![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 |
I have nominated the article as a good article candidate. I would be thankful to anybody who who helped in the good article review (See: Wikipedia:Good article candidates If you have not contributed significantly to this article, feel free to evaluate it according to the good article criteria and then pass or fail the article as outlined on the candidates page. -- Garrondo 13:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Don't ask me what got into me, but I've been trying to improve the conspiracy-theory-run-amok that is our OPV AIDS hypothesis article. Anyone else feel like taking a look to see what they think so far? MastCell Talk 16:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Armenian Medical Network is a site with health content and health news. Some is of reasonable quality, but in essence it has the same problems as all other websites (wrongdiagnosis, emedtv, webmd) that we have been trying to root out. It also strikes me as odd that Armenia should need a website in English; could it be that having "health" in the URL is a nice way to get $$$bucks from Google ads? JFW | T@lk 10:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure about the Americans, but guidelines from the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence in the UK tend to be regarded as highly authoritative and often the "final word" on major issues. I usually reference to them quite a lot, and therefore I have created Template:NICE (with 3 parameters) to generate automatic references.
I think every medical page where a guideline exists should at least have a URL linking to the relevant guideline. This is the list in question. Before I go about with this spamming effort, is anyone opposed to this approach? JFW | T@lk 15:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I added the entry on Dr. Todd Wider to the articles for delete bin if anyone would like to chime in. I have no idea who he is, but I'm trying to quash the flourishing industry of wikipedia as a new marketing avenue for people in my field of plastic surgery when they come to my attention. There's nothing notable about Dr. Wider in the context of Plastic Surgery. Dr. Wider's name can be found on google in context of some movie production credits, but the wiki biography criteria would suggest mere catalogs of such credits without any other sources outling his role or some notable contribution would make these not really noteworthy. Anyone else?
I also AFD Frans Noorman van der Dussen's bio page, who is another not particularly notable surgeon from europe. He's one of the transgender group's pet projects, but there is no way to justify his notability in my mind.
Droliver 03:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Also noted is Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cure_for_diabetes_mellitus_type_1 David Ruben Talk 00:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Prior to nominating the Anabolic steroid article for FA status, I wanted to post the article here to get some more input on the article. The article is in great shape and the flow and neutrality are also very good, however I am concerned that we might be missing some things. I wanted some knowledgeable people to look at the article and make some suggestions concerning what should be added. For instance any other positive effects or side effects related to steroid use that the article might have missed. Please don't make drastic changes to the article as we've tried really hard to carve it out, but I do want some suggestions posted on the talk page of the article so that we can discuss them prior to making said changes. Please be sure to provide reliable citations with all suggestions for additions to the article. Pubmed is best as it's easy to format and include in the article. Just post a new post on the talk page of the article and make suggestions on what the article might be missing and should be included. Thanks. Wikidudeman (talk) 14:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Can someone E-mail these PDF's to me? I don't have access to them but if anyone here is using a university computer or such and has access to the full PDF's, Please mail them to me. They are:
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
[7]
[8]
Thanks. Wikidudeman (talk) 15:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Naacats has been pushing his agenda that smoking is not as harmful as claimed, and than only minority of doctors [9] subscribe to the pharmaceutical company driven campaign to outlaw smoking (thus promoting anti-smoking products), which governments and health organisations have succumbed to accepting. See debate at Talk:Smoking. Then look at developing article of Smokers Rights where amongst other points it is apparently an international effort (vs article's originally stated American effort) to restrict the rights of Americans. Could do with a few others confirming it ain't just "the consensus of a few politically motivated organizations" (response to anti-smoking being the view of most UK doctors, BMA & even the WHO).
I recently altered a section heading in Melatonin from "Dangerous Side Effects" to "Adverse effects", as I find the former inherently POV and unnecessarily sensationalistic. I was then reverted by GodGnipael ( talk · contribs), who had added the section last month (and added to it just before I changed the heading). I left him a message regarding NPOV and providing reasoning for my change. He responded "The potential injury done to the human body due to this supplement may be permanent and is thus much more severe than indicated by the term 'Adverse'." I wrote to him again, saying that this isn't the role of Wikipedia ( it isn't). He then left me the following message:
Thanks for your response. I think that we have come to an important philosophical/ethical conundrum, which is medical in nature and may directly involve the health and safety of the general public. I was doing research several months ago. At that time, Wikipedia had such a gushy and positive article about melatonin (it appeared to be written by supplement suppliers), with no mention of the potential dangerous effects that can occur. I agree with you that most articles such as Income Taxes or Abe Lincoln should fall into the general guidelines you sent me. However, I think that if there are peer reviewed scientific studies that have found dangerous side effects, they need to be expressed as such.
I know you are an administrator, and I am wondering if you might talk to other administrators that have faced this medical/medication/supplement situation before. I personally think that if there is supporting evidence of harm or potential danger, then that information is not opinion or biased, but an absolute. And the scientifically validated information should be used as an expression of truth that can be used to benefit society, that is what the scientific method is all about.
I would like to state that I have no problem with the content of the "Dangerous Side Effects" section (even though I'm not crazy about the reliance on an animal study for the second subsection). The whole article is biased, and, in true Wikipedia fashion, differently so from section to section.
I'm a big fan of second and third opinions, so I'd like to hear others' take on this. I have left GodGnipael a note saying that NPOV is non-negotiable and all articles must follow it, but it's pretty hard to make that point ( not "make that point", of course) when many articles, including melatonin, seem to so irreparably evade neutrality. Fvasconcellos ( t· c) 01:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the whole "Dangerous Side Effects" that GodGnipael ( talk · contribs) added. I've discussed why on Talk:Melatonin#Dangerous side effects. IMO, none of the text in that section was acceptable on WP. I agree that supplement articles need to be balanced but that is not the way to go about it. Colin° Talk 08:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Can some wikidocs please review the recent edit to Phenobarbital wrt FDA approval. The FDA statement is a better source that those added to the article. There's probably something worth briefly mentioning and the story might not be as simple as indicated. If a UK/European perspective can be added, that would be great. Colin° Talk 22:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
All input here to gain consensus...cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 23:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Today I have copyedited the living daylights out of idiopathic intracranial hypertension. The only part I haven't really touched is the "pathophysiology" section, probably because I couldn't get my head around it. I'm somewhat shocked by the paucity of systematic reviews, meta-analyses and similar studies in this area. Work to do for some keen neurosurgeons? Could y'all have a quick look and see if I've missed anything? JFW | T@lk 11:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
When going through Category:Diseases I noticed large amounts of hopeless cruft, but inner bone pain was the best. It's amazing how these hoaxes can get perpetuated for months without being spotted. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Inner bone pain. JFW | T@lk 20:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
User:Thumperward is trying to remove the shading from navigation boxes. I've encouraged him to discuss the issue with a broader community, but he doesn't seem inclined to do so, so I'd like to use this as an opportunity to see if the users here would like to keep the status quo (colors indicating context) or to go with an all-blue format. -- Arcadian 15:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Please offer your opinions on Talk:Obesity#Interview. JFW | T@lk 15:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Today's Signpost covers the Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history. This WikiProject has a Stress Hotline where editors can express worries about coverage of their area of interest in articles. I tend to report difficult edit wars on medical subjects on this talkpage, but they interfere somewhat with discussions on other subjects. I was thinking of setting up a separate page where contributors can call for assistance without disrupting other discussions. JFW | T@lk 16:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking about the following names:
Users interested in participating (which also means agreeing in principle to responding to calls), please sign below.
