This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 50 | ← | Archive 54 | Archive 55 | Archive 56 | Archive 57 | Archive 58 | → | Archive 60 |
[restored per talk]
A proposal recently emerged that involves restructuring the format and number of pages that relate to Schubert's complete lists of works. As of the moment, we have the following:
List of compositions by Franz Schubert (D 1 - D 500)
/info/en/?search=List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Schubert_%28D_1%E2%80%93D_500%29
List of compositions by Franz Schubert (D 501 - D 998)
/info/en/?search=List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Schubert_%28D_501%E2%80%93D_998%29
List of compositions by Franz Schubert by genre
/info/en/?search=List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Schubert_by_genre
The idea is to combine all three pages into one single page, and convert the current format, a bullet list, into a table. The new page would be titled:
List of compositions by Franz Schubert
(to this moment, the table has been created and edited up to D 46). The proposal can be found at:
/info/en/?search=Talk:List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Schubert
In principle, this would appear to be a good idea. However, these three pages have existed for a decade in this format. They were created in 2004, and my guess would be that they were originally divided in such ways because of the extremely large number of works that form Schubert´s output. On July of this year, all three pages underwent a major editing job. For the two pages listing works in ascending Deutsch numbers, this included adding an introduction and a key to reading the article's contents; adding missing entries and providing additional info. of relevance for all existing and new entries; updating Deutsch nos. formatting in accordance to the Deutsch catalogue; and listing references. For the compositions by genre page, in addition to the aforementioned changes, all works now appear organized in the order established by the Neue Schubert-Ausgabe. The previously existing format, that of bullet lists, was not changed in any of these three pages during this major revision. If some of you have had the chance to visit these pages lately, I hope that you can appreciate that implementing these revisions involved a considerable amount of work. Many hours were devoted over several months with the purpose of improving these pages. This is not to say that the information now present there is completely flawless or that these pages are not perfectible, but I do consider the information they provide to be solid, well documented and properly organized. I also think that the current format is the appropriate one. I find that having two pages that list the items in ascending Deutsch order and another one that lists all works by genre is not a problem at all, as the re-directs between all three articles can be easily accessed.
I would propose to leave the format in these three pages unchanged. If anything, perhaps the two pages that combine all compositions by ascending Deutsch numbers could be merged into one. But in essence, I do not support changing the format to a table or reducing the number of pages for the following reasons:
The advantage of the table is its sortability, but a table for a list like this would occupy an enormous amount of space. The idea behind the bullet lists is to be able to include a good deal of information while keeping the format at a reasonable length. The information for each entry in the bullet lists, in my opinion, does not look crowded, is concise but at the same time provides ample data for each work. Given the number of works in each list, they are all quite long as it is. A table would probably duplicate the size of the article (and we are talking of over 1,000 entries in this case). In addition, given the complexity and variety of information needed to catalogue Schubert's output, there seems like there would be a lot of wasted space. Many works will not have an AGA number, an opus number, a former Deutsch number, or would require additional information to be specified (in a Notes column). The great advantage of the bullet list is that the format allows the information to be presented without compromising the size.
With regard to content, the following is the key for the contents of the bullet list:
The main differences between this and the proposed table would be:
/info/en/?search=Schubert_opus/Deutsch_number_concordance It is true that this article consists of a sortable table, but the main difference here is that the table is much shorter, given the number of works that actually have opus numbers. The table also originated at the same time the article was created, so no major editing job was ever required to convert a previously existing format. In any extent, anybody wishing to see this article could also have access to it through the click of a button, once a re-direct is created.
So, to sum all this up... is it really worth restructuring these articles when this implies a major adjustment - deleting and/or reorganizing information that has just recently been updated, and, in my humble opinion, is adequately presented? I would certainly understand that starting from scratch is necessary for a composer of which very little or no information exists on Wikipedia. But I honestly do not believe this applies to Schubert.
I would sincerely appreciate any support that could be given to keep the bullet lists and these three pages as they currently are.
