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We have 71 pages that use achsnatl.org https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&ns0=1&search=insource%3Aachsnatl.org , Most of those links to individual honor societies in external links. We have links to both the organization and the chapter list at achsnatl.org in the external links. I believe the chapter links are gone and the organization pages are at urls with minimal consistency. For Example Mu Kappa Tau:
I think we can trim *some* of that new , but that will take experimentation. I don't remember of any of the chapter lists were useful enough to try to pull from archive.org. Naraht ( talk) 03:13, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
If you add a new article or split a list of notables or chapters off of an existing article, be sure to go to the Watchlist and add a bulleted new item for that page. By doing so it will then show up on the Recent Changes list, so other editors are alerted of changes. I hadn't realized this until after I'd added several new articles, but my own edits weren't being alerted to the Project team. Jax MN ( talk) 20:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
For our chapter lists, the installation date and range field can easily get cluttered, especially with platform-adjustable field sizes. This results in readability issues. I've previously supported use of the non-breaking, non-spaced hyphen between "opening" and "closing" dates, like this: March 15, 1921–June 1, 2020, but this style was overruled, likely because of a generic usage rule that preferred spaces before and after the hyphen.
So, what about adding a <br /> after each completed set of active chapter dates, so that any future chapter restoration dates would show up on the next line? And then, where chapters are active, they would be marked with a trailing hyphen, rather than just leaving them bare, or inserting something like " March 15, 1921 - present".
Here is an example:
Chapter | Chartered/Range | Institution | City/County | State/Province | Status | References |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Beta Lambda | October 29, 1930 – July 1, 1970; February 28, 1981 – May 15, 2009; November 16, 2013 – |
University of Arizona | Tucson | Arizona | Active | [a] |
For discussion... Jax MN ( talk) 14:40, 4 July 2023 (UTC) Jax MN
We just had an editor update the headers for a chapter table in List of Delta Sigma Theta alumnae chapters, citing MOS:SLASH and MOS:HEAD. This editor is implying that we should not use "Chartered/Range", "City/County", or "State/Province" in our headers. For example, they subsitituted "State/Territory/County" with "State, territory, or county". Similarly, we should be using "Chartered date and range" and "City or county". I tend to favor following MOS when possible and have previously suggesting updates to our WP style to comply. If we decide to make this change, any idea how many article it might impact? Was the slash a recent addition or has the WP been using it for years? Rublamb ( talk) 17:28, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
I'm going through everything on the WP list and getting rid of the queries (both q= and dq= for all of the references to google books. So basically
gets changed to
anything that is another argument after the query should stay as well. (dq= gets the same treatment.) Let me know if I mess anything up.
among the changes caused by the run, AWB is updating two commonly used templates to what they redirect to. "start date and years ago" to "start date and age" and "url" to "URL". Just letting people know about these in one place. Naraht ( talk) 19:17, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Should collegiate secret societies be a new section in the Fraternities and Sororities template or should there be a new template? @ Naraht, I know you are the template expert. Thoughts? Rublamb ( talk) 17:56, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
On at least two pages that I've been going through with AutoWikiBrowser, it is moving Notes from where it is on the page (normally after the chapter list) to just before the references. This is standard. Is there anyway that we can tweek this so it stays where it was (or even should we?) Naraht ( talk) 21:45, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
I've started splitting Category:Lists of chapters of United States student societies by society , I've started with the NIC, but this sort of makes inaccurate the ones that are both members of the NIC and NPHC, which I'll have to create later. I intend to create subcats for NIC, former NIC (active), former NIC (defunct), NPC, NPHC, PFA, former members of PFA (and predecessors) and the ACHS. I'll see what's left after that, and either leave them there, or ask her for ideas on subgrouping them. Naraht ( talk) 04:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
The Square and Compass group mentioned in Sigma Mu Sigma apparently had as many as 50 chapters at one point. I think it is worthwhile trying to get enough to split out an article. I'm thinking (fraternity) for the dab term. Naraht ( talk) 22:34, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that a lone editor has gradually been going through college and university articles and replacing the Greek organization content with a sentence along these lines: XYZ University has several fraternities and sororities. The editor usually (but not always) posts on the article's talk page about five days making the change with the same generic statement: "This section is unusual for an article about big universities. The contents of the Greek part are unreferenced and since it is just a rote list of various fraternities and sororities without any further detail, I question whether there is any useful information being shared here. I propose deletion." The replication of their talk page message and the singularity of edits to the articles suggests a bias against GLOs and a threat to content that others have created in good faith. At least three of us have engaged in discussions with this editor in the past year, but these changes usually don't come to our attention because the articles in question are beyond the WP scope. It would be a huge project, but I wonder if we should include the Greek sections (ie XYZ University#Greek Life) in our watch page? Rublamb ( talk) 03:19, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
I *abhor* the way in which Baird's lists chapters. There are two ways that it feels inappropriate for what we do. One of them we seem to always change, the other I'd like to see changed as well. Assuming a "normal" chapter description, where the first chapter is alpha, the first 24 go to omega and then on to Alpha Alpha, Alpha Beta and so on.
