This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
In some biographies pre-recognised/organised tour wins have selectively been grouped together under a misleading or wrong "country/regional circuit" sub-section (e.g. Neil Coles, Peter Townsend (golfer), Peter Oosterhuis). Even worse is "Important European wins" (e.g. Peter Butler (golfer)) – which seems to be clear-cut WP:OR. On occasion such changes have been reverted but in many others, it seems to have been accepted.
Taking the case of GB&I/Europe as an example... No all-European circuit is officially recognised before 1972, and even this was only done in retrospect (unclear exactly when) because it was the first year the British PGA included most (but not all) of the big European opens in their Order of Merit; indeed there remained no unified "Order of Merit" until 1977 when the PGA TPD & CTPA merged. Although there do exist news reports using phrases like "European circuit" and "British and European circuit", it is always used in a very vague sense without any definition as to what it means or by what criteria tournaments are included – what definition/criteria are we using and is it consistent? Since players were classified on their respective Order of Merit, it seems that if there is a need to organise pre-1972 wins into their own sub-sections, "British PGA Circuit wins" or "Continental European Circuit wins" would be more appropriate.
However since it may be difficult (or impossible) to reliably source such classification of all, especially pre-Internet, tournaments (e.g. the standing of tournaments could change from one year to the next; not all major tournaments in GB&I were recognised by the PGA and not all PGA circuit events counted for the Order of Merit; some tournaments in Colombia & Venezuela were part of the Caribbean Tour rather than the South American circuit; not all tournaments in/around the Caribbean were part of the "Caribbean Tour") it may be better to revert to "Other wins" (or just "Pro wins" in the absence of any official tour wins) as remains the case on other articles. Thoughts? 51.6.161.113 ( talk) 20:28, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
Yet again we have a European Tour winner with a somewhat confusing name. Obviously since he's Australian the normal rules for Korean names don't apply. Sources (including his own Instagram account consistently have his name as two words, whereas his sister Minjee is always written as one word. That discrepancy bugs me a little, but it looks like there's consensus that it's Min Woo. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 06:27, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
I'm struggling with Frank Nobilo's win in the 1987 New Zealand PGA Championship. It appears in the official list: https://pga.org.au/report/?tourn=1031&report=https://pga-live.pga-tic.com/tic/tmcrsts.cgi?tourn=1031~season=2019~alphaorder~&class=aus and in various other places but I've been unable to find out anything about it. Nobilo definitely won at the end of 1985: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qQEUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FJUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2294%2C208546 We have eg this from early 1991 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/122338578 "Nobilo, a two-time New Zealand PGA winner" but a Guardian article from August 1988 says he "had not won for three years, when he was New Zealand PGA Champion". Seems it wasn't a tour event, perhaps something quite minor. I'm wondering whether it happened at all. Nigej ( talk) 11:22, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
It states on David Graham's wiki page that he won the 1977 South African PGA Championship. But it states on the tournament's page that John Bland won the event. It also states on Bland's page that he won. It also states on Bland's PGA Tour page that he won the event. Although I could not find a primary source stating that Bland won I have one from the New York Times stating he led after the second round.
It does state on Graham's PGA Tour page that he won the event. I believe that's the source for his "win" on his wiki page. However, like recently noticed issues with Roberto de Vicenzo and Gary Player's page, it is probably a mistake. Thoughts?
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 00:11, 18 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 20:23, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
Would someone mind taking a look though this, please? I think I've managed to give a basic outline of everything. However, does anyone have any definitive info regarding the last few years of this tour (1995 onwards, but especially 1998 & 1999) as available media coverage is sketchy at best and often confuses the two Asian tours – argh! Dumping ground for research here: User:Wjemather/Asia Golf Circuit. Thanks. wjemather please leave a message... 12:47, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Adding WGC timelines was questionable, but I think we're really crossing the WP:NOTEVERYTHING line with this one. wjemather please leave a message... 11:20, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
Worth reading this https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/51709473 from today's BBC news which is relevant to this topic. Nigej ( talk) 10:27, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
There is some ambiguity regarding Tommy Aaron's victory at the 1969 Canadian Open (golf). It states on his wiki page that it is one of three PGA Tour wins. Also, on our 1969 PGA Tour page it states the Canadian Open was part of the official calendar.
