This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I see a section on the notability guidelines of actors, but what's the guidelines on notability of films/videos? I thought it was something like award nominations. Right?-- AvatarMN ( talk) 01:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone know the status of http://www.avneurope.com/ ? It appears to be off-line and I was wondering if the website was gone forever and so should be removed from Useful links. Ash ( talk) 12:10, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I note that user:Epbr123 has been quick to purge gayporntimes.com from Useful links ( diff). Does anyone have real objections to this site being included on the list here? See:
Thanks Ash ( talk) 12:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Epbr123 ( talk · contribs)'s most recent changes to this page ( diff) are not strictly factual. Though self published sources are not normally used to support facts about the subject of a biographical article, suitable sources (as per WP:SPS) can be used for any information a person publishes about themselves (on their official website/blog, for example) and for subsidiary non-controversial facts not relating to personal information such as gayporntimes.com reporting that an actor has been nominated for an award or has been signed up by a production studio. The current guidance added by Epbr123 is one-sided and unhelpful, apparently to support their hard-line views on BLPs which are not strictly supported by consensus. Ash ( talk) 14:31, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
1. the material is not unduly self-serving; 2. it does not involve claims about third parties; 3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; 4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; 5. the article is not based primarily on such sources."
I have reverted all recent substantial changes to the sources list on the Project page. All potentially contentious changes to this page need to be done by group consensus. The current war on List of male performers in gay porn films and has spilled out onto ANIs, DRV, RSN, talk pages, and now the Project page shows a deep divide in the project. I feel drained by the constant bickering and propose that guidelines be put forth for behavior during group participation. - Stillwaterising ( talk) 15:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
This page documents an English Wikipedia
WikiProject. Editors should generally follow it, though
exceptions may apply. Substantive edits to this page should reflect
consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the
talk page. |
Existing template is {{project|WP:PORN|WP:PORNO|WP:XXX|WP:PORNPROJECT|WP:P*|WP:WPPORN|WP:PORNSTARS|WP:Porn}} My attempt to adapt this template by adding a custom statement has failed. It seems that this template could be modified to accommodate this, but for now we can put the statement Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page. in bold at the top of the page. - Stillwaterising ( talk) 22:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I've adapted the current ombox for to be substituted for project. I didn't code the shortcut or portal part properly, perhaps somebody can help with it: - Stillwaterising ( talk) 22:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
This is a
WikiProject, a collaboration area and open group of editors dedicated to improving Wikipedia's coverage of Pornography. Any substantive edit to this page should reflect
consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the
talk page. Please see the Guide to WikiProjects and the Directory of WikiProjects for more information. |
The reliability of this source was discussed one time on RSN ( Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_22#Reliable sources for porn star articles) and although only one opinion was entered it did indicate that this was a reliable source. - Stillwaterising ( talk) 16:28, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Since the RFC decided that being a Playmate isn't notable, I've started a list of Playmates of 2010. Please let me know what you think, make corrections and such. I'd like to use this as a template for all other years. Dismas| (talk) 22:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm trying to find a list or category to find who is living or dead but not finding it. Is there a way to search for this or does some kind of list or category need to be created (or is already in place)? - Stillwaterising ( talk) 04:04, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually
CATSCAN can do it. Try
this search looking for gay pornstars with a sub-category search on
category:20th-century deaths. It produces quite a neat list of 17 dead actors. Of course, this does not give those for whom the year of death is missing, try
this search which uses
category:dead people more widely and provides 2 4 more matches. There are some more to be found but the sub-cats of ‹The
template
Cat is being
considered for merging.›
Category:21st-century deaths have not been applied consistently.
Ash (
talk)
13:31, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects provides a list, updated daily, of unreferenced living people articles ( BLPs) related to your project. There has been a lot of discussion recently about deleting these unreferenced articles, so it is important that these articles are referenced.
The unreferenced articles related to your project can be found at >>> Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography/Archive 5/Unreferenced BLPs<<<
If you do not want this wikiproject to participate, please add your project name to this list.
Thank you.
Several editors have issue with the current guidelines, specifically criteria 1, on intepretation of "well known" again. The discussion is at the talk page of WP:BIO. Morbidthoughts ( talk) 15:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Okay folks, I have a radical proposal to put forth, and I want to make it here as opposed to at WP:BIO as I think those who are deal with the topic the most should have first crack at feedback. My proposal is this: kill PORNBIO as a separate set of criteria.
Why? Much of PORNBIO originally stated has either been rejected by the larger community (e.g., Playmates & Pets being notable of articles by themselves), or have been adopted by the larger BIO statement (e.g., the language PORNBIO originally had regarding Google hits not being valid is now part of the larger BIO statement).
So what's left for criteria right now?
So with a bit of change in our thinking, we can probably remove PORNBIO as a criteria and not see a sudden mass disappearance of articles from Wikipedia.
Thoughts folks? Tabercil ( talk) 19:30, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Just deprodded Hawaii Vice - how is a series of eight pix directed by Ron Jeremy starring Kascha Papillon not be included? And we should have one on Kascha too, here's a resource I found to nail her belonging:
"The porno chicks (including Kascha) went to bed early, read books, and were the only ones to have breakfast with me in the morning and were ready to go for work. Porno for them was just a business.
...
Kascha was hot. If you're analyzing porno chicks, a lot of them come from the Midwest. They usually come from a religious background. Kascha had a master's degree in classical piano. She met her boyfriend-husband [Papillon] and she was going to change the porno industry by just sleeping with her husband, even though he didn't share that same philosophy. The first time I interviewed Kascha, we had a ground floor office with street parking. The first time she walked from the car to the front door, you'd hear nothing but cars screeching and coming to a halt. She was drop dead gorgeous. She had a body that was unbelievable. She was Tahitian looking, blonde hair. She was the most down to earth girl you've met. She was friendly. She offered to babysit my kids. She was really normal and most porno girls were like that. She just wanted to be a legit actress."
--
Eric Louzel in
Luke Ford, The Producers: Profiles in Frustration, 2004, page 211</ref>}} —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
166.137.8.7 (
talk)
22:18, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
This is an area not really covered in the articles so I had begun to add a couple of links to the source AWMDB which tracks the performances of performers on adult websites. These ended up getting removed so I'm seeking the opininon of others before I re-add them only for them to be deleted.
As it stands there are virtually no sources for this information. EuroBabeIndex lists websites for Eastern European performers but there is no solid information on the scenes and as far as I know there is only AWMDB that is a fairly up-to-date source for world-wide performers (North & South American, East & Western European, Australian etc). As with sources such as IAFD and EBI this source tends to be missing parts due to the nature of a constant flow of new content, in the case of web-content this is multiplied due to how many sites that release new content each day.
Anyway I thought I'd get a wider perspective onto whether we think this should be included in the external links as a source of info not yet covered. I don't think it should be included in the main article body since it's changing so regularly but as an external link source similar to the links to IAFD, EBI, AFD I think it's information that isn't provided anywhere else so would be useful.
I figured I would include a few links to show what kind of information the site provides using Gianna Michaels as an example...
A list of adult websites the performer appears on http://www.awmdb.com/stars/581/Gianna_Michaels.html
A break down of scenes within a website that the performer appears on, who with and what the scene contains... http://www.awmdb.com/stars/581/38/
It also provides a list of who the performer stars alongside and on which sites but this seems to be served via Ajax so there's no direct link for that one.