A while ago I expressed my surprise that there was no article on this fascinating cerebrovascular disease. I recently encountered this condition again, and was wondering who was available to work on this. When my exam is over (next week) I might tackle it. JFW | T@lk 16:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Despite being the current Pharmacology Collaboration of the Week, the paracetamol article hasn't seen much activity. Would any of our WikiDocs like to help out? Promoted way back in 2004, this was one of our first medical FAs, and has slipped considerably since—surely we should help bring it back into shape? The main concern is a lack of referencing. Thanks, Fvasconcellos ( t· c) 20:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Please comment at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Copyvio_or_no_copyvio. -- Arcadian 22:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
There is a vote to fork myalgic encephalomyelitis from chronic fatigue syndrome. The vote is on Talk:Myalgic encephalomyelitis#Vote. JFW | T@lk 20:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
More pro-Ravnskov editing on lipid hypothesis. I can feel my small dense LDL climbing already. JFW | T@lk 21:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I thought I'd kept a pretty neutral article at statin. Isn't it great how a small group of "skeptics" can displace 1000s of carefully conducted studies? JFW | T@lk 08:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
There seem to be some political shenanigans at postperfusion syndrome (where a claim by the National Enquirer that cognitive deficits from bypass surgery in 1988 somehow explain U.S. Vicepresident Dick Cheney's behavior in 2007, and caused permanent mental defects in President Bill Clinton, is being reinserted). (For those not familiar with it, let's just stipulate that the National Enquirer is a tabloid rag which is more authoritative on the subject of Anna Nicole Smith's love life and alien space invader conspiracies than on current coronary surgical practice.) I wonder if those with expertise on the subject could have a look at the article and make sure that what's there now is medically sound, and that I've removed the politically motivated tripe and trivia. - Nunh-huh 10:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
This article has evolved to being, to my mind, a significant article. It would be useful if any cardiologists of CLINMED were to review it for accuracy and completeness, particularly in the clinically related sections. Geoffrey Wickham 01:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I have nominated the article for featured article after working on it after it become a GA. anybody thinks the article is good enough please vote for it. Any comments for improvement will also be welcomed. Garrondo 14:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Please comment on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ME/CVS Vereniging. A further outgrowth of the recurrent CFS/ME debate that now spans quite a large group of articles. JFW | T@lk 07:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
AS passed FAR a month ago and has been extremely stable since then, yet one editor continues to say the article should be tagged POV. Review welcome. [11] SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Two editors have previously disagreed about usefulness of external links added by the other to Prostatitis. Recent additional external link was for geocites webpage of images of pelvic floor muscles (I'm not quite sure of relevance to article topic) but then removed because that external link recommended the http://www.chronicprostatitis.com link.
Various issues of usefulness of the images and appropriateness of the geocites, link and I have tried to set these out at Talk:Prostatitis#External_link_to_geocities.2Fmyoneuropathy_pelvic_floor_pictures. I would appreciate if a few other editors could add there twopence (~ $0.02) of opinion so a consensus can occur, and so preempt edit warring between just 2 editors, thanks :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidruben ( talk • contribs) 01:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I have done some work on cerebral venous sinus thrombosis after it was kindly started off by Arcadian and Davidruben. There are some good papers out there (especially the EFNS guideline) which helped a lot. Could everyone have a look and advise whether I've left something out? Are there any notable cases that anyone is aware of? JFW | T@lk 17:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I just moved DTPA to pentetic acid (after a minor history merge; pentetic acid is the INN), but the content seemed a clear copy-and-paste. A quick Google search found this CDC factsheet; the info was added back in April. The inappropriate tone and need for a rewrite notwithstanding, my immediate concern is whether or not this is a copyvio. I've always believed CDC content to be in the public domain, but I may be wrong (does happen every now and then ;). Does anyone know more? Thanks, Fvasconcellos ( t· c) 22:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been long-standing concern about the "massive walled garden of autism POV forks" on Wikipedia, including but not limited to uncited and essay-like articles, use of non-reliable sources, POV, questionable notability of some articles, and vanispamcruftisement. What has changed recently is that two core articles— autism and Asperger syndrome—have been solidly restored to featured status, mostly thanks to Eubulides ( talk · contribs), who is now trudging his way through the second-level (daughter) articles prescribed by WP:MEDMOS. There is hope that the walled garden can become an organized set of reliable articles. Frustrated by my own hit-and-miss efforts to help clean up some of the mess, I was encouraged by Jfdwolff and Mastcell to put together a list and mini-assessment of the autism-related articles so that further cleanup efforts can be focused on the most important needs.
The list and assessment is at User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox/autism (please use the associated talk page there to suggest changes/improvements to the table). I sort of followed the assessment scheme used by WP 1.0, but I deviated from their B-class, Start and Stub to reflect core articles needed for WP:MEDMOS coverage and how much attention the articles need to make them "not dangerously wrong or misleading" (or of little encyclopedic value).
I suggested the following priorities to Eubulides:
Eubulides indicated: [12]
So, that is his plan for working through the top articles; as a first priority, help on clearing those and the other articles in boxes Q, R and V to a B-standard or better would be much appreciated. Box X, while not reflecting top articles in terms of importance, is an area in great need of cleanup. Any help appreciated, but a coordinated effort may be more effective. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I have improved Chelation therapy as far as I'm able, and would really appreciate further tweaking, improvement and review. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Check out this interactive clinical case with referenced case discussion I just created on Wikiversity. This is part of the Wikiversity School of Medicine. Everyone is invited to improve this learning module, of course.
-- Steven Fruitsmaak ( Reply) 00:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
JFW puts on trade unionist flat cap, climbs on soapbox holding a megaphone
Guys 'n' gals, if we are ever going to make our present medical content truly encyclopedic, we need to invest more time in WP:MCOTW. Every time I revert vandalism/spam on allergy, and am forced to look at the article, I come out in hives. I nominated it, and I am the first to admit that I didn't exactly jump forward in editing it when it became MCOTW, but neither did anyone else. There's so much rubbish being written about allergies that we really need to improve that article stat. Are there any people with a particular interest in immunology who could help us with the technical details? I'm eager to do some work on food allergies, but not on my own. Any volunteers? Please?
The new article is blood, which was promoted on the 8th by NCurse ( talk · contribs). Since then, it has only received a couple of edits. Do we need to move towards a monthly collaboration?
