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First of all, I want to stress : This is not the Deletionist Cabal. That's down the hall, to the right.
Secondly, and seriously, I created this project because I feel right now Wikipedia has three problems. The first is that POV is increasingly beginning to affect deletion efforts. There is increased deletion of pro / anti articles on everything from alleged massacres and torture allegations to abortion to political figures and 9/11 conspiracies. Several administrators have been stripped of their power, and dozens of long-standing users and editors have left the project forever. POV has the potential to truly make deletion a cabal, and we cannot allow that to happen.
There are other problems, and unfortunately, no one is trying to fix them. There is too much reliance on civility, and gentle consensus, and passing around the buck, to be bold. No one is asking WHY these problems exist.
I will list the outline of my thinking out, and I would like feedback from anyone who wants to do so. Please state your thoughts in a sectioning started with "thoughts by User" .
Thanks, TheronJ 21:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I applaud the creation of this project and like the statement of purpose quote from Heller, but I'd like to see the goals section beefed up to be more deletionist rather than merely about deletion (which is what it comes across to me at the moment). While I understand the disinclination to be antagnostic with Wikipedia:WikiProject_Inclusion (though I would note that Wikiproject Inclusion is very vocal about its apparently outright opposition to exclusionism and deletionism), I don't see the need for WikiProject Deletionism's goals to worry about inclusionist sensitivities too much. Goal No.2 could be part of Wikiproject Inclusion, for instance: "To review the outcomes of WP:AfD for inappropiate deletions to more correctly identify articles that should and should not be nominated.". But this statement implies that incorrect deletions/nominations are the key problem - surely incorrectly undeleted articles (due to keep/no consensus/reluctance to nominate/restoration through DRV) are just as big or even bigger problem?. More on this theme, later. Bwithh 17:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mingo ambient musician - I nominated this a while back and there's one proper vote so far and a whole load of socks. Honest opinions, please - yeah or nay, I do not wish to votestack. Thank you. Moreschi 18:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I have one that is sitting alone in the corner as well, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Associated Student Bodies. It's a NN and amateur furry comic book with no sources. The only people that care enough to vote on it are...furries. NeoFreak 13:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
This wikiproject (at least that vote section) undermines afds reason. It used to be vfd (votes for deletion), it was changed to afd for a reason. -- Cat out 20:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm hugely disturbed by the messages about the AfD process being put out by this page. Seriously, votes on XfD discussions are never counted on a "points" scale, and admins only very rarely use the vote count method. Wikipedia breathes consensus, and the "checking" process encouraged by this page completely undermines this. Comments are invaluable, and should always be taken into account, and a Strong delete bears no extra weight than a weak delete - it's the arguement behind the opinion which matter to the closing admin. Also, the page suggests that a "merge and delete" should have taken place on a page. Unfortunately, in most cases, such an action is illegal (in real life), as it violates the GDFL. Delete and merge is never a viable deletion opinion - when I'm closing an XfD and see a string of such opinions, I'll honestly ignore the delete bit and instead initiate a merge and redirect, with a sternly placed message about the GDFL in my closing summary. Consensus has to be fairly clear on wikipedia debates, and most debates, in the absence of consensus, default to keep (no votes in some discussions default to delete ( TFD, IFD and CFD)), thus the "Keep (no consensus)" close by Shanel in the example cited on the page is perfectly correct, as there were hugely varying opinions on the discussion page. What the votes actually were makes no difference at all in their value to the closing admin! M a rtinp23 20:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
all it's going to do is to inflame passions. User:Zoe| (talk) 22:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
For those interested, I've just created this. Yeah, I know its just a badge and a category, but hopefully it will encourage more people to do this kind of patrol. You get less frequent hits (needs a bit more clickwork... on the other hand, you're not "competing" with other editors over the same small number of recent/new pages) that need tagging or fixing or nomination for afd than new pages/recent pages patrol but you do usually dig up pages which are old and obscure or fell through the cracks in the new page patrol net.
