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As most of you know, a lot of British-born professional golfers moved to America at the turn of the 20th Century. The national representation status of some of these golfers is ambiguous on Wikipedia. I think it would be good if we clarified their statuses. Below I have listed the nationality of certain golfers on the relevant major championship "winners" Wikipedia pages. (Only first and second place finishers are listed on these pages.) I have also provided information from the Open Championship "champions" page about the relevant golfers life history - this information seems pretty reliable.
Keep in mind, I have only included the most prominent examples here. There are, I think, dozens of other British-born golfers from this era who moved to America and have Wikipedia pages. I am not saying all - or even most - of these golfers have ambiguous statuses. However some may. There are also going to be some other tournament pages with ambiguity (e.g. Western Open).
Overall I hope the information I have provided gives a good sense of these inconsistencies.
Harry Vardon
Vardon was born and raised in Jersey but lived most of his adult life in England and represented England in international matches. The Open Championship classifies him as "English."
1896 Open Championship (England) - 1898 Open Championship (England) - 1899 Open Championship (England) - 1900 US Open (Jersey) - 1900 Open Championship (England) - 1901 Open Championship (England) - 1902 Open Championship (England) - 1903 Open Championship (England) - 1911 Open Championship (England) - 1912 Open Championship (England) - 1913 US Open (Jersey) - 1914 Open Championship (England) - 1920 US Open (Jersey)
Jock Hutchinson
He was born in Scotland but, by at least 1921, he was an American citizen.
1916 US Open (Scotland) - 1916 PGA Championship (Scotland/America) - 1920 US Open (America) - 1920 PGA Championship (Scotland/America) - 1921 Open Championship (America)
Ted Ray
Ray was born and raised in Jersey but lived most of his adult life in England and represented England in international matches. The Open Championship classifies him as "English."
1912 Open Championship (England) - 1913 US Open (Jersey) - 1913 Open Championship (England) - 1920 US Open (Jersey) - 1925 Open Championship (England)
Jim Barnes
Barnes was born in England but, by at least 1925, was an American citizen. The World Golf Hall of Fame's website states, however, though he moved to America in 1906 he never became an American citizen "remaining an intensely patriotic Cornishman."
1916 PGA Championship (England) - 1919 PGA Championship (England) - 1921 US Open (England) - 1921 PGA Championship (England) - 1922 Open Championship (America) - 1924 PGA Championship (England) - 1925 Open Championship (America)
Tommy Armour
Armour was born and raised in Scotland but was an American citizen by at least 1931.
1927 US Open (Scotland/America) - 1930 PGA Championship (Scotland/America) - 1931 Open Championship (America) - 1935 PGA Championship (Scotland/America)
Harry Cooper
There is no information about his national representation status on the Open Championship page as he never played in the event. However on his Wikipedia it states that he was born in England and then moved to America as a small child.
1927 US Open (Scotland/America) - 1936 Masters (England/America) - 1936 US Open (England/America) - 1938 Masters (England/America)
Given the international flavor of golf you'd think there'd be more problems like this in the modern era. I haven't noticed it though. Most very elite international golfers (e.g. Els, Poulter, Oosthuizen, Norman, McIlroy) have their permanent residences in the United States. However their national status is always the country they were born and raised in. Not once have I seen it deviate anywhere - on TV, the internet, Wikipedia, anywhere. There are, however, a few I'd like to mention.
- There are a few confusing situations in the mid-1900s era. Jim Ferrier was born and raised in Australia. He became an American citizen in 1944. The 1947 PGA Championship, 1950 Masters, and 1960 PGA Championship pages (he finished in first or second in all of them) lists him as Australian or, in the case of the last one, Australian/American. Meanwhile the 1964 Masters lists him exclusively as "American". Similarly, I have noticed some confusion re: Guy Wolstenholme: he was born in Britain but moved to Australia as an adult. The national rep statuses are not always consistent. Likewise with British-born Chris Williams who moved to South Africa.
- In very recent times there are some issues. South Africans Rory Sabbatini and Peter Karmis changed their status to qualify for the Olympics. There may be one of two more. We should make sure those are always up to date. Also, Mark McNulty picked up Irish citizenship in the past 15 years or so. That should always be clear.
Relatedly, I was thinking about creating a separate Wikipedia page to clarify those with ambiguous status.