Solti79 (
talk)
16:30, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that is exactly why there was confusion in this regard. In any case, I would argue that there is no need to "absorb" anything. Why is it appropriate to unilaterally and arbitrarily decide that certain pages need to be removed or their format changed? I find this to be just wrong and unacceptable. People have been continually improving these pages for a long time, and in my view it is extremely disrespectful for one individual to just decide that other editors' work needs to be removed because you think the presentation of the information should appear in a different format. I kindly ask you to consider that these other editors, including myself, have invested a lot of time in these pages, and that what you propose to do goes against anything that would be deemed reasonable and civilized. I know for a fact that if you make your table over the next few months and then somebody decides that it is not necessary to have it and removes it, you would most certainly not approve of this. Well, this is exactly what you are doing to the work of others. As such, I do have a suggestion for you: re-consider your actions- be mindful and respectful of other editors, and leave the pages be as they are. Solti79 ( talk) 15:45, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I've nominated a WP:FA quality page related to this WikiProject for "Today's Featured Article" consideration, nomination is at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/John Barbirolli. — Cirt ( talk) 00:19, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Please voice your opinions about the somewhat delicate subject raised on the talk page of the American quartet, about including or not including the quartet's original nickname. Thanks, -- Ravpapa ( talk) 07:16, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I've re-done the archiving of this talk page, since no reason was given for its partial and broken reversion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:24, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
User TheBawbb ( talk) has raised an interesting issue on the talk page of Francis Schonken regarding the article La Diva de l'Empire, a popular song by Satie. Francis added a claim that the theme of the song is reused by Satie in his piece La belle excentrique. The Bawbb asked that Francis provide a source for this claim.
This raises an issue which we have discussed before, and, in light of the discussion on popular culture above, perhaps deserves to be revisited. When are your eyes and ears a reliable enough source for a statement about music? Here is a typical example: in the article Piano Quintet (Schumann), the article claims that the last movement includes a double fugue, using the main theme of the last movement and the opening theme of the first movement. There is even a little sound clip with explanation, showing this to be the case. No source is given; indeed, when I added this, I looked for a source and couldn't find one. Sources do discuss the cyclical nature of the piece, and the reuse of motifs across movements, but this specific example I couldn't find cited. Perhaps because it is so obvious to the musically trained ear. It is certainly significant, and any tyro can immediately verify its truth.
So do we need a source for this specific claim or not? Is not the score itself a reliable enough source?
The case of La belle excentrique certainly goes to the heart of this issue. Because, listening to it and comparing it to La Diva de l-Empire, I am not at all sure that one is quoting the other. Both tunes are cakewalks, both have little snippets of similarity, but to go so far as to say one is quoting the other is something I wouldn't do without an external source. In the case of the Schumann quintet, I would say the reuse is undeniable, and citing it unsourced is acceptable.
Any opinions? -- Ravpapa ( talk) 05:41, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Not exactly, Mr. Schonken...
The opening movement of La belle excentrique (the "Grande Ritournelle") is a cakewalk. Satie did in fact draw on his old cabaret material for this piece, but it was not "Diva" but the music for an unpublished 1905 song, Légende californienne. In Steven Moore Whiting's "Satie the Bohemian" (Oxford University Press, 1999) he writes on pages 314-315:
I tried to include a PDF link to Olof Höjer's booklet for Vol. 6 of his complete recordings of Satie's piano music, which confirms this info (with bibliography), but it was blocked as being on Wiki's blacklist. Neither Whiting nor Höjer mention any other borrowings of older material in "excentrique".
"Intermezzo américain" is just a new subtitle Satie added for H. Ourdine's 1919 piano transcription of "Diva", pointing out (as the song lyrics did not) that the cakewalk was an American invention.
Now, getting back to Ravpapa's topic, my own ears have never told me that "Diva" was quoted in "excentrique", and if they had I still would not have posted this assumption in a Wiki article without a source or two to confirm it. I guess I'm anal that way, a plodding "just the facts" kinda guy. Besides, any lawyer will tell you (if you push them hard enough) that eyewitness testimony isn't always reliable, and the same goes for "earwitness" testimony...
