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Greetings, Stargate editors!
As you may be aware, for the last several weeks there has been extensive discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television) about how Wikipedia articles on television episodes should be named. Editors from many areas of Wikipedia, including members of several different television WikiProjects, have worked together and come up with a general guideline that article titles should include disambiguating phrases only when there is another article on Wikipedia with the same name as the episode name. Thus, if you were creating episode articles for Knight Rider, the episode Circus Knights would not need any disambiguation, whereas Nobody Does It Better (Knight Rider) would, in order to differentiate it from Nobody Does It Better (song). However, the guideline also recommends that Circus Knights (Knight Rider) exist as a redirect to the episode.
The discussion has been fairly well-advertised at the Village Pump, in many WikiProjects' talk pages and on the talk pages of many television program episode lists. However, the editors contributing to the discussion at WP:TV-NC felt that it was appropriate to make one last call at affected WikiProjects for discussion before people started moving episode articles to new names.
We appreciate the work that editors do in every area of Wikipedia, and want you to feel included in the decision-making process. Thank you for your help! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yaksha ( talk • contribs) .
Just giving everyone here the heads up that i'm going to start moving pages now. The title with the disambiguation will exist as a redirect to the non-disamgibuated article, and i'll clean up any double redirects the moving may cause. -- `/aksha 05:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
is nominated at AfD by Shakla. Matthew Fenton ( talk · contribs · count · email) 14:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
It's not that the recent archiving is controversial or anything like that, but I've just been noticing that people seem to be archiving lately simply for the sake of archiving instead of for talk page size. If the talk page isn't massively active, and there's no issue about the size of the page, then why archive discussion less than two weeks old? Sometimes I get the feeling people just like to fight for something, even if they never had a strong feeling about it one way or another.
At the very least now the above note about episode titles was kept, which was originally archived on the same day that a comment was left on it.
Not everyone checks talk pages very often, and some conversations show people not directly involved with us what's been recently going on. Again, not a major issue, but there's no point in archiving that which doesn't need to be archived. I know two weeks seems like a long time to some people, but it's not. If the talk page isn't "full" then calm down. I've seen a lot of discussions where someone responded to conversations that hadn't been active in a month, and more quality discussion came from that. Clean it out when you need the room, or when it's really old or a simple open and close issue (like, where is that link? here is that link. done). There's no harm in keeping them if you can, and there is likely benefit when it's reasonably recent. -- Ned Scott 00:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
There is currently a renaming request for many WikiProject "participant" categories at Wikipedia:User categories for discussion#Participants in WPs. Our participant category, Category:Participants in WikiProject Stargate, is one of them. It sounds like a fairly non controversial issue to me, and I have no objection to it. It might seem odd to even worry about it, but considering we want to encourage people to use quality standards when writing, then a little nitpicking like this can help set a good example. Not that it really matters much in either way. However, some editors are a bit bothered that the WikiProjects were not asked first and seem to be opposing based on that alone. Personally, I think it's such a minor issue I'm not bothered by that.
None the less, we can have an individual discussion on it if anyone wants. -- Ned Scott 01:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Is the glyph in the project title (on the project page) below the line of the other letters? Lockesdonkey 04:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Problem fixed if you just use a complete image. I've already done it, go see. -- Alfakim-- talk 06:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Beginning cross-post.
End cross-post. Please do not comment more in this section.
To give some coherency to the many little sf-oriented communities on Wikipedia.-- ragesoss 20:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
For some strange reason, the spam blacklist has tagged GateWorld as spam, though I can't find it in the actual list. I've asked about it here: m:Talk:Spam_blacklist#GateWorld — Brother Flounder (aka DiegoTehMexican) 04:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Update: Looks like it's been fixed. — Brother Flounder (aka DiegoTehMexican) 16:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The spoiler template used in pages like Seth (Stargate SG-1) creates a gian blank area in the page because it moves the plot below the bottom of the infobox. Has anyone notices this? - Peregrinefisher 18:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I fixed it. It only occured if your screen was small because the text of the spoiler tag wasn't allowed to wrap to two lines. -- Alfakim-- talk 18:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
So ... Stargate series 3? — pd_THOR | =/\= | 17:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
If you're uploading a Stargate image, use this: WP:WPSG/Image. Select your licensing tag (tv-screenshot), then in the description box, type:
{{subst:WP:WPSG/Image}}
You can also specify relevant information (recommended):
e.g {{subst:WP:WPSG/Image|from=SG1}} e.g. {{subst:WP:WPSG/Image|of=Daniel Jackson ascending}} e.g. {{subst:WP:WPSG/Image|in=Anubis (Stargate)}} e.g. {{subst:WP:WPSG/Image|source=http://www.foo.com Foo}}
The more information you add, the better the output will be, although no extra information is strictly necessary. Using this template also adds the image to the correct Stargate image category. -- Alfakim-- talk 21:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Tone has started an article on the next Stargate series at Stargate: The third series. I think that this article could use a better name, possibly Third Stargate Series. What do you all think? — Brother Flounder 03:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. -- Kbdank71 14:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
At present each article contains a trivia section, we need to mass these (and if possible - integrate) - see WP:AVTRIV, trivia is non-encyclopaedic (ref: Talk:Line_in_the_Sand_(Stargate_SG-1)#Stargate_SG-1_Episode_Style_Sheet, Talk:The_Road_Not_Taken_(Stargate_SG-1)) thanks/ Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 19:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC) A mass trivia page may read more like a fan guide than an encyclopedia. These sections should be considered 'notes'. Only relevant info unable to be presented in the body of the article should be listed. The link matthewfenton provided takes you to an excerpt from the stargate episode style guide pertaining to such note sections. Please refer to it when editing or contributing to a note section. thanks Mwhope 16:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Noticed no mention of stargate in this list so I added some refferences to I'm sure theres more I didn't think of.
Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 February 1#Template:Sgspoiler. -- Ned Scott 19:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
In a strange twist, {{ Sgspoiler}} was kept but {{ Spoiler-season}} was redirected to {{tl|spoiler}]. Sgspoiler is now independent of Spoiler-season and will still operate in the same way that it did before. -- Ned Scott 20:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
That's great news that it got kept! Stargate deserves it's own spoiler template.
I've replaced Sgspoiler on all articles now. On some it was replaced with {{ spoiler}}, and on others it was replaced with {{ spoiler-season}}. I've introduced a new paramater for {{ sgspoiler}} (FORCESHOW) that should satisfy those worried that it unnecessarily displays the show. -- GunnarRene 22:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
It was "no consensus", not "keep". I made those changes to reflect the compromise worked out in the discussion so that we won't lose the functionality if there's a re-nomination. -- GunnarRene 20:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
The only difference in appearance between sgspoiler and spoiler-season is that sgspoiler links to the episode section, while spoiler-season links only to the list of episodes article. Do we really want the Stargate spoiler notice to link to List of Stargate SG-1 episodes#Season 9 rather than List of Stargate SG-1 episodes? Isn't it possible that the section leads will spoil people unintentionally? What do you think? -- GunnarRene 20:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
These duplicate an episode, verbatim, all these links to "Stargate SG-1 Solutions" need to be removed. WP:EL#Restrictions on linking: "Linking to websites that display copyrighted works is acceptable as long as the website has licensed the work. Knowingly directing others to a site that violates copyright may be considered contributory infringement." thanks/ Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 19:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
There have been a lot of attempts recently to get rid of spoiler tags, both in general and in specific cases. I think we should try and meet the people making those attempts half-way by only using spoiler tags where actually necessary. One place we have them and don't need them is episode pages. I think it is obvious that the "Plot" section of an episode page is going to contain spoilers about that episode, so I propose we remove all spoiler tags from such places (unless they refer to spoilers of an episode that comes after the one the article is about). Any objections? -- Tango 20:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
After recently being shown that page I have come to the conclusion it desperately needs a rewrite to comply with Wikipedia Guidelines and Policies. (Notable it encourages spam, copyright violations, MoS violations, trivia and misc.) thanks/ Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 23:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The Road Not Taken (Stargate SG-1) - someone nominated as a copyvio. thanks/ Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 23:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
While looking around, I have found a lot of references to "Sgt. Davis" and "Technician", all played by Gary Jones. I think it would be good if all of these could have one standard "correct" name, which I believe to be Walter Harriman. Jacobpauldyer 11:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I've found the reference I was looking for. Episode 901, he introduces himself to Col. Mitchell as "Chief Master Sargent Walter Harriman". I think it's fair to assume he knows his own name. Jacobpauldyer 21:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that we need to have our own list of important Templates and Userboxes etc in one place. Now obviously, we already have a few, but I might suggest that the templates be revised. I know I've been quiet for a while, but that's because I have been extremely busy elsewhere. Alteran Ancient 13:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Just so you all know, I've set things up so that as soon as someone adds their name to the Participants list at the project (i.e. joins the project), they are presented with the following Welcome Page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Stargate/Welcome.
We should use this page to introduce new editors straightaway to the core principles of the project. If we can get our principles sorted, e.g. the episode style sheet, writing style, etc., then these can be summarised in the welcome message. -- Alfakim-- talk 15:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
71.142.240.224 09:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
would'nt it be 'the Alliance of Five Great Races' if we're a member now? i don't know though, they didn't change the name when a member of the alliance went extinct, so i guess it wouldn't changed when a new member joins? Idon'texist 18:13, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
oh. wait. if we're the fifth race, how we not in the Alliance. I'm confused. Idon'texist 18:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Humanity hasn't always been the 5th race - in the episode of that name the Asgard said we were well on the way to becoming the 5th race, in Unending, they said we were the 5th race. It's not really an alliance anymore, though. The Ancients have ascended and don't do much these days, the Asgard are gone, the Nox are isolationist and pacifist (although Earth should try and contact them again and see if they are more willing to be friends now we've advanced a bit more) and the Furlings... well, who knows? Humanity is more the heir of the alliance than a member of it. -- Tango 21:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
kay. i was just wondering. nevermind then. Idon'texist 00:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that the original lable the show gave should be the one used. In Episode 215 "The Fifth Race" an Asgard mentions exactly what Tango|Tango presents. therefore I say 'the Alliance of the Four Great Races.'
