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Hello. The start of the MLB season is 2½ months away. Similar to what I am doing with my NHL team season articles, I have started the concept of doing a similar project for the MLB baseball season this year. If anybody would like to work on this project, click here. The details and information is available on this site. Simply add your name next to a team, and feel free to create the article. I hope that this project is successful and has enough people working on it to get the articles for all 30 teams. Thanks. Ksy92003 00:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is a complete mess and needs work ASAP. Quadzilla99 15:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I notice that articles on players generally don't include their statistics. I assume the reason for that is that MLB statistics are widely available from other sources, such as baseball-reference.com, which can be accessed through an external link. My question is about players for whom this is not the case -- specifically, pre-1950 Negro League players and notable career minor leaguers. (I've edited articles for a few of these players.) For early Negro League and minor league players, their statistics may be scattered among various books or old baseball guides. Would it be considered acceptable to include the statistics for these players within the article (while citing the sources)? — BRMo 15:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I am proposing that the projects become one, I don’t see why the projects are separate. There are different ways you can do this and one way would be to make the WPBBP a subproject/taskforce of the main WPBB. This would have them using the same template, the discussions staying closer, etc.
Please comment -- Borgarde 00:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Baseball has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. ~~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jeffpw ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
The Chien-Ming Wang article is the site of a dispute where a number of Chinese users are attempting to add Republic of China as Wang's birthplace. I've looked but am unable to verify this with a reliable source. I realize that ROC and Taiwan are the same, however since the threshold for inclusion into Wikipedia is verifiablity and not truth as per WP:VERIFY, I've asked for a source that includes Republic of China. The following reliable sources list Wang as being born in Taiwan: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], however I've yet to see a single reliable source that says Republic of China. Since this dispute is now starting to include personal attacks from a number of users 'recruited' by one particular editor, I'm requesting some third party opinions on how this should be handled. Thanks. Yankees76 00:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it's about time we discussed naming conventions on articles.
While editting I've noticed articles that have players names and then (baseball), ones that have (baseball player) and ones that have (LEAGUE NAME player).
I can understand the use of league name player once there has been two players with the same name, but what is the default? (baseball) or (baseball player)?
Same goes with baseball teams. I've seen (baseball), (baseball team), and (LEAGUE team). Which one?
Should we not use (baseball) at all and simply put (baseball team)? And then if there has been two teams with the same name, one goes with the (LEAGUE team)?
I support the article that has the most significance to not carry a name in brackets. For instance, if a team has world wide significance, let them use the name of the article, and the one that is a hardly known minor league team to use (baseball team) at the end.
Any thoughts? -- Borgarde 05:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
How should the sub-categories within this category be named? They are currently Category:2006 World Baseball Classic players of Country or this way, Category:Country players in the 2006 World Baseball Classic
The current categories are:
I prefer "Canadian players at the 2006 World Baseball Classic". Just want some thoughts into this. -- Borgarde 14:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if this is not the place to put this, but I just noticed the tag on the discussion page of Shoeless Joe. It says that Joe's article is "middle-importance". Say it ain't so!
If you are looking at pure numbers over a full career, maybe this is accurate. If you are looking at pure talent it is not even close. If you are looking at the what he added to the legend, lore, and myth of the game he is probably the most important player ever (at least tied with the Babe, Ty Cobb, and Yogi Berra). If you are looking at how he affected the game of baseball and how baseball is viewed in American culture - it's just him and the Babe.
In short, could somebody please check the umpire's eyeglass prescription?
Smallbones 16:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
User:WatchlistBot has finished tagging baseball articles, with the list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Articles. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do to help (like check the categories again and tag new articles at some point in the future). Ingrid 21:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Doug Harvey has been tagged as being part of the baseball project because it is is in Category:Buffalo Bisons players a category which says it is for a baseball team. It seems like this is a mistake though, since Doug Harvey is a hockey player (who played for a hockey team called the Buffalo Bisons). There may be other hockey players in this category as well. I'm posting to Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey as well. Perhaps someone from here and/or someone from there could work this out. For now, I've just got Doug Harvey explicitly excluded from tagging by User:WatchlistBot. Ingrid 05:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I did the Billy Rogell page about six months ago but didn't get any feedback on it. Originally I'd planned to do a whole series, or at least continue my work through a good number of players. Is this what we're looking for here? Because if so I'd definitely be interested in taking time to work on some more baseball pages. Someone drop me a line here or email me: desjardfan@gmail.com
Desjardfan 09:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I have been involved with a dispute with
Fahima07 about whether or not the scores of every single game should be listed in that article. After
February 28, the actions needed will be taken to the article. Any disagreements may be posted here.
