33, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
So I've reread the dispute but it seems to have disappeared. To be frank, I only had problems with TransporterMan's closing statement, not the closure of the DRN-file; either there was no talk page (2-party) discussion (as the reopened DRN file seems not to show), or it seems not be linked currently.
If I somehow misread the DRN file, I must have thought that the sole editor posting on Talk:List of CBS television affiliates (table) in ==RfC: Should there be a link to CBS Television Stations?== must have been the discussion, but as you can see, this wasn't a discussion at all.
I have no objection to closing this DRN file. Curb Chain ( talk) 08:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
bot test
I was looking through the X-ray Computed Tomography thread and wondered whether it would have not been more efficient to have referred the poster immediately to RSN, given that his formulated question was about a particular source. S/he asked if the source was "as good as the others in the article", which is a misconception, because that isn't a criterion in evaluating sources. The quality of the debate then spiralled downhill quickly and Transportman correctly capped off the user conduct issues. I'm not raising this to quibble with anyone's responses in this case, just to say that it raises the question of how much can be resolved here and at what point users are referred elsewhere. It seems to me that in some cases, where a poster is very frustrated and sounding off in all directions, an immediate response might include several referrals on: "Take this question to RSN, this one to BLPN, this one to COIN, this one to WQA, etc.". Not to fob them off or to make editing within the rules even more complicated than it already is, but to break a set of problems into manageable chunks, and to get questions looked at by the people most experienced in those areas. Thoughts? Itsmejudith ( talk) 13:36, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Filing a case. Opening a discussion, Initiating a conversation. Starting an entry. Disputant. Filer. Initiator. 3rd party. Uninvolved editor. Dalek Supreme. I would like to know what the best names to use for these things are. My specific questions are:
When someone fills out the form and some new text shows up at DRN, the text (including response) is called a ?????? and what she /he did is called ????? a ????? at WP:DRN.
The person who filled out the form is called a ?????
The other persons named are called ?????
A person with no prior interaction with the whatever-it-is-called or any of the editors named but who has previous experience at DRN is called a dispute resolution volunteer or just volunteer (this one was already discussed and decided)
A person with no prior interaction with the whatever-it-is-called or any of the editors named and no previous experience at DRN is called a ?????
Any I missed? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 15:47, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
In the section directly above this one, The term "case", "dispute" and "thread" have been used to describe what Itsmejudith says is a "query". I would really appreciate some other opinions on this. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 14:40, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
My suggestions:
On second thought, I think Mr. Stadivarius' choices are on the mark (as best practice, but not as rules). Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 13:46, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
For me, a new request made by filling out the form is a dispute and all people that are not volunteers or uninvolved editors are disputants. Optional, of course, but it may be wise to prepend our initial comment with something like, "Hi, I am a volunteer here at DRN" or something like that, which in my mind solves what I see as a need for disputants, the need to know who is helping them with their dispute. But that's just my opinion or course. I've changed the heading on the header from "Guide for participants" to "Guide for disputants" as participants, to me, could be anyone who edits here, where disputants are only those involved in the dispute. But that's just my opinion. Steven Zhang Get involved in DR! 22:56, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi all. I think a few changes might be wise at DRN. I've created a case status template (it's at Template:DR case status, documentation on it's use is there) and I think it could help us keep track of the status of a dispute a lot easier. I've added it to the core of the code and done some tests, and it's functioning well. I was motivated to do this when I saw a dispute ( Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Rangers_FC_club_dead_or_not) which was so long that I couldn't determine if anyone has offered assistance. It turns out that it hasn't, and probably needs to be looked into, however it got me thinking about the need to make it easier for us, and new users, to see the status of a dispute. I also think that the giant walls of text that people write before a volunteer provides assistance. I'm currently working on a creating a simplified way for people to file dispute at WMF, but for the time being I think we should create and set some rules, and enforce them: opening statements to be no more than 250 words, other parties