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I know its been discussed to death. But over the years many clubs have been professional, to the point around 2008 nearly every club in the top division was fully professional.
Here is an article discussing the contracts players have - top players making €3,500 per week a few seasons ago (relative to 2015), now making €1000 per week. Its a healthy professional wage. Not just the top players are paid, goes on to say alot of lads were making €500 to €600 per week now only making about €200 per week. All the same these lads are still on professional contracts.
Another article about contracts here.
http://www.the42.ie/league-of-ireland-40-week-contracts-2015529-Mar2015/
Is it because the lads are only on 40 week professional contracts that it is not considered fully professional? I don't understand why that would matter. They work 40 weeks in a year, and take a few months off. Still making a living from football. Its not that they are doing some other job on the side to supplement their earning. The 40 week thing is just a technicality - as the author discusses.
Now I am not saying that the lads get paid a lot some are but not all. But they get paid. €16,000 per year is decent enough wage for a young 20-something year old (i'm sure the PFAI chairman would disagree, but I remember my first job out of college and asking for about the same figure as that).
And there has to be some realisation that the top division was all but professional when a significant number of players were pocketing over €100,000 per annum at the end of the Celtic Tiger era. The article doesn't mention the average wage at the end of the Celtic Tiger era but it could be inferred to be about 3 times the 2015 average of €16,000 which would be €48,000. Which is professional in anyone's money. Why can't the players who played during this era be considered notable?
In my mind the top clubs paying €1000 per week (over €4000 per month) are fully professional. So I don't understand when the likes of Shamrock Rovers, or Dundalk play in the Group Stages (not qualifying stages) of the Europa League against other pro teams that it does not qualify the players as notable. I thought there was a general agreement on this that it would. After all the Europa League is in effect a fully professional league and if fully pro clubs like Dundalk or Rovers play in it then why can't their players have wiki articles.
I have tried to make a positive contribution to the wiki, creating articles for notable players. But I have been thwarted and turned upon by the wiki elite, and to be honest I couldn't really be bothered any more.
All the players in the league of Ireland are members of the PFAI - the "Professional" Footballers Association of Ireland. Does that not say something?
Also a little more reading.
http://www.newstalk.com/Professional-football-doesnt-pay-enough-to-fund-a-mortgage-or-get-married
Like I said, its not a big wage, but the word of note throughout the whole article is professional, professional, professional. This is a PFAI spokesman, so of course he is going to prepare his comments to look for more support for his professional players - so I would not get hung up on the fact that he complains they are not paid enough to get a mortgage. Other articles that I have posted show that a significant number earn a very good wage and would have no problem supporting a mortgage/family etc.
DavidDublin ( talk) 02:34, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
"Basically, there are two types of players playing the game in organized football associations: amateurs and professionals. FIFA defines professionals as players who have a written contract with a club and are paid more for their footballing activity than the expenses they effectively incur. All other players are considered to be amateurs (some of them are paid for playing, some not)."
http://blog.fieldoo.com/2012/08/contracts-in-professional-football-player-club/. Yes it is just a blog and he has no sources (I can spend time looking for an official source), but there needs to be some sort of definition of what is and what is not a professional footballer and not something that is just decided at the whim of the wiki elite.