The audience throws several bedpans (unused and used), and JFW takes refuge. JFW | T@lk 19:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Does the autistic child have a 'theory of mind'? is a summary of one journal article. I'm not sure what to do with it (prod, AfD, redirect to Theory of Mind or redirect to autism)? Copyright and notability issues; does a journal paper attain notability just because it's published? Should we have an article on everything in PubMed ? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I've been expanding primary immunodeficiency, using a consensus document. I've tried my best to locate all the relevant articles on these weird and wonderful conditions, but a few more eyeballs would be useful. It is quite amazing that generally Wikipedia does seem to have articles on most immunology-related subjects, but under somewhat unpredictable names. The molecular and cell biology WikiProject has got it down to a fine art with their protein boxes, which pervade all the relevant pages. But of course our own Arcadian ( talk · contribs) has been doing the same for clinical medicine content, and some editors have been creating short articles on the most unlikely conditions. JFW | T@lk 18:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps our WikiProject, like WP:MCB, needs a person in charge. What are people's feelings about this, and are there any volunteers? JFW | T@lk 18:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
To be frank, we should ask TimVickers ( talk · contribs) what being the director of WP:MCB actually entails. It would be against Wiki spirit to associate directorship with specific powers. At the same time, some WikiProjects need more coordination, and ours is not an exception.
Thinking about it again, I think that most contributors to this project are already very busy with articles they have expertise in, and may avoid the thornier issues somewhat off the beaten track. I'm still concerned that we have still not attracted contributors with an interest in surgery, Ob/Gyn ( Ekem ( talk · contribs) now avoids medical articles, it seems), and some other very relevant areas (e.g. preventative medicine). Psychiatry is an ongoing concern; we now have some people working very hard to turn the walled garden of autism into something that resembles NPOV (SandyGeorgia, Eubulides) and some that chip away at the heavy anti-psychiatry bias on Wikipedia in general.
In the end, we cannot force people to do what they don't want to do (see WP:RAUL, rule 3). It strikes me as more than odd that the large professional societies have still not realised the enormous power of Wikipedia. If they want to inform the public, stop putting "patient summaries" in the medical journals (e.g. JAMA and Ann Intern Med) and instead send these editors to help out on Wikipedia!
When I sat a recent exam, my "ethics" case involved a discussion with a faux relative on the merits of artificial feeding in advanced dementia. The actress was holding a copy of percutaneous endoscopic gastrostomy (which I nota bene started in 2004!) I have seen copies of disseminated intravascular coagulation and acinetobacter lying around various hospital wards. Davidruben ( talk · contribs) was once confronted in a consultation with a patient who had brought a copy of an article (unknowingly) that he had written. WIKIPEDIA IS EVERYWHERE! We might as well make it as good as possible. JFW | T@lk 21:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The appointment of a boss, if desirable, is not the only topic to address urgently. Sadly, I think currently the project provides little more than a meeting place for medically-interested editors to raise concerns or request short-term help. If this project is to be effective, we need reassess our goals, examine the strengths and weaknesses of our members, confront the challenges faced on WP, and work out how best to collaborate. The weekly/fortnightly/monthly collaborations of this and the pharmacy project have FA as their goal, something they have failed to achieve for over two years (and then only twice). I say this not as a criticism of those who organise or (fail to) participate—we are all volunteers and many project members are extremely active in other ways. Here are some more thoughts, randomly thrown together:
That'll do for now :-) Colin° Talk 23:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
So far I see consensus emerging for the following decisions:
On a related topic, would some editors perhaps be interested in going on the record in the medical literature to call for contributors? I am sure that a "Personal View" in the British Medical Journal would attract a significant response. JFW | T@lk 23:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
My €0.02:
On the question of a director, I don't see what the job description would be.-- Steven Fruitsmaak ( Reply) 12:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Colin's thought is very important: " our members tend to be rather busy in real life caring for people (professionally or otherwise). We can't necessarily compare this to other projects and try to emulate their success."
So JFW, you have plenty of soldiers. Deal with it. :) NCurse work 08:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the thought, NCurse, but I am way too often winging it here, as a layperson, and I don't have the grander medical perspective on a lot of the issues. And, a better candidate would be Colin ( talk · contribs), as he has such experience getting WP:MEDMOS and WP:MEDRS off the ground. Which brings me back to the orignal throught I expressed (tried to express) above. Colin is dealing with an issue at WP:MEDRS right now, and getting no input from others <hint>. What I was trying to say earlier is that it's very often (most often?) a layperson who is taking the lead on bringing an article to featured status or raising the standards of the Project (as Colin did with MEDMOS and as I've tried to do by bringing the older medical articles to FAR). A layperson may have the time and the passion and the commitment to a certain article, yet not be able to "bring it over the finish line" without the help of the Project professionals. I was and remain particularly disappointed that lung cancer became featured without Project review. It was promoted because Raul supported it: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lung cancer. Polio was just promoted featured, and many laypersons have collaborated well to produce a truly fine article, but serious medical review from the Project would have been its crowning glory. I have often been mired in horrific debates at FAR overly truly bad articles, and gotten no support from the Medicine projects. Where are our physicians on the articles laypersons are diligently working away on? I have often wondered if the physician hesitance to criticize a peer's work is at play here? Are we really happy with Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Therapies for multiple sclerosis; it was just promoted along with Polio, and I'm not sure the standard is the same. Perhaps less focus on bringing in more medical professionals, and more awareness that laypersons have a large role here but need more help, would be one way to improve more articles across the board? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Coming back to MastCell's comment on WP being a hostile place: Yes, there are parts of WP where life is a constant battle. But there are also areas of calm that are there for the taking. I'm not just talking about rare diseases or obscure drugs. Many core medical subjects get no edits for weeks, and are languishing at B class or lower. Perhaps there's a tendency among virgin wikidocs to join the front line when that path leads to pain and suffering, unless you are thick skinned and stubborn. Coeliac disease gets little hassle, other than from well-meaning folk adding links to gluten-free web sites or requests to "fix" the spelling. A wikidoc helping out on Poliomyelitis during 2007 would have discovered a couple of model wikipedians quietly transforming a fascinating subject. There are plenty other potential FAs that could be worked on with little stress by anyone who cares to research the topic. Colin° Talk 20:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Do we need to post a "merge" template? Certainly, people would need to be informed so they can redirect their watchlists if required. Colin° Talk 21:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Wrt nominations. Sandy's post is flattering but I'm no more medically qualified and just as frequently bluffing may way. The current WP:MEDRS discussion is somewhat caused by mistakes I made a year ago. Sandy is probably the most experienced here (anywhere) wrt knowing what makes an FA and how to fix an article that has fallen. JFW has huge experience creating articles and battling on a number of fronts. Clearly, medical training is an enormous advantage, as is ready access to journals and a good library. Without knowing what this director is supposed to do, it is hard to recommend one person. It may be we need a few roles, each best suited to the strengths of the particular editor. Before we get too advanced wrt nominations, it is probably best to continue discussing detailed goals and what tasks such a person(persons) would supervise and encourage. Colin° Talk 21:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