See Wikipedia:Random_page_patrol Bwithh 02:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I'm late to the party, and this is old news but for those who don't have it already, I really recommend installing the monobook script recommended at the top of the page here. I just found that when I was digging around creating the Random Page Patrol thingy. Its got way more features than the ordinary popups I was using before Bwithh 02:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Heck, I'm as deletionist as they come ... I may not be overly active about it on the article side, but I really don't like having kazillions of articles about every two-word phrase that has ever been uttered twice in human history and I don't like having articles about every garage band that has ever put out a CD or mentioned by a local beat writer in need of a story. But really ... this kind of thing isn't a great idea. We're here to improve an encyclopedia, not advocate WikiPolitical objectives. Clean up an article. Tag an unused image for deletion. But do we really need something like this? BigDT 22:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
This is yet another effort to institutionalize conflict and to make conflict resoultion into a process of personal attack against perceived ideological foes. It is an effort, albeit ignorant and unintended, to drive off cooperative editors while recruiting and retaining conflict-oriented editors.
Purgeusdhs
16:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This project was likely started by a sockpuppet of User:MONGO who identified himself within the Wikipedia namespace as an agent of the US Dept. of Homeland Security. The project is primarily a front to develop mechanisms for removal of articles objectionable to such government propagandists. Purgeusdhs 16:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The associations over at Meta are one thing, but we should really avoid editors calling other editors "deletionists" and "inclusionists". Wikipedia:AfD Patrol is explicitly neutral when it comes to those two appellations, largely avoiding mention of either one, and that is a good thing. Part of this Wikiproject, the part that deals with encouraging all editors to base their rationales (in whichever direction) upon our policies and guidelines, appears to have the same aim as AFD Patrol. And the "Whenever possible, FIX. Whenever possible, SOURCE. Whenever possible, FIND THE NOTABILITY." recommendation is also a practice that we need more of (cf. WP:OSTRICH). But the name-calling in both the project's page name and much of the project page's text is a bad idea. Uncle G 17:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not the single purpose account (please run a check user if you're really suspicious) which tried to modify this :
"We don't have time to waste on unencyclopedic social nitwitery such as governance councils, charters, or elections. There is no leader. Any Wikipedian in good standing is welcome. WE have no positions. We don't have notice boards, and we don't have barnstars. (FFS, giving out barnstars for deleting articles would get us tarred and feathered.)"
Besides the point that Uncle G made about labelling (which I'm still thinking about), the page tries a lot to avoid being confrontational, so why is this particular bit about organization not so sensitive? ("time to waste", "social nitwitery such as governance councils, charters, or elections. There is no leader.", "WE have no positions", "We don't have barnstars."). Is it because its not directly related to the deletion issue which we're trying to be sensitive about? In any case, it seems rather off-topic to me, especially when its unnecessarily strongly-worded. Incidentally, there's already a nicknamed "deletionist" barnstar that has been nicknamed so since March 2005 [1] (though its more to do with the cutting down of articles - but that's a very important aspect too) , and I don't think we should make the assumption on the front page that deletionism is a dirty word/scandalous concept ("tarred and feathered"). Maybe it is for some people, but we shouldn't emphasize this Bwithh 18:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The project name has now been changed to "Wikiproject Deletion" (fine by me) but the Userbox still reads "Wikiproject Deletionism". It's in Elaragirl's user space, so I don't want to change it unilaterally myself... Bwithh 06:13, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Herm, whats this? Bwithh 08:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
This project should be deleted. --Grace Note.
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 18:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, everyone! I don't suppose anyone's got any reliable sources that support the notability of a metasearch engine called Gokita? I'm probably going to AFD this within the next few days if nothing is found. I can't find anything on my own - certainly google is telling me nothing - but I'm not the world's greatest google searcher, so I would appreciate some help. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion!
I haven't been posting much, or getting things moving, but I should, probably by the middle of the month. I'm interested in everyone's ideas so far.