Please let me know what you think about all of this.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 07:26, 6 December 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
I sometimes like to place national flags next to golfers name in golf tournament pages. However, the way I do it now is just copy and paste from other pages. Could someone explain to me how to create them the normal way? Also if someone could direct me to a wikipedia page that explain how to create things like this that would be great so then I could stop bugging people. Sincerely, Oogglywoogly ( talk) 03:31, 3 January 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
Syntax | Produces | Notes |
---|---|---|
{{ZAF}} or {{flagcountry|ZAF}} |
![]() |
The only time we'd use flagcountry instead of the shortcut template is for historical flags, as in the next row. |
{{flagcountry|ZAF|1928}} |
![]() |
This flag was used from May 31, 1928 until April 20, 1994, so it would be used for events that occurred in that timespan. The year used in the template has to be the flag's year of adoption, regardless of when the tournament occurred. |
{{flagicon|ZAF}} |
![]() |
|
{{flagicon|ZAF|1928}} |
![]() |
A summary of my understanding. Read Nigerian Open, 2nd paragraph. Despite being unreferenced this seems to basically correct (although I can't guarantee the dates or the Dai Rees bit). The comment by the editor says "Additions + amendment taken from the official PGA European Tour Guides of the time (which includes past winners) and some explanation of how it evolved." The Guardian for 17 Dec 1981 says "The ETPD also promotes the Safari Tour ..." which fits in. My reading of all this that the term "Safari Tour" referred to the tour organised by the European Tour while the term "Safari circuit" was used before the European Tour got involved (and indeed afterwards too) in a more general sense. It seems to me that a good system for us is to use the "Safari Tour" term only where we know that it relates to the European Tour promoted tour but to use "Safari circuit" when it wasn't or when we are uncertain.
While I'm unclear about the start of the Safari Tour, the end is somewhat clearer I think. The tour got OWGR points from the OWGR's inception in 1986, perhaps through it being regarded as a European Tour satellite tour. The following is a list of the events:
so during this period there were only the 5 different "opens", although there had been other different events in earlier seasons. The lack of the Nigerian/Ivory Coast opens in 1987 "Tour" perhaps relates to something reported in The Guardian for 28 Oct 1986 " Schofield revealed that the future of the Safari Tour is in the balance. The prize money for the Nigerian Open, played in the second week of February, has still not been paid, and the winner, Gordon Brand, is still waiting for his £16,000 first prize." The same two opens are missing from the early 1989 tour but they didn't miss a year being played in early 1988 and then in late 1989.
In 1990-91 the 5 events were also part of the 1991 Challenge Tour, and they were also in the 1992 Challenge Tour. The Zimbabwe and Ivory Coast events seem to have not taken place in early 1993 but the other 3 were part of the 1993 Challenge Tour. However these 3 did not get OWGR points. The reason seems to be because the Safari Tour had ceased to exist (Challenge Tour events didn't get OWGR points at the time). The Liverpool Echo for 25 Mar 1993 says "Spencer did well in the three-event swing over the old Safari Tour in Africa." It's true that there are odd articles that refer to the Safari Tour after this date but it seems that 1991-92 marked the end of the Safari Tour.
The Zimbabwe Open became a South African Tour event very quickly, November 1993, followed by the Zambia Open in December 1996. The other 3 also continued, perhaps as part of a Safari circuit. Nigej ( talk) 19:10, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
I am looking to make a page for the Asian Honda Classic, an Asian Tour event in Thailand that Tiger Woods won in 1997. This appears to be the only year it was held. However Steve Elkington won an event on the 1996 Asian Tour called the Honda Classic, also in Thailand. Are these tournaments the same event? I cannot find any evidence for it but there are many similarities.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 06:44, 17 October 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
To 51.6.160.76 and Nigej... last question... In 1995 there was an Asian Tour event in Thailand called the Asian PGA International. It was the first event ever on tour. Do you know if this is the same event as the 1996 and 97 event?
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 23:26, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
We don't have wiki pages for the South African Tour schedule from 1972/73 - 1999/00. I am interested in creating pages for this era. However there are some problems. I will go over certain roadblocks (or lack thereof) below, in a reverse chronological fashion:
1990/91 - 2006/07 Creating wiki pages for this era should be easy because all of the information is on the Sunshine Tour's website.
1986/87 - 1989/90 This era is doable because most tournaments, I think, are listed on OWGR's website (however not all).
1972/73 - 1985/86 This era will definitely be the hardest. First off I do not technically know if the tour actually began during the 1972/73 season - I am merely going off the Order of Merit wiki page which does not have citations. Otherwise, we have a lot of wiki pages for events during this period (e.g. South African Open, General Motors Open, Schoeman Park Open) however it is difficult to know for certain whether these events were officially South African Tour events or not. I would strongly assume so given that these events all had top players and international media coverage however I don't have any hard evidence. In the Glasgow Herald articles they do not mention anything like "South African Tour." In the Google News newspapers archive, doing some cursory searches, I cannot find any South African newspapers. So I'm not sure what to do... any ideas? The only things I can think of are: 1) if someone can somehow get digital access to South African newspapers; 2) if someone has Sunshine Tour employee contact information that could lead us in the right direction (or provide us with primary sources).
