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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
OK, it took almost a month, but I'm finally done with everything I wanted to do (as far as I can figure) with these lists, and I'm taking a break for now. Unless something goes wrong, I plan to move these lists into mainspace some time tonight (otherwise I can do it tomorrow morning) so that whoever would like to can add to them and edit them. :)
As far as redirecting goes, rather than mass-redirect a bunch of articles, I will place merge tags on everything that I feel is a good merge candidate for these lists soon after I make the list articles live. I will be primarily targetting smaller stubby articles, though I may select some larger ones on a case-by-case basis. Naturally, I will be skipping iconic D&D stuff (beholder, illithid, dragons, etc), as well as anything which already got a solid Keep at AFD (slaad, death knight), and anything else that is particularly well-developed. I'll give people 5 days to dispute it, and anything uncontrovertial will be unceremoniously merged and redirected. ;) Anything that gets discussion on the talk page will be allowed to take whatever course it may, since people will have different feelings about different subjects.
If you want to nominate anything monster-related for a merge, please let me get first crack - I think I've earned it with all the work I put into these tables so far. :) I should be done with that by the end of April at the latest, and then go for it. Obviously, anything that has already been redirected because of a previous AFD should be re-redirected to the lists once they are up. BOZ ( talk) 18:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
It is done - I am tired now. :) I've redirected some of the AFD'ed articles into the lists, in case anything useful therein can be gleaned. I've started merge discussions on a dozen or so monster articles. Even that is time consuming, so we'll work on the 1974-1977 stuff first, and then move on from there. Oy, thanks for your patience everyone. :) BOZ ( talk) 03:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi.:) I seem to recall that some members have back issues of Dragon, and was wondering if anyone can check issue 224 for me. Apprantly Harold Johnson wrote something called "First Quest" where he describes how he came up with the idea of the Kender. My source is The Kencyclopedia, but I'd rather confirm it with the original source, and, if possible, confirm the usual referencing details (page, author, title, etc). - Bilby ( talk) 13:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I brought this up at Jéské Couriano's talk page and I might as well extend it here as well. Conflicts with Gavin continue basically unabated, as they have for over six months now, and I'd like to see what can be done about that other than letting him have free reign or waiting until he gives up and goes away. :) Jeske said he would willingly do mediation with Gavin. What about the rest of you? You can be involved directly with the mediation, or just support the mediation effort, or oppose the motion (and state why) or just be neutral and watch how it goes. :) BOZ ( talk) 20:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll be glad to take charge on this one, but if someone with a better head on their shoulders would like to step in, I'd be all too happy to let them do it. :) BOZ ( talk) 21:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Is there a page that describes the dispute or whatever? - Peregrine Fisher ( talk) 03:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
What does mediation involve? What outcomes are possible? Xxanthippe ( talk) 06:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC).
Despite the initial discussions here, it might be fruitless as it appears Gavin may not be interested in mediation. See Jéské's talk page. Measure any response you make carefully. (Indeed, the same goes for any interactions you have with other editors.) Mediation only works if all parties involved agree to it. --Craw-daddy | T | 08:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
If Gavin is not interested in mediation, perhaps we should pursue an RfC again. I will not deny that his style has led to cleanup on a number of articles; however, his attitude and his insistence on remaining completely ignorant about the game industry require serious adjustment if he is to work with rather than against the other editors here. I noted above that he has been spamming tags blindly; by way of evidence I submit:
Snuppy 11:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It may be worth pointing out Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2#Fait accompli here: "Editors who are collectively or individually making large numbers of similar edits, and are apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed, are expected to attempt to resolve the dispute through discussion. It is inappropriate to use repetition or volume in order to present opponents with a fait accompli or to exhaust their ability to contest the change" That would seem to describe Gavin's behaviour perfectly. Percy Snoodle ( talk) 12:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, first of all, anyone participating in any way should familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. In reading that page, a request for mediation must be about content disputes, not conduct disputes. While I agree we have plenty of each, we must do our best to sort out the conduct disputes ("he called me a name!" "he said I was wrong!" "he kicked dirt in my eye!") from the content disputes ("the wrong template was added/removed", "this is a reliable source", etc). I don't think it's unfair to mention that conduct issues have arisen because of the content disputes, but for the RfM process we must focus on how the content is debated first.