It also lists every performer that has performed on a site http://www.awmdb.com/sites/183/Naughty_Bookworms.html
I think this would be a good additional source of info to be included in the external links at the bottom of an article. It provides information that cannot be found on any of the other sources (IAFD, IMDB, EBI etc) and covers a very wide range of performers from across the globe rather than a select few (i.e. EBI with Eastern European performers) so I think it's worth including in some form. It would be good to hear back what peoples thoughts are and whether they know of any additional or better sources for this information as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NathyWashington ( talk • contribs) 11:21, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I opened a discussion thread at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#WikiProject Pornography tag as a BLP issue, itself. Could some members of this wikiproject consider the issue raised there, and comment? Thanks, -- doncram ( talk) 19:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I have spent the last few weeks trying to author a proposed guideline on Commons that has the following objectives:
The response so far has been overwhelmingly negative. So far I've been blocked (for edit warring) for twice reverting some section blanking, received numerous threats, and been threatened to never use the word vandalism ever again to describe removal of content (from an admin). The proposal has been split into the subpage Commons:Commons:Sexual content/April 2010 but the same problems are starting again. Ironically I've been labeled a Americo-centric neo-puritanical prude, which is pretty laughable to those who know me here. Anyway, any and all help would be greatly appreciated in developing this very important guideline. - Stillwaterising ( talk) 16:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
The above policy has been rewritten unilaterally by Jimmy Wales. Apparently this is anticipation of policy that will be announced by the Wikimedia Foundation in the next few days designed to make the Wiki projects more inclusive of and acceptable to societies that aren't in to Western liberalism. Alongside this Wales has urged admins to speedily delete "pornography" from the Commons, guaranteeing immunity for those admins considered to be abusing their power and threatening to block any who reverse the deletions. This policy is supposed to include material currently in use, though admins seem to be backing off here in the face of outrage (but not from Jimbo!). One picture from the Portal:Sexuality/Featured picture/Archive was deleted (but restored by the same admin) it is File:Kaalos g locked-in.jpg (worth checking if you want to see what "pornography" might mean). Discussions are happening at the Commons:Village pump and at Commons:User talk:Jimbo Wales, though they seem academic as the decisions have supposedly already been taken. As the Wikimedia Commons is our image library this affects any and all media we use. -- Simon Speed ( talk) 23:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Please see Commons:News regarding the sexual content purge. -- Simon Speed ( talk) 11:00, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
The WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons (UBLPs) aims to reduce the number of unreferenced biographical articles to under 30,000 by June 1, primarily by enabling WikiProjects to easily identify UBLP articles in their project's scope. There were over 52,000 unreferenced BLPs in January 2010 and this has been reduced to 32,665 as of May 16. A bot is now running daily to compile a list of all articles that are in both Category:All unreferenced BLPs and have been tagged by a WikiProject. Note that the bot does NOT place unreferenced tags or assign articles to projects - this has been done by others previously - it just compiles a list.
Your Project's list can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography/Unreferenced BLPs. As of May 17 you have approximately 31 articles to be referenced, a 22.5% reduction from last week. Great work! The list of all other WikiProject UBLPs can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons/WikiProjects.
Your assistance in reviewing and referencing these articles is greatly appreciated. If you have any questions, please don't hestitate to ask either at WT:URBLP or at my talk page. Thanks, The-Pope ( talk) 17:34, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Now that we have all these "List of Playboy Playmates of XXXX" articles, how should we go about keeping them from being orphans?
I propose that we change all the links at the bottom of the "Playmates of XXXX" templates that are at the bottom of every Playmate's article so that the years go to that year's list. Here's {{ Playmates of 2010}} as an example of the template that I'm referring to. If we go ahead with this, I think I'd put in a bot request for it since I don't think anyone wants to change 50+ links in 50+ templates by hand.
So, what say you? Dismas| (talk) 08:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
There's been a debate brewing since Monday about an image that has been inserted into this article, File:Futanari.png. It portrays two hermarphoditic mangia characters engaged in mutual-masterbation. The character on the left has the appearences of being in his/her early teens and the character on the right is portrayed as an adult. I have twice removed the image and have been warned not to remove the image again at risk of being blocked. I have also started a discussion on AN/I that has been pretty much just been an attack on myself. I feel that this image is illegal and a violation of . I also feel that is has the potential of causing great harm to the project and as well possible legal trouble. I would appreciate more eyes on this. Thanks. - Stillwaterising ( talk) 12:40, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
<- Actually, I agree with you here Kenny. In fact I think that that the rules here as far as inclusion/exclusion, style, guidelines, etc., etc., etc. should be made plain and clear, and not based upon the personal opinion of groups of editors ("consensus" as we know it). This goes double when we're talking about legal matters. Jimbo, or the foundation, or whoever the hell is in charge here should lay out these things and leave us editors and contributors to edit and contribute, and not to waste an obscene amount of time arguing. To leave legal matters like this up to the personal opinion/original research/bias of individual editors (as are the other rules), is beyond absurd... Dekkappai ( talk) 05:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi
I've just answered a {{
db-attack}}
request to delete
Jesse Starr (which I did, as it was unreferenced and I erred on the side of caution). However... a few minutes googling later and I realise that Mr. Starr does exist, and possibly is notable. I'm unfamiliar with notability requirements for this area, and I'm even less familiar with good sources, so would some kindly soul take pity on me and volunteer to "adopt-a-deleted-article"? If someone can provide a few good sources I'll cheerfully restore the article for improvement.
Cheers, TFOWR 20:32, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Can someone look at Wolfowitz's campaign of deleting my edits to the articla of Golden Age star Kascha Papillon? He's calling me a vandal for restoring IMDB links which he calls spam, and for including an excerpt from a Luke Ford interview with director Eric Louzel under some claim that anything from Ford is barred as a source. I don't get it, someone please help me understand why adding sources and info makes me a vandal. UPCDAYZ ( talk) 04:05, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Since this was brought up at one of the Playboy related articles, I thought I'd mention this here as well just so that my comments are easier to find and better available for the people working on this WikiProject:
Looking at articles about Japanese pornographic actors and actresses I have a few questions and will start with the most simple point: filmographies. Here at WP:PORN it is said that filmographies should be limited to 6 entries + additional movies if they are especially important for some reason. I think that is a good rule. Now if you look at articles about Japanese actresses there are in nearly every article many more. Actually often 70-80% of the total article is just a big list of movies with about 60 and in some cases over 100 entries. Here are some examples: Riko_Tachibana, Akiho_Yoshizawa and Yua_Aida. Ironically in some cases these big lists are even labeled as "selected filmography" and simply ignoring the very basic result of Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Filmography. As if this is not enough these lists are not simply lists of movies but also contain information about the selling company, available media types, order numbers and rentable status. Only the price is missing to make it a perfect sales list. I can understand that there are difficulties to find a unified format but is this ok? But it doesn't end here. There are articles where large parts of the remaining non-list article body consist of descriptions of movies including the scene backgrounds, outfit of the subject and the performed sexual activies in more or less detail and often in tone as beeing a big station of the subjects career.
In a discussion an editor confronted with issue of the big lists replied: "Wikiproject Pornography's filmography statement is in direct opposition to standard Wikipedia policy which states complete lists of works are encouraged". I've searched a lot meanwhile, read all related guides and policies I could find but I didn't see a clear pro nor contra to this statement. Actually the related policy WP:BLP says nothing about the content which should be included and how much of it as it has other priorities. Wikipedia:ACTOR#Filmography_tables and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(lists_of_works) give no limits but only style recommendations. I personally would say that points of WP:NOT and WP:FAN could be applied here in many cases.