I agree with Ravpapa that "ear-sourcing" is a complex issue and should be handled on a case-by-case basis. But outside sources can't hurt. TheBawbb ( talk) 08:50, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
The main problem with one's own ears is that it's original research; other sources such as the piece's score are needed. I have perfect pitch yet would not trust myself with inserting such claims. For example, a deaf reader should still be able to verify such claims.-- Jasper Deng (talk) 18:52, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Of course, I agree completely with Jasper. That's why I wrote (in the text) "ears and eyes". There are certainly statements of fact that we can make relying on our reading of the score alone - for example, that the second movement of a piece is in the dominant, or that the the second violin plays in 2/4 time while the first violin plays in 6/8. But where to we draw the line? Smerus suggests there is no line - that you can't say a piece is a waltz without a source. But I find that many sources - especially academic sources that assume a much higher level of musical training in their readers than we assume here - are often elliptical and leave out obvious things (like the second theme is in the dominant) that we would want to include in our articles. Can we cite the score as a reliable source? -- Ravpapa ( talk) 04:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Ravpapa, careful about setting up a straw man to support your case. I did not claim that "you can't say a piece is a waltz without a source". But as you have raised the issue, I wouldn't need my ears to make such a claim. In many cases, the composer will have called his piece a waltz. or marked the piece 'tempo di valse' or suchlike. Or I could write "the piece, which is in triple time and at a moderate tempo, has the characteristics of a waltz". What I shouldn't write is "the piece sounds like a waltz to me".-- Smerus ( talk) 09:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
@ Kosboot and Ravpapa: A propos, the article waltz (music) is presently grotesquely inadequate. Smerus ( talk) 17:19, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Smerus is (as usual) right. Let's stop shmoozing and get back to work! -- Ravpapa ( talk) 07:09, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
I just noticed Julie Giroux, which has style and sourcing issues. I did some minor cleanup, but it could use some more work by someone who edits composer articles more than I do. Also, I removed the information about her Emmy win, because it was sourced to IMDB and made it sound like it was a personal win, instead of as part of a team. That should probably be revisited, because I'm not comfortable dropping it altogether. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:42, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Talk:Noel Lee (executive), discussion about relative merits of the pianist vs the Monster Inc. CEO. In ictu oculi ( talk) 22:01, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 50 | ← | Archive 54 | Archive 55 | Archive 56 | Archive 57 | Archive 58 | → | Archive 60 |
[restored per talk]
A proposal recently emerged that involves restructuring the format and number of pages that relate to Schubert's complete lists of works. As of the moment, we have the following:
List of compositions by Franz Schubert (D 1 - D 500)
/info/en/?search=List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Schubert_%28D_1%E2%80%93D_500%29
List of compositions by Franz Schubert (D 501 - D 998)
/info/en/?search=List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Schubert_%28D_501%E2%80%93D_998%29
List of compositions by Franz Schubert by genre
/info/en/?search=List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Schubert_by_genre
The idea is to combine all three pages into one single page, and convert the current format, a bullet list, into a table. The new page would be titled:
List of compositions by Franz Schubert
(to this moment, the table has been created and edited up to D 46). The proposal can be found at:
/info/en/?search=Talk:List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Schubert
In principle, this would appear to be a good idea. However, these three pages have existed for a decade in this format. They were created in 2004, and my guess would be that they were originally divided in such ways because of the extremely large number of works that form Schubert´s output. On July of this year, all three pages underwent a major editing job. For the two pages listing works in ascending Deutsch numbers, this included adding an introduction and a key to reading the article's contents; adding missing entries and providing additional info. of relevance for all existing and new entries; updating Deutsch nos. formatting in accordance to the Deutsch catalogue; and listing references. For the compositions by genre page, in addition to the aforementioned changes, all works now appear organized in the order established by the Neue Schubert-Ausgabe. The previously existing format, that of bullet lists, was not changed in any of these three pages during this major revision. If some of you have had the chance to visit these pages lately, I hope that you can appreciate that implementing these revisions involved a considerable amount of work. Many hours were devoted over several months with the purpose of improving these pages. This is not to say that the information now present there is completely flawless or that these pages are not perfectible, but I do consider the information they provide to be solid, well documented and properly organized. I also think that the current format is the appropriate one. I find that having two pages that list the items in ascending Deutsch order and another one that lists all works by genre is not a problem at all, as the re-directs between all three articles can be easily accessed.