make one comment no more than 250 words, and it stays this way until a volunteer comes and opens the thread up (from the default "new" to "open".) I think that by doing this the "ugh" that some of us all experience (and new potential volunteers have) when they see massive walls of text would reduce, and this may increase the amount of volunteers we have. There's a few other things I'm working on at present, but I wanted some thoughts on this. Let me know of any ideas you have. Regards, Steven Zhang Get involved in DR! 10:46, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not too sure what you mean when you say "to do so would clearly take this forum out of dispute resolution". Personally, I can't think of a scenario in which we change the board so much that it ceases to be a part of dispute resolution. (Short of deleting the whole thing or overwriting it with a random article, that is.) Could you elaborate on your position here a little? Thanks — Mr. Stradivarius ( have a chat) 09:38, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
The fact that other boards don't do things doesn't mean that we should not. You say that we should not recruit volunteers - but at present there's just a handful of us, and some of the disputes aren't being looked at for days - some are being ignored completely. I'm not a statistician, but I am compiling stats for DR pages, and that's so I can measure how effective they are. At the moment, it doesn't look good. I'll be posting the stats soon, but there's a very developed idea behind my proposals. I'll be going over it at Wikimania, so if you're there you'll hear my thoughts, or I'm happy to explain it over a conference call - but at present all I'm getting from you is "I see no reason for X, X is not needed" without any evidence to back up your claims. If you think change is not needed and DRN works fine, and disputes are getting resolved effectively here, show me where you see that. If you also think that there are enough volunteers here, show me where. These changes are designed to satisfy a few needs.
For disputants, the needs I have identified are:
For volunteers, the needs are:
The changes have a few purposes - the status template allows the parties to know the status of their dispute, and allows other volunteers to identify if a dispute needs attention (thereby addressing the issue of disputes that are not looked into for days). The idea of appending one's comment with something like "Hi, I am a volunteer here at DRN" allows parties to understand who is helping them, and provides some recognition to the volunteers - from time to time parties will give barnstars to a volunteer for a job well done - and while this isn't why we all do DR, it does make us feel good - and the key thing here is it makes new volunteers satisfied, and thus more likely to continue DR. DRN was created for two reasons, to make it easier to file a dispute, and to make it easier to volunteer - one literally looks at a thread and leaves comments on how they see things. It's an infinite loop, and at present things are going the wrong way. Without a word limit, threads become TL;DR, so new volunteers take a glance at them and either think "ugh, too hard" or "someone must surely have addressed this issue already" and the thread gets left alone. We burnout. A year ago, DR volunteers was likely at its lowest point - with the creation of DRN it's started to improve, but the ratio of disputants to volunteers, or even disputes to volunteers, is very bad. Again, you'll see my stats soon, but it's not like I haven't thought this through - I've been working on this for months. I would be interested to hear as to why you think DRN works well at the present time, and why you think DR in general is functioning well with the amount of volunteers we have at present. Regards, Steven Zhang Get involved in DR! 12:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure if you noticed, but nowhere in this thread have I used unpublished results of the statistics measuring activity of dispute resolution forums. I've made comment on my general observations of dispute resolution (which can be seen by anyone by just glancing over the DRN archives) but have not referred to the stats until it was published (see above). You can see the results in the link provided. You have every right to disagree - but realize that you stand alone here. I have other important things to do, so I will not be replying any further here. I, as well as the others here, consider this matter closed. Steven Zhang Get involved in DR! 01:04, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
I like the opening statements requirement. It's far too easy to further muddy the waters if you let a guy spiel for paragraphs. How many DRN threads become largely about the opening statement? I haven't checked, but I'm sure it happens enough to be worrisome. It's better for us and for them if they have to get straight to the point. Ideally. Xavexgoem ( talk) 04:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I think we can all do with a bit less absolute "the effect of change X WILL be Y" thinking and a few less "my opinion on the entire proposal is Z" comments. Better to say that you think that a particular part of the proposal will have a particular effect. I seriously doubt that the proposal is all good or all bad, or that anyone is 100% sure which parts are good and which parts are bad. No proposal is ever as beneficial as its proponents predict, or as harmful as its opponents predict. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 01:40, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