1) If the first chapters of a GLO all were established in the same year, the listing goes
With the alphabetizing the letters in English order of the greek letters.
2) If the "normal" chapter order is disrupted by the fact that a later letter was chartered just before the new year and the earlier letter was chartered just after, it doesn't show them in order.
So for example if in the addition to the above, Epsilon was chartered in 1920 and Zeta was chartered in 1919 (and all up to Kappa were in 1920), the order in Bairds would go
Both of these should be avoided. I don't believe that WP:OR applies to the initial order of a table. I *really* think that we should try to put them in what the GLO appears to be using as their default order. Naraht ( talk) 20:07, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
After quickly looking at Delta Phi Alpha. The *worst* format for the dates is anything with Month and Day (in either order) in the first two positions. The templates simply can't tell whether 11-8-2020 or 12-5-2020 goes first (Is it November 8th before December 5th or May 12th before August 11th. As a human we can tell which it is based on whether there is a 10-18-1990 or an 18-10-1990 in the list, but please avoid them if possible. OTOH, anything with year first is *always* month second and *day* third and anything with the month spelled out is fine. (I know I'm not saying anything the regulars here don't already know, but just in case) Naraht ( talk) 02:48, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Right now, Gamma Epsilon Tau is on the Template:Professional fraternities , but since Jax MN's edit of December 9, 2021, the template is no longer included. I'd just put it back in the article, but looking at the Gamma Epsilon Tau article, I'm not sure what about the group made it included in the independent professionals. Ideas? Naraht ( talk) 21:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone know a source for info on PR-based fraternities? Rublamb ( talk) 00:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
One source for all, not so much.. The oldest ones were included in very old copies of Bayrds. I have included a lot of references for Phi Sigma Alpha, including a recent a local bill to declare a state Fraternities and Sororities Day that mentions the oldest ones. El Johnson ( talk) 15:20, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help) This is the local bill to declare a state Fraternities and Sororities Day that mentions the oldest ones in spanish.This article just had active chapter names and institutions. Using the Almanac and the fraternity's website, I created a complete list of collegiate and alumni chapters. Can someone with a post-1970 Baird's take a look? It looks like there were at least 3 national mergers--the Almanac mentions two. In the process, chapter names were reassigned and, in many cases, were rechartered to the original school. I caught a couple of times where the Almanac had dates crossed between chapters. And there are too many that appear to be active at the same time with the same name. I added (First), (Second), etc. to help see this more clearly, but there is some randomness with names and date order at the same time as the mergers. I may have it as close as possible, but hoping there is another source to answer some of these questions. Oh, and feel free to add some locations as that was where I stopped. Rublamb ( talk) 10:14, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone understand why List of Omega Delta Phi chapters doesn't show sort buttons? It uses template:fratchapterstart which should have it. Naraht ( talk) 04:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
{| class="wikitable sortable" ! Chapter ! Charter date and range ! Institution ! City or county ! State district or province ! Status ! References |- |''Alpha'' |{{dts|1869|01|01}} – 1888 |[[Virginia Military Institute]] |[[Lexington, Virginia|Lexington]] |[[Virginia]] |Inactive |{{Efn|Chapter went dormant twice because of anti-fraternity policies.}} |}
Something that I've run into on Omega Delta Phi. Omega chapter is a memorial chapter. (When brothers die they are said to join Omega chapter). Where should Omega end up when sorting on date?
I'm leaning toward the second (9999), comments? Naraht ( talk) 13:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
An editor has recently blanked extensive information formerly on the Alpha Sigma Tau article. Consisting of the Symbols section, also publications and all aspects of mission statement, creed, or themes, the page was severely curtailed as of August 30, 2023. The rationale was stated that these items cited self-published references.
In response, I added a Baird's 20th reference, in which I see that Baird's had discussed all the deleted symbolism, publications and creed, and other such topics, in its listing for Alpha Sigma Tau. Because there were numerous edits to blank these sections, a manual revert will be needed - in case someone wants to dig into this.
