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Archive 25 | ← | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | → | Archive 35 |
To avoid misunderstanding especially from the die-heart fans, I think we should remove the infoboxes from all operatic singers – famous or less famous. Some people put it back on because they thought we being “double standard” – simply because famous operatic singers have info boxes in their articles. I just removed from Pavarotti, Caruso and Domingo. See how it goes from here. (It feels a bit sad for me to remove it from Domingo’s article because it looks “nice” in there..) I truly understand why some people were unhappy and decided to put them back on again and again after some of you removed them. Usually when we have our “pet singers”, we tend to “protect” them.. to the extreme :)) I seriously understand the notion. - Jay 10:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
We have a policy in place now against using infonoxes this says: New infoboxes: We hope all new infoboxes will be proposed and discussed on the project talk page before being added to individual pages. We deplore the use of generic infoboxes that have not been designed with opera in mind, and contain factual errors and ambiguities. Remember: factual accuracy is essential, infoboxes aren't.
This policy can be changed but I hope it won't. THis policy has been successful in getting them off almost all of the 3,500 opera pages. The danger is that if we allow them on singer pages, we will soon see them back on composer pages and the rest, and then on opera title pages as well.
The main problem as ever with infoboxes is accuracy. Lauritz Melchior was described as a singer of 'opera and pop', Giuseppe di Stefano as a singer of 'opera and Canzone Neapolitana', and Grace Moore currently as 'opera and pop', occupation 'singer and actress'.
Melchior did of course appear on TV a few times. Di Stefano did make one recording on Neapolitan songs and Grace Moore did make films - in which she sang. (The Moore article concentrates on her as an American celebrity, failing to mention that she made her debut as Mimi at the Opéra-Comique in 1928 etc.). However there's no doubt that all of them regarded themselves as opera singers and put all their effort in that direction.
I hope we can continue to try keep infoboxes out of opera articles (wherever possible without getting involved in edit wars) as part of a general policy to stick to accuracy and resists trivialization of the articles. (Obviously we should leave them alone when the articles come under other bona fide projects.)
There is a considerable history about the Biography Project, their trawling of opera articles and assignment of them to 'work groups' (to which I can direct anyone interested) however they have a cautious policy on infoboxes
Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Infoboxes says Certain biography articles have opposition camps on infoboxes. With the current work groups, it is generally safe, but, for instance, scientist articles can have some heated debates on these. So, if you are tagging a scientist, academic, or "classical" composer, musician or singer, first ask on the Talk page. Moreover the 'Infobox musical artist' (the one which is being used on singer pages) is specifically for popular musical artists not opera. -- Kleinzach 04:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, it seems quite arrogant to me to argue that opera singers are somehow "above" infoboxes. If there's one problem I have with the whole Wikipedia classical music community, it is this rejection of infoboxes. They are used in almost every other biography article; why should classical musicians and composers be exempt? Because "factual inaccuracies" could find their way into the infoboxes? Then put the articles on your watchlist and make sure they don't; this can happen with any article. All your arguments against infoboxes apply to all singers, not just opera singers, so unless the convention is to be changed for every type of singer, we should remain consistent and use infoboxes in opera articles too. I am an opera and art music enthusiast myself, but this whole affair seems rather snobbish. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 06:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The Opera Project is not alone in being against infoboxes. The other two closely related music projects: Composers and Classical Music are against having them. Many other projects in the sciences and arts also refuse to have them (see the reference to scientists and academics above). It's not just opera singers. To say, as Cielomobile does, that "They are used in almost every other biography article" is untrue. They aren't. -- Kleinzach 07:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes because that would duplicate the lead paragraph to no purpose. orlady please note I have replied to your reversion of the Grace Moore infobox on the article Talk page. Anyone else interested in the subject of Grace Moore as an opera singer is welcome to contribute to the discussion. I think the article treats her as American celebrity instead of as an international singer. Her adventutes in Hollywood were typical of those of singgers on her period, little different in fact from Pavarotti's Yes, Giorgio. -- Kleinzach 12:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, I looked for other groups of editors that oppose the use of infoboxes (such as for scientists), but I couldn't find any. Isaac Newton and Charles Darwin both have long had infoboxes, so it would seem that academics and scientists do indeed have infoboxes. The opposition of infoboxes seems to be limited to the classical music community. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 23:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I have just found that Cielomobile put this note on the Project page:
*Note: this is currently being discussed on the talk page, see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera#Infobox:_To_remove_or_not_to.._better_do_it_once_and_for_all.