I would propose to leave the format in these three pages unchanged. If anything, perhaps the two pages that combine all compositions by ascending Deutsch numbers could be merged into one. But in essence, I do not support changing the format to a table or reducing the number of pages for the following reasons:
The advantage of the table is its sortability, but a table for a list like this would occupy an enormous amount of space. The idea behind the bullet lists is to be able to include a good deal of information while keeping the format at a reasonable length. The information for each entry in the bullet lists, in my opinion, does not look crowded, is concise but at the same time provides ample data for each work. Given the number of works in each list, they are all quite long as it is. A table would probably duplicate the size of the article (and we are talking of over 1,000 entries in this case). In addition, given the complexity and variety of information needed to catalogue Schubert's output, there seems like there would be a lot of wasted space. Many works will not have an AGA number, an opus number, a former Deutsch number, or would require additional information to be specified (in a Notes column). The great advantage of the bullet list is that the format allows the information to be presented without compromising the size.
With regard to content, the following is the key for the contents of the bullet list:
The main differences between this and the proposed table would be:
/info/en/?search=Schubert_opus/Deutsch_number_concordance It is true that this article consists of a sortable table, but the main difference here is that the table is much shorter, given the number of works that actually have opus numbers. The table also originated at the same time the article was created, so no major editing job was ever required to convert a previously existing format. In any extent, anybody wishing to see this article could also have access to it through the click of a button, once a re-direct is created.
So, to sum all this up... is it really worth restructuring these articles when this implies a major adjustment - deleting and/or reorganizing information that has just recently been updated, and, in my humble opinion, is adequately presented? I would certainly understand that starting from scratch is necessary for a composer of which very little or no information exists on Wikipedia. But I honestly do not believe this applies to Schubert.
I would sincerely appreciate any support that could be given to keep the bullet lists and these three pages as they currently are.
Solti79 (
talk)
16:30, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that is exactly why there was confusion in this regard. In any case, I would argue that there is no need to "absorb" anything. Why is it appropriate to unilaterally and arbitrarily decide that certain pages need to be removed or their format changed? I find this to be just wrong and unacceptable. People have been continually improving these pages for a long time, and in my view it is extremely disrespectful for one individual to just decide that other editors' work needs to be removed because you think the presentation of the information should appear in a different format. I kindly ask you to consider that these other editors, including myself, have invested a lot of time in these pages, and that what you propose to do goes against anything that would be deemed reasonable and civilized. I know for a fact that if you make your table over the next few months and then somebody decides that it is not necessary to have it and removes it, you would most certainly not approve of this. Well, this is exactly what you are doing to the work of others. As such, I do have a suggestion for you: re-consider your actions- be mindful and respectful of other editors, and leave the pages be as they are. Solti79 ( talk) 15:45, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I've nominated a WP:FA quality page related to this WikiProject for "Today's Featured Article" consideration, nomination is at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/John Barbirolli. — Cirt ( talk) 00:19, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Please voice your opinions about the somewhat delicate subject raised on the talk page of the American quartet, about including or not including the quartet's original nickname. Thanks, -- Ravpapa ( talk) 07:16, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I've re-done the archiving of this talk page, since no reason was given for its partial and broken reversion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:24, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
User TheBawbb ( talk) has raised an interesting issue on the talk page of Francis Schonken regarding the article La Diva de l'Empire, a popular song by Satie. Francis added a claim that the theme of the song is reused by Satie in his piece La belle excentrique. The Bawbb asked that Francis provide a source for this claim.
This raises an issue which we have discussed before, and, in light of the discussion on popular culture above, perhaps deserves to be revisited. When are your eyes and ears a reliable enough source for a statement about music? Here is a typical example: in the article Piano Quintet (Schumann), the article claims that the last movement includes a double fugue, using the main theme of the last movement and the opening theme of the first movement. There is even a little sound clip with explanation, showing this to be the case. No source is given; indeed, when I added this, I looked for a source and couldn't find one. Sources do discuss the cyclical nature of the piece, and the reuse of motifs across movements, but this specific example I couldn't find cited. Perhaps because it is so obvious to the musically trained ear. It is certainly significant, and any tyro can immediately verify its truth.