Ksy92003
talk·
contribs
The traduction is wrong. There is no "Caribbean Baseball World Series", but "The Caribbean Series". In Spanish the event is called "La Serie del Caribe", not "La Serie Mundial del Caribe de Béisbol". Someone must fix this.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.45.125.51 ( talk • contribs) 12:42, 12 February 2007.
This is correct. A non-admin can't do the move, since Caribbean Series already exists as a redirect. I'll post it to be moved, when I have a minute, or maybe someone else can beat me to it. -- Djrobgordon 18:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
It's probably been discussed before, but I find it annoying that teams like the Philadelphia Athletics and St. Louis Browns are listed under their current incarnations. Shouldn't they have separate articles? At the least, it would seem to make the current articles not so long. Hockey has articles for the Minnesota North Stars and Winnipeg Jets, I think baseball ought to be the same way. DandyDan2007 13:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm having a problem on the Atlanta Braves page. An anon user with multiple IP addresses keeps changing the article so that the Braves only have 11 consecutive season division championshps from 14. He/she/it refuses to enage in any discussion at all on the issue, and has reverted several attempts at a compromise that gives both positions. If wyou would like to weigh in on this specific issue, the discussion and details of the problem are on Talk:Atlanta Braves.
I would like to know if the project has dealt with how to handle the strike year and its effects on team records before. Is there a consensus from the project on what to do in these situations? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. - BillCJ 03:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the references. I'm going to repost your comments on the Talk:Atlanta Braves page, and try to work the references into the article. Thanks again! - BillCJ 18:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I am a member of this project and WP:RADIO too. I grew up listening to Vin Scully and Jerry Doggett. I've added a couple of the Dodger (no booing or hissing, please) to the Radio project with the talkpage tag. You can see it on those articles.
It is a real shame that great announcers like Doggett does not have much of an article. Like all the greats, he drew a picture and I remember scoring games as they were announced on radio. Those were the days when you had a program to do boxscores. Just a thought and a tip of the hat to my Dad who started me down this route. Cheers, Ronbo76 13:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Any idea if Roush Fenway Racing should be included under this project? While it seems this turn of events will have the largest impact on NASCAR itself, it seems to me that this is going to have an important and extremely notable recognition within Major League Baseball as well, since this is the first time anything like this has happened within any of the so called "four major sports" in America. -- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk| @ 00:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
This page now automatically archives, discussions that are 28 days without comment are archived into the current archive. I put 28 days because 4 weeks seems a reasonable amount of time to consider a discussion dead. I've also made a link to all the archives in the project to try to organise it a little better, might put it in a table or something later, but for now it's all fine. -- Borgarde talk 03:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The 2007 team pages for the Major League Baseball season, right now they are all more or less at a start level I'd say. Does anyone have opinions on their importance? Low? Mid?
You could say they are mid-importance for the current season, but in the overall project they are low. Just want some opinions before I mark any. Thanks. -- Borgarde ( talk) 02:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Are we just going to go with one month at a time or are we going to go with an entire season in the article? Also, why do we need to show off days? It take up unnecessary space in the article. Kingjeff 15:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if this discussion should happen here or at the Players Task Force pages.
I've been trying to clean up links on the All Time Roster pages, and have noticed there is almost no standardization, particularly in what data is included. Some pages only have players with existing wikipedia articles, and no other information. Unfortunately, this makes them a duplicate of the category for that teams' players, which is discouraged by wikipedia. Some rosters include everyone who has been on the 40-man roster, whether they appeared in a game or not, while other rosters restrict the list to those who played in at least one major league game. Also rosters vary as to whether they include the years played and position played.