However, it appears that our sites are wrong and that it was not an official event that season. It does not state anywhere on Aaron's PGA Tour page that it was an official event. Rather, it is under "Additional Victories." In addition, there are a number of reliable third-party sources that state it was not an official event at the time. For example here and here and here and here. I can also recall seeing an article (I cannot find it now) that quoted Aaron as stating his Atlanta Classic win was his first PGA Tour win. (That event was in 1970.)
So it looks like it wasn't an official event. I have no idea why as I checked the PGA Tour.com profiles of all of the winners of that event during the era. For all of them it states it was an official win. Also, Aaron beat Sam Snead in a playoff and the purse was substantial.
Lastly, I noticed on the 1969 PGA Tour schedule that the Canadian Open was competing with the American Golf Classic, an official event in Ohio. Not sure what to make of it but that the only year in the era where the Canadian Open was opposite another PGA Tour event.
So it looks like we should change it. Thoughts?
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 21:38, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
It appears the PGA Tour has recently changed what wins count. Billy Casper's bio says he has 51 wins, but only 48 are listed; the 1965 and 1969 Bob Hope Desert Classics and the 1969 Alcan Open are gone. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 17:58, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
We have odd references to a set of four of the more important events in Japan being "major" in some sense. See Japan Golf Tour Championship#JGT major golf championships and {{ Japan Golf Tour Events}}. I'm struggling to confirm that this is based on anything official. Or has someone simply made it up. Nigej ( talk) 22:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
I'm planning to move Golf Nippon Series JT Cup to Golf Nippon Series or something similar. JT is Japan Tobacco, so in line with our normal practice we shouldn't have it in the article title where we can avoid it. Nigej ( talk) 08:46, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Here https://www.newspapers.com/clip/47009219/the-sacramento-bee/ Al Besselink says "I'm 57, and going on 58, which I will be on June 10. I was born in 1923" Now https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/178793594 seems to have a note of a death on "10 Apr 2017 (aged 93)" of Albert C. Besselink born 10 Jun 1923. Not sure whether we missed his death or is the note of his death incorrect or a different person (which seems unlikely)? 4-time winner on the PGA Tour. Nigej ( talk) 16:22, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
The findagrave information comes from the United States Department of Veterans Affairs website here: https://catalog.data.gov/dataset/gravesite-locations-of-veterans-and-beneficiaries-in-florida-as-of-may-2019 The download file is large, 333,411 entries. Albert C Besselink is entry number 301,071: born Jun 10, 1923 died Apr 10, 2017. Corporal in the US Army in World War II. Nigej ( talk) 10:05, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Unlike other tours "most wins" lists, this one seems to be unverifiable and a clear violation of WP:OR with obviously invented but unclear and contradictory criteria for inclusion – from the prose it could be any combination of the following:
Before it goes to AfD, does anyone think there is any way this list can be sourced? Or can clear verifiable criteria be determined to define what events qualify for inclusion, so it can be rewritten and sourced? wjemather please leave a message... 17:55, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 19:55, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
This year's PGA Tour page and European Tour page have different ways of listing the cancellations and postponements. The European Tour page has them at the top of the schedule, and the PGA Tour page has them down inside the schedule in chronological order. Should we have them be the same for consistency? Or leave each of them as they are? Johnsmith2116 ( talk) 05:01, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
There is supposed to be a decision, in no more than a month, on whether the 2020 Summer Olympics in Japan will be postponed. If the postponement happens, obviously it can't be a short delay. The delay would likely need to be a full year. And that would mean that the Summer Olympics and next Winter Olympics would be seven months apart. But then again, personally I'd like to see China stripped of the hosting duties of the 2022 Winter Olympics. This thing China has put on the world is flipping our lives upside down, and when you add into it all the cheating they have done, the human rights violations, and the air pollution, it would be a real shame if China will be allowed to keep the 2022 Winter games. Either enable a different country to host in 2022 if there is enough time to prepare, or simply cancel the 2022 Games altogether. Johnsmith2116 ( talk) 22:11, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
And get the WGC HSBC Champions out of China! Johnsmith2116 ( talk) 22:13, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
And now someone has gone through and changed the articles for this year's majors on the assumption that the Opens are both played as scheduled and the PGA and Masters (in that order) are played later in the year. Seems premature. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 18:42, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
Sky Sports News is reporting that the governing bodies have a plan for holding the majors, which is waiting for the R&A to confirm if they are going ahead, delaying or cancelling the Open.