A good leader here would be someone who is good at helping others reach consensus, rather than wielding a big stick and trying to out-rank others. I see too many editors of medical pages fighting rather than stopping to think about why the fight is happening in the first place. Often, the root cause is a matter of very different POVs combined with insufficient common knowledge of the subject. -- Una Smith ( talk) 18:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I'm going to reverse myself; I think it does matter to which Project we merge. I believe far more article talk pages are tagged with {{ WPMED}} and we also have Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Medicine articles by quality statistics. Unless someone explains differently, I think these are important reasons to merge to Medicine rather than Clinical medicine. We also need to be in a position to enforce WP:MEDMOS for all health articles, not just clinical medicine, [14] so it's important to retain a broad net. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:14, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree in principle on merging medicine related projects, but wondering by doing so, are we going to limit collaboration opportunities? There might be editors interested in either clinical medicine or basic science only. I think we should keep WP:CLINMED and WP:PCM as workgroups. If there is a consensus, I can create workgroup parameter in {{ WPMED}}. It will put the articles in relevant categories and can be watched. I guess there are around 15000 medicine related articles. Around 12000 pages have been tagged so far and 10,000 of them are either in stub class or not been assessed yet. It gives some idea about immensity of work ahead!!! While tagging articles I have noticed that, number of people contributing to individual articles is not necessarily low, but their involvement in project activities is minimal. We need to find new ways of collaboration. I propose creating a page where all active users list up to 5 articles they are currently contributing or going to contribute in a major way. I guess that way we can address issue raised by Steve. One other thing. Amount of resistance and negative comments one have to endure these days is alarmingly high and is indeed inhibiting after a busy day in real life. We should consider JFW's previous suggestion about "on call room". Thanks-- Countincr ( t@lk ) 00:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Merge WPCLINMED into WPMED. -- Una Smith ( talk) 18:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Here follow some suggestions. -- Una Smith ( talk) 18:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I've recently effectively totally deleted the contents of Evans syndrome( this) and Prosper Ménière( this) (he of Menieres disease) as being gross copyvios. I've partly reconstructed Evans syndrome using primary sources located at PubMed (but it now needs rounding off and using perhaps the eMedicine article as a template, something I deliberately decided to avoid initially in order to get the initial sources included - current progress since copyvio removal here). Whereas Prosper Ménière is down to a single paragraph, having removed the copy of Whonamedit entry. Could people have a look at improving these two articles please. David Ruben Talk 04:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Poliomyelitis and Therapies for multiple sclerosis have been promoted to featured article. Rotavirus is now on peer review, so everybody's input is welcome. -- WS ( talk) 23:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
FYI - I have posted elsewhere about the possibility of a dedicated Wikipedia scientific journal proxy: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Academic Journals#A question. Comments welcome there or on the Village Pump. JFW | T@lk 13:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is currently a cross between a marketer's how-to guide and the usual POV-pushing. But I think we can do better. There is a ton of good-quality peer-reviewed sourcing on pharma marketing techniques and their impact. No Free Lunch has a clear stance on the issue, but their website hosts an excellent collection of this material here. I'm thinking about trying to sort through all of these potential sources and fundamentally rewrite the article into something source-based and encyclopedic, but I sense it will be a daunting solo task. Is there any interest in collaborating on the topic? MastCell Talk 19:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Heh. I think being accused of being a GlaxoPfizerLillyBoehringerBristolMerck shill should be an initiation rite for this WikiProject. An unrestricted grant from a drug company to fund a journal proxy would be rather nice though... JFW | T@lk 16:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry things have been rough, but don't let evil tongues dissuade you from doing what you want to do. Because that is exactly what they are trying to achieve: bully sensible people out of the project so they can control the place. The hatred of drug companies on the internet is well-known, but I'd be the last to be apologetic over the real cock-ups. The mess Merck caught itself in with aprotinin will burn an ugly trail through that company, just when Vioxx seems to have cooled down. But at the moment the only companies willing to invest into drug discovery and marketing are... drug companies. Wouldn't it be lovely if there was a model where drug design and drug testing/trialling could be separated? That would remove the continuous cloud that presently hangs over company-sponsored trials. JFW | T@lk 01:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Arcadian: I'm really puzzled here. Are you suggesting researchers will recruit patients and report study results through a system like Wikipedia? I can definitely see this happening, but for the "flowering" you describe we need seedlings. JFW | T@lk 02:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I have posted a proposal on WT:MED with regards to the future of MCOTW. Comments are invited there: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine#MCOTW and open tasks. I've also started merging information from WP:CLINMED into the WP:MED WikiProject page. JFW | T@lk 23:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I'd really like a bit more input into that discussion. I've made a number of proposals, but it seems some of these are unpopular. JFW | T@lk 06:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I wish we had dozens of editors. I'm getting progressively more jealous of the MCB boys, who are churning out one FA after the other :-). JFW | T@lk 12:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
The hip replacement article is in need of an overhaul. It is very ugly from a content perspective and doesn't have one good reference. Considering that this is a very common operation, it ought to be a good article. Nephron T| C 02:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
In the above discussions there was consensus for merging this WikiProject with WP:MED. I suspect that this will mean that the present pages should be archived. Any objections? JFW | T@lk 06:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I will move the old project page to a subpage of WP:MED and turn the page into a redirect. Will do the same with PRECLINMED unless there are objections. JFW | T@lk 15:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the discussion above on a leader/director for the project failed because the role wasn't outlined. The merge and MCOTW issues took greater importance, and the topic got distracted by opinions on what makes a good or bad leader. Some people want to be free agents. Nobody is suggesting that project members come under someone's authority. I see any leadership role as one of responsibility rather than authority or superiority. Some people like to work in a team, and most teams work well if someone is driving things. So, in the new WP:MED, are there areas where a leader or leaders would be useful? For what it is worth, I've always considered JFW the de facto leader of this project.
BTW: If this page is about to be archived, then perhaps we can continue this over on the other project... Colin° Talk 14:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
If we are going to merge the project pages, this might be a good moment to redesign the project page to be more useful. I created a mockup based on the WP:MCB project page which can be found here. Tell me what you think about it. Also feel free to make any changes to it to improve it. -- WS ( talk) 19:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I was wondering if I might get some input on Talk:Abortion-breast cancer hypothesis#CLINMED comments regarding some issues:
Thank you for your time. Phyesalis ( talk) 05:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Argh, Usenet posts! Never! Obviously this is a very difficult article to keep WP:NPOV, but if a perspective has not been circulated beyond Usenet I strongly doubt it is can be included as per WP:FRINGE and WP:WEIGHT. People who continue to promulgate the theory, but only if they are widely publicised to do so. From an encyclopedia's perspective, the NCI's consensus is "just an opinion", but competing opinions need to be notable. Scientific proof is not necessarily encyclopedic proof. Do you need actual input in the discussion? JFW | T@lk 23:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Ekem ( talk · contribs) has done a lot of gynaecology work, but seems to be doing non-medical stuff. JFW | T@lk 10:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been some recent contention on post-abortion syndrome, revolving around how to present the medical literature and expert opinion on this disputed entity as well as appropriate sourcing and framing. If anyone feels intrepid, I'd like to invite outside opinions. The issue is detailed on the article talk page and article history. MastCell Talk 22:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Previously the templates to Professional Template:MerckManual and Home Template:MerckHome editions of the online Merck Manuals were not clearly self identified and one had invalid url coding. Having throughly confused myself in the process (real mess moving rather than opting to more cautiously copy&paste between the two), I think I've got this to work. Orginal 3 required parameters for Section No, Chapter No & Topic letter remain the same, but now additional options of subpages can also be accessed and/or alternative text shown. Details now provided by templates' shared documentation. If you spot anywhere where I've created a URL hell, please let me know :-) David Ruben Talk 03:43, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 |
I have nominated the article as a good article candidate. I would be thankful to anybody who who helped in the good article review (See: Wikipedia:Good article candidates If you have not contributed significantly to this article, feel free to evaluate it according to the good article criteria and then pass or fail the article as outlined on the candidates page. -- Garrondo 13:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Don't ask me what got into me, but I've been trying to improve the conspiracy-theory-run-amok that is our OPV AIDS hypothesis article. Anyone else feel like taking a look to see what they think so far? MastCell Talk 16:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Armenian Medical Network is a site with health content and health news. Some is of reasonable quality, but in essence it has the same problems as all other websites (wrongdiagnosis, emedtv, webmd) that we have been trying to root out. It also strikes me as odd that Armenia should need a website in English; could it be that having "health" in the URL is a nice way to get $$$bucks from Google ads? JFW | T@lk 10:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure about the Americans, but guidelines from the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence in the UK tend to be regarded as highly authoritative and often the "final word" on major issues. I usually reference to them quite a lot, and therefore I have created Template:NICE (with 3 parameters) to generate automatic references.