Also, thanks to Editor-at-Large and Gracenotes for fixing up the front page a bit. :) -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 21:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Die, articles! Die! I salute you, my deletionist friends. Rintrah 08:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Welcome! Nice to have you with us. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 10:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering about the thinking behind
-- Why should we recuse ourselves? What is meant by "highly controversial"?
-- I think I agree with the general gist of community discussion... but don't forget core policies ultimately overrule consensus or even community discussion in itself (e.g. this recent example )
-- Well, yes, that's great - I personally always try to do this before nominating, unless its a nonsense article or something. I also always inform the article creator about an afd nomination discussion. Both practices should be encouraged (a minority do the former, and an even smaller minority does the latter) as generally good deletion nomination practice.
But don't forget that this is a much more cautious approach then the one advocated by core non-negotiable policy WP:V which states that at the same time that the burden of evidence is on the editor who creates or adds content to produce sources and assert notability (and not on the remover or deletor), ideally we should all be "aggressive" (Jimbo's terms) in removing unsourced content.
I would suggest softening the "If there is truly nothing there, then and only then..." to "If nothing comes up with a reasonable search for references, then...."
Bwithh 08:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
As far as being aggressive goes, I really don't like the way Jimbo puts some things. It takes me five minutes to do a quick Google search. If Jimbo is saying that "No, don't take the five minutes, if you don't see a source delete the fucking thing" then I quit NOW. An encyclopedia isn't a joke, and increasingly it seems like the people at the top of Wikipedia aren't bothering to realize what some of their actions look like to use poor old editors.
If I nom an article , it's because it's a sourceless piece of badly written crap, without the potential to be expanded and with no notability and little if any verifiability. When I vote to delete, I try to hold myself to that same standard. If I can find a source, I should source it. Saying it's on the inclusionists to do it is a nice ideal ,but worthless. Inclusionists don't even know how to WRITE articles, from what I've seen, they just write stubs and expect someone else to come along and source them, copyedit them, clean them, and cat them. (sigh) -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 09:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
To me, before we haul it off to be killed, we should make sure it needs to be killed. Many of these "neglected AfDs" are of articles that could be sourced and made good, but simply don't draw the interest of inclusionists. More to the point, once it's undeleted the only people who CAN see it are admins...and that limits the likelyhood that it will be brought back once it's dead. Out of sight, out of mind, after all. -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 09:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Cork GAA honours just consists of award names and years listed for each. Should I prod this? Rintrah 16:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
G'day, everyone. I've been reading these pages with some interest - I think the group itself is a great idea, and I was tempted to sign up, but I share some of Uncle G's concerns. Elaragirl goes to great pains to make it clear that this is not a Deletionist cabal, and that Inclusionists are welcome - full credit to her. But if you were an Inclusionist, found a project called "WikiProject Deletion", and saw ongoing discussions regarding what pages to nominate for deletion, what would you think? Would Inclusionists join a "deletion" project just to give it balance? Would Deletionists join an "inclusion" project just to give it balance? (To be clear, I have no interest in joining a group that advocates inclusion or deletion, all I'm interested in here is the process itself.)
I noticed Wikipedia:AfD Patrol sitting around. It was apparently founded solely to spread awareness of existing policy. Just one problem - no-one bothered to join it. You've got a fair few people here already. Why not hijack it? Or make a new XfD group? At least it'd be consistent.
Who watches recent changes?
Wikipedia:Recent changes patrol.
Who watches new pages?
Wikipedia:New pages patrol.
Who watches XfD discussions?
Wikipedia:XfD patrol.
Give it the same logo as all of them - make it clear that it behaves in exactly the same fashion.
