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I'm bringing over to wikiproject ships the text I just added to Image talk:IIH.png. My opinion is both of these things should be addressed.
I've just been making a bulleted list but then it occurred to me to ask here and see if anyone has done this on other ship articles and has a nice table, etc.? See CSS Jamestown - plange 18:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
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I thought it might be a good idea to start a new subject heading to list merges/renames/deletions. These are all related to the above proposal for reorganizing Ships by country. If you support the proposal, please vote on all of these individually. If you do not support the proposal and vote against these, please help to come up with a better proposal for the reorganization! Unconstructive criticism is unhelpful and just helps maintain the mess that we have now.
Added Friday, July 14, 2006:
Added Monday, July 17, 2006:
A couple of people have now voted "oppose" to merges and renames related to fixing Category:Ships by country. I'd like to start up some discussion to figure out why. I hope you guys who voted oppose will join in.
GraemeLeggett said the following:
Look at Category:Royal Navy battlecruisers, which contains four class categories, one era category, five ship articles, and six ship class articles. It is a complete mess of people throwing random stuff in there; it does not "work well." There is no logical scheme applied to it at all.
So what do you oppose about the proposal? Do you oppose what should go in them (Class cats, eras and ship articles, as seen at Category:Battlecruisers of the United Kingdom)? If so, what should be placed in the category instead?
Or do you oppose naming categories by country instead of by navy? There's plenty of room for debate here, but there are serious problems to be solved in either case. Please give a proposal for how Category:Ships by country should be structured. My proposal is as follows:
TomTheHand 18:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Discussions on Talk:Royal Navy#Categories and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/British military history task force#Categories indicates that the problem is with the rename, not the categorization proposal. Here are my issues with "Royal Navy":
I acknowledge that there is an issue with historical accuracy with the "United Kingdom" categories before 1800. However, I don't believe that issue outweighs all of the disadvantages of categorizing by navy.
We rarely use the official name of a navy. For example, the Russian Navy's official name translates to Military Maritime Fleet. The navy of Italy is called Marina Militare, or Military Navy. The French Navy is the Marine Nationale, or National Navy. I doubt you'd want to use these names, and I don't see why the UK's navy is an exception to the rule. TomTheHand 19:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
My take on this (and please correct me, if I get it wrong -- My connection is more on the merchant navy side of things) is that of nationality -- AFAIK, the Royal Navy is the British navy, and not that of the United Kingdom (although it's duties include protection of Northern Ireland (so the rest of the UK), but also the Isle of Man (not in the UK, but part of the British Isles), the Channel Islands, the Falklands, etc. This is asside from it's other duties, such as at present off Beiruit.
I think my issue stems from there being no concept of the UK having ownership -- partly because the UK refers to two nations -- Great Britain and Northern Irleand, so I instinctively think of things being British (of Great Britain) or Irish (of Ireland, Northern or Southern)
As a side issue, Google seems to agree that the Royal Navy is the British one. (the 15th or so result being the "Royal Canadian Navy" - ok, so that's still the same monarch) Looking at other monarchs, the closest being " The Royal Norwegian Navy" Ratarsed 20:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I (TomTheHand) had the following discussion with Jooler on my talk page and wanted to move it here for further discussion:
There is nothing wrong with the current categorisation of Royal Navy ships. The Royal Navy covers ships for England, the Kingdom of Great Britain, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and other system would lead to anachronistic declarations. Jooler 21:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Could we list proposals for Ships by country below and discuss our support of them? Jooler had a very reasonable proposal for naming the categories: base it on the navy's article name. If you have a proposal, please list it.
What about doing both in parallel? That way you could look up by "Canada" if you don't know that their navy was the Royal Canadian Navy until 1968, and the Canadian Forces Maritime Command after that. You could look up by "Germany" if you weren't sure which navy name to look up. It wouldn't require any renaming, and would make things easy to find both for naval history buffs and for the "ignorant masses." TomTheHand 13:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
But how many categories would ship articles have? Ship by country, ship by navy, ship by era, ship by type, etc... aren't those too many. -- Victor12 14:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Alright, each side seems to have significant support and significant opposition. I seriously don't see us reaching a single solution. Above, I suggested that we do both, and each ship should have a navy cat and a country cat. That proposal seems to have some support from both sides. Does it have enough to become our plan? Please post your support or opposition to implementing both at the same time.
Also, if we do decide we should do both, we should come up with a consistent plan for naming navy categories. Native names are probably silly, even if they're transliterated. Translated native names are probably a bad plan as well, because many countries simply call their navy the "Royal Navy" or "National Navy." Jooler suggested naming categories after the article, which I think is alright. CP/M's point about neutrality is well taken, but I think using the article names is as neutral as we can come while still remaining useful, and if there's a neutrality issue about having the article about the Marine Nationale located at French Navy then the issue can be resolved there and the solution can propagate down to the categories.
As a minor side issue, we should also name the navy categories consistently, either in the "Royal Navy destroyers" format or the "Destroyers of the Royal Navy" format. There seems to be consistency within nations but not across nations. I realize most people probably don't have a strong preference, but it's going to be necessary to perform category renames, which is going to require votes. If you're apathetic, it would be appreciated if you'd vote for whatever consensus is; if you're violently opposed to one format or the other, please speak now instead of after the renames are proposed. TomTheHand 13:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
A ship category disjucture earlier today generated this following linked query, and the presence now of effective interwiki linking as can be seen in those cited links: Problem of 3 BB Categories So while I'm not going to weigh in directly on such a heartfelt discussion, but would like to point out that what you do should take into account the international effects (and what you affect) with respect to the commons and via the commons all the various language sister projects which are in the process of being tied more much closely using interwiki cross-category links. (Finding those neat pictures will eventually get much easier, and extra help is always needed, perhaps especially on the commons!)
Then again, I should point out that certain commonly used search tools on the commons default to a mere three categories of depth in searching for an intersection of two criteria specified as category names... so minimizing tree depth is a really good thing idea. Also note, on the commons, an image of a particular battlecruiser is most likely to not only be categorized under it's specific daughter category, but also in the higher tree categories as well. Interlinking and being able to find things easily is more important than nitpicks about absolutely correct minimal categorization.
I believe it would be helpful for you all to know some of the other tools that have come out of the effort which began in categories containing maps. Take a peek at {{ w2}}, {{ w2c}}, {{ Cat see also}}, {{ Category redirect2}} for example, and {{ Commonscat4}} and template:WikiPcat for a usage glimpse of the interwiki templates (All are listed in Category:Wikipedia navigation templates, which is a horrible name, but suits until we finalize all the names in the system, including templates. See: User Talk:Fabartus and especially here for ongoing discussions towards making the interwiki linking a meta-project.)
If some of you were to add the relevant interwiki templates when you rework these categories, it would be much appreciated. More to the point, I'd suggest tying your learned discussion to take into account the commons heirarchy now, while making your decisions. These interwiki's can aid you in getting a picture of both trees. Note it is far easier to 'delete' a commons category than the Cfd procedure here on en.wp, so you all might take some time to tag and get a feel for the lay of the land while resolving the top-down heirarchy you are discussing herein. When in doubt as to whether 'things are equalized', use a '1' suffixed template, which tags with a slightly different category signifying more work is needed to vett the new structure until it can be said to be 'equalized'.
(We're currently working on cutting the list of templates down by adding if-then-else 'smarts' to do more, and there are enough trial variations and usage built in to give guidance some guidance in advance of a formal guideline. See both sister's
Category:F class submarines and both their two parents for few optional Main Article wrinkles using brief calls
Like: {{WikiPcat1|{{PAGENAME}}|F class submarine}}br /> and... {{Commonscat1Ra|F class submarine}} (Note the offset order of the Main article link... the templates default to a main article name matching the category name, and we'll probably adjust that sort of thing to be consistant.)
Gotta run. Good luck to all. // Fra nkB 17:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to begin implementing the compromise proposal, adding both a country tag and a navy tag, starting tomorrow unless someone objects here before then. When I have to create country categories, I will name them in the (ship type) of (country) format, like "Destroyers of Germany". When I have to create navy categories, I will name them based on the name of our article for the navy. I will name them in the (ship type) of (navy) format, like "Destroyers of the Kriegsmarine", because I feel it reads best and fits well with the existing categories like (era name) (ship type) of (country). If anyone has any objections, please post here and I won't do anything until we reach a consensus. Again, if nobody has any objections, I will begin tomorrow. TomTheHand 17:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a serious lack of consistancy throughout the site on the use of hyphen when it comes to ship classes. I'm seeing, for example, "Cleveland-class" as well as "Cleveland class"...both with and without the hyphen. Has there been a policy set which provides the proper format? It would be nice to introduce some level of normalcy in this situation (both for real world vessels as well as fictional and sci-fi ships). -- Huntster T • @ • C 13:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I have discussed the hyphen issue a lot on Wikipedia, it is not just the navy that is confused. Mercedes uses a hyphen (S-Class) officially but BMW does not (3 Series). People get confused because they think of 'spelling rules' rather than 'purpose'. Hyphens are tools to resolve ambiguity (compare "black-cab drivers come under attack" with "black cab-drivers come under attack").
Quotes from styleguides in
User_talk:Bobblewik/style#Hyphens_and_dashes:
Ship class names should not have a hyphen unless they are part of ambiguous text. bobblewik 10:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a question I have also left on Template talk:UK-mil-ship-stub, with regards to the phrasing of the UK-mil-ship-stub template. Currently, it reads "military ship", my feeling is that it should read "naval ship"; military being "Of or relating to land forces." I know the Army run a few vessels, but as this stub is used almost exclusively with regards to naval vessels, I feel that this is somewhat incorrect. Emoscopes Talk 15:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering what the protocol is on Pennant numbers on Wikipedia, if any. The pennant number article uses the simplest version, with no full stop/period between the Flag Superior and the Number. This seems to be the convention on many websites and in print, as well as being what appeared on the hulls of the warships themselves. By contrast, there are numerous articles on Wikipedia which cite the pennant number with the afore mentioned full stop/period.
If there isn't already an official convention on the matter, I propose that one be put in place.
- Harlsbottom 00:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Harlsbottom 12:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
|- |Pennant: |number here
I am in the midst of a project to document all the White Star Line ships, and have found an area of inconsistency that I'd like to overcome, and I would like to solicit interested folks' opinions. Article names for British liners are sometimes preceded with an "RMS" rather than an "SS". According to the article Royal Mail Ship as well as other non-wiki info I can find, RMS is really only a temporary designation for when mail is actually being carried onboard (kind of like Air Force One is really only that when the President is onboard). Any other time, the ship should properly be referred to as "SS". It seems that RMS usage has taken on the "popular" conception that it is a standard reference to a British ship (a misconception, no doubt, aided by the infamy of the RMS Titanic, since she was under that designation when she went down). Though it seems that the preference at Wikipedia is to use the title which would be most "commonly" used by the public (a problem that is easily overcome by redirect pages), I am concerned as a historian that by doing so we are giving false legitimacy to a misconception. Thus, except for special situations like Titanic, I propose that "SS" be used as the standard Wikipedia format, and I'd like to see if there's a consensus amongst the project folks. Concur? Disconcur? Akradecki 03:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Someone please cleanup this article, especially the infobox.
It is financed by Hellenic Navy (Greece) so the navy infobox apply. However, since it is a trireme, it has no powerplant and armour to speak of. SYSS Mouse 03:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
In a phrase like "8 inch gun", is it preferable to have a dash or a space between 8 and inch? I favor spaces and I think standardization is a good idea but I wanted to discuss it here. The Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) states that with units of measurement, a space should be used (preferably non-breaking). Should that be applied to our gun calibers as well? TomTheHand 18:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Has there been a consensus on using feminine pronouns in the articles to refer to the ship? I reverted an "it"ification of the USS Arizona (BB-39) article last night. I listed the rv as for no consensus cited. Also the anonymous editor changed broke to raised for an admirals flag, which strikes me as just dumbing down.
Some reasons to keep the feminine:
The opposing view seems to be centered on that any use of the feminine pronoun is somehow harmful. Maybe I'm ingorant of some specific and uniformly opressive connotation of calling a ship a she. But like the word "ignorant" I'm not willing to give it up because it can be used in a derogatory manner. Everything can be used in a derogatory fashion.
Observations of women who've "gone down to the sea in ships" would be particulary welcome. I'll be pinging a few I know including a CPO and an M.D.-- J Clear 13:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Another point in favor, from the American Heritage Dictionary: "2. Used in place of it to refer to certain inanimate things, such as ships and nations, traditionally perceived as female: “The sea is mother-death and she is a mighty female” (Anne Sexton)."-- J Clear 23:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody have an authority to cite *against* feminine pronouns? The complainers seem to be amateurs looking for sexism in every phrase, not actual real-life feminists. (Seems stylish to still use masculine pronouns for Russian though - WP doesn't *have* to be the blandest text ever written...) Stan 05:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Consistency. Formally, in normal English, as well as in probably all other languages, ships are inanimate and inanimate objects are "it". Feminine is a long tradition in navies, but, after all, we don't insert all of the naval jargon in articles, so "it" is correct as well. However, when the article is related to a certain country, it's recommended to use corresponding dialect, so I think we could establish the following:
Any thoughts or objections? This generally reflects the current use both in Wikipedia and in other sources. CP/M comm | Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 09:37, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
We can't legislate everything: some things ought to be left to the taste and discretion of editors. Gdr 15:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:CFD on United Staes class aircraft carrier category Category:United States class aircraft carriers, that contains the sole example, USS United States (CVA-58).
USS US had just her keel laid, and the fzip, scrapped, no other planned ship made it to a keel, or material collection, nothing else was named... as far as I can tell. Why does this need a category? There will never be another article about a US class carrier.
70.51.8.235 05:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
hazegray.org and navsource.org seem to have gone AWOL. No DNS resolution. Near as I can tell I can't reach their DNS name servers (same name servers for both). Nor can I reach them by IP (from another ISPs cache). Anybody know what's going on?-- J Clear 01:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
HMS Enterprize (1709) and HMS Enterprize (1743)? Can someone tell me when and why they were deleted or moved, without redirecting them? Pedant 03:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick heads up that I have proposed a merger of the lists List of aircraft carriers of the Royal Navy and List of escort carriers of the Royal Navy. Emoscopes Talk 13:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
In the discussion above, Further discussion on categorization of Category:Ships by country, we worked out a compromise where ships would be categorized both by country and by navy. I said that I would begin classifying articles I touch in the future in that way, and I'd be naming new categories in the format (ship type) of (navy) (like Category:Battleships of the United States Navy). This seems to be most consistent with the way Ships by country and Ships by era are named, and it also seems to be consistent with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories), though the naming conventions only address ships by country, not ships by navy.
However, I'm beginning to have second thoughts about the whole thing, and I'm wondering if these categories should be named in the (navy) (ship type) format instead (like Category:Royal Navy battleships). Many categories are already named that way, it's compact, and it looks good. Either way, a ton of renaming will need to occur. What do you guys think? I think I've presented both sides and I'm having real difficulty choosing between the two. We'll need a real consensus on this one, because we'll have to propose renames on WP:CFD. TomTheHand 18:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, everyone, for responding! I hope more people come by and weigh in. At the moment, J Clear, Kirill Lokshin, and Lou Sander seem to favor (ship type) of (navy), while CP/M and Stan favor (navy) (ship type). This kind of division is rough, because it'll be difficult to get any renames through at CFD. Perhaps a clear consensus will emerge in coming hours/days.
I value consistency of naming far more than any other concern, and so I would vote for any blanket rename that establishes consistency. Consistency doesn't just improve readability. It also allows greater use of templates to categorize, which makes category maintenance much, much easier. Does anyone else feel the same way? Alternatively, is anyone vehemently opposed to either naming scheme? TomTheHand 18:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to give this discussion another little prod. Can we come up with a compromise? Would people be willing to vote for either side as long as consistency is achieved, or are some people horrified by one arrangement or the other? TomTheHand 17:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I realise I am late to the party :) If one more voicr would help here it is. If positions are entrenched maybe a vote is in order. My view is that we should list by country to get a consistent solution that will fit more situations. Inge 19:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys, sorry, I've been out of town the whole weekend. Glad to see all the discussion. I originally started this thread to talk about the naming format of navy categories, but it's turned into a discussion of whether we should categorize by country or navy in general. I'll weigh in on that issue.
I feel very strongly that we must categorize by country, though I am not opposed to listing by navy in addition. I've listed my reasoning above; I'll repeat it on request but leave it out right now for brevity.
A month or two ago, I tried to drum up consensus for renaming navy categories and merging them into country categories. It looked like there was consensus here, but when I proposed merges and renames on
WP:CFD they were shot down hard. There is significant opposition to the merging of navy categories into country categories, especially from Royal Navy fans. The compromise that we worked out was to list both, which does have some use: it's silly for the US / USN, but useful for Germany, with its many navy names.
I will not propose a new round of renames on CFD, and I will continue to categorize ships by both country and navy according to the previous consensus on the subject. However, if someone else proposes them, I will vote in support of eliminating (renaming/merging/deleting) navy cats in favor of country cats. I will oppose attempts to eliminate country cats in favor of navy cats. If someone does propose the renames, please post links to the CFD on this page.
If a new consensus emerges for the elimination of navy categories and merging with country categories, I will obviously stop categorizing by navy, and I'll be happier for it.
TomTheHand
12:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
There's a discussion of this subject HERE. I'd appreciate anybody's review and comment. Lou Sander 14:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been building a database of ships lately, and when tabulating shipbuilders with the aid of Wikipedia I've come across "irregularities" which don't help accuracy;
For example, for a vessel built at the Bethlehem Shipbuilding Corporation in Quincy, MA, I have seen "Fore River Ship Building Corporation" or "Bethlehem Shipbuilding Corporation, Squantum, MA". For a vessel built in 1919 "Fore River..." wouldn't apply due to the yard having been sold under that name in 1913, and the difference between Squantum and Quincy is no doubt a matter of opinion.