I think every medical page where a guideline exists should at least have a URL linking to the relevant guideline. This is the list in question. Before I go about with this spamming effort, is anyone opposed to this approach? JFW | T@lk 15:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I added the entry on Dr. Todd Wider to the articles for delete bin if anyone would like to chime in. I have no idea who he is, but I'm trying to quash the flourishing industry of wikipedia as a new marketing avenue for people in my field of plastic surgery when they come to my attention. There's nothing notable about Dr. Wider in the context of Plastic Surgery. Dr. Wider's name can be found on google in context of some movie production credits, but the wiki biography criteria would suggest mere catalogs of such credits without any other sources outling his role or some notable contribution would make these not really noteworthy. Anyone else?
I also AFD Frans Noorman van der Dussen's bio page, who is another not particularly notable surgeon from europe. He's one of the transgender group's pet projects, but there is no way to justify his notability in my mind.
Droliver 03:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Also noted is Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cure_for_diabetes_mellitus_type_1 David Ruben Talk 00:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Prior to nominating the Anabolic steroid article for FA status, I wanted to post the article here to get some more input on the article. The article is in great shape and the flow and neutrality are also very good, however I am concerned that we might be missing some things. I wanted some knowledgeable people to look at the article and make some suggestions concerning what should be added. For instance any other positive effects or side effects related to steroid use that the article might have missed. Please don't make drastic changes to the article as we've tried really hard to carve it out, but I do want some suggestions posted on the talk page of the article so that we can discuss them prior to making said changes. Please be sure to provide reliable citations with all suggestions for additions to the article. Pubmed is best as it's easy to format and include in the article. Just post a new post on the talk page of the article and make suggestions on what the article might be missing and should be included. Thanks. Wikidudeman (talk) 14:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Can someone E-mail these PDF's to me? I don't have access to them but if anyone here is using a university computer or such and has access to the full PDF's, Please mail them to me. They are:
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
[7]
[8]
Thanks. Wikidudeman (talk) 15:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Naacats has been pushing his agenda that smoking is not as harmful as claimed, and than only minority of doctors [9] subscribe to the pharmaceutical company driven campaign to outlaw smoking (thus promoting anti-smoking products), which governments and health organisations have succumbed to accepting. See debate at Talk:Smoking. Then look at developing article of Smokers Rights where amongst other points it is apparently an international effort (vs article's originally stated American effort) to restrict the rights of Americans. Could do with a few others confirming it ain't just "the consensus of a few politically motivated organizations" (response to anti-smoking being the view of most UK doctors, BMA & even the WHO).
I recently altered a section heading in Melatonin from "Dangerous Side Effects" to "Adverse effects", as I find the former inherently POV and unnecessarily sensationalistic. I was then reverted by GodGnipael ( talk · contribs), who had added the section last month (and added to it just before I changed the heading). I left him a message regarding NPOV and providing reasoning for my change. He responded "The potential injury done to the human body due to this supplement may be permanent and is thus much more severe than indicated by the term 'Adverse'." I wrote to him again, saying that this isn't the role of Wikipedia ( it isn't). He then left me the following message:
Thanks for your response. I think that we have come to an important philosophical/ethical conundrum, which is medical in nature and may directly involve the health and safety of the general public. I was doing research several months ago. At that time, Wikipedia had such a gushy and positive article about melatonin (it appeared to be written by supplement suppliers), with no mention of the potential dangerous effects that can occur. I agree with you that most articles such as Income Taxes or Abe Lincoln should fall into the general guidelines you sent me. However, I think that if there are peer reviewed scientific studies that have found dangerous side effects, they need to be expressed as such.
I know you are an administrator, and I am wondering if you might talk to other administrators that have faced this medical/medication/supplement situation before. I personally think that if there is supporting evidence of harm or potential danger, then that information is not opinion or biased, but an absolute. And the scientifically validated information should be used as an expression of truth that can be used to benefit society, that is what the scientific method is all about.
I would like to state that I have no problem with the content of the "Dangerous Side Effects" section (even though I'm not crazy about the reliance on an animal study for the second subsection). The whole article is biased, and, in true Wikipedia fashion, differently so from section to section.
I'm a big fan of second and third opinions, so I'd like to hear others' take on this. I have left GodGnipael a note saying that NPOV is non-negotiable and all articles must follow it, but it's pretty hard to make that point ( not "make that point", of course) when many articles, including melatonin, seem to so irreparably evade neutrality. Fvasconcellos ( t· c) 01:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the whole "Dangerous Side Effects" that GodGnipael ( talk · contribs) added. I've discussed why on Talk:Melatonin#Dangerous side effects. IMO, none of the text in that section was acceptable on WP. I agree that supplement articles need to be balanced but that is not the way to go about it. Colin° Talk 08:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Can some wikidocs please review the recent edit to Phenobarbital wrt FDA approval. The FDA statement is a better source that those added to the article. There's probably something worth briefly mentioning and the story might not be as simple as indicated. If a UK/European perspective can be added, that would be great. Colin° Talk 22:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
All input here to gain consensus...cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 23:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Today I have copyedited the living daylights out of idiopathic intracranial hypertension. The only part I haven't really touched is the "pathophysiology" section, probably because I couldn't get my head around it. I'm somewhat shocked by the paucity of systematic reviews, meta-analyses and similar studies in this area. Work to do for some keen neurosurgeons? Could y'all have a quick look and see if I've missed anything? JFW | T@lk 11:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
When going through Category:Diseases I noticed large amounts of hopeless cruft, but inner bone pain was the best. It's amazing how these hoaxes can get perpetuated for months without being spotted. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Inner bone pain. JFW | T@lk 20:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
User:Thumperward is trying to remove the shading from navigation boxes. I've encouraged him to discuss the issue with a broader community, but he doesn't seem inclined to do so, so I'd like to use this as an opportunity to see if the users here would like to keep the status quo (colors indicating context) or to go with an all-blue format. -- Arcadian 15:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Please offer your opinions on Talk:Obesity#Interview. JFW | T@lk 15:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Today's Signpost covers the Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history. This WikiProject has a Stress Hotline where editors can express worries about coverage of their area of interest in articles. I tend to report difficult edit wars on medical subjects on this talkpage, but they interfere somewhat with discussions on other subjects. I was thinking of setting up a separate page where contributors can call for assistance without disrupting other discussions. JFW | T@lk 16:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking about the following names:
Users interested in participating (which also means agreeing in principle to responding to calls), please sign below.
