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Can be found at Wikipedia:Assume high intelligence. - Samsara ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
This is my proposed expansion of the policy:
Samsara ( talk • contribs) 13:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
It is my opinion that this should never have been a policy, only a guideline. Let me explain why. The first point would be that what does and doesn't constitute good faith is hugely open to interpretation. Nowadays, most criticism of anything seems to firstly be countered with a reference to this policy, which invariably stalls constructive discussions. "You're not letting me get away with whatever changes I want to make, therefore you are assuming bad faith and I win because you violated policy."
Secondly, this policy is completely unenforceable. All it does is it makes people express whatever bad faith they have in more nefarious and less detectable ways. My objection to this policy is currently the deepest resentment I have to any part of Wikipedia, and I hope that this can be addressed, because apparently the disclaimer, This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary, is being ignored by the vast majority of people.
I come from an academic background where discussion is encouraged, and anything that concerns the matter at hand can be said in whatever mode most suits the speaker and will be answered in whatever mode most suits the respondent (with usually some consideration given to the need to speak in terms that the questioner can understand). In fact, it is understood as a challenge to always bring forward the heaviest criticism one can come up with. It has always been my understanding that Wikipedia aspires to this academic mode of discussion to resolve disputes, and that at the heart of Wikipedia, there is a belief that questions can be answered with a combination of intellect (aka common sense) and use of outside sources. However, a lot of people on Wikipedia are already having trouble distinguishing even between harsh criticism ("that's a stupid thing to do") and personal attacks ("you are an asshole"), so in combination with WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA (why are there two of these, by the way?), this policy is an absolute recipe for disaster. I would hope that we can come to some fruitful discourse on what can be done to resolve the current situation. My proposal is to relegate WP:AGF to a guideline, which in my opinion is really what it is, and ever can be. It's not enforceable as a policy because it's not yet possible (and God help us!) to screw with somebody's neurons to change some basic belief they hold about another person. Note that this is in contrast with other policies, which can be enforced by editing and deleting pages, and executing protections and blocks. Samsara ( talk • contribs) 16:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I would also support changing this from policy to guideline. WP:NPA and WP:VANDAL suffice enough to be policy, but however how often can obviously suspicious edits be considered as good faith and you be considered as having bad faith for seeing them as inappropriate (even the bolded sentence in one of the paragraphs mention that this should not stop one of doing so). So based on these circumstances calling this a guideline would be more accurate. ¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 04:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Per well-reasoned arguments above, I would also support a change from policy to guideline. — Doug Bell talk 22:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I think this is a great guideline in theory - without it, the level of bickering and nastiness even among good contributors would really be through the roof.
However. This is the first time I've ever looked at this actual page and I am a bit surprised at how unfocused and rambling it is. "Assume high intelligence?" And the whole bit about giving people the benefit of the doubt in case they made a bad edit but couldnt fix it because their connection dropped? It's very fuzzy. It seems to me that this can be pruned substantially and still have the same thrust. Thoughts? -- Dmz5 22:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted the unilateral change by Samsara back to the longstanding AGF policy. A consensus would be required to apply a change as significant as "assuming high intelligence", because the policy is intended to speak to assuptions about other persons' intent, not about other persons' aptitude, intelligence or skill. ... Kenosis 00:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
What if a person does not consider himself intelligent? Are we to continue to assume high intelligence if a person declares that he has some medically diagnosed retardation? With good-faith at least, we can confidently say that bad-faith contributors are not welcome; non-intelligent people are. — Centrx→ talk • 03:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
(outdent)I'm assuming you have a point? Much like an editor would not be required to assume good faith on someone's actions in the presence of evidence to the contrary, that editor also would not be required to assume intelligence in the presence of evidence to the contrary. -- Bobblehead 09:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
How about using something along the lines of "informed edits" instead of intelligence? I agree in theory, but "high intelligence" or even "intelligence" makes this seem silly to me. — bbatsell ¿? 05:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, revert waring on the Assume Good Faith guideline? I've submitted a full protection request for this guideline. Now break off into teams