What I'm asking is whether it is worth drawing up a list of shipbuilders specifying what names were used at a time a vessel was built, with redirect links to most recent name. I'd like to see not necessarily a greater consistency (as in some cases names changed often) but I believe that there will be a large number of shipbuilders which could be made more consistent. Comment welcome. -- Harlsbottom 01:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I've come across this exact problem for British naval ships, that is the constant changing of yard names, mergers etc. I always try to correct the yard to the name at the time the ship was built, although there isn't always a separate page so I often end up directing the wikilink to the most appropriate page. Emoscopes Talk 07:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Emoscopes Talk 12:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I've started a little page here just to test a layout and to collate some ideas. I intend to go name by name (discounting unnecessary variants). Any contributions/modifications in the interim are highly desirable. BTW, I do agree with the manner in which you mention the name of the builder, Emoscopes. -- Harlsbottom 14:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the Fore River shipyard and the Squantum shipyard were different facilities in Quincy, though both were owned by Bethlehem. [2] The Squantum "Victory Yard" was only in existence from 1917 to 1919, building 35 destroyers. —wwoods 16:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Please include German shipyards: there's info [ here]. Also please add the marine warfare task force tag. Good hunting! The proposed layout looks a good first cut - perhaps add any specialisms and links to specific articles. Folks at 137 11:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there a banner for this wikiproject? 24.126.199.129 08:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I just created a very modest stub at 3"/50 caliber gun. I couldn't find an existing article on it, and I've seen it on a lot of WWII vintage ship articles with no link. Anyway now it's there, so as you go back to improve you favorite ship articles, bear it in mind. And of course being a stub that article could use attention itself as I'm about done for now.-- J Clear 02:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys, I've compiled a list of World War II British naval radar sets at, oddly enough,
List of World War II British naval radar. I've arranged the page so you can pipe links from articles into the relevant sub-section using an anchor (E.g. to link to Type 279, [[List of World War II British naval radar#Type279|Type 279]]). I chose the page name carefully after much checking, as it fits in with the general scheme of things in the electronic warfare articles.
Emoscopes
Talk
11:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It's customary to add the appropriate national or naval flag to various articles, eg ships. What's best: the current version or one appropriate to the ship's historic period? For example: in WWII, Australian and Canadian warships flew the "white ensign" used by the RN. Their own ensigns came into use in the 1960s - so which is best to use? Other affected nations include Italy, Germany, USA (two more stars so no big deal!). Changes have been made to articles to show current flags (eg, HMS Nabob (D77)), so an agreed convention would help. There also seems no set rule about whether to use ensigns (Royal Navy - white ensign; Dutch Navy - naval jack (a nice distinctive one)), other than one that is distinctively naval. Folks at 137 08:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Iv'e been looking round this website ( http://www.navyphotos.co.uk/ ) and it has come to my attention that some of the photos here are supplied by external sources and also appear in many books I have. I would be careful about the exact copyright status of these images as they may just be scans out of books. Emoscopes Talk 17:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I was just looking through the RN ships of the line category, and there are a couple of entries labelled as 'French ship xxxxxx'. These were ships that served in the Royal Navy, but were either captured from the French Navy, or captured from the Royal Navy by the French. Seeing as this is a category for RN ships, would it not make more sense for the ships to be listed there under their names in the RN? I'll use the example of the Swiftsure - this was a ship built for the RN, and launched as HMS Swiftsure, serving in the RN for 13 years before being captured by the French, and serving with the French navy for just 4 years, retaining the name Swiftsure. When recaptured she was renamed by the RN. I understand why perhaps it is entered as a French ship, thanks to her participation at Trafalgar under the French flag, but as she was also a British ship under the name for far longer, it makes sense to me that she has a page HMS Swiftsure (1787), which can perhaps redirect to the current version? I'm not sure if redirect pages can have categories though... any thoughts? Martocticvs 21:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been working on a proposal for the WikiProject's ship categorization policy. Please check it out: User:TomTheHand/WP:SHIPS categorization proposal. It reflects the consensus achieved over the past few months and puts it all in one place. If we can generally agree that it's good, I'd suggest that we create a new page under WP:SHIPS and link from the main page to it, since it's a little bit long to place on our main page. TomTheHand 20:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
As a few of us seem to be opposed to categorizing by both country and navy, what if I removed the "by navy" guidance from the proposal and stopped categorizing that way? I won't try to remove existing navy categories or merge them into country cats, but I'll stop categorizing that way, since it seems silly for me to do it when I don't like it. People who like the navy cats can use them if they want. Would that be a good idea, for the sake of cleaner, more straightforward categorization, or is it a childish way to get what I want? TomTheHand 13:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've been bold and placed the proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ships/Categorization, then linked from the main WP:SHIPS page. The old categorization section was pretty out of date, so I believe this one is an improvement, but if changes need to be made to it, let's make them! TomTheHand 18:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm about to go through Royal Navy sloops, and I shall test out your instructions listed above because the current situation is an utter shamble of dead ends, orphaned categories and uncategorised pages. Emoscopes Talk 00:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Recently there has been an attempt at metrification of the names of guns used in naval artillery. It was being dicussed over at User talk:Bobblewik#Move of 16"/50 (copied below):
I'm not sure that I agree with your move of 16"/50. The article was placed there because the official designation of the gun is the 16"/50 Mark 7; the move places it at an artificial construct of a name. Of course metric measurements should be given in the article, but the article title should be the gun's proper name, not a description of it. 16"/50 Mark 7 naval gun might work better, or a name which works the nationality in: United States 16"/50 Mark 7 naval gun, perhaps? Another example of an article named after the weapon's proper name is 40 cm/45 Type 94. Graeme Leggett noted that the title should probably include nationality and "naval gun", and I agree, but I believe using the gun's official name is important. If we applied your scheme, we'd have 460 mm (18.1 inch)/45 caliber Type 94 naval gun, which is a completely artificial construct that does not reflect the gun's actual name. TomTheHand 14:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems I managed to start an almost identical discussion on a different project, here.
This was my thoughts; I was interested in starting some articles on British naval guns, so took a quick inventory of what is already out there. So far we have;
Obviously, there seems to be no systematic method for naming articles. The official designation of these guns is;
I would like to propose some agreed method to name the articles. There is already a fairly systematic naming system for (British) Army guns, e.g Ordnance QF 2 pounder and Ordnance QF 6 pounder, this simply follows the official designation (but drops the gun weight in hundredweights). The Royal Navy designation system is unique as far as I know, I therefore do not think that titles need disambiguated with the word "British". I also think including the mark is over-specific, as apart from the 15 inch and 16 inch guns, most guns went through a large number of marks. For this reason, and the fact that the Royal Navy does not include it in the official designation, I also do not think the calibre should be included; there are, for instance, L/55 and L/45 guns on the page 4.5 inch (114 mm) gun, which should we use? I personally amn't keen either on including millimetres in the title. These guns were never reported with a metric equivalent, or known by such (the sole exception being the foreign Oerlikon 20 mm (QF 20 mm) and Bofors 40 mm (QF 40 mm)). We do not have a page [[Oerlikon 20 mm (0.79 inch) cannon]], likewise we do not include millimetre and inches in the title of the 2 pounder gun article. It also just makes the title that bit more complicated than it really needs to be.
My preferred choice for a titling system would therefore be [[designation, calibre in inches / shell weight in pounds, naval gun]], e.g. [[BL 15 inch naval gun]]. The only shortcoming I can see with this system is where we have a case where a modern, unrelated weapon, is added into a page for historic guns due to a shared calibre - this is the case with the 4.5 inch (114 mm) gun page. However it would be my intention to move this to a page of it's own anyway. Emoscopes Talk 01:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
You're right that the examples you mention are poorly titled: the first three are horribly over-engineered, and the fourth overdoes the ambiguity. ("2-pounder" made me think of the tank gun, at least.) While a certain degree of horizontal consistency is a good thing, over-doing it could lead to titles that are neither official, and more to the point, aren't common names. I'd be highly inclined to go with the latter principle, to a reasonable degree "averaged" over generally similarly named classes, and taking precision into account. Alai 14:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Will anyone have a problem with me renaming the following?
I'll run it through a suggested move before hand regardless, just wanted to see if this general format is acceptable. Emoscopes Talk
Suggest articles should be named for the name of the gun in the era it was used. Otherwise we're going to get in to problems with the british 2 pounder and 44 lb. carronades. My feeling is that metrification doesn't apply to names. I'm not going to Amazon and look up The Longest Yard (91.44 cm). Metric values should appear early in the introduction on the gun article. Suggest using format 5"/38 caliber (127 mm x 4.8 m) in other articles.-- J Clear 01:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
We also need to establish a standard for " vs. inch in naval gun articles. If there is a strong consensus here that " is the way the guns were named historically, I think at least for the purposes of naming them, we should use that way. I don't have an issue with spelling inch out in the internals of the article using general MoS. But we do need to come up with a consensus to dscourage arbitrary moves.-- J Clear 02:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
As a further argument toward using the historical name, I don't see anyone renaming Royal Mile anytime soon.-- J Clear 02:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
From the views expressed above, I would propose that we have some sort of a concensus on the following issues;
A few examples for illustration;
your thoughts? Emoscopes Talk 16:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
These aren't necessarily easy to find. I found one source HERE, though. Note the inclusion of the word "caliber," which I recall from long ago was typical. the reference uses "inch" instead of the double quote, but I have a feeling that form wasn't universal. I'm going to keep looking for some sort of "official" reference. Lou Sander 13:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Without wishing to re-ignite a settled debate, has a convention for gun naming been agreed? Is it recorded somewhere? Does any Wiki list reflect this, yet? I'd like to link warship articles to the guns they use and I need some guidance. Folks at 137 11:07, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, we've discussed this issue several times before but never taken action. I've always said "I'll do it later." Well, later is now!
The Category:Modern ships structure is used to categorize ships that are in service right now. I think it's a good, useful structure, but many times we've discussed how "Modern ships" isn't really the best title. It's very vague. To some it implies that the ships are up-to-date and high-tech, which may or may not be the case. To others it implies that the ships are of the 20th century ("modern era"), which also may or may not be the case. We need a new name that really means "ships that are in service right now." "Contemporary" has been suggested in the past, and I think that's a good one, but it has that relative-ness that I don't like. Contemporary with what? I guess when it's not specified one should assume right now, but I'd be more comfortable with a term that specifically means "right now." My best ideas are "Currently serving ships" and "Present-day ships." If we can come up with some kind of consensus I'll propose the big move over on CFD.
There's another issue as well. We have a "Cold War ships" cat and a "Modern ships" cat, but nothing to cover the period between the end of the Cold War and now. If a ship decommissioned in 2003, that's over a decade of post-Cold War service, but she doesn't belong in a "currently serving ships" category. Anyone have a good name for a category to cover the period between the end of the Cold War and today? "Post Cold War" is the best I can come up with. I would probably say that the "Post Cold War" category should only contain ships that left service since 1991, or it'll end up too redundant to "Modern ships".
Again, I apologize for bringing this up for the nth time, but I'll really propose the renames this time once we work this out. TomTheHand 18:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to make the units in the infobox more consistent.
If anyone wants to help, feel free to use my monobook tool User:Bobblewik/monobook.js/general.js. Let me know if you would like help getting it to work. bobblewik 23:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems likely that we won't have operational histories of SSBN any time soon. And there seems to be a mish-mash of ways of dealing with the gap on SSBN articles, from ignoring it to visible remarks in the article like insert 4 years of history here. Seems worth constructing a template to explain the large history gaps in the articles. Something like {{missing-boomer-hist}}, which could read The operational history of submarine nuclear deterrent patrols has not been released by the US Navy.
Is it worth making the tag more generic or another tag to account for ships with large histoy gaps after the end of their DANFS data? Frequently there will be history up to the end of the DANFS data and then some decomissioning date from the NVR. Probably a different template since this is also common. Like {{danfs-gap-stub}}, The operational history of this ship is missing after the last DANFS update, (usual help wikipedia stub line here).
Do both cases represents a special sort of {{ sect-stub}}? The former might not fall into the "stub" concept as the data simply isn't available. The latter probably should be considered a stub. -- J Clear 15:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Being lazy, typing [[USS Foobar (IX-13)|USS ''Foobar'' (IX-13)]] to link to a ship always struck me as twice the work I needed to be doing. So I did something about it and created {{ USS}}. Now you can type {{USS | Foobar | IX-13}} (e.g. USS Iowa (BB-61)). Omit the second parameter to link to ship indexes (e.g USS Iowa) or such unique vessels as USS Constitution. I finally got fed up while editing List of Victory ships, so you can see some real examples there. It should be trivial to copy it for other ship prefixes (e.g. HMS), but I'd like others to take a look at and use it first. If useful, I'll write it up on the project page. -- J Clear 22:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Joshbaumgartner has proposed a rename of the Ships by navy categories to achieve consistency. Please use the following link to weigh in on what format should be used ((Navy name) ships or Ships of the (navy name)):
Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 25#Ships by Navy categories
As you'll see, I prefer using Ships of (navy name), but will change my vote near the end of the discussion period if there's a majority in favor of (navy name) ships but a lack of clear consensus. To me, consistency is more valuable than adoption of my preferred scheme; I hope some other folks will feel the same way. TomTheHand 16:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I know I promised I'd do this last week, but the size of the project intimidated me. I've finally done it. Please go here and vote:
Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 27#Modern_ships
Everyone's participation would be appreciated! It'll only take a moment. TomTheHand 18:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Several weeks ago there was some discussion here or in a related place about compiling a list of shipyards. Can anybody help me find it? Lou Sander 15:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
We could really use additional versions of Image:US Naval Jack.svg. As you can see, the naval jack is the star portion of the US flag. The jack changes when the number of stars change. If we have a member who can manipulate SVG images, could he or she create different naval jacks based on the flags here?
We already have Image:US Naval Jack 34 stars.svg, Image:US Naval Jack 35 stars.svg, and Image:US Naval Jack 36 stars.svg, which cover us for the Civil War and set out a naming scheme for future flags.
The one we desperately need is a 48 star jack. The US flag had 48 stars from 1912 to 1960. That means all of our naval jacks for American ships of both world wars are wrong. If nothing else, we need that one. TomTheHand 15:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I think we need to break the redirect at US Navy jack and have an article there like the US Flag one that diagrams the changes over the years. Obviously the original and present jacks would link to First Navy Jack. Or perhaps FNJ is short enough to be merged in the process. -- J Clear 22:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I had a feeling this would come up, I noted USS Alliance (1877) is listed for cleanup above. Obviously the 50 star Jack is wrong, but what Jack to give it? Do we use the jack at time of decomissioning, or what the ship used during its most notable period or action. -- J Clear 12:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been using the jack at the time of decommissioning, since it's at least more correct than using the 50 star jack all the time. I did make a mistake with Oriskany, which you pointed out; thanks for noticing! Trying to do it by most notable period/action makes sense, but it's so subjective. I'd rather use a technique that I can do quickly, looking at decommission dates, and if someone wants to change it later that's cool with me. TomTheHand 18:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Is there a convention for the use of any Navy's jacks in Wiki? I think they were limited to use while in port. As a non-US person, I've found the use of the USN jack confusing as it soesn't immediately indicate nationality to me (and perhaps to others). In most cases, we have used ensigns, eg, the Royal Navy's White Ensign or the US ensign, but jacks are used to clarify nationality, eg, Royal Canadian Navy (which otherwise used the White Ensign) and Royal Netherlands Navy (there's a plethora of flags with horizontal bands). Another point, if the USN jack is used, it should have a border, otherwise it's unsatisfactory against a dark blue background. Folks at 137 07:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Also can we list the preferred flags as a text table with the image link text to cut and paste, w/o actually displaying the image? The present display of all the flag images should go a list page somewhere as a reference as scrolling through it is a pain, especially with two of the larger navies near the bottom. Or perhaps break it down by continent.-- J Clear 23:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Alright, so it's sort of up in the air as to whether we should always use ensigns or use jacks sometimes. wwoods noted that this was discussed some years ago, but no really definite consensus emerged. Here are the two sides as I see them:
I believe we should always use ensigns. Jacks are only flown while the ship is not underway, so I think the ensign is more representative of what would be flying from the ship. I also believe they are also more recognizable: many people wouldn't recognize the USN's
First Naval Jack
, and many do not recognize the
old jack
either. I also don't believe that it's necessary to require a symbol that is distinct from the national flag. Confusion between, for example, the USN and the USCG isn't possible; though the USN uses the US flag as its ensign, the Coast Guard has its own distinct ensign.
I'd really like to achieve some kind of resolution on this issue, because I don't want to proceed with a project to update flags on ship articles without knowing whether to use jacks or ensigns. I'll cross-post this at the Maritime Military History Task Force to get more input. TomTheHand 19:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Why not both? It's not like there isn't room. Both flags are "information about the ship", the point of the infobox. I'm not advocating a massive edit right now, just going forward. Of course it could take us days to decide if the Ensign or Jack goes on the right. -- J Clear 22:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I always thought a homeport was a town or port, not a base, but this edit would contradict that. This would tend to support it. Comments? -- J Clear 22:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi. You reverted my edit to USS Georgia (SSGN-729), saying, "(rv - homeports are ports, not bases, see http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ships/lists/homeport.asp)". I'm not clear on what your objection is; that's a list of Navy facilities, not seaports. The Navy isn't renting civilian berthing space for its ships. The bases mostly take their names from the cities they're in, but, for instance, there's no town called Little Creek, Virginia. Towns like Bangor, Washington and Kings Bay, Georgia sort-of exist, but they're not where the ships are really docked, IMO.
