![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Tolkien articles by quality and importance | |||||||
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Quality | Importance | ||||||
Top | High | Mid | Low | NA | Total | ||
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1 | 1 | 2 | 4 | |||
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1 | 1 | |||||
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9 | 50 | 106 | 64 | 229 | ||
B | 8 | 35 | 48 | 91 | |||
C | 1 | 25 | 67 | 1 | 94 | ||
Start | 3 | 140 | 143 | ||||
Stub | 3 | 3 | |||||
List | 2 | 6 | 10 | 1 | 19 | ||
Category | 171 | 171 | |||||
Disambig | 34 | 34 | |||||
File | 17 | 20 | 17 | 17 | 19 | 90 | |
Project | 3 | 3 | |||||
Redirect | 2 | 6 | 567 | 575 | |||
Template | 45 | 45 | |||||
NA | 3 | 3 | |||||
Other | 1 | 2 | 3 | ||||
Assessed | 27 | 82 | 200 | 358 | 841 | 1,508 | |
Total | 27 | 82 | 200 | 358 | 841 | 1,508 | |
WikiWork factors ( ?) | ω = 1,840 | Ω = 3.26 |
![]() Archives |
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If anyone wants to pull out or copy a previous discussion, feel free to to do so. — Mir l e n 17:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC) |
Please sign your name below and on the front page. Comments are optional.
Please ensure these are all added to Portal:Middle-earth/Pages. This is a list of all the pages related to the project, to allow related changes for that page to be used to watch changes to all the pages - please add template, categories and similar pages to that list as well. Though there should be periodic attempts to redo the list in a comprehensive fashion, keeping it up-to-date manually will be a great help. If you are uncertain about whether a page belongs there, list it at Portal talk:Middle-earth/Pages. Please also ensure that {{ ME-project}} is added on the talk page of new articles, try to give them an initial assessment, and place them in the correct categories. The top level categories are Category:Tolkien and Category:Middle-earth. Carcharoth 16:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Probably some others as well. Carcharoth ( talk) 00:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Have a look at Category:Middle-earth redirects! Some great work has been done there by Súrendil, showing how our redirects should be organised, and the advantages of such organisation, showing how redirects to lists and sections can really help organise merged lists and avoid having hundreds of short stubs. This also reduces the amount of material that needs assessing as well, once the "merge era" is finished. Carcharoth 11:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Currently we have 15 articles that are considered examples of the best articles we have. I am going to list them below so that people can enjoy reading them, help improve them, and have a model for articles they work on. These are from Category:FA-Class Tolkien articles ( WP:FAC is a separate peer reviewed process); Category:A-Class Tolkien articles (examples of the best articles we have - effectively an internal wikiproject assessment); Category:GA-Class Tolkien articles (the WP:GA process is a separate review process). I haven't included any of the 85 current B-class articles at Category:B-Class Tolkien articles, but if any of those are especially good in your opinion, please re-assess, or list or discuss below. Also, please raise any concerns you have with these articles below, though remember to take extensive discussions to the article talk pages. It would be nice to update this every couple of months to see what progress is being made. Carcharoth 12:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
FA, A, and GA articles:
Discussion
There are some articles that I think are good models for how to merge material from stubs and reference it (well, at least in some cases). If you see any articles that you like the look of, please add them below. Carcharoth 22:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
See also Category:Middle-earth lists. Anyone have any thoughts about the advantages and disadvantages of these different styles? Carcharoth 22:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I say another, though the previous one never really took off... I noticed that some people are busy merging and assessing articles, and as you can see from Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Tolkien articles by quality statistics, the number of assessed articles (534) is close to overtaking the number of unassessed articles (603). So let's aim to cross the halfway stage soon! Remember to consider merging before you assess something, as assessing is pointless if the article is later merged. Any questions, please ask. Carcharoth 21:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Images/Disputed images. Carcharoth 03:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Discussion taking place at Talk:Tolkien's legendarium, in case anyone is interested. Carcharoth 13:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I have just examined over a dozen articles in Category:Middle-earth locations, and not one of them can anywhere near meeting the notability requirements set out in WP:FICTION. I have tagged the articles accordingly with {{ nn}} etc, in the hope that editors may be able to produce references which demonstrate notability. May I remind participants in this project that not every detail of Tolkein's works is notable, and that notability needs to be demonstrated for each article by external sources (i.e. not just by citations from Tolkein's works). It would be a pity to see so much writing being deleted, but that's what's likely to happen unless references are forthcoming.