There's a reason you don't call NPP New pages deletion, or call police officers "arrestors". Sure, a lot of their work involves deleting things or arresting people, respectively, but labelling them that way implies a systemic bias towards that course of action, when in reality they both have a wide range of options to choose from. Also, it's not the job of these patrols to argue the benefits of responsible deletion, or campaign for policy change. They're simply there to ensure that existing policies are implemented.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see a group that looks for dodgy pages to be deleted, and advocates the benefits of "responsible deletion". But such a group should be totally independent of the XfD patrol. Imagine a structure with these three groups:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion - finds encyclopedia pages to nominate for deletion, advocates benefits of responsible deletion
Wikipedia:XfD Patrol - only patrols XfD pages, and ensures that current policies are upheld. Provides a neutral forum to discuss XfD issues, but the group itself is absolutely neutral on the delete/include question.
Wikipedia:WikiProject Inclusion - finds AfD'd pages to keep, advocates benefits of responsible inclusion
There's no reason why someone couldn't be a member of both XfD Patrol and Deletion. Indeed, I'd encourage it. But with this three group approach, the XfD Patrol would provide a "neutral ground" for Inclusionists and Deletionists to discuss XfD issues. The XfD Patrol is also more likely to get a good mix of both groups. Quack 688 00:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
It's a good idea. Are you going to get working on it? :D -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 00:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure about this one: Dafydd Stephens, It seems like a vanity page. Rintrah 13:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
DGG 04:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Any thoughts on this [2]?A TfD was closed with "no consensus: keep", even though 13 editors argued delete with 5 in favour of keep (also note: one of the latter gave no argument whatsoever). This is not a headcount, but the few keep arguments were not very cogent. The deletion is now up for review. See, in particular, Coelacan's analysis of the previous debate [3]. -- Folantin 09:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Mm... I don't know. That one looks very tricky.-- Elar a girl Talk| Count 22:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone seems to think that this project unjustly targeted his/her article for deletion in a hostile way. I find the suggestion dubious, but just wanted to bring the case to the attention of the project talk page. The allegation may be baseless or not - or there may be another situation e.g. someone mentioning this project in some way and the comment being misinterpreted. I'll look further into this. Here's the relevant quote:
"I also feel that WikiProject Deletion or Deletionism caused a rush on the process which was unnecessary. This intentional project can be hostile to developing entries and it make me uncomfortable as a learning wiki-editor and I'll go on record saying that. Brokendoor 03:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)"
here's the link to the discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_January_21
Bwithh 03:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The Erie Pub fails the all-important Google test. All that supports the case for notability is that it was visited by a couple of Presidents [4] and King (Larry King?) said it was important [5]. What do you think? Delete? Rintrah 14:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey, don't look at me. I'm a busy fellow these days: Orfeo ed Euridice for GA, List of important operas for FL, and eventually Agrippina for FA. But someone should fix it. Any volunteers? Moreschi Deletion! 17:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and the google test is not important, though it can help. You need to read WP:ILIKEIT for that one. Moreschi Deletion! 17:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
A couple days back, I reviewed some December deletion statistics. They may be of interest to this group. (Original posting was on Wikipedia talk:Deletion review.)
I just did some quick analysis of December deletion statistics. Deletion log entries are for all spaces (article, talk, User, Image, etc...)
GRBerry 14:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Most things that go to AfD are slain. My rougher calculations indicated that about one half of one percent were overturned...your numbers are significantly lower and worry me even more.
Articles that survive 1 AfD are usually able to survive a second. However, articles that have more than 3 AfD's always eventually die. -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 16:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Aren't there too many articles that consist of a single sentence about some town, then two sentences on its location and size, and finally one long, boring paragraph on the demographics; an example is Sharon (CDP), Massachusetts. It is as if they are all written by a computer program. If I were overlord of wikipedia, I would kill every one of them.
Is there anything we can about these horrible articles? I often encounter them in my random-page rambles. Rintrah 08:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Some of the comments on admins above seem a bit harsh. As a CSD patroller, sometimes you find the CSDs coming in faster than they can be deleted by the admins currently on patrol, even doing nothing else and using autocomplete deletion reasons. You can either skip the difficult ones and whack the junk, or get further submerged in the tide. Jimfbleak. talk. 09:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
First of all, I want to stress : This is not the Deletionist Cabal. That's down the hall, to the right.