71.142.240.224
09:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC) edited 02:42, 18 May 2007 (PST)
Saw edits to the third series article by an IP addy saying a name had been chosen for it so went over to gateworld to confirm, and sure enough it had, so I went and moved the article over to that and also redirected Stargate universe to it as a common mis-capitalization.. Will add a little redirect here notice to the top of the page in a few minutes.. EnsRedShirt 08:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure many of you are aware but I thought I would mention the reason why myself and possibly others are not participating in the WikiProject. The U.S. has not aired this season yet, so we're quite a bit behind many of the posts going into the project. I also won't review any of the posts, articles, or participate in the project discussion because I don't want a spoiler. Anyway.. just thought I would mention it. Sorry.. hope we get on the same schedule again so I can join back in. Morphh (talk) 0:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
It is being discussed if Wikipedia should include spoiler warnings or not. Feel free to comment at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. -- Ned Scott 00:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Template:Sgspoiler has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Farix ( Talk) 22:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There's recently been a rash of templates created for minor characters, detailing every single episode that character has appeared in. These templates are then being put at the bottom of the episode page for each of those episodes. Is that type of thing really necessary? This information can all be found on the character's own page, without also being on every episode page. Also, where does one draw the line? Hathor gets a template, and she was only in 3 episodes. So does every single character in more than 1 episode get their own template at the bottom of every episode they were in? That would get extremely messy and ugly looking, I think. You can find the current templates here. (Oh and as a side note, if you are going to keep them they should probably translated into North American TV-lingo instead of European, since it's a North American show... ie: season, not series). -- Maelwys 15:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Some of you might be aware of WP:EPISODE, which is our guideline for dealing with articles about an individual episode from a show. Before it had the shortcut WP:EPISODE and the current title, Wikipedia:Television episodes, it was known as Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes [1]. Well, it still says pretty much the same thing as before, but some recent redirecting of episode articles that weren't seen as notable lead us to some new activity on the talk page of WP:EPISODE. We're now looking for input and comments to expanding the guideline at WT:EPISODE#Suggested expansion of guidelines. -- Ned Scott 04:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Template:Sokar Stories has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — ChoChoPK (球球PK) ( talk | contrib) 10:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys, what's new at the project? I've come across TfD for the XX stories templates. As far as I remember, a consensus was reached some time ago that only Apophis, Anubis, Ba'al and eventually Yu are the only system lords that can have own articles. The others are to be merged. Or was there another talk more recently? Brief me up, otherwise we should do the merging. -- Tone 19:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Voila, I did the basic merging. I also cut off the trivia section per new guidelines. The only problem is that the list has become quite big now. Shall we leave it as it is or is it better to split it in two lists, one for System Lords and one for the rest of them? -- Tone 21:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I have started the article on Flagisalis chem_tom 18:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I know this isn't really the right place for asking questions about the show, rather than our articles, but I'm going to do it anyway (the answer might be worth mentioning somewhere, so it's not entirely off-topic). In " Shroud", a little over half way through, O'Neill calls Landry "sir". By my understanding, they are both Major Generals, and in fact, I thought O'Neill was Landry's boss (although I'm not sure if that's been stated anywhere, it might just be fan speculation). Is this just a mistake by the writers, or am I missing something? -- Tango 20:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
The WikiProject Television episode coverage taskforce have recently been working on a review process for episode articles. There are a rash of articles about individual episodes which fail notability, and are unlikely to ever reach such requirements. Many contributors are unaware of the specific guidelines to assess notability in episode pages: Wikipedia:Television episodes. We have expanded these guidelines to make them more helpful and explanatory, and we invite you to read the guidelines, and make any comments on its talk page. After much discussion, we have created a proposed review process for dealing with problem articles. See: Wikipedia:Television article review process. We invite discussion of this process on its talk page. General comments about this whole process are welcome at the episode coverage taskforce talkpage. Thanks! Gwinva 10:13, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Template:SG-1 has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Maelwys 17:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Could we maybe get a database of pics that can be used on wikipedia for stargate. It would make articles a lot more interesting with pictures, and easier for the editors instead of having to hunt for free license pics -- Estrill5766 18:19, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to call the attention of members of this project to the recently revised guideline at WP:FICT, which now states that all sub-articles on fictional subjects must independently meet a new (stricter) notability ruling than what was in place prior to the new guideline. If enforced, the new guideline would likely result in the deletion and/or merging of hundreds of articles on fictional subjects, such as fictional characters, television episodes, fictional locations, etc. There is active discussion / disagreement related to this issue at Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction), and in the interests of ensuring the topic is fully discussed by interested editors, I would invite members of this project to participate in that discussion (whether you agree with the new guideline or not). Fairsing 22:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion going on at Talk:Stargate Atlantis regarding the Setting section. Some more opinions would be useful. -- Tango 15:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I have added a "project policies" section to the main page. Please add to it. It should include all the recommended reading on wikipedia policies relevant to us, and also any subpages where weve decided on policies for the project ourselves. I've already added a couple of the internal policies from memory of past discussions, but feel free to discuss them where you like. -- Alfakim-- talk 20:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
According to the notability discussion currently going on, a huge merging of the episode articles is going to happen if there are no improvements to the style. For a start, the plots should be written more in out-of universe style (not really hard), trivia sections should be deleted and details about production and reception are welcome. In prose, of course. Besides, after merging almost all Goa'uld articles into Goa'uld characters in Stargate, I intend to do the same for at least for the Tauri ones on a separate and all other to one that I can't find a good name for at the moment. -- Tone 14:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Note: Beginning with Season 4, all but 3 episodes have audio commentaries. Beginning with Season 5, TV Zone [2] devoted two out of its 7 specials per year to Stargate (~70 pages or more; with interviews, individual episode previews and reviews). Beginning with Season 6, about six episodes per season have specific DVD episode featurettes. Beginning with Season 8, an official Stargate Magazine [3] is/was published. Producer Joe Mallozzi blogs since Season 8. Some episodes may have received special media coverage, for examples for actors coming/leaving and episode landmarks (100th, 150th, 200th episode). Quite a few articles were nominated for awards, with a few wins.
