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Hi all,
I'm having a go at attacking this article but would like some input (/help if anyone wants). The current list is not overly informative and is partially missing information therefore I'm looking to redesign it from 1) to 2) but would welcome any suggestions. My main sticking point is do people want large club names or small club names? (I'm aware that I skipped to 7, just wanted to display a longer example).
1)
Name | Nationality | Goals [a] | Games [b] | Position | Seasons [c] | Clubs [d] | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Arthur Rowley | England | 433 | 619 | FW | 19 | 4 | [e] [1] |
Dixie Dean | England | 379 | 438 | FW | 16 | 3 | [f] [2] |
Jimmy Greaves | England | 357 | 516 | FW | 13 | 3 | [g] [3] |
2)
Rank | Name | Goals | Apps | Ratio | Years | Clubs | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Arthur Rowley | 434 | 619 | 0.70 | 1946–1965 | West Bromwich Albion (4), Fulham (27), Leicester City (251), Shrewsbury Town (152) | [4] |
2 | Dixie Dean | 379 | 438 | 0.87 | 1923–1939 | Tranmere Rovers (27), Everton (349), Notts County (3) | [h] [5] |
3 | Jimmy Greaves | 357 | 516 | 0.69 | 1957–1971 | Chelsea (124), Tottenham Hotspur (220), West Ham United (13) | [i] [6] |
7 | Harry Bedford | 326 | 485 | 0.67 | 1919–1934 | Nottingham Forest (8), Blackpool (112), Derby County (160), Newcastle United (17), Sunderland (2), Bradford Park Avenue (15), Chesterfield (12) | [2] |
References
Notes
war
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Thanks. Felixsv7 ( talk) 15:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello, fellow Wikipedian football enthusiasts. I hope you are all doing well and staying safe during these difficult and unprecedented times following the outbreak of Covid-19. I had a query over a recurring and important issue in Wikipedia footballer pages to which I and other users were hoping to find a solution; we have opened this discussion in the past, but although some of us voted, and I personally thought at the time that we had come to a consensus as it had been archived and a majority of users had voted in support of one argument, it in fact was never fully resolved, and a few users, including myself, are hoping that we can vote again and finally come to a consensus in order to avoid future arguments and inaccuracies on wikipedia football pages over similar matters. To summarise what I will discuss in the following paragraphs, for those of you who merely want to save time by skimming them or skipping over them to the final paragraph, the main issue is whether players should be credited with Supercup titles for which they were not called up, even if a reliable source credits them with this title (e.g. their club profile; I know that even reliable newspapers or commonly used sources such as Soccerway or Eurosport, although generally reliable, aren't always helpful when it comes to this, as there can be discrepancies or inaccuracies, and sometimes they can contradict one another). The main player who is the source of this debate is Lionel Messi, who is credited with the 2005 Supercopa de España title on his wikipedia page, and in his official Barcelona profile, even though he was not called up for the competition, although this discussion can be applied to a larger issue which is often encountered by editors of footballers' pages on wikipedia.
One of the problems is that in different countries there seem to be different regulations regarding which football players receive winners' medals in different competitions, and there doesn't seem to be much specific information on this, or a way to resolve this lack of facts on this matter. Obviously I know that in English football regulations are very strict on which players receive winners' medals for these titles, and they need to have been at least called up for the national, league, or Supercup final in order to receive a medal, or make at least five appearances in the league. Having said that, I'm not sure if the same rules apply for Spanish football, or any other country's football association, as I also know that in Italian football, things are slightly different, for example. Squad sizes have been limited to 25 players, and 30 medals are issued to a winning team for players and coaching staff – as shown here in an official source regarding regulations for the 2008 Supercoppa Italiana. I do think that when it comes domestic league and Cup titles – excluding England which has very strict regulations on this – that it is safe to say that a player can receive a winners' medal without appearing in the competition, as is shown by title assigning ceremonies (for example the ceremony for the 2017 Coppa Italia final, where Gianluigi Buffon is presented with a winners' medal without having appeared in the competition), but with Supercups, it's a rather different matter. I realise that one cannot confirm who exactly received a medal if they weren't called up for the match, but then again I found a picture of Simone Inzaghi with a 2009 Supercoppa Italiana medal round his neck even though he wasn't in the squad for the final (as can be seen in the picture in this article here from a reliable source like Sky Sport Italia, so situations like these can create problems, although I understand that using photographic evidence can count as original research). In this case, however, as mentioned in the opening paragraph, the main player that we are discussing is Lionel Messi, and whether or not he should be credited with the 2005 Spanish Supercup:
A while back, @ PeeJay2K3: and @ Aavelarx: had discussed with @ Paulinho28: and me on Messi's talk page (archived discussions are shown here and here) that they felt the 2005 Supercopa de España should be removed from his list of honours (while we had disagreed at the time, although at the moment, I think that I am of the opinion that it should be removed), as he was not called up for either leg of the final (see here and here). However, [1] this official Barcelona source mentions that he and Andrés Iniesta are the players with the most honours at the club and lists them as both having won that title; his official club profile also lists this title under the honours section. PeeJay2K3 has argued that he wasn't part of the club's "A" squad at the time, as according to this page and this report (I had commented that while this is an interesting point, I'm not sure that these would be considered reliable sources on wikipedia), he wore the number 30 at the start of the season and was re-registered with the number 19 later on (in a game against Celta Vigo on 20 December 2005, Messi was wearing #30 – see here – and then against Espanyol on 7 January 2006, he was wearing #19 – see here); he also added that players in Spanish clubs' "A" squads had to wear numbers between 1 and 25 at the time, which indicates that Messi was not part of the "A" squad at the start of the season, and that it would therefore be unfeasible to consider the player to have won an honour if they weren't part of the club's "A" squad at the time.
However, although I thought that he made a valid point and that these arguments seemed reasonable and insightful, I didn't have any reliable sources which confirmed this. I tried looking for information on Spanish articles or official La Liga BBVA sources regarding squad numbers in Spanish football and their correlation with whether players were registered with the A or B team and found no such information (also, to make matters more confusing, Damià Abella was on the bench for the first leg of the 2005 Supercopa de España, and he had the number 32 at the time). I do know that the Messi wiki article cites a reliable source from a biography on the player by Balagué] and mentions that: "On 24 June 2005, his 18th birthday, Messi signed his first contract as a senior team player. It made him a Barcelona player until 2010, two years less than his previous contract, but his buyout clause increased to €150 million." This for me is proof that he was a first-team player at the time (especially as the Supercopa took place in August that year, and he made no appearances for the B team that season, while making 17 La Liga appearances and 25 in all competitions despite injury). I also remember that later in August, after the Supercopa, Fabio Capello wanted to sign him on loan after seeing his impressive performance when he started against Juventus in the Joan Gamper Trophy (which Hunter's book on Barcelona, which is cited in Messi's wiki article, also corroborates); moreoever, the Barca Wiki article for the 2005–06 season also lists Messi as being promoted to the first team.
Barcelona have credited him with that title on their official club profile for Messi on their official website, even though he wasn't called up for that match, but there doesn't seem to be a way to confirm that he received a medal, and PeeJay2K3 has rightly suggested that there might be a degree of bias, even though the club's profile of the player is generally reliable, and there doesn't seem to be a better source that contradicts this, even though some sources are contradictory. Moreover, @ Anakimi: cited an interesting source from the LFP, the organizer of this cup, which seemed to recognise Messi to have won the title, which led me to believe that he should be credited with it at the time; however, his honours have since been deleted form his LFP profile, so this seems to clear that issue up. With all of this in mind, I wanted to see if we could actually arrive at a consensus over whether Messi should be credited with the 2005 Spanish Supercup or not, so that we can finally resolve this problem, and any future disputes over this, and so that we can use this as a guideline for whether other players should be credited with supercup titles in which they weren't at least called up. Should official club sources be taken into account? Or are sources such as Soccerway acceptable in the case that players did not appear in a particular competition or receive a call-up for a final? Or should they be removed altogether instead? I can see both sides of the argument, so I wanted input from more users.
I know that this is a lot of information and a lengthy discussion, but I hope that this post isn't too long or convoluted; please don't merely respond with "TLDR," as I've been trying to include as much information as possible and to relay events as accurately as possible, and have taken the time out to do this, so I'd appreciate some common courtesy as I also always try to be respectful on here. Please do feel free to ask for clarification if you have any questions, and to the users that I have tagged – @ Quite A Character:, @ Vaselineeeeeeee:, @ Kante4:, @ Koncorde:, @ Spike 'em:, @ Crowsus:, @ Jts1882:, @ Nintendonix:, @ Govvy:, @ Davefelmer:, @ Mohammadyunusp:, @ Mazewaxie:, @ Danieletorino2:, @ Sadsadas:, @ The Almightey Drill:, @ GiantSnowman: – please feel free to add any comments, information, or further clarification, so that hopefully we can vote on a mutual agreement, so that this issue can finally be resolved, regardless of our own personal preferences. Also, if we could please vote as soon as possible on whether Messi should be credited with the 2005 Supercopa de España (Yes) or not (No), and avoid a situation like the last one, where we didn't actually come to any agreement, that would be great.
Thank you! Best regards to everyone, and please do keep well and stay safe, Messirulez ( talk) 17:11, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Before answering below, I am copying my comments over from the Messi article talk page as points that I believe should be considered. /Start quote:
As there is an edit war going on here. A couple of points:
In conclusion; the answer is to err on the side of reliable sources even if it doesn't appear right. The second answer is to try and get clarification from Spanish FA or Barce directly as to what the criteria for inclusion was / is. May even be worth sending an email to a Catalan journalist who may be able to assist / verify the status by checking their archives.
/End quote. Koncorde ( talk) 17:20, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Please stay safe and keep well! Best regards, Messirulez ( talk) 21:39, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Please present your opinion regarding this edit. The Székely Land football team is not a national team, but a team representing the Székely Land in Romania. It is not affiliated with FIFA or UEFA. The Székely Land football team does not look like a national team, because it only represents the Székely minority in Romania. 82.78.61.178 ( talk) 07:09, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi, can temp protection be considered please. Not sure if he has actually left Celtic, will check shortly, but there's been a lot of slebbering halfwits dropping by over the last few days. Thanks. Crowsus ( talk) 21:08, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I am aware that the footballer and Homer Simpson's alter ego in Homer to the Max share the same name but anonymous IP addresses should not be using the joke Homer Simpson sung in the episode. It is just a coincidence that The Simpsons writers chose Homer Simpson's new name as Max Power in the episode and the footballer was born before that episode was made.
In this episode, Simpson was coincidentally named after a TV show he watched but stupidity from the character made the Dan Castellaneta character to change his name to Max Power.
As what Struway2 said to me, "Try not to let it get to you. It's only bored locked-down kids doing the electronic equivalent of chalking rude words on walls." This may be the work of bored people who want to get back to work/education out of their houses.