Open goes ahead as planed:
Open delayed:
Open cancelled:
Jopal22 ( talk) 13:17, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
There's a report that a PGA Tour executive who oversees player activity is the first PGA Tour employee to have tested positive for the virus. The article didn't mention a name, apparently. Johnsmith2116 ( talk) 20:51, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
Ross Berlin is the name I found. He's the tour's senior vice president of player affairs. Johnsmith2116 ( talk) 21:05, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
Please see discussion here: Talk:Men's major golf championships#Major championship winners section. Thanks. wjemather please leave a message... 21:51, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
The Woodlawn Tournament (aka Woodlawn Open/Invitational/International, Ramstein Open, among other things) ran for 11 years (1958–68) and was one of the richest in Europe when it was founded. I've managed to find details/news reports for all but one edition ( compiled here)... Since I'm not keen on moving incomplete things into article space, is there any chance someone knows or can find the details for 1967? Thanks. wjemather please leave a message... 22:15, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Category:Caddie Hall of Fame inductees has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. wjemather please leave a message... 18:21, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Golf Channel is reporting that the Korn Ferry Tour's 2020 and 2021 seasons will be combined. As part of this, the 2020 Finals events will be converted to regular KFT events. Also in addition to the already-known tournament at Dye's Valley, another new Florida event will replace Wichita; Colorado will be moved up one week, while the following two weeks will be taken by tournaments at two different TPC San Antonio courses (displacing Lincoln Land). GC's source is a memo sent to players. Apparently a more complete KFT schedule will be released Monday; no clue whether that release will extend into the 2021 events. Apparently the eligibility structure for the 2021–22 PGA Tour season will be markedly different, but that will have a smaller effect on our articles. (Of course, everything is still subject to change.) pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 02:36, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
As the PGA Tour announced recently that they will be sanctioning 'The Match: Champions for Charity', I have added it to the unofficial events section of the 2019-20 PGA Tour page. The question is; does it need a new page created for it or is it deemed as a 'Part 2' of the Tiger vs Phil match? i.e. 'Champions for Charity' should just be added onto the already existing page for 'The Match'. Let me know what you think. Thanks. Jimmymci234 ( talk) 11:26, 8 May 2020 (UTC) 11:26, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Please see discussion at Talk:Fort Worth Invitational#Requested move 9 May 2020. Thanks. wjemather please leave a message... 10:45, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
I was looking to make a page on the Jamaica Open. I only have one reliable source however, for Bob Shaw's 1975 win. There is information on Norman Wood's page that he won the 1973 event and on Bruce Fleisher's page that he won the 1990 event. However, there are no citations.
There is evidence that the event has been held quite a bit. On these websites it says the event has been held at least 52 times now. If you guys have more information to demonstrate that this is a notable event that would be helpful.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 01:42, 4 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
There appear to be two satellite events on the 1969 PGA Tour page but are presented as official events. They are the Indian Ridge Hospital Open Invitational, held in my home state of Massachusetts, and the West End Classic, held late in the year in the Bahamas. Unless I am presented with contrary evidence I will either delete them from the 1969 calendar or place them in a separate section.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 03:17, 10 March 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
I was looking to make a page for the Endagine Open, an event in Switzerland during the 1960s. Right now, however, I do not have enough information to create a page.
It states on Neil Coles's wiki page that he won the event in 1963. I also have a reliable third-party source stating that Randall Vines won the 1969 event. But that's it. (And the article itself is about the 1972 Australian PGA - it only mentions the Endagine victory in passing.)
So I don't really think I have enough information to create a page. Do you guys have any more information about there?