As I don't want to look like the evil disruptive guy who just hates porn and also think that this is a basic problem affecting most of the articles about Japanese pornographic actresses, I want to learn what is consensus in this point. I would tend to think that it might be a good idea to have all works of say Shakespeare listed on Wikipedia and it's probably also ok to have rather complete list of blockbusters where Bruce_Willis had a leading role - but for a porn star? Not to mention that the porn movies in the case to discuss are completely unknown outside of Japan and also within Japan mostly didn't receive much press coverage (if even any). Furthermore also "compilations" are listed with scenes collected from different movies. All this with the background that the subject only in few movies really had clearly the "leading role" and in contrast to writers also didn't create the actual "work".
Either way it would be ok for me but it can not be that on articles of non-Janpanese actresses and actors all current guidelines and policies are VERY strictly applied while otherwise apparently nearly anything can be added freely. There are more issues I see there regarding WP:POORSRC and the already mentioned WP:FAN. But let's start with the filmographies. Testales ( talk) 21:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
First of all let me say that it was not my intention to offend anybody here, so there is no point to use scatology here. In fact I have high respect for anybody who regulary contributes. But if there are guidelines and policies they should be applied to any content of the same category EQUALLY. When I used the term "sales list" I just described what it looks like to me, I see no offence here and I have also named the details that cause this effect and which I have not seen yet in any other BLP filmographies so far. I also do not assume bad faith - why would I? If my note leads to the impression that I accuse anybody to have purposely violated guidelines, that was not what I meant and maybe I should have written this better. But it is my impression that there is a clear difference in how strict Japanese and non-Japanese pornographic articles are treated regarding guidelines and policies which I find rather unsatisfying. It is hardly understandable that a specific type of information is allowed at one place but not at another place with a smiliar topic. Statements like "That the length of this article is more than other articles only means that it has been worked on more than those others" do not make it better.
So here is an example what happens to a non-Japanese article when data in question gets added. So it's kinda ridiculous (to say it nicely) to basically state that other articles are just small because nobody contributes. Especially when the current tolerance level until the deletion because of not NPOV, beeing promotional and fancruft is so low while the same types of details can also be found on many Japanese actor articles and this even mostly quoted from or based on sources who clearly have the intention to sell or promote related products and therefore are actually no WP:RS.
WP:FAN says: "The use of the term implies that an editor does not regard the material in question as encyclopedic, either because the entire topic is unknown outside fan circles, or because too much detail is present that will bore, distract or confuse a non-fan, when its exclusion would not significantly harm the factual coverage as a whole."
In my opinion that is the case for a lot of content in the articles in question Naho Ozawa is a good example here. By saying "not known outside of Japan" I did not say anything about the notabilty of the subject which is especially with the given example another topic (just on a sidenote for now: I wonder if any Japanese actor article has ever been challenged for notability in a AfD so far). What I wanted to point at is that very likely only true fans from Japan would be interessted in the very detail that is often given in the articles. It is exactly like the quote above from WP:FAN says, the exclusion of what an actor wore, what the setting was and which sexual activies were performed (this for several movies!) would not significantly harm the factual coverage as a whole. By the way I recently even made sure that there is no basic restriction for adding content that is only of interesst in one country. So why would argue against that here? I also took the issue that I see with filmographies to the related project page and after trying to find some information myself. So please let's stick to the treatment of filmographies possibly including the description of movies within the article itself for pornographic articles for now. Testales ( talk) 14:27, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Let's (edit conflict) check a "Featured list" filmography: Vittorio Storaro filmography. Where is the reliable source with the complete filmography on which this is based? Allmovie appears to be the only source with a straight filmography on him. Just at first glance we see Attack of the Normans (1962) is not on Allmovie's filmography. I presume it's listed at another source, though it is not cited in the film's entry on our filmography. Now, according to your reasoning Allmovie is now invalid as a source for the filmography, because it is not "complete", and the list is OR / SYNTH. So, if there's not more going on here than what is being openly spoken, why should the sourcing of the filmography to a Japanese adult film actress be held to a higher standard than a Featured list on an internationally-renowned cinematographer? Dekkappai ( talk) 19:06, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
For someone who seems to dislike being misquoted, I have to point out to the former poster that he has quoted himself as saying "some of these filmographies are not in themselves sourced" but when asked to specify which filmographies are unsourced as per the quotation, again quotes himself as saying "I mention an example of the problems this might cause at Talk:Rinako Hirasawa" and refers to that talk page. And amazingly enough nowhere on that page is there mention of filmographies that "are not in themselves sourced" but only concern about "inconsistent incomplete sources" (whatever they are, what's a consistent incomplete source and how do you tell the difference). So I have to ask - Are you misquoting yourself??? :) Cherryblossom1982 ( talk) 22:02, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
A user who is apparently the subject of this article (and I have no reason to doubt her claims) would like some help getting the page up to date with more accurate info. I'm trying to help her as best I can but the project is outside my usual scope in terms of topic and I don't know of any good sources for actors from the time she worked (late 80s - early 90s) actively in the industry. Obviously, WP:COI is an issue and we're hoping to work in such a way that this isn't a problem. You can see the relevant details in the history of the article itself, on the article talk page, and a bit on the user talk page here. Thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide. Millahnna (mouse) talk 21:42, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
As this has gotten a bit lenghty already, I will try to summarize it a bit.
The project page states with its very first point:
"This project covers various topics related to the subject of pornography, such as: (...) Pornographic actors, actresses and models, as well as related infobox templates. Additionally, the project is to implement a standard means of procuring information on pornographic actors, as well as to address what is proper for an encyclopedic article on porn stars".
But even for the mere filmography there appears to be no consensus although this topic has already been discussed several times:
Pro and Contra for comprehensive filmographies in scope of Wikipedia guidelines and policies
Pro:
Manual of Style (list of works) (guideline)
"Complete lists of works, appropriately sourced to reliable scholarship (WP:V), are encouraged, particularly when such lists are not already freely available on the internet." (And no public DB is complete for pornographic movies or even nearly complete for every actor.)
Possibly Pro:
WP:NOTCENSORED (policy) and more specifically Wikipedia:Sexual_content (essay). I mention it here only because one discussion started based on this.
Contra:
WP:NOTDIRECTORY (policy)
This describes that "directories" and "sales catalogs" are not wanted. So I think matches the question much better than WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Strictly seen an article listing 100 movies and has a little BLP text on top still remains a directory or given - enough detail, even a sales catalog.
WP:FAN (essay) - But this is actually only an eassay and is not (and can not be) very detailed.
Not applicable:
WP:INDISCRIMINATE (policy)
This part of WP:NOT bascially describes what material does not deserve an own article but says nothing about the content of articles that can be included additionally. Furthermore nothing comparable to an appended list of movies is mentioned. It starts with "As explained in the policy introduction, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia. Wikipedia articles should not be: " and then "Plot-only description of fictional works", "Lyrics databases", "Excessive listing of statistics", "News reports", "Who's who" and "FAQs" are listed. None of this can be applied to articles containing a large filmography. The point was nevertheless brought up many times in the discussions and is even still listed as justification the filmography restriction on the project page.
Pro and Contra in discussions
PRO:
Although I think the last point goes in the direction of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and should be not that relevant.
CONTRA:
I hope I didn't miss a major argument of either side.
Current Situation
In scope of "WikiProject Pornography" many articles about Japanese actors seem to ingore the current filmography restriction as defined on the project main page. There may be other articles too but I only know about the Jenna Jameson filmography. To my subjective impression most of the editors in the discussion would prefer the 6-rule as it is. But in any way the point should either be removed from the porject page if there is no consensus or be extended to reflect a consensus that also ensures that this discussion will not come up over and over again.
Editor USER:Tim1965 made a good and structured suggestion in one of the last discussions how this problem can be solved and a compromise could look like. Unfortunately it remained uncommented. If this is not acceptable maybe this question should be taken to a "higher instance". Testales ( talk) 21:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Additional note
Generally when looking at pornographic movies it should be taken into account that there are a few points in matters of "quality" which are different from mainstream movies:
Testales ( talk) 08:21, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
A Solution?