Thanks, Oogglywoogly ( talk) 22:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
As most of you know, a lot of British-born professional golfers moved to America at the turn of the 20th Century. The national representation status of some of these golfers is ambiguous on Wikipedia. I think it would be good if we clarified their statuses. Below I have listed the nationality of certain golfers on the relevant major championship "winners" Wikipedia pages. (Only first and second place finishers are listed on these pages.) I have also provided information from the Open Championship "champions" page about the relevant golfers life history - this information seems pretty reliable.
Keep in mind, I have only included the most prominent examples here. There are, I think, dozens of other British-born golfers from this era who moved to America and have Wikipedia pages. I am not saying all - or even most - of these golfers have ambiguous statuses. However some may. There are also going to be some other tournament pages with ambiguity (e.g. Western Open).
Overall I hope the information I have provided gives a good sense of these inconsistencies.
Harry Vardon
Vardon was born and raised in Jersey but lived most of his adult life in England and represented England in international matches. The Open Championship classifies him as "English."
1896 Open Championship (England) - 1898 Open Championship (England) - 1899 Open Championship (England) - 1900 US Open (Jersey) - 1900 Open Championship (England) - 1901 Open Championship (England) - 1902 Open Championship (England) - 1903 Open Championship (England) - 1911 Open Championship (England) - 1912 Open Championship (England) - 1913 US Open (Jersey) - 1914 Open Championship (England) - 1920 US Open (Jersey)
Jock Hutchinson
He was born in Scotland but, by at least 1921, he was an American citizen.
1916 US Open (Scotland) - 1916 PGA Championship (Scotland/America) - 1920 US Open (America) - 1920 PGA Championship (Scotland/America) - 1921 Open Championship (America)
Ted Ray
Ray was born and raised in Jersey but lived most of his adult life in England and represented England in international matches. The Open Championship classifies him as "English."
1912 Open Championship (England) - 1913 US Open (Jersey) - 1913 Open Championship (England) - 1920 US Open (Jersey) - 1925 Open Championship (England)
Jim Barnes
Barnes was born in England but, by at least 1925, was an American citizen. The World Golf Hall of Fame's website states, however, though he moved to America in 1906 he never became an American citizen "remaining an intensely patriotic Cornishman."
1916 PGA Championship (England) - 1919 PGA Championship (England) - 1921 US Open (England) - 1921 PGA Championship (England) - 1922 Open Championship (America) - 1924 PGA Championship (England) - 1925 Open Championship (America)
Tommy Armour
Armour was born and raised in Scotland but was an American citizen by at least 1931.
1927 US Open (Scotland/America) - 1930 PGA Championship (Scotland/America) - 1931 Open Championship (America) - 1935 PGA Championship (Scotland/America)
Harry Cooper
There is no information about his national representation status on the Open Championship page as he never played in the event. However on his Wikipedia it states that he was born in England and then moved to America as a small child.
1927 US Open (Scotland/America) - 1936 Masters (England/America) - 1936 US Open (England/America) - 1938 Masters (England/America)
Given the international flavor of golf you'd think there'd be more problems like this in the modern era. I haven't noticed it though. Most very elite international golfers (e.g. Els, Poulter, Oosthuizen, Norman, McIlroy) have their permanent residences in the United States. However their national status is always the country they were born and raised in. Not once have I seen it deviate anywhere - on TV, the internet, Wikipedia, anywhere. There are, however, a few I'd like to mention.
- There are a few confusing situations in the mid-1900s era. Jim Ferrier was born and raised in Australia. He became an American citizen in 1944. The 1947 PGA Championship, 1950 Masters, and 1960 PGA Championship pages (he finished in first or second in all of them) lists him as Australian or, in the case of the last one, Australian/American. Meanwhile the 1964 Masters lists him exclusively as "American". Similarly, I have noticed some confusion re: Guy Wolstenholme: he was born in Britain but moved to Australia as an adult. The national rep statuses are not always consistent. Likewise with British-born Chris Williams who moved to South Africa.
- In very recent times there are some issues. South Africans Rory Sabbatini and Peter Karmis changed their status to qualify for the Olympics. There may be one of two more. We should make sure those are always up to date. Also, Mark McNulty picked up Irish citizenship in the past 15 years or so. That should always be clear.
Relatedly, I was thinking about creating a separate Wikipedia page to clarify those with ambiguous status.