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 20:46, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
I remember you commented a couple of months ago about how OWGR, in general, was not "equitable" for non-PGA Tour golfers, especially those outside of the top 25. I apologize for not responding back then - it seemed like a very thoughtful comment and I thought it would take a while to formulate a response... then I kind of just forgot about it. I don't mean to keep on beating a dead horse but I think the OWGR ranking is a very important part of WikiProject Golf. I believe this conversation should continue until we reach a consensus. Beneath is my response.
The most well-known study of OWGR is called the Broadie-Rendleman study. It was produced by Professor Mark Broadie at Columbia University and Professor Richard Rendleman at Dartmouth University in 2012. A copy of the study is here. Golf Digest also ran a story around the same time the study was published it. It is here. Their conclusion is that OWGR is specifically biased PGA Tour pros. Their data manifests a numbers of things:
- the average PGA Tour player is ranked 31 positions lower that he should be
- Nick Watney, despite outplaying Japan Golf Tour pro Yuta Ikeda in 10/12 events, was ranked virtually the same as Ikeda over this time period.
- The flagship events for international tours get way more points than they should relative to strength of field
- at the 2010 Madeira Island Open, perhaps the weakest event on the European Tour, the winner received more points than a man who received solo 5th at the Masters.
- the authors quote a man named Capelle who states: "the secret to becoming one of the top 50 players in the world...: play on a foreign circuit."
I would also like to note that in the article that PGA Tour employees state that the top 20 on the PGA Tour is well represented. So we can agree on that. Contrary to your hypothesis, however, the authors of the article believe the remainder of OWGR slots are not equitably dispensed between PGA Tour golfers and international golfers. So it appears that, upon rigorous analysis, OWGR is specifically biased against PGA Tour players ranked outside of the top 25.
I am also including Nigej in this discussion as he is in charge of WikiProject Golf's OWGR stuff. I hope this is the beginning of a fruitful discussion.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 03:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogy
Does anyone have a list on all of the players that have graduated from PGA Tour Qualifying School? On our wiki page, PGA Tour Qualifying Tournament, we have a very detailed list of players who graduated to the PGA Tour from 1990-2012. However, the school started in 1965.
This is especially important to me as I intend to create a wiki page of all players who have joined tour in the modern era. If someone has access to newspapers.com that may seriously help out.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 03:20, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
1) How do I create the "Dead Link" citation? For a lot of major championship links this is relevant.
2) How do I create the "Categories" section at the bottom on Wiki pages?
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 05:07, 15 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
I have a number of miscellaneous questions that have been building up the past year. If anyone could help me answer them that would be great. They are below:
1) What was the money list/order of merit threshold to earn membership status for the next year? On the PGA Tour, starting in the 1960s or so, I think it began as top 60 on money list and then evolved into the top 125 during the 1980s. However I don't have any hard evidence for this.
As of 1972, it appears that the early European Tour (or British PGA) they had a threshold of top 50. The evidence I have is here. I actually have no hard evidence after this date what their threshold was. I believe now it around top 125 on the Dubai points list - but even that I'm not too sure of.
This is important because when I write articles about journeyman golfers this OoM threshold comes up quite frequently. For a while I assumed it was always top 125 (or close to that) but have realized more recently that this is probably not the case. (Specifically this came up in writing articles for Manuel Ballesteros and Nathaniel Crosby.) If anyone could provide more information that would be great.
2) Is there a way to determine the playing status of a retired golfer during certain seasons of their career? (For contemporary golfers it is clear on the website - under "Exempt Status." I am more concerned about retired golfers.) I usually assume if they have played at least 17 events in a season that they had full-time status. However I never know for sure. If you guys have any information on European Tour golfers too that would be helpful.
3) Finally, does anyone have good information about the the sequence of rounds during events in the mid-late 20th century. I am under the impression that many deviated from the Thursday-Sunday, one round a day norm. That is, some went Friday-one round, Saturday-one round, Sunday-two rounds. I know the British Open went Wednesday-Saturday, one round each day through the 70s or so. This came up when writing articles about players who seriously competed at the 1976 New South Wales PGA Championship. After reading the primary source for this tournament several times I am under the impression that the final two rounds were played on Sunday. (However I still do not know for sure and have avoided referring to the daily sequence of rounds in these articles.) I think they were other Australian/New Zealand tournaments from this era that may have utilized this sequence.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 04:12, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
In some biographies pre-recognised/organised tour wins have selectively been grouped together under a misleading or wrong "country/regional circuit" sub-section (e.g. Neil Coles, Peter Townsend (golfer), Peter Oosterhuis). Even worse is "Important European wins" (e.g. Peter Butler (golfer)) – which seems to be clear-cut WP:OR. On occasion such changes have been reverted but in many others, it seems to have been accepted.