A while ago I expressed my surprise that there was no article on this fascinating cerebrovascular disease. I recently encountered this condition again, and was wondering who was available to work on this. When my exam is over (next week) I might tackle it. JFW | T@lk 16:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Despite being the current Pharmacology Collaboration of the Week, the paracetamol article hasn't seen much activity. Would any of our WikiDocs like to help out? Promoted way back in 2004, this was one of our first medical FAs, and has slipped considerably since—surely we should help bring it back into shape? The main concern is a lack of referencing. Thanks, Fvasconcellos ( t· c) 20:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Please comment at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Copyvio_or_no_copyvio. -- Arcadian 22:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
There is a vote to fork myalgic encephalomyelitis from chronic fatigue syndrome. The vote is on Talk:Myalgic encephalomyelitis#Vote. JFW | T@lk 20:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
More pro-Ravnskov editing on lipid hypothesis. I can feel my small dense LDL climbing already. JFW | T@lk 21:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I thought I'd kept a pretty neutral article at statin. Isn't it great how a small group of "skeptics" can displace 1000s of carefully conducted studies? JFW | T@lk 08:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
There seem to be some political shenanigans at postperfusion syndrome (where a claim by the National Enquirer that cognitive deficits from bypass surgery in 1988 somehow explain U.S. Vicepresident Dick Cheney's behavior in 2007, and caused permanent mental defects in President Bill Clinton, is being reinserted). (For those not familiar with it, let's just stipulate that the National Enquirer is a tabloid rag which is more authoritative on the subject of Anna Nicole Smith's love life and alien space invader conspiracies than on current coronary surgical practice.) I wonder if those with expertise on the subject could have a look at the article and make sure that what's there now is medically sound, and that I've removed the politically motivated tripe and trivia. - Nunh-huh 10:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
This article has evolved to being, to my mind, a significant article. It would be useful if any cardiologists of CLINMED were to review it for accuracy and completeness, particularly in the clinically related sections. Geoffrey Wickham 01:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I have nominated the article for featured article after working on it after it become a GA. anybody thinks the article is good enough please vote for it. Any comments for improvement will also be welcomed. Garrondo 14:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Please comment on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ME/CVS Vereniging. A further outgrowth of the recurrent CFS/ME debate that now spans quite a large group of articles. JFW | T@lk 07:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
AS passed FAR a month ago and has been extremely stable since then, yet one editor continues to say the article should be tagged POV. Review welcome. [11] SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Two editors have previously disagreed about usefulness of external links added by the other to Prostatitis. Recent additional external link was for geocites webpage of images of pelvic floor muscles (I'm not quite sure of relevance to article topic) but then removed because that external link recommended the http://www.chronicprostatitis.com link.
Various issues of usefulness of the images and appropriateness of the geocites, link and I have tried to set these out at Talk:Prostatitis#External_link_to_geocities.2Fmyoneuropathy_pelvic_floor_pictures. I would appreciate if a few other editors could add there twopence (~ $0.02) of opinion so a consensus can occur, and so preempt edit warring between just 2 editors, thanks :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidruben ( talk • contribs) 01:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I have done some work on cerebral venous sinus thrombosis after it was kindly started off by Arcadian and Davidruben. There are some good papers out there (especially the EFNS guideline) which helped a lot. Could everyone have a look and advise whether I've left something out? Are there any notable cases that anyone is aware of? JFW | T@lk 17:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I just moved DTPA to pentetic acid (after a minor history merge; pentetic acid is the INN), but the content seemed a clear copy-and-paste. A quick Google search found this CDC factsheet; the info was added back in April. The inappropriate tone and need for a rewrite notwithstanding, my immediate concern is whether or not this is a copyvio. I've always believed CDC content to be in the public domain, but I may be wrong (does happen every now and then ;). Does anyone know more? Thanks, Fvasconcellos ( t· c) 22:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been long-standing concern about the "massive walled garden of autism POV forks" on Wikipedia, including but not limited to uncited and essay-like articles, use of non-reliable sources, POV, questionable notability of some articles, and vanispamcruftisement. What has changed recently is that two core articles— autism and Asperger syndrome—have been solidly restored to featured status, mostly thanks to Eubulides ( talk · contribs), who is now trudging his way through the second-level (daughter) articles prescribed by WP:MEDMOS. There is hope that the walled garden can become an organized set of reliable articles. Frustrated by my own hit-and-miss efforts to help clean up some of the mess, I was encouraged by Jfdwolff and Mastcell to put together a list and mini-assessment of the autism-related articles so that further cleanup efforts can be focused on the most important needs.
The list and assessment is at User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox/autism (please use the associated talk page there to suggest changes/improvements to the table). I sort of followed the assessment scheme used by WP 1.0, but I deviated from their B-class, Start and Stub to reflect core articles needed for WP:MEDMOS coverage and how much attention the articles need to make them "not dangerously wrong or misleading" (or of little encyclopedic value).
I suggested the following priorities to Eubulides:
Eubulides indicated: [12]
So, that is his plan for working through the top articles; as a first priority, help on clearing those and the other articles in boxes Q, R and V to a B-standard or better would be much appreciated. Box X, while not reflecting top articles in terms of importance, is an area in great need of cleanup. Any help appreciated, but a coordinated effort may be more effective. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I have improved Chelation therapy as far as I'm able, and would really appreciate further tweaking, improvement and review. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Check out this interactive clinical case with referenced case discussion I just created on Wikiversity. This is part of the Wikiversity School of Medicine. Everyone is invited to improve this learning module, of course.
-- Steven Fruitsmaak ( Reply) 00:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
JFW puts on trade unionist flat cap, climbs on soapbox holding a megaphone
Guys 'n' gals, if we are ever going to make our present medical content truly encyclopedic, we need to invest more time in WP:MCOTW. Every time I revert vandalism/spam on allergy, and am forced to look at the article, I come out in hives. I nominated it, and I am the first to admit that I didn't exactly jump forward in editing it when it became MCOTW, but neither did anyone else. There's so much rubbish being written about allergies that we really need to improve that article stat. Are there any people with a particular interest in immunology who could help us with the technical details? I'm eager to do some work on food allergies, but not on my own. Any volunteers? Please?
The new article is blood, which was promoted on the 8th by NCurse ( talk · contribs). Since then, it has only received a couple of edits. Do we need to move towards a monthly collaboration?