Nevertheless, I know that some of our Project editors take a more stringent view of mission statements or anything that comes close to it. I note that the AST article was a bit long in this area, but I fully disagree with so extensive of a culling. Perhaps a 25% reduction would have been more reasonable. I've had a previous exchange with Primefac on this; our compromise result was to allow thin mention of a basic creed or mission statement, but to leave the more extensive treatment to be kept on a national organization's own website, not here. Further, it seems all of us accept the value of including a Symbolism section, and Publications, often under a "Traditions" header. Are we in alignment? Jax MN ( talk) 15:32, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
After looking at the snippets of The History of Phi Mu: The First 130 Years , I became aware that the reason that Zeta chapter at Chevy Chase went inactive was as a sacrifice because the NPC required a certain level of degree offering(?) (not sure accreditation is the correct term in 1911) for all chapters for the sororities that belonged. It also happened to Upsilon chapter at St. Mary's Seminary as well.
I believe the Alpha chapter of Sigma Mu Sigma was sacrificed *twice* for organizations either joining the NIC or becoming Senior (back when there were Junior/Senior members of the NIC).
Does this make sense to include as a note for the chapter in a listing? Naraht ( talk) 14:19, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
I am finishing up the Sigma Chi project which involved List of Sigma Chi chapters and List of Sigma Chi alumni chapters. The former was such a mess that I started from scratch. There are a couple of issues that I need advice/help with.
Rublamb ( talk) 21:08, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
I have published an article for Chicora College, also known as Chicora College for Women. In 1925, these were its GLO: Alpha Omega, Alpha Zeta, Beta Chi, Delta Mu, Delta Rho, Delta Sigma, Gamma Delta, Pi Alpha Gamma Sigma, Pi Beta Delta, Pi Sigma Delta, Pi Sigma Mu, Sigma Alpha, Sigma Phi, Tau Beta Tau, and Zeta Phi Delta. Does anyone feel like sorting through which of these are local and which are national (and needed a link)? Rublamb ( talk) 00:27, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a working list of articles with substandard or missing chapter lists, which merit the attention of Project editors. For examples of lists, see List of Zeta Psi chapters, List of Beta Theta Pi chapters or the Alpha Delta Phi Society. If you are working on an article, please indicate below. Strike out when the article is fixed. Jax MN ( talk) 21:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC) Rublamb (talk) 19:50, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
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I'm putting the information in "The Adelphean of Alpha Delta Pi, Volume 7" pages 19-23 ( https://books.google.com/books?id=Ut8TAAAAIAA) in to List of Alpha Delta Pi chapters. In this list of chapters and the information about them up to Phi chapter is:
I don't know if it makes me feel better in that mistakes were made or worse that we are pulling from information that is weird in the first place.... Naraht ( talk) 21:51, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Created List of Iota Phi Theta brothers from Iota Phi Theta, and cats for Delta Delta Delta, Alpha Chi Omega, Delta Phi Epsilon (social), Iota Phi Theta and Sigma Gamma Rho. All have at least one of "members" or "chapters". Naraht ( talk) 13:35, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
In Category:Lists of chapters of North American Interfraternity Conference members by society, all but one are named "List of Mu Mu Mu chapters(and other things)" But, Chi Psi is the exception ( List of chapters of Chi Psi. Rublamb, I see that you were the one that pulled it out of Chi Psi. Any objections to moving this to List of Chi Psi chapters? Naraht ( talk) 02:40, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Anon provided an edit out of the blue, forcing a different format for Greek Letters. It's a nested template within the standard LANG template. See Phi Beta Kappa. I could be convinced. The serif font is more readable. Your thoughts? Jax MN ( talk) 06:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Gamma Epsilon Pi was a women's honor society in the field of commerce, founded in 1918, it merged with Beta Gamma Sigma (sort of male equivalent) in 1933. I have the Baird's entry for it that includes all of the chapters. The question is whether that belongs near the mention of the merger on the Beta Gamma Sigma page or in a separate section on List of Beta Gamma Sigma chapters page, or somehow combined, with the addition of efns. I think *somewhere* there should be a list of chapters starting with Alpha rather than just being auxiliary. (or since we actually have a full page in the 1927 Baird's just separate the entire thing into its own Gamma Epsilon Pi article?) Naraht ( talk) 19:46, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
There is a current discussion on Talk:University of Louisiana at Lafayette about whether or not to include Greek life content. Rublamb ( talk) 00:13, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I've reorganized categories for Member and chapter lists, time for houses... :) Ideas...