Taking the case of GB&I/Europe as an example... No all-European circuit is officially recognised before 1972, and even this was only done in retrospect (unclear exactly when) because it was the first year the British PGA included most (but not all) of the big European opens in their Order of Merit; indeed there remained no unified "Order of Merit" until 1977 when the PGA TPD & CTPA merged. Although there do exist news reports using phrases like "European circuit" and "British and European circuit", it is always used in a very vague sense without any definition as to what it means or by what criteria tournaments are included – what definition/criteria are we using and is it consistent? Since players were classified on their respective Order of Merit, it seems that if there is a need to organise pre-1972 wins into their own sub-sections, "British PGA Circuit wins" or "Continental European Circuit wins" would be more appropriate.
However since it may be difficult (or impossible) to reliably source such classification of all, especially pre-Internet, tournaments (e.g. the standing of tournaments could change from one year to the next; not all major tournaments in GB&I were recognised by the PGA and not all PGA circuit events counted for the Order of Merit; some tournaments in Colombia & Venezuela were part of the Caribbean Tour rather than the South American circuit; not all tournaments in/around the Caribbean were part of the "Caribbean Tour") it may be better to revert to "Other wins" (or just "Pro wins" in the absence of any official tour wins) as remains the case on other articles. Thoughts? 51.6.161.113 ( talk) 20:28, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
Yet again we have a European Tour winner with a somewhat confusing name. Obviously since he's Australian the normal rules for Korean names don't apply. Sources (including his own Instagram account consistently have his name as two words, whereas his sister Minjee is always written as one word. That discrepancy bugs me a little, but it looks like there's consensus that it's Min Woo. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 06:27, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
I'm struggling with Frank Nobilo's win in the 1987 New Zealand PGA Championship. It appears in the official list: https://pga.org.au/report/?tourn=1031&report=https://pga-live.pga-tic.com/tic/tmcrsts.cgi?tourn=1031~season=2019~alphaorder~&class=aus and in various other places but I've been unable to find out anything about it. Nobilo definitely won at the end of 1985: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qQEUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FJUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2294%2C208546 We have eg this from early 1991 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/122338578 "Nobilo, a two-time New Zealand PGA winner" but a Guardian article from August 1988 says he "had not won for three years, when he was New Zealand PGA Champion". Seems it wasn't a tour event, perhaps something quite minor. I'm wondering whether it happened at all. Nigej ( talk) 11:22, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
It states on David Graham's wiki page that he won the 1977 South African PGA Championship. But it states on the tournament's page that John Bland won the event. It also states on Bland's page that he won. It also states on Bland's PGA Tour page that he won the event. Although I could not find a primary source stating that Bland won I have one from the New York Times stating he led after the second round.
It does state on Graham's PGA Tour page that he won the event. I believe that's the source for his "win" on his wiki page. However, like recently noticed issues with Roberto de Vicenzo and Gary Player's page, it is probably a mistake. Thoughts?
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 00:11, 18 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 20:23, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
Would someone mind taking a look though this, please? I think I've managed to give a basic outline of everything. However, does anyone have any definitive info regarding the last few years of this tour (1995 onwards, but especially 1998 & 1999) as available media coverage is sketchy at best and often confuses the two Asian tours – argh! Dumping ground for research here: User:Wjemather/Asia Golf Circuit. Thanks. wjemather please leave a message... 12:47, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Adding WGC timelines was questionable, but I think we're really crossing the WP:NOTEVERYTHING line with this one. wjemather please leave a message... 11:20, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
Worth reading this https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/51709473 from today's BBC news which is relevant to this topic. Nigej ( talk) 10:27, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
There is some ambiguity regarding Tommy Aaron's victory at the 1969 Canadian Open (golf). It states on his wiki page that it is one of three PGA Tour wins. Also, on our 1969 PGA Tour page it states the Canadian Open was part of the official calendar.