Tiger teams and discuss a solution to the revert war. :P --
Bobblehead 02:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I have protected the page to end the revert war currently taking place. Parties are encouraged to discuss here and then request unprotection once an agreement has been reached. RFC, Mediation, or Arbitration may be of use. Administrators are reminded not to edit protected pages in order to continue an edit war. Essjay (Talk) 02:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I certainly would not assume, merely on the basis of edits or commentary, that someone is lacking in in intelligence, but I think to assume high intelligence as in exceptional human intelligence overstates the case, and may be unduely optimistic. And to a certain degree it might be argued that intelligence should be less of an issue than the ability to read and write and to think critically and dispassionately and the quality of being informed as to the facts pertaining to the subject of an article. Possibly, this phrase might be better rendered assume a reasonable degree of intelligence or other moderate words to this effect. Cryptonymius 15:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, on second thought, if this had been written as do not assume the other person is stupid merely for disagreeing with you I would have probably scanned by it without blinking an eye, though I suppose this is covered in etiquette or something, somewhere else. (And as for not reading the talk page...just trying to get a sense for what's going on around here, and how things ought to be done, becomes a bit daunting at times, and perhaps leads one occasionally to jumping right and beginning to blather...in hopes of making sense to someone...somewhere...out...there... ) Cryptonymius 07:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is a brief summary of the problems I see with this newly added addendum to WP:AGF, recently advocated by User:Samsara, which currently reads as follows:
In sum, any principle, expectation, demand, or guideline to assume high intelligence is not properly a part of WP:AGF, and quite arguably should not be a part of any WP project page. ... Kenosis 05:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
RE "[I]f somebody does something that looks stupid to you ... would either assume that the person is being evil or stupid" ??? If somebody does something stupid where? On the Wikipedia talk pages or in the articles? Stupid to whom? No one's required to make such judgments as are suggested by Samsara's choice between "evil or stupid", unless a situation has gotten to the point where it's headed towards, or already in, a request for mediation, RFC or RFA. And, "evil" is not anywhere near specific enough, and arguably should never be a permissible judgment about another participant in Wikipedia. And in general, people do not do things in Wikipedia, but instead say things, question things, assert things, wonder about things, etc. And, an action, where someone does something such as deletes a whole section or article, inserts random characters or other such guff, etc. may call for a reasoned judgment whether it's likely accidental. If someone does something that doesn't appear likely to be random or accidental, such as inserting in an article the words "Professor X sucks", we're called to make a judgment whether it's a mistake (possibly unfamiliar, inexperienced, perhaps clumsy, or even, as Samsara says, stupid) or whether it's vandalism (malicious), and never whether it's "evil". Other situations, such as suspected spamming, may call for judgments whether it's merely enthusiasm about a preferred website or POV, or whether it has commercial motivations or other self-serving motives. Yet other situations may call for other judgments such as whether a mass copyedit of an article is doing something too broad or too agressive at one time. When people do things such as those I just mentioned, the issue is not, ever, a simple choice between whether the other editor is being "evil or stupid", as Samsara says above. And it's not necessarily a required choice between "stupid" and "not in good faith" either.
The vast majority of circumstances, however, have to do not with what others' do but with what users' say, assert, question, include in an article, state on the talk page, etc. The vast majority of instances can, and should, be dealt with on the basis of the particular conceptual or substantive or procedural issues at hand, be they related to an article's content or to points being discussed on a talk page. In no way does this process require anyone to make a judgment about others' innate abilities in order to make a personal decision whether another user deserves to be assumed to be participating in good faith. The policy guideline WP:AGF directs us to AGF-- period-- unless there is substantial evidence to the contrary which can be articulated and demonstrated to other editors. And even if, in the context of arguing to fellow WP users your grounds upon which you may have ceased to assume good faith on the part of someone else, the possible question comes up as to whether things said or done by that editor are best interpreted as either incompetent or malicious, such a question would be only one of an extremely large number of possibilities and questions that could potentially be involved in the analysis.