Several days have past without any further responses and I also have the impression of some tiredness to discuss this over and over again without reaching a clear consensus. Therefore I suggest the two following options for a "final" answer to the question whether comprehensive filmgraphies of pornographic actors should be permitted or not:
If there are no objections against that procedure and no fundamentally new input, preferably from other than the few the editors who already posted their opinion, and also the first point is not accepted, I would start the RfC in 3 or 4 days as the bot will otherwise simply archive the problem once again. I think all relevant arguments were already given, many times mostly, and should be rather completely listed above.
Testales ( talk) 10:29, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
There's no need for an RfC, which will just drag this discussion out further, create more drama and waste more time. It's simple: This project has created a POV/Biased criterion which is in opposition to a general one accepted throughout Wikipedia. Complete works of lists are encouraged. WP-wide consensus on this has long been established. Dekkappai ( talk) 14:00, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
I've been following this conversation since I saw it when I posted my request for help a few days ago. I don't see what the big deal is with including more than six − be it 20, 50, 100, or all − of an actor's movies. I've seen plenty of actors over in WP:FILM and WP:TV who have some of their most inane and unnotable credits (bringing their lists to well over six) listed in my years of reading and editing as an IP. And that hasn't changed since I got off my lazy butt and registered. So why should it be any different for the adult movie folks? Either those TV and "straight" movie actors pages are wrong (possible, of course) or some flexibility would seem to be needed for this project. I don't know if the opinion of someone outside the project really matters but I thought I'd throw it out there that this person who doesn't really know a lot about porn doesn't see the big deal. Millahnna (mouse) talk 14:21, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
My opinion is that full filmographies should only be encouraged if a reasonably-comprehensive, English-language filmography isn't available elsewhere online. IAFD will always do a better job than Wikipedia can at maintaining reliable, up-to-date filmographies of our hundreds of Western performers. I do though disagree with the six-movie rule due to POV and OR concerns; articles should either have a full filmographies or none at all. Epbr123 ( talk) 15:26, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
The anti-pornography movement article is in a terrible state at the moment: the article almost entirely concentrates on the Dworkin/MacKinnon strand of 1970s feminist anti-pornography thinking, and has substantially removed coverage of all other aspects of anti-pornography campaigning, whether feminist or not. See Talk:Anti-pornography_movement#Omission_of_earlier_anti-pornography_movements for more on this. -- The Anome ( talk) 16:06, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Okay, thanks to the edit warring over images in the Japanese article, I notice this section is cited to a lot in justifying that the image can be used. This part was written sometime in 2007. The fair use or non-free content policies and guidelines on wikipedia have gotten a lot stricter over the years and we need to re-review this section and rewrite to comply with WP:NFC (a guideline) and WP:NFCC (a policy). If there are any conflict between the two, which I see there's a big whopper with regards of how free content can be created, the policy trumps the guidelines. Morbidthoughts ( talk) 07:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
It's pretty pointless to discuss this here. I will bring that up to the policy talk page. Epbr123 even confirmed my guessing regarding the relation between WP:NFCC and WP:NFC, one beeing more general and the other trying to be more specfic. I also see no contradiction here. Therefore the removing of images is at least for my first 3 reverts clearly against that policy. It's also far beyond my understanding how keeping of a promotional image of icon size that has been there for years can be disruptive as claimed by Kww. And sorry, even with the best will, I completely fail to assume good faith here in HWs actions. I am still new here, so I may not know if there is a common practice, a unwritten rule so to say, regarding such cases but obvioulsy this must be discussed on the policy page and with a more authoritative result. It's just funny if then somebody writes at ANI that policies are not law, tells about consensus and discussion - haha, even guidelines are usally treated as policy and therefore ultimately law, especially when it comes to deletion. That's the difference between theory and reality. Very disappointing. Just see this case, come on we are talking he about a few crappy images with little to no chance that there will ever somebody come and demand to remove them because they are his property. Endless discussions of many A4 pages are required here just because some people obviously hate to have porn topics on Wikipedia. I can understand their point and I even agree to it to some degree. But it's not the way to go, to kill stuff through the backdoor by over strictly interpreting policies and weighting every single word just to have something deleted. Wikipedia would only have to declare itself as beeing purely educational and the problem would be solved. Btw. on commons is also only educational material allowed. An educational Wikpedia would only keep articles about porn start that have appeared in TV or genereally mainstream media. It would also remove any pornographic movies that have not had any presence in mainstream media. Furthermore the wole entertainment area would be affected, so no excessive description of single episodes of series and so on. But as long as there is no BIG consensus that Wikipedia is focussed that way certain people should accept the presence of material that the don't want to see in an encyclopedia instead of beeing incivil and deleting on sight. But currently a lot of articles describing the orginal spirit of Wikipedia are pointless now. So for example if I can easily delete something why should I even try to improve it first? It is my very impression that certain problems that have got publicity especially regarding BLP and porn are still reckless (ab-)used as general justification for a extreme deletion attitude. Testales ( talk) 20:29, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Should the Playboy Playmate infobox include a "natural bust" field? Please see the discussion here. Thanks, Dismas| (talk) 05:46, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Epbr123, an Admin in this project who claims to be one of the chief architects of "notability" criteria as defined here, is making "Delete" votes at five current AfDs on Japanese Pink films which do pass those criteria. Though these are films, rather than BLPs, all of them were awarded at the Pink Grand Prix, the major award in the genre-- some of them garnering than one award. They also pass WP:NOTFILM due to being notable (award-winning) films in the filmographies of notable personnel. The AfDs are:
Though he has apparently created dozens of less reliably-sourced sub-stubs on less-notable US hardcore porn subjects which pass criteria he claims to have created, Epbr123 has justified his Delete votes with his personal opinion that there are "too many" such articles, a justification which indicates he has tainted other AfDs under the watch of this project, and the notability guidelines themselves, with his own personal bias of an artificial limit to the coverage of notable subjects. This should be of concern to all members at this project, as it compromises NPOV, OR, and makes coverage here clearly biased. Dekkappai ( talk) 17:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
I've been removing the "Pornographic film" categories from Pink film articles because I see that Russ Meyer's films are not categorized this way. The Pink films are in the same style as his. "Pink film" is already a category, and redundant or inappropriate to the "Pornographic film" categories depending on your definitions. Another editor has reverted one of these removals. Thoughts? Dekkappai ( talk) 23:45, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Please see my addition at the top of the "Usefull links" section of the main project page. And please act upon it. If you want to improve a porn-related page, look it up on Google Books and add referenced information. It's as simple as that. If you look at our B and C-class articles, especially famous porn films and porn studios, you will see that over the course of a few weeks I managed to add a plethora of referenced info from google books. Imagine what we could achieve if we all did this. Willy turner ( talk) 21:45, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I stumbled about TMZ once again as it was cited by many other source including some that are usually regarded as "reliable". For example see this or more generally this. The New York Times had even a dedicated article about it. I think that's quite a lot of reputation and I just saw that there is also a Wikipedia article. I have also read some WP:RSN discussions regarding this but the outcome is not very clear. It appears that it can be accepted for pure celebrity news especially when other RS quote TMZ. So what's the opinion here? Testales ( talk) 08:47, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Would winning an XBIZ Award consitute proof of notability? Is there a precedent here? Kenilworth Terrace ( talk) 18:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
For what it's worth, there is an adage in the porn industry which goes: "The XBIZ Awards is what the AVN Awards wishes it was". Glenn Francis ( talk) 23:20, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I see a section on the notability guidelines of actors, but what's the guidelines on notability of films/videos? I thought it was something like award nominations. Right?-- AvatarMN ( talk) 01:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone know the status of http://www.avneurope.com/ ? It appears to be off-line and I was wondering if the website was gone forever and so should be removed from Useful links. Ash ( talk) 12:10, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I note that user:Epbr123 has been quick to purge gayporntimes.com from Useful links ( diff). Does anyone have real objections to this site being included on the list here? See:
Thanks Ash ( talk) 12:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Epbr123 ( talk · contribs)'s most recent changes to this page ( diff) are not strictly factual. Though self published sources are not normally used to support facts about the subject of a biographical article, suitable sources (as per WP:SPS) can be used for any information a person publishes about themselves (on their official website/blog, for example) and for subsidiary non-controversial facts not relating to personal information such as gayporntimes.com reporting that an actor has been nominated for an award or has been signed up by a production studio. The current guidance added by Epbr123 is one-sided and unhelpful, apparently to support their hard-line views on BLPs which are not strictly supported by consensus. Ash ( talk) 14:31, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
1. the material is not unduly self-serving; 2. it does not involve claims about third parties; 3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; 4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; 5. the article is not based primarily on such sources."