Secondly, and seriously, I created this project because I feel right now Wikipedia has three problems. The first is that POV is increasingly beginning to affect deletion efforts. There is increased deletion of pro / anti articles on everything from alleged massacres and torture allegations to abortion to political figures and 9/11 conspiracies. Several administrators have been stripped of their power, and dozens of long-standing users and editors have left the project forever. POV has the potential to truly make deletion a cabal, and we cannot allow that to happen.
There are other problems, and unfortunately, no one is trying to fix them. There is too much reliance on civility, and gentle consensus, and passing around the buck, to be bold. No one is asking WHY these problems exist.
I will list the outline of my thinking out, and I would like feedback from anyone who wants to do so. Please state your thoughts in a sectioning started with "thoughts by User" .
Thanks, TheronJ 21:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I applaud the creation of this project and like the statement of purpose quote from Heller, but I'd like to see the goals section beefed up to be more deletionist rather than merely about deletion (which is what it comes across to me at the moment). While I understand the disinclination to be antagnostic with Wikipedia:WikiProject_Inclusion (though I would note that Wikiproject Inclusion is very vocal about its apparently outright opposition to exclusionism and deletionism), I don't see the need for WikiProject Deletionism's goals to worry about inclusionist sensitivities too much. Goal No.2 could be part of Wikiproject Inclusion, for instance: "To review the outcomes of WP:AfD for inappropiate deletions to more correctly identify articles that should and should not be nominated.". But this statement implies that incorrect deletions/nominations are the key problem - surely incorrectly undeleted articles (due to keep/no consensus/reluctance to nominate/restoration through DRV) are just as big or even bigger problem?. More on this theme, later. Bwithh 17:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mingo ambient musician - I nominated this a while back and there's one proper vote so far and a whole load of socks. Honest opinions, please - yeah or nay, I do not wish to votestack. Thank you. Moreschi 18:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I have one that is sitting alone in the corner as well, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Associated Student Bodies. It's a NN and amateur furry comic book with no sources. The only people that care enough to vote on it are...furries. NeoFreak 13:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
This wikiproject (at least that vote section) undermines afds reason. It used to be vfd (votes for deletion), it was changed to afd for a reason. -- Cat out 20:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm hugely disturbed by the messages about the AfD process being put out by this page. Seriously, votes on XfD discussions are never counted on a "points" scale, and admins only very rarely use the vote count method. Wikipedia breathes consensus, and the "checking" process encouraged by this page completely undermines this. Comments are invaluable, and should always be taken into account, and a Strong delete bears no extra weight than a weak delete - it's the arguement behind the opinion which matter to the closing admin. Also, the page suggests that a "merge and delete" should have taken place on a page. Unfortunately, in most cases, such an action is illegal (in real life), as it violates the GDFL. Delete and merge is never a viable deletion opinion - when I'm closing an XfD and see a string of such opinions, I'll honestly ignore the delete bit and instead initiate a merge and redirect, with a sternly placed message about the GDFL in my closing summary. Consensus has to be fairly clear on wikipedia debates, and most debates, in the absence of consensus, default to keep (no votes in some discussions default to delete ( TFD, IFD and CFD)), thus the "Keep (no consensus)" close by Shanel in the example cited on the page is perfectly correct, as there were hugely varying opinions on the discussion page. What the votes actually were makes no difference at all in their value to the closing admin! M a rtinp23 20:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
all it's going to do is to inflame passions. User:Zoe| (talk) 22:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
For those interested, I've just created this. Yeah, I know its just a badge and a category, but hopefully it will encourage more people to do this kind of patrol. You get less frequent hits (needs a bit more clickwork... on the other hand, you're not "competing" with other editors over the same small number of recent/new pages) that need tagging or fixing or nomination for afd than new pages/recent pages patrol but you do usually dig up pages which are old and obscure or fell through the cracks in the new page patrol net.