What does everyone think the word limit should be, if we're going to have one? I'm thinking 400 words might be good to start off with, but I'm open to persuasion. We can always revise it upwards or downwards as we see how involved editors react. — Mr. Stradivarius ( have a chat) 06:49, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
MiszaBot II (
talk ·
contribs) is occasionally having lapses over the dispute resolution noticeboard. Leaving some collapsed threads and archiving others. So, we will continue to have MiszaBot II in place but because of tedious process of archiving long separate threads manually, I have also implemented
ClueBot III (
talk ·
contribs) which will take over in MiszaBot II's place. ClueBot III will only archive the thread when it detects a special string of words in the thread. For that reason, when you see a thread that's been closed for over 24 hours and it has not yet been archived by MiszaBot II add this anywhere on the thread: <!--ARCHIVENOW-->
anywhere on the thread. I've already put the coding that's necessary in place. And hopefully, that'll do the job. Do not place the string on any thread that is still open, active and uncollapsed! Best regards,
Whenaxis (
contribs)
DR goes to Wikimania! 01:54, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
<!--ARCHIVENOW-->
on the threads that were older than 24h, MiszaBot II somehow picked up that code and transferred the threads over to the archiving pages. That's quite bizarre. Maybe leaving both codes for MiszaBot and ClueBot simultaneously is a good idea rather than switching back and forth? Regards,
Whenaxis (
contribs)
DR goes to Wikimania! 12:59, 14 April 2012 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
request that editor TreacherousWays be removed from editing article on The Citadel. He inappropriately tries to dictate what information should be included in the article to include adding a new section on a questionable sexual harassment survey, also has an obsession about including references to shannon faulkner. Reverts deletions without explantation or discussion, tone and demeanor are heavy handed and not conducive to a civil dialogue between writer and editor. My experience so far with wikipedia editors is that they tend to be very dictatorial not helpful. Bob80q ( talk) 02:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
I just closed a request for resolution here because there had been no discussion on the article talk page. I've noticed that a few have been closed in this way, which may not necessarily lead to resolution of the dispute. I get the feeling that users who post here for help are not likely to initiation dispute resolution on the talk page themselves. Perhaps, then, when we reject a premature dispute, we could also post a message on the article's talk page suggesting a discussion and offering to facilitate it (like this). I think that would help resolve disputes before they need more formal resolution here and prevent issues being ignored because the DRN was used prematurely. What do you think? ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 16:51, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Please read the instructions below before posting on this noticeboard |
One of the problems we have here, and with DR in general, is that there's not enough of us. The more time, effort, or complexity you require of participants, the fewer there will be, even if you make the acquisition of the knowledge of what's required of them reasonably easy to acquire. For purposes of this discussion, I'd expand "require" to also include "suggest so strongly that if you fail to do it other participants will pester remind you about it." The only time I get concerned about a no-discussion quick close is in those instances where the listing editor is a newcomer and they've unsuccessfully tried to get the opposing editor(s) to discuss the matter; in those situations, I'll sometimes go an extra mile, but that should always be entirely up to the mediator/clerk. Best regards,
TransporterMan (
TALK) 21:47, 16 April 2012 (UTC) PS: I'll go the extra mile in those situations because coming to the correct answer to the musical question, "What can one do, other than edit war, if the other editor refuses to discuss, especially since all the content DR forums require discussion?" requires a degree of knowledge of WP procedure and policy that is beyond the ken of most newcomers. — TM 21:53, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
I tend to classify disputes by which of two things is the main underlying driver. One is (an) underlying POV objective, the other is primarily psychological. To use the technical term, a pissing war. Stubbornness, wanting to be considered the one who was right, or the usual psychological degeneration into a fight. Of course the other factor can be present in either one. North8000 ( talk) 23:45, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
This is just a note that I changed the header of this noticeboard slightly so that it has more of an emphasis on its informal aspects. I just changed "cases" → "threads" and added "This is an informal board..." It seems that editors treat this like ArbCom. Whenaxis ( contribs) DR goes to Wikimania! 23:59, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