Please let me know what you think about all of this.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 07:26, 6 December 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
I sometimes like to place national flags next to golfers name in golf tournament pages. However, the way I do it now is just copy and paste from other pages. Could someone explain to me how to create them the normal way? Also if someone could direct me to a wikipedia page that explain how to create things like this that would be great so then I could stop bugging people. Sincerely, Oogglywoogly ( talk) 03:31, 3 January 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
Syntax | Produces | Notes |
---|---|---|
{{ZAF}} or {{flagcountry|ZAF}} |
![]() |
The only time we'd use flagcountry instead of the shortcut template is for historical flags, as in the next row. |
{{flagcountry|ZAF|1928}} |
![]() |
This flag was used from May 31, 1928 until April 20, 1994, so it would be used for events that occurred in that timespan. The year used in the template has to be the flag's year of adoption, regardless of when the tournament occurred. |
{{flagicon|ZAF}} |
![]() |
|
{{flagicon|ZAF|1928}} |
![]() |
A summary of my understanding. Read Nigerian Open, 2nd paragraph. Despite being unreferenced this seems to basically correct (although I can't guarantee the dates or the Dai Rees bit). The comment by the editor says "Additions + amendment taken from the official PGA European Tour Guides of the time (which includes past winners) and some explanation of how it evolved." The Guardian for 17 Dec 1981 says "The ETPD also promotes the Safari Tour ..." which fits in. My reading of all this that the term "Safari Tour" referred to the tour organised by the European Tour while the term "Safari circuit" was used before the European Tour got involved (and indeed afterwards too) in a more general sense. It seems to me that a good system for us is to use the "Safari Tour" term only where we know that it relates to the European Tour promoted tour but to use "Safari circuit" when it wasn't or when we are uncertain.
While I'm unclear about the start of the Safari Tour, the end is somewhat clearer I think. The tour got OWGR points from the OWGR's inception in 1986, perhaps through it being regarded as a European Tour satellite tour. The following is a list of the events:
so during this period there were only the 5 different "opens", although there had been other different events in earlier seasons. The lack of the Nigerian/Ivory Coast opens in 1987 "Tour" perhaps relates to something reported in The Guardian for 28 Oct 1986 " Schofield revealed that the future of the Safari Tour is in the balance. The prize money for the Nigerian Open, played in the second week of February, has still not been paid, and the winner, Gordon Brand, is still waiting for his £16,000 first prize." The same two opens are missing from the early 1989 tour but they didn't miss a year being played in early 1988 and then in late 1989.
In 1990-91 the 5 events were also part of the 1991 Challenge Tour, and they were also in the 1992 Challenge Tour. The Zimbabwe and Ivory Coast events seem to have not taken place in early 1993 but the other 3 were part of the 1993 Challenge Tour. However these 3 did not get OWGR points. The reason seems to be because the Safari Tour had ceased to exist (Challenge Tour events didn't get OWGR points at the time). The Liverpool Echo for 25 Mar 1993 says "Spencer did well in the three-event swing over the old Safari Tour in Africa." It's true that there are odd articles that refer to the Safari Tour after this date but it seems that 1991-92 marked the end of the Safari Tour.
The Zimbabwe Open became a South African Tour event very quickly, November 1993, followed by the Zambia Open in December 1996. The other 3 also continued, perhaps as part of a Safari circuit. Nigej ( talk) 19:10, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
I am looking to make a page for the Asian Honda Classic, an Asian Tour event in Thailand that Tiger Woods won in 1997. This appears to be the only year it was held. However Steve Elkington won an event on the 1996 Asian Tour called the Honda Classic, also in Thailand. Are these tournaments the same event? I cannot find any evidence for it but there are many similarities.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 06:44, 17 October 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
To 51.6.160.76 and Nigej... last question... In 1995 there was an Asian Tour event in Thailand called the Asian PGA International. It was the first event ever on tour. Do you know if this is the same event as the 1996 and 97 event?
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 23:26, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
We don't have wiki pages for the South African Tour schedule from 1972/73 - 1999/00. I am interested in creating pages for this era. However there are some problems. I will go over certain roadblocks (or lack thereof) below, in a reverse chronological fashion:
1990/91 - 2006/07 Creating wiki pages for this era should be easy because all of the information is on the Sunshine Tour's website.
1986/87 - 1989/90 This era is doable because most tournaments, I think, are listed on OWGR's website (however not all).
1972/73 - 1985/86 This era will definitely be the hardest. First off I do not technically know if the tour actually began during the 1972/73 season - I am merely going off the Order of Merit wiki page which does not have citations. Otherwise, we have a lot of wiki pages for events during this period (e.g. South African Open, General Motors Open, Schoeman Park Open) however it is difficult to know for certain whether these events were officially South African Tour events or not. I would strongly assume so given that these events all had top players and international media coverage however I don't have any hard evidence. In the Glasgow Herald articles they do not mention anything like "South African Tour." In the Google News newspapers archive, doing some cursory searches, I cannot find any South African newspapers. So I'm not sure what to do... any ideas? The only things I can think of are: 1) if someone can somehow get digital access to South African newspapers; 2) if someone has Sunshine Tour employee contact information that could lead us in the right direction (or provide us with primary sources).
Thanks, Oogglywoogly ( talk) 22:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Oogglywoogly