We had disruption yesterday but it was only reverted just now where I noticed the revert and saw the joke in the opening sentence in the difference between revisions view. That should not happen again given the player once feared he was named after Homer Simpson's alter ego. Iggy ( Swan) ( Contribs) 22:26, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
I've seen that Lnhbm ( talk · contribs) created several World Soccer XI templates by year, such as {{ 1963 World Soccer World XI}}, and he has systematically been adding them to multiple articles. The point is that no source confirms the existence of such awards or voting. Any thoughts? — Lesfer (t/ c/ @) 23:48, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi, just wanted to check on the preferred way of displaying the name of Sheffield Wednesday prior to 1929 (when the city name was added). I saw the existing article I was working on there ( George Robertson (footballer, born 1885)) had it piped to The Wednesday and, now in doubt, I changed it to that on one I created last week ( Robert McSkimming (footballer, born 1888)). I haven't looked at all of the contemporary players, but I know one of the most prominent at that time was ( Andrew Wilson (footballer, born 1880)), and when I checked his article, it had the Sheffield Wednesday name, which I haven't changed and came here instead. So for consistency, is it preferable to display the name in relevant articles as Sheffield Wednesday, The Wednesday, or Wednesday (I don't think 'the' was part of the official title either)? Thanks. Crowsus ( talk) 06:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Can we un do the move, there was no discussion for the change, and the editing there, I feel it's getting disruptive now, including the fact that flag-icons were re-added when we clearly have concerns over them. Govvy ( talk) 19:08, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Apologies, jumped the gun with the page move but the inclusion of further information relating to Premier League top scorers does warrant at least a discussion on the title. I did open a conversation about this subject on the Talk: page but to no response. As my pitch for amending the title: it would bring this page in line with the other articles of a similar nature, namely the La Liga and Bundesliga ones as well as allowing for the inclusion of additional tables such as the top scorer by club that was recently added. The 100+ aspect of the table needn't be mentioned in the title, only as a header for the actual table. Felixsv7 ( talk) 14:30, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
So the [ section] created by BundesBerti with top scorers by team was removed due to its mismatch with the article title therefore I'd like a discussion to change the title to List of Premier League top scorers to allow its inclusion and potentially expand the article with relevant information. Felixsv7 ( talk) 14:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I've stuck a move request on List of footballers with 100 or more Premier League goals. I'd appreciate your input! Felixsv7 ( talk) 10:59, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Just a heads up. I didn't realize the current flag of Wales was only adopted in 1959. So any flags for players playing before that year needs to use the old flag: The flag of South Africa was adopted in 1994, this is the previous one: Northern Ireland only separated from the team of Ireland in 1950. That looks to be a complicated and delicate issue. Do we have an agreement on not using the Ulster Banner even though it seemed to be used from 1953 to 1973? That would seem to be sensible to me.-- Echetus Xe 16:42, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
With Black Lives Matter such huge news maybe we could work on improving this article?-- Echetus Xe 16:22, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
I was just looking at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2019–20 Gheorghe Hagi Football Academy teams season and I was going to comment "Articles on individual seasons should only be created for articles in professional leagues as per......." and then I realised that I couldn't find anywhere where that is set down. Can anyone help? WP:SEASONS doesn't seem to be mention it as far as I can see. What am I overlooking......? -- ChrisTheDude ( talk) 10:55, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello team. I'm doing a sweep of play-off finals from 1987 to now in all three English divisions and one thing I'd like to note is the top scorer(s) for each team. Soccerway was helpful until it suddenly stopped including them around 2009. I'm sure Rothmans etc books have such information, I was wondering if any of our esteemed contributors could help me with this information? I'm currently stuck trying to source Mendonca as top scorer for Charlton in the 1997/98 season, so that's a start, but as I said, I'd like to do this work across all divisional play-offs for all years, so the "early" ones I sure could use some help with. Cheers. The Rambling Man ( Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:04, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Mattythewhite! Could you check something for me?
I've been reviewing List of English football first tier top scorers and seen that currently its list is not optimised therefore I was looking to bring it in line with Premier League Golden Boot using the format that I've provided below. In trying to find an accurate list of top scorers by league season I came across a discrepancy on List of English football champions where Jimmy Ross is said to have scored 24 goals in 1889-90 however I believe this includes FA Cup goals as it is stated to be 21 goals by Michael Slade - sourced below. I also wanted to see how many games each player had played in order to calculate the Goal:Game ratio but I'm not sure whether Rothman's provides this information. Could you help with either of these?
Season | Player | Club | Goals | Games | Rate | Ref(s) |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1888–89 | John Goodall | Preston North End§ | 21 | 21 | 1.00 | |
1889–90 | Jimmy Ross | Preston North End§ | 21 | 21 | 1.00 | [1] |
1890–91 | Jack Southworth | Blackburn Rovers | 26 | 22 | 1.18 | |
1891–92 | John Campbell | Sunderland§ | 32 | 26 | 1.23 |
References
Felixsv7 ( talk) 13:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Ali Alaaeddine was born in Kuwait, and played there until 2017. He was born to Lebanese parents, and never got Kuwaiti citizenship (as Kuwait doesn't allow dual-nationality). Would it make sense for the player to have the category Category:Lebanese expatriate sportspeople in Kuwait, despite him being born in the country? Nehme1499 ( talk) 22:56, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Unsure if I can put this here but I am looking for some people from this project to give me some assistance with editing the article Stockport County F.C.. I'm looking to make it a FA, and a lot of editing has been done to the article recently. I have put the article back into peer review and have included links to all of the older notes. There is a lot to read through but it gives you an idea of what has already been discussed/covered. Any advice would be appreciated. From advice I have been given I understand that the article needs to go through a GAR first before going back to FAC but if it can be made to FA standard then passing both shouldn't be a problem. Wna247 ( talk) 19:43, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
There appears to be an IP mass adding social media profiles for various footballers. I can roll these all back for now but I wanted others aware. Jay eyem ( talk) 04:30, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
please note that just linking me to WP:LINKSTOAVOID, which says "one should generally avoid providing external links to 10. Social networking sites (such as Myspace, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram) [etc.]" doesn't explain what the problem is in adding such links. It one shouldn't do it, not why not to do it.Struway2 already pointed the most important reason mentioned there: the content that players have on their social medias profiles tends to not be entirely relevant to their career which they are notable for. And there's also this bit – "clutter", "undue emphasis":
- However, Wikipedia does not provide a comprehensive web directory to every official website. Wikipedia does not attempt to document or provide links to every part of the subject's web presence or provide readers with a handy list of all social networking sites. Complete directories lead to clutter and to placing undue emphasis on what the subject says.
Govvy ( talk) 21:49, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
The article is at GA Talk:Phil Dwyer/GA1 but the nominator hasn't got the time to improve it to get it up to standard. Does anyone want to step in and complete the process?-- Echetus Xe 12:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Would someone from FOOTY mind taking a look at these articles? They might need a page move to 2020 Elite One and 2020 Nigeria Professional Football League respectively for naming consistency reasons since 2019 Elite One and 2019 Nigeria Professional Football League already exist. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Could somebody please create the kits from the 2000 AFC Asian Cup Final between Japan and Saudi Arabia? They look like this. WDM10 ( talk) 09:19, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
I moved to draft space for now, as I thought the article was good enough for there. However when I do that, should the redirect be deleted? Govvy ( talk) 13:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Some editors have created two separate pages: Kerala Blasters Youth and Academy and Kerala Blasters FC Reserves. I do not think they are notable enough to be separate pages, considering there is no notable academy either. Coderzombie ( talk) 15:46, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Requesting admins to change Kerala Blasters FC Reserves into Reserves and Academy. Shahoodu ( talk) 16:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello good folks. I sincerely apologise in advance, but could you all let know if fchd.info is still considered WP:RS? I intend to use some of its great coverage but I anticipate that someone looking at it for the first time will be like "WOAH, .txt files!" The Rambling Man ( Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:29, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I wanted to ask, was Grantham Town also known as Grantham Rovers in the late 1890s? I just edited Tom Morris and it says he played for Grantham Rovers. Govvy ( talk) 16:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello, everyone. I have come here to know an important thing related to information on footballer's Infobox. Which source or website is considered as the most verified and reliable one for information of a footballer (such as appearence and goals count)? I will be obliged if you guys help me by answering this question and providing the most reliable source. Thanks! – Waraka Saki ( talk) 06:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
One more thing, I want to know. For a specific information if different websites provide different statistics, then which one should I take? For better understanding, I'm giving few example in a table below (all information are without play-off matches, as on Wikipedia only league matches count):
Section | Wikipedia | Soccerway | Soccerbase | BDFutbol | Transfermarkt (with detail information about every mactches) | ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Apps | goals | Apps | goals | Apps | goals | Apps | goals | Apps | goals | ||
Rodri's Villarreal CF B | 39 | 1 | 41 | 2 | no information | 39 | 1 | 40 | 1 | ||
Dennis Praet's Anderlecht | 139 | 20 | 139 | 20 | 106 | 14 | no information | 104 | 14 | ||
Nacer Chadli's Twente | 84 | 25 | 84 | 25 | 77 | 23 | 78 | 23 | 78 | 23 |
Thanks a lot Robby.is.on, Hack, ChrisTheDude and Nehme1499 for helping me. Have a good day. - Waraka Saki ( talk) 10:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Ortizesp ( talk · contribs) works hard creating many-and-more footballer articles when a player plays their first eligible game, per WP:NFOOTY. However, he often writes the prose under the heading Professional career without any evidence that the player has signed a professional contract, and states that they made their professional debut in the game in question. On many occasions, in France at least, the player is playing on an amateur contract for the second team when he makes his senior debut. Often the player does go on to sign a professional contract, and these (in France) are the ones I find when sources become available - eg Mattéo Ahlinvi, Faiz Mattoir, Alexis Beka Beka from the last few weeks. These are the easy ones to find. There are many young players who don't go on to sign a professional contract, but move into lower leagues as amateur players, and finding these articles to correct them is hard.
Strictly speaking, calling a footballer a professional when they have never signed a professional contract is a BLP violation (in my view), and it's these I want to be able to track down and correct, rather than waiting for a (potential) news article regarding a professional contract signing.
I made a request on Ortizesp's talk in March 2019 asking that they note this and take care to use the correct terminology in future, however all three articles listed as exampled above were created after that date.