I have to say, that the DRN process has been frustrating to me. I know there have been quite a few OWS related disputes I have been named in. Sorry. Can't really be helped if someone disputes something that others are discussing as they need to be informed. Sometimes I have taken part in the discussion and many times I just keep my mouth shut. I think if DRN were added to the DR process page and made with some emphasis it could attract more people to discuss their issues. I also think there should be a minimum time to discuss once a dispute has been accepted as valid for the DRN process. Say...no less than 48 hrs to give editors time to respond and editors can be certain the discussion will not close unless a consensus is clearly reached by all parties. Otherwise there is no sense in having a DRN process. Editors who have filed the dispute and editors envolved get a set time to respond to even begin the discussion and a limit of perhaps 72 hrs if an active DRN is ungoing and good faith discussion is still happening, even if not entirely productive. Some of these may already be in place. But I didn't do the survey thing so I thought I would comment now after filing my first DRN. Thanks!-- Amadscientist ( talk) 07:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
I've been thinking if we should allow disputes that have occurred (exclusively) on a user's talk page. This would open up our purview and allow disputes to have an opportunity to query even though it is not on an article's/template's/category's talk page. Good or bad idea? Curb Chain ( talk) 03:35, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Please use Mizra or some bot that works. Threads are not archiving, for example ones which are over a week old. Curb Chain ( talk) 20:01, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Hey all, DRN as you can see is a bit backlogged. I realise we're all a bit busy (me especially) but if we could get some of this cleared up that would be fantastic. Regards, Steven Zhang Talk 02:27, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I have recently been trying my hand at helping out at DRN to seem if it is a good fit for me. Wikipedia has been a big help to me and I want to give something back. After trying to help in a couple of discussions, I think this is something I would like to do on a semi-regular basis.
I am going to ask for advice, but first let me mention where I think I could do better. The first thing is that I have to be more diplomatic. I don't think I am awful, but I could do better. Some of the people coming to these cases are already pretty upset, and other are a bit, shall we say, challenging. So I need to get better at dealing with that. I welcome constructive criticism about this sort of thing, so don't think I will be offended if you tell me I handles something poorly.
The second thing is that I need to get a bit better with the nuts and bolts; things like when to start a new section and what level it should be at, how long to wait before closing something, how to best refer someone who should be at another noticeboard -- that sort of thing. Again, constructive criticism is helpful.
So, if anyone has some advice for me, please jump in. Thanks! -- Guy Macon ( talk) 01:30, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
When a new issue is created, the template inserts the following: N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Wisconsin gubernatorial recall election, 2012}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.. I suggest that the "N. B." be eliminated. Many readers, especially if English is a second language, won't know what NB means. Also, NB is almost never necessary in any situation. -- Noleander ( talk) 17:36, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Move review has been turned on. While it is still listed as proposed, it needs to be given a chance to see if it will work as designed. I'm mentioning this here since it is another option for resolving disputes without admins getting into trouble over WP:WHEEL violations. Vegaswikian ( talk) 05:28, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Again, just archived 9 12 threads manually. —
TransporterMan (
TALK) 18:39, 7 June 2012 (UTC) Updated: TM — 20:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't we have a better system of autoarchive? Curb Chain ( talk) 23:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
The simplified header, which was adopted without discussion, is leaving too many control issues unaddressed. After leaving a conduct warning in this edit I was challenged to justify it. While the old header is more complex, and perhaps could use some streamlining, it covers necessary issues that the simplified header simply does not adequately cover and I have reverted back to it. Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 17:21, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
Hi, all. I'm personally very grateful for the work of the regulars who keep this board humming, as is the rest of the community, I'm sure. While I absolutely don't mean to diminish that in any way, I would like to ask that volunteers here refrain from referring to themselves in any way that might be misunderstood as implying any sort of authority beyond that of any other community member.