See Wikipedia:Random_page_patrol Bwithh 02:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I'm late to the party, and this is old news but for those who don't have it already, I really recommend installing the monobook script recommended at the top of the page here. I just found that when I was digging around creating the Random Page Patrol thingy. Its got way more features than the ordinary popups I was using before Bwithh 02:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Heck, I'm as deletionist as they come ... I may not be overly active about it on the article side, but I really don't like having kazillions of articles about every two-word phrase that has ever been uttered twice in human history and I don't like having articles about every garage band that has ever put out a CD or mentioned by a local beat writer in need of a story. But really ... this kind of thing isn't a great idea. We're here to improve an encyclopedia, not advocate WikiPolitical objectives. Clean up an article. Tag an unused image for deletion. But do we really need something like this? BigDT 22:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
This is yet another effort to institutionalize conflict and to make conflict resoultion into a process of personal attack against perceived ideological foes. It is an effort, albeit ignorant and unintended, to drive off cooperative editors while recruiting and retaining conflict-oriented editors.
Purgeusdhs
16:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This project was likely started by a sockpuppet of User:MONGO who identified himself within the Wikipedia namespace as an agent of the US Dept. of Homeland Security. The project is primarily a front to develop mechanisms for removal of articles objectionable to such government propagandists. Purgeusdhs 16:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The associations over at Meta are one thing, but we should really avoid editors calling other editors "deletionists" and "inclusionists". Wikipedia:AfD Patrol is explicitly neutral when it comes to those two appellations, largely avoiding mention of either one, and that is a good thing. Part of this Wikiproject, the part that deals with encouraging all editors to base their rationales (in whichever direction) upon our policies and guidelines, appears to have the same aim as AFD Patrol. And the "Whenever possible, FIX. Whenever possible, SOURCE. Whenever possible, FIND THE NOTABILITY." recommendation is also a practice that we need more of (cf. WP:OSTRICH). But the name-calling in both the project's page name and much of the project page's text is a bad idea. Uncle G 17:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not the single purpose account (please run a check user if you're really suspicious) which tried to modify this :
"We don't have time to waste on unencyclopedic social nitwitery such as governance councils, charters, or elections. There is no leader. Any Wikipedian in good standing is welcome. WE have no positions. We don't have notice boards, and we don't have barnstars. (FFS, giving out barnstars for deleting articles would get us tarred and feathered.)"
Besides the point that Uncle G made about labelling (which I'm still thinking about), the page tries a lot to avoid being confrontational, so why is this particular bit about organization not so sensitive? ("time to waste", "social nitwitery such as governance councils, charters, or elections. There is no leader.", "WE have no positions", "We don't have barnstars."). Is it because its not directly related to the deletion issue which we're trying to be sensitive about? In any case, it seems rather off-topic to me, especially when its unnecessarily strongly-worded. Incidentally, there's already a nicknamed "deletionist" barnstar that has been nicknamed so since March 2005 [1] (though its more to do with the cutting down of articles - but that's a very important aspect too) , and I don't think we should make the assumption on the front page that deletionism is a dirty word/scandalous concept ("tarred and feathered"). Maybe it is for some people, but we shouldn't emphasize this Bwithh 18:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The project name has now been changed to "Wikiproject Deletion" (fine by me) but the Userbox still reads "Wikiproject Deletionism". It's in Elaragirl's user space, so I don't want to change it unilaterally myself... Bwithh 06:13, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Herm, whats this? Bwithh 08:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
This project should be deleted. --Grace Note.
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 18:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, everyone! I don't suppose anyone's got any reliable sources that support the notability of a metasearch engine called Gokita? I'm probably going to AFD this within the next few days if nothing is found. I can't find anything on my own - certainly google is telling me nothing - but I'm not the world's greatest google searcher, so I would appreciate some help. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion!
I haven't been posting much, or getting things moving, but I should, probably by the middle of the month. I'm interested in everyone's ideas so far.