Having said that, almost all Stargate ep articles are in a not-so-good state per content and style guidelines, and it is unlikely that they will be improved much because (1) there are just too many episodes, (2) gateworld.net is already doing a great job with them, (3) SG-1 fans have not been very active with bringing up ep articles to at least GA (not a accusation, just an observation), and (4) SG-1 is cancelled now, with fan devotion slowly going down. Below is a list of SG-1 episodes that may have notability without having their notablity established in the article. The articles that have the best chance to establish notability easily are bolded.
– sgeureka t•c 23:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Good job. There is not much additional work in bringing most of the articles in a state where they pass the notability criteria. But when info like above is added, it better is in prose, otherwise it looks like another trivia section. -- Tone 16:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
That looks excellent sgeureka, thank you for putting so much into that. — pd_THOR | =/\= | 14:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
In the Screenshots of Stargate SG-1 Category there are a lot of images that are screen cap from the television broadcast and have a network logo. Is it worthwhile for someone to go through this category and upload DVD screenshots in their place? Ank329 13:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Input requested at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Atlantis personnel in Stargate/2nd nom. -- Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 20:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Although there haven't been any major proposes for deletion of Stargate articles, shouldn't we start to transwiki the existing articles to [4] in case that someday someone plans to delete f.e. the episode articles. This would also give us the opportunity to recreate the individual character articles we had in former times. Diabound ( talk) 08:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
# | Title | Wikia link | Written by | Directed by | Original airdate (HBO) | Viewers |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | "Milfay" | Wikia:Carnivàle:Milfay | Daniel Knauf | Rodrigo Garcia | September 14, 2003 | 5.3 m.[Source] |
Milfay, Oklahoma Dustbowl, 1934. Ben Hawkins, a young farmer and chain gang fugitive, suffers strange dreams about a : trench war and a tattooed man stalking in a cornfield. When Ben buries his mother who had just died from dust pneumonia, a traveling carnival arrives. Ben's house is about to be demolished, and the police are nearing, so the carnival picks him up and provides him shelter. Lodz, the carnival's mentalist, is suspicious of Ben's dreams. Before the carnival leaves to its next location, Ben puts his hands on a lame girl's legs and heals her, laying the surrounding field to waste. Samson, the carnival's co-manager, relays Management's comment about Ben being expected to Jonesy, the carnival's Ferris wheel operator who suffers from a crippling knee injury. • Mintern, California. The small town preacher Brother Justin Crowe makes an Okie church attendee spew coins. He also has the same dreams as Ben, and in a particular vision visits a local Chinese establishment named Chin's when it begins to rain blood. Production notes This episode marks the first appearance of the Tattooed Man in Carnivàle. |
The more I think about it, the more I think that transwiki'ing is the easiest and quickest solution for the episodes. I started a season page in my userspace for SG-1, but that was so much work that I gave up after 4 episodes. Instead, I've done the following things.
I replaced the table in List of Stargate SG-1 episodes for Season 1 with {{ Episode list}}. The other seasons will follow. The major changes are that I merged the name of the writer, the director, an alternate episode number (so that there will be 1->214 and 101->1020 in the end) from the episode articles, and added a wikia link. What is left to do is
As a test, I transwikied The Enemy Within (Stargate SG-1) to Wikia:Stargate:The Enemy Within (the full link looks like http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/The_Enemy_Within ) and Emancipation (Stargate SG-1) to Wikia:Stargate:Emancipation. With some preparation (completed now, no-one else has to do it again), this was surprisingly quick. The procedure is as follows:
{{
wikipedia|[Wikipedia article name]}}
(e.g. {{
wikipedia|Hathor (Stargate SG-1)}}
) to the bottom of the wikia article. This will leave the
GFDL license intact.So, and what we have to do then is decide which episode we are going to keep as articles on wikipedia. I could set up a non-binding poll soon. Generally speaking, no more than five to eight episodes per season should remain on wikipedia, giving preferance to those article winning (or being nominated for) awards, fan favorites, and those articles you would personally improve (because it is your favorite). We can have another poll later to decide if we can lose a few more episode articles that don't establish notability, but this will be for a different time. – sgeureka t•c 00:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Most of the discussion here doesnt seem to consider this:
"All articles on Wikipedia must meet notability guidelines, which state that:
A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject."
"Reliable sources
Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."
I was afraid that means all episodes have to go, but Zero Hour (Stargate SG-1) is indeed good work and may suffice. -- Echosmoke ( talk) 00:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh alright she acted as if they were long lost friends but i understand now. i was seeing other goofs so i thought i would add as it can be funny to notice but stargate is still #1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.117.112 ( talk) 06:13, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Greetings, Stargate editors!