In particular, I found it confusing to read what Guy wrote, "I am a volunteer Clerk/Mediator here". Although I've been a Wikipedian for quite a while, now, when I first read that I assumed that "Clerk/Mediator" was a community-conferred role or title, since the word "Clerk" is used in that way (exclusively, AFAIK) elsewhere on Wikipedia. I'm sure no one intends it, but without reading the docs for this board, there's no way to know that "volunteer Clerk/Mediator" means exactly the same thing as "volunteer", i.e. no way to know that "Clerk" or "Mediator" aren't community-conferred titles in the way they're being used here. Perhaps just "volunteer" or "dispute resolution volunteer" without the caps, or "volunteer mediator" would be less likely to be misinterpreted. Cordially, -- OhioStandard ( talk) 22:50, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Grand Poobah?
Fountain guard?
Guardian of the Gates?
Necron?
Dalek Supreme?
Tisroc?
Village idiot?
Barrayaran Imperial Auditor?
Steward of Gondor?
--
Guy Macon (
talk) 05:44, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
My personal take on the while thing is that I don't think prefixing one's comments with "I am a volunteer/clerk/mediator/random user/etc here at DRN..." is necessary, and is the reason why I've almost never done it. It's pretty obvious that those that make comment here are regulars, and the suggestions and comments that we provide to parties who bring disputes here speak for themselves. No need for fancy titles or funky templates, in my opinion. Steven Zhang Get involved in DR! 13:51, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
Ohiostandard, There is no need to use a hammer when persuasion will do. I just did a search and replace changing "Mediator" to "dispute resolution volunteer" while we discuss this. Talk page discussion should be given a fair chance before escalation to RfC or ANI. Please don't assume that we cannot reach a consensus on this. You might persuade me or I might persuade you.
That being said, you have not yet convinced me. I have no problem dropping the capitalization -- you have a good point on that -- but Wikipedia:Mediation clearly says that "Any Wikipedia editor can act as a mediator to a dispute" and Wikipedia:Mediation is a very good describtion of what a dispute resolution volunteer does. I think that using the following when I first introduce myself...
"I am a volunteer mediator here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard.
This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes and with the nuts and bolts of opening, closing, and formatting discussions here. We need more volunteers; see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Guide for details."
...adequately addresses your concerns. As I said, I am open to being persuaded otherwise.
"Title" does not imply "Title conferred by the community." I have the title of "Rollbacker", for example, and there was no community discussion involved. I just asked an admin. I also have the somewhat obsolete title of "Reviewer", and I have no idea who gave me that user right - I certainly didn't ask for it.
I am less attached to "clerk", but I like it because it seems like a non-threatening way of conveying a basic fact: Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Guide says "There needs to be discussion on a talk page about a dispute before it can be brought here. If there hasn't been any discussion, point this out politely to the participants, and close the thread." the term "clerk" seems like a good description of someone who does that. Of course I could drop it and whenever someone asks "who the hell are you to close my DRN filing???" I could refer them to you for an answer... (Note to the humor impaired; that was a joke).