Also, thanks to Editor-at-Large and Gracenotes for fixing up the front page a bit. :) -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 21:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Die, articles! Die! I salute you, my deletionist friends. Rintrah 08:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Welcome! Nice to have you with us. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 10:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering about the thinking behind
-- Why should we recuse ourselves? What is meant by "highly controversial"?
-- I think I agree with the general gist of community discussion... but don't forget core policies ultimately overrule consensus or even community discussion in itself (e.g. this recent example )
-- Well, yes, that's great - I personally always try to do this before nominating, unless its a nonsense article or something. I also always inform the article creator about an afd nomination discussion. Both practices should be encouraged (a minority do the former, and an even smaller minority does the latter) as generally good deletion nomination practice.
But don't forget that this is a much more cautious approach then the one advocated by core non-negotiable policy WP:V which states that at the same time that the burden of evidence is on the editor who creates or adds content to produce sources and assert notability (and not on the remover or deletor), ideally we should all be "aggressive" (Jimbo's terms) in removing unsourced content.
I would suggest softening the "If there is truly nothing there, then and only then..." to "If nothing comes up with a reasonable search for references, then...."
Bwithh 08:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
As far as being aggressive goes, I really don't like the way Jimbo puts some things. It takes me five minutes to do a quick Google search. If Jimbo is saying that "No, don't take the five minutes, if you don't see a source delete the fucking thing" then I quit NOW. An encyclopedia isn't a joke, and increasingly it seems like the people at the top of Wikipedia aren't bothering to realize what some of their actions look like to use poor old editors.
If I nom an article , it's because it's a sourceless piece of badly written crap, without the potential to be expanded and with no notability and little if any verifiability. When I vote to delete, I try to hold myself to that same standard. If I can find a source, I should source it. Saying it's on the inclusionists to do it is a nice ideal ,but worthless. Inclusionists don't even know how to WRITE articles, from what I've seen, they just write stubs and expect someone else to come along and source them, copyedit them, clean them, and cat them. (sigh) -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 09:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
To me, before we haul it off to be killed, we should make sure it needs to be killed. Many of these "neglected AfDs" are of articles that could be sourced and made good, but simply don't draw the interest of inclusionists. More to the point, once it's undeleted the only people who CAN see it are admins...and that limits the likelyhood that it will be brought back once it's dead. Out of sight, out of mind, after all. -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 09:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Cork GAA honours just consists of award names and years listed for each. Should I prod this? Rintrah 16:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
G'day, everyone. I've been reading these pages with some interest - I think the group itself is a great idea, and I was tempted to sign up, but I share some of Uncle G's concerns. Elaragirl goes to great pains to make it clear that this is not a Deletionist cabal, and that Inclusionists are welcome - full credit to her. But if you were an Inclusionist, found a project called "WikiProject Deletion", and saw ongoing discussions regarding what pages to nominate for deletion, what would you think? Would Inclusionists join a "deletion" project just to give it balance? Would Deletionists join an "inclusion" project just to give it balance? (To be clear, I have no interest in joining a group that advocates inclusion or deletion, all I'm interested in here is the process itself.)
I noticed Wikipedia:AfD Patrol sitting around. It was apparently founded solely to spread awareness of existing policy. Just one problem - no-one bothered to join it. You've got a fair few people here already. Why not hijack it? Or make a new XfD group? At least it'd be consistent.
Who watches recent changes?
Wikipedia:Recent changes patrol.
Who watches new pages?
Wikipedia:New pages patrol.
Who watches XfD discussions?
Wikipedia:XfD patrol.
Give it the same logo as all of them - make it clear that it behaves in exactly the same fashion.
