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http://thedigitalfront.com/2007/09/05/episode-02-ogld20-panel-at-gen-con/ the one hour and half mp3 from the GenCon panel has someone stating that the existing d20 license for 3.x will no longer exist as well potentially the OGL for it as well under the new 4th edition licenses. someone with better hearing than me may want to listen to and update the relevant pages with the information given at this panel. shadzar| Talk| contribs 17:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Since the FR project has declared itself basically dead, I figured I'd post here. Dove Falconhand is up for deletion, as are Wulfgar (Forgotten Realms), Qilué Veladorn and Dragonbait. Szass Tam has already been deleted. BOZ 12:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Ravenloft domains is up for deletion. — RJH ( talk) 15:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Dungeons and Dragons, an external wiki
It has, as yet, little content. But I think if an article has to be deleted not because it is badly written but because it's subject is not notable in terms of wikipedia, it should be moved there. In contrast to
D&D Wiki it focuses (I think) on canon material, not on homebrew material.
Daranios
17:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
How many articles about D&D topics do we have altogether, and how many of these are stubs? I suspect that there are at least 1000 articles, and possibly 5000, but that at least half of these are permanent stubs or start-class, and therefore a sweeping series of mergers, like what happened at WikiProject Pokemon, would be a good idea: they'd mean all articles were a good length, the article count reflected the actual degree of coverage rather than being deceptively large, and some redundancy of formatting and contextual explanation could be eliminated. Some examples of mergers that I think could be made:
Neon Merlin 18:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Many of the suggested article names above are new names for articles that exist such as List of Dungeons & Dragons deities. - Harmil 23:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
This is something that I've been discussing in a number of places recently. Dragon does *not* always constitute a secondary source. However, when you look at the articles they range from clearly secondary sources: those that evaluate the state of the industry, the history of various fictional elements and games, etc. (the core beliefs series comes to mind); to the clearly primary sources: those that are original game mechanics or fiction. When you have a single magazine that has acted as the center of the genre for 35 years, it's hard to nail down exactly what it is. Certainly it has been a primary source, but I'm trying to note those places where it has been reference as a secondary source. One great example that comes to mind is The Shadow Over D&D which I used as a secondary source in Lovecraftian horror, and was entirely a survey of the history of Lovecraftian elements and direct inclusion in D&D.
PS: When you have such concerns, please come right out and question me on them. Please don't assume I'm a sockpuppet because you disagree with me. - Harmil 23:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see it in the archives, so I'll ask here. The cartoon. Does it fall within the scope of this project? I feel it does, but would like to save the effort of including it if someone's just going to turn up their nose and remove the tag. Howa0082 17:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
The above article has been prodded for deletion. John Carter 17:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
It has gone too far. The continuous hunt for D&D articles goes on, and soon we seem to be left without any character article. Even Artemis Entreri is nominated now!
Ironically, outside D&D chars, no one cares about characters articles notability. SOmething like Category:The Elder Scrolls characters or Category:Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles characters bears no more notability or references, but never nominated. Garret Beaumain ( talk) 14:46, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I guess most people here have seen this already, but an editor is removing many of the valid cleanup tags added to the D&D articles, typically with edit summaries along the lines of "Revert vandal attempting to destroy Wikipedia". They're getting blocked for personal attacks and the like, but keep creating sockpuppets. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Innerupon for a partial list. I'm generally re-adding the tags (especially given our WP:FICT problems), but if anyone else feels that any other action is appropriate, please shout. Cheers -- Pak21 ( talk) 09:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the link fo forerunners in the Githzerai article to the Pharagos:_The_Battleground and also removed the Pharagos:_The_Battleground category of Campaign Setting as per my edit reason. While all 3 magazines are "official" the article itself states it was never a fully developed, and only proposed as a setting. I would consider this like any other content found in the magazine as fan submission since no actual product was created and released; and therefore should not be classified as an actual campaign setting. With my limited knowledge of that which is 3.0/3.5 material I would suggest that someone else should look through other said campaign setting in the category and cleanup any other that may not be official. Example: Warcraft:_The_Roleplaying_Game that was produced under the d20 license/OGL, but not by HASBRO/WoTC. shadzar| Talk| contribs 11:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
As there seem to have been no objections, I have merged all creature type articles except dragon and elemental into the main article at Creature type. This eliminates a bunch of redundant text (including the uncompletable infoboxes and about ten repetitions of "In the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game, ... are a type of creature, or creature type"). I expect that this will be the first in a series of consolidations that will bring both the total number of articles and the number of stubs within the scope of our project under control, and eliminate a lot of redundant text. Neon Merlin 03:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Is it alright if I removed him from the participants list? He's currently banned from Wikipedia unless and until he rescinds the legal threat he made. - Jéské ( Blah v^_^v) 19:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I've just discovered that rpg.net list magazine reviews of each D&D module in their database; see for example, their entry for Dwellers of the Forbidden City. This should help a lot with getting rid of a lot of those notability tags on module articles :-) Cheers -- Pak21 ( talk) 14:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Do we really need a category for dead D&D deities? This seems to violate the spirit of Wikipedia:Writing about fiction, if not an actual policy. I mean, there's no comparative category for "dead Greek gods". I would think that the super-category Category:Dungeons & Dragons deities would be sufficient. But, I'm not feeling bold enough to nominate it for deletion. I figured I'd see what you thought first. -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 03:00, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
There's a Paladin (Dungeons & Dragons) and a Paladin (character class). Merge? GusChiggins21 ( talk) 08:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
OK - an editor placed a fair few notability tags on numerous D&D sourcebooks, citing they fall under Wikipedia:Notability (books). However, I reverted then as they are all (as we know) game resources and supplements rather than books per se. Like other games it would be prudent to tidy up and get independent reviews etc. (which I know exist but have done virtually none in this area and my time is limited) as per game articles. cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 12:06, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Anyone know why the articles in this category are there? I would usually suspect that such categories are reserved for redirects, lists, and such, but most of the articles in this category are regular articles (no matter what deletionists/drive-by taggers may think of them). BOZ ( talk) 13:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