Naraht ( talk) 06:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Or at least reached a reasonable stopping place. Sorority Houses are a subcat, *really* not sure how I feel about that, see above. Every group with two or more has had the groups moved into a subcat, either of the main cat or the sorority category. Most for any group is SAE with five. Leaving Shadowwood alone, but don't feel strongly in whether it should stay. Naraht ( talk) 03:14, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Next thing to look at categories for? :) Naraht ( talk) 03:14, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
I have been working on my expanded list of GLO-related colleges without an article. Today, a couple just needed a redirect to and update to an existing article. Nice! Then, I created two articles only to discover that we did not have chapter lists for two of the related GLOs. One has more than 1200 active chapters. But it gets worse. Writing the article about the Atlanta Conservatory of Music led to a horrible tragedy. The music school was on the 4th and 5th floors above a piano sales and manufacturer. The latter was a huge fire hazard that was known to the city's fire department. For some reason, a shooting gallery was added to the building's first floor. No one knows how the fire started as the factory workers were at lunch at the time. But three students died in the fire, including two who had just become engaged. (They died by a 5th floor window as 20,000+ people watched). One heroic teacher made her students jump from the 5th story to the roof of an adjacent three-story building. Many broken bones, but she saved their lives. The school seems to have operated for one more year and then disappeared as two families named it in two law suits equal to more than one million dollars today. I hate coming across certain types of misconduct in GLOs, but this was an outright buzzkill. Rublamb ( talk) 05:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Another thing that I'd like to change. I'd like to make it policy(?) that an organization is never referred to *just* as its greek letters without them being written out in the english of the letters. So for example, if in the chapter list of Mu Mu Mu, that Omega chapter was formed from the local Alpha Beta Gamma that the Alpha Beta Gamma always be spelled out in English as opposed to using ΑΒΓ without spelling it out. For List of Lambda Chi Alpha chapters, I added ΘΚΝ to the first mention of Theta Kappa Nu in the article to show the link. Naraht ( talk) 21:49, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
The Gamma Eta Alpha is englishized, the Phi Iota Alpha isn't (and there are some examples where the what it became isn't mentioned anywhere else.) Naraht ( talk) 01:12, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
The example we have above of what a chapter entry in a chapter list should look like has the chartered date(s) *Left* Justified. OTOH, all of the groups that use FratChapterStart have (like Alpha Mu Sigma) their dates *Center* Justified. I personally think that Left Justified looks better, Opinions? Naraht ( talk) 03:34, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
This sub-category only is only used with one person and only has the potential for four total--the number of founders of this group. There is a category for Delta Gamma and for sorority founders. Does it make sense to remove this one? Rublamb ( talk) 23:24, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
Rublamb It's a broader issue. Firstly, according to the Delta Gamma article there are three founders and articles exist for all three, *but* two of three( Eva Webb Dodd, and Anna Boyd Ellington) have been changed within the last couple of years from full articles to redirects to Delta Gamma#History presumably based on BLP1E. We can undo the redirect and that will completely solve things). However...
It does lead *back* to the question we've had for *years*. "Does being a founder of a GLO make one notable?". And while we *can* have the Redirects include Category:Delta Gamma Founders , I'm not sure that really fixes things. (I picked a founding sister for Alpha Kappa Alpha that I didn't know that had an article at random, Joanna Mary Berry Shields and I'm really not sure that other than being one of the founders of AKA she qualifies for an article. ) Naraht ( talk) 15:54, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
I *think* List of Delta Omicron National Honorary Members should be added to Category:Lists of members of Professional Fraternity Association members by society, but I'm unclear whether List of Delta Omicron patrons should be kept in the group or removed. I'm having problems figuring out whether Patrons and Patronesses (which *are* a different thing than the Honorary Members) are members or not. Naraht ( talk) 03:53, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Ordinarily I had updates like "I'm a member of the board and therefore I know that..." but in this case, they were right *and* we actually have the chapter name correct in the article on Dartmouth. Now if he'd just give info on half of the rest of the chapters chartered prior to 1900. I'd forgotten how much of a *mess* the DTD chapter listing is (not the article, the existence of those chapters). Naraht ( talk) 06:23, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
This is a working list of articles with substandard or missing chapter lists, which merit the attention of Project editors. For examples of lists, see List of Zeta Psi chapters, List of Beta Theta Pi chapters or the Alpha Delta Phi Society. If you are working on an article, please indicate below. Strike out when the article is fixed. Jax MN ( talk) 21:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Note that this list had been much longer; editors have reposted it after removing the completed projects. Jax MN ( talk) 19:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 |
We have 71 pages that use achsnatl.org https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&ns0=1&search=insource%3Aachsnatl.org , Most of those links to individual honor societies in external links. We have links to both the organization and the chapter list at achsnatl.org in the external links. I believe the chapter links are gone and the organization pages are at urls with minimal consistency. For Example Mu Kappa Tau:
I think we can trim *some* of that new , but that will take experimentation. I don't remember of any of the chapter lists were useful enough to try to pull from archive.org. Naraht ( talk) 03:13, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
If you add a new article or split a list of notables or chapters off of an existing article, be sure to go to the Watchlist and add a bulleted new item for that page. By doing so it will then show up on the Recent Changes list, so other editors are alerted of changes. I hadn't realized this until after I'd added several new articles, but my own edits weren't being alerted to the Project team. Jax MN ( talk) 20:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
For our chapter lists, the installation date and range field can easily get cluttered, especially with platform-adjustable field sizes. This results in readability issues. I've previously supported use of the non-breaking, non-spaced hyphen between "opening" and "closing" dates, like this: March 15, 1921–June 1, 2020, but this style was overruled, likely because of a generic usage rule that preferred spaces before and after the hyphen.