Any thoughts?-- Kathy A. 22:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
So to summarize the thoughts so far: include only players who played at least one game for that team, include the years they played for that team, include where they played the most for that team (P, C, IF, OF), and include HOF as appropriate. Also include a paragraph at the beginning of each roster saying who is included.-- Kathy A. 16:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm in the early stages of reviving Portal:Baseball, and it occurred to me that this might be a better place to post a notice than the talk page of a moribund Portal. Ideally, I'd like to have it up and running before opening day. Right now, I'm working on a redesign, since the color scheme and layout make it pretty difficult to read. If anyone's interested, my work in progress is at User:Djrobgordon/sandbox. I realize doing edits in my sandbox isn't the most transparent way of going about it, but I thought it was better than using the real portal for my experiments. Even if you're not interested in being permanently involved in the portal, I'd love some constructive criticism. If you have any comments please leave them at Portal talk:Baseball, rather than my sandbox talk page. That way I won't have to move them there after the redesign is complete.
Ideally, I'd like to have a few other editors help evaluate articles and images to feature on the page, as well as to update the News and Did You Know... sections. I don't particularly mind doing it myself, but it's not really in the spirit of Wikipedia. It seems like the Portal has had two spurts of activity, led by individual editors who abandoned it soon after. I don't plan on abandoning it, but I could get hit by a bus or something.
Thanks for any help you can give. -- Djrobgordon 18:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Hey all ... this project is attempting to cover a wide variety of things within the category of baseball. Although commendable, its certainly hard to manage everything all at once! I would like to help by proposing to develop standard article templates for all team and league articles to promote consistency among the articles. I understand that some aspects of this has already been done (for example, major league teams should follow a specific ToC), but may not be consistently applied (especially for minor league teams and leagues). What I'm proposing is ensuring that we have a standard a number of things, including:
I propose to establish standard templates primarily for the minor leagues, including both current and former teams as well as current and former leagues. Part of this sub-project will be to identify and catalog every minor league team and league that has existed and to create, at a minimum, stub pages for them.
I have a lot of ideas, and intend to leverage as much work as has been done in the general WikiProject Baseball as possible. I will begin to work on this, but seek to identify a couple of volunteers to provide input and help. I would like to keep the initial involvement to a few individuals as that will promote efficiency. If anyone is interested, please leave leave a comment on my talk page. -- CPAScott 20:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I have compiled a listing of all major and minor leagues as well as most current and some historical independent leagues. See User:CPAScott/Template01. This can be the master list to track the creation of the league pages once the template is developed. Right now, no one has yet expressed an interest in joining this task force -- please let me know if you can help! I will work on a template for leagues and seek member opinion before updating or creating the stub pages.
A task force page has been established -- CPAScott 20:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering if someone could create a cap with the team's cap logo for each MLB team for use in the infobox instead of the current square with cap logo. I'm thinking of something like the NFL team's have with the helmet in the infobox only a baseball cap. I am not artistic or graphic skilled in any way so I can't do it. If someone else can and will, I think it would really improve the appearance of the team pages and infoboxes. Timpcrk87 06:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
If anyone's interest, I just requested a peer review for Youngstown Ohio Works. The peer review is located at Wikipedia:Peer review/Youngstown Ohio Works.-- Djrobgordon 04:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
not for guys trying to make the team in spring training, they are not. more important than minor league stats, as the major league staff is watching. imho. --Epeefleche 23:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Are you going to post stats for Milledge, Ben Johnson, Anderson Hernandez etc?? The thing is, minor league stats are conserved and remembered years to come...they span a greater amount of time and show development. Spring training stats, more or less, are thrown out the window...it's a time for pitchers to try new things and it's more about getting into shape. We can discuss this further but it probably be best to refer it to wiki-project baseball. SERSeanCrane 23:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Spring training serves different purposes for different players. What you say as to spring training being about getting into shape is the case for players who have made the team, but that is not what it is about for Newhan. For Newhan, it is about impressing Willie and the coaching staff, so that they pick him for the team.
And as to spring training stats being thown out the window, the trend is the reverse. See, for example, http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/N/David-Newhan.shtml , in which you can see that Newhan didn't have very good springs hitting wise in 2005 and 2006.
As far as referring it to wiki-project baseball, that sounds fine to me if you are unwilling to undo your revert.
Might I prevail upon you to do it for me, as I am not sure how that is done.