It maybe better to merge many of these small articles into a limited number of much bigger articles for which suitable secondary references are available. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 02:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
{deindent) Thanks for the replies, and sorry if I had misunderstood the history of the articles. Good to know that a cleanup is underway :)
Thanks to CBD for clarifying intent of the guidelines; that make sense, although there is a danger that it could be interpreted as encouraging original research. It might be a good idea to clarify that, and wouldn't it be a good idea to add a section to the referencing guidelines stressing the importance of secondary sources to establish notability?
Good luck with all the mergeing — there is a lot of work to do there, and not just in combing articles. Even the article Minor places in Middle-earth currently has no secondary sources to establish notability, and I do wonder whether deletion may be a better solution in many cases. There has clearly been a lot of work put into creating all this material, but so far it hasn't been shown to meet wikipedia's notability criteria. I haven't scanned all the all the sub-categories, but so far I don't see any articles in Category:Middle-earth locations which pass WP:FICTION. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 19:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
See here, here and here for the latest. The short story is that a large spate (around 150) of non-notability tags were placed by BrownHairedGirl, followed by mass reversions by IronGargoyle, followed by mass reversions by BrownHairedGirl of the reversions. A similar incident took place back in August (see here for details). We probably need to emphasise what should and shouldn't be done if this happens again in future. I suggest something like the following:
If you didn't understand any of that, please ask! :-) Carcharoth 00:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I'd like to help out a bit with Middle-earth-related articles. What sources are available? I am familiar with The History of Middle-earth, by Christopher Tolkien, The Atlas of Middle-earth, by Karen Wynn Fonstad, and I know there are a number of other scholarly works (some are categorized at Category:Tolkien studies) including Tolkien Studies: An Annual Scholary Review. Could there be a list (at Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Sources, or somewhere similar) of what works are available and also what works are relevant to which aspects of Middle-earth? Thanks, -- Iamunknown 00:56, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree that stubs like Folde ought to be merged, but into Minor places in Middle-earth or Rohan? Mirlen has opined that merging into the "parent" country would be better (in the case of Lamedon/Lossarnach and Gondor). Above our anonymous contributor suggested to merge Durin's Tower and Chamber of Mazarbul into Moria (Middle-earth), as was Bridge of Khazad-dum, but Durin's Tower is already in "Minor places". Uthanc 21:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Since a lot of merging is going on at the moment, I should repost the guidelines. See here, which links to here. Don't worry too much if any of the steps have been left out, but please do try and follow them. Once you've done a few, it is fairly easy to remember. The checklist needs to be updated with a link to Category:Middle-earth redirects, and the bit about talk page and removing the assessment tags. Carcharoth 17:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I've been away for some time, and it's a real pity that I was unable to participate in the discussions. I generally agree with BrownHairedGirl's points, but still feel uneasy in this respect: how should the references to tertiary sources be introduced? Common facts should only be referenced to JRRT and CJRT's books, or to some Vinyar Tengwar for texts not published otherwise. If some third-party source does make a guess on Tolkien's work, we have an anchor; but what if it only recounts the history of the conception which has also been traced by CJRT in History? Carcharoth has added several references to J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia just as a 'source' at the foot of a page, though nothing particular seems to be derived from it. Is that a possible solution?