We must provide evidence of prior dispute resolution attempts. I think in this case it would be fair to include the RfC on Gavin, as that explicitly discusses content disputes that editors have had with him. Other good things to include would be article talk pages and user talk pages where users have attempted in good faith to negotiate with Gavin (and vice versa) regarding the content of various articles. Of particular note should be any case where a RfC was filed on a particular article, or a third opinion request. Note that if you have not already done so on a current case, it should be OK for you to attempt that now, and the results of which can be added to the RfM case. The way I see it, the more attempts at dispute resolution we can display, so much the better.
On a going-forward basis, I'm going to have to ask that everyone who put their name in the "Support" column above would show the same courtesy, respect, and civility to Gavin that you would expect from him. If you truly do want this mediation to succeed, you will do so; if you do not do so, it is more likely that this will fail.
This is not an attempt to "get Gavin in trouble", because that is not what mediation is for. In fact, the mediation committee cannot get anyone into trouble unless they attempt to abuse the process somehow. It is a voluntary process that all parties will agree on in their approach to further editing. It is not binding, but it does reflect poorly on any parties who agrees to the resolution and then acts contrary to the agreement. It is intended to help provide a reasonable compromise on the issues at hand.
It is unnecessary for our initial request to outline the full history of the dispute until the mediation has been accepted and a mediator has taken the case. Thus, we have some time to think and review on how we are to handle this process. It is not a chance to pull up pages and pages of edits to look for to show diffs as evidence of wrongdoing at this time; I don't know if that is even part of the mediation process. The process is described as "slow", so taking our time is preferable here.
What we do need to find is any article which was disputed and where mediation of some sort would be or would have been helpful. This could be as many as it needs to be, and again I say the more the better. We must clearly identify in each case which issues needed to be mediated (Ex: not just "edit war over templates" but "edit war over templates which I believe were applied incorrectly and I explained why I felt this way on the talk page") by providing a summary.
I do not know if all disputes presented must involve myself and/or Jeske (or anyone else who may decide to become an "Involved" editor) with Gavin. This may be the case, and we may have to limit this to content disputes where one of the Involved editors took part. I don't know if we'll be able to extend this request for mediation towards Gavin's involvement with "other" editors. It seems that in the mediation request there is an "additional issues to be mediated" section for other editors to list any issues they wish to include in the mediation?
We will file the case as soon as the steps outlined above (identifying disputed articles and the issues to be mediated, and identifying all attempts at dispute resolution). In the meantime, continued discussion is encouraged. Anyone who has experience with this process is encouraged to share anything they know about it which we have apparently not yet considered. BOZ ( talk) 15:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I have begun working on the formal request for mediation. Please, post your comments here and I will take them into account. I've tried to take into account all the concerns posted above, as well as concerns from Gavin's RFC, as well as concerns posted by Gavin himself. I've tried to remain intentionally vague about any conduct issues, as the RfM guidelines go out of their way to state that RfM is not an outlet for dealing with conduct issues. However, it seemed to lessen the importance of the mediation to not mention the conduct issues at all, so I've got them in there.
Please read what I've got there. If I'm missing something or if I should remove something, let's talk about it now. If I should add any articles with a strong conflict or remove any with a weaker conflict, or if you can think of any other attempts to mediate conflicts between Gavin and RPG editors, now is the time to speak up. If you would like to take this opportunity to become an Involved editor in this RfM, let me know. Please be advised that the Mediation committee will be looking at all editors, and not just Gavin. BOZ ( talk) 03:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I just got my first "cease & desist" from Gavin, and I'm now getting frankly fed up; apparently, any statement that Gavin disagrees with isn't "reasonable" and will be met with a seemingly random collection of policy abbreviations of dubious applicability. Pointing out the lack of applicability gets a long-winded but ultimately bland "I'm right, you're (all) wrong" statement . I've extended more courtesy and patience (and even support) to Gavin than probably most of those who've run into him on gaming-related articles, but his obstinacy in recent discussions at Talk:Kender and the suddenly revitalised brick-wall-esque disagreement over "generic role-playing games" have left me feeling that Gavin is either unwilling or incapable of actually understanding what people say and/or accepting that his first assessment of a situation is wrong. The slow grind of this disruption, combined with the fact that plenty of Gavin's activity is beneficial to wikipedia, makes it hard to deal with. SamBC( talk) 01:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The general consensus here is that any requests for mediation on this topic will fail either because (α) Gavin will not agree to mediation, or (β) mediation will not solve the conduct problems. At this point, all we really can do is file an RfArb and provide evidence. As maligned as it is, it is the only thing we can do at this point in time, but we need to be prepared for this to drag out: ArbCom cases generally take about three weeks from start to finish. - Jéské ( v^_^v Karistaa Usko) 01:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, I was just about ready with the formal request for mediation. Discussing an arbitration case ( see below if you haven't already) was worth considering as an alternative, but we won't be exploring that right now.