Making speculative judgments about others' innate abilities, such as to "assume high intelligence", is completely irrelevant to assuming good faith. This proposal plainly did not have consunsus to begin with, and plainly has substantial opposition on a number or grounds by at least six or seven users thus far, with only marginal support by about three users if I'm counting the views correctly. The paragraph about "assume high intelligence" should be removed promptly upon unlocking of the project page, and not be replaced unless and until there is a clear consensus for its inclusion in the project page. ... Kenosis 16:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of where it belongs, it is a terrible break with WP procedure to introduce a change like this without talking to a larger community, and without having come up with a coherent and defensible explanation of what it means and what the implications and likely side effects are. This is WP policy, whether we call it a guideline or a policy, and it's not the place to be throwing neat ideas in randomly. Please, proponents, once the page is unlocked, yank this in toto and prepare an essay explaining what you mean and why it should be part of WP policy, and where you think it should go, and then float the essay at the Village Pump and wikien-l for feedback. Georgewilliamherbert 06:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Proposed extension: Equally important as assuming good faith is to assume high intelligence. Although we may not know many of the other people who edit Wikipedia articles alongside us, it is likely that they have a curiosity about life that derives from high cognitive ability. Therefore, when you approach people, a typical phrase you may wish to use is, "you may already be aware of this, but [...]".
When examining other people's edits, it is important not only to check facts diligently to ensure we do not introduce factual inaccuracies into debates and articles, but also to remember that our fellow contributors sometimes make mistakes in spite of "knowing it, really", and that it is possible that they are aware of the mistakes they've made, but were not able to correct them before somebody else did. This can be due to any number of reasons, including slow connections, network failure, computer failure, inefficient peripheral devices, and sudden demands of our real life environments.
The bits that are clearly rejected by the current talk page participants are stricken out above, the bits that have been tentativly rejected are underlined. We're pretty much left with an extention of the existing third paragraph, copied below the proposed extension. I think that the action is over here, that the page can be unprotected and that we can agree that "Equally important as assuming good faith is to assume intelligence" has no consensus at this time. Anyone demure?
brenneman 06:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
All of the proposed material is irrelevant to WP:AGF-- completely irrelevant. Even "assume reasonable intelligence" or some such approach would be irrelevant. Even a statement such as "assume rationality" quickly finds numerous exceptions where an edit or a discussion is neither intelligent nor rational, but we're still called to assume good faith unless there's clearly demonstrable evidence to the contrary. However, since the project page already has a paragraph which serves as a brief 'advice column', I would support the inclusion of an additional statement or two about how one might wish to communicate the assumption of good faith. The example of saying "you may already be aware of this, but [...]" is one of many that could be used as examples of how to communicate one's assumption of good faith (even though this is more in the realm of WP:CIV). Possibly even a note of advice about attempting to demonstrate some degree of patience with other users might conceivably help editors' demonstrate their assumption of good faith.
But any dictum for assuming intelligence, aptitude, competence, or any other type of ability, experience or skill, is not among the necessary conditions for assuming good faith, and should be rejected with respect to this project page. ... Kenosis 16:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that assuming competence is important, and the idea is very similiar to assuming good faith. But, it may is better stated somewhere else. I started User:Friday/Competence not long ago- if this idea has legs maybe it should become Wikipedia:Assume competence and be a seperate-but-related guideline to this one. Friday (talk) 17:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
It clearly doesn't have consensus, and at the very least is controversial enough to warrant discussion on the talk page *before* including it in the policy/guideline. Can an admin please remove it pending further discussion here? Thanks. Stevage 01:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Hasn't Assume Good Faith been one of Wikipedia's fundamental policies for years? If we make it a guideline, people won't treat it as if it were so important. -- Chris is me 14:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
(undent) There are only 42 policies, while there are hundreds of guidelines. Given the relative numbers, and the general stability of policies, I suggest that changing a page from a guideline to a policy not be treated casually; at minimum, notification of the planned change belongs on this page before the change occurs, so there can be discussion.
In this case, the page has been reverted back to a guideline, something with which I personally agree. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 23:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed a lot of interactions here in which one editor throws an AGF link at another as part of a response to some point in a dispute. The effect of this is often an escalation of ill will, and a further wandering from the constructive point at hand, because they end up arguing over whether one person was assuming good faith, and whether the other was assuming the assumption of good faith...
I would suggest, and maybe someone can figure out a way to include this in the guideline, that the correct response to a "failure to AGF" is not to accuse them of failing to AGF, but to explain your intentions, and show that you're working for the best of Wikipedia be refocusing the discussion on that, and not on who may have violated which civility-related policy.