So I'm looking for help with two things, please:
Thanks, Gricehead ( talk) 10:30, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Liverpool has already become a champion, but some players have not played 5 matches in the championship. If they play the remaining matches before this threshold, will they be awarded a medal? David Cok 121 ( talk) 22:05, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
In Lebanon, there are two "league cups" (other than the league, domestic cup, and super cup): the Lebanese Elite Cup (for the top 6 teams of the previous league season), and the Lebanese Challenge Cup (bottom 6). For this year only, as the past league season was abandoned after only 3 games, the federation decided to do a preparatory tournament during the summer, which acts as a qualifier to either the Elite or Challenge Cup based on the club's position. The tournament isn't really that long (3 groups of 4 teams, one leg), and will not be repeated in the future: does it warrant its own article? Or should it be copied and pasted in both the 2020 Lebanese Elite Cup and 2020 Lebanese Challenge Cup articles? Nehme1499 ( talk) 09:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
So, with confirmation of the Premier League trophy finally going Liverpool's way possibly as soon as later this evening, there's going to be a deluge of people adding the title to players' honours sections. What are we thinking we should do: keep them omitted until the end of the season once the medals are actually awarded, or allow them to be added, with appropriate sourcing, to players who have reached the five appearance threshold? Thanks, Mattythewhite ( talk) 20:12, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
For example @ Mattythewhite: Caoimhín Kelleher has not played once for Liverpool in the League this season but has the honour added. I am sure there are many other examples. JMHamo ( talk) 09:14, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
While we're on the topic, I am thinking it would make sense for List of Premier League winning players to only be updated after the season has finished, once we know *definitively* what Liverpool's medal haul is and to give the Prem time to update their player profiles with the titles. I've already reverted the page a few times today so I need to keep my fingers away from it! Mattythewhite ( talk) 11:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Two IPs started "fighting" in the Italy national football team article over whether or not certain matches should be included in the upcoming fixtures. To solve the issue, I removed all the "recent results", replacing the section with a "Records and fixtures" section (see FA articles such as Belgium national football team). The logic being that recent results violate WP:RECENT. Both IPs reverted my edits, putting their own respective version of the section. How should we deal with this? Nehme1499 ( talk) 11:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
New UEFA calendar has been confirmed for each league ( A, B, C and D). Each group for each league has to be updated.-- 79.43.108.133 ( talk) 18:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Stage | Round | Dates |
---|---|---|
League phase | Matchday 1 | 3–5 September 2020 |
Matchday 2 | 6–8 September 2020 | |
Matchday 3 | 10–11 October 2020 | |
Matchday 4 | 13–14 October 2020 | |
Matchday 5 | 14–15 November 2020 | |
Matchday 6 | 17–18 November 2020 |
Ok, done by S.A. Julio.-- 79.43.108.133 ( talk) 17:03, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
I wanted to find a source when Man U signed him, a 2001 source, however I wasn't having much luck in my google searches and strangely the Man U season article doesn't mention signing him. Anyone able to help? Govvy ( talk) 13:27, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
This is likely to be reviewed soon. An opinion from members of this project would be valuable, whether it is accepted or declined. The article name is just a decent shot at naming it. That can change easily enough,. Fiddle Faddle 19:40, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi all I got a note on my talk page from TheRealGutripper. He has been adding a Most points in a single season table to the Premier League records and statistics page. And PeeJay2K3 has been removing them saying that it is not needed. I would like to know what others would think about adding this table to the page. Refs can be found for it if nessercery. REDMAN 2019 ( talk) 11:20, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Since when are we doing woman's football season pages for clubs? I've just come across;
Govvy ( talk) 11:18, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
How do you join WikiProject Football? AngusMacintosh ( talk) 15:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Ok thanks AngusMacintosh ( talk) 20:40, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
On this new article in the info box there is Romania Olympic, is that right? Or should it be written a different way? Govvy ( talk) 16:32, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
I came across Mauro Núñez Bastos going through the project's list of unreferenced BLPs and was wondering if anyone could provide any insight as to how he might pass WP:NFOOTY. Hack ( talk) 08:21, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi, currently we have an AfD in progress regarding the "merger" of two teams in India, ATK and Mohun Bagan. This AfD has been around since 17 June 2020 but has slowed down in discussion a lot recently. I just wanted to bring it up so to encourage more participation on a topic that has not reached a resolution yet.
Here is some sourced context for those interested: Prior to 2020, India had two top tier football leagues, the Indian Super League and the I-League. ATK plays in the Indian Super League and Mohun Bagan play in the I-League. However, on 16 January 2020 it was announced that RPSG Group, the owners of ATK, would purchase an 80% stake in Mohun Bagan Football Club, with "Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Private Limited" owning the remaining 20%. The only information we were given at the time were that the clubs would "merge", include the brand names of ATK and Mohun Bagan, and also play in the Indian Super League for 2020–21. We did not receive confirmation though on the official name of the club, any branding whatsoever, how the two squads would be merged, and whether the history of ATK and/or Mohun Bagan will be incorporated into this "new" club. It was reported that the "merged club" would come into being on 1 June 2020. Obviously, that didn't happen due to the current Covid-19 pandemic. On 8 June 2020, it was reported by Goal.com that the name ATK Mohun Bagan was registered with the Government of India’s Ministry of Corporate Affairs. However, to me at least, that is clickbait since the article doesn't actually discuss the team name but rather the new name of the corporation that will own the club "ATK Mohun Bagan Private Limited". As of today, both the Indian Super League and I-League social media accounts and official pages refer to the clubs as separate entities. Both ATK and Mohun Bagan still run their own social media channels and pages too. -- ArsenalFan700 ( talk) 16:53, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Take Robin Olsen as an example. His loan contract from Roma to Cagliari has expired (he won't complete the season). However, the Italian transfer window doesn't open until 1 September. Therefore, his transfer back to Roma can't be fully registered until then. So, since he currently can't play for either clubs, should the article say that "he plays for Cagliari on loan from Roma" or that "he plays for Roma"? // Mattias321 (talk) 16:18, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi, in this article an editor removed some external links with WP:ELNO item #1 as reason: "'the site should not merely repeat information that is already or should be in the article'. A heap of near-identical links to databases is no good".
Is it consensus now that we should remove these links? I wonder because good articles like Thierry Henry, Bert Trautmann, Lionel Messi, Thomas Müller etc. contain such links. -- Jaellee ( talk) 20:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Just to clarify, only one of the the external links in question was already used inline in the article, the two others weren't. So the two others shouldn't have been deleted without using them as inline references first as I understand this agreement. -- Jaellee ( talk) 17:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Can somebody please tidy up the WP:NPOV/ WP:SYNTH violations of @ Barton Dave: at Roberto Firmino? I'm about to reach 3RR - he has broken it. I am also about to explode with frustration. Giant Snowman 21:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Sadly, Wigan Athletic F.C. has gone into administration [1]. There is bound to be high traffic on this article and Wigan related articles, extra eyes are appreciated. JMHamo ( talk) 11:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
References
I've got Danel Sinani on my watchlist, and he has now been listed as a Norwich player. Whilst he was intended to sign on 1 July, I thought the transfer window wasn't open until after this season ends? So he'd still be a Dudelange player. Or am I wrong about that? FYI can't find any sources newer than April about it. Joseph 2302 ( talk) 10:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Just curious before the MLS is Back Tournament starts, how we will deal with appearances in this in the Infobox and Career Statistics tables. Essentially this is a "World Cup format style tournament with a group stage and knockout rounds" However, group stage matches will count towards the overall league table, while knockout rounds will not. So I assume that we will include the group stage matches in the Infobox, but not the knockout round matches. For the stats table, I guess we could do the same and throw the Knockout round matches in a "Cup" or "Other" column. However, I wanted to see if there was a consensus already established and get other perspectives before it starts rather than to rely on my own assumptions. I didn't see any mention of this in the talk page, so don't know if there is already an idea in place, since this is a very unconventional event. I can't recall any other hybrid league/cup tournaments RedPatchBoys ( talk) 21:31, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
This is a draft about a Belarusian women's soccer/football team that I put a lot of time into and is in the women's top division but does not have an article yet. 2601:643:8101:64E1:C5A6:3BBC:2358:658B ( talk) 23:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
I've just noticed that these pages has been created. Although they are likely to be in next season's Premier League, their current total of 45 points is too small for mathematical safety. Just one more win will do for them but these pages may have been created relatively too early. Iggy ( Swan) ( Contribs) 17:07, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Usually seasons end on 30 June this year. But this one won't for these clubs in the divisions for reasons we already know. I've been going around a few random club season articles, all says "The season covers the period from 1 July 2019 to 30 July 2020.". That would be factually incorrect due to scheduled matches in July. Iggy ( Swan) ( Contribs) 20:00, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
I was just curious, are we going to put the 1 July released players in this extended season or the next season pages? Govvy ( talk) 18:25, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I always let them stay on both articles at first. Don't want to get into an edit war with Coventry guy. And yeah on the off chance that someone wants to know what's new about the current season then it might be useful for them. But once the new season has got going then I remove them, because they shouldn't be there. Echetus Xe 11:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
I've always seen them in the 'next season' pages, as the season pages are often defined as covering the period "from 1 July 20xx to 30 June 20xx", thus the players released on 1 July should be included on this page, and not the previous season. Also, as mentioned above, this is more likely to affect the 'next' season, as most players released will find new clubs during this season, and this information can be added via efns, as seen here. Davidlofgren1996 ( talk) 12:18, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Has this guy actually played for Iran? I can't seem to be able to verify the sources or find anything. Govvy ( talk) 12:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
It seems like Comparisons between the North American Soccer League and Major League Soccer was created recently. What are the opinions of editors here? Walter Görlitz ( talk) 01:47, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
There's an ongoing edit war at FC Cincinnati changing the hatnote from "This article is about the Major League Soccer franchise. For the United Soccer League franchise, see FC Cincinnati (2016–18)." to "This article is about the Major League Soccer team. For the United Soccer League team, see FC Cincinnati (2016–18)." @ Walter Görlitz: has reverted it a several times. The IP editor has a point that there's an inconsistency, but there was also an argument a couple years back regarding the distinction between MLS franchises and normal soccer clubs - a team doesn't actually get "promoted" to MLS, a new franchise is created and the branding is transferred. I personally think "franchise" is a better distinction in the hatnotes for clubs like Portland, Orlando, Cincinnati, but I wanted to bring it here for a discussion considering the ongoing edit war. SportingFlyer T· C 04:07, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi all, just to make you aware of a potential WP:COI with @ A player of Burnley Football club:, who claims to be a Burnley F.C. player. Thanks, Mattythewhite ( talk) 09:58, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
This user page is currently suspicious as to who I think that could possibly be.
The text shows that he is a certain number of years younger than this player and the first section claims "I have so far managed to score a few goals for my team".
By using this player's date of birth with reliable sources confirming it, I have narrowed it down to five possible players who were all born in the same year. Then by using one of the opening sentences, I have narrowed it down to three players as two of them (both born in June of that year) have scored just once. The user also said he is a fan of Burnley (might be his home club?). If that's the case, there's only one possible person who that could be.
See if other users can investigate like User:Daemonickangaroo2018 who has undid a few of the user's contributions and User:Joseph2302 who has advised the user to remove the career section. User:ChrisTheDude may also assist. Iggy ( Swan) ( Contribs) 11:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
I think that it is highly unlikely that this user has any connection with Burnley FC, but is more likely a glory hunter from India, judging by the style of English that he uses. A quick look at his edit history shows that many of his edits are done early in the morning UK time. How many Premier League footballers are up and editing Wikipedia at that time? Also is it just a coincidence that the actor with the “funny name” that he met in a restaurant has the same initials as the Burnley player allegedly “outed” above. Daemonickangaroo2018 ( talk) 12:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
User has been blocked now. JMHamo ( talk) 12:37, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
These articles are subject to being edited with unsourced content relating to the manager. It relates to the possibility that he is no longer the manager of Bristol City but I should think he is until sources are added. Iggy ( Swan) ( Contribs) 17:42, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Has just been announced by the BBC [1] Davidlofgren1996 ( talk) 17:50, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
References
I am confused, but is not a breach of WP:COPYVIO?? Govvy ( talk) 10:52, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Also, this feels like the worse case of WP:OR, this comparison article? Surely this can't be suitable for wikipedia? Govvy ( talk) 10:54, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
I didn't feel this article is right for wikipedia and I put it forward for AfD to test the waters and see what others think. Govvy ( talk) 11:32, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
I've just come across this article at WP:RFPP and there seems to be an ongoing edit war surrounding whether Indian Super League is the top-tier of Indian football. I would appreciate some extra eyes on it if anyone has some insight. Woody ( talk) 14:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Is it really two top tier leagues just because I-League has an AFC spot? Like ArsenalFan700 said, AFC has deemed ISL as the top league and just for the transition, I-League is given AFC spot, that's my interpretation. Coderzombie ( talk) 09:11, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Is it possible to "shift" the starting position in a league table to something other than 1? For example, in the 2020–21 Lebanese Premier League there will be Top 6 and Bottom 6 competitions. It would be ideal for the Bottom 6 rankings to start from 7, rather than from 1. Nehme1499 ( talk) 11:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Morning all. I saw that Transfermarkt is considered unreliable on english wiki and wondered why. Looked for some old chat (2012) and read that the only reason why is that the site is users-made, reason that is false. Wikipedia and, for instance, Discogs for music are users-made because everyone could modify data and only after there is a verification. Transfermarkt, on the contrary, has his verification by the internal team before the data are modified: this is called "four eyes control", nothing can be published without a verification. It is a German site, much organised. I know that for some countries, data are exact but poor (Brazil, Argentina and even UK), but I know for sure that concerning Italia and Deutschland the data are perfect and complete, even for youth tournements. The same for national teams competitions. Hence, could the community consider, after eight years, to admit this site among the reliable ones? Thanks.-- Tre di tre ( talk) 08:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi, could someone help at Timo Werner, where first-team appearances and goals are constantly being from the infobox and career stats table? Mattythewhite ( talk) 15:46, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
I see that Dimspace just added the Premier League title back to Andy Lonergan's honours, when @ ChrisTheDude: removed it as Lonergan did not make a single appearance for Liverpool. Can this be reviewed? JMHamo ( talk) 09:06, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
I was wondering do we really need this split off or not? As 2011 FIFA Women's World Cup seems to contain most of the stats already. Govvy ( talk) 18:30, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Since when matches of Premier League International Cup are considered not official? 188.222.245.203 ( talk · contribs) is removing them from statistics and the source supporting the information at Bruno Lage.