Turning to BrownHairedGirl's request that "this project [should] start its own work of checking notability", I suppose it is appropriate that we should have our own notability tag instead of the general Template:Nn (WikiProject Chemistry has one). Since I'm unable to provide references other than to HoMe now but hope to get a chance in future, I've created Template:ME-importance. It is based more on Template:Importance that on T:Nn, as the former's doc page states "use this template when the subject probably is notable enough, but the article fails to establish notability" - and I intend T:Me-importance only to be used for cases where notability is obvious - Gondor, Belegaer etc. As the wording of T:ME-importance shows, it directly asks for tertiary sources, so it can as well replace Template:primarysources; and it also adds articles to Category:Tolkien articles of unclear notability to keep track of them. If nobody opposes, I'm planning to replace BrownHairedGirl's tags with either this template, or Template:Merge JRRT (unless I merge article myself). Súrendil 19:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm generally in favour of WP:BOLD, but I have just spotted a series of edit by YLSS/Surendil which seem to run counter to what was discussed above, In these edits ( [1], [2], [3], [4]), an {{ unreferenced}} tag had been removed even though the articles remain unreferenced. I have not checked all the uses of {{ ME-importance}}, but so far I have found only one instance of {{ ME-importance}} being used without the removal of an {{ unreferenced}} tag.
Furthermore, the template still includes a link to Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards#References, which still specifically says "Try not to cite secondary sources or tertiary sources". As above, this actively undermines the notability guidelines.
Please reinstate the tags which were previously on those articles, and please do not use the {{ ME-importance}} tag until the project standards to which it links have been corrected. (it is curently attached to over 20 articles, from which it should be removed and the previous tags reinstated. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 10:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards#References. Hopefully that is OK. Carcharoth 11:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been no comment for 8 days on the draft Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards/References, so may I propose that it now be copied to Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards#References? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 14:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Anyone want to take a look at the exchange under "Incorrect passage" at the bottom of Talk:On Fairy-Stories and weigh in with an opinion before I attempt to perform major surgery on the article? Deor 01:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I made some adjustments to {{ ME-ref}} and created a new {{ ME-cite}} template. The complete spectrum of these templates can be seen here and instructions are displayed on the template page(s). The general idea is that you can do {{subst:ME-cite|RotK|Appendix A}} to create a reference link like --> [1]. That then shows up in a <references/> section as;
. If you then put {{ME-ref|Rotk}} in another section you can click the 'Return of the King 1955' link in the reference above to jump to and highlight the full description --> Tolkien, J. R. R. (1955). The Return of the King. The Lord of the Rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. OCLC 519647821.. Thus, the full publication details for the book only go on the page once, but all the individual citations are linked to it. The ME-ref template can still be used exactly as it was before, but I think there will be alot of advantages to using ME-cite for the inline citations (with sections and/or page numbers) and then ME-ref for the full reference details. -- CBD 00:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone needs to disambiguate Irmo from the Tolkein character. The town in South Carolina is much more relevant to the wikipedia searcher than the character. I will try to do it but may error, so I'd like some assurances I did it correctly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylelbishop ( talk • contribs) 15:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
(Time to brush up my nerd cred, I guess.) We've had an article Awakening of the Elves since 2004. It's full of statements which in a factual-history article would require specific hard cites. It has a general "Reference" ( The War of the Jewels), but it does not have such specific cites. Is this article okay? Is it plagiarism of some sort? It it adequately cited? Is it accurate? -- Writtenonsand 16:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Category:Middle-earth Dragons seems ripe for merging, either into Dragon (Middle-earth) or a list, but there's only four of them. Note that Chrysophylax Dives is part of Farmer Giles of Ham. Of the four, Smaug and Glaurung are the only true "characters" as Scatha and Ancalagon appear to be little more than footnotes/anecdotes, discounting evolution. Uthanc 17:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I've now merged all the Kings of Rohan into List of Kings of Rohan. That article still needs tidying up and referencing. Also created Category:Kings of Rohan to subcategorise the redirects. Left three with their own articles: Helm Hammerhand, Théoden and Éomer. Possibly Helm Hammerhand should be merged instead, or Eorl the Young brought out again as its own article. Carcharoth ( talk) 16:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Something unrelated brought me to Tar-Telemmaitë an unreferenced stub in Category:Rulers of Númenor, which tagged accordingly. I check two more, then tagged all three for merger, but looking further through that category it seems that there are a few long articles (but some, such as Tar-Aldarion are unreferenced), and lots of unreferenced stubs which should be merged. I suggested merging to Númenor, but a better merge get might be List of rulers of Númenor. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 20:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The stubs have been merged. The three articles are now List of rulers of Númenor, Kings of Númenor, and Ruling Queens of Númenor. There is also a category, Category:Rulers of Númenor, which includes the redirects as an alternative browsing method. Three articles remain as their own articles: Elros, Tar-Aldarion and Ar-Pharazôn. More work needs doing to address the concerns raised by BrownHairedGirl and me (see above), but this is a start, reducing the clutter of 25+ separate articles to six, and focusing the work needed onto one article. I also created Category:Númenóreans for the non-ruling Númenóreans, about which even less is said compared to the rulers (if that is possible), so that is a set of articles that needs tidying up soon. Carcharoth 14:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
When the next update occurs, the number of unassessed articles should be below 400. At around this time last year (see here) there were 1368 unassessed articles (including redirects and stubs). At that time (11 December 2006) there were a total of 1399 articles tagged with {{ ME-project}}. The current update ( 30 November 2007) shows a total of 1067 articles, which shows that some progress has been made with merging (though more work needs doing). The short-term aim should be to get the total below 1000. I think, with the right sort of merging, that the total number of articles should number in the hundreds, rather than over 1000. For a full history of the additions and changes, see Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Tolkien articles by quality log. The earlier history has been truncated to keep the page short enough to load - see the page history for that earlier history. Carcharoth 14:04, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I made a few small edits to the Shelob page today, and would really like to get this one out of start class and further up the quality scale. I was thinking of including information such as discrepancies between Tolkien's spider anatomy and actual spider anatomy (ie stinging vs fangs), further expansion of her relationship with various ME characters such as Gollum and Sauron, and expand on her role in the plot. Any opinions on the relevance of these or suggestions for inclusion?
I'd also like to move onto working on the Ungoliant page once I've got to work on Shelob (input appreciated on that also), and was wondering if there's a page anywhere about the Mirkwood Spiders? There doesn't seem to be anything specifically about them which seems odd, and if there isn't a page, I'd be willing to create one, as I think they're notable enough within The Hobbit to merit it. Might as well establish myself as the Weird Spider Geek on here as I have done in the real world... :) Faerie Queene ( talk) 04:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
There is currently an arbitration case in progress on how to behave in disputes over possibly non-notable fictional articles. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters/Workshop. This may be of interest to those working on merges and notability of articles edited by this Wikiproject. Carcharoth ( talk) 12:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Could someone deal with this please? I changed Elfwine to redirect to the father of the real-world person. I created Elfwine (Middle-earth), but most of the links are pointing to the wrong place. I'm away for a few days now, so could someone fix those please? Thanks. Carcharoth ( talk) 16:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I tried to change the article on Durin's Folk to include a link to Gimli, son of Glóin, son of Gróin, but somehow it was messed up. Fix the article, and try to link to Gimli, son of Glóin, son of Gróin. Sorry about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.152.239.101 ( talk) 23:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
How can Luthien be 43 664 years when she first met Beren, when Cirdan, who woke up at Cuivenen before Elwë met Melian, is 15 000 (or 36 000) years old at the time of the War of the Ring?? (For the age of Cirdan, see the Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%ADrdan)
marteljeanfrancois@hotmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.202.165.251 ( talk) 01:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know if anyone could look at the page for Caras Galadhon so that its notability tag could be removed.
I've worked on the page for a week and I think it's becoming pretty acceptable. Please let me know what you think. I would be very appreciated if you did that, please.
Superlost ( talk) 21:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone check "what links here" for these lot that I've created after some merges, and fix them?