As you may be aware, for the last several weeks there has been extensive discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television) about how Wikipedia articles on television episodes should be named. Editors from many areas of Wikipedia, including members of several different television WikiProjects, have worked together and come up with a general guideline that article titles should include disambiguating phrases only when there is another article on Wikipedia with the same name as the episode name. Thus, if you were creating episode articles for Knight Rider, the episode Circus Knights would not need any disambiguation, whereas Nobody Does It Better (Knight Rider) would, in order to differentiate it from Nobody Does It Better (song). However, the guideline also recommends that Circus Knights (Knight Rider) exist as a redirect to the episode.
The discussion has been fairly well-advertised at the Village Pump, in many WikiProjects' talk pages and on the talk pages of many television program episode lists. However, the editors contributing to the discussion at WP:TV-NC felt that it was appropriate to make one last call at affected WikiProjects for discussion before people started moving episode articles to new names.
We appreciate the work that editors do in every area of Wikipedia, and want you to feel included in the decision-making process. Thank you for your help! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yaksha ( talk • contribs) .
Just giving everyone here the heads up that i'm going to start moving pages now. The title with the disambiguation will exist as a redirect to the non-disamgibuated article, and i'll clean up any double redirects the moving may cause. -- `/aksha 05:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
is nominated at AfD by Shakla. Matthew Fenton ( talk · contribs · count · email) 14:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
It's not that the recent archiving is controversial or anything like that, but I've just been noticing that people seem to be archiving lately simply for the sake of archiving instead of for talk page size. If the talk page isn't massively active, and there's no issue about the size of the page, then why archive discussion less than two weeks old? Sometimes I get the feeling people just like to fight for something, even if they never had a strong feeling about it one way or another.
At the very least now the above note about episode titles was kept, which was originally archived on the same day that a comment was left on it.
Not everyone checks talk pages very often, and some conversations show people not directly involved with us what's been recently going on. Again, not a major issue, but there's no point in archiving that which doesn't need to be archived. I know two weeks seems like a long time to some people, but it's not. If the talk page isn't "full" then calm down. I've seen a lot of discussions where someone responded to conversations that hadn't been active in a month, and more quality discussion came from that. Clean it out when you need the room, or when it's really old or a simple open and close issue (like, where is that link? here is that link. done). There's no harm in keeping them if you can, and there is likely benefit when it's reasonably recent. -- Ned Scott 00:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
There is currently a renaming request for many WikiProject "participant" categories at Wikipedia:User categories for discussion#Participants in WPs. Our participant category, Category:Participants in WikiProject Stargate, is one of them. It sounds like a fairly non controversial issue to me, and I have no objection to it. It might seem odd to even worry about it, but considering we want to encourage people to use quality standards when writing, then a little nitpicking like this can help set a good example. Not that it really matters much in either way. However, some editors are a bit bothered that the WikiProjects were not asked first and seem to be opposing based on that alone. Personally, I think it's such a minor issue I'm not bothered by that.
None the less, we can have an individual discussion on it if anyone wants. -- Ned Scott 01:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Is the glyph in the project title (on the project page) below the line of the other letters? Lockesdonkey 04:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Problem fixed if you just use a complete image. I've already done it, go see. -- Alfakim-- talk 06:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Beginning cross-post.
End cross-post. Please do not comment more in this section.
To give some coherency to the many little sf-oriented communities on Wikipedia.-- ragesoss 20:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
For some strange reason, the spam blacklist has tagged GateWorld as spam, though I can't find it in the actual list. I've asked about it here: m:Talk:Spam_blacklist#GateWorld — Brother Flounder (aka DiegoTehMexican) 04:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Update: Looks like it's been fixed. — Brother Flounder (aka DiegoTehMexican) 16:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The spoiler template used in pages like Seth (Stargate SG-1) creates a gian blank area in the page because it moves the plot below the bottom of the infobox. Has anyone notices this? - Peregrinefisher 18:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I fixed it. It only occured if your screen was small because the text of the spoiler tag wasn't allowed to wrap to two lines. -- Alfakim-- talk 18:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
So ... Stargate series 3? — pd_THOR | =/\= | 17:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
If you're uploading a Stargate image, use this: WP:WPSG/Image. Select your licensing tag (tv-screenshot), then in the description box, type:
{{subst:WP:WPSG/Image}}
You can also specify relevant information (recommended):
e.g {{subst:WP:WPSG/Image|from=SG1}} e.g. {{subst:WP:WPSG/Image|of=Daniel Jackson ascending}} e.g. {{subst:WP:WPSG/Image|in=Anubis (Stargate)}} e.g. {{subst:WP:WPSG/Image|source=http://www.foo.com Foo}}
The more information you add, the better the output will be, although no extra information is strictly necessary. Using this template also adds the image to the correct Stargate image category. -- Alfakim-- talk 21:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Tone has started an article on the next Stargate series at Stargate: The third series. I think that this article could use a better name, possibly Third Stargate Series. What do you all think? — Brother Flounder 03:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. -- Kbdank71 14:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
At present each article contains a trivia section, we need to mass these (and if possible - integrate) - see WP:AVTRIV, trivia is non-encyclopaedic (ref: Talk:Line_in_the_Sand_(Stargate_SG-1)#Stargate_SG-1_Episode_Style_Sheet, Talk:The_Road_Not_Taken_(Stargate_SG-1)) thanks/ Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 19:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC) A mass trivia page may read more like a fan guide than an encyclopedia. These sections should be considered 'notes'. Only relevant info unable to be presented in the body of the article should be listed. The link matthewfenton provided takes you to an excerpt from the stargate episode style guide pertaining to such note sections. Please refer to it when editing or contributing to a note section. thanks Mwhope 16:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Noticed no mention of stargate in this list so I added some refferences to I'm sure theres more I didn't think of.
Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 February 1#Template:Sgspoiler. -- Ned Scott 19:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
In a strange twist, {{ Sgspoiler}} was kept but {{ Spoiler-season}} was redirected to {{tl|spoiler}]. Sgspoiler is now independent of Spoiler-season and will still operate in the same way that it did before. -- Ned Scott 20:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
That's great news that it got kept! Stargate deserves it's own spoiler template.
I've replaced Sgspoiler on all articles now. On some it was replaced with {{ spoiler}}, and on others it was replaced with {{ spoiler-season}}. I've introduced a new paramater for {{ sgspoiler}} (FORCESHOW) that should satisfy those worried that it unnecessarily displays the show. -- GunnarRene 22:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
It was "no consensus", not "keep". I made those changes to reflect the compromise worked out in the discussion so that we won't lose the functionality if there's a re-nomination. -- GunnarRene 20:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
The only difference in appearance between sgspoiler and spoiler-season is that sgspoiler links to the episode section, while spoiler-season links only to the list of episodes article. Do we really want the Stargate spoiler notice to link to List of Stargate SG-1 episodes#Season 9 rather than List of Stargate SG-1 episodes? Isn't it possible that the section leads will spoil people unintentionally? What do you think? -- GunnarRene 20:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
These duplicate an episode, verbatim, all these links to "Stargate SG-1 Solutions" need to be removed. WP:EL#Restrictions on linking: "Linking to websites that display copyrighted works is acceptable as long as the website has licensed the work. Knowingly directing others to a site that violates copyright may be considered contributory infringement." thanks/ Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 19:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
There have been a lot of attempts recently to get rid of spoiler tags, both in general and in specific cases. I think we should try and meet the people making those attempts half-way by only using spoiler tags where actually necessary. One place we have them and don't need them is episode pages. I think it is obvious that the "Plot" section of an episode page is going to contain spoilers about that episode, so I propose we remove all spoiler tags from such places (unless they refer to spoilers of an episode that comes after the one the article is about). Any objections? -- Tango 20:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
After recently being shown that page I have come to the conclusion it desperately needs a rewrite to comply with Wikipedia Guidelines and Policies. (Notable it encourages spam, copyright violations, MoS violations, trivia and misc.) thanks/ Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 23:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The Road Not Taken (Stargate SG-1) - someone nominated as a copyvio. thanks/ Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 23:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
While looking around, I have found a lot of references to "Sgt. Davis" and "Technician", all played by Gary Jones. I think it would be good if all of these could have one standard "correct" name, which I believe to be Walter Harriman. Jacobpauldyer 11:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I've found the reference I was looking for. Episode 901, he introduces himself to Col. Mitchell as "Chief Master Sargent Walter Harriman". I think it's fair to assume he knows his own name. Jacobpauldyer 21:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that we need to have our own list of important Templates and Userboxes etc in one place. Now obviously, we already have a few, but I might suggest that the templates be revised. I know I've been quiet for a while, but that's because I have been extremely busy elsewhere. Alteran Ancient 13:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Just so you all know, I've set things up so that as soon as someone adds their name to the Participants list at the project (i.e. joins the project), they are presented with the following Welcome Page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Stargate/Welcome.
We should use this page to introduce new editors straightaway to the core principles of the project. If we can get our principles sorted, e.g. the episode style sheet, writing style, etc., then these can be summarised in the welcome message. -- Alfakim-- talk 15:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
71.142.240.224 09:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
would'nt it be 'the Alliance of Five Great Races' if we're a member now? i don't know though, they didn't change the name when a member of the alliance went extinct, so i guess it wouldn't changed when a new member joins? Idon'texist 18:13, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
oh. wait. if we're the fifth race, how we not in the Alliance. I'm confused. Idon'texist 18:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Humanity hasn't always been the 5th race - in the episode of that name the Asgard said we were well on the way to becoming the 5th race, in Unending, they said we were the 5th race. It's not really an alliance anymore, though. The Ancients have ascended and don't do much these days, the Asgard are gone, the Nox are isolationist and pacifist (although Earth should try and contact them again and see if they are more willing to be friends now we've advanced a bit more) and the Furlings... well, who knows? Humanity is more the heir of the alliance than a member of it. -- Tango 21:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
kay. i was just wondering. nevermind then. Idon'texist 00:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that the original lable the show gave should be the one used. In Episode 215 "The Fifth Race" an Asgard mentions exactly what Tango|Tango presents. therefore I say 'the Alliance of the Four Great Races.'