There seems to be a couple of civilian shipyards on the list also, or at least that's the best guess I can make for the intended distinctions between "Groton, CT" & "Groton, Conn.", and "San Diego, CA" & "San Diego, Calif." I couldn't find any other reference to the
Texas being in Groton, but "During the first few months of 2006, HALSEY completed her Post Shakedown Availability at BAE Shipyard in San Diego, Calif. In April, HALSEY left the shipyard..."
[4]
—wwoods
07:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Sub section above from User talk:J Clear. -- J Clear 11:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
A user is reverting edits to ship articles. Please look at Rebecca's contributions list at least back to 23 September. I believe the original edits improve the articles and the reverts make the articles worse. I do not want to undo the reverts myself but other editors may wish to do so. bobblewik 10:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I've been working on the Joseph Hazelwood article and I've run into a bit of a snag. The NTSB report for the Exxon Valdez incident states that he was the Assistant Master when first assigned to Valdez. I'm not familiar with merchant marine and civil sailing roles/ranks so I was wondering if anyone could clarify this as it raised a question during the GA process. I have only two guesses, one, an A and B crew like SSBN's have with two separate crews and one submarine since tankers only make money while hauling product and would be underway more than a single crew could tolerate. My second theory would be like a CO / XO relationship, although I think the XO role is filled by First mate. If anyone knows, or has a net source I can use in the article, I would appreciate it. Feel free to add it to the article, here or on Talk:Joseph Hazelwood. Thanks. -- Dual Freq 20:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
There are a few ships (sometimes famous ones, sometimes not) whose page titles are not consistent with all the others. I'll just pick HMS Victory as an example. She's a very famous ship, but surely the page title should be 'HMS Victory (1765)' - with a redirect from the current page as that's what people would probably type in. Is this something we should perhaps look at altering? Martocticvs 15:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm looking through Category:Royal Navy battleships and wondering where ships of the line end and battleships begin, from a categorization standpoint. Is it iron armor? An iron hull? Steam power? Turreted main armament? All four? HMS Agamemnon (1852) was the first ship of the line/battleship built from the ground up with steam power. La Gloire was the first iron-armored ship of the line/battleship. HMS Warrior (1860) had the first iron hull. HMS Monarch (1868) was the first ocean-going warship with turreted armament. HMS Devastation (1871) essentially introduced the "pre-Dreadnought" layout. I'd kind of like to call Devastation the dividing line. TomTheHand 21:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I was looking over List of battleships of the Royal Navy and I like the distinctions it makes but I'm lost as to how to translate them into adequate category titles. I also feel like an "ocean-going" distinction should be made; I don't think coast defense ships are battleships. TomTheHand 20:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I've developed a new template for inserting an ensign/jack for the USN into infoboxes. All you do is type:
For example, if a ship decommissioned in 1949, you'd type {{USN flag|1949}} into the spot for the jack and get , the 48 star jack. If we decide to use ensigns in the future instead of jacks, all we have to do is change the template, so you can use this template onto all USN ships now. We can then change our minds back and forth on the ensign/jack issue and flip the template from one to the other in a moment. If you don't put a year (for example: {{USN flag}}), it'll default to the current jack, though I can change that default if we want.
There are a few issues to deal with. First, this is my first time writing a complex template, and it's crap. I put all the code on one line because when I broke it up nicely it was actually inserting a bunch of line breaks!
Second, and this is important: new flags were not introduced on the first of the year. New stars would be added to the flag on the July 4th following a state's admission. Most recently, the USN has switched to all ships using the First Navy Jack, and that switch happened on May 31st, 2002.
I wanted the use of the template to be simple, so it just accepts a year. If a flag change occurred, the template will use the newest flag from the year. If a ship decommissioned before the flag change date of a year, feed the previous year to the template. For example, on July 4, 1960 the 50th star was added to the US flag. If a ship decommissioned on May 1, 1960, feed 1959 into the template to get the 49-star flag!
Please ask any questions, give comments, tell me your concerns! Thanks! TomTheHand 21:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok! The template is now capable of accepting an additional optional input: width in pixels.
Here are some example uses:
There is no way to specify just a width. TomTheHand 15:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
One more note: The template automatically inserts a one-pixel-wide white border around the jack, so that it shows up clearly in the blue area of an infobox. TomTheHand 23:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I found Hoy (boat) and Hoy (ship) while randomnly selecting articles from the Category:Articles to be merged backlog. I assume that they are duplicate articles and need to be merged (with a redirect from one to the other). I do not know, however, which article should be the main article and which article should be the redirect. Please consider reading and researching the two articles and then discussing the proposed merger at this link. Thank you. -- Iamunknown 20:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed a new article at US Navy Ship Seals. Seeing how there are hundreds of USN ships which have seals, and most of them are discussed on the corresponding article page for the ship, I don't see the need for this. However, before nominating for deletion, I'd like to know if I'm missing something or if others see this as an odd article.
Perhaps if is was more about ship heraldy (if that's the right term), then it would make some sense to me.
Thoughts? Jinian 03:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've started asking around about this subject. Here are some early answers:
More to come, I hope... Lou Sander 15:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi all. Glad to see you found this article interesting. I was the one who wrote it (and hope it's not considered bad form for me to say so. :-))
By the way, just to respond to the first point, above, my observation is that most wikipedia ship articles do notinclude that ship's seal. I added one myself, to the article for USS Carl Vinson. Anyway, happy to see this discussion on the significance of US NAvy Ship Seals (or crests). I too consider them worthy of exploration. The NAvy certainly does seem to consider them a worthy means of expressing each ship's history, namesake, etc, etc.
As far as nomenclature, I will gladly defer to the group consensus. I do believe I saw the word "seal" used in at least a few instances. If I can find links for this, i will do so. Thanks again for all your great ideas and input. see you. -- Sm8900 01:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi everyone. Here is some empirical proof of the phrase "ship's seal" as correct for referring to these emblems. You can see at this web page http://www.cvn70.navy.mil/facts/shipseal.htm, which is the website for USS Carl Vinson. I have included the link without a title, to point out that the name of the page itself uses the phrase ship's seal. Here's another occurrence, at the website for USS Ronald Reagan (scroll down, and look at the list of links). http://www.reagan.navy.mil/about_reagan/about_reagan.htm Actually perhaps some ships' emblems are "crests" and others are "seals"? Perhaps seals are circular graphics, whereas crests are more similar to regular coats of arms. Hope this is helpful. As usual, thanks very much to all for the robust and enjoyable discussion. See you. --Steve M, Sm8900 01:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
(not indenting to improve readability) I don't mind having a section on US Navy Ship Seals in the Naval Heraldry article. Once the article gets too unwieldy, we can discuss breaking into various articles. I'd prefer one meaty, well-written article which covers the related subjects to many stubby articles.
But I don't feel strongly about this. Jinian 12:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi . I found a page which sheds considerable light on the whole seal vs. crest issue. Here is the description for USS MAhan. This description makes clear distinctions between the shield, which is the actual shield shown in the coat of arms; the crest, which is the shield accompanied by devices above and below; and the seal, which the entire image, acompanied by a thick blue border with the ship's name and registry number included. hope this is helpful. thanks. -- Sm8900 16:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Please would people keep an eye on this page. User:Mathieu121 keeps re-adding comments that portray the building of future Russian aircraft carriers as a virtual certainty, when it's actually quite unlikely. As the experts here will know, post Soviet military shipbuilding has been a slow, on and off, delayed process and completed ships have usually been corvettes, rather than aircraft carriers. Cheers Buckshot06 02:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I find it a bad idea to include inline text at the end of ship articles. (Example:)
See [[HMS Pinafore|HMS ''Pinafore'']] for other ships of this name.
I created a new disambiguation template {{ Otherships}} to be placed at the top of articles. -- Petri Krohn 07:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Template:Infobox warship, which you can see in action at User:Rama/FS template and Le Fantasque (1935).
It could be possible to make it even more general, by adding cargo space or sailing surface.
Comments, praises, hits in the face welcome as usual. Rama 12:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Could you guys weigh in on this? I'm generally opposed to deletion of categories that fit into our categorization structure, so I voted against, but even if you disagree with me I think the CFD would benefit from WP:SHIPS's input. TomTheHand 13:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we have a notice to place on article discussion pages to indicate that the article in question is supported by WP:SHIPS? If not, it might be worthwile creating one... Martocticvs 11:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
A CFD has been proposed for the merging of Category:Hellenic Navy ships and Category:Ships of the Hellenic Navy. While we have had issues trying to achieve consensus on how to standardize country/naval category names, it seams to me that the de facto standard is to use the Cathead naval ships of template (used in over 30 "Naval ships of country-x" categories), which would be Category:Naval ships of Greece. -- Kralizec! ( talk) 13:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
A while back we had a discussion about drawing up a sort of useful list of shipbuilders for the project page so that we were all singing from the same hymnsheet, that discussion was here Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ships/Archive04#Shipbuilders (now archived).
User:Harlsbottom produced this useful start point, here. Further to this, for my own use, I have compiled a list of British shipbuilders - User:Emoscopes/shipyards. At the moment this is just a reference for myself, so it isn't formatted. It is arranged alphabetically for the main, but look out, some are named out-of-order as they are chronological after the original name of the yard! Yes, this may seem silly, but it makes sense to me for what I am using it for at the moment. Regardless, please do feel free to make use of it.
I think we were pretty much agreed on that general format for inclusion in articles, that is;
It would be a useful addition to this project if we could start an official project list of yards, in an agreed format, so I thought I'd get the ball rolling again on this one. Emoscopes Talk 12:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I've made an abortive attempt at a shipyard list at User:Dual Freq/Shipyards. It's more of a Navel Vessel Register cross reference, but it might be useful. Feel free to copy from it to your own userspace or use it to start a list article. I'm not sure where I'll go with it because after after researching for a Todd Shipyards article, I found out that one of their shipyards (Brooklyn, NY, closed in the mid-80s) was leveled to make room for an Ikea store. The whole thing made me rather depressed, so I'm not sure my list will go much further. -- Dual Freq 01:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Initially I thought this was going to be an isolated incident at USS Charles F. Hughes (DD-428), but Derry Boi has moved on to USS Greene (DD-266) replacing Londonderry with Derry as both the visible text and link.
Copied from Talk:USS Charles F. Hughes (DD-428)
1) DANFS uses Londonderry, which means that it was probably that way in the official ships log or report, the usual source for DANFS. The relevant text of this article is a direct quote from DANFS, changes should have citations.
2) The ship left from the port, not the city, and even the Derry City Council refers to the port as Londonderry Port.
-- J Clear 20:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Sympathy to all who are mired in the Derry argument. Derryboy quotes WP:IMOS as a support for his view (which I would usually accept). However, this explicitly says it applies to article names and makes no recommendation on content. For me the issue is: was there a naval base and what was it called at the time - it's not uncommon for the military (US & UK) to allocate base names irrespective of local usage. Also, "Londonderry Port" is at Lisahally - was this where the wartime base would have been? Folks at 137 11:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'd like to render my opinion if I could. I don't think we should look at DANFS as anything more than a starting point. It often has an unencylopedic tone and it's not very NPOV. Since it's public domain text, we can change it in any ways we want in order to improve it. We should feel no pressure to quote it exactly.
- However, as you said, the port (which was a major base for antisubmarine operations in WWII) appears to be almost universally called "Londonderry Port", so it seems to me that the text should read "Londonderry Port" (instead of just Londonderry) with a link to Derry. TomTheHand 23:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Any other suggestions? -- J Clear 12:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Well the city is called Derry (see WP:IMOS)`. Therfore if you're linking to the city itself, "Londonderry" shouldn't be used. Derry Boi 12:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
This spreads further than the Derry/ Londonderry debate. When I've edited articles relating to WWII, I've usually used names current at the time, linking correctly and with an explanation in parentheses, eg, " Ceylon (now Sri Lanka)" or " Stalingrad (now Volgograd)". This applies to loads of places, including St Petersburg/ Leningrad, Burma/ Myanmar, Malaya/ Malay peninsular, etc. It seems right, to me, to use names used at the time and that might also apply to Kingstown/ Dun Laoghaire for WWI or earlier articles. I think there's a general issue of consistency. Also, if we're to use only official names, this might need explanation to less aware readers, eg Dublin/ Baile Atha Cliath. Folks at 137 12:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy ( Talk) 15:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I am the owner and maintainer of this non-profit website and own the rights to all intellectual property within it and would like to offer any of the shipping photos from my site to help illustrate any of the pages on which they would be relevant. I'd like to do this on the pretense that any articles in which my intellectual property is used is notified to me (maybe by a new page i can create in my userpages on which people can add what theyve done.) and also a link to the site or acknowledgement is also made. If someone would care to contact me about making this official I'd be happy to have a talk with them. Prior to such time please only look.
For reference the site contains:
JonEastham 23:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Dmitri Donskoi, a circa 1904 Russian cruiser mentioned in Japanese cruiser Akashi currently redirects to the ship's 14th century namesake. I couldn't find a rule for what the ship should be named. Note that there is also a modern submarine with this name, currently only described in the Typhoon class article. Rmhermen 16:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 22:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
While this is a useful template, in my opinion it's just too big. Therefore, I've taken a lead from some guys over on the AFV wikiproject and made a collapsing template;
Comments? Emoscopes Talk 12:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Should SS Red Oak Victory (AK-235) be renamed to USS Red Oak Victory (AK-235)? Doesn't seem right to have an SS with a hull designator.-- J Clear 16:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Please would people keep an eye on this page. User:Mathieu121 keeps re-adding comments that portray the building of future Russian aircraft carriers as a virtual certainty, when it's actually quite unlikely. As the experts here will know, post Soviet military shipbuilding has been a slow, on and off, delayed process and completed ships have usually been corvettes, rather than aircraft carriers. Cheers Buckshot06 02:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I recently adding a "Recommissioned" box and a second "Decommissioned" box to Template:Infobox Ship because recommissioning happens to so many ships. However, in the article which inspired me to do it, the ship recommissioned and decommissioned a THIRD time as well, and I didn't want to add another box without asking. I'm writing to see if people have opinions on this issue.
Should we support several periods of commission in the infobox? If so, how many? USS New Jersey (BB-62) commissioned during WWII, decommissioned shortly after, recommissioned for Korea, decommissioned, recommissioned for Vietnam, decommissioned, recommissioned in the early 1980s, and decommissioned for the final time in 1991. I don't really like the solution of substing the infobox and then making modifications to it once it's on the page. It leaves the page's code very ugly.
So I guess there are three possibilities:
I like the third possibilty personally but I don't want to complicate the hell out of the template without soliciting opinions first. TomTheHand 16:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey! I hadn't thought about the problem for a while, but there is a ((fairly) simple) solution. The idea behind the set of old mtnbox templates, {{ mtnbox start}} etc., which were recently replaced by an all-in-one {{ Infobox Mountain}}, would do. You need to split the infobox into sections:
All the parameters are optional, so you can stack multiple careers and they combine seamlessly. Heck, you could even use a career pared down to
{{Infobox Ship career | recommissioned = [DATE1] | decommissioned = [DATE2] }}
which produces
| Recommissioned | [DATE1] |- | Decommmissioned | [DATE2] |-
if you want to list multiple commissionings within one service. That requires that the blue-backed "Career" line also not show up then; make it dependent on the flag parameter having a value, I guess. And I've seen some ships with multiple armament lines, to show the ships' evolution. Mmm, for that, characteristics needs a flag to suppress the blue-backed "General Characteristics" line, so you can have
: | crew = [CREW] | armament = [ARMAMENT1] }} {{Infobox Ship characteristics | header = no | armament = [ARMAMENT2] | aircraft = [AIRCRAFT] :
to produce
: | Crew | [CREW] |- | Armament | [ARMAMENT1] |- | Armament | [ARMAMENT2] |- | Aircraft | [AIRCRAFT] |- :
How's that sound? The implementation is a
simple matter of programming. ;-)
—wwoods
06:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to avoid using copy and paste or subst solutions, because that negates a major value of using a template. -- J Clear 18:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to make a suggestion about index pages. How about creating rediretions for ship index pages with "(ship index)" attached, similar to "(disambiguation)" redirect pages for links to disambiguation pages? Then links intentionally linking to ship indices can link via these redirects, which would help sort out links which should link to specific ships. -- Kusunose 06:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I (TomTheHand) am copying this from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ships/Categorization so more people can see it:
My impression is that if an article is a member of a sub cat it should not be a member of the main category. For Example, USS Spruance (DD-963) is a member of Category:Spruance class destroyers and Category:Destroyers of the United States Navy, I believe it should only be a member of Category:Spruance class destroyers since it is a sub cat of Category:Destroyers of the United States Navy. Is this correct or is the existing dual membership correct? If not, I plan on doing an AWB run to remove a bunch from dual membership, but I wanted to check here first. I'm basing this on: "Articles should not usually be in both a category and its subcategory. For example Golden Gate Bridge is in Category:Suspension bridges, so it should not also be in Category:Bridges."( Wikipedia:Categorization#Some general guidelines) -- Dual Freq 01:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I guess I can respect that, it just seems that it would clutter the main category to put ships in both. I've probably moved some others in the past few months to conform with normal categorization guidelines and with the idea that if someone is reading the Spruance article and clicks the class category that cat will link them to the destroyer cat via the link at the bottom and they can surf backwards through the category system. Category:Destroyers of the United States Navy contains over 200 articles and wraps to a second page making it a pretty decent example of overcrowding. If someone has a specific ship name in mind, but doesn't know the class they might be looking a long time. Especially if they don't know a cruiser from a destroyer or frigate. Seems like the best bet would be for them to type the name into the search rather than scroll through several categories looking for the ship name. It makes even less sense to load the main category when you look at the List of United States Navy destroyers article, it provides the same capability dual category membership provides. I envisioned each ship in a single category and the Category:Destroyers of the United States Navy showing only sub cats and only the destroyer names that didn't fit into the sub cats. I was scolded on double cat membership a while back, maybe over on Commons, but I was informed it was a no-no to have an article in the same category twice via a sub cat. Anyway, I guess I'll leave things be if that's what this wikiproject is doing.