I have removed it and ask him never to do this again. The Infobox policy was discussed here and the wording was agreed by the Project. It is not for one editor to announce the policy is under review especially when he/she is the only person challenging it. This is unacceptable behaviour. -- Kleinzach 23:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | → | Archive 35 |
To avoid misunderstanding especially from the die-heart fans, I think we should remove the infoboxes from all operatic singers – famous or less famous. Some people put it back on because they thought we being “double standard” – simply because famous operatic singers have info boxes in their articles. I just removed from Pavarotti, Caruso and Domingo. See how it goes from here. (It feels a bit sad for me to remove it from Domingo’s article because it looks “nice” in there..) I truly understand why some people were unhappy and decided to put them back on again and again after some of you removed them. Usually when we have our “pet singers”, we tend to “protect” them.. to the extreme :)) I seriously understand the notion. - Jay 10:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
We have a policy in place now against using infonoxes this says: New infoboxes: We hope all new infoboxes will be proposed and discussed on the project talk page before being added to individual pages. We deplore the use of generic infoboxes that have not been designed with opera in mind, and contain factual errors and ambiguities. Remember: factual accuracy is essential, infoboxes aren't.
This policy can be changed but I hope it won't. THis policy has been successful in getting them off almost all of the 3,500 opera pages. The danger is that if we allow them on singer pages, we will soon see them back on composer pages and the rest, and then on opera title pages as well.
The main problem as ever with infoboxes is accuracy. Lauritz Melchior was described as a singer of 'opera and pop', Giuseppe di Stefano as a singer of 'opera and Canzone Neapolitana', and Grace Moore currently as 'opera and pop', occupation 'singer and actress'.
Melchior did of course appear on TV a few times. Di Stefano did make one recording on Neapolitan songs and Grace Moore did make films - in which she sang. (The Moore article concentrates on her as an American celebrity, failing to mention that she made her debut as Mimi at the Opéra-Comique in 1928 etc.). However there's no doubt that all of them regarded themselves as opera singers and put all their effort in that direction.
I hope we can continue to try keep infoboxes out of opera articles (wherever possible without getting involved in edit wars) as part of a general policy to stick to accuracy and resists trivialization of the articles. (Obviously we should leave them alone when the articles come under other bona fide projects.)
There is a considerable history about the Biography Project, their trawling of opera articles and assignment of them to 'work groups' (to which I can direct anyone interested) however they have a cautious policy on infoboxes
Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Infoboxes says Certain biography articles have opposition camps on infoboxes. With the current work groups, it is generally safe, but, for instance, scientist articles can have some heated debates on these. So, if you are tagging a scientist, academic, or "classical" composer, musician or singer, first ask on the Talk page. Moreover the 'Infobox musical artist' (the one which is being used on singer pages) is specifically for popular musical artists not opera. -- Kleinzach 04:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, it seems quite arrogant to me to argue that opera singers are somehow "above" infoboxes. If there's one problem I have with the whole Wikipedia classical music community, it is this rejection of infoboxes. They are used in almost every other biography article; why should classical musicians and composers be exempt? Because "factual inaccuracies" could find their way into the infoboxes? Then put the articles on your watchlist and make sure they don't; this can happen with any article. All your arguments against infoboxes apply to all singers, not just opera singers, so unless the convention is to be changed for every type of singer, we should remain consistent and use infoboxes in opera articles too. I am an opera and art music enthusiast myself, but this whole affair seems rather snobbish. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 06:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The Opera Project is not alone in being against infoboxes. The other two closely related music projects: Composers and Classical Music are against having them. Many other projects in the sciences and arts also refuse to have them (see the reference to scientists and academics above). It's not just opera singers. To say, as Cielomobile does, that "They are used in almost every other biography article" is untrue. They aren't. -- Kleinzach 07:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes because that would duplicate the lead paragraph to no purpose. orlady please note I have replied to your reversion of the Grace Moore infobox on the article Talk page. Anyone else interested in the subject of Grace Moore as an opera singer is welcome to contribute to the discussion. I think the article treats her as American celebrity instead of as an international singer. Her adventutes in Hollywood were typical of those of singgers on her period, little different in fact from Pavarotti's Yes, Giorgio. -- Kleinzach 12:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, I looked for other groups of editors that oppose the use of infoboxes (such as for scientists), but I couldn't find any. Isaac Newton and Charles Darwin both have long had infoboxes, so it would seem that academics and scientists do indeed have infoboxes. The opposition of infoboxes seems to be limited to the classical music community. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 23:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I have just found that Cielomobile put this note on the Project page:
*Note: this is currently being discussed on the talk page, see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera#Infobox:_To_remove_or_not_to.._better_do_it_once_and_for_all.
I have removed it and ask him never to do this again. The Infobox policy was discussed here and the wording was agreed by the Project. It is not for one editor to announce the policy is under review especially when he/she is the only person challenging it. This is unacceptable behaviour. -- Kleinzach 23:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)