There's a reason you don't call NPP New pages deletion, or call police officers "arrestors". Sure, a lot of their work involves deleting things or arresting people, respectively, but labelling them that way implies a systemic bias towards that course of action, when in reality they both have a wide range of options to choose from. Also, it's not the job of these patrols to argue the benefits of responsible deletion, or campaign for policy change. They're simply there to ensure that existing policies are implemented.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see a group that looks for dodgy pages to be deleted, and advocates the benefits of "responsible deletion". But such a group should be totally independent of the XfD patrol. Imagine a structure with these three groups:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion - finds encyclopedia pages to nominate for deletion, advocates benefits of responsible deletion
Wikipedia:XfD Patrol - only patrols XfD pages, and ensures that current policies are upheld. Provides a neutral forum to discuss XfD issues, but the group itself is absolutely neutral on the delete/include question.
Wikipedia:WikiProject Inclusion - finds AfD'd pages to keep, advocates benefits of responsible inclusion
There's no reason why someone couldn't be a member of both XfD Patrol and Deletion. Indeed, I'd encourage it. But with this three group approach, the XfD Patrol would provide a "neutral ground" for Inclusionists and Deletionists to discuss XfD issues. The XfD Patrol is also more likely to get a good mix of both groups. Quack 688 00:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
It's a good idea. Are you going to get working on it? :D -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 00:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure about this one: Dafydd Stephens, It seems like a vanity page. Rintrah 13:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
DGG 04:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Any thoughts on this [2]?A TfD was closed with "no consensus: keep", even though 13 editors argued delete with 5 in favour of keep (also note: one of the latter gave no argument whatsoever). This is not a headcount, but the few keep arguments were not very cogent. The deletion is now up for review. See, in particular, Coelacan's analysis of the previous debate [3]. -- Folantin 09:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Mm... I don't know. That one looks very tricky.-- Elar a girl Talk| Count 22:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone seems to think that this project unjustly targeted his/her article for deletion in a hostile way. I find the suggestion dubious, but just wanted to bring the case to the attention of the project talk page. The allegation may be baseless or not - or there may be another situation e.g. someone mentioning this project in some way and the comment being misinterpreted. I'll look further into this. Here's the relevant quote:
"I also feel that WikiProject Deletion or Deletionism caused a rush on the process which was unnecessary. This intentional project can be hostile to developing entries and it make me uncomfortable as a learning wiki-editor and I'll go on record saying that. Brokendoor 03:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)"
here's the link to the discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_January_21
Bwithh 03:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The Erie Pub fails the all-important Google test. All that supports the case for notability is that it was visited by a couple of Presidents [4] and King (Larry King?) said it was important [5]. What do you think? Delete? Rintrah 14:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey, don't look at me. I'm a busy fellow these days: Orfeo ed Euridice for GA, List of important operas for FL, and eventually Agrippina for FA. But someone should fix it. Any volunteers? Moreschi Deletion! 17:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and the google test is not important, though it can help. You need to read WP:ILIKEIT for that one. Moreschi Deletion! 17:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
A couple days back, I reviewed some December deletion statistics. They may be of interest to this group. (Original posting was on Wikipedia talk:Deletion review.)
I just did some quick analysis of December deletion statistics. Deletion log entries are for all spaces (article, talk, User, Image, etc...)
GRBerry 14:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Most things that go to AfD are slain. My rougher calculations indicated that about one half of one percent were overturned...your numbers are significantly lower and worry me even more.
Articles that survive 1 AfD are usually able to survive a second. However, articles that have more than 3 AfD's always eventually die. -- Elar a girl Talk| Count 16:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Aren't there too many articles that consist of a single sentence about some town, then two sentences on its location and size, and finally one long, boring paragraph on the demographics; an example is Sharon (CDP), Massachusetts. It is as if they are all written by a computer program. If I were overlord of wikipedia, I would kill every one of them.
Is there anything we can about these horrible articles? I often encounter them in my random-page rambles. Rintrah 08:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Some of the comments on admins above seem a bit harsh. As a CSD patroller, sometimes you find the CSDs coming in faster than they can be deleted by the admins currently on patrol, even doing nothing else and using autocomplete deletion reasons. You can either skip the difficult ones and whack the junk, or get further submerged in the tide. Jimfbleak. talk. 09:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)