First, IP made an accusation: falsified and made up statistics for Benfica B.
Then IP wrote: The tournament mentioned in the other statistics for Benfica B are not counted as official matches.; Premier League International Cup doesn't appear on ForaDeJogo's website! Therefore are not counted as official matches played as ForaDeJogo only shows league matches, as does the football database website!; removed unnecessary source material as the other two sources do not show the Premier League International Cup; NOT SHOWN IN OTHER TWO SOURCES! Therefore the sources do not back up the source from Zerozero.
Zerozero says Premier League International Cup matches are official. SLBedit ( talk) 22:13, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
And now IP is re-adding flags to managerial statistics infobox. SLBedit ( talk) 22:30, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
It shouldn't be counted in the infobox or the career statistics table. There you go SLBedit ( talk) should not be counted in the managerial statistics table! 188.222.245.203 ( talk)—Preceding undated comment added 20:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
188.222.245.203 ( talk · contribs) continues removing the matches before a consensus is reached here. SLBedit ( talk) 19:53, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
188.222.245.203 is now disrupting S.L. Benfica B. SLBedit ( talk) 19:58, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Let me ask you this: if Premier League International Cup (according to its article) is not a friendly competition, how can it be considered unofficial? SLBedit ( talk) 22:04, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi all. Consensus may have been reached on this before, but should football be referred to as football or soccer in South Africa. The article is called Soccer in South Africa but refers to it pretty much exclusively as 'football' throughout. There is no consistency between articles either, with the following articles all using different names for the sport in their lead sections: Ramahlwe Mphahlele, Bruce Bvuma, Nothando Vilakazi, Kgaogelo Sekgota. Any ideas? Thanks, Microwave Anarchist ( talk) 18:41, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
When should be "close" the national year range in the infobox? Only when the player retires, or after a (few) year(s) from his last cap? It would seem strange to me to have, for example, 2015– for a player who has only played one match in 2015. Nehme1499 ( talk) 23:16, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
This new website has just been created with detailed match and player statistics throughout the entire history of the club. I'm sure some of you will find it useful and let's hope more of these kind of sites pop up!-- Echetus Xe 14:17, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Is this fake or a real team? Govvy ( talk) 14:13, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Is it worth it's own article and category?-- Echetus Xe 14:12, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Tom Pope was replaced as captain by Leon Legge half way through last season and it wasn't reported anywhere, I just noticed it a while after the change. Bruno Ribeiro appointed four captains at the start of one season and said they would rotate the armband between them. An extreme example but the captaincy can literally change game to game without it being mentioned. Echetus Xe 15:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
I added an arrow next to Bayern Munich II in the infobox, without adding the text "(on loan)", subsequently shifting Bayern Munich above ( see dif). The reasoning is that Zirkzee played for both Bayern and Bayern II during the 2019-20 season. The player didn't move from Bayern to Bayern II on a permanent basis, neither did he sign a new contract. Legally speaking he is just contracted to Bayern who, at their discretion, may decide whether or not to send him to Bayern II (assuming that reserve teams work the way they do in Italy). @ Walter Görlitz reverted me twice, stating that the player is "not on the roster" and that "he plays for the second team and has appeared on the first team in trials" ( dif 1 and dif 2). Thoughts? Nehme1499 ( talk) 23:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Discussion
|
---|
The arrow is more logical for me since, like a loan player, the player still belongs to the club even if he plays for the reserve team. To list them separately would imply that he played for one rather than the other, whereas the arrow shows it is not necessarily chronological.
SFletcher06 (
talk)
13:08, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
( edit conflict) Legally speaking, a player who plays for Bayern II is contracted to Bayern Munich F.C., not to Bayern II. The reserve team can't in and of itself buy or sell players, all transactions go through Bayern. Conventionally speaking yes, the player may have just played for Bayern II and moved to some other team, without even setting foot in Bayern's matchday squad. But picture this: let's say that a player first plays for Bayern II during the 2018–19 season, then plays for Bayern's first team in 2019–20. Having 2018–2019 Bayern Munich II (31) (1) / 2019– Bayern Munich (1) (0) seems to imply that the player was purchased by Bayern from Bayern II, which makes no sense. He was always a Bayern player in 2018, he didn't become one in 2019. Also, what about any normal player who joined a team in 2018–19, and made his debut, say, in February 2019. We display him as having joined the team in 2018, not 2019. Even though he didn't play for his team until 2019, he was always legally a player for them in 2018. Nehme1499 ( talk) 13:14, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
My view - no arrow, no '(loan)' or similar, and no need for the first team to be listed as '0 (0)' if they never play.
Giant
Snowman
09:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
We seem to be far from consensus regarding this issue. Obviously I would personally prefer my solution, but I would much prefer consensus to go the other way than for there to not be any consensus at all.
Nehme1499 (
talk)
18:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
|
Solution: place teams in infobox based on chronological order of debut. No arrows for reserve teams, and the year ranges of the parent and reserve club can overlap. Nehme1499 ( talk) 17:00, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
While fixing the various Juventus U23 players following the discussion above (regarding Joshua Zirkzee), I have encountered a problem. What should we do with Luca Clemenza? Juventus sent him on loan to Ascoli and Padova, before sending him to Juventus U23. After one season, Juventus sent him on loan to Pescara. If I were to simply remove the arrow from Juventus U23, it would seem as if the reserve team sent him on loan to Pescara (which is incorrect). If I were to add Juventus between Juventus U23 and Pescara, it would seem as if Juventus sold him to Juventus U23 (which is also incorrect). THIS is the reason why I started the whole Zirkzee discussion (a lot of Juventus U23 players are like this, since Juve tends to loan a lot of their youth players around). Nehme1499 ( talk) 19:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Walter Görlitz, SportingFlyer, Davidlofgren1996, Kante4, Microwave Anarchist, S.A. Julio, REDMAN 2019, and Struway2: Thoughts? Nehme1499 ( talk) 18:14, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
This kind of goes back to the original issue, but isn't playing for a reserve team a bit like dual registration in non-league football, with the player free to play for both teams. How should this be approached? Articles like this, i.e. Jamie Cureton and Jacob Gardiner-Smith use an arrow but given the consensus reached on reserve teams, should there be an arrow there or not? Microwave Anarchist ( talk) 21:22, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
It seems this boils down to the question of what we're trying to represent in the infobox. We only list club matches played and goals scored in league play and official national team results, so why are we trying to report on chain of custody or ownership. If the player has only played with a U-23 or a second team and is transferred to another team, why is the ownership being implied by the senior team? The club holds the contract. In the case of MLS and other leagues, the league holds the contract, but we're not trying to reflect the contract but league matches played. Correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm right, what's the purpose of showing loans in the infobox? The edge cases listed here seem to argue against trying to represent that here. If the loans are complicated, it makes sense to simplify it for all players.
if, however, the infobox is to be a summary of all details of the player's career, then national cup, continental play and friendlies should be presented as well. KISS principle? Walter Görlitz ( talk) 23:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I noticed this edit in Christian Pulisic, where Joeykai undid an IP edit that changed Pulisic's position in the infobox from " Winger, attacking midfielder" to just "Forward" (the IP user linked to the disambiguation page rather than the football position page).
My first thought was, the IP edit wasn't entirely wrong. After all, the official club website lists him as just "Forward", and mention exactly where he lines up on the field in the main article body. But then, US Soccer lists him as "Midfielder". So at the risk of doing WP:OR, I checked out his positioning on FBREF, and he almost always lines up on the left of the forward 3 (in a 4-3-3) or front 4 (in a 4-2-3-1) for Chelsea, and all across the midfield 4 or 3 for the United States. Here are my takeaways:
Thoughts? Ytoyoda ( talk) 16:57, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
As a thought to add to this, if Winger (association football) were to get its own article, shouldn't there be one for Full-back (association football) or Full back (association football)? I think it's a pretty distinct position, and I'm wondering what we should put in the infobox for players who have specifically played at full-back their whole career? Currently I'm putting Left-back or Right-back, and I'd like to know if there is consensus for this. Davidlofgren1996 ( talk) 14:35, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Could an Admin please delete the redirects recently created by Clash Jester, such as The Boring One. Thanks, JMHamo ( talk) 16:32, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
I was wondering why are we adding abbreviations to inboxes in short name field? For example on Liverpool FC in the short name field it's LFC. I don't know why we are using the field this way, and there is no exact documentation at Template:Infobox football club for it's use. And who would in general talk say Lfc, as a short name for Liverpool, it's kinda a bit strange use of that info box element this way in my opinion, and besides, Liverpool is just Liverpool, they don't even have a short name! :/ Govvy ( talk) 11:33, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
An exercise involving rebrand and absorption of some non-notable local clubs has been announced for one of our notable French clubs Monts d'Or Azergues Foot. The name they've rebranded to is Grand Ouest Association Lyonnaise Football Club or, predictably, GOAL FC. Problematically, the club themselves are using GOAL FC and Goal FC interchangeably. Reliable sources (which, unsurprisingly, are a nightmare to search for) are also using these terms interchangeably. fr.wiki have gone for the full club name for their article. Which name should we use?
Personally, I'd go for the full name in this case, but looking for other opinions. Cheers, Gricehead ( talk) 08:34, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
As per this talk page, I would like to get consensus on whether or not Supercup finals are notable or not, and where to draw the line. Thanks for your input. -- Janisterzaj ( talk) 10:20, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
The linked discussion could benefit from input from editors familiar with WP:NFOOTY, WP:FPL or Scandinavia. Thanks! Usedtobecool ☎️ 20:19, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Been unsourced for years, and it's not really a comparison article is it? Just feels like performance statistics. Govvy ( talk) 09:40, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Does this guy actually pass NFooty or not? Govvy ( talk) 20:36, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 125 | ← | Archive 130 | Archive 131 | Archive 132 | Archive 133 | Archive 134 | Archive 135 |
Hi all,
I'm having a go at attacking this article but would like some input (/help if anyone wants). The current list is not overly informative and is partially missing information therefore I'm looking to redesign it from 1) to 2) but would welcome any suggestions. My main sticking point is do people want large club names or small club names? (I'm aware that I skipped to 7, just wanted to display a longer example).