The audience throws several bedpans (unused and used), and JFW takes refuge. JFW | T@lk 19:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Does the autistic child have a 'theory of mind'? is a summary of one journal article. I'm not sure what to do with it (prod, AfD, redirect to Theory of Mind or redirect to autism)? Copyright and notability issues; does a journal paper attain notability just because it's published? Should we have an article on everything in PubMed ? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I've been expanding primary immunodeficiency, using a consensus document. I've tried my best to locate all the relevant articles on these weird and wonderful conditions, but a few more eyeballs would be useful. It is quite amazing that generally Wikipedia does seem to have articles on most immunology-related subjects, but under somewhat unpredictable names. The molecular and cell biology WikiProject has got it down to a fine art with their protein boxes, which pervade all the relevant pages. But of course our own Arcadian ( talk · contribs) has been doing the same for clinical medicine content, and some editors have been creating short articles on the most unlikely conditions. JFW | T@lk 18:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps our WikiProject, like WP:MCB, needs a person in charge. What are people's feelings about this, and are there any volunteers? JFW | T@lk 18:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
To be frank, we should ask TimVickers ( talk · contribs) what being the director of WP:MCB actually entails. It would be against Wiki spirit to associate directorship with specific powers. At the same time, some WikiProjects need more coordination, and ours is not an exception.
Thinking about it again, I think that most contributors to this project are already very busy with articles they have expertise in, and may avoid the thornier issues somewhat off the beaten track. I'm still concerned that we have still not attracted contributors with an interest in surgery, Ob/Gyn ( Ekem ( talk · contribs) now avoids medical articles, it seems), and some other very relevant areas (e.g. preventative medicine). Psychiatry is an ongoing concern; we now have some people working very hard to turn the walled garden of autism into something that resembles NPOV (SandyGeorgia, Eubulides) and some that chip away at the heavy anti-psychiatry bias on Wikipedia in general.
In the end, we cannot force people to do what they don't want to do (see WP:RAUL, rule 3). It strikes me as more than odd that the large professional societies have still not realised the enormous power of Wikipedia. If they want to inform the public, stop putting "patient summaries" in the medical journals (e.g. JAMA and Ann Intern Med) and instead send these editors to help out on Wikipedia!
When I sat a recent exam, my "ethics" case involved a discussion with a faux relative on the merits of artificial feeding in advanced dementia. The actress was holding a copy of percutaneous endoscopic gastrostomy (which I nota bene started in 2004!) I have seen copies of disseminated intravascular coagulation and acinetobacter lying around various hospital wards. Davidruben ( talk · contribs) was once confronted in a consultation with a patient who had brought a copy of an article (unknowingly) that he had written. WIKIPEDIA IS EVERYWHERE! We might as well make it as good as possible. JFW | T@lk 21:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The appointment of a boss, if desirable, is not the only topic to address urgently. Sadly, I think currently the project provides little more than a meeting place for medically-interested editors to raise concerns or request short-term help. If this project is to be effective, we need reassess our goals, examine the strengths and weaknesses of our members, confront the challenges faced on WP, and work out how best to collaborate. The weekly/fortnightly/monthly collaborations of this and the pharmacy project have FA as their goal, something they have failed to achieve for over two years (and then only twice). I say this not as a criticism of those who organise or (fail to) participate—we are all volunteers and many project members are extremely active in other ways. Here are some more thoughts, randomly thrown together:
That'll do for now :-) Colin° Talk 23:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
So far I see consensus emerging for the following decisions:
On a related topic, would some editors perhaps be interested in going on the record in the medical literature to call for contributors? I am sure that a "Personal View" in the British Medical Journal would attract a significant response. JFW | T@lk 23:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
My €0.02:
On the question of a director, I don't see what the job description would be.-- Steven Fruitsmaak ( Reply) 12:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Colin's thought is very important: " our members tend to be rather busy in real life caring for people (professionally or otherwise). We can't necessarily compare this to other projects and try to emulate their success."
So JFW, you have plenty of soldiers. Deal with it. :) NCurse work 08:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the thought, NCurse, but I am way too often winging it here, as a layperson, and I don't have the grander medical perspective on a lot of the issues. And, a better candidate would be Colin ( talk · contribs), as he has such experience getting WP:MEDMOS and WP:MEDRS off the ground. Which brings me back to the orignal throught I expressed (tried to express) above. Colin is dealing with an issue at WP:MEDRS right now, and getting no input from others <hint>. What I was trying to say earlier is that it's very often (most often?) a layperson who is taking the lead on bringing an article to featured status or raising the standards of the Project (as Colin did with MEDMOS and as I've tried to do by bringing the older medical articles to FAR). A layperson may have the time and the passion and the commitment to a certain article, yet not be able to "bring it over the finish line" without the help of the Project professionals. I was and remain particularly disappointed that lung cancer became featured without Project review. It was promoted because Raul supported it: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lung cancer. Polio was just promoted featured, and many laypersons have collaborated well to produce a truly fine article, but serious medical review from the Project would have been its crowning glory. I have often been mired in horrific debates at FAR overly truly bad articles, and gotten no support from the Medicine projects. Where are our physicians on the articles laypersons are diligently working away on? I have often wondered if the physician hesitance to criticize a peer's work is at play here? Are we really happy with Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Therapies for multiple sclerosis; it was just promoted along with Polio, and I'm not sure the standard is the same. Perhaps less focus on bringing in more medical professionals, and more awareness that laypersons have a large role here but need more help, would be one way to improve more articles across the board? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Coming back to MastCell's comment on WP being a hostile place: Yes, there are parts of WP where life is a constant battle. But there are also areas of calm that are there for the taking. I'm not just talking about rare diseases or obscure drugs. Many core medical subjects get no edits for weeks, and are languishing at B class or lower. Perhaps there's a tendency among virgin wikidocs to join the front line when that path leads to pain and suffering, unless you are thick skinned and stubborn. Coeliac disease gets little hassle, other than from well-meaning folk adding links to gluten-free web sites or requests to "fix" the spelling. A wikidoc helping out on Poliomyelitis during 2007 would have discovered a couple of model wikipedians quietly transforming a fascinating subject. There are plenty other potential FAs that could be worked on with little stress by anyone who cares to research the topic. Colin° Talk 20:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Do we need to post a "merge" template? Certainly, people would need to be informed so they can redirect their watchlists if required. Colin° Talk 21:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Wrt nominations. Sandy's post is flattering but I'm no more medically qualified and just as frequently bluffing may way. The current WP:MEDRS discussion is somewhat caused by mistakes I made a year ago. Sandy is probably the most experienced here (anywhere) wrt knowing what makes an FA and how to fix an article that has fallen. JFW has huge experience creating articles and battling on a number of fronts. Clearly, medical training is an enormous advantage, as is ready access to journals and a good library. Without knowing what this director is supposed to do, it is hard to recommend one person. It may be we need a few roles, each best suited to the strengths of the particular editor. Before we get too advanced wrt nominations, it is probably best to continue discussing detailed goals and what tasks such a person(persons) would supervise and encourage. Colin° Talk 21:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