So, what about adding a <br /> after each completed set of active chapter dates, so that any future chapter restoration dates would show up on the next line? And then, where chapters are active, they would be marked with a trailing hyphen, rather than just leaving them bare, or inserting something like " March 15, 1921 - present".
Here is an example:
Chapter | Chartered/Range | Institution | City/County | State/Province | Status | References |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Beta Lambda | October 29, 1930 – July 1, 1970; February 28, 1981 – May 15, 2009; November 16, 2013 – |
University of Arizona | Tucson | Arizona | Active | [a] |
For discussion... Jax MN ( talk) 14:40, 4 July 2023 (UTC) Jax MN
We just had an editor update the headers for a chapter table in List of Delta Sigma Theta alumnae chapters, citing MOS:SLASH and MOS:HEAD. This editor is implying that we should not use "Chartered/Range", "City/County", or "State/Province" in our headers. For example, they subsitituted "State/Territory/County" with "State, territory, or county". Similarly, we should be using "Chartered date and range" and "City or county". I tend to favor following MOS when possible and have previously suggesting updates to our WP style to comply. If we decide to make this change, any idea how many article it might impact? Was the slash a recent addition or has the WP been using it for years? Rublamb ( talk) 17:28, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
I'm going through everything on the WP list and getting rid of the queries (both q= and dq= for all of the references to google books. So basically
gets changed to
anything that is another argument after the query should stay as well. (dq= gets the same treatment.) Let me know if I mess anything up.
among the changes caused by the run, AWB is updating two commonly used templates to what they redirect to. "start date and years ago" to "start date and age" and "url" to "URL". Just letting people know about these in one place. Naraht ( talk) 19:17, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Should collegiate secret societies be a new section in the Fraternities and Sororities template or should there be a new template? @ Naraht, I know you are the template expert. Thoughts? Rublamb ( talk) 17:56, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
On at least two pages that I've been going through with AutoWikiBrowser, it is moving Notes from where it is on the page (normally after the chapter list) to just before the references. This is standard. Is there anyway that we can tweek this so it stays where it was (or even should we?) Naraht ( talk) 21:45, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
I've started splitting Category:Lists of chapters of United States student societies by society , I've started with the NIC, but this sort of makes inaccurate the ones that are both members of the NIC and NPHC, which I'll have to create later. I intend to create subcats for NIC, former NIC (active), former NIC (defunct), NPC, NPHC, PFA, former members of PFA (and predecessors) and the ACHS. I'll see what's left after that, and either leave them there, or ask her for ideas on subgrouping them. Naraht ( talk) 04:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
The Square and Compass group mentioned in Sigma Mu Sigma apparently had as many as 50 chapters at one point. I think it is worthwhile trying to get enough to split out an article. I'm thinking (fraternity) for the dab term. Naraht ( talk) 22:34, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that a lone editor has gradually been going through college and university articles and replacing the Greek organization content with a sentence along these lines: XYZ University has several fraternities and sororities. The editor usually (but not always) posts on the article's talk page about five days making the change with the same generic statement: "This section is unusual for an article about big universities. The contents of the Greek part are unreferenced and since it is just a rote list of various fraternities and sororities without any further detail, I question whether there is any useful information being shared here. I propose deletion." The replication of their talk page message and the singularity of edits to the articles suggests a bias against GLOs and a threat to content that others have created in good faith. At least three of us have engaged in discussions with this editor in the past year, but these changes usually don't come to our attention because the articles in question are beyond the WP scope. It would be a huge project, but I wonder if we should include the Greek sections (ie XYZ University#Greek Life) in our watch page? Rublamb ( talk) 03:19, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
I *abhor* the way in which Baird's lists chapters. There are two ways that it feels inappropriate for what we do. One of them we seem to always change, the other I'd like to see changed as well. Assuming a "normal" chapter description, where the first chapter is alpha, the first 24 go to omega and then on to Alpha Alpha, Alpha Beta and so on.
