This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | → | Archive 30 |
@ Lucas Gaúcho once asked here if Campeonato Gaúcho was a FPL, and as it seems, no consensus was reached. I also asked about Campeonato Carioca and Campeonato Gaúcho some time later, but nobody replied (only a single user agreed that Mineiro was indeed a FPL).
I'll post again those tournaments' regulations, so everybody can analyze it again:
Carioca - In Campeonato Carioca, the first paragraph of the regulation, it says: O Campeonato Estadual de Futebol da Série A de profissionais será realizado com a participação de 16 associações a saber [...];
Gaúcho - In the regulation, it says: É vedada a participação de atletas não profissionais com idade superior a 20 (vinte) anos., which means that only professional and youth players (yes, in Brazil a player can have a youth contract until his 20th birthday) can play.
I think they should be added on the list. MYS 77 ✉ 13:53, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello. I want ask question about WP:NFOOTBALL. At second criteria for football player is : "Players who have played, and managers who have managed in a fully professional league, will generally be regarded as notable. See a list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football." But at WT:FPL there is a sentence about deletion of articles : "It might not provide valid criteria for an AfD nomination, or a noticeboard action or other dispute." So how we can decide players who played other leagues which listed at WT:FPL is notable or not? -- Aabdullayev851 ( talk) 18:15, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
I think it's time to add the Philippines Football League to the list of fully professional leagues. I think we can say with a high degree of certainty that this league will go ahead as it now has 7 clubs which have signed up to play due to kick of in April. There is also confirmation that it will be a professional league from the PFF [3]. A simple google search yields many result about professionalism. Simione001 ( talk) 22:07, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
What is the status of players who did not appear in the Football League, but did so in the Southern League prior to 1920? There are a number of wiki pages for players who played only in the Southern League prior to 1920, with editors "controlling" those pages and refuting any requests for deletion, insisting that the player is notable because prior to the addition of the Third Division to the Football League 1920, the Southern League was seen as the Football League's equal and the player was a full professional. Is there any kind of official clarification available? Beatpoet ( talk) 22:43, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Mauritius was added to the list of FPLs earlier today, using this as a source. As a result (the source says nothing about the league's status), I removed it. I have now done some research and would welcome other views. This article suggests it is indeed an FPL, the key sentence being "200 players practice this sports discipline full-time and at the same time benefit from a monthly salary". However, before I added it, I thought it would be worth checking with others. The one thing that concerns me is that budget for the league is 40,000,000 rupees, or 200,000 per player. This is well below the median (261,000) and average (352,000) incomes reported in 2015 by Stats Mauritius. However, I guess this is perhaps only the central grant and clubs can raise additional funds. Thoughts anyone? Number 5 7 20:16, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Hi, having recently contacted IFK Norrköping, to ask about a player, they told me that the Superettan Swedish second tier division is a fully professional league, is that correct? thanks Atlantic306 ( talk) 19:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
No, just this email :
Hello,
We played in the swedish second division while Dago Funes played here. The second division called Superettan is a fully professional league.
Best regards, Fredrik Nilsson IFK Norrköping
Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: Jimmy Knott [4] Skickat: den 25 mars 2017 20:57 Till: IFK Norrköping Info Ämne: Dago Funes
Hi, can you please tell me whether Dago Funes played in the Swedish premier league while he was at your club. The reason I am asking is that the English Wikipedia article on him can only be kept if he has played in a fully professional league or his national team, thanks Jimmy Knott
Will ask them about rs tomorrow, thanks Atlantic306 ( talk) 19:48, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
So the Indian Women's League began a couple days ago. According to the All India Football Federation themselves, the league is professional. Other, independent sources such as the Indian Express and Tribune India have called the league professional, with the league being launched with a "bang" and Indian international footballers will be participating in the tournament. The Tribune article provides a bit more information, mainly that the league will/is being broadcasted on the AIFF website and that sponsors were hard to find, if any, but the league is still being organized in a professional matter along the same lines as the fully-professional Indian Super League. Players are also being paid to play in the league which I think helps. -- ArsenalFan700 ( talk) 04:41, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
I propose that the Championnat National (the third tier of French football) is considered as a fully professional league. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether our definition of fully-professional relates to the clubs participating in a league or the players playing in a league. In the Championnat National (and the three tiers below) it is the case that players are paid a minimum wage through a federal contract (contrat fédéral) with the Union Nationale des Footballeurs Professionnels ( UNFP). Note that these are standard contracts written by the FFF and validated by the UNFP. ( Source - see section 3 Qu'est-ce qu'un contrat fédéral?)