I have made the changes I outlines in the above section, and also removed User talk:Gavin.collins#NPOV dispute and User talk:Gavin.collins/Archive 5#Please be civil to all users, as those pertain more to conduct issues than content. I also felt that Talk:Kender#Synthesis, while it does deal with the content issues, doesn't feel to me to be specifically an attempt at dispute resolution. Maybe I'm wrong though, and it can be put back.
If you can find any more attempts at dispute resolution, specifically RFCs related to article content, third party opinion requests on article content, and any informal mediation on user pages related specifically to content issues, let me know and I'll add them.
Also, if anyone else wishes to be added as an involved editor for the RfM, now would be the time to do so. As SamBC asserts, "Anyone who's had an involved run-in with Gavin and wants to participate in mediation to resolve it" is welcome to sign up, but that's purely voluntary.
Any other articles that have been highly disputed over their content that you want me to add, let me know; otherwise I think we have a fine enough sampling here.
If this request seems to be basically fine, we'll go with it and see what happens; we've spent enough time on this and I think it's pretty much ready.
RfM's usually seem to be named after a single article, but in this case that seems inappropriate; anyone have a title to suggest? :) BOZ ( talk) 02:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The case has been accepted, despite initial concerns by many of us that the conduct issues would disqualify it. At this time, we will be waiting for the Mediation Committe to review the case and for a mediator to volunteer to take it. According to a note placed on the case page, if it is not assigned within two weeks (which would be May 12), we can contact the Committe, which we will do if necessary. BOZ ( talk) 00:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
OK, it took almost a month, but I'm finally done with everything I wanted to do (as far as I can figure) with these lists, and I'm taking a break for now. Unless something goes wrong, I plan to move these lists into mainspace some time tonight (otherwise I can do it tomorrow morning) so that whoever would like to can add to them and edit them. :)
As far as redirecting goes, rather than mass-redirect a bunch of articles, I will place merge tags on everything that I feel is a good merge candidate for these lists soon after I make the list articles live. I will be primarily targetting smaller stubby articles, though I may select some larger ones on a case-by-case basis. Naturally, I will be skipping iconic D&D stuff (beholder, illithid, dragons, etc), as well as anything which already got a solid Keep at AFD (slaad, death knight), and anything else that is particularly well-developed. I'll give people 5 days to dispute it, and anything uncontrovertial will be unceremoniously merged and redirected. ;) Anything that gets discussion on the talk page will be allowed to take whatever course it may, since people will have different feelings about different subjects.
If you want to nominate anything monster-related for a merge, please let me get first crack - I think I've earned it with all the work I put into these tables so far. :) I should be done with that by the end of April at the latest, and then go for it. Obviously, anything that has already been redirected because of a previous AFD should be re-redirected to the lists once they are up. BOZ ( talk) 18:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
It is done - I am tired now. :) I've redirected some of the AFD'ed articles into the lists, in case anything useful therein can be gleaned. I've started merge discussions on a dozen or so monster articles. Even that is time consuming, so we'll work on the 1974-1977 stuff first, and then move on from there. Oy, thanks for your patience everyone. :) BOZ ( talk) 03:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi.:) I seem to recall that some members have back issues of Dragon, and was wondering if anyone can check issue 224 for me. Apprantly Harold Johnson wrote something called "First Quest" where he describes how he came up with the idea of the Kender. My source is The Kencyclopedia, but I'd rather confirm it with the original source, and, if possible, confirm the usual referencing details (page, author, title, etc). - Bilby ( talk) 13:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I brought this up at Jéské Couriano's talk page and I might as well extend it here as well. Conflicts with Gavin continue basically unabated, as they have for over six months now, and I'd like to see what can be done about that other than letting him have free reign or waiting until he gives up and goes away. :) Jeske said he would willingly do mediation with Gavin. What about the rest of you? You can be involved directly with the mediation, or just support the mediation effort, or oppose the motion (and state why) or just be neutral and watch how it goes. :) BOZ ( talk) 20:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll be glad to take charge on this one, but if someone with a better head on their shoulders would like to step in, I'd be all too happy to let them do it. :) BOZ ( talk) 21:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Is there a page that describes the dispute or whatever? - Peregrine Fisher ( talk) 03:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
What does mediation involve? What outcomes are possible? Xxanthippe ( talk) 06:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC).