1)
Name | Nationality | Goals [a] | Games [b] | Position | Seasons [c] | Clubs [d] | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Arthur Rowley | England | 433 | 619 | FW | 19 | 4 | [e] [1] |
Dixie Dean | England | 379 | 438 | FW | 16 | 3 | [f] [2] |
Jimmy Greaves | England | 357 | 516 | FW | 13 | 3 | [g] [3] |
2)
Rank | Name | Goals | Apps | Ratio | Years | Clubs | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Arthur Rowley | 434 | 619 | 0.70 | 1946–1965 | West Bromwich Albion (4), Fulham (27), Leicester City (251), Shrewsbury Town (152) | [4] |
2 | Dixie Dean | 379 | 438 | 0.87 | 1923–1939 | Tranmere Rovers (27), Everton (349), Notts County (3) | [h] [5] |
3 | Jimmy Greaves | 357 | 516 | 0.69 | 1957–1971 | Chelsea (124), Tottenham Hotspur (220), West Ham United (13) | [i] [6] |
7 | Harry Bedford | 326 | 485 | 0.67 | 1919–1934 | Nottingham Forest (8), Blackpool (112), Derby County (160), Newcastle United (17), Sunderland (2), Bradford Park Avenue (15), Chesterfield (12) | [2] |
References
Notes
war
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Thanks. Felixsv7 ( talk) 15:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello, fellow Wikipedian football enthusiasts. I hope you are all doing well and staying safe during these difficult and unprecedented times following the outbreak of Covid-19. I had a query over a recurring and important issue in Wikipedia footballer pages to which I and other users were hoping to find a solution; we have opened this discussion in the past, but although some of us voted, and I personally thought at the time that we had come to a consensus as it had been archived and a majority of users had voted in support of one argument, it in fact was never fully resolved, and a few users, including myself, are hoping that we can vote again and finally come to a consensus in order to avoid future arguments and inaccuracies on wikipedia football pages over similar matters. To summarise what I will discuss in the following paragraphs, for those of you who merely want to save time by skimming them or skipping over them to the final paragraph, the main issue is whether players should be credited with Supercup titles for which they were not called up, even if a reliable source credits them with this title (e.g. their club profile; I know that even reliable newspapers or commonly used sources such as Soccerway or Eurosport, although generally reliable, aren't always helpful when it comes to this, as there can be discrepancies or inaccuracies, and sometimes they can contradict one another). The main player who is the source of this debate is Lionel Messi, who is credited with the 2005 Supercopa de España title on his wikipedia page, and in his official Barcelona profile, even though he was not called up for the competition, although this discussion can be applied to a larger issue which is often encountered by editors of footballers' pages on wikipedia.
One of the problems is that in different countries there seem to be different regulations regarding which football players receive winners' medals in different competitions, and there doesn't seem to be much specific information on this, or a way to resolve this lack of facts on this matter. Obviously I know that in English football regulations are very strict on which players receive winners' medals for these titles, and they need to have been at least called up for the national, league, or Supercup final in order to receive a medal, or make at least five appearances in the league. Having said that, I'm not sure if the same rules apply for Spanish football, or any other country's football association, as I also know that in Italian football, things are slightly different, for example. Squad sizes have been limited to 25 players, and 30 medals are issued to a winning team for players and coaching staff – as shown here in an official source regarding regulations for the 2008 Supercoppa Italiana. I do think that when it comes domestic league and Cup titles – excluding England which has very strict regulations on this – that it is safe to say that a player can receive a winners' medal without appearing in the competition, as is shown by title assigning ceremonies (for example the ceremony for the 2017 Coppa Italia final, where Gianluigi Buffon is presented with a winners' medal without having appeared in the competition), but with Supercups, it's a rather different matter. I realise that one cannot confirm who exactly received a medal if they weren't called up for the match, but then again I found a picture of Simone Inzaghi with a 2009 Supercoppa Italiana medal round his neck even though he wasn't in the squad for the final (as can be seen in the picture in this article here from a reliable source like Sky Sport Italia, so situations like these can create problems, although I understand that using photographic evidence can count as original research). In this case, however, as mentioned in the opening paragraph, the main player that we are discussing is Lionel Messi, and whether or not he should be credited with the 2005 Spanish Supercup:
A while back, @ PeeJay2K3: and @ Aavelarx: had discussed with @ Paulinho28: and me on Messi's talk page (archived discussions are shown here and here) that they felt the 2005 Supercopa de España should be removed from his list of honours (while we had disagreed at the time, although at the moment, I think that I am of the opinion that it should be removed), as he was not called up for either leg of the final (see here and here). However, [1] this official Barcelona source mentions that he and Andrés Iniesta are the players with the most honours at the club and lists them as both having won that title; his official club profile also lists this title under the honours section. PeeJay2K3 has argued that he wasn't part of the club's "A" squad at the time, as according to this page and this report (I had commented that while this is an interesting point, I'm not sure that these would be considered reliable sources on wikipedia), he wore the number 30 at the start of the season and was re-registered with the number 19 later on (in a game against Celta Vigo on 20 December 2005, Messi was wearing #30 – see here – and then against Espanyol on 7 January 2006, he was wearing #19 – see here); he also added that players in Spanish clubs' "A" squads had to wear numbers between 1 and 25 at the time, which indicates that Messi was not part of the "A" squad at the start of the season, and that it would therefore be unfeasible to consider the player to have won an honour if they weren't part of the club's "A" squad at the time.
However, although I thought that he made a valid point and that these arguments seemed reasonable and insightful, I didn't have any reliable sources which confirmed this. I tried looking for information on Spanish articles or official La Liga BBVA sources regarding squad numbers in Spanish football and their correlation with whether players were registered with the A or B team and found no such information (also, to make matters more confusing, Damià Abella was on the bench for the first leg of the 2005 Supercopa de España, and he had the number 32 at the time). I do know that the Messi wiki article cites a reliable source from a biography on the player by Balagué] and mentions that: "On 24 June 2005, his 18th birthday, Messi signed his first contract as a senior team player. It made him a Barcelona player until 2010, two years less than his previous contract, but his buyout clause increased to €150 million." This for me is proof that he was a first-team player at the time (especially as the Supercopa took place in August that year, and he made no appearances for the B team that season, while making 17 La Liga appearances and 25 in all competitions despite injury). I also remember that later in August, after the Supercopa, Fabio Capello wanted to sign him on loan after seeing his impressive performance when he started against Juventus in the Joan Gamper Trophy (which Hunter's book on Barcelona, which is cited in Messi's wiki article, also corroborates); moreoever, the Barca Wiki article for the 2005–06 season also lists Messi as being promoted to the first team.
Barcelona have credited him with that title on their official club profile for Messi on their official website, even though he wasn't called up for that match, but there doesn't seem to be a way to confirm that he received a medal, and PeeJay2K3 has rightly suggested that there might be a degree of bias, even though the club's profile of the player is generally reliable, and there doesn't seem to be a better source that contradicts this, even though some sources are contradictory. Moreover, @ Anakimi: cited an interesting source from the LFP, the organizer of this cup, which seemed to recognise Messi to have won the title, which led me to believe that he should be credited with it at the time; however, his honours have since been deleted form his LFP profile, so this seems to clear that issue up. With all of this in mind, I wanted to see if we could actually arrive at a consensus over whether Messi should be credited with the 2005 Spanish Supercup or not, so that we can finally resolve this problem, and any future disputes over this, and so that we can use this as a guideline for whether other players should be credited with supercup titles in which they weren't at least called up. Should official club sources be taken into account? Or are sources such as Soccerway acceptable in the case that players did not appear in a particular competition or receive a call-up for a final? Or should they be removed altogether instead? I can see both sides of the argument, so I wanted input from more users.
I know that this is a lot of information and a lengthy discussion, but I hope that this post isn't too long or convoluted; please don't merely respond with "TLDR," as I've been trying to include as much information as possible and to relay events as accurately as possible, and have taken the time out to do this, so I'd appreciate some common courtesy as I also always try to be respectful on here. Please do feel free to ask for clarification if you have any questions, and to the users that I have tagged – @ Quite A Character:, @ Vaselineeeeeeee:, @ Kante4:, @ Koncorde:, @ Spike 'em:, @ Crowsus:, @ Jts1882:, @ Nintendonix:, @ Govvy:, @ Davefelmer:, @ Mohammadyunusp:, @ Mazewaxie:, @ Danieletorino2:, @ Sadsadas:, @ The Almightey Drill:, @ GiantSnowman: – please feel free to add any comments, information, or further clarification, so that hopefully we can vote on a mutual agreement, so that this issue can finally be resolved, regardless of our own personal preferences. Also, if we could please vote as soon as possible on whether Messi should be credited with the 2005 Supercopa de España (Yes) or not (No), and avoid a situation like the last one, where we didn't actually come to any agreement, that would be great.
Thank you! Best regards to everyone, and please do keep well and stay safe, Messirulez ( talk) 17:11, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Before answering below, I am copying my comments over from the Messi article talk page as points that I believe should be considered. /Start quote:
As there is an edit war going on here. A couple of points:
In conclusion; the answer is to err on the side of reliable sources even if it doesn't appear right. The second answer is to try and get clarification from Spanish FA or Barce directly as to what the criteria for inclusion was / is. May even be worth sending an email to a Catalan journalist who may be able to assist / verify the status by checking their archives.
/End quote. Koncorde ( talk) 17:20, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Please stay safe and keep well! Best regards, Messirulez ( talk) 21:39, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Please present your opinion regarding this edit. The Székely Land football team is not a national team, but a team representing the Székely Land in Romania. It is not affiliated with FIFA or UEFA. The Székely Land football team does not look like a national team, because it only represents the Székely minority in Romania. 82.78.61.178 ( talk) 07:09, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi, can temp protection be considered please. Not sure if he has actually left Celtic, will check shortly, but there's been a lot of slebbering halfwits dropping by over the last few days. Thanks. Crowsus ( talk) 21:08, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I am aware that the footballer and Homer Simpson's alter ego in Homer to the Max share the same name but anonymous IP addresses should not be using the joke Homer Simpson sung in the episode. It is just a coincidence that The Simpsons writers chose Homer Simpson's new name as Max Power in the episode and the footballer was born before that episode was made.
In this episode, Simpson was coincidentally named after a TV show he watched but stupidity from the character made the Dan Castellaneta character to change his name to Max Power.
As what Struway2 said to me, "Try not to let it get to you. It's only bored locked-down kids doing the electronic equivalent of chalking rude words on walls." This may be the work of bored people who want to get back to work/education out of their houses.