In the National, it is obligatory that players sign a full-time (i.e. 35 hours per week) contract (again, see section 3 in previous link). Players in lower divisions on the federal contracts have the option to work part-time (60%) so I am not proposing that these are fully professional league (however, neither are they amateur as the English translation of their name suggests but that's another matter). Players are then put into one of three categories largely depending on their previous career, and given a certain number of points. Each point counts towards the player's wage, at a value of €14.40 (roughly £12.20, US$15.30) per point for the 2016–17 season ( Source). The three categories are as follows:
Therefore, a player in the Championnat National is earning anywhere between €1,872 (£1,588, US$1,991) and €3,600 (£3,054, US$3,830) per month. To my mind, this is clearly enough money to qualify as fully professional. But as I said at the start, it is the players who are professional rather than the clubs. Is this acceptable under our current guidelines? BigDom ( talk) 10:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Greek Football League 2 no longer officially exists. When used, it reffers to Gamma Ethniki as stated by the article itself. Also, the article in its lead says that it is an amateur league( Gamma Ethniki (Greek: Γ΄ Εθνική Ερασιτεχνική Κατηγορία, C National Amateur Division), is the third highest football league in Greece. ) Additionally, The Greek football federation includes it in their regulations for amateur matches [1]. For these reasons, I propose to remove this league from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues-- Kostas20142 ( talk) 13:05, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
How are we treating 2016 Indonesia Soccer Championship A, which was in 2016 the top league in Indonesia, with the same teams that used to play in the listed at WP:FPL Indonesia Super League. For that matter, how are we treating the 2017 replacement 2017 Liga 1 which again is planned to use the same teams from 2015 Indonesia Super League. I'm seeing prods for players who played in 2016? I've seen no indication that any of these teams have become non-fully-professional. Nfitz ( talk) 23:38, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure why this is listed as a FPL. If it ever was, it hasn't been for a number of years. Dumbarton have played at that level for some years as a part-time club, [5] although they are in some danger of relegation this year. Jmorrison230582 ( talk) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Delist - Last night I watched two more part-time clubs, Alloa Athletic and Brechin City, playing-off to join Dumbarton in next year's Championship. Brechin won on penalties to delight their 41-year-old player/manager, and the "pitch invasion" was slightly strange in that the players clearly knew all the fans who came on! One side of Brechin's ground is famously a hedge – in the first leg of this play-off final (presumably their biggest home game of the season) they attracted a crowd of 700, despite slashing prices and letting u16s in free. Apparently the guy who hit the winning penalty is returning to England as he's finishing his course at Stirling University. Post match, some of the players got in wheelie bins full of cold water at the side of the pitch. Don't get me wrong it was an enjoyable watch and I'm sure me and the few hundred other people who tuned to BBC Alba went away entertained. But "fully professional"? Not on your nelly. Or "nae chance" to borrow the vernacular. Hibernian and (possibly) Dundee United going up to the Premiership will leave the Championship with vastly-reduced coverage and average attendances if that is going to be our metric. I'd also point out that the references which are supposed to support this League's inclusion on the list appear to date from before the League's creation. Bring back Daz Sampson ( talk) 09:40, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | → | Archive 30 |
@ Lucas Gaúcho once asked here if Campeonato Gaúcho was a FPL, and as it seems, no consensus was reached. I also asked about Campeonato Carioca and Campeonato Gaúcho some time later, but nobody replied (only a single user agreed that Mineiro was indeed a FPL).