71.142.240.224
09:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC) edited 02:42, 18 May 2007 (PST)
Saw edits to the third series article by an IP addy saying a name had been chosen for it so went over to gateworld to confirm, and sure enough it had, so I went and moved the article over to that and also redirected Stargate universe to it as a common mis-capitalization.. Will add a little redirect here notice to the top of the page in a few minutes.. EnsRedShirt 08:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure many of you are aware but I thought I would mention the reason why myself and possibly others are not participating in the WikiProject. The U.S. has not aired this season yet, so we're quite a bit behind many of the posts going into the project. I also won't review any of the posts, articles, or participate in the project discussion because I don't want a spoiler. Anyway.. just thought I would mention it. Sorry.. hope we get on the same schedule again so I can join back in. Morphh (talk) 0:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
It is being discussed if Wikipedia should include spoiler warnings or not. Feel free to comment at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. -- Ned Scott 00:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Template:Sgspoiler has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Farix ( Talk) 22:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There's recently been a rash of templates created for minor characters, detailing every single episode that character has appeared in. These templates are then being put at the bottom of the episode page for each of those episodes. Is that type of thing really necessary? This information can all be found on the character's own page, without also being on every episode page. Also, where does one draw the line? Hathor gets a template, and she was only in 3 episodes. So does every single character in more than 1 episode get their own template at the bottom of every episode they were in? That would get extremely messy and ugly looking, I think. You can find the current templates here. (Oh and as a side note, if you are going to keep them they should probably translated into North American TV-lingo instead of European, since it's a North American show... ie: season, not series). -- Maelwys 15:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Some of you might be aware of WP:EPISODE, which is our guideline for dealing with articles about an individual episode from a show. Before it had the shortcut WP:EPISODE and the current title, Wikipedia:Television episodes, it was known as Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes [1]. Well, it still says pretty much the same thing as before, but some recent redirecting of episode articles that weren't seen as notable lead us to some new activity on the talk page of WP:EPISODE. We're now looking for input and comments to expanding the guideline at WT:EPISODE#Suggested expansion of guidelines. -- Ned Scott 04:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Template:Sokar Stories has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — ChoChoPK (球球PK) ( talk | contrib) 10:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys, what's new at the project? I've come across TfD for the XX stories templates. As far as I remember, a consensus was reached some time ago that only Apophis, Anubis, Ba'al and eventually Yu are the only system lords that can have own articles. The others are to be merged. Or was there another talk more recently? Brief me up, otherwise we should do the merging. -- Tone 19:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Voila, I did the basic merging. I also cut off the trivia section per new guidelines. The only problem is that the list has become quite big now. Shall we leave it as it is or is it better to split it in two lists, one for System Lords and one for the rest of them? -- Tone 21:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I have started the article on Flagisalis chem_tom 18:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I know this isn't really the right place for asking questions about the show, rather than our articles, but I'm going to do it anyway (the answer might be worth mentioning somewhere, so it's not entirely off-topic). In " Shroud", a little over half way through, O'Neill calls Landry "sir". By my understanding, they are both Major Generals, and in fact, I thought O'Neill was Landry's boss (although I'm not sure if that's been stated anywhere, it might just be fan speculation). Is this just a mistake by the writers, or am I missing something? -- Tango 20:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
The WikiProject Television episode coverage taskforce have recently been working on a review process for episode articles. There are a rash of articles about individual episodes which fail notability, and are unlikely to ever reach such requirements. Many contributors are unaware of the specific guidelines to assess notability in episode pages: Wikipedia:Television episodes. We have expanded these guidelines to make them more helpful and explanatory, and we invite you to read the guidelines, and make any comments on its talk page. After much discussion, we have created a proposed review process for dealing with problem articles. See: Wikipedia:Television article review process. We invite discussion of this process on its talk page. General comments about this whole process are welcome at the episode coverage taskforce talkpage. Thanks! Gwinva 10:13, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Template:SG-1 has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Maelwys 17:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Could we maybe get a database of pics that can be used on wikipedia for stargate. It would make articles a lot more interesting with pictures, and easier for the editors instead of having to hunt for free license pics -- Estrill5766 18:19, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to call the attention of members of this project to the recently revised guideline at WP:FICT, which now states that all sub-articles on fictional subjects must independently meet a new (stricter) notability ruling than what was in place prior to the new guideline. If enforced, the new guideline would likely result in the deletion and/or merging of hundreds of articles on fictional subjects, such as fictional characters, television episodes, fictional locations, etc. There is active discussion / disagreement related to this issue at Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction), and in the interests of ensuring the topic is fully discussed by interested editors, I would invite members of this project to participate in that discussion (whether you agree with the new guideline or not). Fairsing 22:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion going on at Talk:Stargate Atlantis regarding the Setting section. Some more opinions would be useful. -- Tango 15:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I have added a "project policies" section to the main page. Please add to it. It should include all the recommended reading on wikipedia policies relevant to us, and also any subpages where weve decided on policies for the project ourselves. I've already added a couple of the internal policies from memory of past discussions, but feel free to discuss them where you like. -- Alfakim-- talk 20:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
According to the notability discussion currently going on, a huge merging of the episode articles is going to happen if there are no improvements to the style. For a start, the plots should be written more in out-of universe style (not really hard), trivia sections should be deleted and details about production and reception are welcome. In prose, of course. Besides, after merging almost all Goa'uld articles into Goa'uld characters in Stargate, I intend to do the same for at least for the Tauri ones on a separate and all other to one that I can't find a good name for at the moment. -- Tone 14:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Note: Beginning with Season 4, all but 3 episodes have audio commentaries. Beginning with Season 5, TV Zone [2] devoted two out of its 7 specials per year to Stargate (~70 pages or more; with interviews, individual episode previews and reviews). Beginning with Season 6, about six episodes per season have specific DVD episode featurettes. Beginning with Season 8, an official Stargate Magazine [3] is/was published. Producer Joe Mallozzi blogs since Season 8. Some episodes may have received special media coverage, for examples for actors coming/leaving and episode landmarks (100th, 150th, 200th episode). Quite a few articles were nominated for awards, with a few wins.