Because of the above, until they let me use the title of Dalek Supreme, I prefer mediator/clerk, a phrase that TransporterMan has been using for quite a while -- and which was in the instructions at the top of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard until 17 February 2012 -- without anyone showing any indication that they think he is improperly using a title that has been conferred by the community. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 14:56, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I continue to believe that it is very beneficial to, first (but both), make clear that you are not participating in a discussion as a disputant and, second, to let the disputants know that (if it is indeed the case) you have some experience in dispute resolution and haven't (as has occasionally happened here) just signed up as a Wikipedia editor and began, without any experience on either the content or bureaucratic side of WP, giving opinions. While I made a jokey long introductory statement previously, if pushed to do it I might well start pointing out that I am the second most active contributor here at DRN and the third most active at 3O and a coordinator at MEDCAB, all of which are true. Frankly, while that does nice things for my ego, I objectively feel that it gives a far more prejudicial effect than merely claiming that I am a "regular mediator/clerk". Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 21:55, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
I closed a discussion for inadequate discussion and Curb Chain objected on my talk page. While I disagree with his reasoning (which I am going to discuss in a separate section, below), I nonetheless reopened the listing and notified the disputants so that he or some other volunteer could handle that dispute. I only mention this because I want to remind everyone that this project is just like any other page at Wikipedia. If any of us object to anything anyone else does here, we should feel free to reverse that person's actions, just as we would as if it was an edit on an article page. The more collegial way of doing it is the way Curb did it, which I very much appreciate and for which I would like to thank him. Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 13:55, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you TransporterMan for showing this thoughtfulness. I do appreciate it. I'm not sure why you mentioned I had not responded, but I might have been busy the last couple of days. Once again, thanks TransporterMan. Curb Chain ( talk) 07:53, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks Guy Macon for your complimenting edit summaries and to you as well, your amicable editing-manner:-) Cheers and thanks Curb Chain ( talk) 07:55, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
As noted above, Curb Chain objected to my close of a listing for inadequate discussion on the grounds that though there had been some discussion, "The only discussion of this issue has to be to talk back and forth at one another, rather than talking to one another about the actual issues involved." In short, there had been some back-and-forth on talk pages (mainly complaints about the other's actions and demands that one respond to the other's arguments), but no substantive discussion about the matter in dispute. Curb was objectively right in objecting that there had been some discussion, and that's all that our guidelines require. I am not asking for an evaluation of either Curb's or my action in this particular case, but I do think that the distinction between no discussion and some, but inadequate discussion is worth talking about.
No discussion closes have always been controversial, even though every current form of content dispute resolution requires talk page discussion and, thus, permits such closes. In my opinion, it is a necessary requirement, however, in order to preserve the Wiki-ideal of editing through consensus and collegiality. Its existence forces editors to discuss their edits and reversions before calling in the cavalry. (And I would note that even RFC, the most Wiki-faithful and organic of the cavalry-calling procedures, has had at least an implied must-discuss requirement from its very beginning, "The purpose of this page is to inform the community of contentious discussions that are currently being held on various talk or sub pages." [Emphasis added.])
The question is, how much discussion is enough? There seems to be general agreement that discussion merely through edit summaries is not enough, that it must move onto the talk page. But is the fact that both editors merely mention the dispute or hurl insults at one another about the dispute on the talk page enough? How about one editor saying something like, "That's not allowed because it's not NPOV." and the other replying, "No it's not."? If that's all the discussion that there is, is that enough?
My personal feeling is that the purpose of the must-discuss rule is not satisfied until both disputants have made a genuine effort to discuss the dispute, not just an attempt or gesture. An absolute no-discussion-of-any-kind is procedurally easier to evaluate, of course, but falls short of what the requirement is intended to do. What do you think?
Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 14:33, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
So I've reread the dispute but it seems to have disappeared. To be frank, I only had problems with TransporterMan's closing statement, not the closure of the DRN-file; either there was no talk page (2-party) discussion (as the reopened DRN file seems not to show), or it seems not be linked currently.
If I somehow misread the DRN file, I must have thought that the sole editor posting on Talk:List of CBS television affiliates (table) in ==RfC: Should there be a link to CBS Television Stations?== must have been the discussion, but as you can see, this wasn't a discussion at all.