I would be very confident that every player in the Top Level of the League of Ireland has a written contract and are paid above expenses incurred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidDublin ( talk • contribs) 11:00, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
What about Scotland is £600 per week (Ross County avg wage for Premier Division club) enough to cover normal living costs in Scotland if €400 is not enough for Ireland? What about The teams below Scotland in the Scottish 1st who will be paying even less than £600 per week and probably less than €400 per week too - but they are fully professional? Where do you come up with your arbitrary distinction between a pro wage and a semi pro wage? What about the Portuguese 2nd Division, the Polish 2nd and 3rd tier. Has the same rules been applied to these teams. If not then why is it that the league of Ireland has to prove a level of wages beyond what the other leagues have to prove. http://www.globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS%202015.pdf. The professional level of the top League of Ireland teams at least is almost at the level of MLS teams like Real Salt Lake City, Scottish Premier League teams like Motherwell,Partick Thistle, Ross County, Saint Mirren, J-League teams, CFL teams. And the rest of the division's level of professionalism is very close to the level of Ross County and at least on par with the Scottish Championship. And dare I say streets ahead of the lower divisions in Poland and Portugal. What about Nigeria £130 per week and that is fully pro? http://screamer.deadspin.com/chart-the-average-player-salaries-in-soccer-leagues-ar-1658856283 The average wage in League 2 in England is £800 per week http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-english-football-wage-disparities-between-the-divisions/92692/ It hardly dwarfs the League of Ireland salaries. I would say the lower leagues in Spain and Italy pay significantly less than that £800 per week but no question about them being included in the list of fully pro leagues. DavidDublin ( talk) 12:11, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Can we get some consensus that the league was professional in the mid 2000's when the top players were making €100,000+, a lot of players were on €600 per week and I estimate the average wage must have been at least 3 times the current average which is €16,000 making it €45,000 plus. Does anyone have an argument against this meeting the professional criteria as has been enough for other leagues? DavidDublin ( talk) 18:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
In my opinion it is fully pro right now as all players are on professional contracts according to the PFAI ( http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/pfai-looks-to-help-airtricity-league-players-supplement-income-1.2174569) and according to FIFA laws on footballing contracts.
Some quotes from above link
"The hope is that the move will enable some of the country’s 200 or so professionals to better make ends meet at a time that the average amount earned by a Premier Division player is just €16,000 per annum"...
"McGuinness readily acknowledges that the average figure of just €400 means many are on far less with some, he suggests, on the €100 minimum figure used to define a professional." ..
Although officially professional, the wages quoted in that source (and the same average is quoted in a number of other sources I posted) are rather low. But that is just today's landscape.
"So while the tail-end of the Celtic Tiger resulted in more than 20 players earning in excess of €100,000, with one unnamed player taking home €180,000 in his basic salary ...... This year the highest earner in the League of Ireland is on €40,000 per year."
This states that towards the end of the Celtic Tiger top players were earning 4 to 5 times what they are earning now.
The below article also supports the view that wages were at least 3 times higher in the past.
"We have a lot of lads who were earning €500 or €600 a few seasons ago who are getting a third of that now"
No other league has provided reliable sources confirming categorically that their league is fully professional and for what years it remained fully professional. Many leagues have been accepted after links pointing to the average wages, or links quoting managers/players happy for individual clubs to have maintained a full time status. Some links are sources are 14 years old without any new sources confirming what level of professionalism was maintained. We need common sense and for the guidelines to be applied fairly and equally. If they are applied fairly then I can't even understand why we are arguing that a league where top players were paid €100,000 to €200,000 per year is not professional. And where the average wage was likely at least 3 times the current €16,000 per year for the division as a whole (not just top teams). This is professional.
Can you please add the League of Ireland Premier Division 2000-2005 to the list of fully professional leagues?
DavidDublin ( talk) 21:12, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
We have been here before and reached what I thought was a reasonable consensus
"We do have to draw the line somewhere. In the case that you're talking about where Bohemians will soon play a European match against another professional side, then the players in that match would pass WP:ATHLETE, in the same way that a player with a Scottish or English club who hadn't played a league match would become notable (eg Darren Fletcher made his Man Utd debut in the Champions League). It would be up to whoever was contributing to the article to reference that appearance, then the article would not be in dispute. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2009 "
A reliable source was asked for before and was provided in the way of an article from the BBC stating categorically that the League of Ireland was fully professional. But for the League of Ireland that didn't cut it at the time.
If the guidelines do not allow you to add League of Ireland Premier Division, or even League of Ireland Premier Division 2000-2005, then the very least you can do is add Europa League as a fully professional competition and Champions League as fully professional competition. DavidDublin ( talk) 22:46, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
USL should be removed from the list of fully professional leagues and the players articles marked with AfD. The players are not under contract and are only paid during the season from March to September. A good player earns $2000 per month. Even reports that some make as little as $50 per week. In the interest of applying the guidelines fairly this league should be removed.