1) If the first chapters of a GLO all were established in the same year, the listing goes
With the alphabetizing the letters in English order of the greek letters.
2) If the "normal" chapter order is disrupted by the fact that a later letter was chartered just before the new year and the earlier letter was chartered just after, it doesn't show them in order.
So for example if in the addition to the above, Epsilon was chartered in 1920 and Zeta was chartered in 1919 (and all up to Kappa were in 1920), the order in Bairds would go
Both of these should be avoided. I don't believe that WP:OR applies to the initial order of a table. I *really* think that we should try to put them in what the GLO appears to be using as their default order. Naraht ( talk) 20:07, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
After quickly looking at Delta Phi Alpha. The *worst* format for the dates is anything with Month and Day (in either order) in the first two positions. The templates simply can't tell whether 11-8-2020 or 12-5-2020 goes first (Is it November 8th before December 5th or May 12th before August 11th. As a human we can tell which it is based on whether there is a 10-18-1990 or an 18-10-1990 in the list, but please avoid them if possible. OTOH, anything with year first is *always* month second and *day* third and anything with the month spelled out is fine. (I know I'm not saying anything the regulars here don't already know, but just in case) Naraht ( talk) 02:48, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Right now, Gamma Epsilon Tau is on the Template:Professional fraternities , but since Jax MN's edit of December 9, 2021, the template is no longer included. I'd just put it back in the article, but looking at the Gamma Epsilon Tau article, I'm not sure what about the group made it included in the independent professionals. Ideas? Naraht ( talk) 21:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone know a source for info on PR-based fraternities? Rublamb ( talk) 00:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
One source for all, not so much.. The oldest ones were included in very old copies of Bayrds. I have included a lot of references for Phi Sigma Alpha, including a recent a local bill to declare a state Fraternities and Sororities Day that mentions the oldest ones. El Johnson ( talk) 15:20, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help) This is the local bill to declare a state Fraternities and Sororities Day that mentions the oldest ones in spanish.This article just had active chapter names and institutions. Using the Almanac and the fraternity's website, I created a complete list of collegiate and alumni chapters. Can someone with a post-1970 Baird's take a look? It looks like there were at least 3 national mergers--the Almanac mentions two. In the process, chapter names were reassigned and, in many cases, were rechartered to the original school. I caught a couple of times where the Almanac had dates crossed between chapters. And there are too many that appear to be active at the same time with the same name. I added (First), (Second), etc. to help see this more clearly, but there is some randomness with names and date order at the same time as the mergers. I may have it as close as possible, but hoping there is another source to answer some of these questions. Oh, and feel free to add some locations as that was where I stopped. Rublamb ( talk) 10:14, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone understand why List of Omega Delta Phi chapters doesn't show sort buttons? It uses template:fratchapterstart which should have it. Naraht ( talk) 04:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
{| class="wikitable sortable" ! Chapter ! Charter date and range ! Institution ! City or county ! State district or province ! Status ! References |- |''Alpha'' |{{dts|1869|01|01}} – 1888 |[[Virginia Military Institute]] |[[Lexington, Virginia|Lexington]] |[[Virginia]] |Inactive |{{Efn|Chapter went dormant twice because of anti-fraternity policies.}} |}
Something that I've run into on Omega Delta Phi. Omega chapter is a memorial chapter. (When brothers die they are said to join Omega chapter). Where should Omega end up when sorting on date?
I'm leaning toward the second (9999), comments? Naraht ( talk) 13:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
An editor has recently blanked extensive information formerly on the Alpha Sigma Tau article. Consisting of the Symbols section, also publications and all aspects of mission statement, creed, or themes, the page was severely curtailed as of August 30, 2023. The rationale was stated that these items cited self-published references.
In response, I added a Baird's 20th reference, in which I see that Baird's had discussed all the deleted symbolism, publications and creed, and other such topics, in its listing for Alpha Sigma Tau. Because there were numerous edits to blank these sections, a manual revert will be needed - in case someone wants to dig into this.