Despite the initial discussions here, it might be fruitless as it appears Gavin may not be interested in mediation. See Jéské's talk page. Measure any response you make carefully. (Indeed, the same goes for any interactions you have with other editors.) Mediation only works if all parties involved agree to it. --Craw-daddy | T | 08:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
If Gavin is not interested in mediation, perhaps we should pursue an RfC again. I will not deny that his style has led to cleanup on a number of articles; however, his attitude and his insistence on remaining completely ignorant about the game industry require serious adjustment if he is to work with rather than against the other editors here. I noted above that he has been spamming tags blindly; by way of evidence I submit:
Snuppy 11:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It may be worth pointing out Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2#Fait accompli here: "Editors who are collectively or individually making large numbers of similar edits, and are apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed, are expected to attempt to resolve the dispute through discussion. It is inappropriate to use repetition or volume in order to present opponents with a fait accompli or to exhaust their ability to contest the change" That would seem to describe Gavin's behaviour perfectly. Percy Snoodle ( talk) 12:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, first of all, anyone participating in any way should familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. In reading that page, a request for mediation must be about content disputes, not conduct disputes. While I agree we have plenty of each, we must do our best to sort out the conduct disputes ("he called me a name!" "he said I was wrong!" "he kicked dirt in my eye!") from the content disputes ("the wrong template was added/removed", "this is a reliable source", etc). I don't think it's unfair to mention that conduct issues have arisen because of the content disputes, but for the RfM process we must focus on how the content is debated first.
We must provide evidence of prior dispute resolution attempts. I think in this case it would be fair to include the RfC on Gavin, as that explicitly discusses content disputes that editors have had with him. Other good things to include would be article talk pages and user talk pages where users have attempted in good faith to negotiate with Gavin (and vice versa) regarding the content of various articles. Of particular note should be any case where a RfC was filed on a particular article, or a third opinion request. Note that if you have not already done so on a current case, it should be OK for you to attempt that now, and the results of which can be added to the RfM case. The way I see it, the more attempts at dispute resolution we can display, so much the better.
On a going-forward basis, I'm going to have to ask that everyone who put their name in the "Support" column above would show the same courtesy, respect, and civility to Gavin that you would expect from him. If you truly do want this mediation to succeed, you will do so; if you do not do so, it is more likely that this will fail.
This is not an attempt to "get Gavin in trouble", because that is not what mediation is for. In fact, the mediation committee cannot get anyone into trouble unless they attempt to abuse the process somehow. It is a voluntary process that all parties will agree on in their approach to further editing. It is not binding, but it does reflect poorly on any parties who agrees to the resolution and then acts contrary to the agreement. It is intended to help provide a reasonable compromise on the issues at hand.
It is unnecessary for our initial request to outline the full history of the dispute until the mediation has been accepted and a mediator has taken the case. Thus, we have some time to think and review on how we are to handle this process. It is not a chance to pull up pages and pages of edits to look for to show diffs as evidence of wrongdoing at this time; I don't know if that is even part of the mediation process. The process is described as "slow", so taking our time is preferable here.
What we do need to find is any article which was disputed and where mediation of some sort would be or would have been helpful. This could be as many as it needs to be, and again I say the more the better. We must clearly identify in each case which issues needed to be mediated (Ex: not just "edit war over templates" but "edit war over templates which I believe were applied incorrectly and I explained why I felt this way on the talk page") by providing a summary.
I do not know if all disputes presented must involve myself and/or Jeske (or anyone else who may decide to become an "Involved" editor) with Gavin. This may be the case, and we may have to limit this to content disputes where one of the Involved editors took part. I don't know if we'll be able to extend this request for mediation towards Gavin's involvement with "other" editors. It seems that in the mediation request there is an "additional issues to be mediated" section for other editors to list any issues they wish to include in the mediation?