Opinions? - GTBacchus( talk) 18:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Can be found at Wikipedia:Assume high intelligence. - Samsara ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
This is my proposed expansion of the policy:
Samsara ( talk • contribs) 13:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
It is my opinion that this should never have been a policy, only a guideline. Let me explain why. The first point would be that what does and doesn't constitute good faith is hugely open to interpretation. Nowadays, most criticism of anything seems to firstly be countered with a reference to this policy, which invariably stalls constructive discussions. "You're not letting me get away with whatever changes I want to make, therefore you are assuming bad faith and I win because you violated policy."
Secondly, this policy is completely unenforceable. All it does is it makes people express whatever bad faith they have in more nefarious and less detectable ways. My objection to this policy is currently the deepest resentment I have to any part of Wikipedia, and I hope that this can be addressed, because apparently the disclaimer, This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary, is being ignored by the vast majority of people.
I come from an academic background where discussion is encouraged, and anything that concerns the matter at hand can be said in whatever mode most suits the speaker and will be answered in whatever mode most suits the respondent (with usually some consideration given to the need to speak in terms that the questioner can understand). In fact, it is understood as a challenge to always bring forward the heaviest criticism one can come up with. It has always been my understanding that Wikipedia aspires to this academic mode of discussion to resolve disputes, and that at the heart of Wikipedia, there is a belief that questions can be answered with a combination of intellect (aka common sense) and use of outside sources. However, a lot of people on Wikipedia are already having trouble distinguishing even between harsh criticism ("that's a stupid thing to do") and personal attacks ("you are an asshole"), so in combination with WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA (why are there two of these, by the way?), this policy is an absolute recipe for disaster. I would hope that we can come to some fruitful discourse on what can be done to resolve the current situation. My proposal is to relegate WP:AGF to a guideline, which in my opinion is really what it is, and ever can be. It's not enforceable as a policy because it's not yet possible (and God help us!) to screw with somebody's neurons to change some basic belief they hold about another person. Note that this is in contrast with other policies, which can be enforced by editing and deleting pages, and executing protections and blocks. Samsara ( talk • contribs) 16:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I would also support changing this from policy to guideline. WP:NPA and WP:VANDAL suffice enough to be policy, but however how often can obviously suspicious edits be considered as good faith and you be considered as having bad faith for seeing them as inappropriate (even the bolded sentence in one of the paragraphs mention that this should not stop one of doing so). So based on these circumstances calling this a guideline would be more accurate. ¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 04:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Per well-reasoned arguments above, I would also support a change from policy to guideline. — Doug Bell talk 22:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I think this is a great guideline in theory - without it, the level of bickering and nastiness even among good contributors would really be through the roof.
However. This is the first time I've ever looked at this actual page and I am a bit surprised at how unfocused and rambling it is. "Assume high intelligence?" And the whole bit about giving people the benefit of the doubt in case they made a bad edit but couldnt fix it because their connection dropped? It's very fuzzy. It seems to me that this can be pruned substantially and still have the same thrust. Thoughts? -- Dmz5 22:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted the unilateral change by Samsara back to the longstanding AGF policy. A consensus would be required to apply a change as significant as "assuming high intelligence", because the policy is intended to speak to assuptions about other persons' intent, not about other persons' aptitude, intelligence or skill. ... Kenosis 00:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
What if a person does not consider himself intelligent? Are we to continue to assume high intelligence if a person declares that he has some medically diagnosed retardation? With good-faith at least, we can confidently say that bad-faith contributors are not welcome; non-intelligent people are. — Centrx→ talk • 03:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
(outdent)I'm assuming you have a point? Much like an editor would not be required to assume good faith on someone's actions in the presence of evidence to the contrary, that editor also would not be required to assume intelligence in the presence of evidence to the contrary. -- Bobblehead 09:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