Maybe it could be clarified on this page, the line "A subcategory of Category:Ships by country" seems to indicate that since Category:Spruance class destroyers is a sub-cat of Category:United States Navy ships Category:Destroyers of the United States Navy is unneeded. The example is USS Enterprise (CVN-65), but it is a ship that is not a member of a class so that didn't help me understand that WP:SHIPS was looking for dual category membership. Sorry to bug you on this. -- Dual Freq 04:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so is this going to be the plan for the future? Individual ship articles should not be members of their respective country categories, and should be accessible in the Category:Ships by country structure only by going through the class categories first? Access to ships without knowing their class will be provided through list articles, like List of United States Navy destroyers. TomTheHand 15:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, well it looks like the three of us are the only ones who are going to give an opinion, and we all agree that as long as a complete list article exists, and the ship article is a member of a class category which is a member of a country category, there is no need for the ship article to also belong to the country category. I'll adjust the categorization guidelines.
Dual Freq, I have a couple of requests as you AWB around, removing cats: first, could you also try to insert a link to the appropriate list article? Second, could you make sure that the ship article is a member of a class article before removing the country? TomTheHand 15:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, I imagine that if country categories don't belong directly on ship articles, navy categories probably don't either; are we in agreement about that or should I leave navy categories alone? TomTheHand 15:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, another thing to watch out for: When a ship is sold to another navy, I'll put that country's cat on it. For example, USS Bang (SS-385) was sold to Spain, so I put a Submarines of Spain cat on it. I don't think it's appropriate to put that cat on the class category, because only one or two Balao-class subs out of over a hundred were sold to Spain. In that case, I think the Submarines of Spain cat should remain on the ship article. TomTheHand 16:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi folks, I just noticed this as Tom showed up on my watchlist (the Bowfin). I've been kind of busy with other things. For what it's worth, I do agree that the right decision has been arrived at. ... aa: talk 16:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I know very little about these articles, but it seems like Oiler (ship), Replenishment oiler, and Underway replenishment oiler overlap a bit. Could some of these be merged? If they shouldn't be merged, it would be very good to briefly mention what distinctions might exist between them. -- Interiot 20:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to share my own personal Happy Dance that we (not the royal "we", but the collective "we") have completed all of the USN destroyers. Obviously this was the work of the community and it feels good to see the list of nearly 1000 ships -- all with pretty blue links. Woohoo! Jinian 21:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
In a similar vein, as of now (23:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)), there are now no redlinks for active Royal Navy ships :) Emoscopes Talk 23:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I happened to notice that the index page for DANFS now has an email address for reporting errors. Dunno how long it's been there. —wwoods 08:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
To report errors in individual entries or to make suggestions for improvement contact the Ships History Branch at:
or e-mail your suggested correction to shiphistory@navy.mil. Please be advised, however, that requests for research assistance or information sent to this e-mail address will not be answered. All queries of that nature must be sent to the address listed above. All suggested corrections will be reviewed for accuracy. If you have documentation supporting a change please provide it to assist us in making pertinent changes. |
I'm working on a list of USCG cutters,
User:Dual Freq/List of United States Coast Guard ships, and I was wondering what to name it when copying to mainspace. I'm considering,
List of United States Coast Guard ships or
List of United States Coast Guard cutters.
United States Coast Guard Cutter says a Cutter is a United States Coast Guard vessel 65 feet in length or greater, having adequate accommodations for crew to live on board. Ships would seem to match naming convention like
List of United States Navy ships, but cutters would limit it to larger ships that may be noteworthy enough to have an article about. Opinions? Is it even worthy of mainspace, after some work? --
Dual Freq
01:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason for the dual entry of Bangladeshi Navy on the ensign-page? Both the naval ensign and the civil ensign are shown. -- Sir48 18:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe the article Mutiny on the Bounty could really do with looking at. Being quite a well known historical event in the history of the Royal Navy, it seems a bit disappointing that the article is the subject of a long and ongoing discussion as to whether it is HMS or HMAV Bounty. Additionally it doesnt follow the standards for articles about specific ships. ( HMS Bounty redirects to Mutiny on the Bounty, should it not be the other way around and should the article not? Does anyone have any comments on this? JonEastham 23:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Many articles and sources on WWII cargo ships use these terms to differentiate between two versions of the same basic hull design. Their meanings are elusive, or at least have been to me. Can anyone clarify them? Lou Sander 14:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Type C1 ship uses both terms. -- Dual Freq 01:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I am new to this WikiProject. I was wondering if there was a template for the user page similar to what WPMILHIST has. If it is out there, I haven't been able to find it. -- JAYMEDINC 02:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
USS Wisconsin (BB-64) is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy ( Talk) 14:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I have only just discovered this, and think it is well worth pointing out, as Category:Lists of ships is an un-navigable dog's breakfast of a category. When using the {{shipindex}} template on a dab page for ships of the same name, it enters the ships at Category:Lists of ships by namespace, unless you pipe it in this format; {{shipindex|name="shipname"}}. So, for the correct example of USS Ashlands, we put {{shipindex|name="Ashland"}} as a footer on the namespace USS Ashland. In the meantime, does anyone have any suggestions about how to clean up that horrific category? Emoscopes Talk 01:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
User:Cerejota has made a speedy move of Royal Navy to Royal Navy (UK) with no consultation whatsoever! How do we go about reversing this situation, which, despite being in order to adhere to WP policy, breaks any number of other policies in doing so. I have asked the user concerned to join the debate here. Please voice your opinions and support! Emoscopes
People might be interested to know that a new (fourth) edition of Colledge's Ships of the Royal Navy has been published this month - Chatham Publishing, ISBN 186176281X. Seems to be a one-volume edition, with a significant amount of the content of the old two-volume version - they've dropped some of the minor vessels which used to be in vol. 2, but kept "all the genuine fighting ships - like the numbered Coastal Forces craft" (sayeth Amazon). Shimgray | talk | 00:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone think of a good reason why the Courageux article is so named, and not French ship Courageux? She was notable for being taken by the Bellona, and nothing else really. Martocticvs 18:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Per discussions with User:Emoscopes, User:Carom, and User:TomTheHand, a Royal Navy (disambiguation) page has been created. Please take a look at the page and fill in anything I missed. Also, at the suggestion of JonEastham, I added a {{ Otheruses4}} dab link to the top of each Royal Navy page (however I have no doubt that fiefdom issues will see the link reverted off of half the articles within a week). -- Kralizec! ( talk) 14:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any WP:Ships guidance on trivia / fiction sections in articles? I recently looked at USS Illinois (BB-65) and USS Kentucky (BB-66) and removed some non-notable cartoon trivia, but it has been re-added. Is there any reason to include fictional or trivial cartoon information about ships that were not even completed? -- Dual Freq 03:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
In response to a suggestion of Emoscopes, I've created a sub page of WP:SHIP. It's probably in the wrong place, but it's up now anyway. The important thing is to attempt to differentiate between the various yards and companies, as when some people think of the company, they believe that the name and the history automatically applies to their shipyard, not realising that there are often multiple yards. Anyone who can add to it, please do so. If the format is a bit difficult, then say so and I'll change it. I only did it as a personal experiment during the summer which has languished for some time. -- Harlsbottom 11:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
What are the notability criteria for any given ship's inclusion? Are ships subject to general WP:N, or are they all considered inherently notable (as it is the case with geographic locations), or do you folks have some other specific criteria?
I am particularly interested whether a cargo ship described at Talk:Sinegorye#Discussion about the recent "copyed/expa" edit would qualify for a separate article. Assistance would be much appreciated.— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); 15:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to ask some folks from here to head over to Template:Groundbreaking submarines and comment on the issue of what flag should be placed by Drebbel's submarine: a Dutch flag, because Drebbel was Dutch, an English flag, because he was living in England as a patron of the throne and built his submarine for the Royal Navy, or both flags together. TomTheHand 14:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
A few months ago we discussed how we could give Template:Infobox Ship some customizability. For example, it would help to be able to have multiple commission and decommission dates for ships with several periods of service. For ships that had a big refit, it'd be nice to be able to have "before" and "after" sections of the template. For ships that saw service in multiple navies, we could have separate service sections for each one, with appropriate flags.
Anyway, J Clear said that he'd had exactly the same idea, and he'd done some work on it. His work can be found here. As you can see, it allows multiple complete infoboxes in one box. He said that he could finish it up quickly if there was demand, but he has been on Wikibreak for some time now.
I'm writing to ask if there are any template experts who might be able to finish it up. What I'd like to see is the ability to hide anything. For example, I'd like to be able to do this:
Or:
Does anyone have the template knowledge to make this happen? I had a lot of trouble with it. TomTheHand 20:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've added the capabilities I wanted to the template, but if anyone can make it look better or anything, the help would be greatly appreciated. Here's a rundown of the new features:
I'll work up some examples and post a link to them in a little while. I think a hefty tutorial would be in order. TomTheHand 15:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
What do you think about having the template user paste in the opening and closing of the table, and in the middle the user could make as many calls as needed to Ship Image, Ship Career, or Ship Characteristics templates? It would require starting over instead of continuing to use Infobox Ship, but I don't think it would be harder to use. TomTheHand 21:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
{{Infobox Ship |tabletype1= career |navy1= US |commissioned1= 1932 |decommissioned1= 1945 |tabletype2= career |commissioned2= 1953 |tabletype3= technical |length3= 500m |tonnage3= 10,000 |tabletype4= career |navy4= Royal Navy |commissioned4= 1971 ... }}
... |- {{#switch:{{{tabletype1|}}} |career= {{/Career|navy={{{navy1|}}}|commissioned={{{commissioned1|}}}|decommissioned={{{decommissioned1|}}}|...}} |technical= {{/Technical|length={{{length1|}}}|tonnage={{{tonnage1|}}}|...}} }} |- {{#switch:{{{tabletype2|}}} |career= {{/Career|navy={{{navy2|}}}|commissioned={{{commissioned2|}}}|decommissioned={{{decommissioned2|}}}|...}} |technical= {{/Technical|length={{{length2|}}}|tonnage={{{tonnage2|}}}|...}} }} |- {{#switch:{{{tabletype3|}}} |career= {{/Career|navy={{{navy3|}}}|commissioned={{{commissioned3|}}}|decommissioned={{{decommissioned3|}}}|...}} |technical= {{/Technical|length={{{length3|}}}|tonnage={{{tonnage3|}}}|...}} }} |- ...
Ok, I see what you're saying. Do any other WP:SHIPS members (or MILHIST folks) have opinions on how the template should work? I am not a huge fan of the numbering solution but I can certainly work with it if others feel we should go that way. I mean, it seems cleaner to me to have something like this:
{| // open table {{Infobox Ship Header}} // this configures table color, width, etc {{Infobox Ship Image |image= |caption= }} {{Infobox Ship Career |hideheader= // hides the "Career" bar so that multiple commission/decommission dates can be listed in the same career area |commissioned= |decommissioned= }} {{Infobox Ship Characteristics |hideheader= // hides the "General Characteristics" bar |displacement= |length= }} } // close table
Would it work? I don't think that having the template user open and close the table is messy, and I think a numberless solution is less confusing. TomTheHand 16:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I get the feeling this WikiProject died while I wasn't looking ;-) C'mon, guys! The ship infobox affects tons of people. How do you want it to work? TomTheHand 15:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Following up on my earlier suggestion, here's a rough implementation:
{User:wwoods/complicated ship table characteristics
![]() | |
Career |
![]() |
---|---|
Launched | 1999 |
Launched | 1888 |
Career (Turkey) |
![]() |
Launched | 1777 |
General Characteristics | |
Armament | 3 |
EW | 3 |
Ship length = 3
}} |
{{User:Wwoods/complicated ship table begin | Ship image = Image:IIH.png | width = 222px | Alt text = IIH }} {{User:Wwoods/complicated ship table career | Ship flag = Image:IIH.png | Ship launched = 1999 }} {{User:Wwoods/complicated ship table career | Ship launched = 1888 }} {{User:Wwoods/complicated ship table career | Ship country = Turkey | Ship flag = Image:Flag of Turkey.svg | Ship flag width = 60px | Ship flag name = flag of Turkey | Ship launched = 1777 }} {{User:wwoods/complicated ship table characteristics | Ship armament= 3 }} {{User:wwoods/complicated ship table characteristics | no header = yes | Ship EW= 3 }} {{User:wwoods/complicated ship table characteristics | Ship length = 3 }} {{User:Wwoods/complicated ship table end}}
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wwoods ( talk • contribs) 22:57, 22 December 2006
I'm having a bit of trouble following the infobox discussion, but I think that changes to the current template should not require modification of the 1200+ articles that already include Template:Infobox Ship. Meaning "Ship commissioned" shouldn't be required to be changed to "Ship commissioned1" to remain compatible. I don't know how to solve the multi-navy commissioning issue, but I think any modification shouldn't require a 1200 article bot run to bring the existing articles into compliance with the template. Maybe a couple sample articles could be made in user-space or project ships-space to illustrate the various options. USS Wisconsin (BB-64) uses the infobox and was commissioned 3 times by the USN, it could be used as an example in user space. ROCS Kee Lung (DDG-1801) and USS Scott (DDG-995) are the same hull, maybe an example that merges them using one infobox. The holidays will prevent me from participating very much for the next several days so I may not respond promptly. -- Dual Freq 22:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's decide what we're going to do with this infobox situation!
wwoods and I have proposed starting over with a new infobox, which the editor would construct out of several different templates. I have a working prototype that I'm pretty happy with which you can view at User:TomTheHand/test. It's got an example of the code you'd paste in and a little bit of stuff describing how to use it. It's pretty straightforward; please have a look!
Kirill Lokshin has proposed a series of modifications to the old infobox which would retain backwards compatibility but allow multiple commission dates, etc. Its invocation would look like this:
{{Infobox Ship |tabletype1= career |navy1= US |commissioned1= 1932 |decommissioned1= 1945 |tabletype2= career |commissioned2= 1953 |tabletype3= technical |length3= 500m |tonnage3= 10,000 |tabletype4= career |navy4= Royal Navy |commissioned4= 1971 ... }}
For backwards compatibility, rather than commissioned1, decommissioned1, etc it would accept "commissioned" and "decommissioned." There's no prototype yet, and coding it while maintaining backwards compatibility is a little beyond me, but it's definitely possible.
If possible, please toss in your two cents. As I said, I favor starting over with a new template, and the above prototype is ready to move to the Template space if there are no objections. However, if there is strong opposition and someone's up for coding the alternative, please post and let us all know so I can hold off! TomTheHand 17:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd be interested in seeing some articles with prototype templates in place, before I vote. One experiment I've tried is to create a class template ( I class destroyer) for "general description" which can then be reused for each ship of the class. There's some obvious drawbacks (eg, when one ship is "non-standard"), but it is handy and not complex. A computing motto is "keep it simple, stupid!". Folks at 137 22:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I like the concept and the enhancements for multi-flagged and multi-commissioned ships, but my number 1 concern is backward compatibility so that the 1200+ articles that use the infobox don't have to be re-done. Could this template / concept be Template:Infobox Ship 2 and only used when the editor choses it / or only used in the case of multi-flagged ships or other items not supported by the current infobox? If the additions can be done without wrecking the other articles then I think I'd support it. -- Dual Freq 03:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
My concern with Tom's template is that the table open and close is outside any template. This was probably driven by the coming change where a table can't span multiple templates. However it should be possible for the table open/close to be inside the single parent template, then include one or many sub-template[s] for every ship change. The parent template would substitute the numbered parameters into the generic unnumbered parameters used in the generic sub-template(s). In fact a single sub-template would look a lot like the current Infobox, except with the ability to default hide everything. I think Toms "Hide" parameter should be eliminated with suitable use of logic in the sub template. Tom'sWwood's use of different sub templates for the different blocks has the advantage of breaking the code up into smaller modules, a plus for maintenance. But the decision to include a block could be make with logic in the parent template. I'm pretty sure we could keep backward compatability that way. I'll try to put together a mock up of this is in the next day or two, but I'm not sure what the rush is. --
J Clear
16:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Alright, I'm going to move my template into the Template space in the next day or two and start using it. J Clear said above, "I'm not sure what the rush is," but this discussion has been going on for two months with nothing really happening. I think the separate template solution solves everything I wanted it to solve, so I'm going to start using it. TomTheHand 15:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I've moved the template to the Template space and posted it at our page of tables. The first ship I used it on was USS Bang (SS-385), which I think has benefitted nicely from it. TomTheHand 20:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
If you've put links to Navsource for a Gator ship, they will porbably break in 2007. See message about a site reorg here http://www.navsource.org/archives/phibidx.htm. -- J Clear 16:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
This caught me by surprise, so I wanted to give everyone else in the project a heads-up as we often use these templates in our articles. The visual formatting in the various dablink templates was recently moved to CSS. If you have not bypassed your cache, dablinks like {{ redirect}} at the top of Royal Australian Navy or {{ Otheruses1}} at the top of Royal Navy will appear to have lost their indent and italic text. See Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Disambig link formatting for more details. -- Kralizec! ( talk) 00:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Just to inform that a new maritime history project has started for Australia - Wikipedia:WikiProject Australian maritime history - SatuSuro 14:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
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I'm bringing over to wikiproject ships the text I just added to Image talk:IIH.png. My opinion is both of these things should be addressed.