A good leader here would be someone who is good at helping others reach consensus, rather than wielding a big stick and trying to out-rank others. I see too many editors of medical pages fighting rather than stopping to think about why the fight is happening in the first place. Often, the root cause is a matter of very different POVs combined with insufficient common knowledge of the subject. -- Una Smith ( talk) 18:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I'm going to reverse myself; I think it does matter to which Project we merge. I believe far more article talk pages are tagged with {{ WPMED}} and we also have Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Medicine articles by quality statistics. Unless someone explains differently, I think these are important reasons to merge to Medicine rather than Clinical medicine. We also need to be in a position to enforce WP:MEDMOS for all health articles, not just clinical medicine, [14] so it's important to retain a broad net. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:14, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree in principle on merging medicine related projects, but wondering by doing so, are we going to limit collaboration opportunities? There might be editors interested in either clinical medicine or basic science only. I think we should keep WP:CLINMED and WP:PCM as workgroups. If there is a consensus, I can create workgroup parameter in {{ WPMED}}. It will put the articles in relevant categories and can be watched. I guess there are around 15000 medicine related articles. Around 12000 pages have been tagged so far and 10,000 of them are either in stub class or not been assessed yet. It gives some idea about immensity of work ahead!!! While tagging articles I have noticed that, number of people contributing to individual articles is not necessarily low, but their involvement in project activities is minimal. We need to find new ways of collaboration. I propose creating a page where all active users list up to 5 articles they are currently contributing or going to contribute in a major way. I guess that way we can address issue raised by Steve. One other thing. Amount of resistance and negative comments one have to endure these days is alarmingly high and is indeed inhibiting after a busy day in real life. We should consider JFW's previous suggestion about "on call room". Thanks-- Countincr ( t@lk ) 00:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Merge WPCLINMED into WPMED. -- Una Smith ( talk) 18:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Here follow some suggestions. -- Una Smith ( talk) 18:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I've recently effectively totally deleted the contents of Evans syndrome( this) and Prosper Ménière( this) (he of Menieres disease) as being gross copyvios. I've partly reconstructed Evans syndrome using primary sources located at PubMed (but it now needs rounding off and using perhaps the eMedicine article as a template, something I deliberately decided to avoid initially in order to get the initial sources included - current progress since copyvio removal here). Whereas Prosper Ménière is down to a single paragraph, having removed the copy of Whonamedit entry. Could people have a look at improving these two articles please. David Ruben Talk 04:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Poliomyelitis and Therapies for multiple sclerosis have been promoted to featured article. Rotavirus is now on peer review, so everybody's input is welcome. -- WS ( talk) 23:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
FYI - I have posted elsewhere about the possibility of a dedicated Wikipedia scientific journal proxy: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Academic Journals#A question. Comments welcome there or on the Village Pump. JFW | T@lk 13:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is currently a cross between a marketer's how-to guide and the usual POV-pushing. But I think we can do better. There is a ton of good-quality peer-reviewed sourcing on pharma marketing techniques and their impact. No Free Lunch has a clear stance on the issue, but their website hosts an excellent collection of this material here. I'm thinking about trying to sort through all of these potential sources and fundamentally rewrite the article into something source-based and encyclopedic, but I sense it will be a daunting solo task. Is there any interest in collaborating on the topic? MastCell Talk 19:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Heh. I think being accused of being a GlaxoPfizerLillyBoehringerBristolMerck shill should be an initiation rite for this WikiProject. An unrestricted grant from a drug company to fund a journal proxy would be rather nice though... JFW | T@lk 16:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry things have been rough, but don't let evil tongues dissuade you from doing what you want to do. Because that is exactly what they are trying to achieve: bully sensible people out of the project so they can control the place. The hatred of drug companies on the internet is well-known, but I'd be the last to be apologetic over the real cock-ups. The mess Merck caught itself in with aprotinin will burn an ugly trail through that company, just when Vioxx seems to have cooled down. But at the moment the only companies willing to invest into drug discovery and marketing are... drug companies. Wouldn't it be lovely if there was a model where drug design and drug testing/trialling could be separated? That would remove the continuous cloud that presently hangs over company-sponsored trials. JFW | T@lk 01:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Arcadian: I'm really puzzled here. Are you suggesting researchers will recruit patients and report study results through a system like Wikipedia? I can definitely see this happening, but for the "flowering" you describe we need seedlings. JFW | T@lk 02:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I have posted a proposal on WT:MED with regards to the future of MCOTW. Comments are invited there: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine#MCOTW and open tasks. I've also started merging information from WP:CLINMED into the WP:MED WikiProject page. JFW | T@lk 23:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I'd really like a bit more input into that discussion. I've made a number of proposals, but it seems some of these are unpopular. JFW | T@lk 06:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I wish we had dozens of editors. I'm getting progressively more jealous of the MCB boys, who are churning out one FA after the other :-). JFW | T@lk 12:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
The hip replacement article is in need of an overhaul. It is very ugly from a content perspective and doesn't have one good reference. Considering that this is a very common operation, it ought to be a good article. Nephron T| C 02:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
In the above discussions there was consensus for merging this WikiProject with WP:MED. I suspect that this will mean that the present pages should be archived. Any objections? JFW | T@lk 06:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I will move the old project page to a subpage of WP:MED and turn the page into a redirect. Will do the same with PRECLINMED unless there are objections. JFW | T@lk 15:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the discussion above on a leader/director for the project failed because the role wasn't outlined. The merge and MCOTW issues took greater importance, and the topic got distracted by opinions on what makes a good or bad leader. Some people want to be free agents. Nobody is suggesting that project members come under someone's authority. I see any leadership role as one of responsibility rather than authority or superiority. Some people like to work in a team, and most teams work well if someone is driving things. So, in the new WP:MED, are there areas where a leader or leaders would be useful? For what it is worth, I've always considered JFW the de facto leader of this project.
BTW: If this page is about to be archived, then perhaps we can continue this over on the other project... Colin° Talk 14:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
If we are going to merge the project pages, this might be a good moment to redesign the project page to be more useful. I created a mockup based on the WP:MCB project page which can be found here. Tell me what you think about it. Also feel free to make any changes to it to improve it. -- WS ( talk) 19:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I was wondering if I might get some input on Talk:Abortion-breast cancer hypothesis#CLINMED comments regarding some issues:
Thank you for your time. Phyesalis ( talk) 05:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Argh, Usenet posts! Never! Obviously this is a very difficult article to keep WP:NPOV, but if a perspective has not been circulated beyond Usenet I strongly doubt it is can be included as per WP:FRINGE and WP:WEIGHT. People who continue to promulgate the theory, but only if they are widely publicised to do so. From an encyclopedia's perspective, the NCI's consensus is "just an opinion", but competing opinions need to be notable. Scientific proof is not necessarily encyclopedic proof. Do you need actual input in the discussion? JFW | T@lk 23:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Ekem ( talk · contribs) has done a lot of gynaecology work, but seems to be doing non-medical stuff. JFW | T@lk 10:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been some recent contention on post-abortion syndrome, revolving around how to present the medical literature and expert opinion on this disputed entity as well as appropriate sourcing and framing. If anyone feels intrepid, I'd like to invite outside opinions. The issue is detailed on the article talk page and article history. MastCell Talk 22:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Previously the templates to Professional Template:MerckManual and Home Template:MerckHome editions of the online Merck Manuals were not clearly self identified and one had invalid url coding. Having throughly confused myself in the process (real mess moving rather than opting to more cautiously copy&paste between the two), I think I've got this to work. Orginal 3 required parameters for Section No, Chapter No & Topic letter remain the same, but now additional options of subpages can also be accessed and/or alternative text shown. Details now provided by templates' shared documentation. If you spot anywhere where I've created a URL hell, please let me know :-) David Ruben Talk 03:43, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 |