I have reverted all recent substantial changes to the sources list on the Project page. All potentially contentious changes to this page need to be done by group consensus. The current war on List of male performers in gay porn films and has spilled out onto ANIs, DRV, RSN, talk pages, and now the Project page shows a deep divide in the project. I feel drained by the constant bickering and propose that guidelines be put forth for behavior during group participation. - Stillwaterising ( talk) 15:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
This page documents an English Wikipedia
WikiProject. Editors should generally follow it, though
exceptions may apply. Substantive edits to this page should reflect
consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the
talk page. |
Existing template is {{project|WP:PORN|WP:PORNO|WP:XXX|WP:PORNPROJECT|WP:P*|WP:WPPORN|WP:PORNSTARS|WP:Porn}} My attempt to adapt this template by adding a custom statement has failed. It seems that this template could be modified to accommodate this, but for now we can put the statement Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page. in bold at the top of the page. - Stillwaterising ( talk) 22:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I've adapted the current ombox for to be substituted for project. I didn't code the shortcut or portal part properly, perhaps somebody can help with it: - Stillwaterising ( talk) 22:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
This is a
WikiProject, a collaboration area and open group of editors dedicated to improving Wikipedia's coverage of Pornography. Any substantive edit to this page should reflect
consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the
talk page. Please see the Guide to WikiProjects and the Directory of WikiProjects for more information. |
The reliability of this source was discussed one time on RSN ( Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_22#Reliable sources for porn star articles) and although only one opinion was entered it did indicate that this was a reliable source. - Stillwaterising ( talk) 16:28, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Since the RFC decided that being a Playmate isn't notable, I've started a list of Playmates of 2010. Please let me know what you think, make corrections and such. I'd like to use this as a template for all other years. Dismas| (talk) 22:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm trying to find a list or category to find who is living or dead but not finding it. Is there a way to search for this or does some kind of list or category need to be created (or is already in place)? - Stillwaterising ( talk) 04:04, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually
CATSCAN can do it. Try
this search looking for gay pornstars with a sub-category search on
category:20th-century deaths. It produces quite a neat list of 17 dead actors. Of course, this does not give those for whom the year of death is missing, try
this search which uses
category:dead people more widely and provides 2 4 more matches. There are some more to be found but the sub-cats of ‹The
template
Cat is being
considered for merging.›
Category:21st-century deaths have not been applied consistently.
Ash (
talk)
13:31, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects provides a list, updated daily, of unreferenced living people articles ( BLPs) related to your project. There has been a lot of discussion recently about deleting these unreferenced articles, so it is important that these articles are referenced.
The unreferenced articles related to your project can be found at >>> Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography/Archive 5/Unreferenced BLPs<<<
If you do not want this wikiproject to participate, please add your project name to this list.
Thank you.
Several editors have issue with the current guidelines, specifically criteria 1, on intepretation of "well known" again. The discussion is at the talk page of WP:BIO. Morbidthoughts ( talk) 15:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Okay folks, I have a radical proposal to put forth, and I want to make it here as opposed to at WP:BIO as I think those who are deal with the topic the most should have first crack at feedback. My proposal is this: kill PORNBIO as a separate set of criteria.
Why? Much of PORNBIO originally stated has either been rejected by the larger community (e.g., Playmates & Pets being notable of articles by themselves), or have been adopted by the larger BIO statement (e.g., the language PORNBIO originally had regarding Google hits not being valid is now part of the larger BIO statement).
So what's left for criteria right now?
So with a bit of change in our thinking, we can probably remove PORNBIO as a criteria and not see a sudden mass disappearance of articles from Wikipedia.
Thoughts folks? Tabercil ( talk) 19:30, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Just deprodded Hawaii Vice - how is a series of eight pix directed by Ron Jeremy starring Kascha Papillon not be included? And we should have one on Kascha too, here's a resource I found to nail her belonging:
"The porno chicks (including Kascha) went to bed early, read books, and were the only ones to have breakfast with me in the morning and were ready to go for work. Porno for them was just a business.
...
Kascha was hot. If you're analyzing porno chicks, a lot of them come from the Midwest. They usually come from a religious background. Kascha had a master's degree in classical piano. She met her boyfriend-husband [Papillon] and she was going to change the porno industry by just sleeping with her husband, even though he didn't share that same philosophy. The first time I interviewed Kascha, we had a ground floor office with street parking. The first time she walked from the car to the front door, you'd hear nothing but cars screeching and coming to a halt. She was drop dead gorgeous. She had a body that was unbelievable. She was Tahitian looking, blonde hair. She was the most down to earth girl you've met. She was friendly. She offered to babysit my kids. She was really normal and most porno girls were like that. She just wanted to be a legit actress."
--
Eric Louzel in
Luke Ford, The Producers: Profiles in Frustration, 2004, page 211</ref>}} —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
166.137.8.7 (
talk)
22:18, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
This is an area not really covered in the articles so I had begun to add a couple of links to the source AWMDB which tracks the performances of performers on adult websites. These ended up getting removed so I'm seeking the opininon of others before I re-add them only for them to be deleted.
As it stands there are virtually no sources for this information. EuroBabeIndex lists websites for Eastern European performers but there is no solid information on the scenes and as far as I know there is only AWMDB that is a fairly up-to-date source for world-wide performers (North & South American, East & Western European, Australian etc). As with sources such as IAFD and EBI this source tends to be missing parts due to the nature of a constant flow of new content, in the case of web-content this is multiplied due to how many sites that release new content each day.
Anyway I thought I'd get a wider perspective onto whether we think this should be included in the external links as a source of info not yet covered. I don't think it should be included in the main article body since it's changing so regularly but as an external link source similar to the links to IAFD, EBI, AFD I think it's information that isn't provided anywhere else so would be useful.
I figured I would include a few links to show what kind of information the site provides using Gianna Michaels as an example...
A list of adult websites the performer appears on http://www.awmdb.com/stars/581/Gianna_Michaels.html
A break down of scenes within a website that the performer appears on, who with and what the scene contains... http://www.awmdb.com/stars/581/38/
It also provides a list of who the performer stars alongside and on which sites but this seems to be served via Ajax so there's no direct link for that one.