I've just been making a bulleted list but then it occurred to me to ask here and see if anyone has done this on other ship articles and has a nice table, etc.? See CSS Jamestown - plange 18:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
commentbox | |
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comment text | If only we had a infobox for everything, then we wouldn't have to write articles |
signature | Gdr 18:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC) |
I thought it might be a good idea to start a new subject heading to list merges/renames/deletions. These are all related to the above proposal for reorganizing Ships by country. If you support the proposal, please vote on all of these individually. If you do not support the proposal and vote against these, please help to come up with a better proposal for the reorganization! Unconstructive criticism is unhelpful and just helps maintain the mess that we have now.
Added Friday, July 14, 2006:
Added Monday, July 17, 2006:
A couple of people have now voted "oppose" to merges and renames related to fixing Category:Ships by country. I'd like to start up some discussion to figure out why. I hope you guys who voted oppose will join in.
GraemeLeggett said the following:
Look at Category:Royal Navy battlecruisers, which contains four class categories, one era category, five ship articles, and six ship class articles. It is a complete mess of people throwing random stuff in there; it does not "work well." There is no logical scheme applied to it at all.
So what do you oppose about the proposal? Do you oppose what should go in them (Class cats, eras and ship articles, as seen at Category:Battlecruisers of the United Kingdom)? If so, what should be placed in the category instead?
Or do you oppose naming categories by country instead of by navy? There's plenty of room for debate here, but there are serious problems to be solved in either case. Please give a proposal for how Category:Ships by country should be structured. My proposal is as follows:
TomTheHand 18:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Discussions on Talk:Royal Navy#Categories and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/British military history task force#Categories indicates that the problem is with the rename, not the categorization proposal. Here are my issues with "Royal Navy":
I acknowledge that there is an issue with historical accuracy with the "United Kingdom" categories before 1800. However, I don't believe that issue outweighs all of the disadvantages of categorizing by navy.
We rarely use the official name of a navy. For example, the Russian Navy's official name translates to Military Maritime Fleet. The navy of Italy is called Marina Militare, or Military Navy. The French Navy is the Marine Nationale, or National Navy. I doubt you'd want to use these names, and I don't see why the UK's navy is an exception to the rule. TomTheHand 19:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
My take on this (and please correct me, if I get it wrong -- My connection is more on the merchant navy side of things) is that of nationality -- AFAIK, the Royal Navy is the British navy, and not that of the United Kingdom (although it's duties include protection of Northern Ireland (so the rest of the UK), but also the Isle of Man (not in the UK, but part of the British Isles), the Channel Islands, the Falklands, etc. This is asside from it's other duties, such as at present off Beiruit.
I think my issue stems from there being no concept of the UK having ownership -- partly because the UK refers to two nations -- Great Britain and Northern Irleand, so I instinctively think of things being British (of Great Britain) or Irish (of Ireland, Northern or Southern)
As a side issue, Google seems to agree that the Royal Navy is the British one. (the 15th or so result being the "Royal Canadian Navy" - ok, so that's still the same monarch) Looking at other monarchs, the closest being " The Royal Norwegian Navy" Ratarsed 20:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I (TomTheHand) had the following discussion with Jooler on my talk page and wanted to move it here for further discussion:
There is nothing wrong with the current categorisation of Royal Navy ships. The Royal Navy covers ships for England, the Kingdom of Great Britain, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and other system would lead to anachronistic declarations. Jooler 21:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Could we list proposals for Ships by country below and discuss our support of them? Jooler had a very reasonable proposal for naming the categories: base it on the navy's article name. If you have a proposal, please list it.
What about doing both in parallel? That way you could look up by "Canada" if you don't know that their navy was the Royal Canadian Navy until 1968, and the Canadian Forces Maritime Command after that. You could look up by "Germany" if you weren't sure which navy name to look up. It wouldn't require any renaming, and would make things easy to find both for naval history buffs and for the "ignorant masses." TomTheHand 13:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
But how many categories would ship articles have? Ship by country, ship by navy, ship by era, ship by type, etc... aren't those too many. -- Victor12 14:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Alright, each side seems to have significant support and significant opposition. I seriously don't see us reaching a single solution. Above, I suggested that we do both, and each ship should have a navy cat and a country cat. That proposal seems to have some support from both sides. Does it have enough to become our plan? Please post your support or opposition to implementing both at the same time.
Also, if we do decide we should do both, we should come up with a consistent plan for naming navy categories. Native names are probably silly, even if they're transliterated. Translated native names are probably a bad plan as well, because many countries simply call their navy the "Royal Navy" or "National Navy." Jooler suggested naming categories after the article, which I think is alright. CP/M's point about neutrality is well taken, but I think using the article names is as neutral as we can come while still remaining useful, and if there's a neutrality issue about having the article about the Marine Nationale located at French Navy then the issue can be resolved there and the solution can propagate down to the categories.
As a minor side issue, we should also name the navy categories consistently, either in the "Royal Navy destroyers" format or the "Destroyers of the Royal Navy" format. There seems to be consistency within nations but not across nations. I realize most people probably don't have a strong preference, but it's going to be necessary to perform category renames, which is going to require votes. If you're apathetic, it would be appreciated if you'd vote for whatever consensus is; if you're violently opposed to one format or the other, please speak now instead of after the renames are proposed. TomTheHand 13:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
A ship category disjucture earlier today generated this following linked query, and the presence now of effective interwiki linking as can be seen in those cited links: Problem of 3 BB Categories So while I'm not going to weigh in directly on such a heartfelt discussion, but would like to point out that what you do should take into account the international effects (and what you affect) with respect to the commons and via the commons all the various language sister projects which are in the process of being tied more much closely using interwiki cross-category links. (Finding those neat pictures will eventually get much easier, and extra help is always needed, perhaps especially on the commons!)
Then again, I should point out that certain commonly used search tools on the commons default to a mere three categories of depth in searching for an intersection of two criteria specified as category names... so minimizing tree depth is a really good thing idea. Also note, on the commons, an image of a particular battlecruiser is most likely to not only be categorized under it's specific daughter category, but also in the higher tree categories as well. Interlinking and being able to find things easily is more important than nitpicks about absolutely correct minimal categorization.
I believe it would be helpful for you all to know some of the other tools that have come out of the effort which began in categories containing maps. Take a peek at {{ w2}}, {{ w2c}}, {{ Cat see also}}, {{ Category redirect2}} for example, and {{ Commonscat4}} and template:WikiPcat for a usage glimpse of the interwiki templates (All are listed in Category:Wikipedia navigation templates, which is a horrible name, but suits until we finalize all the names in the system, including templates. See: User Talk:Fabartus and especially here for ongoing discussions towards making the interwiki linking a meta-project.)
If some of you were to add the relevant interwiki templates when you rework these categories, it would be much appreciated. More to the point, I'd suggest tying your learned discussion to take into account the commons heirarchy now, while making your decisions. These interwiki's can aid you in getting a picture of both trees. Note it is far easier to 'delete' a commons category than the Cfd procedure here on en.wp, so you all might take some time to tag and get a feel for the lay of the land while resolving the top-down heirarchy you are discussing herein. When in doubt as to whether 'things are equalized', use a '1' suffixed template, which tags with a slightly different category signifying more work is needed to vett the new structure until it can be said to be 'equalized'.
(We're currently working on cutting the list of templates down by adding if-then-else 'smarts' to do more, and there are enough trial variations and usage built in to give guidance some guidance in advance of a formal guideline. See both sister's
Category:F class submarines and both their two parents for few optional Main Article wrinkles using brief calls
Like: {{WikiPcat1|{{PAGENAME}}|F class submarine}}br /> and... {{Commonscat1Ra|F class submarine}} (Note the offset order of the Main article link... the templates default to a main article name matching the category name, and we'll probably adjust that sort of thing to be consistant.)
Gotta run. Good luck to all. // Fra nkB 17:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to begin implementing the compromise proposal, adding both a country tag and a navy tag, starting tomorrow unless someone objects here before then. When I have to create country categories, I will name them in the (ship type) of (country) format, like "Destroyers of Germany". When I have to create navy categories, I will name them based on the name of our article for the navy. I will name them in the (ship type) of (navy) format, like "Destroyers of the Kriegsmarine", because I feel it reads best and fits well with the existing categories like (era name) (ship type) of (country). If anyone has any objections, please post here and I won't do anything until we reach a consensus. Again, if nobody has any objections, I will begin tomorrow. TomTheHand 17:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a serious lack of consistancy throughout the site on the use of hyphen when it comes to ship classes. I'm seeing, for example, "Cleveland-class" as well as "Cleveland class"...both with and without the hyphen. Has there been a policy set which provides the proper format? It would be nice to introduce some level of normalcy in this situation (both for real world vessels as well as fictional and sci-fi ships). -- Huntster T • @ • C 13:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I have discussed the hyphen issue a lot on Wikipedia, it is not just the navy that is confused. Mercedes uses a hyphen (S-Class) officially but BMW does not (3 Series). People get confused because they think of 'spelling rules' rather than 'purpose'. Hyphens are tools to resolve ambiguity (compare "black-cab drivers come under attack" with "black cab-drivers come under attack").
Quotes from styleguides in
User_talk:Bobblewik/style#Hyphens_and_dashes:
Ship class names should not have a hyphen unless they are part of ambiguous text. bobblewik 10:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a question I have also left on Template talk:UK-mil-ship-stub, with regards to the phrasing of the UK-mil-ship-stub template. Currently, it reads "military ship", my feeling is that it should read "naval ship"; military being "Of or relating to land forces." I know the Army run a few vessels, but as this stub is used almost exclusively with regards to naval vessels, I feel that this is somewhat incorrect. Emoscopes Talk 15:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering what the protocol is on Pennant numbers on Wikipedia, if any. The pennant number article uses the simplest version, with no full stop/period between the Flag Superior and the Number. This seems to be the convention on many websites and in print, as well as being what appeared on the hulls of the warships themselves. By contrast, there are numerous articles on Wikipedia which cite the pennant number with the afore mentioned full stop/period.
If there isn't already an official convention on the matter, I propose that one be put in place.
- Harlsbottom 00:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Harlsbottom 12:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
|- |Pennant: |number here
I am in the midst of a project to document all the White Star Line ships, and have found an area of inconsistency that I'd like to overcome, and I would like to solicit interested folks' opinions. Article names for British liners are sometimes preceded with an "RMS" rather than an "SS". According to the article Royal Mail Ship as well as other non-wiki info I can find, RMS is really only a temporary designation for when mail is actually being carried onboard (kind of like Air Force One is really only that when the President is onboard). Any other time, the ship should properly be referred to as "SS". It seems that RMS usage has taken on the "popular" conception that it is a standard reference to a British ship (a misconception, no doubt, aided by the infamy of the RMS Titanic, since she was under that designation when she went down). Though it seems that the preference at Wikipedia is to use the title which would be most "commonly" used by the public (a problem that is easily overcome by redirect pages), I am concerned as a historian that by doing so we are giving false legitimacy to a misconception. Thus, except for special situations like Titanic, I propose that "SS" be used as the standard Wikipedia format, and I'd like to see if there's a consensus amongst the project folks. Concur? Disconcur? Akradecki 03:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Someone please cleanup this article, especially the infobox.
It is financed by Hellenic Navy (Greece) so the navy infobox apply. However, since it is a trireme, it has no powerplant and armour to speak of. SYSS Mouse 03:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
In a phrase like "8 inch gun", is it preferable to have a dash or a space between 8 and inch? I favor spaces and I think standardization is a good idea but I wanted to discuss it here. The Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) states that with units of measurement, a space should be used (preferably non-breaking). Should that be applied to our gun calibers as well? TomTheHand 18:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Has there been a consensus on using feminine pronouns in the articles to refer to the ship? I reverted an "it"ification of the USS Arizona (BB-39) article last night. I listed the rv as for no consensus cited. Also the anonymous editor changed broke to raised for an admirals flag, which strikes me as just dumbing down.
Some reasons to keep the feminine:
The opposing view seems to be centered on that any use of the feminine pronoun is somehow harmful. Maybe I'm ingorant of some specific and uniformly opressive connotation of calling a ship a she. But like the word "ignorant" I'm not willing to give it up because it can be used in a derogatory manner. Everything can be used in a derogatory fashion.
Observations of women who've "gone down to the sea in ships" would be particulary welcome. I'll be pinging a few I know including a CPO and an M.D.-- J Clear 13:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Another point in favor, from the American Heritage Dictionary: "2. Used in place of it to refer to certain inanimate things, such as ships and nations, traditionally perceived as female: “The sea is mother-death and she is a mighty female” (Anne Sexton)."-- J Clear 23:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody have an authority to cite *against* feminine pronouns? The complainers seem to be amateurs looking for sexism in every phrase, not actual real-life feminists. (Seems stylish to still use masculine pronouns for Russian though - WP doesn't *have* to be the blandest text ever written...) Stan 05:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Consistency. Formally, in normal English, as well as in probably all other languages, ships are inanimate and inanimate objects are "it". Feminine is a long tradition in navies, but, after all, we don't insert all of the naval jargon in articles, so "it" is correct as well. However, when the article is related to a certain country, it's recommended to use corresponding dialect, so I think we could establish the following:
Any thoughts or objections? This generally reflects the current use both in Wikipedia and in other sources. CP/M comm | Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 09:37, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
We can't legislate everything: some things ought to be left to the taste and discretion of editors. Gdr 15:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:CFD on United Staes class aircraft carrier category Category:United States class aircraft carriers, that contains the sole example, USS United States (CVA-58).
USS US had just her keel laid, and the fzip, scrapped, no other planned ship made it to a keel, or material collection, nothing else was named... as far as I can tell. Why does this need a category? There will never be another article about a US class carrier.
70.51.8.235 05:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
hazegray.org and navsource.org seem to have gone AWOL. No DNS resolution. Near as I can tell I can't reach their DNS name servers (same name servers for both). Nor can I reach them by IP (from another ISPs cache). Anybody know what's going on?-- J Clear 01:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
HMS Enterprize (1709) and HMS Enterprize (1743)? Can someone tell me when and why they were deleted or moved, without redirecting them? Pedant 03:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick heads up that I have proposed a merger of the lists List of aircraft carriers of the Royal Navy and List of escort carriers of the Royal Navy. Emoscopes Talk 13:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
In the discussion above, Further discussion on categorization of Category:Ships by country, we worked out a compromise where ships would be categorized both by country and by navy. I said that I would begin classifying articles I touch in the future in that way, and I'd be naming new categories in the format (ship type) of (navy) (like Category:Battleships of the United States Navy). This seems to be most consistent with the way Ships by country and Ships by era are named, and it also seems to be consistent with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories), though the naming conventions only address ships by country, not ships by navy.
However, I'm beginning to have second thoughts about the whole thing, and I'm wondering if these categories should be named in the (navy) (ship type) format instead (like Category:Royal Navy battleships). Many categories are already named that way, it's compact, and it looks good. Either way, a ton of renaming will need to occur. What do you guys think? I think I've presented both sides and I'm having real difficulty choosing between the two. We'll need a real consensus on this one, because we'll have to propose renames on WP:CFD. TomTheHand 18:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, everyone, for responding! I hope more people come by and weigh in. At the moment, J Clear, Kirill Lokshin, and Lou Sander seem to favor (ship type) of (navy), while CP/M and Stan favor (navy) (ship type). This kind of division is rough, because it'll be difficult to get any renames through at CFD. Perhaps a clear consensus will emerge in coming hours/days.
I value consistency of naming far more than any other concern, and so I would vote for any blanket rename that establishes consistency. Consistency doesn't just improve readability. It also allows greater use of templates to categorize, which makes category maintenance much, much easier. Does anyone else feel the same way? Alternatively, is anyone vehemently opposed to either naming scheme? TomTheHand 18:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to give this discussion another little prod. Can we come up with a compromise? Would people be willing to vote for either side as long as consistency is achieved, or are some people horrified by one arrangement or the other? TomTheHand 17:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I realise I am late to the party :) If one more voicr would help here it is. If positions are entrenched maybe a vote is in order. My view is that we should list by country to get a consistent solution that will fit more situations. Inge 19:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys, sorry, I've been out of town the whole weekend. Glad to see all the discussion. I originally started this thread to talk about the naming format of navy categories, but it's turned into a discussion of whether we should categorize by country or navy in general. I'll weigh in on that issue.
I feel very strongly that we must categorize by country, though I am not opposed to listing by navy in addition. I've listed my reasoning above; I'll repeat it on request but leave it out right now for brevity.
A month or two ago, I tried to drum up consensus for renaming navy categories and merging them into country categories. It looked like there was consensus here, but when I proposed merges and renames on
WP:CFD they were shot down hard. There is significant opposition to the merging of navy categories into country categories, especially from Royal Navy fans. The compromise that we worked out was to list both, which does have some use: it's silly for the US / USN, but useful for Germany, with its many navy names.
I will not propose a new round of renames on CFD, and I will continue to categorize ships by both country and navy according to the previous consensus on the subject. However, if someone else proposes them, I will vote in support of eliminating (renaming/merging/deleting) navy cats in favor of country cats. I will oppose attempts to eliminate country cats in favor of navy cats. If someone does propose the renames, please post links to the CFD on this page.
If a new consensus emerges for the elimination of navy categories and merging with country categories, I will obviously stop categorizing by navy, and I'll be happier for it.
TomTheHand
12:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
There's a discussion of this subject HERE. I'd appreciate anybody's review and comment. Lou Sander 14:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been building a database of ships lately, and when tabulating shipbuilders with the aid of Wikipedia I've come across "irregularities" which don't help accuracy;
For example, for a vessel built at the Bethlehem Shipbuilding Corporation in Quincy, MA, I have seen "Fore River Ship Building Corporation" or "Bethlehem Shipbuilding Corporation, Squantum, MA". For a vessel built in 1919 "Fore River..." wouldn't apply due to the yard having been sold under that name in 1913, and the difference between Squantum and Quincy is no doubt a matter of opinion.