Thanks. Carcharoth ( talk) 18:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there a coordinator for this Wikiproject? And should we start a role call for this month? Harland1 ( t/ c) 12:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Tolkien articles by quality and importance | |||||||
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Quality | Importance | ||||||
Top | High | Mid | Low | NA | Total | ||
![]() |
1 | 1 | 2 | 4 | |||
![]() |
1 | 1 | |||||
![]() |
9 | 50 | 106 | 64 | 229 | ||
B | 8 | 35 | 48 | 91 | |||
C | 1 | 25 | 67 | 1 | 94 | ||
Start | 3 | 140 | 143 | ||||
Stub | 3 | 3 | |||||
List | 2 | 6 | 10 | 1 | 19 | ||
Category | 171 | 171 | |||||
Disambig | 34 | 34 | |||||
File | 17 | 20 | 17 | 17 | 19 | 90 | |
Project | 3 | 3 | |||||
Redirect | 2 | 6 | 567 | 575 | |||
Template | 45 | 45 | |||||
NA | 3 | 3 | |||||
Other | 1 | 2 | 3 | ||||
Assessed | 27 | 82 | 200 | 358 | 841 | 1,508 | |
Total | 27 | 82 | 200 | 358 | 841 | 1,508 | |
WikiWork factors ( ?) | ω = 1,840 | Ω = 3.26 |
![]() Archives |
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If anyone wants to pull out or copy a previous discussion, feel free to to do so. — Mir l e n 17:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC) |
Please sign your name below and on the front page. Comments are optional.
Please ensure these are all added to Portal:Middle-earth/Pages. This is a list of all the pages related to the project, to allow related changes for that page to be used to watch changes to all the pages - please add template, categories and similar pages to that list as well. Though there should be periodic attempts to redo the list in a comprehensive fashion, keeping it up-to-date manually will be a great help. If you are uncertain about whether a page belongs there, list it at Portal talk:Middle-earth/Pages. Please also ensure that {{ ME-project}} is added on the talk page of new articles, try to give them an initial assessment, and place them in the correct categories. The top level categories are Category:Tolkien and Category:Middle-earth. Carcharoth 16:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Probably some others as well. Carcharoth ( talk) 00:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Have a look at Category:Middle-earth redirects! Some great work has been done there by Súrendil, showing how our redirects should be organised, and the advantages of such organisation, showing how redirects to lists and sections can really help organise merged lists and avoid having hundreds of short stubs. This also reduces the amount of material that needs assessing as well, once the "merge era" is finished. Carcharoth 11:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Currently we have 15 articles that are considered examples of the best articles we have. I am going to list them below so that people can enjoy reading them, help improve them, and have a model for articles they work on. These are from Category:FA-Class Tolkien articles ( WP:FAC is a separate peer reviewed process); Category:A-Class Tolkien articles (examples of the best articles we have - effectively an internal wikiproject assessment); Category:GA-Class Tolkien articles (the WP:GA process is a separate review process). I haven't included any of the 85 current B-class articles at Category:B-Class Tolkien articles, but if any of those are especially good in your opinion, please re-assess, or list or discuss below. Also, please raise any concerns you have with these articles below, though remember to take extensive discussions to the article talk pages. It would be nice to update this every couple of months to see what progress is being made. Carcharoth 12:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
FA, A, and GA articles:
Discussion
There are some articles that I think are good models for how to merge material from stubs and reference it (well, at least in some cases). If you see any articles that you like the look of, please add them below. Carcharoth 22:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
See also Category:Middle-earth lists. Anyone have any thoughts about the advantages and disadvantages of these different styles? Carcharoth 22:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I say another, though the previous one never really took off... I noticed that some people are busy merging and assessing articles, and as you can see from Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Tolkien articles by quality statistics, the number of assessed articles (534) is close to overtaking the number of unassessed articles (603). So let's aim to cross the halfway stage soon! Remember to consider merging before you assess something, as assessing is pointless if the article is later merged. Any questions, please ask. Carcharoth 21:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Images/Disputed images. Carcharoth 03:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Discussion taking place at Talk:Tolkien's legendarium, in case anyone is interested. Carcharoth 13:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I have just examined over a dozen articles in Category:Middle-earth locations, and not one of them can anywhere near meeting the notability requirements set out in WP:FICTION. I have tagged the articles accordingly with {{ nn}} etc, in the hope that editors may be able to produce references which demonstrate notability. May I remind participants in this project that not every detail of Tolkein's works is notable, and that notability needs to be demonstrated for each article by external sources (i.e. not just by citations from Tolkein's works). It would be a pity to see so much writing being deleted, but that's what's likely to happen unless references are forthcoming.