I have no objection to closing this DRN file. Curb Chain ( talk) 08:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
bot test
I was looking through the X-ray Computed Tomography thread and wondered whether it would have not been more efficient to have referred the poster immediately to RSN, given that his formulated question was about a particular source. S/he asked if the source was "as good as the others in the article", which is a misconception, because that isn't a criterion in evaluating sources. The quality of the debate then spiralled downhill quickly and Transportman correctly capped off the user conduct issues. I'm not raising this to quibble with anyone's responses in this case, just to say that it raises the question of how much can be resolved here and at what point users are referred elsewhere. It seems to me that in some cases, where a poster is very frustrated and sounding off in all directions, an immediate response might include several referrals on: "Take this question to RSN, this one to BLPN, this one to COIN, this one to WQA, etc.". Not to fob them off or to make editing within the rules even more complicated than it already is, but to break a set of problems into manageable chunks, and to get questions looked at by the people most experienced in those areas. Thoughts? Itsmejudith ( talk) 13:36, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Filing a case. Opening a discussion, Initiating a conversation. Starting an entry. Disputant. Filer. Initiator. 3rd party. Uninvolved editor. Dalek Supreme. I would like to know what the best names to use for these things are. My specific questions are:
When someone fills out the form and some new text shows up at DRN, the text (including response) is called a ?????? and what she /he did is called ????? a ????? at WP:DRN.
The person who filled out the form is called a ?????
The other persons named are called ?????
A person with no prior interaction with the whatever-it-is-called or any of the editors named but who has previous experience at DRN is called a dispute resolution volunteer or just volunteer (this one was already discussed and decided)
A person with no prior interaction with the whatever-it-is-called or any of the editors named and no previous experience at DRN is called a ?????
Any I missed? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 15:47, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
In the section directly above this one, The term "case", "dispute" and "thread" have been used to describe what Itsmejudith says is a "query". I would really appreciate some other opinions on this. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 14:40, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
My suggestions:
On second thought, I think Mr. Stadivarius' choices are on the mark (as best practice, but not as rules). Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 13:46, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
For me, a new request made by filling out the form is a dispute and all people that are not volunteers or uninvolved editors are disputants. Optional, of course, but it may be wise to prepend our initial comment with something like, "Hi, I am a volunteer here at DRN" or something like that, which in my mind solves what I see as a need for disputants, the need to know who is helping them with their dispute. But that's just my opinion or course. I've changed the heading on the header from "Guide for participants" to "Guide for disputants" as participants, to me, could be anyone who edits here, where disputants are only those involved in the dispute. But that's just my opinion. Steven Zhang Get involved in DR! 22:56, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi all. I think a few changes might be wise at DRN. I've created a case status template (it's at Template:DR case status, documentation on it's use is there) and I think it could help us keep track of the status of a dispute a lot easier. I've added it to the core of the code and done some tests, and it's functioning well. I was motivated to do this when I saw a dispute ( Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Rangers_FC_club_dead_or_not) which was so long that I couldn't determine if anyone has offered assistance. It turns out that it hasn't, and probably needs to be looked into, however it got me thinking about the need to make it easier for us, and new users, to see the status of a dispute. I also think that the giant walls of text that people write before a volunteer provides assistance. I'm currently working on a creating a simplified way for people to file dispute at WMF, but for the time being I think we should create and set some rules, and enforce them: opening statements to be no more than 250 words, other parties make one comment no more than 250 words, and it stays this way until a volunteer comes and opens the thread up (from the default "new" to "open".) I think that by doing this the "ugh" that some of us all experience (and new potential volunteers have) when they see massive walls of text would reduce, and this may increase the amount of volunteers we have. There's a few other things I'm working on at present, but I wanted some thoughts on this. Let me know of any ideas you have. Regards, Steven Zhang Get involved in DR! 10:46, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not too sure what you mean when you say "to do so would clearly take this forum out of dispute resolution". Personally, I can't think of a scenario in which we change the board so much that it ceases to be a part of dispute resolution. (Short of deleting the whole thing or overwriting it with a random article, that is.) Could you elaborate on your position here a little? Thanks — Mr. Stradivarius ( have a chat) 09:38, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
The fact that other boards don't do things doesn't mean that we should not. You say that we should not recruit volunteers - but at present there's just a handful of us, and some of the disputes aren't being looked at for days - some are being ignored completely. I'm not a statistician, but I am compiling stats for DR pages, and that's so I can measure how effective they are. At the moment, it doesn't look good. I'll be posting the stats soon, but there's a very developed idea behind my proposals. I'll be going over it at Wikimania, so if you're there you'll hear my thoughts, or I'm happy to explain it over a conference call - but at present all I'm getting from you is "I see no reason for X, X is not needed" without any evidence to back up your claims. If you think change is not needed and DRN works fine, and disputes are getting resolved effectively here, show me where you see that. If you also think that there are enough volunteers here, show me where. These changes are designed to satisfy a few needs.