What I'm asking is whether it is worth drawing up a list of shipbuilders specifying what names were used at a time a vessel was built, with redirect links to most recent name. I'd like to see not necessarily a greater consistency (as in some cases names changed often) but I believe that there will be a large number of shipbuilders which could be made more consistent. Comment welcome. -- Harlsbottom 01:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I've come across this exact problem for British naval ships, that is the constant changing of yard names, mergers etc. I always try to correct the yard to the name at the time the ship was built, although there isn't always a separate page so I often end up directing the wikilink to the most appropriate page. Emoscopes Talk 07:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Emoscopes Talk 12:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I've started a little page here just to test a layout and to collate some ideas. I intend to go name by name (discounting unnecessary variants). Any contributions/modifications in the interim are highly desirable. BTW, I do agree with the manner in which you mention the name of the builder, Emoscopes. -- Harlsbottom 14:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the Fore River shipyard and the Squantum shipyard were different facilities in Quincy, though both were owned by Bethlehem. [2] The Squantum "Victory Yard" was only in existence from 1917 to 1919, building 35 destroyers. —wwoods 16:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Please include German shipyards: there's info [ here]. Also please add the marine warfare task force tag. Good hunting! The proposed layout looks a good first cut - perhaps add any specialisms and links to specific articles. Folks at 137 11:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there a banner for this wikiproject? 24.126.199.129 08:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I just created a very modest stub at 3"/50 caliber gun. I couldn't find an existing article on it, and I've seen it on a lot of WWII vintage ship articles with no link. Anyway now it's there, so as you go back to improve you favorite ship articles, bear it in mind. And of course being a stub that article could use attention itself as I'm about done for now.-- J Clear 02:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys, I've compiled a list of World War II British naval radar sets at, oddly enough,
List of World War II British naval radar. I've arranged the page so you can pipe links from articles into the relevant sub-section using an anchor (E.g. to link to Type 279, [[List of World War II British naval radar#Type279|Type 279]]). I chose the page name carefully after much checking, as it fits in with the general scheme of things in the electronic warfare articles.
Emoscopes
Talk
11:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It's customary to add the appropriate national or naval flag to various articles, eg ships. What's best: the current version or one appropriate to the ship's historic period? For example: in WWII, Australian and Canadian warships flew the "white ensign" used by the RN. Their own ensigns came into use in the 1960s - so which is best to use? Other affected nations include Italy, Germany, USA (two more stars so no big deal!). Changes have been made to articles to show current flags (eg, HMS Nabob (D77)), so an agreed convention would help. There also seems no set rule about whether to use ensigns (Royal Navy - white ensign; Dutch Navy - naval jack (a nice distinctive one)), other than one that is distinctively naval. Folks at 137 08:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Iv'e been looking round this website ( http://www.navyphotos.co.uk/ ) and it has come to my attention that some of the photos here are supplied by external sources and also appear in many books I have. I would be careful about the exact copyright status of these images as they may just be scans out of books. Emoscopes Talk 17:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I was just looking through the RN ships of the line category, and there are a couple of entries labelled as 'French ship xxxxxx'. These were ships that served in the Royal Navy, but were either captured from the French Navy, or captured from the Royal Navy by the French. Seeing as this is a category for RN ships, would it not make more sense for the ships to be listed there under their names in the RN? I'll use the example of the Swiftsure - this was a ship built for the RN, and launched as HMS Swiftsure, serving in the RN for 13 years before being captured by the French, and serving with the French navy for just 4 years, retaining the name Swiftsure. When recaptured she was renamed by the RN. I understand why perhaps it is entered as a French ship, thanks to her participation at Trafalgar under the French flag, but as she was also a British ship under the name for far longer, it makes sense to me that she has a page HMS Swiftsure (1787), which can perhaps redirect to the current version? I'm not sure if redirect pages can have categories though... any thoughts? Martocticvs 21:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been working on a proposal for the WikiProject's ship categorization policy. Please check it out: User:TomTheHand/WP:SHIPS categorization proposal. It reflects the consensus achieved over the past few months and puts it all in one place. If we can generally agree that it's good, I'd suggest that we create a new page under WP:SHIPS and link from the main page to it, since it's a little bit long to place on our main page. TomTheHand 20:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
As a few of us seem to be opposed to categorizing by both country and navy, what if I removed the "by navy" guidance from the proposal and stopped categorizing that way? I won't try to remove existing navy categories or merge them into country cats, but I'll stop categorizing that way, since it seems silly for me to do it when I don't like it. People who like the navy cats can use them if they want. Would that be a good idea, for the sake of cleaner, more straightforward categorization, or is it a childish way to get what I want? TomTheHand 13:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've been bold and placed the proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ships/Categorization, then linked from the main WP:SHIPS page. The old categorization section was pretty out of date, so I believe this one is an improvement, but if changes need to be made to it, let's make them! TomTheHand 18:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm about to go through Royal Navy sloops, and I shall test out your instructions listed above because the current situation is an utter shamble of dead ends, orphaned categories and uncategorised pages. Emoscopes Talk 00:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Recently there has been an attempt at metrification of the names of guns used in naval artillery. It was being dicussed over at User talk:Bobblewik#Move of 16"/50 (copied below):
I'm not sure that I agree with your move of 16"/50. The article was placed there because the official designation of the gun is the 16"/50 Mark 7; the move places it at an artificial construct of a name. Of course metric measurements should be given in the article, but the article title should be the gun's proper name, not a description of it. 16"/50 Mark 7 naval gun might work better, or a name which works the nationality in: United States 16"/50 Mark 7 naval gun, perhaps? Another example of an article named after the weapon's proper name is 40 cm/45 Type 94. Graeme Leggett noted that the title should probably include nationality and "naval gun", and I agree, but I believe using the gun's official name is important. If we applied your scheme, we'd have 460 mm (18.1 inch)/45 caliber Type 94 naval gun, which is a completely artificial construct that does not reflect the gun's actual name. TomTheHand 14:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems I managed to start an almost identical discussion on a different project, here.
This was my thoughts; I was interested in starting some articles on British naval guns, so took a quick inventory of what is already out there. So far we have;
Obviously, there seems to be no systematic method for naming articles. The official designation of these guns is;
I would like to propose some agreed method to name the articles. There is already a fairly systematic naming system for (British) Army guns, e.g Ordnance QF 2 pounder and Ordnance QF 6 pounder, this simply follows the official designation (but drops the gun weight in hundredweights). The Royal Navy designation system is unique as far as I know, I therefore do not think that titles need disambiguated with the word "British". I also think including the mark is over-specific, as apart from the 15 inch and 16 inch guns, most guns went through a large number of marks. For this reason, and the fact that the Royal Navy does not include it in the official designation, I also do not think the calibre should be included; there are, for instance, L/55 and L/45 guns on the page 4.5 inch (114 mm) gun, which should we use? I personally amn't keen either on including millimetres in the title. These guns were never reported with a metric equivalent, or known by such (the sole exception being the foreign Oerlikon 20 mm (QF 20 mm) and Bofors 40 mm (QF 40 mm)). We do not have a page [[Oerlikon 20 mm (0.79 inch) cannon]], likewise we do not include millimetre and inches in the title of the 2 pounder gun article. It also just makes the title that bit more complicated than it really needs to be.
My preferred choice for a titling system would therefore be [[designation, calibre in inches / shell weight in pounds, naval gun]], e.g. [[BL 15 inch naval gun]]. The only shortcoming I can see with this system is where we have a case where a modern, unrelated weapon, is added into a page for historic guns due to a shared calibre - this is the case with the 4.5 inch (114 mm) gun page. However it would be my intention to move this to a page of it's own anyway. Emoscopes Talk 01:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
You're right that the examples you mention are poorly titled: the first three are horribly over-engineered, and the fourth overdoes the ambiguity. ("2-pounder" made me think of the tank gun, at least.) While a certain degree of horizontal consistency is a good thing, over-doing it could lead to titles that are neither official, and more to the point, aren't common names. I'd be highly inclined to go with the latter principle, to a reasonable degree "averaged" over generally similarly named classes, and taking precision into account. Alai 14:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Will anyone have a problem with me renaming the following?
I'll run it through a suggested move before hand regardless, just wanted to see if this general format is acceptable. Emoscopes Talk
Suggest articles should be named for the name of the gun in the era it was used. Otherwise we're going to get in to problems with the british 2 pounder and 44 lb. carronades. My feeling is that metrification doesn't apply to names. I'm not going to Amazon and look up The Longest Yard (91.44 cm). Metric values should appear early in the introduction on the gun article. Suggest using format 5"/38 caliber (127 mm x 4.8 m) in other articles.-- J Clear 01:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
We also need to establish a standard for " vs. inch in naval gun articles. If there is a strong consensus here that " is the way the guns were named historically, I think at least for the purposes of naming them, we should use that way. I don't have an issue with spelling inch out in the internals of the article using general MoS. But we do need to come up with a consensus to dscourage arbitrary moves.-- J Clear 02:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
As a further argument toward using the historical name, I don't see anyone renaming Royal Mile anytime soon.-- J Clear 02:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
From the views expressed above, I would propose that we have some sort of a concensus on the following issues;
A few examples for illustration;
your thoughts? Emoscopes Talk 16:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
These aren't necessarily easy to find. I found one source HERE, though. Note the inclusion of the word "caliber," which I recall from long ago was typical. the reference uses "inch" instead of the double quote, but I have a feeling that form wasn't universal. I'm going to keep looking for some sort of "official" reference. Lou Sander 13:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Without wishing to re-ignite a settled debate, has a convention for gun naming been agreed? Is it recorded somewhere? Does any Wiki list reflect this, yet? I'd like to link warship articles to the guns they use and I need some guidance. Folks at 137 11:07, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, we've discussed this issue several times before but never taken action. I've always said "I'll do it later." Well, later is now!
The Category:Modern ships structure is used to categorize ships that are in service right now. I think it's a good, useful structure, but many times we've discussed how "Modern ships" isn't really the best title. It's very vague. To some it implies that the ships are up-to-date and high-tech, which may or may not be the case. To others it implies that the ships are of the 20th century ("modern era"), which also may or may not be the case. We need a new name that really means "ships that are in service right now." "Contemporary" has been suggested in the past, and I think that's a good one, but it has that relative-ness that I don't like. Contemporary with what? I guess when it's not specified one should assume right now, but I'd be more comfortable with a term that specifically means "right now." My best ideas are "Currently serving ships" and "Present-day ships." If we can come up with some kind of consensus I'll propose the big move over on CFD.
There's another issue as well. We have a "Cold War ships" cat and a "Modern ships" cat, but nothing to cover the period between the end of the Cold War and now. If a ship decommissioned in 2003, that's over a decade of post-Cold War service, but she doesn't belong in a "currently serving ships" category. Anyone have a good name for a category to cover the period between the end of the Cold War and today? "Post Cold War" is the best I can come up with. I would probably say that the "Post Cold War" category should only contain ships that left service since 1991, or it'll end up too redundant to "Modern ships".
Again, I apologize for bringing this up for the nth time, but I'll really propose the renames this time once we work this out. TomTheHand 18:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to make the units in the infobox more consistent.
If anyone wants to help, feel free to use my monobook tool User:Bobblewik/monobook.js/general.js. Let me know if you would like help getting it to work. bobblewik 23:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems likely that we won't have operational histories of SSBN any time soon. And there seems to be a mish-mash of ways of dealing with the gap on SSBN articles, from ignoring it to visible remarks in the article like insert 4 years of history here. Seems worth constructing a template to explain the large history gaps in the articles. Something like {{missing-boomer-hist}}, which could read The operational history of submarine nuclear deterrent patrols has not been released by the US Navy.
Is it worth making the tag more generic or another tag to account for ships with large histoy gaps after the end of their DANFS data? Frequently there will be history up to the end of the DANFS data and then some decomissioning date from the NVR. Probably a different template since this is also common. Like {{danfs-gap-stub}}, The operational history of this ship is missing after the last DANFS update, (usual help wikipedia stub line here).
Do both cases represents a special sort of {{ sect-stub}}? The former might not fall into the "stub" concept as the data simply isn't available. The latter probably should be considered a stub. -- J Clear 15:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Being lazy, typing [[USS Foobar (IX-13)|USS ''Foobar'' (IX-13)]] to link to a ship always struck me as twice the work I needed to be doing. So I did something about it and created {{ USS}}. Now you can type {{USS | Foobar | IX-13}} (e.g. USS Iowa (BB-61)). Omit the second parameter to link to ship indexes (e.g USS Iowa) or such unique vessels as USS Constitution. I finally got fed up while editing List of Victory ships, so you can see some real examples there. It should be trivial to copy it for other ship prefixes (e.g. HMS), but I'd like others to take a look at and use it first. If useful, I'll write it up on the project page. -- J Clear 22:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Joshbaumgartner has proposed a rename of the Ships by navy categories to achieve consistency. Please use the following link to weigh in on what format should be used ((Navy name) ships or Ships of the (navy name)):
Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 25#Ships by Navy categories
As you'll see, I prefer using Ships of (navy name), but will change my vote near the end of the discussion period if there's a majority in favor of (navy name) ships but a lack of clear consensus. To me, consistency is more valuable than adoption of my preferred scheme; I hope some other folks will feel the same way. TomTheHand 16:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I know I promised I'd do this last week, but the size of the project intimidated me. I've finally done it. Please go here and vote:
Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 27#Modern_ships
Everyone's participation would be appreciated! It'll only take a moment. TomTheHand 18:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Several weeks ago there was some discussion here or in a related place about compiling a list of shipyards. Can anybody help me find it? Lou Sander 15:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
We could really use additional versions of Image:US Naval Jack.svg. As you can see, the naval jack is the star portion of the US flag. The jack changes when the number of stars change. If we have a member who can manipulate SVG images, could he or she create different naval jacks based on the flags here?
We already have Image:US Naval Jack 34 stars.svg, Image:US Naval Jack 35 stars.svg, and Image:US Naval Jack 36 stars.svg, which cover us for the Civil War and set out a naming scheme for future flags.
The one we desperately need is a 48 star jack. The US flag had 48 stars from 1912 to 1960. That means all of our naval jacks for American ships of both world wars are wrong. If nothing else, we need that one. TomTheHand 15:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I think we need to break the redirect at US Navy jack and have an article there like the US Flag one that diagrams the changes over the years. Obviously the original and present jacks would link to First Navy Jack. Or perhaps FNJ is short enough to be merged in the process. -- J Clear 22:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I had a feeling this would come up, I noted USS Alliance (1877) is listed for cleanup above. Obviously the 50 star Jack is wrong, but what Jack to give it? Do we use the jack at time of decomissioning, or what the ship used during its most notable period or action. -- J Clear 12:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been using the jack at the time of decommissioning, since it's at least more correct than using the 50 star jack all the time. I did make a mistake with Oriskany, which you pointed out; thanks for noticing! Trying to do it by most notable period/action makes sense, but it's so subjective. I'd rather use a technique that I can do quickly, looking at decommission dates, and if someone wants to change it later that's cool with me. TomTheHand 18:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Is there a convention for the use of any Navy's jacks in Wiki? I think they were limited to use while in port. As a non-US person, I've found the use of the USN jack confusing as it soesn't immediately indicate nationality to me (and perhaps to others). In most cases, we have used ensigns, eg, the Royal Navy's White Ensign or the US ensign, but jacks are used to clarify nationality, eg, Royal Canadian Navy (which otherwise used the White Ensign) and Royal Netherlands Navy (there's a plethora of flags with horizontal bands). Another point, if the USN jack is used, it should have a border, otherwise it's unsatisfactory against a dark blue background. Folks at 137 07:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Also can we list the preferred flags as a text table with the image link text to cut and paste, w/o actually displaying the image? The present display of all the flag images should go a list page somewhere as a reference as scrolling through it is a pain, especially with two of the larger navies near the bottom. Or perhaps break it down by continent.-- J Clear 23:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Alright, so it's sort of up in the air as to whether we should always use ensigns or use jacks sometimes. wwoods noted that this was discussed some years ago, but no really definite consensus emerged. Here are the two sides as I see them:
I believe we should always use ensigns. Jacks are only flown while the ship is not underway, so I think the ensign is more representative of what would be flying from the ship. I also believe they are also more recognizable: many people wouldn't recognize the USN's
First Naval Jack
, and many do not recognize the
old jack
either. I also don't believe that it's necessary to require a symbol that is distinct from the national flag. Confusion between, for example, the USN and the USCG isn't possible; though the USN uses the US flag as its ensign, the Coast Guard has its own distinct ensign.
I'd really like to achieve some kind of resolution on this issue, because I don't want to proceed with a project to update flags on ship articles without knowing whether to use jacks or ensigns. I'll cross-post this at the Maritime Military History Task Force to get more input. TomTheHand 19:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Why not both? It's not like there isn't room. Both flags are "information about the ship", the point of the infobox. I'm not advocating a massive edit right now, just going forward. Of course it could take us days to decide if the Ensign or Jack goes on the right. -- J Clear 22:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I always thought a homeport was a town or port, not a base, but this edit would contradict that. This would tend to support it. Comments? -- J Clear 22:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi. You reverted my edit to USS Georgia (SSGN-729), saying, "(rv - homeports are ports, not bases, see http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ships/lists/homeport.asp)". I'm not clear on what your objection is; that's a list of Navy facilities, not seaports. The Navy isn't renting civilian berthing space for its ships. The bases mostly take their names from the cities they're in, but, for instance, there's no town called Little Creek, Virginia. Towns like Bangor, Washington and Kings Bay, Georgia sort-of exist, but they're not where the ships are really docked, IMO.