For NASL players it is not unheard of for bench players to be paid room and board according to this source. For many players the season only serves as a part time job. One of the former owners of the Carolina Railhawks said players in the NASL were making $1800 to $3200 a month for 8 months. This was 2012-2013. That was the last sort of official statement on salary. DavidDublin ( talk) 12:08, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
How about Spanish lower division league, Segunda División B. Is it considered fully professional or not? Segunda División is considered fully professional though. Hitro talk 14:36, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, it's not on the list but Wikipedia article about this league says that it is a fully professional league. Can someone check whether this league is fully professional or not? If it is, then it maybe added to the list. Hitro talk 16:24, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
I am here for last 10 years, I know these basic essays. I mean to say that if there are possibilities of this league being a fully professional then we should find out and add it to the list. I am not saying that we should add it to the list just because Wikipedia article says so. I did my research and couldn't find anything in reliable sources that confirms the actual status of this league. Hitro talk 16:56, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
That is what I am requesting "Can somebody check on the status of this league?". Not intentionally, but you have misguided this discussion. Hitro talk 17:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, that clears the confusion. Actually, while patrolling new pages, I came across articles about footballers who are playing in this league but their clubs were part of professional leagues previously, so for tagging the article properly, I wanted to be sure. I forgot to put those articles in my watchlist and I have lost them now. :) Hitro talk 17:35, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
So, Swedens Damallsvenskan and Netherlands Eredivisie are listed fully pro. I doubt that. There is probably more money to earn in Germany than both of those. Here is a 2014 source saying the average Bundesliga club's budget is 900,000€. The linked PDF, although that's from 2007 estimates 150,000€ per club. - Koppapa ( talk) 07:11, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Is the Ecuadorian Serie A professional? According to the Spanish page the league went professional in 2002-03 but this is uncited. It is not listed as either professional or semi-professional on the league list. Inter&anthro ( talk) 20:22, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | → | Archive 25 |
I know its been discussed to death. But over the years many clubs have been professional, to the point around 2008 nearly every club in the top division was fully professional.
Here is an article discussing the contracts players have - top players making €3,500 per week a few seasons ago (relative to 2015), now making €1000 per week. Its a healthy professional wage. Not just the top players are paid, goes on to say alot of lads were making €500 to €600 per week now only making about €200 per week. All the same these lads are still on professional contracts.
Another article about contracts here.
http://www.the42.ie/league-of-ireland-40-week-contracts-2015529-Mar2015/
Is it because the lads are only on 40 week professional contracts that it is not considered fully professional? I don't understand why that would matter. They work 40 weeks in a year, and take a few months off. Still making a living from football. Its not that they are doing some other job on the side to supplement their earning. The 40 week thing is just a technicality - as the author discusses.
Now I am not saying that the lads get paid a lot some are but not all. But they get paid. €16,000 per year is decent enough wage for a young 20-something year old (i'm sure the PFAI chairman would disagree, but I remember my first job out of college and asking for about the same figure as that).
And there has to be some realisation that the top division was all but professional when a significant number of players were pocketing over €100,000 per annum at the end of the Celtic Tiger era. The article doesn't mention the average wage at the end of the Celtic Tiger era but it could be inferred to be about 3 times the 2015 average of €16,000 which would be €48,000. Which is professional in anyone's money. Why can't the players who played during this era be considered notable?
In my mind the top clubs paying €1000 per week (over €4000 per month) are fully professional. So I don't understand when the likes of Shamrock Rovers, or Dundalk play in the Group Stages (not qualifying stages) of the Europa League against other pro teams that it does not qualify the players as notable. I thought there was a general agreement on this that it would. After all the Europa League is in effect a fully professional league and if fully pro clubs like Dundalk or Rovers play in it then why can't their players have wiki articles.
I have tried to make a positive contribution to the wiki, creating articles for notable players. But I have been thwarted and turned upon by the wiki elite, and to be honest I couldn't really be bothered any more.