For disputants, the needs I have identified are:
For volunteers, the needs are:
The changes have a few purposes - the status template allows the parties to know the status of their dispute, and allows other volunteers to identify if a dispute needs attention (thereby addressing the issue of disputes that are not looked into for days). The idea of appending one's comment with something like "Hi, I am a volunteer here at DRN" allows parties to understand who is helping them, and provides some recognition to the volunteers - from time to time parties will give barnstars to a volunteer for a job well done - and while this isn't why we all do DR, it does make us feel good - and the key thing here is it makes new volunteers satisfied, and thus more likely to continue DR. DRN was created for two reasons, to make it easier to file a dispute, and to make it easier to volunteer - one literally looks at a thread and leaves comments on how they see things. It's an infinite loop, and at present things are going the wrong way. Without a word limit, threads become TL;DR, so new volunteers take a glance at them and either think "ugh, too hard" or "someone must surely have addressed this issue already" and the thread gets left alone. We burnout. A year ago, DR volunteers was likely at its lowest point - with the creation of DRN it's started to improve, but the ratio of disputants to volunteers, or even disputes to volunteers, is very bad. Again, you'll see my stats soon, but it's not like I haven't thought this through - I've been working on this for months. I would be interested to hear as to why you think DRN works well at the present time, and why you think DR in general is functioning well with the amount of volunteers we have at present. Regards, Steven Zhang Get involved in DR! 12:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure if you noticed, but nowhere in this thread have I used unpublished results of the statistics measuring activity of dispute resolution forums. I've made comment on my general observations of dispute resolution (which can be seen by anyone by just glancing over the DRN archives) but have not referred to the stats until it was published (see above). You can see the results in the link provided. You have every right to disagree - but realize that you stand alone here. I have other important things to do, so I will not be replying any further here. I, as well as the others here, consider this matter closed. Steven Zhang Get involved in DR! 01:04, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
I like the opening statements requirement. It's far too easy to further muddy the waters if you let a guy spiel for paragraphs. How many DRN threads become largely about the opening statement? I haven't checked, but I'm sure it happens enough to be worrisome. It's better for us and for them if they have to get straight to the point. Ideally. Xavexgoem ( talk) 04:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I think we can all do with a bit less absolute "the effect of change X WILL be Y" thinking and a few less "my opinion on the entire proposal is Z" comments. Better to say that you think that a particular part of the proposal will have a particular effect. I seriously doubt that the proposal is all good or all bad, or that anyone is 100% sure which parts are good and which parts are bad. No proposal is ever as beneficial as its proponents predict, or as harmful as its opponents predict. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 01:40, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
What does everyone think the word limit should be, if we're going to have one? I'm thinking 400 words might be good to start off with, but I'm open to persuasion. We can always revise it upwards or downwards as we see how involved editors react. — Mr. Stradivarius ( have a chat) 06:49, 7 July 2012 (UTC)