It also lists every performer that has performed on a site http://www.awmdb.com/sites/183/Naughty_Bookworms.html
I think this would be a good additional source of info to be included in the external links at the bottom of an article. It provides information that cannot be found on any of the other sources (IAFD, IMDB, EBI etc) and covers a very wide range of performers from across the globe rather than a select few (i.e. EBI with Eastern European performers) so I think it's worth including in some form. It would be good to hear back what peoples thoughts are and whether they know of any additional or better sources for this information as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NathyWashington ( talk • contribs) 11:21, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I opened a discussion thread at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#WikiProject Pornography tag as a BLP issue, itself. Could some members of this wikiproject consider the issue raised there, and comment? Thanks, -- doncram ( talk) 19:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I have spent the last few weeks trying to author a proposed guideline on Commons that has the following objectives:
The response so far has been overwhelmingly negative. So far I've been blocked (for edit warring) for twice reverting some section blanking, received numerous threats, and been threatened to never use the word vandalism ever again to describe removal of content (from an admin). The proposal has been split into the subpage Commons:Commons:Sexual content/April 2010 but the same problems are starting again. Ironically I've been labeled a Americo-centric neo-puritanical prude, which is pretty laughable to those who know me here. Anyway, any and all help would be greatly appreciated in developing this very important guideline. - Stillwaterising ( talk) 16:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
The above policy has been rewritten unilaterally by Jimmy Wales. Apparently this is anticipation of policy that will be announced by the Wikimedia Foundation in the next few days designed to make the Wiki projects more inclusive of and acceptable to societies that aren't in to Western liberalism. Alongside this Wales has urged admins to speedily delete "pornography" from the Commons, guaranteeing immunity for those admins considered to be abusing their power and threatening to block any who reverse the deletions. This policy is supposed to include material currently in use, though admins seem to be backing off here in the face of outrage (but not from Jimbo!). One picture from the Portal:Sexuality/Featured picture/Archive was deleted (but restored by the same admin) it is File:Kaalos g locked-in.jpg (worth checking if you want to see what "pornography" might mean). Discussions are happening at the Commons:Village pump and at Commons:User talk:Jimbo Wales, though they seem academic as the decisions have supposedly already been taken. As the Wikimedia Commons is our image library this affects any and all media we use. -- Simon Speed ( talk) 23:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Please see Commons:News regarding the sexual content purge. -- Simon Speed ( talk) 11:00, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
The WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons (UBLPs) aims to reduce the number of unreferenced biographical articles to under 30,000 by June 1, primarily by enabling WikiProjects to easily identify UBLP articles in their project's scope. There were over 52,000 unreferenced BLPs in January 2010 and this has been reduced to 32,665 as of May 16. A bot is now running daily to compile a list of all articles that are in both Category:All unreferenced BLPs and have been tagged by a WikiProject. Note that the bot does NOT place unreferenced tags or assign articles to projects - this has been done by others previously - it just compiles a list.
Your Project's list can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography/Unreferenced BLPs. As of May 17 you have approximately 31 articles to be referenced, a 22.5% reduction from last week. Great work! The list of all other WikiProject UBLPs can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons/WikiProjects.
Your assistance in reviewing and referencing these articles is greatly appreciated. If you have any questions, please don't hestitate to ask either at WT:URBLP or at my talk page. Thanks, The-Pope ( talk) 17:34, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Now that we have all these "List of Playboy Playmates of XXXX" articles, how should we go about keeping them from being orphans?
I propose that we change all the links at the bottom of the "Playmates of XXXX" templates that are at the bottom of every Playmate's article so that the years go to that year's list. Here's {{ Playmates of 2010}} as an example of the template that I'm referring to. If we go ahead with this, I think I'd put in a bot request for it since I don't think anyone wants to change 50+ links in 50+ templates by hand.
So, what say you? Dismas| (talk) 08:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
There's been a debate brewing since Monday about an image that has been inserted into this article, File:Futanari.png. It portrays two hermarphoditic mangia characters engaged in mutual-masterbation. The character on the left has the appearences of being in his/her early teens and the character on the right is portrayed as an adult. I have twice removed the image and have been warned not to remove the image again at risk of being blocked. I have also started a discussion on AN/I that has been pretty much just been an attack on myself. I feel that this image is illegal and a violation of . I also feel that is has the potential of causing great harm to the project and as well possible legal trouble. I would appreciate more eyes on this. Thanks. - Stillwaterising ( talk) 12:40, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
<- Actually, I agree with you here Kenny. In fact I think that that the rules here as far as inclusion/exclusion, style, guidelines, etc., etc., etc. should be made plain and clear, and not based upon the personal opinion of groups of editors ("consensus" as we know it). This goes double when we're talking about legal matters. Jimbo, or the foundation, or whoever the hell is in charge here should lay out these things and leave us editors and contributors to edit and contribute, and not to waste an obscene amount of time arguing. To leave legal matters like this up to the personal opinion/original research/bias of individual editors (as are the other rules), is beyond absurd... Dekkappai ( talk) 05:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi
I've just answered a {{
db-attack}}
request to delete
Jesse Starr (which I did, as it was unreferenced and I erred on the side of caution). However... a few minutes googling later and I realise that Mr. Starr does exist, and possibly is notable. I'm unfamiliar with notability requirements for this area, and I'm even less familiar with good sources, so would some kindly soul take pity on me and volunteer to "adopt-a-deleted-article"? If someone can provide a few good sources I'll cheerfully restore the article for improvement.
Cheers, TFOWR 20:32, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Can someone look at Wolfowitz's campaign of deleting my edits to the articla of Golden Age star Kascha Papillon? He's calling me a vandal for restoring IMDB links which he calls spam, and for including an excerpt from a Luke Ford interview with director Eric Louzel under some claim that anything from Ford is barred as a source. I don't get it, someone please help me understand why adding sources and info makes me a vandal. UPCDAYZ ( talk) 04:05, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Since this was brought up at one of the Playboy related articles, I thought I'd mention this here as well just so that my comments are easier to find and better available for the people working on this WikiProject:
Looking at articles about Japanese pornographic actors and actresses I have a few questions and will start with the most simple point: filmographies. Here at WP:PORN it is said that filmographies should be limited to 6 entries + additional movies if they are especially important for some reason. I think that is a good rule. Now if you look at articles about Japanese actresses there are in nearly every article many more. Actually often 70-80% of the total article is just a big list of movies with about 60 and in some cases over 100 entries. Here are some examples: Riko_Tachibana, Akiho_Yoshizawa and Yua_Aida. Ironically in some cases these big lists are even labeled as "selected filmography" and simply ignoring the very basic result of Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Filmography. As if this is not enough these lists are not simply lists of movies but also contain information about the selling company, available media types, order numbers and rentable status. Only the price is missing to make it a perfect sales list. I can understand that there are difficulties to find a unified format but is this ok? But it doesn't end here. There are articles where large parts of the remaining non-list article body consist of descriptions of movies including the scene backgrounds, outfit of the subject and the performed sexual activies in more or less detail and often in tone as beeing a big station of the subjects career.
In a discussion an editor confronted with issue of the big lists replied: "Wikiproject Pornography's filmography statement is in direct opposition to standard Wikipedia policy which states complete lists of works are encouraged". I've searched a lot meanwhile, read all related guides and policies I could find but I didn't see a clear pro nor contra to this statement. Actually the related policy WP:BLP says nothing about the content which should be included and how much of it as it has other priorities. Wikipedia:ACTOR#Filmography_tables and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(lists_of_works) give no limits but only style recommendations. I personally would say that points of WP:NOT and WP:FAN could be applied here in many cases.