All the players in the league of Ireland are members of the PFAI - the "Professional" Footballers Association of Ireland. Does that not say something?
Also a little more reading.
http://www.newstalk.com/Professional-football-doesnt-pay-enough-to-fund-a-mortgage-or-get-married
Like I said, its not a big wage, but the word of note throughout the whole article is professional, professional, professional. This is a PFAI spokesman, so of course he is going to prepare his comments to look for more support for his professional players - so I would not get hung up on the fact that he complains they are not paid enough to get a mortgage. Other articles that I have posted show that a significant number earn a very good wage and would have no problem supporting a mortgage/family etc.
DavidDublin ( talk) 02:34, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
"Basically, there are two types of players playing the game in organized football associations: amateurs and professionals. FIFA defines professionals as players who have a written contract with a club and are paid more for their footballing activity than the expenses they effectively incur. All other players are considered to be amateurs (some of them are paid for playing, some not)."
http://blog.fieldoo.com/2012/08/contracts-in-professional-football-player-club/. Yes it is just a blog and he has no sources (I can spend time looking for an official source), but there needs to be some sort of definition of what is and what is not a professional footballer and not something that is just decided at the whim of the wiki elite.
I would be very confident that every player in the Top Level of the League of Ireland has a written contract and are paid above expenses incurred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidDublin ( talk • contribs) 11:00, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
What about Scotland is £600 per week (Ross County avg wage for Premier Division club) enough to cover normal living costs in Scotland if €400 is not enough for Ireland? What about The teams below Scotland in the Scottish 1st who will be paying even less than £600 per week and probably less than €400 per week too - but they are fully professional? Where do you come up with your arbitrary distinction between a pro wage and a semi pro wage? What about the Portuguese 2nd Division, the Polish 2nd and 3rd tier. Has the same rules been applied to these teams. If not then why is it that the league of Ireland has to prove a level of wages beyond what the other leagues have to prove. http://www.globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS%202015.pdf. The professional level of the top League of Ireland teams at least is almost at the level of MLS teams like Real Salt Lake City, Scottish Premier League teams like Motherwell,Partick Thistle, Ross County, Saint Mirren, J-League teams, CFL teams. And the rest of the division's level of professionalism is very close to the level of Ross County and at least on par with the Scottish Championship. And dare I say streets ahead of the lower divisions in Poland and Portugal. What about Nigeria £130 per week and that is fully pro? http://screamer.deadspin.com/chart-the-average-player-salaries-in-soccer-leagues-ar-1658856283 The average wage in League 2 in England is £800 per week http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-english-football-wage-disparities-between-the-divisions/92692/ It hardly dwarfs the League of Ireland salaries. I would say the lower leagues in Spain and Italy pay significantly less than that £800 per week but no question about them being included in the list of fully pro leagues. DavidDublin ( talk) 12:11, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Can we get some consensus that the league was professional in the mid 2000's when the top players were making €100,000+, a lot of players were on €600 per week and I estimate the average wage must have been at least 3 times the current average which is €16,000 making it €45,000 plus. Does anyone have an argument against this meeting the professional criteria as has been enough for other leagues? DavidDublin ( talk) 18:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
In my opinion it is fully pro right now as all players are on professional contracts according to the PFAI ( http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/pfai-looks-to-help-airtricity-league-players-supplement-income-1.2174569) and according to FIFA laws on footballing contracts.
Some quotes from above link
"The hope is that the move will enable some of the country’s 200 or so professionals to better make ends meet at a time that the average amount earned by a Premier Division player is just €16,000 per annum"...
"McGuinness readily acknowledges that the average figure of just €400 means many are on far less with some, he suggests, on the €100 minimum figure used to define a professional." ..
Although officially professional, the wages quoted in that source (and the same average is quoted in a number of other sources I posted) are rather low. But that is just today's landscape.
"So while the tail-end of the Celtic Tiger resulted in more than 20 players earning in excess of €100,000, with one unnamed player taking home €180,000 in his basic salary ...... This year the highest earner in the League of Ireland is on €40,000 per year."