We had disruption yesterday but it was only reverted just now where I noticed the revert and saw the joke in the opening sentence in the difference between revisions view. That should not happen again given the player once feared he was named after Homer Simpson's alter ego. Iggy ( Swan) ( Contribs) 22:26, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
I've seen that Lnhbm ( talk · contribs) created several World Soccer XI templates by year, such as {{ 1963 World Soccer World XI}}, and he has systematically been adding them to multiple articles. The point is that no source confirms the existence of such awards or voting. Any thoughts? — Lesfer (t/ c/ @) 23:48, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi, just wanted to check on the preferred way of displaying the name of Sheffield Wednesday prior to 1929 (when the city name was added). I saw the existing article I was working on there ( George Robertson (footballer, born 1885)) had it piped to The Wednesday and, now in doubt, I changed it to that on one I created last week ( Robert McSkimming (footballer, born 1888)). I haven't looked at all of the contemporary players, but I know one of the most prominent at that time was ( Andrew Wilson (footballer, born 1880)), and when I checked his article, it had the Sheffield Wednesday name, which I haven't changed and came here instead. So for consistency, is it preferable to display the name in relevant articles as Sheffield Wednesday, The Wednesday, or Wednesday (I don't think 'the' was part of the official title either)? Thanks. Crowsus ( talk) 06:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Can we un do the move, there was no discussion for the change, and the editing there, I feel it's getting disruptive now, including the fact that flag-icons were re-added when we clearly have concerns over them. Govvy ( talk) 19:08, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Apologies, jumped the gun with the page move but the inclusion of further information relating to Premier League top scorers does warrant at least a discussion on the title. I did open a conversation about this subject on the Talk: page but to no response. As my pitch for amending the title: it would bring this page in line with the other articles of a similar nature, namely the La Liga and Bundesliga ones as well as allowing for the inclusion of additional tables such as the top scorer by club that was recently added. The 100+ aspect of the table needn't be mentioned in the title, only as a header for the actual table. Felixsv7 ( talk) 14:30, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
So the [ section] created by BundesBerti with top scorers by team was removed due to its mismatch with the article title therefore I'd like a discussion to change the title to List of Premier League top scorers to allow its inclusion and potentially expand the article with relevant information. Felixsv7 ( talk) 14:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I've stuck a move request on List of footballers with 100 or more Premier League goals. I'd appreciate your input! Felixsv7 ( talk) 10:59, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Just a heads up. I didn't realize the current flag of Wales was only adopted in 1959. So any flags for players playing before that year needs to use the old flag: The flag of South Africa was adopted in 1994, this is the previous one: Northern Ireland only separated from the team of Ireland in 1950. That looks to be a complicated and delicate issue. Do we have an agreement on not using the Ulster Banner even though it seemed to be used from 1953 to 1973? That would seem to be sensible to me.-- Echetus Xe 16:42, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
With Black Lives Matter such huge news maybe we could work on improving this article?-- Echetus Xe 16:22, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
I was just looking at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2019–20 Gheorghe Hagi Football Academy teams season and I was going to comment "Articles on individual seasons should only be created for articles in professional leagues as per......." and then I realised that I couldn't find anywhere where that is set down. Can anyone help? WP:SEASONS doesn't seem to be mention it as far as I can see. What am I overlooking......? -- ChrisTheDude ( talk) 10:55, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello team. I'm doing a sweep of play-off finals from 1987 to now in all three English divisions and one thing I'd like to note is the top scorer(s) for each team. Soccerway was helpful until it suddenly stopped including them around 2009. I'm sure Rothmans etc books have such information, I was wondering if any of our esteemed contributors could help me with this information? I'm currently stuck trying to source Mendonca as top scorer for Charlton in the 1997/98 season, so that's a start, but as I said, I'd like to do this work across all divisional play-offs for all years, so the "early" ones I sure could use some help with. Cheers. The Rambling Man ( Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:04, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Mattythewhite! Could you check something for me?
I've been reviewing List of English football first tier top scorers and seen that currently its list is not optimised therefore I was looking to bring it in line with Premier League Golden Boot using the format that I've provided below. In trying to find an accurate list of top scorers by league season I came across a discrepancy on List of English football champions where Jimmy Ross is said to have scored 24 goals in 1889-90 however I believe this includes FA Cup goals as it is stated to be 21 goals by Michael Slade - sourced below. I also wanted to see how many games each player had played in order to calculate the Goal:Game ratio but I'm not sure whether Rothman's provides this information. Could you help with either of these?
Season | Player | Club | Goals | Games | Rate | Ref(s) |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1888–89 | John Goodall | Preston North End§ | 21 | 21 | 1.00 | |
1889–90 | Jimmy Ross | Preston North End§ | 21 | 21 | 1.00 | [1] |
1890–91 | Jack Southworth | Blackburn Rovers | 26 | 22 | 1.18 | |
1891–92 | John Campbell | Sunderland§ | 32 | 26 | 1.23 |
References
Felixsv7 ( talk) 13:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Ali Alaaeddine was born in Kuwait, and played there until 2017. He was born to Lebanese parents, and never got Kuwaiti citizenship (as Kuwait doesn't allow dual-nationality). Would it make sense for the player to have the category Category:Lebanese expatriate sportspeople in Kuwait, despite him being born in the country? Nehme1499 ( talk) 22:56, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Unsure if I can put this here but I am looking for some people from this project to give me some assistance with editing the article Stockport County F.C.. I'm looking to make it a FA, and a lot of editing has been done to the article recently. I have put the article back into peer review and have included links to all of the older notes. There is a lot to read through but it gives you an idea of what has already been discussed/covered. Any advice would be appreciated. From advice I have been given I understand that the article needs to go through a GAR first before going back to FAC but if it can be made to FA standard then passing both shouldn't be a problem. Wna247 ( talk) 19:43, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
There appears to be an IP mass adding social media profiles for various footballers. I can roll these all back for now but I wanted others aware. Jay eyem ( talk) 04:30, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
please note that just linking me to WP:LINKSTOAVOID, which says "one should generally avoid providing external links to 10. Social networking sites (such as Myspace, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram) [etc.]" doesn't explain what the problem is in adding such links. It one shouldn't do it, not why not to do it.Struway2 already pointed the most important reason mentioned there: the content that players have on their social medias profiles tends to not be entirely relevant to their career which they are notable for. And there's also this bit – "clutter", "undue emphasis":
- However, Wikipedia does not provide a comprehensive web directory to every official website. Wikipedia does not attempt to document or provide links to every part of the subject's web presence or provide readers with a handy list of all social networking sites. Complete directories lead to clutter and to placing undue emphasis on what the subject says.
Govvy ( talk) 21:49, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
The article is at GA Talk:Phil Dwyer/GA1 but the nominator hasn't got the time to improve it to get it up to standard. Does anyone want to step in and complete the process?-- Echetus Xe 12:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Would someone from FOOTY mind taking a look at these articles? They might need a page move to 2020 Elite One and 2020 Nigeria Professional Football League respectively for naming consistency reasons since 2019 Elite One and 2019 Nigeria Professional Football League already exist. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Could somebody please create the kits from the 2000 AFC Asian Cup Final between Japan and Saudi Arabia? They look like this. WDM10 ( talk) 09:19, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
I moved to draft space for now, as I thought the article was good enough for there. However when I do that, should the redirect be deleted? Govvy ( talk) 13:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Some editors have created two separate pages: Kerala Blasters Youth and Academy and Kerala Blasters FC Reserves. I do not think they are notable enough to be separate pages, considering there is no notable academy either. Coderzombie ( talk) 15:46, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Requesting admins to change Kerala Blasters FC Reserves into Reserves and Academy. Shahoodu ( talk) 16:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello good folks. I sincerely apologise in advance, but could you all let know if fchd.info is still considered WP:RS? I intend to use some of its great coverage but I anticipate that someone looking at it for the first time will be like "WOAH, .txt files!" The Rambling Man ( Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:29, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I wanted to ask, was Grantham Town also known as Grantham Rovers in the late 1890s? I just edited Tom Morris and it says he played for Grantham Rovers. Govvy ( talk) 16:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello, everyone. I have come here to know an important thing related to information on footballer's Infobox. Which source or website is considered as the most verified and reliable one for information of a footballer (such as appearence and goals count)? I will be obliged if you guys help me by answering this question and providing the most reliable source. Thanks! – Waraka Saki ( talk) 06:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
One more thing, I want to know. For a specific information if different websites provide different statistics, then which one should I take? For better understanding, I'm giving few example in a table below (all information are without play-off matches, as on Wikipedia only league matches count):
Section | Wikipedia | Soccerway | Soccerbase | BDFutbol | Transfermarkt (with detail information about every mactches) | ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Apps | goals | Apps | goals | Apps | goals | Apps | goals | Apps | goals | ||
Rodri's Villarreal CF B | 39 | 1 | 41 | 2 | no information | 39 | 1 | 40 | 1 | ||
Dennis Praet's Anderlecht | 139 | 20 | 139 | 20 | 106 | 14 | no information | 104 | 14 | ||
Nacer Chadli's Twente | 84 | 25 | 84 | 25 | 77 | 23 | 78 | 23 | 78 | 23 |
Thanks a lot Robby.is.on, Hack, ChrisTheDude and Nehme1499 for helping me. Have a good day. - Waraka Saki ( talk) 10:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Ortizesp ( talk · contribs) works hard creating many-and-more footballer articles when a player plays their first eligible game, per WP:NFOOTY. However, he often writes the prose under the heading Professional career without any evidence that the player has signed a professional contract, and states that they made their professional debut in the game in question. On many occasions, in France at least, the player is playing on an amateur contract for the second team when he makes his senior debut. Often the player does go on to sign a professional contract, and these (in France) are the ones I find when sources become available - eg Mattéo Ahlinvi, Faiz Mattoir, Alexis Beka Beka from the last few weeks. These are the easy ones to find. There are many young players who don't go on to sign a professional contract, but move into lower leagues as amateur players, and finding these articles to correct them is hard.
Strictly speaking, calling a footballer a professional when they have never signed a professional contract is a BLP violation (in my view), and it's these I want to be able to track down and correct, rather than waiting for a (potential) news article regarding a professional contract signing.
I made a request on Ortizesp's talk in March 2019 asking that they note this and take care to use the correct terminology in future, however all three articles listed as exampled above were created after that date.