It maybe better to merge many of these small articles into a limited number of much bigger articles for which suitable secondary references are available. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 02:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
{deindent) Thanks for the replies, and sorry if I had misunderstood the history of the articles. Good to know that a cleanup is underway :)
Thanks to CBD for clarifying intent of the guidelines; that make sense, although there is a danger that it could be interpreted as encouraging original research. It might be a good idea to clarify that, and wouldn't it be a good idea to add a section to the referencing guidelines stressing the importance of secondary sources to establish notability?
Good luck with all the mergeing — there is a lot of work to do there, and not just in combing articles. Even the article Minor places in Middle-earth currently has no secondary sources to establish notability, and I do wonder whether deletion may be a better solution in many cases. There has clearly been a lot of work put into creating all this material, but so far it hasn't been shown to meet wikipedia's notability criteria. I haven't scanned all the all the sub-categories, but so far I don't see any articles in Category:Middle-earth locations which pass WP:FICTION. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 19:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
See here, here and here for the latest. The short story is that a large spate (around 150) of non-notability tags were placed by BrownHairedGirl, followed by mass reversions by IronGargoyle, followed by mass reversions by BrownHairedGirl of the reversions. A similar incident took place back in August (see here for details). We probably need to emphasise what should and shouldn't be done if this happens again in future. I suggest something like the following:
If you didn't understand any of that, please ask! :-) Carcharoth 00:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I'd like to help out a bit with Middle-earth-related articles. What sources are available? I am familiar with The History of Middle-earth, by Christopher Tolkien, The Atlas of Middle-earth, by Karen Wynn Fonstad, and I know there are a number of other scholarly works (some are categorized at Category:Tolkien studies) including Tolkien Studies: An Annual Scholary Review. Could there be a list (at Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Sources, or somewhere similar) of what works are available and also what works are relevant to which aspects of Middle-earth? Thanks, -- Iamunknown 00:56, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree that stubs like Folde ought to be merged, but into Minor places in Middle-earth or Rohan? Mirlen has opined that merging into the "parent" country would be better (in the case of Lamedon/Lossarnach and Gondor). Above our anonymous contributor suggested to merge Durin's Tower and Chamber of Mazarbul into Moria (Middle-earth), as was Bridge of Khazad-dum, but Durin's Tower is already in "Minor places". Uthanc 21:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Since a lot of merging is going on at the moment, I should repost the guidelines. See here, which links to here. Don't worry too much if any of the steps have been left out, but please do try and follow them. Once you've done a few, it is fairly easy to remember. The checklist needs to be updated with a link to Category:Middle-earth redirects, and the bit about talk page and removing the assessment tags. Carcharoth 17:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I've been away for some time, and it's a real pity that I was unable to participate in the discussions. I generally agree with BrownHairedGirl's points, but still feel uneasy in this respect: how should the references to tertiary sources be introduced? Common facts should only be referenced to JRRT and CJRT's books, or to some Vinyar Tengwar for texts not published otherwise. If some third-party source does make a guess on Tolkien's work, we have an anchor; but what if it only recounts the history of the conception which has also been traced by CJRT in History? Carcharoth has added several references to J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia just as a 'source' at the foot of a page, though nothing particular seems to be derived from it. Is that a possible solution?