We will file the case as soon as the steps outlined above (identifying disputed articles and the issues to be mediated, and identifying all attempts at dispute resolution). In the meantime, continued discussion is encouraged. Anyone who has experience with this process is encouraged to share anything they know about it which we have apparently not yet considered. BOZ ( talk) 15:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I have begun working on the formal request for mediation. Please, post your comments here and I will take them into account. I've tried to take into account all the concerns posted above, as well as concerns from Gavin's RFC, as well as concerns posted by Gavin himself. I've tried to remain intentionally vague about any conduct issues, as the RfM guidelines go out of their way to state that RfM is not an outlet for dealing with conduct issues. However, it seemed to lessen the importance of the mediation to not mention the conduct issues at all, so I've got them in there.
Please read what I've got there. If I'm missing something or if I should remove something, let's talk about it now. If I should add any articles with a strong conflict or remove any with a weaker conflict, or if you can think of any other attempts to mediate conflicts between Gavin and RPG editors, now is the time to speak up. If you would like to take this opportunity to become an Involved editor in this RfM, let me know. Please be advised that the Mediation committee will be looking at all editors, and not just Gavin. BOZ ( talk) 03:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I just got my first "cease & desist" from Gavin, and I'm now getting frankly fed up; apparently, any statement that Gavin disagrees with isn't "reasonable" and will be met with a seemingly random collection of policy abbreviations of dubious applicability. Pointing out the lack of applicability gets a long-winded but ultimately bland "I'm right, you're (all) wrong" statement . I've extended more courtesy and patience (and even support) to Gavin than probably most of those who've run into him on gaming-related articles, but his obstinacy in recent discussions at Talk:Kender and the suddenly revitalised brick-wall-esque disagreement over "generic role-playing games" have left me feeling that Gavin is either unwilling or incapable of actually understanding what people say and/or accepting that his first assessment of a situation is wrong. The slow grind of this disruption, combined with the fact that plenty of Gavin's activity is beneficial to wikipedia, makes it hard to deal with. SamBC( talk) 01:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The general consensus here is that any requests for mediation on this topic will fail either because (α) Gavin will not agree to mediation, or (β) mediation will not solve the conduct problems. At this point, all we really can do is file an RfArb and provide evidence. As maligned as it is, it is the only thing we can do at this point in time, but we need to be prepared for this to drag out: ArbCom cases generally take about three weeks from start to finish. - Jéské ( v^_^v Karistaa Usko) 01:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, I was just about ready with the formal request for mediation. Discussing an arbitration case ( see below if you haven't already) was worth considering as an alternative, but we won't be exploring that right now.
I have made the changes I outlines in the above section, and also removed User talk:Gavin.collins#NPOV dispute and User talk:Gavin.collins/Archive 5#Please be civil to all users, as those pertain more to conduct issues than content. I also felt that Talk:Kender#Synthesis, while it does deal with the content issues, doesn't feel to me to be specifically an attempt at dispute resolution. Maybe I'm wrong though, and it can be put back.
If you can find any more attempts at dispute resolution, specifically RFCs related to article content, third party opinion requests on article content, and any informal mediation on user pages related specifically to content issues, let me know and I'll add them.
Also, if anyone else wishes to be added as an involved editor for the RfM, now would be the time to do so. As SamBC asserts, "Anyone who's had an involved run-in with Gavin and wants to participate in mediation to resolve it" is welcome to sign up, but that's purely voluntary.
Any other articles that have been highly disputed over their content that you want me to add, let me know; otherwise I think we have a fine enough sampling here.
If this request seems to be basically fine, we'll go with it and see what happens; we've spent enough time on this and I think it's pretty much ready.
RfM's usually seem to be named after a single article, but in this case that seems inappropriate; anyone have a title to suggest? :) BOZ ( talk) 02:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The case has been accepted, despite initial concerns by many of us that the conduct issues would disqualify it. At this time, we will be waiting for the Mediation Committe to review the case and for a mediator to volunteer to take it. According to a note placed on the case page, if it is not assigned within two weeks (which would be May 12), we can contact the Committe, which we will do if necessary. BOZ ( talk) 00:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)