As I don't want to look like the evil disruptive guy who just hates porn and also think that this is a basic problem affecting most of the articles about Japanese pornographic actresses, I want to learn what is consensus in this point. I would tend to think that it might be a good idea to have all works of say Shakespeare listed on Wikipedia and it's probably also ok to have rather complete list of blockbusters where Bruce_Willis had a leading role - but for a porn star? Not to mention that the porn movies in the case to discuss are completely unknown outside of Japan and also within Japan mostly didn't receive much press coverage (if even any). Furthermore also "compilations" are listed with scenes collected from different movies. All this with the background that the subject only in few movies really had clearly the "leading role" and in contrast to writers also didn't create the actual "work".
Either way it would be ok for me but it can not be that on articles of non-Janpanese actresses and actors all current guidelines and policies are VERY strictly applied while otherwise apparently nearly anything can be added freely. There are more issues I see there regarding WP:POORSRC and the already mentioned WP:FAN. But let's start with the filmographies. Testales ( talk) 21:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
First of all let me say that it was not my intention to offend anybody here, so there is no point to use scatology here. In fact I have high respect for anybody who regulary contributes. But if there are guidelines and policies they should be applied to any content of the same category EQUALLY. When I used the term "sales list" I just described what it looks like to me, I see no offence here and I have also named the details that cause this effect and which I have not seen yet in any other BLP filmographies so far. I also do not assume bad faith - why would I? If my note leads to the impression that I accuse anybody to have purposely violated guidelines, that was not what I meant and maybe I should have written this better. But it is my impression that there is a clear difference in how strict Japanese and non-Japanese pornographic articles are treated regarding guidelines and policies which I find rather unsatisfying. It is hardly understandable that a specific type of information is allowed at one place but not at another place with a smiliar topic. Statements like "That the length of this article is more than other articles only means that it has been worked on more than those others" do not make it better.
So here is an example what happens to a non-Japanese article when data in question gets added. So it's kinda ridiculous (to say it nicely) to basically state that other articles are just small because nobody contributes. Especially when the current tolerance level until the deletion because of not NPOV, beeing promotional and fancruft is so low while the same types of details can also be found on many Japanese actor articles and this even mostly quoted from or based on sources who clearly have the intention to sell or promote related products and therefore are actually no WP:RS.
WP:FAN says: "The use of the term implies that an editor does not regard the material in question as encyclopedic, either because the entire topic is unknown outside fan circles, or because too much detail is present that will bore, distract or confuse a non-fan, when its exclusion would not significantly harm the factual coverage as a whole."
In my opinion that is the case for a lot of content in the articles in question Naho Ozawa is a good example here. By saying "not known outside of Japan" I did not say anything about the notabilty of the subject which is especially with the given example another topic (just on a sidenote for now: I wonder if any Japanese actor article has ever been challenged for notability in a AfD so far). What I wanted to point at is that very likely only true fans from Japan would be interessted in the very detail that is often given in the articles. It is exactly like the quote above from WP:FAN says, the exclusion of what an actor wore, what the setting was and which sexual activies were performed (this for several movies!) would not significantly harm the factual coverage as a whole. By the way I recently even made sure that there is no basic restriction for adding content that is only of interesst in one country. So why would argue against that here? I also took the issue that I see with filmographies to the related project page and after trying to find some information myself. So please let's stick to the treatment of filmographies possibly including the description of movies within the article itself for pornographic articles for now. Testales ( talk) 14:27, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Let's (edit conflict) check a "Featured list" filmography: Vittorio Storaro filmography. Where is the reliable source with the complete filmography on which this is based? Allmovie appears to be the only source with a straight filmography on him. Just at first glance we see Attack of the Normans (1962) is not on Allmovie's filmography. I presume it's listed at another source, though it is not cited in the film's entry on our filmography. Now, according to your reasoning Allmovie is now invalid as a source for the filmography, because it is not "complete", and the list is OR / SYNTH. So, if there's not more going on here than what is being openly spoken, why should the sourcing of the filmography to a Japanese adult film actress be held to a higher standard than a Featured list on an internationally-renowned cinematographer? Dekkappai ( talk) 19:06, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
For someone who seems to dislike being misquoted, I have to point out to the former poster that he has quoted himself as saying "some of these filmographies are not in themselves sourced" but when asked to specify which filmographies are unsourced as per the quotation, again quotes himself as saying "I mention an example of the problems this might cause at Talk:Rinako Hirasawa" and refers to that talk page. And amazingly enough nowhere on that page is there mention of filmographies that "are not in themselves sourced" but only concern about "inconsistent incomplete sources" (whatever they are, what's a consistent incomplete source and how do you tell the difference). So I have to ask - Are you misquoting yourself??? :) Cherryblossom1982 ( talk) 22:02, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
A user who is apparently the subject of this article (and I have no reason to doubt her claims) would like some help getting the page up to date with more accurate info. I'm trying to help her as best I can but the project is outside my usual scope in terms of topic and I don't know of any good sources for actors from the time she worked (late 80s - early 90s) actively in the industry. Obviously, WP:COI is an issue and we're hoping to work in such a way that this isn't a problem. You can see the relevant details in the history of the article itself, on the article talk page, and a bit on the user talk page here. Thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide. Millahnna (mouse) talk 21:42, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
As this has gotten a bit lenghty already, I will try to summarize it a bit.
The project page states with its very first point:
"This project covers various topics related to the subject of pornography, such as: (...) Pornographic actors, actresses and models, as well as related infobox templates. Additionally, the project is to implement a standard means of procuring information on pornographic actors, as well as to address what is proper for an encyclopedic article on porn stars".
But even for the mere filmography there appears to be no consensus although this topic has already been discussed several times:
Pro and Contra for comprehensive filmographies in scope of Wikipedia guidelines and policies
Pro:
Manual of Style (list of works) (guideline)
"Complete lists of works, appropriately sourced to reliable scholarship (WP:V), are encouraged, particularly when such lists are not already freely available on the internet." (And no public DB is complete for pornographic movies or even nearly complete for every actor.)
Possibly Pro:
WP:NOTCENSORED (policy) and more specifically Wikipedia:Sexual_content (essay). I mention it here only because one discussion started based on this.
Contra:
WP:NOTDIRECTORY (policy)
This describes that "directories" and "sales catalogs" are not wanted. So I think matches the question much better than WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Strictly seen an article listing 100 movies and has a little BLP text on top still remains a directory or given - enough detail, even a sales catalog.
WP:FAN (essay) - But this is actually only an eassay and is not (and can not be) very detailed.
Not applicable:
WP:INDISCRIMINATE (policy)
This part of WP:NOT bascially describes what material does not deserve an own article but says nothing about the content of articles that can be included additionally. Furthermore nothing comparable to an appended list of movies is mentioned. It starts with "As explained in the policy introduction, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia. Wikipedia articles should not be: " and then "Plot-only description of fictional works", "Lyrics databases", "Excessive listing of statistics", "News reports", "Who's who" and "FAQs" are listed. None of this can be applied to articles containing a large filmography. The point was nevertheless brought up many times in the discussions and is even still listed as justification the filmography restriction on the project page.
Pro and Contra in discussions
PRO:
Although I think the last point goes in the direction of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and should be not that relevant.
CONTRA:
I hope I didn't miss a major argument of either side.
Current Situation
In scope of "WikiProject Pornography" many articles about Japanese actors seem to ingore the current filmography restriction as defined on the project main page. There may be other articles too but I only know about the Jenna Jameson filmography. To my subjective impression most of the editors in the discussion would prefer the 6-rule as it is. But in any way the point should either be removed from the porject page if there is no consensus or be extended to reflect a consensus that also ensures that this discussion will not come up over and over again.
Editor USER:Tim1965 made a good and structured suggestion in one of the last discussions how this problem can be solved and a compromise could look like. Unfortunately it remained uncommented. If this is not acceptable maybe this question should be taken to a "higher instance". Testales ( talk) 21:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Additional note
Generally when looking at pornographic movies it should be taken into account that there are a few points in matters of "quality" which are different from mainstream movies:
Testales ( talk) 08:21, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
A Solution?