So I'm looking for help with two things, please:
Thanks, Gricehead ( talk) 10:30, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Liverpool has already become a champion, but some players have not played 5 matches in the championship. If they play the remaining matches before this threshold, will they be awarded a medal? David Cok 121 ( talk) 22:05, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
In Lebanon, there are two "league cups" (other than the league, domestic cup, and super cup): the Lebanese Elite Cup (for the top 6 teams of the previous league season), and the Lebanese Challenge Cup (bottom 6). For this year only, as the past league season was abandoned after only 3 games, the federation decided to do a preparatory tournament during the summer, which acts as a qualifier to either the Elite or Challenge Cup based on the club's position. The tournament isn't really that long (3 groups of 4 teams, one leg), and will not be repeated in the future: does it warrant its own article? Or should it be copied and pasted in both the 2020 Lebanese Elite Cup and 2020 Lebanese Challenge Cup articles? Nehme1499 ( talk) 09:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
So, with confirmation of the Premier League trophy finally going Liverpool's way possibly as soon as later this evening, there's going to be a deluge of people adding the title to players' honours sections. What are we thinking we should do: keep them omitted until the end of the season once the medals are actually awarded, or allow them to be added, with appropriate sourcing, to players who have reached the five appearance threshold? Thanks, Mattythewhite ( talk) 20:12, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
For example @ Mattythewhite: Caoimhín Kelleher has not played once for Liverpool in the League this season but has the honour added. I am sure there are many other examples. JMHamo ( talk) 09:14, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
While we're on the topic, I am thinking it would make sense for List of Premier League winning players to only be updated after the season has finished, once we know *definitively* what Liverpool's medal haul is and to give the Prem time to update their player profiles with the titles. I've already reverted the page a few times today so I need to keep my fingers away from it! Mattythewhite ( talk) 11:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Two IPs started "fighting" in the Italy national football team article over whether or not certain matches should be included in the upcoming fixtures. To solve the issue, I removed all the "recent results", replacing the section with a "Records and fixtures" section (see FA articles such as Belgium national football team). The logic being that recent results violate WP:RECENT. Both IPs reverted my edits, putting their own respective version of the section. How should we deal with this? Nehme1499 ( talk) 11:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
New UEFA calendar has been confirmed for each league ( A, B, C and D). Each group for each league has to be updated.-- 79.43.108.133 ( talk) 18:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Stage | Round | Dates |
---|---|---|
League phase | Matchday 1 | 3–5 September 2020 |
Matchday 2 | 6–8 September 2020 | |
Matchday 3 | 10–11 October 2020 | |
Matchday 4 | 13–14 October 2020 | |
Matchday 5 | 14–15 November 2020 | |
Matchday 6 | 17–18 November 2020 |
Ok, done by S.A. Julio.-- 79.43.108.133 ( talk) 17:03, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
I wanted to find a source when Man U signed him, a 2001 source, however I wasn't having much luck in my google searches and strangely the Man U season article doesn't mention signing him. Anyone able to help? Govvy ( talk) 13:27, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
This is likely to be reviewed soon. An opinion from members of this project would be valuable, whether it is accepted or declined. The article name is just a decent shot at naming it. That can change easily enough,. Fiddle Faddle 19:40, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi all I got a note on my talk page from TheRealGutripper. He has been adding a Most points in a single season table to the Premier League records and statistics page. And PeeJay2K3 has been removing them saying that it is not needed. I would like to know what others would think about adding this table to the page. Refs can be found for it if nessercery. REDMAN 2019 ( talk) 11:20, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Since when are we doing woman's football season pages for clubs? I've just come across;
Govvy ( talk) 11:18, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
How do you join WikiProject Football? AngusMacintosh ( talk) 15:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Ok thanks AngusMacintosh ( talk) 20:40, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
On this new article in the info box there is Romania Olympic, is that right? Or should it be written a different way? Govvy ( talk) 16:32, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
I came across Mauro Núñez Bastos going through the project's list of unreferenced BLPs and was wondering if anyone could provide any insight as to how he might pass WP:NFOOTY. Hack ( talk) 08:21, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi, currently we have an AfD in progress regarding the "merger" of two teams in India, ATK and Mohun Bagan. This AfD has been around since 17 June 2020 but has slowed down in discussion a lot recently. I just wanted to bring it up so to encourage more participation on a topic that has not reached a resolution yet.
Here is some sourced context for those interested: Prior to 2020, India had two top tier football leagues, the Indian Super League and the I-League. ATK plays in the Indian Super League and Mohun Bagan play in the I-League. However, on 16 January 2020 it was announced that RPSG Group, the owners of ATK, would purchase an 80% stake in Mohun Bagan Football Club, with "Mohun Bagan Football Club (India) Private Limited" owning the remaining 20%. The only information we were given at the time were that the clubs would "merge", include the brand names of ATK and Mohun Bagan, and also play in the Indian Super League for 2020–21. We did not receive confirmation though on the official name of the club, any branding whatsoever, how the two squads would be merged, and whether the history of ATK and/or Mohun Bagan will be incorporated into this "new" club. It was reported that the "merged club" would come into being on 1 June 2020. Obviously, that didn't happen due to the current Covid-19 pandemic. On 8 June 2020, it was reported by Goal.com that the name ATK Mohun Bagan was registered with the Government of India’s Ministry of Corporate Affairs. However, to me at least, that is clickbait since the article doesn't actually discuss the team name but rather the new name of the corporation that will own the club "ATK Mohun Bagan Private Limited". As of today, both the Indian Super League and I-League social media accounts and official pages refer to the clubs as separate entities. Both ATK and Mohun Bagan still run their own social media channels and pages too. -- ArsenalFan700 ( talk) 16:53, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Take Robin Olsen as an example. His loan contract from Roma to Cagliari has expired (he won't complete the season). However, the Italian transfer window doesn't open until 1 September. Therefore, his transfer back to Roma can't be fully registered until then. So, since he currently can't play for either clubs, should the article say that "he plays for Cagliari on loan from Roma" or that "he plays for Roma"? // Mattias321 (talk) 16:18, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi, in this article an editor removed some external links with WP:ELNO item #1 as reason: "'the site should not merely repeat information that is already or should be in the article'. A heap of near-identical links to databases is no good".
Is it consensus now that we should remove these links? I wonder because good articles like Thierry Henry, Bert Trautmann, Lionel Messi, Thomas Müller etc. contain such links. -- Jaellee ( talk) 20:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Just to clarify, only one of the the external links in question was already used inline in the article, the two others weren't. So the two others shouldn't have been deleted without using them as inline references first as I understand this agreement. -- Jaellee ( talk) 17:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Can somebody please tidy up the WP:NPOV/ WP:SYNTH violations of @ Barton Dave: at Roberto Firmino? I'm about to reach 3RR - he has broken it. I am also about to explode with frustration. Giant Snowman 21:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Sadly, Wigan Athletic F.C. has gone into administration [1]. There is bound to be high traffic on this article and Wigan related articles, extra eyes are appreciated. JMHamo ( talk) 11:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
References
I've got Danel Sinani on my watchlist, and he has now been listed as a Norwich player. Whilst he was intended to sign on 1 July, I thought the transfer window wasn't open until after this season ends? So he'd still be a Dudelange player. Or am I wrong about that? FYI can't find any sources newer than April about it. Joseph 2302 ( talk) 10:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Just curious before the MLS is Back Tournament starts, how we will deal with appearances in this in the Infobox and Career Statistics tables. Essentially this is a "World Cup format style tournament with a group stage and knockout rounds" However, group stage matches will count towards the overall league table, while knockout rounds will not. So I assume that we will include the group stage matches in the Infobox, but not the knockout round matches. For the stats table, I guess we could do the same and throw the Knockout round matches in a "Cup" or "Other" column. However, I wanted to see if there was a consensus already established and get other perspectives before it starts rather than to rely on my own assumptions. I didn't see any mention of this in the talk page, so don't know if there is already an idea in place, since this is a very unconventional event. I can't recall any other hybrid league/cup tournaments RedPatchBoys ( talk) 21:31, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
This is a draft about a Belarusian women's soccer/football team that I put a lot of time into and is in the women's top division but does not have an article yet. 2601:643:8101:64E1:C5A6:3BBC:2358:658B ( talk) 23:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
I've just noticed that these pages has been created. Although they are likely to be in next season's Premier League, their current total of 45 points is too small for mathematical safety. Just one more win will do for them but these pages may have been created relatively too early. Iggy ( Swan) ( Contribs) 17:07, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Usually seasons end on 30 June this year. But this one won't for these clubs in the divisions for reasons we already know. I've been going around a few random club season articles, all says "The season covers the period from 1 July 2019 to 30 July 2020.". That would be factually incorrect due to scheduled matches in July. Iggy ( Swan) ( Contribs) 20:00, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
I was just curious, are we going to put the 1 July released players in this extended season or the next season pages? Govvy ( talk) 18:25, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I always let them stay on both articles at first. Don't want to get into an edit war with Coventry guy. And yeah on the off chance that someone wants to know what's new about the current season then it might be useful for them. But once the new season has got going then I remove them, because they shouldn't be there. Echetus Xe 11:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
I've always seen them in the 'next season' pages, as the season pages are often defined as covering the period "from 1 July 20xx to 30 June 20xx", thus the players released on 1 July should be included on this page, and not the previous season. Also, as mentioned above, this is more likely to affect the 'next' season, as most players released will find new clubs during this season, and this information can be added via efns, as seen here. Davidlofgren1996 ( talk) 12:18, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Has this guy actually played for Iran? I can't seem to be able to verify the sources or find anything. Govvy ( talk) 12:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
It seems like Comparisons between the North American Soccer League and Major League Soccer was created recently. What are the opinions of editors here? Walter Görlitz ( talk) 01:47, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
There's an ongoing edit war at FC Cincinnati changing the hatnote from "This article is about the Major League Soccer franchise. For the United Soccer League franchise, see FC Cincinnati (2016–18)." to "This article is about the Major League Soccer team. For the United Soccer League team, see FC Cincinnati (2016–18)." @ Walter Görlitz: has reverted it a several times. The IP editor has a point that there's an inconsistency, but there was also an argument a couple years back regarding the distinction between MLS franchises and normal soccer clubs - a team doesn't actually get "promoted" to MLS, a new franchise is created and the branding is transferred. I personally think "franchise" is a better distinction in the hatnotes for clubs like Portland, Orlando, Cincinnati, but I wanted to bring it here for a discussion considering the ongoing edit war. SportingFlyer T· C 04:07, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi all, just to make you aware of a potential WP:COI with @ A player of Burnley Football club:, who claims to be a Burnley F.C. player. Thanks, Mattythewhite ( talk) 09:58, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
This user page is currently suspicious as to who I think that could possibly be.
The text shows that he is a certain number of years younger than this player and the first section claims "I have so far managed to score a few goals for my team".
By using this player's date of birth with reliable sources confirming it, I have narrowed it down to five possible players who were all born in the same year. Then by using one of the opening sentences, I have narrowed it down to three players as two of them (both born in June of that year) have scored just once. The user also said he is a fan of Burnley (might be his home club?). If that's the case, there's only one possible person who that could be.
See if other users can investigate like User:Daemonickangaroo2018 who has undid a few of the user's contributions and User:Joseph2302 who has advised the user to remove the career section. User:ChrisTheDude may also assist. Iggy ( Swan) ( Contribs) 11:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
I think that it is highly unlikely that this user has any connection with Burnley FC, but is more likely a glory hunter from India, judging by the style of English that he uses. A quick look at his edit history shows that many of his edits are done early in the morning UK time. How many Premier League footballers are up and editing Wikipedia at that time? Also is it just a coincidence that the actor with the “funny name” that he met in a restaurant has the same initials as the Burnley player allegedly “outed” above. Daemonickangaroo2018 ( talk) 12:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
User has been blocked now. JMHamo ( talk) 12:37, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
These articles are subject to being edited with unsourced content relating to the manager. It relates to the possibility that he is no longer the manager of Bristol City but I should think he is until sources are added. Iggy ( Swan) ( Contribs) 17:42, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Has just been announced by the BBC [1] Davidlofgren1996 ( talk) 17:50, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
References
I am confused, but is not a breach of WP:COPYVIO?? Govvy ( talk) 10:52, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Also, this feels like the worse case of WP:OR, this comparison article? Surely this can't be suitable for wikipedia? Govvy ( talk) 10:54, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
I didn't feel this article is right for wikipedia and I put it forward for AfD to test the waters and see what others think. Govvy ( talk) 11:32, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
I've just come across this article at WP:RFPP and there seems to be an ongoing edit war surrounding whether Indian Super League is the top-tier of Indian football. I would appreciate some extra eyes on it if anyone has some insight. Woody ( talk) 14:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Is it really two top tier leagues just because I-League has an AFC spot? Like ArsenalFan700 said, AFC has deemed ISL as the top league and just for the transition, I-League is given AFC spot, that's my interpretation. Coderzombie ( talk) 09:11, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Is it possible to "shift" the starting position in a league table to something other than 1? For example, in the 2020–21 Lebanese Premier League there will be Top 6 and Bottom 6 competitions. It would be ideal for the Bottom 6 rankings to start from 7, rather than from 1. Nehme1499 ( talk) 11:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Morning all. I saw that Transfermarkt is considered unreliable on english wiki and wondered why. Looked for some old chat (2012) and read that the only reason why is that the site is users-made, reason that is false. Wikipedia and, for instance, Discogs for music are users-made because everyone could modify data and only after there is a verification. Transfermarkt, on the contrary, has his verification by the internal team before the data are modified: this is called "four eyes control", nothing can be published without a verification. It is a German site, much organised. I know that for some countries, data are exact but poor (Brazil, Argentina and even UK), but I know for sure that concerning Italia and Deutschland the data are perfect and complete, even for youth tournements. The same for national teams competitions. Hence, could the community consider, after eight years, to admit this site among the reliable ones? Thanks.-- Tre di tre ( talk) 08:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi, could someone help at Timo Werner, where first-team appearances and goals are constantly being from the infobox and career stats table? Mattythewhite ( talk) 15:46, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
I see that Dimspace just added the Premier League title back to Andy Lonergan's honours, when @ ChrisTheDude: removed it as Lonergan did not make a single appearance for Liverpool. Can this be reviewed? JMHamo ( talk) 09:06, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
I was wondering do we really need this split off or not? As 2011 FIFA Women's World Cup seems to contain most of the stats already. Govvy ( talk) 18:30, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Since when matches of Premier League International Cup are considered not official? 188.222.245.203 ( talk · contribs) is removing them from statistics and the source supporting the information at Bruno Lage.