This states that towards the end of the Celtic Tiger top players were earning 4 to 5 times what they are earning now.
The below article also supports the view that wages were at least 3 times higher in the past.
"We have a lot of lads who were earning €500 or €600 a few seasons ago who are getting a third of that now"
No other league has provided reliable sources confirming categorically that their league is fully professional and for what years it remained fully professional. Many leagues have been accepted after links pointing to the average wages, or links quoting managers/players happy for individual clubs to have maintained a full time status. Some links are sources are 14 years old without any new sources confirming what level of professionalism was maintained. We need common sense and for the guidelines to be applied fairly and equally. If they are applied fairly then I can't even understand why we are arguing that a league where top players were paid €100,000 to €200,000 per year is not professional. And where the average wage was likely at least 3 times the current €16,000 per year for the division as a whole (not just top teams). This is professional.
Can you please add the League of Ireland Premier Division 2000-2005 to the list of fully professional leagues?
DavidDublin ( talk) 21:12, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
We have been here before and reached what I thought was a reasonable consensus
"We do have to draw the line somewhere. In the case that you're talking about where Bohemians will soon play a European match against another professional side, then the players in that match would pass WP:ATHLETE, in the same way that a player with a Scottish or English club who hadn't played a league match would become notable (eg Darren Fletcher made his Man Utd debut in the Champions League). It would be up to whoever was contributing to the article to reference that appearance, then the article would not be in dispute. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2009 "
A reliable source was asked for before and was provided in the way of an article from the BBC stating categorically that the League of Ireland was fully professional. But for the League of Ireland that didn't cut it at the time.
If the guidelines do not allow you to add League of Ireland Premier Division, or even League of Ireland Premier Division 2000-2005, then the very least you can do is add Europa League as a fully professional competition and Champions League as fully professional competition. DavidDublin ( talk) 22:46, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
USL should be removed from the list of fully professional leagues and the players articles marked with AfD. The players are not under contract and are only paid during the season from March to September. A good player earns $2000 per month. Even reports that some make as little as $50 per week. In the interest of applying the guidelines fairly this league should be removed.
For NASL players it is not unheard of for bench players to be paid room and board according to this source. For many players the season only serves as a part time job. One of the former owners of the Carolina Railhawks said players in the NASL were making $1800 to $3200 a month for 8 months. This was 2012-2013. That was the last sort of official statement on salary. DavidDublin ( talk) 12:08, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
How about Spanish lower division league, Segunda División B. Is it considered fully professional or not? Segunda División is considered fully professional though. Hitro talk 14:36, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, it's not on the list but Wikipedia article about this league says that it is a fully professional league. Can someone check whether this league is fully professional or not? If it is, then it maybe added to the list. Hitro talk 16:24, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
I am here for last 10 years, I know these basic essays. I mean to say that if there are possibilities of this league being a fully professional then we should find out and add it to the list. I am not saying that we should add it to the list just because Wikipedia article says so. I did my research and couldn't find anything in reliable sources that confirms the actual status of this league. Hitro talk 16:56, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
That is what I am requesting "Can somebody check on the status of this league?". Not intentionally, but you have misguided this discussion. Hitro talk 17:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, that clears the confusion. Actually, while patrolling new pages, I came across articles about footballers who are playing in this league but their clubs were part of professional leagues previously, so for tagging the article properly, I wanted to be sure. I forgot to put those articles in my watchlist and I have lost them now. :) Hitro talk 17:35, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
So, Swedens Damallsvenskan and Netherlands Eredivisie are listed fully pro. I doubt that. There is probably more money to earn in Germany than both of those. Here is a 2014 source saying the average Bundesliga club's budget is 900,000€. The linked PDF, although that's from 2007 estimates 150,000€ per club. - Koppapa ( talk) 07:11, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Is the Ecuadorian Serie A professional? According to the Spanish page the league went professional in 2002-03 but this is uncited. It is not listed as either professional or semi-professional on the league list. Inter&anthro ( talk) 20:22, 12 October 2016 (UTC)