However, it appears that our sites are wrong and that it was not an official event that season. It does not state anywhere on Aaron's PGA Tour page that it was an official event. Rather, it is under "Additional Victories." In addition, there are a number of reliable third-party sources that state it was not an official event at the time. For example here and here and here and here. I can also recall seeing an article (I cannot find it now) that quoted Aaron as stating his Atlanta Classic win was his first PGA Tour win. (That event was in 1970.)
So it looks like it wasn't an official event. I have no idea why as I checked the PGA Tour.com profiles of all of the winners of that event during the era. For all of them it states it was an official win. Also, Aaron beat Sam Snead in a playoff and the purse was substantial.
Lastly, I noticed on the 1969 PGA Tour schedule that the Canadian Open was competing with the American Golf Classic, an official event in Ohio. Not sure what to make of it but that the only year in the era where the Canadian Open was opposite another PGA Tour event.
So it looks like we should change it. Thoughts?
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 21:38, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
It appears the PGA Tour has recently changed what wins count. Billy Casper's bio says he has 51 wins, but only 48 are listed; the 1965 and 1969 Bob Hope Desert Classics and the 1969 Alcan Open are gone. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 17:58, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
We have odd references to a set of four of the more important events in Japan being "major" in some sense. See Japan Golf Tour Championship#JGT major golf championships and {{ Japan Golf Tour Events}}. I'm struggling to confirm that this is based on anything official. Or has someone simply made it up. Nigej ( talk) 22:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
I'm planning to move Golf Nippon Series JT Cup to Golf Nippon Series or something similar. JT is Japan Tobacco, so in line with our normal practice we shouldn't have it in the article title where we can avoid it. Nigej ( talk) 08:46, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Here https://www.newspapers.com/clip/47009219/the-sacramento-bee/ Al Besselink says "I'm 57, and going on 58, which I will be on June 10. I was born in 1923" Now https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/178793594 seems to have a note of a death on "10 Apr 2017 (aged 93)" of Albert C. Besselink born 10 Jun 1923. Not sure whether we missed his death or is the note of his death incorrect or a different person (which seems unlikely)? 4-time winner on the PGA Tour. Nigej ( talk) 16:22, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
The findagrave information comes from the United States Department of Veterans Affairs website here: https://catalog.data.gov/dataset/gravesite-locations-of-veterans-and-beneficiaries-in-florida-as-of-may-2019 The download file is large, 333,411 entries. Albert C Besselink is entry number 301,071: born Jun 10, 1923 died Apr 10, 2017. Corporal in the US Army in World War II. Nigej ( talk) 10:05, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Unlike other tours "most wins" lists, this one seems to be unverifiable and a clear violation of WP:OR with obviously invented but unclear and contradictory criteria for inclusion – from the prose it could be any combination of the following:
Before it goes to AfD, does anyone think there is any way this list can be sourced? Or can clear verifiable criteria be determined to define what events qualify for inclusion, so it can be rewritten and sourced? wjemather please leave a message... 17:55, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 19:55, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
This year's PGA Tour page and European Tour page have different ways of listing the cancellations and postponements. The European Tour page has them at the top of the schedule, and the PGA Tour page has them down inside the schedule in chronological order. Should we have them be the same for consistency? Or leave each of them as they are? Johnsmith2116 ( talk) 05:01, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
There is supposed to be a decision, in no more than a month, on whether the 2020 Summer Olympics in Japan will be postponed. If the postponement happens, obviously it can't be a short delay. The delay would likely need to be a full year. And that would mean that the Summer Olympics and next Winter Olympics would be seven months apart. But then again, personally I'd like to see China stripped of the hosting duties of the 2022 Winter Olympics. This thing China has put on the world is flipping our lives upside down, and when you add into it all the cheating they have done, the human rights violations, and the air pollution, it would be a real shame if China will be allowed to keep the 2022 Winter games. Either enable a different country to host in 2022 if there is enough time to prepare, or simply cancel the 2022 Games altogether. Johnsmith2116 ( talk) 22:11, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
And get the WGC HSBC Champions out of China! Johnsmith2116 ( talk) 22:13, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
And now someone has gone through and changed the articles for this year's majors on the assumption that the Opens are both played as scheduled and the PGA and Masters (in that order) are played later in the year. Seems premature. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 18:42, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
Sky Sports News is reporting that the governing bodies have a plan for holding the majors, which is waiting for the R&A to confirm if they are going ahead, delaying or cancelling the Open.