So do we need a source for this specific claim or not? Is not the score itself a reliable enough source?
The case of La belle excentrique certainly goes to the heart of this issue. Because, listening to it and comparing it to La Diva de l-Empire, I am not at all sure that one is quoting the other. Both tunes are cakewalks, both have little snippets of similarity, but to go so far as to say one is quoting the other is something I wouldn't do without an external source. In the case of the Schumann quintet, I would say the reuse is undeniable, and citing it unsourced is acceptable.
Any opinions? -- Ravpapa ( talk) 05:41, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Not exactly, Mr. Schonken...
The opening movement of La belle excentrique (the "Grande Ritournelle") is a cakewalk. Satie did in fact draw on his old cabaret material for this piece, but it was not "Diva" but the music for an unpublished 1905 song, Légende californienne. In Steven Moore Whiting's "Satie the Bohemian" (Oxford University Press, 1999) he writes on pages 314-315:
I tried to include a PDF link to Olof Höjer's booklet for Vol. 6 of his complete recordings of Satie's piano music, which confirms this info (with bibliography), but it was blocked as being on Wiki's blacklist. Neither Whiting nor Höjer mention any other borrowings of older material in "excentrique".
"Intermezzo américain" is just a new subtitle Satie added for H. Ourdine's 1919 piano transcription of "Diva", pointing out (as the song lyrics did not) that the cakewalk was an American invention.
Now, getting back to Ravpapa's topic, my own ears have never told me that "Diva" was quoted in "excentrique", and if they had I still would not have posted this assumption in a Wiki article without a source or two to confirm it. I guess I'm anal that way, a plodding "just the facts" kinda guy. Besides, any lawyer will tell you (if you push them hard enough) that eyewitness testimony isn't always reliable, and the same goes for "earwitness" testimony...
I agree with Ravpapa that "ear-sourcing" is a complex issue and should be handled on a case-by-case basis. But outside sources can't hurt. TheBawbb ( talk) 08:50, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
The main problem with one's own ears is that it's original research; other sources such as the piece's score are needed. I have perfect pitch yet would not trust myself with inserting such claims. For example, a deaf reader should still be able to verify such claims.-- Jasper Deng (talk) 18:52, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Of course, I agree completely with Jasper. That's why I wrote (in the text) "ears and eyes". There are certainly statements of fact that we can make relying on our reading of the score alone - for example, that the second movement of a piece is in the dominant, or that the the second violin plays in 2/4 time while the first violin plays in 6/8. But where to we draw the line? Smerus suggests there is no line - that you can't say a piece is a waltz without a source. But I find that many sources - especially academic sources that assume a much higher level of musical training in their readers than we assume here - are often elliptical and leave out obvious things (like the second theme is in the dominant) that we would want to include in our articles. Can we cite the score as a reliable source? -- Ravpapa ( talk) 04:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Ravpapa, careful about setting up a straw man to support your case. I did not claim that "you can't say a piece is a waltz without a source". But as you have raised the issue, I wouldn't need my ears to make such a claim. In many cases, the composer will have called his piece a waltz. or marked the piece 'tempo di valse' or suchlike. Or I could write "the piece, which is in triple time and at a moderate tempo, has the characteristics of a waltz". What I shouldn't write is "the piece sounds like a waltz to me".-- Smerus ( talk) 09:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
@ Kosboot and Ravpapa: A propos, the article waltz (music) is presently grotesquely inadequate. Smerus ( talk) 17:19, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Smerus is (as usual) right. Let's stop shmoozing and get back to work! -- Ravpapa ( talk) 07:09, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
I just noticed Julie Giroux, which has style and sourcing issues. I did some minor cleanup, but it could use some more work by someone who edits composer articles more than I do. Also, I removed the information about her Emmy win, because it was sourced to IMDB and made it sound like it was a personal win, instead of as part of a team. That should probably be revisited, because I'm not comfortable dropping it altogether. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:42, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Talk:Noel Lee (executive), discussion about relative merits of the pianist vs the Monster Inc. CEO. In ictu oculi ( talk) 22:01, 9 December 2014 (UTC)