Nevertheless, I know that some of our Project editors take a more stringent view of mission statements or anything that comes close to it. I note that the AST article was a bit long in this area, but I fully disagree with so extensive of a culling. Perhaps a 25% reduction would have been more reasonable. I've had a previous exchange with Primefac on this; our compromise result was to allow thin mention of a basic creed or mission statement, but to leave the more extensive treatment to be kept on a national organization's own website, not here. Further, it seems all of us accept the value of including a Symbolism section, and Publications, often under a "Traditions" header. Are we in alignment? Jax MN ( talk) 15:32, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
After looking at the snippets of The History of Phi Mu: The First 130 Years , I became aware that the reason that Zeta chapter at Chevy Chase went inactive was as a sacrifice because the NPC required a certain level of degree offering(?) (not sure accreditation is the correct term in 1911) for all chapters for the sororities that belonged. It also happened to Upsilon chapter at St. Mary's Seminary as well.
I believe the Alpha chapter of Sigma Mu Sigma was sacrificed *twice* for organizations either joining the NIC or becoming Senior (back when there were Junior/Senior members of the NIC).
Does this make sense to include as a note for the chapter in a listing? Naraht ( talk) 14:19, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
I am finishing up the Sigma Chi project which involved List of Sigma Chi chapters and List of Sigma Chi alumni chapters. The former was such a mess that I started from scratch. There are a couple of issues that I need advice/help with.
Rublamb ( talk) 21:08, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
I have published an article for Chicora College, also known as Chicora College for Women. In 1925, these were its GLO: Alpha Omega, Alpha Zeta, Beta Chi, Delta Mu, Delta Rho, Delta Sigma, Gamma Delta, Pi Alpha Gamma Sigma, Pi Beta Delta, Pi Sigma Delta, Pi Sigma Mu, Sigma Alpha, Sigma Phi, Tau Beta Tau, and Zeta Phi Delta. Does anyone feel like sorting through which of these are local and which are national (and needed a link)? Rublamb ( talk) 00:27, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a working list of articles with substandard or missing chapter lists, which merit the attention of Project editors. For examples of lists, see List of Zeta Psi chapters, List of Beta Theta Pi chapters or the Alpha Delta Phi Society. If you are working on an article, please indicate below. Strike out when the article is fixed. Jax MN ( talk) 21:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC) Rublamb (talk) 19:50, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
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I'm putting the information in "The Adelphean of Alpha Delta Pi, Volume 7" pages 19-23 ( https://books.google.com/books?id=Ut8TAAAAIAA) in to List of Alpha Delta Pi chapters. In this list of chapters and the information about them up to Phi chapter is:
I don't know if it makes me feel better in that mistakes were made or worse that we are pulling from information that is weird in the first place.... Naraht ( talk) 21:51, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Created List of Iota Phi Theta brothers from Iota Phi Theta, and cats for Delta Delta Delta, Alpha Chi Omega, Delta Phi Epsilon (social), Iota Phi Theta and Sigma Gamma Rho. All have at least one of "members" or "chapters". Naraht ( talk) 13:35, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
In Category:Lists of chapters of North American Interfraternity Conference members by society, all but one are named "List of Mu Mu Mu chapters(and other things)" But, Chi Psi is the exception ( List of chapters of Chi Psi. Rublamb, I see that you were the one that pulled it out of Chi Psi. Any objections to moving this to List of Chi Psi chapters? Naraht ( talk) 02:40, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Anon provided an edit out of the blue, forcing a different format for Greek Letters. It's a nested template within the standard LANG template. See Phi Beta Kappa. I could be convinced. The serif font is more readable. Your thoughts? Jax MN ( talk) 06:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Gamma Epsilon Pi was a women's honor society in the field of commerce, founded in 1918, it merged with Beta Gamma Sigma (sort of male equivalent) in 1933. I have the Baird's entry for it that includes all of the chapters. The question is whether that belongs near the mention of the merger on the Beta Gamma Sigma page or in a separate section on List of Beta Gamma Sigma chapters page, or somehow combined, with the addition of efns. I think *somewhere* there should be a list of chapters starting with Alpha rather than just being auxiliary. (or since we actually have a full page in the 1927 Baird's just separate the entire thing into its own Gamma Epsilon Pi article?) Naraht ( talk) 19:46, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
There is a current discussion on Talk:University of Louisiana at Lafayette about whether or not to include Greek life content. Rublamb ( talk) 00:13, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I've reorganized categories for Member and chapter lists, time for houses... :) Ideas...