Open goes ahead as planed:
Open delayed:
Open cancelled:
Jopal22 ( talk) 13:17, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
There's a report that a PGA Tour executive who oversees player activity is the first PGA Tour employee to have tested positive for the virus. The article didn't mention a name, apparently. Johnsmith2116 ( talk) 20:51, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
Ross Berlin is the name I found. He's the tour's senior vice president of player affairs. Johnsmith2116 ( talk) 21:05, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
Please see discussion here: Talk:Men's major golf championships#Major championship winners section. Thanks. wjemather please leave a message... 21:51, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
The Woodlawn Tournament (aka Woodlawn Open/Invitational/International, Ramstein Open, among other things) ran for 11 years (1958–68) and was one of the richest in Europe when it was founded. I've managed to find details/news reports for all but one edition ( compiled here)... Since I'm not keen on moving incomplete things into article space, is there any chance someone knows or can find the details for 1967? Thanks. wjemather please leave a message... 22:15, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Category:Caddie Hall of Fame inductees has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. wjemather please leave a message... 18:21, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Golf Channel is reporting that the Korn Ferry Tour's 2020 and 2021 seasons will be combined. As part of this, the 2020 Finals events will be converted to regular KFT events. Also in addition to the already-known tournament at Dye's Valley, another new Florida event will replace Wichita; Colorado will be moved up one week, while the following two weeks will be taken by tournaments at two different TPC San Antonio courses (displacing Lincoln Land). GC's source is a memo sent to players. Apparently a more complete KFT schedule will be released Monday; no clue whether that release will extend into the 2021 events. Apparently the eligibility structure for the 2021–22 PGA Tour season will be markedly different, but that will have a smaller effect on our articles. (Of course, everything is still subject to change.) pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 02:36, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
As the PGA Tour announced recently that they will be sanctioning 'The Match: Champions for Charity', I have added it to the unofficial events section of the 2019-20 PGA Tour page. The question is; does it need a new page created for it or is it deemed as a 'Part 2' of the Tiger vs Phil match? i.e. 'Champions for Charity' should just be added onto the already existing page for 'The Match'. Let me know what you think. Thanks. Jimmymci234 ( talk) 11:26, 8 May 2020 (UTC) 11:26, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Please see discussion at Talk:Fort Worth Invitational#Requested move 9 May 2020. Thanks. wjemather please leave a message... 10:45, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
I was looking to make a page on the Jamaica Open. I only have one reliable source however, for Bob Shaw's 1975 win. There is information on Norman Wood's page that he won the 1973 event and on Bruce Fleisher's page that he won the 1990 event. However, there are no citations.
There is evidence that the event has been held quite a bit. On these websites it says the event has been held at least 52 times now. If you guys have more information to demonstrate that this is a notable event that would be helpful.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 01:42, 4 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
There appear to be two satellite events on the 1969 PGA Tour page but are presented as official events. They are the Indian Ridge Hospital Open Invitational, held in my home state of Massachusetts, and the West End Classic, held late in the year in the Bahamas. Unless I am presented with contrary evidence I will either delete them from the 1969 calendar or place them in a separate section.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 03:17, 10 March 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
I was looking to make a page for the Endagine Open, an event in Switzerland during the 1960s. Right now, however, I do not have enough information to create a page.
It states on Neil Coles's wiki page that he won the event in 1963. I also have a reliable third-party source stating that Randall Vines won the 1969 event. But that's it. (And the article itself is about the 1972 Australian PGA - it only mentions the Endagine victory in passing.)
So I don't really think I have enough information to create a page. Do you guys have any more information about there?
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 20:46, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
I remember you commented a couple of months ago about how OWGR, in general, was not "equitable" for non-PGA Tour golfers, especially those outside of the top 25. I apologize for not responding back then - it seemed like a very thoughtful comment and I thought it would take a while to formulate a response... then I kind of just forgot about it. I don't mean to keep on beating a dead horse but I think the OWGR ranking is a very important part of WikiProject Golf. I believe this conversation should continue until we reach a consensus. Beneath is my response.