In case any of you haven't noticed yet, I've been (slowly) sorting Category:Articles that need to differentiate between fact and fiction into various genres/subjects via custom templates, one of which has been Category:Dungeons & Dragons articles that need to differentiate between fact and fiction. As far as I can see, this is eliminating the need for Category:Non-article D&D pages. Not to say that a separate "D&D Articles Needing Clean-up" wouldn't be useful at some point, but most articles that are tagged with "Non-article..." are done so via some variant of {{ in-universe}}. — Disavian ( talk/ contribs) 13:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
If anyone has time to weigh in on this discussion of the tags I've removed from this article, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. Rray ( talk) 15:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey folks. Death Knight is up for AfD Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Death_knight, so I was hopping if I could get some help wordsmithing the article some. I have added a number of new references, many from third-party publications, I just need some help making the article a bit better. Thanks. Web Warlock ( talk) 03:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Planetouched is the latest from Gavin. BOZ ( talk) 13:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
There is an article for Creature type but the comment was made that it really should be Creature Type (Dungeons & Dragons). Anyone care to weigh in on this? I think it would be good to move it myself, but will an article ever be created called "Creature Type" that mean something else?? We can just reverse the forwarding that is being done now. Web Warlock ( talk) 03:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that User:Gavin.collins is mass tagging RPG articles with the weasel words template. While I actually happen to agree with most of the templates he adds to articles, I don't see the logic behind his addition of this template to massive numbers of articles. On the other hand, I don't have time to follow him around and revert all of them. Does anyone have any ideas about what could be done about this? An RFC in the past seemed to slow down the number of AfD's Gavin was making. Does that seem necessary here? Rray ( talk) 16:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I saw some discussion about consolidating non-notable articles, but it seems to have gone inactive. Is there an effort underway to assess individual creature articles and merge/redirect those that are non-notable? This would be preferable to mass deletion and will be handled better if someone from this project coordinates it. Pagra shtak 17:29, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I'd suggest putting in merge/redirection suggestions here for (hopefully) brief comments on them, along with some justification for the proposal. This will be some record of why these things are done then. --Craw-daddy | T | 21:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Alright, I'll start with Category:Dungeons & Dragons fey at random. The articles Dryad (Dungeons & Dragons), Feytouched, Grig (Dungeons & Dragons), Jermlaine, Nixie (Dungeons & Dragons), Nymph (Dungeons & Dragons), Ocean Strider, Pixie (Dungeons & Dragons), Sirine, Spirit of the Land, and Thorn (Dungeons & Dragons) look like good candidates for merging into Creature type (Dungeons & Dragons)#Fey. Most of these articles have no references. The few that do have only a primary source given. They focus to much on in-universe content such as physical descriptions or their society, and do not assert real-world notability. Pagra shtak 18:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest that 99% of these can and should be redirected to List of Greyhawk deities or some similar list (if there is another one). For those few that might have some historical context like Baba Yaga, appropriate references should be located and inserted into the articles. --Craw-daddy | T | 11:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I was about to put this on the main page, but thought it would be more appropriate to put it here on the talk page. Instead of editing articles in the mainspace, I thought that it might be better to "userfy" some of them. Is it possible to "userfy" them to the WikiProject? I don't know if it's standard practice that a project can have sandbox pages or not. (I'll look into that.) Part of the reason why I suggest this is so that each individual edit to some article won't necessarily be scrutinized by all eyes of Wikipedia, and editors wouldn't feel the need to "defend" each of their edits. Once a page has reached certain standards (having sufficient third-party refs, attributions to statements and claims in the article, etc, etc), then it could be moved into the mainspace.
For example, the project could take some of the material in the current Beholder article to start a new one in a common sandbox article (without having to look over its shoulder at every step). Then when it satisfies current WP standards of notability, reliable sources, etc it can be passed into the mainspace.
Thoughts, reactions?
Frankly speaking (as I said on the main page in my reactions to "Monster of the Week"), it's simply the case that a lot of D&D monsters aren't notable, at least in the WP:N sense.
It also seems like this project could also use some more members, or more participation by its current members. I mean, heck, I'm not even a member. :) Web Warlock seems to be currently taking up a large portion of the slack, but the project shouldn't expect him to always be so prompt to reply (although I'm sure, collectively, they are thankful for his input and location of references to this point). --Craw-daddy | T | 21:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm involved (sometimes) with WikiProject Notability, and I couldn't help but notice an awful lot of D&D-related articles being tagged for notability in the past few months. For example, see this old version of Cormanthor which I recently attempted to clean up. Unfortunately, there are a lot more like that. I'm not remotely familiar enough with the subject to know what should be kept and cleaned up, redirected, or just deleted. I get the sense that you don't necessarily want an article on every individual artifact or weapon. Is anyone from your project monitoring D&D articles tagged for notability? If not, maybe you could set up a subpage where notability sorters could list articles for evaluation and cleanup. That might save both sides some futile AFD debates. Dchall1 ( talk) 04:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
oddly by [1] it would seem that somehow TSR is alive once again and is in control of D&D copyrights. did i bump my head somewhere thinking Hasbro was still the owner and the ones producing 4th edition via WotC? thanks for clearing this up for me. shadzar| Talk| contribs 10:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Alright. To all members: I need a comprehensive list of all Dungeons & Dragons articles that are not currently semi-protected that have, or have recently had, cleanup tags on them. For background, see Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Grawp - he's been targeting us. - Jéské ( Blah v^_^v) 03:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if anyone has a copy of Black Gate: Adventures in Fantasy Literature, Issue 11, Summer 2007. It has a review of Red Hand of Doom that I would like to reference, but I'm not sure if I can get hold of a copy over here, so I was hoping someone else could add it to the article. :) Bilby ( talk) 21:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Dear all, we have a tricky problem at the Kobold page which focusses on folklore, and I was looking for something which may not exist. As a person who played D&D from 1978, I would have thought D&D was the first gaming genre to introduce a kobold figure into fantasy role-playing (and later computer fantasy gaming). My impression is that Gygax borrowed the word and used it in a fairly reductionistic sense for a goblin-like critter, with size and the elf/goblin being status the only attributes it has in common with the older kobolde of German folklore. And that since then the use of the term has mushroomed into other gaming systems, but clearly derived from D&D. However, all this is OR if we can't get some refs for it. Thus my search for one of those books about D&D, or interviews, and how Gygax etc. decided what critters to use etc.
Does anyone recall seeing one? Casliber ( talk · contribs) 12:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm thinking that, although the non notable monsters aren't, the minor supplements and modules are worth listing in some kind of centralised article, so that we have something to redirect to when the minor ones (maybe stuff like Tome and Blood, I dunno) end up at AfD. I would imagine that we would have a list for 3.0 and 3.5, a list for second edition, and a list for fourth edition. These would list first party products only. Thoughts? J Milburn ( talk) 22:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
If you haven't looked at the Gary Gygax page in awhile, you should probably do so now. :( BOZ ( talk) 00:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
just checking to see if i missed a decision to redirect many monsters to one article. the Grig (Dungeons & Dragons) article brought it to my attention that a handfull of mosnters had been redirected to the Fey creature type article. shadzar- talk 03:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Organizing into some sort of set of lists would be good. Maybe tables with where they first appeared and other info would be appropriate. - Peregrine Fisher ( talk) 20:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
[undent] I agree with Boz's first suggestion. Listing by book means that people could find monsters by book, which is more encyclopedic than looking up the monster to find out which book it came in. We should focus on being about the book rather than the monster, as the books are the notable bit. J Milburn ( talk) 17:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll go and have a play later this evening- at college at the moment. I'll format a few monsters as I think they should be formatted, and see how it looks. J Milburn ( talk) 11:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Here's an opinion piece you might enjoy: [3] BOZ ( talk) 12:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
ok even with slowing down AfDs /this is a bit confussing. can we just used the closed debates format for all articles? this way it won't require moving them between the sections as they would already show the staatus of the debate. or at least using the closed format and then just moving it without the nom name and adding the closing date to it and such. just a suggestion as they appear in two different format in the section this would help editing the closed ones by jsut copy and pasting them to the closed section within the small text formatting. example below: current:
proposed:
or does this and my example break some wikipedia coding/template/functions itself? shadzar- talk 01:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm pretty new here, and by the looks of things a great many pages are being critically looked at and their validity questioned. In this atmosphere I would like everybody to weigh in on the status of the 3.0 and 3.5 manual pages, which are mostly stub articles. I am prepared to go through them and add cover images (many of which I already have uploaded) and flesh out the pages a bit more, if everyone thinks it is a good idea. However, I don't want to waste my time or your time by building these pages that are then going to be 'executed in the purge' so to speak. So I propose the question: should the 3.0 and 3.5 manual articles be expanded individually or not? Any comments would be really welcome. Thanks! Baron ( talk) 02:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I started a new section since the above one is getting pretty bloated. We've been working on this one for the last week or so, and it looks like we're just about done. Personally, I think JMilburn's version is about right on target for where we need to be. If anyone disagrees, please display a more workable version. Otherwise, I intend to start putting it together on Monday, and when it's got a good start, I'm going to move it to the above wikilink. BOZ ( talk) 18:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I have just thought that a 'creative origins' column would also be a useful addition- further meta-game information, information extremely useful to anyone researching D&D's creative origins and some nice links to related mythology articles. My only concern is that there could be a lot of original research in these columns- I mean, some are obvious, a D&D unicorn is obviously taken from the mythical unicorn, but do we have a good source saying that Monstrous Spiders are based on those from Tolkein? J Milburn ( talk) 19:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
on the alingment the only problem i have is that 4th edition is changing again many alignments and removing some aspect of the older emchanics in respect to them. while i don't like this idea, the problem may occur where things that are duplicated, and with monsters they wil be; will you need to have the alignment presented in each book, or just the original books alotted alignemtnf or a given monster. for example, demons/devils have switched sides or some such. while it would be good to list the alignments for older editions, will this cause a problem with the new edition and how it is being done? most things shouldn't change alignment, but with WotC stance of rewriting the entire game there may be many that do change so we should figure something out to prepare for that scenario. but in the event alignment is book and monster specific it may not be a problem with newer book formats. we just change tables/lists to comply with newer books for their monsters. shadzar- talk 02:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, as long threatened, I finally came up with a mock-up for one of the first major sources to focus on monsters, ye olde "White Box" (not White Album). Feel free to have a look and discuss. Notice how the Peregrine Fisher format is slightly smaller when the text gets its own row; imagine how much more cramped it would be to have the descriptive text in a column when you have even more columns than what I used in the first example? BOZ ( talk) 16:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
On a related note, I did discover one very minor problem with the "description on bottom" format; if you try to use the sort function, all the descriptions get sorted under "D" and thus get misaligned. :) Like I said, very minor, but we can't do a sort and have the description beneath the columns like that. BOZ ( talk) 16:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Just giving this its own section so that the discussion above doesn't become too messy- shadzar mentioned alignment is changing in 4th Ed- are they no longer using the nine alignment, L/N/C - G/N/E, system? If not, I support removing the alignment column. If they are, this keeps alignment as the real constant throughout the edition history. As for the alignment changes, just list whatever it says in that particular book- you're mentioning that alternative stats are also listed in other books anyway. This little subsection can also be used to discuss the alignment column in general- I'm for it, because of its consistency and the way it defines a monster, Peregrine Fisher is against it, what do others think? J Milburn ( talk) 18:32, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I think maybe what we should do is put it to a vote for each of the negotiable concepts as far as the tables we're building at User:BOZ/Monster Sandbox - put it on the table for all to decide. That way we build consensus rather than just take what each of the four of us wants, no? In our case, the negotiable items seem to include, 1) An alignment column 2) An image column 3) A OGL url column 4) Sortable tables 5) a row for Description and/or Creative Origins rather than a column 6) Anything I'm forgetting? I think the items we all agree are definite keeps include Other appearances, page #, and having a spot for Creative Origins and any other out-of-universe info we can source. BOZ ( talk) 03:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
My votes:
Peregrine Fisher has just given me an idea. I'm gonna go and have a fiddle with my table. Ok, knocked something up. Check Boz's monster sandbox. Also definately agree with the idea of a template- I'll have a fiddle, see what I can produce, though I'm not too experienced with templates. J Milburn ( talk) 17:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to solicit for people to come vote here. :) BOZ ( talk) 17:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'm not big on voting, but here's what I reckon-
Bilby ( talk) 07:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Looking at this, I've already got a feeling of dread sitting in the pit of my stomach, mainly because, while what I see we're basing it off of is familiar territory, the moment that something like this goes live we'll have every Tom, Dick, and Harry spamming a shitload of creatures into the list from sources like the Book of Erotic Fantasy and Final Fantasy into the list in good-faith (I am aware that Chocoboes have been covered in a Dragon issue once) and making the list unreasonably large. And if experience has taught us anything (particularly in re J Milburn) removal of such crap invites wrath. So, while I do commend this effort, I have to ask why we can't just ignore all the nonnotable monsters instead of listifying them? - Jéské ( v^_^v Detarder) 18:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I think it is worth starting to think about this now- how are we going to arrange the list? It's going to be too big for a single page, far too big. As such, I advocate having a central List of Dungeons & Dragons monsters which lists only the monsters from the main monster book (EG, Monster Manual with 3.5) for each edition. This page will be split by edition, but link to new articles as the 'main' article for each section, such as List of Dungeons & Dragons 3.0 edition monsters. These (or, at least, the 3.5 one) will need to be split again, probably by year. For instance, List of Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 edition monsters (2003-2004). Thoughts? J Milburn ( talk) 18:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
etc? shadzar- talk 23:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I came up with a space-saving idea a little while ago. Take, for example, the Goblin as I came up with it for the "white box". Keep in mind, after that, it appeared in (if not other places) 1E Monster Manual, Monstrous Compendium One, Monstrous Manual, Monster Manual 3E, Monster Manual 3.5... That's starting to get kind of long for a column, especially if we are considering putting in copyright date and ISBN etc. So, here's my idea. It may not be effectively implementable until the articles actually exist, but couldn't hurt to examine it now. Since each book will have a heading wherein the copyright date and ISBN and all that will be listed, instead of being excessively repetetive, how about just linking to each book? For example, the Goblin will link to the section on the 1E page for the Monster Manual, the sections on the 2E page for the Monstrous Compendium and the Monstrous Manual, etc. This way we'll just have the names in that column, like so: Monster Manual II, Monstrous Manual. BOZ ( talk) 23:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The template is good to go, feel free to jump in any time: User:BOZ/List of Dungeons & Dragons monsters. BOZ ( talk) 19:07, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
we have had 5 merges in the recent closed AfD listings. as i am unaware of the material for these specific monsters and what may be needed to be moved into the suggested locations of the mergers i think someone may want to check into it. shadzar- talk 09:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
there are currently about 250 articles in the scope of this project which are tagged with notability concerns. Based on a database snapshot of March 12, I have listed them here.
I would encourage members of this project to have a look at these articles, and see whether independent sources can be added, whether the articles can be merged into an article of larger scope, or possibly be deleted. Any help in cleaning up this backlog is appreciated. For further information, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability.
If you have further questions, please leave a message on the Notability project page or on my personal talk page. (I'm not watching this page however.) Thanks! -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 11:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
thanks to Craw-daddy i have learned two new things in the past few days and have done some work that may help us. the first was yesterday where i fixed the D&D template to the Bannermeta style and updated all existing D&D talk pages that i could find (maybe missing a few) with the new banner template. hopefully this organizes things a bit on the talk pages that it exists on. and a neat little thing i jsut noticed today was the assessment of D&D articles had a little statistics template. i added it on the wikiproject page. it can be moved wherever it needs to be, i placed it above the exists class section at the bottom of the page. this gives us an at a glance look at the numebr of articles that is within our scope/workload and how many of them are what qualirt and importance all at once. i think the sheer number of articles means we need to do some work. out of 749 articles (did i update that many templates yesterday?!?!?!) we have 616 that have an importance rating of NONE. that seems like it may be a bit problematic to our cause. granted with 4th edition around the corner and so much more to consider with adding it to existing articles and maybe even having a few articles on its own nuiances then we need to do something to get to wrok on some of these other articles. granted i think a majority of them are articles on monsters and some are working on that now, but i can't think all 600+ arearticles on monsters are they? what can we do with some of these articles to get them up to code so to speak? or waht aren't we already doing that we should be doing? shadzar- talk 15:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
http://thedigitalfront.com/2007/09/05/episode-02-ogld20-panel-at-gen-con/ the one hour and half mp3 from the GenCon panel has someone stating that the existing d20 license for 3.x will no longer exist as well potentially the OGL for it as well under the new 4th edition licenses. someone with better hearing than me may want to listen to and update the relevant pages with the information given at this panel. shadzar| Talk| contribs 17:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Since the FR project has declared itself basically dead, I figured I'd post here. Dove Falconhand is up for deletion, as are Wulfgar (Forgotten Realms), Qilué Veladorn and Dragonbait. Szass Tam has already been deleted. BOZ 12:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Ravenloft domains is up for deletion. — RJH ( talk) 15:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Dungeons and Dragons, an external wiki
It has, as yet, little content. But I think if an article has to be deleted not because it is badly written but because it's subject is not notable in terms of wikipedia, it should be moved there. In contrast to
D&D Wiki it focuses (I think) on canon material, not on homebrew material.
Daranios
17:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
How many articles about D&D topics do we have altogether, and how many of these are stubs? I suspect that there are at least 1000 articles, and possibly 5000, but that at least half of these are permanent stubs or start-class, and therefore a sweeping series of mergers, like what happened at WikiProject Pokemon, would be a good idea: they'd mean all articles were a good length, the article count reflected the actual degree of coverage rather than being deceptively large, and some redundancy of formatting and contextual explanation could be eliminated. Some examples of mergers that I think could be made:
Neon Merlin 18:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Many of the suggested article names above are new names for articles that exist such as List of Dungeons & Dragons deities. - Harmil 23:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
This is something that I've been discussing in a number of places recently. Dragon does *not* always constitute a secondary source. However, when you look at the articles they range from clearly secondary sources: those that evaluate the state of the industry, the history of various fictional elements and games, etc. (the core beliefs series comes to mind); to the clearly primary sources: those that are original game mechanics or fiction. When you have a single magazine that has acted as the center of the genre for 35 years, it's hard to nail down exactly what it is. Certainly it has been a primary source, but I'm trying to note those places where it has been reference as a secondary source. One great example that comes to mind is The Shadow Over D&D which I used as a secondary source in Lovecraftian horror, and was entirely a survey of the history of Lovecraftian elements and direct inclusion in D&D.
PS: When you have such concerns, please come right out and question me on them. Please don't assume I'm a sockpuppet because you disagree with me. - Harmil 23:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see it in the archives, so I'll ask here. The cartoon. Does it fall within the scope of this project? I feel it does, but would like to save the effort of including it if someone's just going to turn up their nose and remove the tag. Howa0082 17:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
The above article has been prodded for deletion. John Carter 17:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
It has gone too far. The continuous hunt for D&D articles goes on, and soon we seem to be left without any character article. Even Artemis Entreri is nominated now!
Ironically, outside D&D chars, no one cares about characters articles notability. SOmething like Category:The Elder Scrolls characters or Category:Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles characters bears no more notability or references, but never nominated. Garret Beaumain ( talk) 14:46, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I guess most people here have seen this already, but an editor is removing many of the valid cleanup tags added to the D&D articles, typically with edit summaries along the lines of "Revert vandal attempting to destroy Wikipedia". They're getting blocked for personal attacks and the like, but keep creating sockpuppets. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Innerupon for a partial list. I'm generally re-adding the tags (especially given our WP:FICT problems), but if anyone else feels that any other action is appropriate, please shout. Cheers -- Pak21 ( talk) 09:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the link fo forerunners in the Githzerai article to the Pharagos:_The_Battleground and also removed the Pharagos:_The_Battleground category of Campaign Setting as per my edit reason. While all 3 magazines are "official" the article itself states it was never a fully developed, and only proposed as a setting. I would consider this like any other content found in the magazine as fan submission since no actual product was created and released; and therefore should not be classified as an actual campaign setting. With my limited knowledge of that which is 3.0/3.5 material I would suggest that someone else should look through other said campaign setting in the category and cleanup any other that may not be official. Example: Warcraft:_The_Roleplaying_Game that was produced under the d20 license/OGL, but not by HASBRO/WoTC. shadzar| Talk| contribs 11:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
As there seem to have been no objections, I have merged all creature type articles except dragon and elemental into the main article at Creature type. This eliminates a bunch of redundant text (including the uncompletable infoboxes and about ten repetitions of "In the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game, ... are a type of creature, or creature type"). I expect that this will be the first in a series of consolidations that will bring both the total number of articles and the number of stubs within the scope of our project under control, and eliminate a lot of redundant text. Neon Merlin 03:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Is it alright if I removed him from the participants list? He's currently banned from Wikipedia unless and until he rescinds the legal threat he made. - Jéské ( Blah v^_^v) 19:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I've just discovered that rpg.net list magazine reviews of each D&D module in their database; see for example, their entry for Dwellers of the Forbidden City. This should help a lot with getting rid of a lot of those notability tags on module articles :-) Cheers -- Pak21 ( talk) 14:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Do we really need a category for dead D&D deities? This seems to violate the spirit of Wikipedia:Writing about fiction, if not an actual policy. I mean, there's no comparative category for "dead Greek gods". I would think that the super-category Category:Dungeons & Dragons deities would be sufficient. But, I'm not feeling bold enough to nominate it for deletion. I figured I'd see what you thought first. -- GentlemanGhost ( talk) 03:00, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
There's a Paladin (Dungeons & Dragons) and a Paladin (character class). Merge? GusChiggins21 ( talk) 08:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
OK - an editor placed a fair few notability tags on numerous D&D sourcebooks, citing they fall under Wikipedia:Notability (books). However, I reverted then as they are all (as we know) game resources and supplements rather than books per se. Like other games it would be prudent to tidy up and get independent reviews etc. (which I know exist but have done virtually none in this area and my time is limited) as per game articles. cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 12:06, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Anyone know why the articles in this category are there? I would usually suspect that such categories are reserved for redirects, lists, and such, but most of the articles in this category are regular articles (no matter what deletionists/drive-by taggers may think of them). BOZ ( talk) 13:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
In case any of you haven't noticed yet, I've been (slowly) sorting Category:Articles that need to differentiate between fact and fiction into various genres/subjects via custom templates, one of which has been Category:Dungeons & Dragons articles that need to differentiate between fact and fiction. As far as I can see, this is eliminating the need for Category:Non-article D&D pages. Not to say that a separate "D&D Articles Needing Clean-up" wouldn't be useful at some point, but most articles that are tagged with "Non-article..." are done so via some variant of {{ in-universe}}. — Disavian ( talk/ contribs) 13:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
If anyone has time to weigh in on this discussion of the tags I've removed from this article, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. Rray ( talk) 15:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey folks. Death Knight is up for AfD Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Death_knight, so I was hopping if I could get some help wordsmithing the article some. I have added a number of new references, many from third-party publications, I just need some help making the article a bit better. Thanks. Web Warlock ( talk) 03:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Planetouched is the latest from Gavin. BOZ ( talk) 13:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
There is an article for Creature type but the comment was made that it really should be Creature Type (Dungeons & Dragons). Anyone care to weigh in on this? I think it would be good to move it myself, but will an article ever be created called "Creature Type" that mean something else?? We can just reverse the forwarding that is being done now. Web Warlock ( talk) 03:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that User:Gavin.collins is mass tagging RPG articles with the weasel words template. While I actually happen to agree with most of the templates he adds to articles, I don't see the logic behind his addition of this template to massive numbers of articles. On the other hand, I don't have time to follow him around and revert all of them. Does anyone have any ideas about what could be done about this? An RFC in the past seemed to slow down the number of AfD's Gavin was making. Does that seem necessary here? Rray ( talk) 16:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I saw some discussion about consolidating non-notable articles, but it seems to have gone inactive. Is there an effort underway to assess individual creature articles and merge/redirect those that are non-notable? This would be preferable to mass deletion and will be handled better if someone from this project coordinates it. Pagra shtak 17:29, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I'd suggest putting in merge/redirection suggestions here for (hopefully) brief comments on them, along with some justification for the proposal. This will be some record of why these things are done then. --Craw-daddy | T | 21:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Alright, I'll start with Category:Dungeons & Dragons fey at random. The articles Dryad (Dungeons & Dragons), Feytouched, Grig (Dungeons & Dragons), Jermlaine, Nixie (Dungeons & Dragons), Nymph (Dungeons & Dragons), Ocean Strider, Pixie (Dungeons & Dragons), Sirine, Spirit of the Land, and Thorn (Dungeons & Dragons) look like good candidates for merging into Creature type (Dungeons & Dragons)#Fey. Most of these articles have no references. The few that do have only a primary source given. They focus to much on in-universe content such as physical descriptions or their society, and do not assert real-world notability. Pagra shtak 18:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest that 99% of these can and should be redirected to List of Greyhawk deities or some similar list (if there is another one). For those few that might have some historical context like Baba Yaga, appropriate references should be located and inserted into the articles. --Craw-daddy | T | 11:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I was about to put this on the main page, but thought it would be more appropriate to put it here on the talk page. Instead of editing articles in the mainspace, I thought that it might be better to "userfy" some of them. Is it possible to "userfy" them to the WikiProject? I don't know if it's standard practice that a project can have sandbox pages or not. (I'll look into that.) Part of the reason why I suggest this is so that each individual edit to some article won't necessarily be scrutinized by all eyes of Wikipedia, and editors wouldn't feel the need to "defend" each of their edits. Once a page has reached certain standards (having sufficient third-party refs, attributions to statements and claims in the article, etc, etc), then it could be moved into the mainspace.
For example, the project could take some of the material in the current Beholder article to start a new one in a common sandbox article (without having to look over its shoulder at every step). Then when it satisfies current WP standards of notability, reliable sources, etc it can be passed into the mainspace.
Thoughts, reactions?
Frankly speaking (as I said on the main page in my reactions to "Monster of the Week"), it's simply the case that a lot of D&D monsters aren't notable, at least in the WP:N sense.
It also seems like this project could also use some more members, or more participation by its current members. I mean, heck, I'm not even a member. :) Web Warlock seems to be currently taking up a large portion of the slack, but the project shouldn't expect him to always be so prompt to reply (although I'm sure, collectively, they are thankful for his input and location of references to this point). --Craw-daddy | T | 21:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm involved (sometimes) with WikiProject Notability, and I couldn't help but notice an awful lot of D&D-related articles being tagged for notability in the past few months. For example, see this old version of Cormanthor which I recently attempted to clean up. Unfortunately, there are a lot more like that. I'm not remotely familiar enough with the subject to know what should be kept and cleaned up, redirected, or just deleted. I get the sense that you don't necessarily want an article on every individual artifact or weapon. Is anyone from your project monitoring D&D articles tagged for notability? If not, maybe you could set up a subpage where notability sorters could list articles for evaluation and cleanup. That might save both sides some futile AFD debates. Dchall1 ( talk) 04:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
oddly by [1] it would seem that somehow TSR is alive once again and is in control of D&D copyrights. did i bump my head somewhere thinking Hasbro was still the owner and the ones producing 4th edition via WotC? thanks for clearing this up for me. shadzar| Talk| contribs 10:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Alright. To all members: I need a comprehensive list of all Dungeons & Dragons articles that are not currently semi-protected that have, or have recently had, cleanup tags on them. For background, see Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Grawp - he's been targeting us. - Jéské ( Blah v^_^v) 03:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if anyone has a copy of Black Gate: Adventures in Fantasy Literature, Issue 11, Summer 2007. It has a review of Red Hand of Doom that I would like to reference, but I'm not sure if I can get hold of a copy over here, so I was hoping someone else could add it to the article. :) Bilby ( talk) 21:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Dear all, we have a tricky problem at the Kobold page which focusses on folklore, and I was looking for something which may not exist. As a person who played D&D from 1978, I would have thought D&D was the first gaming genre to introduce a kobold figure into fantasy role-playing (and later computer fantasy gaming). My impression is that Gygax borrowed the word and used it in a fairly reductionistic sense for a goblin-like critter, with size and the elf/goblin being status the only attributes it has in common with the older kobolde of German folklore. And that since then the use of the term has mushroomed into other gaming systems, but clearly derived from D&D. However, all this is OR if we can't get some refs for it. Thus my search for one of those books about D&D, or interviews, and how Gygax etc. decided what critters to use etc.
Does anyone recall seeing one? Casliber ( talk · contribs) 12:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm thinking that, although the non notable monsters aren't, the minor supplements and modules are worth listing in some kind of centralised article, so that we have something to redirect to when the minor ones (maybe stuff like Tome and Blood, I dunno) end up at AfD. I would imagine that we would have a list for 3.0 and 3.5, a list for second edition, and a list for fourth edition. These would list first party products only. Thoughts? J Milburn ( talk) 22:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
If you haven't looked at the Gary Gygax page in awhile, you should probably do so now. :( BOZ ( talk) 00:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
just checking to see if i missed a decision to redirect many monsters to one article. the Grig (Dungeons & Dragons) article brought it to my attention that a handfull of mosnters had been redirected to the Fey creature type article. shadzar- talk 03:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Organizing into some sort of set of lists would be good. Maybe tables with where they first appeared and other info would be appropriate. - Peregrine Fisher ( talk) 20:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
[undent] I agree with Boz's first suggestion. Listing by book means that people could find monsters by book, which is more encyclopedic than looking up the monster to find out which book it came in. We should focus on being about the book rather than the monster, as the books are the notable bit. J Milburn ( talk) 17:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll go and have a play later this evening- at college at the moment. I'll format a few monsters as I think they should be formatted, and see how it looks. J Milburn ( talk) 11:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Here's an opinion piece you might enjoy: [3] BOZ ( talk) 12:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
ok even with slowing down AfDs /this is a bit confussing. can we just used the closed debates format for all articles? this way it won't require moving them between the sections as they would already show the staatus of the debate. or at least using the closed format and then just moving it without the nom name and adding the closing date to it and such. just a suggestion as they appear in two different format in the section this would help editing the closed ones by jsut copy and pasting them to the closed section within the small text formatting. example below: current:
proposed:
or does this and my example break some wikipedia coding/template/functions itself? shadzar- talk 01:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm pretty new here, and by the looks of things a great many pages are being critically looked at and their validity questioned. In this atmosphere I would like everybody to weigh in on the status of the 3.0 and 3.5 manual pages, which are mostly stub articles. I am prepared to go through them and add cover images (many of which I already have uploaded) and flesh out the pages a bit more, if everyone thinks it is a good idea. However, I don't want to waste my time or your time by building these pages that are then going to be 'executed in the purge' so to speak. So I propose the question: should the 3.0 and 3.5 manual articles be expanded individually or not? Any comments would be really welcome. Thanks! Baron ( talk) 02:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I started a new section since the above one is getting pretty bloated. We've been working on this one for the last week or so, and it looks like we're just about done. Personally, I think JMilburn's version is about right on target for where we need to be. If anyone disagrees, please display a more workable version. Otherwise, I intend to start putting it together on Monday, and when it's got a good start, I'm going to move it to the above wikilink. BOZ ( talk) 18:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I have just thought that a 'creative origins' column would also be a useful addition- further meta-game information, information extremely useful to anyone researching D&D's creative origins and some nice links to related mythology articles. My only concern is that there could be a lot of original research in these columns- I mean, some are obvious, a D&D unicorn is obviously taken from the mythical unicorn, but do we have a good source saying that Monstrous Spiders are based on those from Tolkein? J Milburn ( talk) 19:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
on the alingment the only problem i have is that 4th edition is changing again many alignments and removing some aspect of the older emchanics in respect to them. while i don't like this idea, the problem may occur where things that are duplicated, and with monsters they wil be; will you need to have the alignment presented in each book, or just the original books alotted alignemtnf or a given monster. for example, demons/devils have switched sides or some such. while it would be good to list the alignments for older editions, will this cause a problem with the new edition and how it is being done? most things shouldn't change alignment, but with WotC stance of rewriting the entire game there may be many that do change so we should figure something out to prepare for that scenario. but in the event alignment is book and monster specific it may not be a problem with newer book formats. we just change tables/lists to comply with newer books for their monsters. shadzar- talk 02:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, as long threatened, I finally came up with a mock-up for one of the first major sources to focus on monsters, ye olde "White Box" (not White Album). Feel free to have a look and discuss. Notice how the Peregrine Fisher format is slightly smaller when the text gets its own row; imagine how much more cramped it would be to have the descriptive text in a column when you have even more columns than what I used in the first example? BOZ ( talk) 16:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
On a related note, I did discover one very minor problem with the "description on bottom" format; if you try to use the sort function, all the descriptions get sorted under "D" and thus get misaligned. :) Like I said, very minor, but we can't do a sort and have the description beneath the columns like that. BOZ ( talk) 16:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Just giving this its own section so that the discussion above doesn't become too messy- shadzar mentioned alignment is changing in 4th Ed- are they no longer using the nine alignment, L/N/C - G/N/E, system? If not, I support removing the alignment column. If they are, this keeps alignment as the real constant throughout the edition history. As for the alignment changes, just list whatever it says in that particular book- you're mentioning that alternative stats are also listed in other books anyway. This little subsection can also be used to discuss the alignment column in general- I'm for it, because of its consistency and the way it defines a monster, Peregrine Fisher is against it, what do others think? J Milburn ( talk) 18:32, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I think maybe what we should do is put it to a vote for each of the negotiable concepts as far as the tables we're building at User:BOZ/Monster Sandbox - put it on the table for all to decide. That way we build consensus rather than just take what each of the four of us wants, no? In our case, the negotiable items seem to include, 1) An alignment column 2) An image column 3) A OGL url column 4) Sortable tables 5) a row for Description and/or Creative Origins rather than a column 6) Anything I'm forgetting? I think the items we all agree are definite keeps include Other appearances, page #, and having a spot for Creative Origins and any other out-of-universe info we can source. BOZ ( talk) 03:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