I'll post again those tournaments' regulations, so everybody can analyze it again:
Carioca - In Campeonato Carioca, the first paragraph of the regulation, it says: O Campeonato Estadual de Futebol da Série A de profissionais será realizado com a participação de 16 associações a saber [...];
Gaúcho - In the regulation, it says: É vedada a participação de atletas não profissionais com idade superior a 20 (vinte) anos., which means that only professional and youth players (yes, in Brazil a player can have a youth contract until his 20th birthday) can play.
I think they should be added on the list. MYS 77 ✉ 13:53, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello. I want ask question about WP:NFOOTBALL. At second criteria for football player is : "Players who have played, and managers who have managed in a fully professional league, will generally be regarded as notable. See a list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football." But at WT:FPL there is a sentence about deletion of articles : "It might not provide valid criteria for an AfD nomination, or a noticeboard action or other dispute." So how we can decide players who played other leagues which listed at WT:FPL is notable or not? -- Aabdullayev851 ( talk) 18:15, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
I think it's time to add the Philippines Football League to the list of fully professional leagues. I think we can say with a high degree of certainty that this league will go ahead as it now has 7 clubs which have signed up to play due to kick of in April. There is also confirmation that it will be a professional league from the PFF [3]. A simple google search yields many result about professionalism. Simione001 ( talk) 22:07, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
What is the status of players who did not appear in the Football League, but did so in the Southern League prior to 1920? There are a number of wiki pages for players who played only in the Southern League prior to 1920, with editors "controlling" those pages and refuting any requests for deletion, insisting that the player is notable because prior to the addition of the Third Division to the Football League 1920, the Southern League was seen as the Football League's equal and the player was a full professional. Is there any kind of official clarification available? Beatpoet ( talk) 22:43, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Mauritius was added to the list of FPLs earlier today, using this as a source. As a result (the source says nothing about the league's status), I removed it. I have now done some research and would welcome other views. This article suggests it is indeed an FPL, the key sentence being "200 players practice this sports discipline full-time and at the same time benefit from a monthly salary". However, before I added it, I thought it would be worth checking with others. The one thing that concerns me is that budget for the league is 40,000,000 rupees, or 200,000 per player. This is well below the median (261,000) and average (352,000) incomes reported in 2015 by Stats Mauritius. However, I guess this is perhaps only the central grant and clubs can raise additional funds. Thoughts anyone? Number 5 7 20:16, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Hi, having recently contacted IFK Norrköping, to ask about a player, they told me that the Superettan Swedish second tier division is a fully professional league, is that correct? thanks Atlantic306 ( talk) 19:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
No, just this email :
Hello,
We played in the swedish second division while Dago Funes played here. The second division called Superettan is a fully professional league.
Best regards, Fredrik Nilsson IFK Norrköping
Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: Jimmy Knott [4] Skickat: den 25 mars 2017 20:57 Till: IFK Norrköping Info Ämne: Dago Funes
Hi, can you please tell me whether Dago Funes played in the Swedish premier league while he was at your club. The reason I am asking is that the English Wikipedia article on him can only be kept if he has played in a fully professional league or his national team, thanks Jimmy Knott
Will ask them about rs tomorrow, thanks Atlantic306 ( talk) 19:48, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
So the Indian Women's League began a couple days ago. According to the All India Football Federation themselves, the league is professional. Other, independent sources such as the Indian Express and Tribune India have called the league professional, with the league being launched with a "bang" and Indian international footballers will be participating in the tournament. The Tribune article provides a bit more information, mainly that the league will/is being broadcasted on the AIFF website and that sponsors were hard to find, if any, but the league is still being organized in a professional matter along the same lines as the fully-professional Indian Super League. Players are also being paid to play in the league which I think helps. -- ArsenalFan700 ( talk) 04:41, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
I propose that the Championnat National (the third tier of French football) is considered as a fully professional league. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether our definition of fully-professional relates to the clubs participating in a league or the players playing in a league. In the Championnat National (and the three tiers below) it is the case that players are paid a minimum wage through a federal contract (contrat fédéral) with the Union Nationale des Footballeurs Professionnels ( UNFP). Note that these are standard contracts written by the FFF and validated by the UNFP. ( Source - see section 3 Qu'est-ce qu'un contrat fédéral?)