How about using something along the lines of "informed edits" instead of intelligence? I agree in theory, but "high intelligence" or even "intelligence" makes this seem silly to me. — bbatsell ¿? 05:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, revert waring on the Assume Good Faith guideline? I've submitted a full protection request for this guideline. Now break off into teams
Tiger teams and discuss a solution to the revert war. :P --
Bobblehead 02:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I have protected the page to end the revert war currently taking place. Parties are encouraged to discuss here and then request unprotection once an agreement has been reached. RFC, Mediation, or Arbitration may be of use. Administrators are reminded not to edit protected pages in order to continue an edit war. Essjay (Talk) 02:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I certainly would not assume, merely on the basis of edits or commentary, that someone is lacking in in intelligence, but I think to assume high intelligence as in exceptional human intelligence overstates the case, and may be unduely optimistic. And to a certain degree it might be argued that intelligence should be less of an issue than the ability to read and write and to think critically and dispassionately and the quality of being informed as to the facts pertaining to the subject of an article. Possibly, this phrase might be better rendered assume a reasonable degree of intelligence or other moderate words to this effect. Cryptonymius 15:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, on second thought, if this had been written as do not assume the other person is stupid merely for disagreeing with you I would have probably scanned by it without blinking an eye, though I suppose this is covered in etiquette or something, somewhere else. (And as for not reading the talk page...just trying to get a sense for what's going on around here, and how things ought to be done, becomes a bit daunting at times, and perhaps leads one occasionally to jumping right and beginning to blather...in hopes of making sense to someone...somewhere...out...there... ) Cryptonymius 07:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is a brief summary of the problems I see with this newly added addendum to WP:AGF, recently advocated by User:Samsara, which currently reads as follows:
In sum, any principle, expectation, demand, or guideline to assume high intelligence is not properly a part of WP:AGF, and quite arguably should not be a part of any WP project page. ... Kenosis 05:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
RE "[I]f somebody does something that looks stupid to you ... would either assume that the person is being evil or stupid" ??? If somebody does something stupid where? On the Wikipedia talk pages or in the articles? Stupid to whom? No one's required to make such judgments as are suggested by Samsara's choice between "evil or stupid", unless a situation has gotten to the point where it's headed towards, or already in, a request for mediation, RFC or RFA. And, "evil" is not anywhere near specific enough, and arguably should never be a permissible judgment about another participant in Wikipedia. And in general, people do not do things in Wikipedia, but instead say things, question things, assert things, wonder about things, etc. And, an action, where someone does something such as deletes a whole section or article, inserts random characters or other such guff, etc. may call for a reasoned judgment whether it's likely accidental. If someone does something that doesn't appear likely to be random or accidental, such as inserting in an article the words "Professor X sucks", we're called to make a judgment whether it's a mistake (possibly unfamiliar, inexperienced, perhaps clumsy, or even, as Samsara says, stupid) or whether it's vandalism (malicious), and never whether it's "evil". Other situations, such as suspected spamming, may call for judgments whether it's merely enthusiasm about a preferred website or POV, or whether it has commercial motivations or other self-serving motives. Yet other situations may call for other judgments such as whether a mass copyedit of an article is doing something too broad or too agressive at one time. When people do things such as those I just mentioned, the issue is not, ever, a simple choice between whether the other editor is being "evil or stupid", as Samsara says above. And it's not necessarily a required choice between "stupid" and "not in good faith" either.
The vast majority of circumstances, however, have to do not with what others' do but with what users' say, assert, question, include in an article, state on the talk page, etc. The vast majority of instances can, and should, be dealt with on the basis of the particular conceptual or substantive or procedural issues at hand, be they related to an article's content or to points being discussed on a talk page. In no way does this process require anyone to make a judgment about others' innate abilities in order to make a personal decision whether another user deserves to be assumed to be participating in good faith. The policy guideline WP:AGF directs us to AGF-- period-- unless there is substantial evidence to the contrary which can be articulated and demonstrated to other editors. And even if, in the context of arguing to fellow WP users your grounds upon which you may have ceased to assume good faith on the part of someone else, the possible question comes up as to whether things said or done by that editor are best interpreted as either incompetent or malicious, such a question would be only one of an extremely large number of possibilities and questions that could potentially be involved in the analysis.