Several days have past without any further responses and I also have the impression of some tiredness to discuss this over and over again without reaching a clear consensus. Therefore I suggest the two following options for a "final" answer to the question whether comprehensive filmgraphies of pornographic actors should be permitted or not:
If there are no objections against that procedure and no fundamentally new input, preferably from other than the few the editors who already posted their opinion, and also the first point is not accepted, I would start the RfC in 3 or 4 days as the bot will otherwise simply archive the problem once again. I think all relevant arguments were already given, many times mostly, and should be rather completely listed above.
Testales ( talk) 10:29, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
There's no need for an RfC, which will just drag this discussion out further, create more drama and waste more time. It's simple: This project has created a POV/Biased criterion which is in opposition to a general one accepted throughout Wikipedia. Complete works of lists are encouraged. WP-wide consensus on this has long been established. Dekkappai ( talk) 14:00, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
I've been following this conversation since I saw it when I posted my request for help a few days ago. I don't see what the big deal is with including more than six − be it 20, 50, 100, or all − of an actor's movies. I've seen plenty of actors over in WP:FILM and WP:TV who have some of their most inane and unnotable credits (bringing their lists to well over six) listed in my years of reading and editing as an IP. And that hasn't changed since I got off my lazy butt and registered. So why should it be any different for the adult movie folks? Either those TV and "straight" movie actors pages are wrong (possible, of course) or some flexibility would seem to be needed for this project. I don't know if the opinion of someone outside the project really matters but I thought I'd throw it out there that this person who doesn't really know a lot about porn doesn't see the big deal. Millahnna (mouse) talk 14:21, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
My opinion is that full filmographies should only be encouraged if a reasonably-comprehensive, English-language filmography isn't available elsewhere online. IAFD will always do a better job than Wikipedia can at maintaining reliable, up-to-date filmographies of our hundreds of Western performers. I do though disagree with the six-movie rule due to POV and OR concerns; articles should either have a full filmographies or none at all. Epbr123 ( talk) 15:26, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
The anti-pornography movement article is in a terrible state at the moment: the article almost entirely concentrates on the Dworkin/MacKinnon strand of 1970s feminist anti-pornography thinking, and has substantially removed coverage of all other aspects of anti-pornography campaigning, whether feminist or not. See Talk:Anti-pornography_movement#Omission_of_earlier_anti-pornography_movements for more on this. -- The Anome ( talk) 16:06, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Okay, thanks to the edit warring over images in the Japanese article, I notice this section is cited to a lot in justifying that the image can be used. This part was written sometime in 2007. The fair use or non-free content policies and guidelines on wikipedia have gotten a lot stricter over the years and we need to re-review this section and rewrite to comply with WP:NFC (a guideline) and WP:NFCC (a policy). If there are any conflict between the two, which I see there's a big whopper with regards of how free content can be created, the policy trumps the guidelines. Morbidthoughts ( talk) 07:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
It's pretty pointless to discuss this here. I will bring that up to the policy talk page. Epbr123 even confirmed my guessing regarding the relation between WP:NFCC and WP:NFC, one beeing more general and the other trying to be more specfic. I also see no contradiction here. Therefore the removing of images is at least for my first 3 reverts clearly against that policy. It's also far beyond my understanding how keeping of a promotional image of icon size that has been there for years can be disruptive as claimed by Kww. And sorry, even with the best will, I completely fail to assume good faith here in HWs actions. I am still new here, so I may not know if there is a common practice, a unwritten rule so to say, regarding such cases but obvioulsy this must be discussed on the policy page and with a more authoritative result. It's just funny if then somebody writes at ANI that policies are not law, tells about consensus and discussion - haha, even guidelines are usally treated as policy and therefore ultimately law, especially when it comes to deletion. That's the difference between theory and reality. Very disappointing. Just see this case, come on we are talking he about a few crappy images with little to no chance that there will ever somebody come and demand to remove them because they are his property. Endless discussions of many A4 pages are required here just because some people obviously hate to have porn topics on Wikipedia. I can understand their point and I even agree to it to some degree. But it's not the way to go, to kill stuff through the backdoor by over strictly interpreting policies and weighting every single word just to have something deleted. Wikipedia would only have to declare itself as beeing purely educational and the problem would be solved. Btw. on commons is also only educational material allowed. An educational Wikpedia would only keep articles about porn start that have appeared in TV or genereally mainstream media. It would also remove any pornographic movies that have not had any presence in mainstream media. Furthermore the wole entertainment area would be affected, so no excessive description of single episodes of series and so on. But as long as there is no BIG consensus that Wikipedia is focussed that way certain people should accept the presence of material that the don't want to see in an encyclopedia instead of beeing incivil and deleting on sight. But currently a lot of articles describing the orginal spirit of Wikipedia are pointless now. So for example if I can easily delete something why should I even try to improve it first? It is my very impression that certain problems that have got publicity especially regarding BLP and porn are still reckless (ab-)used as general justification for a extreme deletion attitude. Testales ( talk) 20:29, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Should the Playboy Playmate infobox include a "natural bust" field? Please see the discussion here. Thanks, Dismas| (talk) 05:46, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Epbr123, an Admin in this project who claims to be one of the chief architects of "notability" criteria as defined here, is making "Delete" votes at five current AfDs on Japanese Pink films which do pass those criteria. Though these are films, rather than BLPs, all of them were awarded at the Pink Grand Prix, the major award in the genre-- some of them garnering than one award. They also pass WP:NOTFILM due to being notable (award-winning) films in the filmographies of notable personnel. The AfDs are:
Though he has apparently created dozens of less reliably-sourced sub-stubs on less-notable US hardcore porn subjects which pass criteria he claims to have created, Epbr123 has justified his Delete votes with his personal opinion that there are "too many" such articles, a justification which indicates he has tainted other AfDs under the watch of this project, and the notability guidelines themselves, with his own personal bias of an artificial limit to the coverage of notable subjects. This should be of concern to all members at this project, as it compromises NPOV, OR, and makes coverage here clearly biased. Dekkappai ( talk) 17:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
I've been removing the "Pornographic film" categories from Pink film articles because I see that Russ Meyer's films are not categorized this way. The Pink films are in the same style as his. "Pink film" is already a category, and redundant or inappropriate to the "Pornographic film" categories depending on your definitions. Another editor has reverted one of these removals. Thoughts? Dekkappai ( talk) 23:45, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Please see my addition at the top of the "Usefull links" section of the main project page. And please act upon it. If you want to improve a porn-related page, look it up on Google Books and add referenced information. It's as simple as that. If you look at our B and C-class articles, especially famous porn films and porn studios, you will see that over the course of a few weeks I managed to add a plethora of referenced info from google books. Imagine what we could achieve if we all did this. Willy turner ( talk) 21:45, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I stumbled about TMZ once again as it was cited by many other source including some that are usually regarded as "reliable". For example see this or more generally this. The New York Times had even a dedicated article about it. I think that's quite a lot of reputation and I just saw that there is also a Wikipedia article. I have also read some WP:RSN discussions regarding this but the outcome is not very clear. It appears that it can be accepted for pure celebrity news especially when other RS quote TMZ. So what's the opinion here? Testales ( talk) 08:47, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Would winning an XBIZ Award consitute proof of notability? Is there a precedent here? Kenilworth Terrace ( talk) 18:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
For what it's worth, there is an adage in the porn industry which goes: "The XBIZ Awards is what the AVN Awards wishes it was". Glenn Francis ( talk) 23:20, 27 August 2010 (UTC)