In the National, it is obligatory that players sign a full-time (i.e. 35 hours per week) contract (again, see section 3 in previous link). Players in lower divisions on the federal contracts have the option to work part-time (60%) so I am not proposing that these are fully professional league (however, neither are they amateur as the English translation of their name suggests but that's another matter). Players are then put into one of three categories largely depending on their previous career, and given a certain number of points. Each point counts towards the player's wage, at a value of €14.40 (roughly £12.20, US$15.30) per point for the 2016–17 season ( Source). The three categories are as follows:
Therefore, a player in the Championnat National is earning anywhere between €1,872 (£1,588, US$1,991) and €3,600 (£3,054, US$3,830) per month. To my mind, this is clearly enough money to qualify as fully professional. But as I said at the start, it is the players who are professional rather than the clubs. Is this acceptable under our current guidelines? BigDom ( talk) 10:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Greek Football League 2 no longer officially exists. When used, it reffers to Gamma Ethniki as stated by the article itself. Also, the article in its lead says that it is an amateur league( Gamma Ethniki (Greek: Γ΄ Εθνική Ερασιτεχνική Κατηγορία, C National Amateur Division), is the third highest football league in Greece. ) Additionally, The Greek football federation includes it in their regulations for amateur matches [1]. For these reasons, I propose to remove this league from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues-- Kostas20142 ( talk) 13:05, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
How are we treating 2016 Indonesia Soccer Championship A, which was in 2016 the top league in Indonesia, with the same teams that used to play in the listed at WP:FPL Indonesia Super League. For that matter, how are we treating the 2017 replacement 2017 Liga 1 which again is planned to use the same teams from 2015 Indonesia Super League. I'm seeing prods for players who played in 2016? I've seen no indication that any of these teams have become non-fully-professional. Nfitz ( talk) 23:38, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure why this is listed as a FPL. If it ever was, it hasn't been for a number of years. Dumbarton have played at that level for some years as a part-time club, [5] although they are in some danger of relegation this year. Jmorrison230582 ( talk) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Delist - Last night I watched two more part-time clubs, Alloa Athletic and Brechin City, playing-off to join Dumbarton in next year's Championship. Brechin won on penalties to delight their 41-year-old player/manager, and the "pitch invasion" was slightly strange in that the players clearly knew all the fans who came on! One side of Brechin's ground is famously a hedge – in the first leg of this play-off final (presumably their biggest home game of the season) they attracted a crowd of 700, despite slashing prices and letting u16s in free. Apparently the guy who hit the winning penalty is returning to England as he's finishing his course at Stirling University. Post match, some of the players got in wheelie bins full of cold water at the side of the pitch. Don't get me wrong it was an enjoyable watch and I'm sure me and the few hundred other people who tuned to BBC Alba went away entertained. But "fully professional"? Not on your nelly. Or "nae chance" to borrow the vernacular. Hibernian and (possibly) Dundee United going up to the Premiership will leave the Championship with vastly-reduced coverage and average attendances if that is going to be our metric. I'd also point out that the references which are supposed to support this League's inclusion on the list appear to date from before the League's creation. Bring back Daz Sampson ( talk) 09:40, 21 May 2017 (UTC)