First, IP made an accusation: falsified and made up statistics for Benfica B.
Then IP wrote: The tournament mentioned in the other statistics for Benfica B are not counted as official matches.; Premier League International Cup doesn't appear on ForaDeJogo's website! Therefore are not counted as official matches played as ForaDeJogo only shows league matches, as does the football database website!; removed unnecessary source material as the other two sources do not show the Premier League International Cup; NOT SHOWN IN OTHER TWO SOURCES! Therefore the sources do not back up the source from Zerozero.
Zerozero says Premier League International Cup matches are official. SLBedit ( talk) 22:13, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
And now IP is re-adding flags to managerial statistics infobox. SLBedit ( talk) 22:30, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
It shouldn't be counted in the infobox or the career statistics table. There you go SLBedit ( talk) should not be counted in the managerial statistics table! 188.222.245.203 ( talk)—Preceding undated comment added 20:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
188.222.245.203 ( talk · contribs) continues removing the matches before a consensus is reached here. SLBedit ( talk) 19:53, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
188.222.245.203 is now disrupting S.L. Benfica B. SLBedit ( talk) 19:58, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Let me ask you this: if Premier League International Cup (according to its article) is not a friendly competition, how can it be considered unofficial? SLBedit ( talk) 22:04, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi all. Consensus may have been reached on this before, but should football be referred to as football or soccer in South Africa. The article is called Soccer in South Africa but refers to it pretty much exclusively as 'football' throughout. There is no consistency between articles either, with the following articles all using different names for the sport in their lead sections: Ramahlwe Mphahlele, Bruce Bvuma, Nothando Vilakazi, Kgaogelo Sekgota. Any ideas? Thanks, Microwave Anarchist ( talk) 18:41, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
When should be "close" the national year range in the infobox? Only when the player retires, or after a (few) year(s) from his last cap? It would seem strange to me to have, for example, 2015– for a player who has only played one match in 2015. Nehme1499 ( talk) 23:16, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
This new website has just been created with detailed match and player statistics throughout the entire history of the club. I'm sure some of you will find it useful and let's hope more of these kind of sites pop up!-- Echetus Xe 14:17, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Is this fake or a real team? Govvy ( talk) 14:13, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Is it worth it's own article and category?-- Echetus Xe 14:12, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Tom Pope was replaced as captain by Leon Legge half way through last season and it wasn't reported anywhere, I just noticed it a while after the change. Bruno Ribeiro appointed four captains at the start of one season and said they would rotate the armband between them. An extreme example but the captaincy can literally change game to game without it being mentioned. Echetus Xe 15:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
I added an arrow next to Bayern Munich II in the infobox, without adding the text "(on loan)", subsequently shifting Bayern Munich above ( see dif). The reasoning is that Zirkzee played for both Bayern and Bayern II during the 2019-20 season. The player didn't move from Bayern to Bayern II on a permanent basis, neither did he sign a new contract. Legally speaking he is just contracted to Bayern who, at their discretion, may decide whether or not to send him to Bayern II (assuming that reserve teams work the way they do in Italy). @ Walter Görlitz reverted me twice, stating that the player is "not on the roster" and that "he plays for the second team and has appeared on the first team in trials" ( dif 1 and dif 2). Thoughts? Nehme1499 ( talk) 23:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Discussion
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The arrow is more logical for me since, like a loan player, the player still belongs to the club even if he plays for the reserve team. To list them separately would imply that he played for one rather than the other, whereas the arrow shows it is not necessarily chronological.
SFletcher06 (
talk)
13:08, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
( edit conflict) Legally speaking, a player who plays for Bayern II is contracted to Bayern Munich F.C., not to Bayern II. The reserve team can't in and of itself buy or sell players, all transactions go through Bayern. Conventionally speaking yes, the player may have just played for Bayern II and moved to some other team, without even setting foot in Bayern's matchday squad. But picture this: let's say that a player first plays for Bayern II during the 2018–19 season, then plays for Bayern's first team in 2019–20. Having 2018–2019 Bayern Munich II (31) (1) / 2019– Bayern Munich (1) (0) seems to imply that the player was purchased by Bayern from Bayern II, which makes no sense. He was always a Bayern player in 2018, he didn't become one in 2019. Also, what about any normal player who joined a team in 2018–19, and made his debut, say, in February 2019. We display him as having joined the team in 2018, not 2019. Even though he didn't play for his team until 2019, he was always legally a player for them in 2018. Nehme1499 ( talk) 13:14, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
My view - no arrow, no '(loan)' or similar, and no need for the first team to be listed as '0 (0)' if they never play.
Giant
Snowman
09:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
We seem to be far from consensus regarding this issue. Obviously I would personally prefer my solution, but I would much prefer consensus to go the other way than for there to not be any consensus at all.
Nehme1499 (
talk)
18:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
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Solution: place teams in infobox based on chronological order of debut. No arrows for reserve teams, and the year ranges of the parent and reserve club can overlap. Nehme1499 ( talk) 17:00, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
While fixing the various Juventus U23 players following the discussion above (regarding Joshua Zirkzee), I have encountered a problem. What should we do with Luca Clemenza? Juventus sent him on loan to Ascoli and Padova, before sending him to Juventus U23. After one season, Juventus sent him on loan to Pescara. If I were to simply remove the arrow from Juventus U23, it would seem as if the reserve team sent him on loan to Pescara (which is incorrect). If I were to add Juventus between Juventus U23 and Pescara, it would seem as if Juventus sold him to Juventus U23 (which is also incorrect). THIS is the reason why I started the whole Zirkzee discussion (a lot of Juventus U23 players are like this, since Juve tends to loan a lot of their youth players around). Nehme1499 ( talk) 19:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Walter Görlitz, SportingFlyer, Davidlofgren1996, Kante4, Microwave Anarchist, S.A. Julio, REDMAN 2019, and Struway2: Thoughts? Nehme1499 ( talk) 18:14, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
This kind of goes back to the original issue, but isn't playing for a reserve team a bit like dual registration in non-league football, with the player free to play for both teams. How should this be approached? Articles like this, i.e. Jamie Cureton and Jacob Gardiner-Smith use an arrow but given the consensus reached on reserve teams, should there be an arrow there or not? Microwave Anarchist ( talk) 21:22, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
It seems this boils down to the question of what we're trying to represent in the infobox. We only list club matches played and goals scored in league play and official national team results, so why are we trying to report on chain of custody or ownership. If the player has only played with a U-23 or a second team and is transferred to another team, why is the ownership being implied by the senior team? The club holds the contract. In the case of MLS and other leagues, the league holds the contract, but we're not trying to reflect the contract but league matches played. Correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm right, what's the purpose of showing loans in the infobox? The edge cases listed here seem to argue against trying to represent that here. If the loans are complicated, it makes sense to simplify it for all players.
if, however, the infobox is to be a summary of all details of the player's career, then national cup, continental play and friendlies should be presented as well. KISS principle? Walter Görlitz ( talk) 23:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I noticed this edit in Christian Pulisic, where Joeykai undid an IP edit that changed Pulisic's position in the infobox from " Winger, attacking midfielder" to just "Forward" (the IP user linked to the disambiguation page rather than the football position page).
My first thought was, the IP edit wasn't entirely wrong. After all, the official club website lists him as just "Forward", and mention exactly where he lines up on the field in the main article body. But then, US Soccer lists him as "Midfielder". So at the risk of doing WP:OR, I checked out his positioning on FBREF, and he almost always lines up on the left of the forward 3 (in a 4-3-3) or front 4 (in a 4-2-3-1) for Chelsea, and all across the midfield 4 or 3 for the United States. Here are my takeaways:
Thoughts? Ytoyoda ( talk) 16:57, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
As a thought to add to this, if Winger (association football) were to get its own article, shouldn't there be one for Full-back (association football) or Full back (association football)? I think it's a pretty distinct position, and I'm wondering what we should put in the infobox for players who have specifically played at full-back their whole career? Currently I'm putting Left-back or Right-back, and I'd like to know if there is consensus for this. Davidlofgren1996 ( talk) 14:35, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Could an Admin please delete the redirects recently created by Clash Jester, such as The Boring One. Thanks, JMHamo ( talk) 16:32, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
I was wondering why are we adding abbreviations to inboxes in short name field? For example on Liverpool FC in the short name field it's LFC. I don't know why we are using the field this way, and there is no exact documentation at Template:Infobox football club for it's use. And who would in general talk say Lfc, as a short name for Liverpool, it's kinda a bit strange use of that info box element this way in my opinion, and besides, Liverpool is just Liverpool, they don't even have a short name! :/ Govvy ( talk) 11:33, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
An exercise involving rebrand and absorption of some non-notable local clubs has been announced for one of our notable French clubs Monts d'Or Azergues Foot. The name they've rebranded to is Grand Ouest Association Lyonnaise Football Club or, predictably, GOAL FC. Problematically, the club themselves are using GOAL FC and Goal FC interchangeably. Reliable sources (which, unsurprisingly, are a nightmare to search for) are also using these terms interchangeably. fr.wiki have gone for the full club name for their article. Which name should we use?
Personally, I'd go for the full name in this case, but looking for other opinions. Cheers, Gricehead ( talk) 08:34, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
As per this talk page, I would like to get consensus on whether or not Supercup finals are notable or not, and where to draw the line. Thanks for your input. -- Janisterzaj ( talk) 10:20, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
The linked discussion could benefit from input from editors familiar with WP:NFOOTY, WP:FPL or Scandinavia. Thanks! Usedtobecool ☎️ 20:19, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Been unsourced for years, and it's not really a comparison article is it? Just feels like performance statistics. Govvy ( talk) 09:40, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Does this guy actually pass NFooty or not? Govvy ( talk) 20:36, 12 July 2020 (UTC)