Making speculative judgments about others' innate abilities, such as to "assume high intelligence", is completely irrelevant to assuming good faith. This proposal plainly did not have consunsus to begin with, and plainly has substantial opposition on a number or grounds by at least six or seven users thus far, with only marginal support by about three users if I'm counting the views correctly. The paragraph about "assume high intelligence" should be removed promptly upon unlocking of the project page, and not be replaced unless and until there is a clear consensus for its inclusion in the project page. ... Kenosis 16:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of where it belongs, it is a terrible break with WP procedure to introduce a change like this without talking to a larger community, and without having come up with a coherent and defensible explanation of what it means and what the implications and likely side effects are. This is WP policy, whether we call it a guideline or a policy, and it's not the place to be throwing neat ideas in randomly. Please, proponents, once the page is unlocked, yank this in toto and prepare an essay explaining what you mean and why it should be part of WP policy, and where you think it should go, and then float the essay at the Village Pump and wikien-l for feedback. Georgewilliamherbert 06:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Proposed extension: Equally important as assuming good faith is to assume high intelligence. Although we may not know many of the other people who edit Wikipedia articles alongside us, it is likely that they have a curiosity about life that derives from high cognitive ability. Therefore, when you approach people, a typical phrase you may wish to use is, "you may already be aware of this, but [...]".
When examining other people's edits, it is important not only to check facts diligently to ensure we do not introduce factual inaccuracies into debates and articles, but also to remember that our fellow contributors sometimes make mistakes in spite of "knowing it, really", and that it is possible that they are aware of the mistakes they've made, but were not able to correct them before somebody else did. This can be due to any number of reasons, including slow connections, network failure, computer failure, inefficient peripheral devices, and sudden demands of our real life environments.
The bits that are clearly rejected by the current talk page participants are stricken out above, the bits that have been tentativly rejected are underlined. We're pretty much left with an extention of the existing third paragraph, copied below the proposed extension. I think that the action is over here, that the page can be unprotected and that we can agree that "Equally important as assuming good faith is to assume intelligence" has no consensus at this time. Anyone demure?
brenneman 06:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
All of the proposed material is irrelevant to WP:AGF-- completely irrelevant. Even "assume reasonable intelligence" or some such approach would be irrelevant. Even a statement such as "assume rationality" quickly finds numerous exceptions where an edit or a discussion is neither intelligent nor rational, but we're still called to assume good faith unless there's clearly demonstrable evidence to the contrary. However, since the project page already has a paragraph which serves as a brief 'advice column', I would support the inclusion of an additional statement or two about how one might wish to communicate the assumption of good faith. The example of saying "you may already be aware of this, but [...]" is one of many that could be used as examples of how to communicate one's assumption of good faith (even though this is more in the realm of WP:CIV). Possibly even a note of advice about attempting to demonstrate some degree of patience with other users might conceivably help editors' demonstrate their assumption of good faith.
But any dictum for assuming intelligence, aptitude, competence, or any other type of ability, experience or skill, is not among the necessary conditions for assuming good faith, and should be rejected with respect to this project page. ... Kenosis 16:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that assuming competence is important, and the idea is very similiar to assuming good faith. But, it may is better stated somewhere else. I started User:Friday/Competence not long ago- if this idea has legs maybe it should become Wikipedia:Assume competence and be a seperate-but-related guideline to this one. Friday (talk) 17:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
It clearly doesn't have consensus, and at the very least is controversial enough to warrant discussion on the talk page *before* including it in the policy/guideline. Can an admin please remove it pending further discussion here? Thanks. Stevage 01:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Hasn't Assume Good Faith been one of Wikipedia's fundamental policies for years? If we make it a guideline, people won't treat it as if it were so important. -- Chris is me 14:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
(undent) There are only 42 policies, while there are hundreds of guidelines. Given the relative numbers, and the general stability of policies, I suggest that changing a page from a guideline to a policy not be treated casually; at minimum, notification of the planned change belongs on this page before the change occurs, so there can be discussion.
In this case, the page has been reverted back to a guideline, something with which I personally agree. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 23:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed a lot of interactions here in which one editor throws an AGF link at another as part of a response to some point in a dispute. The effect of this is often an escalation of ill will, and a further wandering from the constructive point at hand, because they end up arguing over whether one person was assuming good faith, and whether the other was assuming the assumption of good faith...
I would suggest, and maybe someone can figure out a way to include this in the guideline, that the correct response to a "failure to AGF" is not to accuse them of failing to AGF, but to explain your intentions, and show that you're working for the best of Wikipedia be refocusing the discussion on that, and not on who may have violated which civility-related policy.
Opinions? - GTBacchus( talk) 18:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)