Naraht ( talk) 06:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Or at least reached a reasonable stopping place. Sorority Houses are a subcat, *really* not sure how I feel about that, see above. Every group with two or more has had the groups moved into a subcat, either of the main cat or the sorority category. Most for any group is SAE with five. Leaving Shadowwood alone, but don't feel strongly in whether it should stay. Naraht ( talk) 03:14, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Next thing to look at categories for? :) Naraht ( talk) 03:14, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
I have been working on my expanded list of GLO-related colleges without an article. Today, a couple just needed a redirect to and update to an existing article. Nice! Then, I created two articles only to discover that we did not have chapter lists for two of the related GLOs. One has more than 1200 active chapters. But it gets worse. Writing the article about the Atlanta Conservatory of Music led to a horrible tragedy. The music school was on the 4th and 5th floors above a piano sales and manufacturer. The latter was a huge fire hazard that was known to the city's fire department. For some reason, a shooting gallery was added to the building's first floor. No one knows how the fire started as the factory workers were at lunch at the time. But three students died in the fire, including two who had just become engaged. (They died by a 5th floor window as 20,000+ people watched). One heroic teacher made her students jump from the 5th story to the roof of an adjacent three-story building. Many broken bones, but she saved their lives. The school seems to have operated for one more year and then disappeared as two families named it in two law suits equal to more than one million dollars today. I hate coming across certain types of misconduct in GLOs, but this was an outright buzzkill. Rublamb ( talk) 05:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Another thing that I'd like to change. I'd like to make it policy(?) that an organization is never referred to *just* as its greek letters without them being written out in the english of the letters. So for example, if in the chapter list of Mu Mu Mu, that Omega chapter was formed from the local Alpha Beta Gamma that the Alpha Beta Gamma always be spelled out in English as opposed to using ΑΒΓ without spelling it out. For List of Lambda Chi Alpha chapters, I added ΘΚΝ to the first mention of Theta Kappa Nu in the article to show the link. Naraht ( talk) 21:49, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
The Gamma Eta Alpha is englishized, the Phi Iota Alpha isn't (and there are some examples where the what it became isn't mentioned anywhere else.) Naraht ( talk) 01:12, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
The example we have above of what a chapter entry in a chapter list should look like has the chartered date(s) *Left* Justified. OTOH, all of the groups that use FratChapterStart have (like Alpha Mu Sigma) their dates *Center* Justified. I personally think that Left Justified looks better, Opinions? Naraht ( talk) 03:34, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
This sub-category only is only used with one person and only has the potential for four total--the number of founders of this group. There is a category for Delta Gamma and for sorority founders. Does it make sense to remove this one? Rublamb ( talk) 23:24, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
Rublamb It's a broader issue. Firstly, according to the Delta Gamma article there are three founders and articles exist for all three, *but* two of three( Eva Webb Dodd, and Anna Boyd Ellington) have been changed within the last couple of years from full articles to redirects to Delta Gamma#History presumably based on BLP1E. We can undo the redirect and that will completely solve things). However...
It does lead *back* to the question we've had for *years*. "Does being a founder of a GLO make one notable?". And while we *can* have the Redirects include Category:Delta Gamma Founders , I'm not sure that really fixes things. (I picked a founding sister for Alpha Kappa Alpha that I didn't know that had an article at random, Joanna Mary Berry Shields and I'm really not sure that other than being one of the founders of AKA she qualifies for an article. ) Naraht ( talk) 15:54, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
I *think* List of Delta Omicron National Honorary Members should be added to Category:Lists of members of Professional Fraternity Association members by society, but I'm unclear whether List of Delta Omicron patrons should be kept in the group or removed. I'm having problems figuring out whether Patrons and Patronesses (which *are* a different thing than the Honorary Members) are members or not. Naraht ( talk) 03:53, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Ordinarily I had updates like "I'm a member of the board and therefore I know that..." but in this case, they were right *and* we actually have the chapter name correct in the article on Dartmouth. Now if he'd just give info on half of the rest of the chapters chartered prior to 1900. I'd forgotten how much of a *mess* the DTD chapter listing is (not the article, the existence of those chapters). Naraht ( talk) 06:23, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
This is a working list of articles with substandard or missing chapter lists, which merit the attention of Project editors. For examples of lists, see List of Zeta Psi chapters, List of Beta Theta Pi chapters or the Alpha Delta Phi Society. If you are working on an article, please indicate below. Strike out when the article is fixed. Jax MN ( talk) 21:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Note that this list had been much longer; editors have reposted it after removing the completed projects. Jax MN ( talk) 19:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
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