Having said that, almost all Stargate ep articles are in a not-so-good state per content and style guidelines, and it is unlikely that they will be improved much because (1) there are just too many episodes, (2) gateworld.net is already doing a great job with them, (3) SG-1 fans have not been very active with bringing up ep articles to at least GA (not a accusation, just an observation), and (4) SG-1 is cancelled now, with fan devotion slowly going down. Below is a list of SG-1 episodes that may have notability without having their notablity established in the article. The articles that have the best chance to establish notability easily are bolded.
– sgeureka t•c 23:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Good job. There is not much additional work in bringing most of the articles in a state where they pass the notability criteria. But when info like above is added, it better is in prose, otherwise it looks like another trivia section. -- Tone 16:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
That looks excellent sgeureka, thank you for putting so much into that. — pd_THOR | =/\= | 14:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
In the Screenshots of Stargate SG-1 Category there are a lot of images that are screen cap from the television broadcast and have a network logo. Is it worthwhile for someone to go through this category and upload DVD screenshots in their place? Ank329 13:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Input requested at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Atlantis personnel in Stargate/2nd nom. -- Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 20:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Although there haven't been any major proposes for deletion of Stargate articles, shouldn't we start to transwiki the existing articles to [4] in case that someday someone plans to delete f.e. the episode articles. This would also give us the opportunity to recreate the individual character articles we had in former times. Diabound ( talk) 08:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
# | Title | Wikia link | Written by | Directed by | Original airdate (HBO) | Viewers |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | "Milfay" | Wikia:Carnivàle:Milfay | Daniel Knauf | Rodrigo Garcia | September 14, 2003 | 5.3 m.[Source] |
Milfay, Oklahoma Dustbowl, 1934. Ben Hawkins, a young farmer and chain gang fugitive, suffers strange dreams about a : trench war and a tattooed man stalking in a cornfield. When Ben buries his mother who had just died from dust pneumonia, a traveling carnival arrives. Ben's house is about to be demolished, and the police are nearing, so the carnival picks him up and provides him shelter. Lodz, the carnival's mentalist, is suspicious of Ben's dreams. Before the carnival leaves to its next location, Ben puts his hands on a lame girl's legs and heals her, laying the surrounding field to waste. Samson, the carnival's co-manager, relays Management's comment about Ben being expected to Jonesy, the carnival's Ferris wheel operator who suffers from a crippling knee injury. • Mintern, California. The small town preacher Brother Justin Crowe makes an Okie church attendee spew coins. He also has the same dreams as Ben, and in a particular vision visits a local Chinese establishment named Chin's when it begins to rain blood. Production notes This episode marks the first appearance of the Tattooed Man in Carnivàle. |
The more I think about it, the more I think that transwiki'ing is the easiest and quickest solution for the episodes. I started a season page in my userspace for SG-1, but that was so much work that I gave up after 4 episodes. Instead, I've done the following things.
I replaced the table in List of Stargate SG-1 episodes for Season 1 with {{ Episode list}}. The other seasons will follow. The major changes are that I merged the name of the writer, the director, an alternate episode number (so that there will be 1->214 and 101->1020 in the end) from the episode articles, and added a wikia link. What is left to do is
As a test, I transwikied The Enemy Within (Stargate SG-1) to Wikia:Stargate:The Enemy Within (the full link looks like http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/The_Enemy_Within ) and Emancipation (Stargate SG-1) to Wikia:Stargate:Emancipation. With some preparation (completed now, no-one else has to do it again), this was surprisingly quick. The procedure is as follows:
{{
wikipedia|[Wikipedia article name]}}
(e.g. {{
wikipedia|Hathor (Stargate SG-1)}}
) to the bottom of the wikia article. This will leave the
GFDL license intact.So, and what we have to do then is decide which episode we are going to keep as articles on wikipedia. I could set up a non-binding poll soon. Generally speaking, no more than five to eight episodes per season should remain on wikipedia, giving preferance to those article winning (or being nominated for) awards, fan favorites, and those articles you would personally improve (because it is your favorite). We can have another poll later to decide if we can lose a few more episode articles that don't establish notability, but this will be for a different time. – sgeureka t•c 00:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Most of the discussion here doesnt seem to consider this:
"All articles on Wikipedia must meet notability guidelines, which state that:
A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject."
"Reliable sources
Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."
I was afraid that means all episodes have to go, but Zero Hour (Stargate SG-1) is indeed good work and may suffice. -- Echosmoke ( talk) 00:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh alright she acted as if they were long lost friends but i understand now. i was seeing other goofs so i thought i would add as it can be funny to notice but stargate is still #1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.117.112 ( talk) 06:13, 21 December 2007 (UTC)