Turning to BrownHairedGirl's request that "this project [should] start its own work of checking notability", I suppose it is appropriate that we should have our own notability tag instead of the general Template:Nn (WikiProject Chemistry has one). Since I'm unable to provide references other than to HoMe now but hope to get a chance in future, I've created Template:ME-importance. It is based more on Template:Importance that on T:Nn, as the former's doc page states "use this template when the subject probably is notable enough, but the article fails to establish notability" - and I intend T:Me-importance only to be used for cases where notability is obvious - Gondor, Belegaer etc. As the wording of T:ME-importance shows, it directly asks for tertiary sources, so it can as well replace Template:primarysources; and it also adds articles to Category:Tolkien articles of unclear notability to keep track of them. If nobody opposes, I'm planning to replace BrownHairedGirl's tags with either this template, or Template:Merge JRRT (unless I merge article myself). Súrendil 19:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm generally in favour of WP:BOLD, but I have just spotted a series of edit by YLSS/Surendil which seem to run counter to what was discussed above, In these edits ( [1], [2], [3], [4]), an {{ unreferenced}} tag had been removed even though the articles remain unreferenced. I have not checked all the uses of {{ ME-importance}}, but so far I have found only one instance of {{ ME-importance}} being used without the removal of an {{ unreferenced}} tag.
Furthermore, the template still includes a link to Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards#References, which still specifically says "Try not to cite secondary sources or tertiary sources". As above, this actively undermines the notability guidelines.
Please reinstate the tags which were previously on those articles, and please do not use the {{ ME-importance}} tag until the project standards to which it links have been corrected. (it is curently attached to over 20 articles, from which it should be removed and the previous tags reinstated. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 10:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards#References. Hopefully that is OK. Carcharoth 11:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been no comment for 8 days on the draft Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards/References, so may I propose that it now be copied to Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards#References? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 14:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Anyone want to take a look at the exchange under "Incorrect passage" at the bottom of Talk:On Fairy-Stories and weigh in with an opinion before I attempt to perform major surgery on the article? Deor 01:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I made some adjustments to {{ ME-ref}} and created a new {{ ME-cite}} template. The complete spectrum of these templates can be seen here and instructions are displayed on the template page(s). The general idea is that you can do {{subst:ME-cite|RotK|Appendix A}} to create a reference link like --> [1]. That then shows up in a <references/> section as;
. If you then put {{ME-ref|Rotk}} in another section you can click the 'Return of the King 1955' link in the reference above to jump to and highlight the full description --> Tolkien, J. R. R. (1955). The Return of the King. The Lord of the Rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. OCLC 519647821.. Thus, the full publication details for the book only go on the page once, but all the individual citations are linked to it. The ME-ref template can still be used exactly as it was before, but I think there will be alot of advantages to using ME-cite for the inline citations (with sections and/or page numbers) and then ME-ref for the full reference details. -- CBD 00:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone needs to disambiguate Irmo from the Tolkein character. The town in South Carolina is much more relevant to the wikipedia searcher than the character. I will try to do it but may error, so I'd like some assurances I did it correctly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylelbishop ( talk • contribs) 15:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
(Time to brush up my nerd cred, I guess.) We've had an article Awakening of the Elves since 2004. It's full of statements which in a factual-history article would require specific hard cites. It has a general "Reference" ( The War of the Jewels), but it does not have such specific cites. Is this article okay? Is it plagiarism of some sort? It it adequately cited? Is it accurate? -- Writtenonsand 16:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Category:Middle-earth Dragons seems ripe for merging, either into Dragon (Middle-earth) or a list, but there's only four of them. Note that Chrysophylax Dives is part of Farmer Giles of Ham. Of the four, Smaug and Glaurung are the only true "characters" as Scatha and Ancalagon appear to be little more than footnotes/anecdotes, discounting evolution. Uthanc 17:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I've now merged all the Kings of Rohan into List of Kings of Rohan. That article still needs tidying up and referencing. Also created Category:Kings of Rohan to subcategorise the redirects. Left three with their own articles: Helm Hammerhand, Théoden and Éomer. Possibly Helm Hammerhand should be merged instead, or Eorl the Young brought out again as its own article. Carcharoth ( talk) 16:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Something unrelated brought me to Tar-Telemmaitë an unreferenced stub in Category:Rulers of Númenor, which tagged accordingly. I check two more, then tagged all three for merger, but looking further through that category it seems that there are a few long articles (but some, such as Tar-Aldarion are unreferenced), and lots of unreferenced stubs which should be merged. I suggested merging to Númenor, but a better merge get might be List of rulers of Númenor. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 20:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The stubs have been merged. The three articles are now List of rulers of Númenor, Kings of Númenor, and Ruling Queens of Númenor. There is also a category, Category:Rulers of Númenor, which includes the redirects as an alternative browsing method. Three articles remain as their own articles: Elros, Tar-Aldarion and Ar-Pharazôn. More work needs doing to address the concerns raised by BrownHairedGirl and me (see above), but this is a start, reducing the clutter of 25+ separate articles to six, and focusing the work needed onto one article. I also created Category:Númenóreans for the non-ruling Númenóreans, about which even less is said compared to the rulers (if that is possible), so that is a set of articles that needs tidying up soon. Carcharoth 14:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
When the next update occurs, the number of unassessed articles should be below 400. At around this time last year (see here) there were 1368 unassessed articles (including redirects and stubs). At that time (11 December 2006) there were a total of 1399 articles tagged with {{ ME-project}}. The current update ( 30 November 2007) shows a total of 1067 articles, which shows that some progress has been made with merging (though more work needs doing). The short-term aim should be to get the total below 1000. I think, with the right sort of merging, that the total number of articles should number in the hundreds, rather than over 1000. For a full history of the additions and changes, see Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Tolkien articles by quality log. The earlier history has been truncated to keep the page short enough to load - see the page history for that earlier history. Carcharoth 14:04, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I made a few small edits to the Shelob page today, and would really like to get this one out of start class and further up the quality scale. I was thinking of including information such as discrepancies between Tolkien's spider anatomy and actual spider anatomy (ie stinging vs fangs), further expansion of her relationship with various ME characters such as Gollum and Sauron, and expand on her role in the plot. Any opinions on the relevance of these or suggestions for inclusion?
I'd also like to move onto working on the Ungoliant page once I've got to work on Shelob (input appreciated on that also), and was wondering if there's a page anywhere about the Mirkwood Spiders? There doesn't seem to be anything specifically about them which seems odd, and if there isn't a page, I'd be willing to create one, as I think they're notable enough within The Hobbit to merit it. Might as well establish myself as the Weird Spider Geek on here as I have done in the real world... :) Faerie Queene ( talk) 04:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
There is currently an arbitration case in progress on how to behave in disputes over possibly non-notable fictional articles. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters/Workshop. This may be of interest to those working on merges and notability of articles edited by this Wikiproject. Carcharoth ( talk) 12:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Could someone deal with this please? I changed Elfwine to redirect to the father of the real-world person. I created Elfwine (Middle-earth), but most of the links are pointing to the wrong place. I'm away for a few days now, so could someone fix those please? Thanks. Carcharoth ( talk) 16:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I tried to change the article on Durin's Folk to include a link to Gimli, son of Glóin, son of Gróin, but somehow it was messed up. Fix the article, and try to link to Gimli, son of Glóin, son of Gróin. Sorry about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.152.239.101 ( talk) 23:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
How can Luthien be 43 664 years when she first met Beren, when Cirdan, who woke up at Cuivenen before Elwë met Melian, is 15 000 (or 36 000) years old at the time of the War of the Ring?? (For the age of Cirdan, see the Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%ADrdan)
marteljeanfrancois@hotmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.202.165.251 ( talk) 01:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know if anyone could look at the page for Caras Galadhon so that its notability tag could be removed.
I've worked on the page for a week and I think it's becoming pretty acceptable. Please let me know what you think. I would be very appreciated if you did that, please.
Superlost ( talk) 21:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone check "what links here" for these lot that I've created after some merges, and fix them?
Thanks. Carcharoth ( talk) 18:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there a coordinator for this Wikiproject? And should we start a role call for this month? Harland1 ( t/ c) 12:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)