The most well-known study of OWGR is called the Broadie-Rendleman study. It was produced by Professor Mark Broadie at Columbia University and Professor Richard Rendleman at Dartmouth University in 2012. A copy of the study is here. Golf Digest also ran a story around the same time the study was published it. It is here. Their conclusion is that OWGR is specifically biased PGA Tour pros. Their data manifests a numbers of things:
- the average PGA Tour player is ranked 31 positions lower that he should be
- Nick Watney, despite outplaying Japan Golf Tour pro Yuta Ikeda in 10/12 events, was ranked virtually the same as Ikeda over this time period.
- The flagship events for international tours get way more points than they should relative to strength of field
- at the 2010 Madeira Island Open, perhaps the weakest event on the European Tour, the winner received more points than a man who received solo 5th at the Masters.
- the authors quote a man named Capelle who states: "the secret to becoming one of the top 50 players in the world...: play on a foreign circuit."
I would also like to note that in the article that PGA Tour employees state that the top 20 on the PGA Tour is well represented. So we can agree on that. Contrary to your hypothesis, however, the authors of the article believe the remainder of OWGR slots are not equitably dispensed between PGA Tour golfers and international golfers. So it appears that, upon rigorous analysis, OWGR is specifically biased against PGA Tour players ranked outside of the top 25.
I am also including Nigej in this discussion as he is in charge of WikiProject Golf's OWGR stuff. I hope this is the beginning of a fruitful discussion.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 03:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogy
Does anyone have a list on all of the players that have graduated from PGA Tour Qualifying School? On our wiki page, PGA Tour Qualifying Tournament, we have a very detailed list of players who graduated to the PGA Tour from 1990-2012. However, the school started in 1965.
This is especially important to me as I intend to create a wiki page of all players who have joined tour in the modern era. If someone has access to newspapers.com that may seriously help out.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 03:20, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
1) How do I create the "Dead Link" citation? For a lot of major championship links this is relevant.
2) How do I create the "Categories" section at the bottom on Wiki pages?
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 05:07, 15 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
I have a number of miscellaneous questions that have been building up the past year. If anyone could help me answer them that would be great. They are below:
1) What was the money list/order of merit threshold to earn membership status for the next year? On the PGA Tour, starting in the 1960s or so, I think it began as top 60 on money list and then evolved into the top 125 during the 1980s. However I don't have any hard evidence for this.
As of 1972, it appears that the early European Tour (or British PGA) they had a threshold of top 50. The evidence I have is here. I actually have no hard evidence after this date what their threshold was. I believe now it around top 125 on the Dubai points list - but even that I'm not too sure of.
This is important because when I write articles about journeyman golfers this OoM threshold comes up quite frequently. For a while I assumed it was always top 125 (or close to that) but have realized more recently that this is probably not the case. (Specifically this came up in writing articles for Manuel Ballesteros and Nathaniel Crosby.) If anyone could provide more information that would be great.
2) Is there a way to determine the playing status of a retired golfer during certain seasons of their career? (For contemporary golfers it is clear on the website - under "Exempt Status." I am more concerned about retired golfers.) I usually assume if they have played at least 17 events in a season that they had full-time status. However I never know for sure. If you guys have any information on European Tour golfers too that would be helpful.
3) Finally, does anyone have good information about the the sequence of rounds during events in the mid-late 20th century. I am under the impression that many deviated from the Thursday-Sunday, one round a day norm. That is, some went Friday-one round, Saturday-one round, Sunday-two rounds. I know the British Open went Wednesday-Saturday, one round each day through the 70s or so. This came up when writing articles about players who seriously competed at the 1976 New South Wales PGA Championship. After reading the primary source for this tournament several times I am under the impression that the final two rounds were played on Sunday. (However I still do not know for sure and have avoided referring to the daily sequence of rounds in these articles.) I think they were other Australian/New Zealand tournaments from this era that may have utilized this sequence.
Oogglywoogly ( talk) 04:12, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly