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Can we please revisit this topic? I tried to bring it up here but it kinda fizzled out. I hate seeing these in discographies — they're unofficial, they're only used to hype up an album release, but there seems to be no clean consensus about whether they should be kept in discographies. Supposedly at one point the style guideline said "no" but now it doesn't? Anyone? - eo ( talk) 20:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
==Mixtapes==
- Mixtape 1 (2007)
- Mixtape 2 (2008)
Mixtape 2 (2009)
not sufficient instead of the tables. --
Lil_℧niquℇ №1 |
talk2me 20:38, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
←The problem I have here is that a notable mixtape is the exception, not the norm. 99% of the ones I see in discographies are unofficial and unsupported by any label. It's also very difficult to discern which ones are "OK" (for lack of a better term) and which ones aren't. Mixtapes may help the careers of some R&B/Hip-hop artists, but who is to decide whether Artist A's mixtapes are more notable than Artist B's? I see a bunch of random titles thrown into discographies, and worse, articles created for mixtapes that assert no notability whatsoever. In the prior conversation about mixtapes, User:JohnFromPinckney had a great comment and I'll quote it here because it pretty much sums things up: "A mixtape would have to be pretty damned notable to be written about in what I'd call reliable sources. For me, it has as much to do with verifiability as notability. What I see ... is a bunch of names being plunked down under the heading "Mixtapes", invariably unreferenced, but when there is a reference, it goes to some hip-hop blog or hot-rapper-gossip-scene-download-and-listen-NOW site. In that sense, mixtapes represent some list of random strings of words alleged to comprise a title." - eo ( talk) 22:53, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps WP:NMUSIC needs updating with specific clarity for mixtapes? -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 | talk2me 21:59, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
While I've got my hammer and chisel in my hands, ready to enshrine our well-reasoned consensus into a clear form on the Style page, I thought I'd put in whatever we decided about mixtapes. Since the topic still appears a bit murky to me, I'd like to write out my proposed changes here first, to avoid what I expect would be extra edits, reversions, disarray, etc., on the main page. First, then, here's my assessment of our results:
{{
Citation needed}}
, using the date=
parameter, and after a month or two we can delete still-unreferenced mixtapes without remorse.)Please note your satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the above assessment and register your response to the questions. — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 08:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Okay, so I haven't worked up any change proposals yet. When I do, they'll be here. OTOH, maybe I'm waiting for your comments above... When I've got some assurance about what we want (and I have time), I'll start on figuring out what needs changing to suit our consensus. — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 08:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Please note your satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the above draft edits. — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 08:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
The style guidelines say not to bold the title, yet MOS:BOLDTITLE encourages the bolding of simple descriptions. Most of the project's articles open with "discography of (artist)", so per the MOS, wouldn't that be bolded as a simple description? Now granted, not every discography opens that way, but this is in regards to those that do. – Chase ( talk / contribs) 00:15, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
As an FLC regular, the indefinite "proposed" status of this page is quite frustrating, as I see numerous discography editors quoting it almost as policy. Can music editors please decide once and for all whether or not this "guideline" has consensus, so that the rest of the Wikipedia community does not have to be kept guessing? Dabomb87 ( talk) 13:49, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Well, here's one of the problems I still have with Wikipedia. After learning how to edit, preview, revert, contact individual editors, use templates, and lots more, I still am not clear on how to get a consensus on some non-trivial topic such that nobody will come along and say, "but we didn't know". What billboards do these invitations have to be plastered across to satisfy everybody (and still get some results before we die), and how am I supposed to know which ones they are? — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 16:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi. In this guideline, table captions are way too verbose. They are supposed to be simple and efficient. I asked advice to an expert recently, and he said that "making a table caption is just as obvious as making section headers: it's exactly the same thing. In fact, so similar that it's instinctive, and lots of Wikipedia users have been doing it successfully for years relying on their instinct alone".
"List of singles, with selected chart positions and certifications, showing year released and album name" is way too long. It was written thinking too hard about what a blind user might expect, believing that there is a significant difference between they way an average user and a blind person use a table. Truth is, there is not that much of a difference, at least not when the table is accessible. Instead, simply imagine that there is no section header before the table, and that the user jump on the table without reading what was written above. The user wants a table caption, onyl to know quickly what the table is about. If the table caption is too long, it doesn't play its role efficiently. There are lots of possibilities. But you don't want to have a table caption that would take longer to read than figuring out the content of the table all by yourself. Here is a few possibilities:
Those would be fine, it's not that complicated. Repeating the headers in the caption is redundant for blind users. If they want the main column headers read aloud, they can ask their screen reader to do so easily since the table is structured with scope="col/row". They simply want an efficient table header, no less and no more.
In cases where the table is hard to understand visually for sighted users too, table captions may become slightly more descriptive to fit the needs. But again it's trivial, and you'll know it yourself when the table caption is not descriptive enough or instead not concise enough. Yours, Dodoïste ( talk) 01:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
When the new style was implemented, several discogs such as Kesha discography and Kelly Rowland discography, as well as Fantasia Barrino discography used sortable music video tables. They are used now on the current FLC Chris Brown discography and an editor has brought up why. Can someone comment on the matter or explain?
Is it LAW that to put a certification up on somebodies discography the country the certification is from must also have chart positions shown? I understand why this makes sense if the album/single in question has MANY certifications but what if there are just a few? I've noticed that most discographies usually have 6 certifications max per album and that they are usually countries that have the chart positions up too which is awsome but for albums/singles with say 5 certifications total doesn't it make more sense to put them all up than leave a few off just because the chart positions arn't shown on the discography page? E.G Adele discography where her new album "21" has been certified in the UK, Germany, Canada, Belgium and New Zealand but the albums Belgian position isn't shown, doesn't it make more sense to put the certification up until there are 6 certifications from countries that have positions shown which can replace it? Sorry if i'm rambling but it frustrates me because as a fan of certain singers/bands i'd rather see some certifications than none. -- Duphin ( talk) 00:51, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
i know quite a long time ago discography articles used to include album cover images, and these were all removed at least 2yrs ago. recently have had another user trying to add an album cover image to an FL discography. i have been removing it, being called a vandal and don't know what i'm talking about. have things changed, are they now allowed? opinions please? thanks. Mister sparky ( talk) 14:49, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Record charts/RFC has been relatively unattended, and I would like to hear more voices.— Kww( talk) 18:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Is this actually still being discussed as a possible guideline? I see no evidence anywhere of that being the case, and if that's correct, can we please remove the tag? It seems to be causing some confusion for some editors. The Rambling Man ( talk) 07:26, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Please be aware that the manual of style regards the use of deliberately forcing smaller text as inappropriate. I see the use of html tags in your examples here, such as <small> which I suppose does not necessarily meet with the expectations of MOS. The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:29, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
<small>
markup to be too small, and would prefer markup (if these are to be made somewhat smaller than normal) like <span style="font-size:85%;"></span>
, with the size at 90% (as with country col headings and legend footer) or 85% (as in the "featuring Ricky Nelson" example) at the lower limit. —
JohnFromPinckney (
talk) 23:14, 1 October 2011 (UTC)Perhaps I'm being dense, but albums table given here has a "sales" column (along with certification) but the singles table doesn't. Why the inconsistency? The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:34, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
Just a query really, why do you intend to "rowspan" the album (for multiple singles from a particular album) but you don't "rowspan" the year of release for singles released in a single year? Have you consulted anyone commensurate with WP:ACCESS about any of this? The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:36, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
I think this should also include "or was not released in that territory" as "releases that did not chart" implies a release actually happened in every territory in the table. It should be also be noted that for a "release" that didn't chart in any territory, it must be individually referenced as the chart references will clearly not cover them. The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:32, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
There's often some debate over the correct abbreviations to use for a particular country's chart. This guide should state how this is done. For instance, is Germany GER or DEU, is Denmark DEN or DAN? The Netherlands NDL or NLD? Where do editors go to find the right answer? The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:38, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
I personally think that as long as it is consistent throughout the article, it doesn't matter which type is used. — Status { talk contribs 11:25, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm glad people are looking at this page again, and I hope it will end up being looked at and discussed by many more than just The Rambling Man.
In the comments above this section right now, I see a repeated concern about the two samples on the actual project page. The upper table is a sample of albums listings, and the lower table is a sample of singles listings. They are naturally different, not least because they are examples of (what we want to call "preferred") ways to list two different kinds of recordings. Further, they are deliberately taken from two different articles. However, it seems that these differences are causing confusion about how to do discography tables and, worse, may also be undermining trust in the page as a possible guideline for discog editors.
Each table is meant to be just one single example of what that kind of table should look like. Actual column widths should depend on the particular discog the tables are on (see my attempts at explanation in Consensus above). Whether a sales column appears in either table (or both, or neither) depends on the particular discog and the sourced info available. Whether Finland's peaks are used depend on decisions about the individual discog, and is not dependent on the fact that both sample tables happen to have FIN columns.
Do you have suggestions about how we can better explain the variability of these samples, or is the whole concept of the page ill-devised? We could go into detail about column and row heading markup and point to MOS:DTT, for example. The gist of the page is supposed to be what comes before the samples; the samples help (AFAIAC) provide examples of layout and markup which can be copied and adapted individually. There's also the IAR section at the end, which should encourage editors to select and arrange columns as best suited to the individual artist's works. Perhaps that part needs rewording, or relocation? — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 23:01, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
This guide claims one thing, but many other discographies are structured in different ways. An example are the country music artists. I don't understand why the sub-genre chart is posted before the main chart in their page. Furthermore, the countries of the peak chart positions, aren't never in alphabetical order after the country where the artist is born. For the albums table, i support this guide, also if would be better to switch the order of the colum of the certifications and sales and in the column of the sales, to explain when the sale posted is refered to retail sales or shipment sales based on certifications. For the singles table, same thing and add that the year would be posted before the name of the single. Furthermore, i propose that for the artists with great impact that have got many and many certifications and/or many albums charted in several countries, in addition to standard page, would be good to creat also two pages of deepening: one for the peak chart positions and one for the certifications and sales, like happens in the Elvis Presley discography, or Michael Jackson discography. After all, we should offer as much information as possible. This is an encyclopedia, no? SJ ( talk) 03:22, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I've just noticed today in reviewing a discog, that the three-letter abbreviations used for charts are also used for certification bodies. This is confusing. I am not aware of anywhere else that would use the same three-letter abbreviations for two different things. I understand they are linked and I understand they're in different columns in the table, I just think it a little strange, particularly when (in the case of the K-Ci & JoJo discography) SWE in the releases means Sverigetopplistan, a distinctly Swedish entity, but the SWE in certifications stands for International Federation of the Phonographic Industry which is an international organisation. Indeed, in the Katy Perry discography, AUT, GER and SWI all link to the same body (IFPI). While it's clear to the Discog community, this is potentially very unclear to the rest of the reading public. The Rambling Man ( talk) 14:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Rough example used from Jennifer Lopez discography:
Certifications |
---|
ABC order or same order as chart positions? — Status { talk contribs 21:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
I've officially applied this to Jennifer Lopez discography. What do you guys think? — Status { talk contribs 23:43, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
That's true, people will probably just say they don't know it because it's different. I say we go ahead and change it. I think the headings should always go to the chart. I'll comment on the chart abbreviations later. — Status { talk contribs 11:17, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
We've made this change in, what, four discographies now? I'm happy with it, but it looks strange and wrong to people (especially those not watching this discussion, which is about 7 billion people), and they tend to revert to protect/repair the article. This happens especially when the trendy editor making this fashionable change fails to include an edit summary *ahem* mentioning even a trial of a discussion on the Talk page of a "failed proposal", much less "per MoS/discographies".
I'd like to at least incorporate the consensus above into the WP:DISCOGSTYLE page so that, official style guide or not, it can be pointed to in edit summaries and (more) people will begin noticing the change. But how to go about it? I think we might need to provide a full list of providers with links, in alpha order as we like them, so editors can just copy the work. I guess in the Per-release section's #8 I'll add a note of explanation about alpha order by provider (following home country's provider), with a pointer to the example list. What do you think? — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 17:52, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
John, good job. One thing struck me. If the Russian certification agency doesn't even have an article, is it actually notable enough for inclusion? The Rambling Man ( talk) 15:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm looking at Canada to come up with a recommendation for a certs abbreviation. Currently, certs come from Music Canada, but they were called CRIA until quite recently. A note from Status earlier in this section suggests we use "CRIA" for older certs, "MC" for awards since the name change. I'd really like to avoid this, because it's harder to explain and we then need to know the exact date of the name change (July 8, 2011? July 7?) as well as the date of each award. I'll go with consensus, though.
I see by the way, that Jennifer Lopez discography uses CRIA throughout (awards from 2001–06) and K-Ci & JoJo discography uses MC even for old works like Love Always (1998). How important is it that we use two abbreviations for Canada? There were apparently the CRMA before 1972, BTW. — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 01:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, I've just updated the page to show abbreviated providers rather than countries in the certs columns of the sample tables. I also added a big section on what to list for certifications, and how to link and order the provider abbreviations. I'm afraid this will be too long for many, but I wanted to provide clear descriptions. I think this is especially important since it is a bit different to what editors are used to.
The table of providers is by country, kind of, but initially ordered by provider. I did it this way so that it's easy to see the order the certs for any given recording should be in. Of course, all of the columns are sortable, so users should have no trouble finding the country or determining display order.
The table has 26 countries, out of about 56 possibilities. If someone needs to add an Argentinian cert (because their artist is South American and she's huge in Argentina), then they can probably go to the List of music recording certifications mentioned after the table and determine that CAPIF is what should be added. If you think there are still too many countries in that table, please say so here and we can decide which to cut; I figured it's easier to remove them than add them.
I left Canada as CRIA, although I'm agreeable to changing it (I might convince myself to change it to MC anyway). I've used IFPI DEN, although I'd prefer IFPI DNK in keeping with ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 country codes (Switzerland's not "right" that way, either). I also added a few other notes to try and clarify the samples and their purpose. I have not done anything about sales figures or any abbreviations there yet.
As usual, comments welcome. — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 13:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Given the fact we now see old hits (e.g. Elvis, The Beatles, The Goo Goo Dolls, Rage Against The Macine) getting truly significant hits, should we actually ensure that sales figures for singles and albums have an "as of" date associated with them? The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Excuse me if this was already addressed. The guidelines says "Certifications for countries whose peaks are not shown should also be left out of the per-release listing, per WP:INDISCRIMINATE." How about IFPI Europe certifications? Is any chart in Europe enough to include it? Is the European Top 100 Albums required? I'm asking since it seems that by not specifying this, the guideline leaves a gap open, and I think IFPI certifications are in many cases preferable to many smaller county certifications. -- Muhandes ( talk) 12:27, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
I don't support this at all, things were fine the way they were country abbreviations are just fine for indicating association providers and it doesn't make much of a difference. I think we should leave the country abbreviations to give people a better idea of which country an album or a single is certified in, like how would people know that UK = BPI or AUS = ARIA, it will just make things more confusing and over detailed. Hometown Kid ( talk) 15:20, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
i also disagree with the certification abbreviation changes. you are correct that probably 95% of editors will know what they mean, but this isn't about editors. the average joe visiting a page will not have a clue. much simpler and less confusing to just have the country. why is there a need to change it at all. alot of thigs are being proposed to change lately and nobody can seem to agree. plus there's no way of "enforcing" any changes as it's just a failed proposal, because there isn't any agreement. Mister sparky ( talk) 17:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
None of this addresses the fundamental issue that you should not use the same abbreviation to represent different entities. No matter what you think, this is confusing. The Rambling Man ( talk) 14:26, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
This guide claims one thing, but many other discographies are structured in different ways. An example are the country music artists. I don't understand why the sub-genre chart is posted before the main chart in their page. Furthermore, the countries of the peak chart positions, aren't never in alphabetical order after the country where the artist is born. For the albums table, i support this guide ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Discographies/style&oldid=455789028 ), also if would be better to switch the order of the colum of the certifications and sales and in the column of the sales, to explain when the sale posted is refered to retail sales or shipment sales based on certifications. For the singles table, same thing and add that the year would be posted before the name of the single. Furthermore, i propose that for the artists with great impact that have got many and many certifications and/or many albums charted in several countries, in addition to standard page, would be good to creat also two pages of deepening: one for the peak chart positions and one for the certifications and sales, like happens in the Elvis Presley discography, or Michael Jackson discography. After all, we should offer as much information as possible. This is an encyclopedia, no? SJ ( talk) 16:51, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree 100 percent with Hometown Kid. The average person would have no idea what those abbreviations mean. And although I do like what Michael Jester has done to the discography pages for the most part, I have to disagree on this change. HAving the country (US, CAN, UK, etc.) is just so much more simpler than having RIAA, CRIA, BPI. Again, we have to remember that its not only about us, the users, but about the billions around the world that use Wikipedia as a source. Live and Die 4 Hip Hop ( talk) 15:29, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Just wish to reiterate that we should not use the same abbreviation on the same page to mean two completely different things. That's fundamental (and dare I say obvious). The Rambling Man ( talk) 10:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Honestly, i am VERY confused about this. I see no point whatsoever to this, Wikipedia is not about being "professional", it's about being an easy-to-understand place for everything the average Joe & Jane can use and easily understand. The point raised about the "US, UK, AUS" system being confusing is absolutely ridiculous, especially when saying that "RIAA, BPI, ARIA" is easier to understand. I'd just like to know what is the point, because this is a big change that is stirring up a lot.-- 124.169.154.69 ( talk) 14:03, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Ringtones are part of discographies for all artists, and are added to records sold. So you must include it in discographies. Silencio faz bem ( talk) 00:33, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
At the moment, the guideline is not to put bootlegs in an artist's discography. I've added a few articles on bootlegs recently, and while most are not notable, a handful, such as Elvis' Greatest Shit, Golden Eggs and The Dark Side of the Moo do have enough coverage in reliable sources to have articles (IMHO). I'd be inclined to modify "no bootlegs" to "no bootlegs, unless the bootleg passes WP:GNG and can have its own article". What do others think? -- Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:07, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
How do we define a 'single' in this post-physical day and age? Is it any song from an album released in advance of the album's release? Is it any song from an alabum that has a music video produced for it? Is it any song from an album that seems to be notably pushed forward in some promotional way (like being offered up for a remix competition or somesuch?) Wetdogmeat ( talk) 16:03, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I was recently looking at artist discographies, and saw that when a song charted on bubbling under, it was put as 1xx (for example 116 for US or US R&B). While I used to think this was right, the recent revamp of billboard charts tells me otherwise. For instance the the R&B/Hip-Hop chart is now 50 positions, so there is no way that bubbling under is in the 100s. Plus a number of songs in the 51-100 portion of the chart last week fell off this week as a result of the new methodology, and aren't represented at all, whereas songs that were on the bubbling under 100 last week are still bubbling under the top 50 this week. For example, the R&B Songs chart takes the top R&B songs from the R&B Hip-Hop chart. Ciara's "Sorry" is at 20, on that chart, but just misses the mark for the top fifty on R&B/Hip-Hop, but is not represented. Instead, it still has to keep its peak of 75 from last week. Rihannas "Cockiness" on the other hand is 25 on R&B and 7, on bubbling under, but in no way can it be put at 57, when its definattely not. Plus it can't be at 107 as there is no positions 51-100. So, I think a note can be made about bubbling under R&B in discographies, but it should not be in columns (see Chris Brown discography, others). The same should go for bubbling under hot 100 as well, as if billboard reduced hot 100 to 50, all 1xx would not make sense either. Thoughts?-- 138.238.233.1 ( talk) 01:36, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I recently created the page Marcella Detroit discography page, but I'm not sure about what to do regarding two releases (Button Fly Blues and The Upside of Being Down) which she did with her band - the Marcy Levy Band. The band is not notable enough to have an article of their own. Right now the releases are placed under "With Marcy Levy Band" sub-section, but I'm not sure if this is how it should be done correctly. I know I could also place them under "Collaborative studio albums" and so on, the problem with that is it opens the way for her work with Shakespears Sister, who were more successful than she was in her solo career.-- Meluvseveryone ( talk) 08:51, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Compilation albums that are selections by the artist, all containing songs by other artists are not to be included in the discography page. Am I right? Raykyogrou0 ( Talk) 12:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Should singles as a main artist and singles as a featured artist be separated into two different tables (like Lady Gaga discography) or should they be merged together in one single table (like Justin Timberlake discography)? Decodet ( talk) 22:14, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
As the "ignore all rules" section states, "Every artist is different, and therefore no two discographies will be exactly the same." To say that "main" and "featured" singles should be separated in a style guide would be outrageous; it should be discussed in individual cases. It is completely one sided to say "always separate" because it's "common practice at most FLs for discographies", especially when this style guide specifically goes against such a statement. — Statυs ( talk, contribs) 15:48, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
Support...Two different tables for improved clarity as stated by Quiddity & Lil_℧niquℇ №1. The proposal at this Project page shows the singles table only has featured artists when they are not the same as the artist discog page artist. Please, REVISE the proposal to show that when the discog page artist is featured let these show in a table designed for their featured appearances.— Iknow23 ( talk) 03:36, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
As a general rule of thumb, separate, but it will depend on the discography. Tables with one entry should be avoided. Adabow ( talk) 03:46, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
I am certainly open to discussing exceptions. For example, I'd say Fergie is one, as she's only released one studio album herself, so separating them doesn't call for much need. — Statυs ( talk, contribs) 14:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Hi there,
How many countries is the standard for discographies? I can see some with eleven countries like Mariah Carey singles discography. I can see that some discographies like Alexis Jordan discography for instance uses XYZ countries to show album success and than different countries for singles. Is that right? Szaboci ( talk) 11:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Can we please revisit this topic? I tried to bring it up here but it kinda fizzled out. I hate seeing these in discographies — they're unofficial, they're only used to hype up an album release, but there seems to be no clean consensus about whether they should be kept in discographies. Supposedly at one point the style guideline said "no" but now it doesn't? Anyone? - eo ( talk) 20:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
==Mixtapes==
- Mixtape 1 (2007)
- Mixtape 2 (2008)
Mixtape 2 (2009)
not sufficient instead of the tables. --
Lil_℧niquℇ №1 |
talk2me 20:38, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
←The problem I have here is that a notable mixtape is the exception, not the norm. 99% of the ones I see in discographies are unofficial and unsupported by any label. It's also very difficult to discern which ones are "OK" (for lack of a better term) and which ones aren't. Mixtapes may help the careers of some R&B/Hip-hop artists, but who is to decide whether Artist A's mixtapes are more notable than Artist B's? I see a bunch of random titles thrown into discographies, and worse, articles created for mixtapes that assert no notability whatsoever. In the prior conversation about mixtapes, User:JohnFromPinckney had a great comment and I'll quote it here because it pretty much sums things up: "A mixtape would have to be pretty damned notable to be written about in what I'd call reliable sources. For me, it has as much to do with verifiability as notability. What I see ... is a bunch of names being plunked down under the heading "Mixtapes", invariably unreferenced, but when there is a reference, it goes to some hip-hop blog or hot-rapper-gossip-scene-download-and-listen-NOW site. In that sense, mixtapes represent some list of random strings of words alleged to comprise a title." - eo ( talk) 22:53, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps WP:NMUSIC needs updating with specific clarity for mixtapes? -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 | talk2me 21:59, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
While I've got my hammer and chisel in my hands, ready to enshrine our well-reasoned consensus into a clear form on the Style page, I thought I'd put in whatever we decided about mixtapes. Since the topic still appears a bit murky to me, I'd like to write out my proposed changes here first, to avoid what I expect would be extra edits, reversions, disarray, etc., on the main page. First, then, here's my assessment of our results:
{{
Citation needed}}
, using the date=
parameter, and after a month or two we can delete still-unreferenced mixtapes without remorse.)Please note your satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the above assessment and register your response to the questions. — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 08:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Okay, so I haven't worked up any change proposals yet. When I do, they'll be here. OTOH, maybe I'm waiting for your comments above... When I've got some assurance about what we want (and I have time), I'll start on figuring out what needs changing to suit our consensus. — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 08:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Please note your satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the above draft edits. — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 08:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
The style guidelines say not to bold the title, yet MOS:BOLDTITLE encourages the bolding of simple descriptions. Most of the project's articles open with "discography of (artist)", so per the MOS, wouldn't that be bolded as a simple description? Now granted, not every discography opens that way, but this is in regards to those that do. – Chase ( talk / contribs) 00:15, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
As an FLC regular, the indefinite "proposed" status of this page is quite frustrating, as I see numerous discography editors quoting it almost as policy. Can music editors please decide once and for all whether or not this "guideline" has consensus, so that the rest of the Wikipedia community does not have to be kept guessing? Dabomb87 ( talk) 13:49, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Well, here's one of the problems I still have with Wikipedia. After learning how to edit, preview, revert, contact individual editors, use templates, and lots more, I still am not clear on how to get a consensus on some non-trivial topic such that nobody will come along and say, "but we didn't know". What billboards do these invitations have to be plastered across to satisfy everybody (and still get some results before we die), and how am I supposed to know which ones they are? — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 16:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi. In this guideline, table captions are way too verbose. They are supposed to be simple and efficient. I asked advice to an expert recently, and he said that "making a table caption is just as obvious as making section headers: it's exactly the same thing. In fact, so similar that it's instinctive, and lots of Wikipedia users have been doing it successfully for years relying on their instinct alone".
"List of singles, with selected chart positions and certifications, showing year released and album name" is way too long. It was written thinking too hard about what a blind user might expect, believing that there is a significant difference between they way an average user and a blind person use a table. Truth is, there is not that much of a difference, at least not when the table is accessible. Instead, simply imagine that there is no section header before the table, and that the user jump on the table without reading what was written above. The user wants a table caption, onyl to know quickly what the table is about. If the table caption is too long, it doesn't play its role efficiently. There are lots of possibilities. But you don't want to have a table caption that would take longer to read than figuring out the content of the table all by yourself. Here is a few possibilities:
Those would be fine, it's not that complicated. Repeating the headers in the caption is redundant for blind users. If they want the main column headers read aloud, they can ask their screen reader to do so easily since the table is structured with scope="col/row". They simply want an efficient table header, no less and no more.
In cases where the table is hard to understand visually for sighted users too, table captions may become slightly more descriptive to fit the needs. But again it's trivial, and you'll know it yourself when the table caption is not descriptive enough or instead not concise enough. Yours, Dodoïste ( talk) 01:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
When the new style was implemented, several discogs such as Kesha discography and Kelly Rowland discography, as well as Fantasia Barrino discography used sortable music video tables. They are used now on the current FLC Chris Brown discography and an editor has brought up why. Can someone comment on the matter or explain?
Is it LAW that to put a certification up on somebodies discography the country the certification is from must also have chart positions shown? I understand why this makes sense if the album/single in question has MANY certifications but what if there are just a few? I've noticed that most discographies usually have 6 certifications max per album and that they are usually countries that have the chart positions up too which is awsome but for albums/singles with say 5 certifications total doesn't it make more sense to put them all up than leave a few off just because the chart positions arn't shown on the discography page? E.G Adele discography where her new album "21" has been certified in the UK, Germany, Canada, Belgium and New Zealand but the albums Belgian position isn't shown, doesn't it make more sense to put the certification up until there are 6 certifications from countries that have positions shown which can replace it? Sorry if i'm rambling but it frustrates me because as a fan of certain singers/bands i'd rather see some certifications than none. -- Duphin ( talk) 00:51, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
i know quite a long time ago discography articles used to include album cover images, and these were all removed at least 2yrs ago. recently have had another user trying to add an album cover image to an FL discography. i have been removing it, being called a vandal and don't know what i'm talking about. have things changed, are they now allowed? opinions please? thanks. Mister sparky ( talk) 14:49, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Record charts/RFC has been relatively unattended, and I would like to hear more voices.— Kww( talk) 18:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Is this actually still being discussed as a possible guideline? I see no evidence anywhere of that being the case, and if that's correct, can we please remove the tag? It seems to be causing some confusion for some editors. The Rambling Man ( talk) 07:26, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Please be aware that the manual of style regards the use of deliberately forcing smaller text as inappropriate. I see the use of html tags in your examples here, such as <small> which I suppose does not necessarily meet with the expectations of MOS. The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:29, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
<small>
markup to be too small, and would prefer markup (if these are to be made somewhat smaller than normal) like <span style="font-size:85%;"></span>
, with the size at 90% (as with country col headings and legend footer) or 85% (as in the "featuring Ricky Nelson" example) at the lower limit. —
JohnFromPinckney (
talk) 23:14, 1 October 2011 (UTC)Perhaps I'm being dense, but albums table given here has a "sales" column (along with certification) but the singles table doesn't. Why the inconsistency? The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:34, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
Just a query really, why do you intend to "rowspan" the album (for multiple singles from a particular album) but you don't "rowspan" the year of release for singles released in a single year? Have you consulted anyone commensurate with WP:ACCESS about any of this? The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:36, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
I think this should also include "or was not released in that territory" as "releases that did not chart" implies a release actually happened in every territory in the table. It should be also be noted that for a "release" that didn't chart in any territory, it must be individually referenced as the chart references will clearly not cover them. The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:32, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
There's often some debate over the correct abbreviations to use for a particular country's chart. This guide should state how this is done. For instance, is Germany GER or DEU, is Denmark DEN or DAN? The Netherlands NDL or NLD? Where do editors go to find the right answer? The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:38, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
I personally think that as long as it is consistent throughout the article, it doesn't matter which type is used. — Status { talk contribs 11:25, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm glad people are looking at this page again, and I hope it will end up being looked at and discussed by many more than just The Rambling Man.
In the comments above this section right now, I see a repeated concern about the two samples on the actual project page. The upper table is a sample of albums listings, and the lower table is a sample of singles listings. They are naturally different, not least because they are examples of (what we want to call "preferred") ways to list two different kinds of recordings. Further, they are deliberately taken from two different articles. However, it seems that these differences are causing confusion about how to do discography tables and, worse, may also be undermining trust in the page as a possible guideline for discog editors.
Each table is meant to be just one single example of what that kind of table should look like. Actual column widths should depend on the particular discog the tables are on (see my attempts at explanation in Consensus above). Whether a sales column appears in either table (or both, or neither) depends on the particular discog and the sourced info available. Whether Finland's peaks are used depend on decisions about the individual discog, and is not dependent on the fact that both sample tables happen to have FIN columns.
Do you have suggestions about how we can better explain the variability of these samples, or is the whole concept of the page ill-devised? We could go into detail about column and row heading markup and point to MOS:DTT, for example. The gist of the page is supposed to be what comes before the samples; the samples help (AFAIAC) provide examples of layout and markup which can be copied and adapted individually. There's also the IAR section at the end, which should encourage editors to select and arrange columns as best suited to the individual artist's works. Perhaps that part needs rewording, or relocation? — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 23:01, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
This guide claims one thing, but many other discographies are structured in different ways. An example are the country music artists. I don't understand why the sub-genre chart is posted before the main chart in their page. Furthermore, the countries of the peak chart positions, aren't never in alphabetical order after the country where the artist is born. For the albums table, i support this guide, also if would be better to switch the order of the colum of the certifications and sales and in the column of the sales, to explain when the sale posted is refered to retail sales or shipment sales based on certifications. For the singles table, same thing and add that the year would be posted before the name of the single. Furthermore, i propose that for the artists with great impact that have got many and many certifications and/or many albums charted in several countries, in addition to standard page, would be good to creat also two pages of deepening: one for the peak chart positions and one for the certifications and sales, like happens in the Elvis Presley discography, or Michael Jackson discography. After all, we should offer as much information as possible. This is an encyclopedia, no? SJ ( talk) 03:22, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I've just noticed today in reviewing a discog, that the three-letter abbreviations used for charts are also used for certification bodies. This is confusing. I am not aware of anywhere else that would use the same three-letter abbreviations for two different things. I understand they are linked and I understand they're in different columns in the table, I just think it a little strange, particularly when (in the case of the K-Ci & JoJo discography) SWE in the releases means Sverigetopplistan, a distinctly Swedish entity, but the SWE in certifications stands for International Federation of the Phonographic Industry which is an international organisation. Indeed, in the Katy Perry discography, AUT, GER and SWI all link to the same body (IFPI). While it's clear to the Discog community, this is potentially very unclear to the rest of the reading public. The Rambling Man ( talk) 14:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Rough example used from Jennifer Lopez discography:
Certifications |
---|
ABC order or same order as chart positions? — Status { talk contribs 21:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
I've officially applied this to Jennifer Lopez discography. What do you guys think? — Status { talk contribs 23:43, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
That's true, people will probably just say they don't know it because it's different. I say we go ahead and change it. I think the headings should always go to the chart. I'll comment on the chart abbreviations later. — Status { talk contribs 11:17, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
We've made this change in, what, four discographies now? I'm happy with it, but it looks strange and wrong to people (especially those not watching this discussion, which is about 7 billion people), and they tend to revert to protect/repair the article. This happens especially when the trendy editor making this fashionable change fails to include an edit summary *ahem* mentioning even a trial of a discussion on the Talk page of a "failed proposal", much less "per MoS/discographies".
I'd like to at least incorporate the consensus above into the WP:DISCOGSTYLE page so that, official style guide or not, it can be pointed to in edit summaries and (more) people will begin noticing the change. But how to go about it? I think we might need to provide a full list of providers with links, in alpha order as we like them, so editors can just copy the work. I guess in the Per-release section's #8 I'll add a note of explanation about alpha order by provider (following home country's provider), with a pointer to the example list. What do you think? — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 17:52, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
John, good job. One thing struck me. If the Russian certification agency doesn't even have an article, is it actually notable enough for inclusion? The Rambling Man ( talk) 15:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm looking at Canada to come up with a recommendation for a certs abbreviation. Currently, certs come from Music Canada, but they were called CRIA until quite recently. A note from Status earlier in this section suggests we use "CRIA" for older certs, "MC" for awards since the name change. I'd really like to avoid this, because it's harder to explain and we then need to know the exact date of the name change (July 8, 2011? July 7?) as well as the date of each award. I'll go with consensus, though.
I see by the way, that Jennifer Lopez discography uses CRIA throughout (awards from 2001–06) and K-Ci & JoJo discography uses MC even for old works like Love Always (1998). How important is it that we use two abbreviations for Canada? There were apparently the CRMA before 1972, BTW. — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 01:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, I've just updated the page to show abbreviated providers rather than countries in the certs columns of the sample tables. I also added a big section on what to list for certifications, and how to link and order the provider abbreviations. I'm afraid this will be too long for many, but I wanted to provide clear descriptions. I think this is especially important since it is a bit different to what editors are used to.
The table of providers is by country, kind of, but initially ordered by provider. I did it this way so that it's easy to see the order the certs for any given recording should be in. Of course, all of the columns are sortable, so users should have no trouble finding the country or determining display order.
The table has 26 countries, out of about 56 possibilities. If someone needs to add an Argentinian cert (because their artist is South American and she's huge in Argentina), then they can probably go to the List of music recording certifications mentioned after the table and determine that CAPIF is what should be added. If you think there are still too many countries in that table, please say so here and we can decide which to cut; I figured it's easier to remove them than add them.
I left Canada as CRIA, although I'm agreeable to changing it (I might convince myself to change it to MC anyway). I've used IFPI DEN, although I'd prefer IFPI DNK in keeping with ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 country codes (Switzerland's not "right" that way, either). I also added a few other notes to try and clarify the samples and their purpose. I have not done anything about sales figures or any abbreviations there yet.
As usual, comments welcome. — JohnFromPinckney ( talk) 13:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Given the fact we now see old hits (e.g. Elvis, The Beatles, The Goo Goo Dolls, Rage Against The Macine) getting truly significant hits, should we actually ensure that sales figures for singles and albums have an "as of" date associated with them? The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Excuse me if this was already addressed. The guidelines says "Certifications for countries whose peaks are not shown should also be left out of the per-release listing, per WP:INDISCRIMINATE." How about IFPI Europe certifications? Is any chart in Europe enough to include it? Is the European Top 100 Albums required? I'm asking since it seems that by not specifying this, the guideline leaves a gap open, and I think IFPI certifications are in many cases preferable to many smaller county certifications. -- Muhandes ( talk) 12:27, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
I don't support this at all, things were fine the way they were country abbreviations are just fine for indicating association providers and it doesn't make much of a difference. I think we should leave the country abbreviations to give people a better idea of which country an album or a single is certified in, like how would people know that UK = BPI or AUS = ARIA, it will just make things more confusing and over detailed. Hometown Kid ( talk) 15:20, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
i also disagree with the certification abbreviation changes. you are correct that probably 95% of editors will know what they mean, but this isn't about editors. the average joe visiting a page will not have a clue. much simpler and less confusing to just have the country. why is there a need to change it at all. alot of thigs are being proposed to change lately and nobody can seem to agree. plus there's no way of "enforcing" any changes as it's just a failed proposal, because there isn't any agreement. Mister sparky ( talk) 17:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
None of this addresses the fundamental issue that you should not use the same abbreviation to represent different entities. No matter what you think, this is confusing. The Rambling Man ( talk) 14:26, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
This guide claims one thing, but many other discographies are structured in different ways. An example are the country music artists. I don't understand why the sub-genre chart is posted before the main chart in their page. Furthermore, the countries of the peak chart positions, aren't never in alphabetical order after the country where the artist is born. For the albums table, i support this guide ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Discographies/style&oldid=455789028 ), also if would be better to switch the order of the colum of the certifications and sales and in the column of the sales, to explain when the sale posted is refered to retail sales or shipment sales based on certifications. For the singles table, same thing and add that the year would be posted before the name of the single. Furthermore, i propose that for the artists with great impact that have got many and many certifications and/or many albums charted in several countries, in addition to standard page, would be good to creat also two pages of deepening: one for the peak chart positions and one for the certifications and sales, like happens in the Elvis Presley discography, or Michael Jackson discography. After all, we should offer as much information as possible. This is an encyclopedia, no? SJ ( talk) 16:51, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree 100 percent with Hometown Kid. The average person would have no idea what those abbreviations mean. And although I do like what Michael Jester has done to the discography pages for the most part, I have to disagree on this change. HAving the country (US, CAN, UK, etc.) is just so much more simpler than having RIAA, CRIA, BPI. Again, we have to remember that its not only about us, the users, but about the billions around the world that use Wikipedia as a source. Live and Die 4 Hip Hop ( talk) 15:29, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Just wish to reiterate that we should not use the same abbreviation on the same page to mean two completely different things. That's fundamental (and dare I say obvious). The Rambling Man ( talk) 10:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Honestly, i am VERY confused about this. I see no point whatsoever to this, Wikipedia is not about being "professional", it's about being an easy-to-understand place for everything the average Joe & Jane can use and easily understand. The point raised about the "US, UK, AUS" system being confusing is absolutely ridiculous, especially when saying that "RIAA, BPI, ARIA" is easier to understand. I'd just like to know what is the point, because this is a big change that is stirring up a lot.-- 124.169.154.69 ( talk) 14:03, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Ringtones are part of discographies for all artists, and are added to records sold. So you must include it in discographies. Silencio faz bem ( talk) 00:33, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
At the moment, the guideline is not to put bootlegs in an artist's discography. I've added a few articles on bootlegs recently, and while most are not notable, a handful, such as Elvis' Greatest Shit, Golden Eggs and The Dark Side of the Moo do have enough coverage in reliable sources to have articles (IMHO). I'd be inclined to modify "no bootlegs" to "no bootlegs, unless the bootleg passes WP:GNG and can have its own article". What do others think? -- Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:07, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
How do we define a 'single' in this post-physical day and age? Is it any song from an album released in advance of the album's release? Is it any song from an alabum that has a music video produced for it? Is it any song from an album that seems to be notably pushed forward in some promotional way (like being offered up for a remix competition or somesuch?) Wetdogmeat ( talk) 16:03, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I was recently looking at artist discographies, and saw that when a song charted on bubbling under, it was put as 1xx (for example 116 for US or US R&B). While I used to think this was right, the recent revamp of billboard charts tells me otherwise. For instance the the R&B/Hip-Hop chart is now 50 positions, so there is no way that bubbling under is in the 100s. Plus a number of songs in the 51-100 portion of the chart last week fell off this week as a result of the new methodology, and aren't represented at all, whereas songs that were on the bubbling under 100 last week are still bubbling under the top 50 this week. For example, the R&B Songs chart takes the top R&B songs from the R&B Hip-Hop chart. Ciara's "Sorry" is at 20, on that chart, but just misses the mark for the top fifty on R&B/Hip-Hop, but is not represented. Instead, it still has to keep its peak of 75 from last week. Rihannas "Cockiness" on the other hand is 25 on R&B and 7, on bubbling under, but in no way can it be put at 57, when its definattely not. Plus it can't be at 107 as there is no positions 51-100. So, I think a note can be made about bubbling under R&B in discographies, but it should not be in columns (see Chris Brown discography, others). The same should go for bubbling under hot 100 as well, as if billboard reduced hot 100 to 50, all 1xx would not make sense either. Thoughts?-- 138.238.233.1 ( talk) 01:36, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I recently created the page Marcella Detroit discography page, but I'm not sure about what to do regarding two releases (Button Fly Blues and The Upside of Being Down) which she did with her band - the Marcy Levy Band. The band is not notable enough to have an article of their own. Right now the releases are placed under "With Marcy Levy Band" sub-section, but I'm not sure if this is how it should be done correctly. I know I could also place them under "Collaborative studio albums" and so on, the problem with that is it opens the way for her work with Shakespears Sister, who were more successful than she was in her solo career.-- Meluvseveryone ( talk) 08:51, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Compilation albums that are selections by the artist, all containing songs by other artists are not to be included in the discography page. Am I right? Raykyogrou0 ( Talk) 12:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Should singles as a main artist and singles as a featured artist be separated into two different tables (like Lady Gaga discography) or should they be merged together in one single table (like Justin Timberlake discography)? Decodet ( talk) 22:14, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
As the "ignore all rules" section states, "Every artist is different, and therefore no two discographies will be exactly the same." To say that "main" and "featured" singles should be separated in a style guide would be outrageous; it should be discussed in individual cases. It is completely one sided to say "always separate" because it's "common practice at most FLs for discographies", especially when this style guide specifically goes against such a statement. — Statυs ( talk, contribs) 15:48, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
Support...Two different tables for improved clarity as stated by Quiddity & Lil_℧niquℇ №1. The proposal at this Project page shows the singles table only has featured artists when they are not the same as the artist discog page artist. Please, REVISE the proposal to show that when the discog page artist is featured let these show in a table designed for their featured appearances.— Iknow23 ( talk) 03:36, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
As a general rule of thumb, separate, but it will depend on the discography. Tables with one entry should be avoided. Adabow ( talk) 03:46, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
I am certainly open to discussing exceptions. For example, I'd say Fergie is one, as she's only released one studio album herself, so separating them doesn't call for much need. — Statυs ( talk, contribs) 14:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Hi there,
How many countries is the standard for discographies? I can see some with eleven countries like Mariah Carey singles discography. I can see that some discographies like Alexis Jordan discography for instance uses XYZ countries to show album success and than different countries for singles. Is that right? Szaboci ( talk) 11:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)