There seems to be a couple of civilian shipyards on the list also, or at least that's the best guess I can make for the intended distinctions between "Groton, CT" & "Groton, Conn.", and "San Diego, CA" & "San Diego, Calif." I couldn't find any other reference to the
Texas being in Groton, but "During the first few months of 2006, HALSEY completed her Post Shakedown Availability at BAE Shipyard in San Diego, Calif. In April, HALSEY left the shipyard..."
[4]
—wwoods
07:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Sub section above from User talk:J Clear. -- J Clear 11:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
A user is reverting edits to ship articles. Please look at Rebecca's contributions list at least back to 23 September. I believe the original edits improve the articles and the reverts make the articles worse. I do not want to undo the reverts myself but other editors may wish to do so. bobblewik 10:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I've been working on the Joseph Hazelwood article and I've run into a bit of a snag. The NTSB report for the Exxon Valdez incident states that he was the Assistant Master when first assigned to Valdez. I'm not familiar with merchant marine and civil sailing roles/ranks so I was wondering if anyone could clarify this as it raised a question during the GA process. I have only two guesses, one, an A and B crew like SSBN's have with two separate crews and one submarine since tankers only make money while hauling product and would be underway more than a single crew could tolerate. My second theory would be like a CO / XO relationship, although I think the XO role is filled by First mate. If anyone knows, or has a net source I can use in the article, I would appreciate it. Feel free to add it to the article, here or on Talk:Joseph Hazelwood. Thanks. -- Dual Freq 20:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
There are a few ships (sometimes famous ones, sometimes not) whose page titles are not consistent with all the others. I'll just pick HMS Victory as an example. She's a very famous ship, but surely the page title should be 'HMS Victory (1765)' - with a redirect from the current page as that's what people would probably type in. Is this something we should perhaps look at altering? Martocticvs 15:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm looking through Category:Royal Navy battleships and wondering where ships of the line end and battleships begin, from a categorization standpoint. Is it iron armor? An iron hull? Steam power? Turreted main armament? All four? HMS Agamemnon (1852) was the first ship of the line/battleship built from the ground up with steam power. La Gloire was the first iron-armored ship of the line/battleship. HMS Warrior (1860) had the first iron hull. HMS Monarch (1868) was the first ocean-going warship with turreted armament. HMS Devastation (1871) essentially introduced the "pre-Dreadnought" layout. I'd kind of like to call Devastation the dividing line. TomTheHand 21:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I was looking over List of battleships of the Royal Navy and I like the distinctions it makes but I'm lost as to how to translate them into adequate category titles. I also feel like an "ocean-going" distinction should be made; I don't think coast defense ships are battleships. TomTheHand 20:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I've developed a new template for inserting an ensign/jack for the USN into infoboxes. All you do is type:
For example, if a ship decommissioned in 1949, you'd type {{USN flag|1949}} into the spot for the jack and get , the 48 star jack. If we decide to use ensigns in the future instead of jacks, all we have to do is change the template, so you can use this template onto all USN ships now. We can then change our minds back and forth on the ensign/jack issue and flip the template from one to the other in a moment. If you don't put a year (for example: {{USN flag}}), it'll default to the current jack, though I can change that default if we want.
There are a few issues to deal with. First, this is my first time writing a complex template, and it's crap. I put all the code on one line because when I broke it up nicely it was actually inserting a bunch of line breaks!
Second, and this is important: new flags were not introduced on the first of the year. New stars would be added to the flag on the July 4th following a state's admission. Most recently, the USN has switched to all ships using the First Navy Jack, and that switch happened on May 31st, 2002.
I wanted the use of the template to be simple, so it just accepts a year. If a flag change occurred, the template will use the newest flag from the year. If a ship decommissioned before the flag change date of a year, feed the previous year to the template. For example, on July 4, 1960 the 50th star was added to the US flag. If a ship decommissioned on May 1, 1960, feed 1959 into the template to get the 49-star flag!
Please ask any questions, give comments, tell me your concerns! Thanks! TomTheHand 21:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok! The template is now capable of accepting an additional optional input: width in pixels.
Here are some example uses:
There is no way to specify just a width. TomTheHand 15:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
One more note: The template automatically inserts a one-pixel-wide white border around the jack, so that it shows up clearly in the blue area of an infobox. TomTheHand 23:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I found Hoy (boat) and Hoy (ship) while randomnly selecting articles from the Category:Articles to be merged backlog. I assume that they are duplicate articles and need to be merged (with a redirect from one to the other). I do not know, however, which article should be the main article and which article should be the redirect. Please consider reading and researching the two articles and then discussing the proposed merger at this link. Thank you. -- Iamunknown 20:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed a new article at US Navy Ship Seals. Seeing how there are hundreds of USN ships which have seals, and most of them are discussed on the corresponding article page for the ship, I don't see the need for this. However, before nominating for deletion, I'd like to know if I'm missing something or if others see this as an odd article.
Perhaps if is was more about ship heraldy (if that's the right term), then it would make some sense to me.
Thoughts? Jinian 03:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've started asking around about this subject. Here are some early answers:
More to come, I hope... Lou Sander 15:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi all. Glad to see you found this article interesting. I was the one who wrote it (and hope it's not considered bad form for me to say so. :-))
By the way, just to respond to the first point, above, my observation is that most wikipedia ship articles do notinclude that ship's seal. I added one myself, to the article for USS Carl Vinson. Anyway, happy to see this discussion on the significance of US NAvy Ship Seals (or crests). I too consider them worthy of exploration. The NAvy certainly does seem to consider them a worthy means of expressing each ship's history, namesake, etc, etc.
As far as nomenclature, I will gladly defer to the group consensus. I do believe I saw the word "seal" used in at least a few instances. If I can find links for this, i will do so. Thanks again for all your great ideas and input. see you. -- Sm8900 01:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi everyone. Here is some empirical proof of the phrase "ship's seal" as correct for referring to these emblems. You can see at this web page http://www.cvn70.navy.mil/facts/shipseal.htm, which is the website for USS Carl Vinson. I have included the link without a title, to point out that the name of the page itself uses the phrase ship's seal. Here's another occurrence, at the website for USS Ronald Reagan (scroll down, and look at the list of links). http://www.reagan.navy.mil/about_reagan/about_reagan.htm Actually perhaps some ships' emblems are "crests" and others are "seals"? Perhaps seals are circular graphics, whereas crests are more similar to regular coats of arms. Hope this is helpful. As usual, thanks very much to all for the robust and enjoyable discussion. See you. --Steve M, Sm8900 01:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
(not indenting to improve readability) I don't mind having a section on US Navy Ship Seals in the Naval Heraldry article. Once the article gets too unwieldy, we can discuss breaking into various articles. I'd prefer one meaty, well-written article which covers the related subjects to many stubby articles.
But I don't feel strongly about this. Jinian 12:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi . I found a page which sheds considerable light on the whole seal vs. crest issue. Here is the description for USS MAhan. This description makes clear distinctions between the shield, which is the actual shield shown in the coat of arms; the crest, which is the shield accompanied by devices above and below; and the seal, which the entire image, acompanied by a thick blue border with the ship's name and registry number included. hope this is helpful. thanks. -- Sm8900 16:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Please would people keep an eye on this page. User:Mathieu121 keeps re-adding comments that portray the building of future Russian aircraft carriers as a virtual certainty, when it's actually quite unlikely. As the experts here will know, post Soviet military shipbuilding has been a slow, on and off, delayed process and completed ships have usually been corvettes, rather than aircraft carriers. Cheers Buckshot06 02:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I find it a bad idea to include inline text at the end of ship articles. (Example:)
See [[HMS Pinafore|HMS ''Pinafore'']] for other ships of this name.
I created a new disambiguation template {{ Otherships}} to be placed at the top of articles. -- Petri Krohn 07:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Template:Infobox warship, which you can see in action at User:Rama/FS template and Le Fantasque (1935).
It could be possible to make it even more general, by adding cargo space or sailing surface.
Comments, praises, hits in the face welcome as usual. Rama 12:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Could you guys weigh in on this? I'm generally opposed to deletion of categories that fit into our categorization structure, so I voted against, but even if you disagree with me I think the CFD would benefit from WP:SHIPS's input. TomTheHand 13:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we have a notice to place on article discussion pages to indicate that the article in question is supported by WP:SHIPS? If not, it might be worthwile creating one... Martocticvs 11:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
A CFD has been proposed for the merging of Category:Hellenic Navy ships and Category:Ships of the Hellenic Navy. While we have had issues trying to achieve consensus on how to standardize country/naval category names, it seams to me that the de facto standard is to use the Cathead naval ships of template (used in over 30 "Naval ships of country-x" categories), which would be Category:Naval ships of Greece. -- Kralizec! ( talk) 13:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
A while back we had a discussion about drawing up a sort of useful list of shipbuilders for the project page so that we were all singing from the same hymnsheet, that discussion was here Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ships/Archive04#Shipbuilders (now archived).
User:Harlsbottom produced this useful start point, here. Further to this, for my own use, I have compiled a list of British shipbuilders - User:Emoscopes/shipyards. At the moment this is just a reference for myself, so it isn't formatted. It is arranged alphabetically for the main, but look out, some are named out-of-order as they are chronological after the original name of the yard! Yes, this may seem silly, but it makes sense to me for what I am using it for at the moment. Regardless, please do feel free to make use of it.
I think we were pretty much agreed on that general format for inclusion in articles, that is;
It would be a useful addition to this project if we could start an official project list of yards, in an agreed format, so I thought I'd get the ball rolling again on this one. Emoscopes Talk 12:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I've made an abortive attempt at a shipyard list at User:Dual Freq/Shipyards. It's more of a Navel Vessel Register cross reference, but it might be useful. Feel free to copy from it to your own userspace or use it to start a list article. I'm not sure where I'll go with it because after after researching for a Todd Shipyards article, I found out that one of their shipyards (Brooklyn, NY, closed in the mid-80s) was leveled to make room for an Ikea store. The whole thing made me rather depressed, so I'm not sure my list will go much further. -- Dual Freq 01:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Initially I thought this was going to be an isolated incident at USS Charles F. Hughes (DD-428), but Derry Boi has moved on to USS Greene (DD-266) replacing Londonderry with Derry as both the visible text and link.
Copied from Talk:USS Charles F. Hughes (DD-428)
1) DANFS uses Londonderry, which means that it was probably that way in the official ships log or report, the usual source for DANFS. The relevant text of this article is a direct quote from DANFS, changes should have citations.
2) The ship left from the port, not the city, and even the Derry City Council refers to the port as Londonderry Port.
-- J Clear 20:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Sympathy to all who are mired in the Derry argument. Derryboy quotes WP:IMOS as a support for his view (which I would usually accept). However, this explicitly says it applies to article names and makes no recommendation on content. For me the issue is: was there a naval base and what was it called at the time - it's not uncommon for the military (US & UK) to allocate base names irrespective of local usage. Also, "Londonderry Port" is at Lisahally - was this where the wartime base would have been? Folks at 137 11:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'd like to render my opinion if I could. I don't think we should look at DANFS as anything more than a starting point. It often has an unencylopedic tone and it's not very NPOV. Since it's public domain text, we can change it in any ways we want in order to improve it. We should feel no pressure to quote it exactly.
- However, as you said, the port (which was a major base for antisubmarine operations in WWII) appears to be almost universally called "Londonderry Port", so it seems to me that the text should read "Londonderry Port" (instead of just Londonderry) with a link to Derry. TomTheHand 23:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Any other suggestions? -- J Clear 12:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Well the city is called Derry (see WP:IMOS)`. Therfore if you're linking to the city itself, "Londonderry" shouldn't be used. Derry Boi 12:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
This spreads further than the Derry/ Londonderry debate. When I've edited articles relating to WWII, I've usually used names current at the time, linking correctly and with an explanation in parentheses, eg, " Ceylon (now Sri Lanka)" or " Stalingrad (now Volgograd)". This applies to loads of places, including St Petersburg/ Leningrad, Burma/ Myanmar, Malaya/ Malay peninsular, etc. It seems right, to me, to use names used at the time and that might also apply to Kingstown/ Dun Laoghaire for WWI or earlier articles. I think there's a general issue of consistency. Also, if we're to use only official names, this might need explanation to less aware readers, eg Dublin/ Baile Atha Cliath. Folks at 137 12:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy ( Talk) 15:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I am the owner and maintainer of this non-profit website and own the rights to all intellectual property within it and would like to offer any of the shipping photos from my site to help illustrate any of the pages on which they would be relevant. I'd like to do this on the pretense that any articles in which my intellectual property is used is notified to me (maybe by a new page i can create in my userpages on which people can add what theyve done.) and also a link to the site or acknowledgement is also made. If someone would care to contact me about making this official I'd be happy to have a talk with them. Prior to such time please only look.
For reference the site contains:
JonEastham 23:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Dmitri Donskoi, a circa 1904 Russian cruiser mentioned in Japanese cruiser Akashi currently redirects to the ship's 14th century namesake. I couldn't find a rule for what the ship should be named. Note that there is also a modern submarine with this name, currently only described in the Typhoon class article. Rmhermen 16:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 22:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
While this is a useful template, in my opinion it's just too big. Therefore, I've taken a lead from some guys over on the AFV wikiproject and made a collapsing template;
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Miscellaneous vessels
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
List of Royal Navy ships |
Comments? Emoscopes Talk 12:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Should SS Red Oak Victory (AK-235) be renamed to USS Red Oak Victory (AK-235)? Doesn't seem right to have an SS with a hull designator.-- J Clear 16:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Please would people keep an eye on this page. User:Mathieu121 keeps re-adding comments that portray the building of future Russian aircraft carriers as a virtual certainty, when it's actually quite unlikely. As the experts here will know, post Soviet military shipbuilding has been a slow, on and off, delayed process and completed ships have usually been corvettes, rather than aircraft carriers. Cheers Buckshot06 02:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I recently adding a "Recommissioned" box and a second "Decommissioned" box to Template:Infobox Ship because recommissioning happens to so many ships. However, in the article which inspired me to do it, the ship recommissioned and decommissioned a THIRD time as well, and I didn't want to add another box without asking. I'm writing to see if people have opinions on this issue.
Should we support several periods of commission in the infobox? If so, how many? USS New Jersey (BB-62) commissioned during WWII, decommissioned shortly after, recommissioned for Korea, decommissioned, recommissioned for Vietnam, decommissioned, recommissioned in the early 1980s, and decommissioned for the final time in 1991. I don't really like the solution of substing the infobox and then making modifications to it once it's on the page. It leaves the page's code very ugly.
So I guess there are three possibilities:
I like the third possibilty personally but I don't want to complicate the hell out of the template without soliciting opinions first. TomTheHand 16:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey! I hadn't thought about the problem for a while, but there is a ((fairly) simple) solution. The idea behind the set of old mtnbox templates, {{ mtnbox start}} etc., which were recently replaced by an all-in-one {{ Infobox Mountain}}, would do. You need to split the infobox into sections:
All the parameters are optional, so you can stack multiple careers and they combine seamlessly. Heck, you could even use a career pared down to
{{Infobox Ship career | recommissioned = [DATE1] | decommissioned = [DATE2] }}
which produces
| Recommissioned | [DATE1] |- | Decommmissioned | [DATE2] |-
if you want to list multiple commissionings within one service. That requires that the blue-backed "Career" line also not show up then; make it dependent on the flag parameter having a value, I guess. And I've seen some ships with multiple armament lines, to show the ships' evolution. Mmm, for that, characteristics needs a flag to suppress the blue-backed "General Characteristics" line, so you can have
: | crew = [CREW] | armament = [ARMAMENT1] }} {{Infobox Ship characteristics | header = no | armament = [ARMAMENT2] | aircraft = [AIRCRAFT] :
to produce
: | Crew | [CREW] |- | Armament | [ARMAMENT1] |- | Armament | [ARMAMENT2] |- | Aircraft | [AIRCRAFT] |- :
How's that sound? The implementation is a
simple matter of programming. ;-)
—wwoods
06:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to avoid using copy and paste or subst solutions, because that negates a major value of using a template. -- J Clear 18:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to make a suggestion about index pages. How about creating rediretions for ship index pages with "(ship index)" attached, similar to "(disambiguation)" redirect pages for links to disambiguation pages? Then links intentionally linking to ship indices can link via these redirects, which would help sort out links which should link to specific ships. -- Kusunose 06:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I (TomTheHand) am copying this from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ships/Categorization so more people can see it:
My impression is that if an article is a member of a sub cat it should not be a member of the main category. For Example, USS Spruance (DD-963) is a member of Category:Spruance class destroyers and Category:Destroyers of the United States Navy, I believe it should only be a member of Category:Spruance class destroyers since it is a sub cat of Category:Destroyers of the United States Navy. Is this correct or is the existing dual membership correct? If not, I plan on doing an AWB run to remove a bunch from dual membership, but I wanted to check here first. I'm basing this on: "Articles should not usually be in both a category and its subcategory. For example Golden Gate Bridge is in Category:Suspension bridges, so it should not also be in Category:Bridges."( Wikipedia:Categorization#Some general guidelines) -- Dual Freq 01:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I guess I can respect that, it just seems that it would clutter the main category to put ships in both. I've probably moved some others in the past few months to conform with normal categorization guidelines and with the idea that if someone is reading the Spruance article and clicks the class category that cat will link them to the destroyer cat via the link at the bottom and they can surf backwards through the category system. Category:Destroyers of the United States Navy contains over 200 articles and wraps to a second page making it a pretty decent example of overcrowding. If someone has a specific ship name in mind, but doesn't know the class they might be looking a long time. Especially if they don't know a cruiser from a destroyer or frigate. Seems like the best bet would be for them to type the name into the search rather than scroll through several categories looking for the ship name. It makes even less sense to load the main category when you look at the List of United States Navy destroyers article, it provides the same capability dual category membership provides. I envisioned each ship in a single category and the Category:Destroyers of the United States Navy showing only sub cats and only the destroyer names that didn't fit into the sub cats. I was scolded on double cat membership a while back, maybe over on Commons, but I was informed it was a no-no to have an article in the same category twice via a sub cat. Anyway, I guess I'll leave things be if that's what this wikiproject is doing.
Maybe it could be clarified on this page, the line "A subcategory of Category:Ships by country" seems to indicate that since Category:Spruance class destroyers is a sub-cat of Category:United States Navy ships Category:Destroyers of the United States Navy is unneeded. The example is USS Enterprise (CVN-65), but it is a ship that is not a member of a class so that didn't help me understand that WP:SHIPS was looking for dual category membership. Sorry to bug you on this. -- Dual Freq 04:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so is this going to be the plan for the future? Individual ship articles should not be members of their respective country categories, and should be accessible in the Category:Ships by country structure only by going through the class categories first? Access to ships without knowing their class will be provided through list articles, like List of United States Navy destroyers. TomTheHand 15:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, well it looks like the three of us are the only ones who are going to give an opinion, and we all agree that as long as a complete list article exists, and the ship article is a member of a class category which is a member of a country category, there is no need for the ship article to also belong to the country category. I'll adjust the categorization guidelines.
Dual Freq, I have a couple of requests as you AWB around, removing cats: first, could you also try to insert a link to the appropriate list article? Second, could you make sure that the ship article is a member of a class article before removing the country? TomTheHand 15:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, I imagine that if country categories don't belong directly on ship articles, navy categories probably don't either; are we in agreement about that or should I leave navy categories alone? TomTheHand 15:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, another thing to watch out for: When a ship is sold to another navy, I'll put that country's cat on it. For example, USS Bang (SS-385) was sold to Spain, so I put a Submarines of Spain cat on it. I don't think it's appropriate to put that cat on the class category, because only one or two Balao-class subs out of over a hundred were sold to Spain. In that case, I think the Submarines of Spain cat should remain on the ship article. TomTheHand 16:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi folks, I just noticed this as Tom showed up on my watchlist (the Bowfin). I've been kind of busy with other things. For what it's worth, I do agree that the right decision has been arrived at. ... aa: talk 16:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I know very little about these articles, but it seems like Oiler (ship), Replenishment oiler, and Underway replenishment oiler overlap a bit. Could some of these be merged? If they shouldn't be merged, it would be very good to briefly mention what distinctions might exist between them. -- Interiot 20:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to share my own personal Happy Dance that we (not the royal "we", but the collective "we") have completed all of the USN destroyers. Obviously this was the work of the community and it feels good to see the list of nearly 1000 ships -- all with pretty blue links. Woohoo! Jinian 21:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
In a similar vein, as of now (23:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)), there are now no redlinks for active Royal Navy ships :) Emoscopes Talk 23:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I happened to notice that the index page for DANFS now has an email address for reporting errors. Dunno how long it's been there. —wwoods 08:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
To report errors in individual entries or to make suggestions for improvement contact the Ships History Branch at:
or e-mail your suggested correction to shiphistory@navy.mil. Please be advised, however, that requests for research assistance or information sent to this e-mail address will not be answered. All queries of that nature must be sent to the address listed above. All suggested corrections will be reviewed for accuracy. If you have documentation supporting a change please provide it to assist us in making pertinent changes. |
I'm working on a list of USCG cutters,
User:Dual Freq/List of United States Coast Guard ships, and I was wondering what to name it when copying to mainspace. I'm considering,
List of United States Coast Guard ships or
List of United States Coast Guard cutters.
United States Coast Guard Cutter says a Cutter is a United States Coast Guard vessel 65 feet in length or greater, having adequate accommodations for crew to live on board. Ships would seem to match naming convention like
List of United States Navy ships, but cutters would limit it to larger ships that may be noteworthy enough to have an article about. Opinions? Is it even worthy of mainspace, after some work? --
Dual Freq
01:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason for the dual entry of Bangladeshi Navy on the ensign-page? Both the naval ensign and the civil ensign are shown. -- Sir48 18:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe the article Mutiny on the Bounty could really do with looking at. Being quite a well known historical event in the history of the Royal Navy, it seems a bit disappointing that the article is the subject of a long and ongoing discussion as to whether it is HMS or HMAV Bounty. Additionally it doesnt follow the standards for articles about specific ships. ( HMS Bounty redirects to Mutiny on the Bounty, should it not be the other way around and should the article not? Does anyone have any comments on this? JonEastham 23:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Many articles and sources on WWII cargo ships use these terms to differentiate between two versions of the same basic hull design. Their meanings are elusive, or at least have been to me. Can anyone clarify them? Lou Sander 14:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Type C1 ship uses both terms. -- Dual Freq 01:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I am new to this WikiProject. I was wondering if there was a template for the user page similar to what WPMILHIST has. If it is out there, I haven't been able to find it. -- JAYMEDINC 02:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
USS Wisconsin (BB-64) is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy ( Talk) 14:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I have only just discovered this, and think it is well worth pointing out, as Category:Lists of ships is an un-navigable dog's breakfast of a category. When using the {{shipindex}} template on a dab page for ships of the same name, it enters the ships at Category:Lists of ships by namespace, unless you pipe it in this format; {{shipindex|name="shipname"}}. So, for the correct example of USS Ashlands, we put {{shipindex|name="Ashland"}} as a footer on the namespace USS Ashland. In the meantime, does anyone have any suggestions about how to clean up that horrific category? Emoscopes Talk 01:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
User:Cerejota has made a speedy move of Royal Navy to Royal Navy (UK) with no consultation whatsoever! How do we go about reversing this situation, which, despite being in order to adhere to WP policy, breaks any number of other policies in doing so. I have asked the user concerned to join the debate here. Please voice your opinions and support! Emoscopes
People might be interested to know that a new (fourth) edition of Colledge's Ships of the Royal Navy has been published this month - Chatham Publishing, ISBN 186176281X. Seems to be a one-volume edition, with a significant amount of the content of the old two-volume version - they've dropped some of the minor vessels which used to be in vol. 2, but kept "all the genuine fighting ships - like the numbered Coastal Forces craft" (sayeth Amazon). Shimgray | talk | 00:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone think of a good reason why the Courageux article is so named, and not French ship Courageux? She was notable for being taken by the Bellona, and nothing else really. Martocticvs 18:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Per discussions with User:Emoscopes, User:Carom, and User:TomTheHand, a Royal Navy (disambiguation) page has been created. Please take a look at the page and fill in anything I missed. Also, at the suggestion of JonEastham, I added a {{ Otheruses4}} dab link to the top of each Royal Navy page (however I have no doubt that fiefdom issues will see the link reverted off of half the articles within a week). -- Kralizec! ( talk) 14:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any WP:Ships guidance on trivia / fiction sections in articles? I recently looked at USS Illinois (BB-65) and USS Kentucky (BB-66) and removed some non-notable cartoon trivia, but it has been re-added. Is there any reason to include fictional or trivial cartoon information about ships that were not even completed? -- Dual Freq 03:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
In response to a suggestion of Emoscopes, I've created a sub page of WP:SHIP. It's probably in the wrong place, but it's up now anyway. The important thing is to attempt to differentiate between the various yards and companies, as when some people think of the company, they believe that the name and the history automatically applies to their shipyard, not realising that there are often multiple yards. Anyone who can add to it, please do so. If the format is a bit difficult, then say so and I'll change it. I only did it as a personal experiment during the summer which has languished for some time. -- Harlsbottom 11:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
What are the notability criteria for any given ship's inclusion? Are ships subject to general WP:N, or are they all considered inherently notable (as it is the case with geographic locations), or do you folks have some other specific criteria?
I am particularly interested whether a cargo ship described at Talk:Sinegorye#Discussion about the recent "copyed/expa" edit would qualify for a separate article. Assistance would be much appreciated.— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); 15:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to ask some folks from here to head over to Template:Groundbreaking submarines and comment on the issue of what flag should be placed by Drebbel's submarine: a Dutch flag, because Drebbel was Dutch, an English flag, because he was living in England as a patron of the throne and built his submarine for the Royal Navy, or both flags together. TomTheHand 14:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
A few months ago we discussed how we could give Template:Infobox Ship some customizability. For example, it would help to be able to have multiple commission and decommission dates for ships with several periods of service. For ships that had a big refit, it'd be nice to be able to have "before" and "after" sections of the template. For ships that saw service in multiple navies, we could have separate service sections for each one, with appropriate flags.
Anyway, J Clear said that he'd had exactly the same idea, and he'd done some work on it. His work can be found here. As you can see, it allows multiple complete infoboxes in one box. He said that he could finish it up quickly if there was demand, but he has been on Wikibreak for some time now.
I'm writing to ask if there are any template experts who might be able to finish it up. What I'd like to see is the ability to hide anything. For example, I'd like to be able to do this:
Or:
Does anyone have the template knowledge to make this happen? I had a lot of trouble with it. TomTheHand 20:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've added the capabilities I wanted to the template, but if anyone can make it look better or anything, the help would be greatly appreciated. Here's a rundown of the new features:
I'll work up some examples and post a link to them in a little while. I think a hefty tutorial would be in order. TomTheHand 15:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
What do you think about having the template user paste in the opening and closing of the table, and in the middle the user could make as many calls as needed to Ship Image, Ship Career, or Ship Characteristics templates? It would require starting over instead of continuing to use Infobox Ship, but I don't think it would be harder to use. TomTheHand 21:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
{{Infobox Ship |tabletype1= career |navy1= US |commissioned1= 1932 |decommissioned1= 1945 |tabletype2= career |commissioned2= 1953 |tabletype3= technical |length3= 500m |tonnage3= 10,000 |tabletype4= career |navy4= Royal Navy |commissioned4= 1971 ... }}
... |- {{#switch:{{{tabletype1|}}} |career= {{/Career|navy={{{navy1|}}}|commissioned={{{commissioned1|}}}|decommissioned={{{decommissioned1|}}}|...}} |technical= {{/Technical|length={{{length1|}}}|tonnage={{{tonnage1|}}}|...}} }} |- {{#switch:{{{tabletype2|}}} |career= {{/Career|navy={{{navy2|}}}|commissioned={{{commissioned2|}}}|decommissioned={{{decommissioned2|}}}|...}} |technical= {{/Technical|length={{{length2|}}}|tonnage={{{tonnage2|}}}|...}} }} |- {{#switch:{{{tabletype3|}}} |career= {{/Career|navy={{{navy3|}}}|commissioned={{{commissioned3|}}}|decommissioned={{{decommissioned3|}}}|...}} |technical= {{/Technical|length={{{length3|}}}|tonnage={{{tonnage3|}}}|...}} }} |- ...
Ok, I see what you're saying. Do any other WP:SHIPS members (or MILHIST folks) have opinions on how the template should work? I am not a huge fan of the numbering solution but I can certainly work with it if others feel we should go that way. I mean, it seems cleaner to me to have something like this:
{| // open table {{Infobox Ship Header}} // this configures table color, width, etc {{Infobox Ship Image |image= |caption= }} {{Infobox Ship Career |hideheader= // hides the "Career" bar so that multiple commission/decommission dates can be listed in the same career area |commissioned= |decommissioned= }} {{Infobox Ship Characteristics |hideheader= // hides the "General Characteristics" bar |displacement= |length= }} } // close table
Would it work? I don't think that having the template user open and close the table is messy, and I think a numberless solution is less confusing. TomTheHand 16:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I get the feeling this WikiProject died while I wasn't looking ;-) C'mon, guys! The ship infobox affects tons of people. How do you want it to work? TomTheHand 15:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Following up on my earlier suggestion, here's a rough implementation:
{User:wwoods/complicated ship table characteristics
![]() | |
Career |
![]() |
---|---|
Launched | 1999 |
Launched | 1888 |
Career (Turkey) |
![]() |
Launched | 1777 |
General Characteristics | |
Armament | 3 |
EW | 3 |
Ship length = 3
}} |
{{User:Wwoods/complicated ship table begin | Ship image = Image:IIH.png | width = 222px | Alt text = IIH }} {{User:Wwoods/complicated ship table career | Ship flag = Image:IIH.png | Ship launched = 1999 }} {{User:Wwoods/complicated ship table career | Ship launched = 1888 }} {{User:Wwoods/complicated ship table career | Ship country = Turkey | Ship flag = Image:Flag of Turkey.svg | Ship flag width = 60px | Ship flag name = flag of Turkey | Ship launched = 1777 }} {{User:wwoods/complicated ship table characteristics | Ship armament= 3 }} {{User:wwoods/complicated ship table characteristics | no header = yes | Ship EW= 3 }} {{User:wwoods/complicated ship table characteristics | Ship length = 3 }} {{User:Wwoods/complicated ship table end}}
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wwoods ( talk • contribs) 22:57, 22 December 2006
I'm having a bit of trouble following the infobox discussion, but I think that changes to the current template should not require modification of the 1200+ articles that already include Template:Infobox Ship. Meaning "Ship commissioned" shouldn't be required to be changed to "Ship commissioned1" to remain compatible. I don't know how to solve the multi-navy commissioning issue, but I think any modification shouldn't require a 1200 article bot run to bring the existing articles into compliance with the template. Maybe a couple sample articles could be made in user-space or project ships-space to illustrate the various options. USS Wisconsin (BB-64) uses the infobox and was commissioned 3 times by the USN, it could be used as an example in user space. ROCS Kee Lung (DDG-1801) and USS Scott (DDG-995) are the same hull, maybe an example that merges them using one infobox. The holidays will prevent me from participating very much for the next several days so I may not respond promptly. -- Dual Freq 22:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's decide what we're going to do with this infobox situation!
wwoods and I have proposed starting over with a new infobox, which the editor would construct out of several different templates. I have a working prototype that I'm pretty happy with which you can view at User:TomTheHand/test. It's got an example of the code you'd paste in and a little bit of stuff describing how to use it. It's pretty straightforward; please have a look!
Kirill Lokshin has proposed a series of modifications to the old infobox which would retain backwards compatibility but allow multiple commission dates, etc. Its invocation would look like this:
{{Infobox Ship |tabletype1= career |navy1= US |commissioned1= 1932 |decommissioned1= 1945 |tabletype2= career |commissioned2= 1953 |tabletype3= technical |length3= 500m |tonnage3= 10,000 |tabletype4= career |navy4= Royal Navy |commissioned4= 1971 ... }}
For backwards compatibility, rather than commissioned1, decommissioned1, etc it would accept "commissioned" and "decommissioned." There's no prototype yet, and coding it while maintaining backwards compatibility is a little beyond me, but it's definitely possible.
If possible, please toss in your two cents. As I said, I favor starting over with a new template, and the above prototype is ready to move to the Template space if there are no objections. However, if there is strong opposition and someone's up for coding the alternative, please post and let us all know so I can hold off! TomTheHand 17:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd be interested in seeing some articles with prototype templates in place, before I vote. One experiment I've tried is to create a class template ( I class destroyer) for "general description" which can then be reused for each ship of the class. There's some obvious drawbacks (eg, when one ship is "non-standard"), but it is handy and not complex. A computing motto is "keep it simple, stupid!". Folks at 137 22:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I like the concept and the enhancements for multi-flagged and multi-commissioned ships, but my number 1 concern is backward compatibility so that the 1200+ articles that use the infobox don't have to be re-done. Could this template / concept be Template:Infobox Ship 2 and only used when the editor choses it / or only used in the case of multi-flagged ships or other items not supported by the current infobox? If the additions can be done without wrecking the other articles then I think I'd support it. -- Dual Freq 03:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
My concern with Tom's template is that the table open and close is outside any template. This was probably driven by the coming change where a table can't span multiple templates. However it should be possible for the table open/close to be inside the single parent template, then include one or many sub-template[s] for every ship change. The parent template would substitute the numbered parameters into the generic unnumbered parameters used in the generic sub-template(s). In fact a single sub-template would look a lot like the current Infobox, except with the ability to default hide everything. I think Toms "Hide" parameter should be eliminated with suitable use of logic in the sub template. Tom'sWwood's use of different sub templates for the different blocks has the advantage of breaking the code up into smaller modules, a plus for maintenance. But the decision to include a block could be make with logic in the parent template. I'm pretty sure we could keep backward compatability that way. I'll try to put together a mock up of this is in the next day or two, but I'm not sure what the rush is. --
J Clear
16:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Alright, I'm going to move my template into the Template space in the next day or two and start using it. J Clear said above, "I'm not sure what the rush is," but this discussion has been going on for two months with nothing really happening. I think the separate template solution solves everything I wanted it to solve, so I'm going to start using it. TomTheHand 15:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I've moved the template to the Template space and posted it at our page of tables. The first ship I used it on was USS Bang (SS-385), which I think has benefitted nicely from it. TomTheHand 20:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
If you've put links to Navsource for a Gator ship, they will porbably break in 2007. See message about a site reorg here http://www.navsource.org/archives/phibidx.htm. -- J Clear 16:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
This caught me by surprise, so I wanted to give everyone else in the project a heads-up as we often use these templates in our articles. The visual formatting in the various dablink templates was recently moved to CSS. If you have not bypassed your cache, dablinks like {{ redirect}} at the top of Royal Australian Navy or {{ Otheruses1}} at the top of Royal Navy will appear to have lost their indent and italic text. See Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Disambig link formatting for more details. -- Kralizec! ( talk) 00:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Just to inform that a new maritime history project has started for Australia - Wikipedia:WikiProject Australian maritime history - SatuSuro 14:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)