My votes:
Peregrine Fisher has just given me an idea. I'm gonna go and have a fiddle with my table. Ok, knocked something up. Check Boz's monster sandbox. Also definately agree with the idea of a template- I'll have a fiddle, see what I can produce, though I'm not too experienced with templates. J Milburn ( talk) 17:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to solicit for people to come vote here. :) BOZ ( talk) 17:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'm not big on voting, but here's what I reckon-
Bilby ( talk) 07:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Looking at this, I've already got a feeling of dread sitting in the pit of my stomach, mainly because, while what I see we're basing it off of is familiar territory, the moment that something like this goes live we'll have every Tom, Dick, and Harry spamming a shitload of creatures into the list from sources like the Book of Erotic Fantasy and Final Fantasy into the list in good-faith (I am aware that Chocoboes have been covered in a Dragon issue once) and making the list unreasonably large. And if experience has taught us anything (particularly in re J Milburn) removal of such crap invites wrath. So, while I do commend this effort, I have to ask why we can't just ignore all the nonnotable monsters instead of listifying them? - Jéské ( v^_^v Detarder) 18:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I think it is worth starting to think about this now- how are we going to arrange the list? It's going to be too big for a single page, far too big. As such, I advocate having a central List of Dungeons & Dragons monsters which lists only the monsters from the main monster book (EG, Monster Manual with 3.5) for each edition. This page will be split by edition, but link to new articles as the 'main' article for each section, such as List of Dungeons & Dragons 3.0 edition monsters. These (or, at least, the 3.5 one) will need to be split again, probably by year. For instance, List of Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 edition monsters (2003-2004). Thoughts? J Milburn ( talk) 18:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
etc? shadzar- talk 23:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I came up with a space-saving idea a little while ago. Take, for example, the Goblin as I came up with it for the "white box". Keep in mind, after that, it appeared in (if not other places) 1E Monster Manual, Monstrous Compendium One, Monstrous Manual, Monster Manual 3E, Monster Manual 3.5... That's starting to get kind of long for a column, especially if we are considering putting in copyright date and ISBN etc. So, here's my idea. It may not be effectively implementable until the articles actually exist, but couldn't hurt to examine it now. Since each book will have a heading wherein the copyright date and ISBN and all that will be listed, instead of being excessively repetetive, how about just linking to each book? For example, the Goblin will link to the section on the 1E page for the Monster Manual, the sections on the 2E page for the Monstrous Compendium and the Monstrous Manual, etc. This way we'll just have the names in that column, like so: Monster Manual II, Monstrous Manual. BOZ ( talk) 23:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The template is good to go, feel free to jump in any time: User:BOZ/List of Dungeons & Dragons monsters. BOZ ( talk) 19:07, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
we have had 5 merges in the recent closed AfD listings. as i am unaware of the material for these specific monsters and what may be needed to be moved into the suggested locations of the mergers i think someone may want to check into it. shadzar- talk 09:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
there are currently about 250 articles in the scope of this project which are tagged with notability concerns. Based on a database snapshot of March 12, I have listed them here.
I would encourage members of this project to have a look at these articles, and see whether independent sources can be added, whether the articles can be merged into an article of larger scope, or possibly be deleted. Any help in cleaning up this backlog is appreciated. For further information, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability.
If you have further questions, please leave a message on the Notability project page or on my personal talk page. (I'm not watching this page however.) Thanks! -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 11:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
thanks to Craw-daddy i have learned two new things in the past few days and have done some work that may help us. the first was yesterday where i fixed the D&D template to the Bannermeta style and updated all existing D&D talk pages that i could find (maybe missing a few) with the new banner template. hopefully this organizes things a bit on the talk pages that it exists on. and a neat little thing i jsut noticed today was the assessment of D&D articles had a little statistics template. i added it on the wikiproject page. it can be moved wherever it needs to be, i placed it above the exists class section at the bottom of the page. this gives us an at a glance look at the numebr of articles that is within our scope/workload and how many of them are what qualirt and importance all at once. i think the sheer number of articles means we need to do some work. out of 749 articles (did i update that many templates yesterday?!?!?!) we have 616 that have an importance rating of NONE. that seems like it may be a bit problematic to our cause. granted with 4th edition around the corner and so much more to consider with adding it to existing articles and maybe even having a few articles on its own nuiances then we need to do something to get to wrok on some of these other articles. granted i think a majority of them are articles on monsters and some are working on that now, but i can't think all 600+ arearticles on monsters are they? what can we do with some of these articles to get them up to code so to speak? or waht aren't we already doing that we should be doing? shadzar- talk 15:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)