Thanks. --Epeefleche 00:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The founder of Retrosheet has an article, which I found while working on uncategorized articles. I placed him in the Category:Baseball Statistics, but in retrospect, didn't think it fit. If you'd like to come up with a better category, or if you think it's good enough, come up with one. DandyDan2007 01:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
-- After Midnight 0001 04:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I came across the article of Harry Simmons today. It really needs to be cleaned up. I don't know anything about this guy, but if anyone can cite sources or do anything to clean it up it would be appreciated. It doesn't read very well at all right now. -- Borgarde talk 00:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for cleaning up this article about my Dad. I will try to add some references from the New York Times and some magazines which had published articles about Harry Simmons. I eventually plan to submit his name for nomination to the Composite Ballot for the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown. Any suggestions would be welcome. My e-mail address is davezxc@yahoo.com. Davezxc 12:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
This is something of a followup to my previous question about David Smith. Looking at Category:Baseball statistics, you got a number of statisticians or analysts. I suppose you could say sabermetricians. A good number of them are employees of Baseball Prospectus. It seems to me that should be a separate category. If you agree, what's the best name for the category? DandyDan2007 08:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the college football teams have a template at the bottom of their page with a link to each of the coaches' entries. Could we do that with baseball teams and managers? Tomdaddy53 21:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Links to previous discussion:
Please take a look at these two articles, and then look at these articles: 2007 Chicago White Sox season and 2007 Cleveland Indians season. Is this the way that everybody wants to do the game logs? And if so, do you want to leave it in this format, or do you want to change the teams so it says "Chicago" instead of "White Sox", "Los Angeles (AL)" instead of "Angels", "New York (AL)" instead of "Yankees"? Is it necessary to make a different shade to differentiate between home stands and road trips, since after the games are completed the table will be color coded to indicate wins and losses anyway, eliminating the blue color? It doesn't matter as much to me, but it would clearly be best if it is the same format for every team's article. Please leave your comments here, and we'll see what the consensus is. Ksy92003 talk· contribs
How about adding the starting pitcher? The "Record" and "Division Standings" columns could be condensed down into a single column with entries like "5-0, 1st" or "3-7, 4th (tie)". — Mike 06:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, do we need the column 'OT'? In a season long game log is the notation of extra inning games needed? Perhaps that column would be better served by Games Behind (GB) or Winning Percentage (PCT)? — Steven Andrew Miller ( talk) 07:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Example Log:
# | Date | Visitor | Score | Home | Win/Loss | Save | Attendance | Record | GB |
79 | June 30 | White Sox | 6-2 | Cubs | Garland/ Marshall | 40,720 | 52-27 | 2.5 | |
80 | July 1 | White Sox | 8-6 | Cubs | Cotts/ Dempster | Jenks | 41,027 | 53-27 | 1.5 |
81 | July 2 | White Sox | 15-11 | Cubs | Zambrano/ Buehrle | Howry | 40,919 | 53-28 | 2.5 |
Is everyone good with this? Or are there more purposed changes? — Steven Andrew Miller ( talk) 18:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Comment - These articles need to be moved, they violate wiki policy. Subpages do not exist in main article space. The slash should be replaced with a space, i.e. 2007 Chicago White Sox season game log.-- Holderca1 03:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Looking over this, I have a few comments, I think the color coding should be based on home/away rather than win/loss, you can put a W or an L next to the score to denote a win or loss. Then you would just need one team column titled opponent. Keep the other teams pitcher, it's nice to be able to look through and see how a team has done against a specific pitcher, and split the win/loss into two columns. Also, I think the record of the pitchers should be included, see below for what I envision -- Holderca1 14:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Example Log:
# | Date | Opponent | Score | Win | Loss | Save | Attendance | Record | GB |
79 | June 30 | Cubs | W 6-2 | Garland (12-3) | Marshall (6-6) | 40,720 | 52-27 | 2.5 | |
80 | July 1 | Cubs | W 8-6 | Cotts (3-1) | Dempster (1-4) | Jenks (19) | 41,027 | 53-27 | 1.5 |
81 | July 2 | Cubs | L 15-11 | Zambrano (12-4) | Buehrle (10-6) | Howry (22) | 40,919 | 53-28 | 2.5 |
Example Log:
# | Date | Opponent | Score | Win | Loss | Save | Attendance | Record | GB |
79 | June 30 | Cubs | 6-2 | Garland | Marshall | 40,720 | 52-27 | 2.5 | |
80 | July 1 | Cubs | 8-6 | Cotts | Dempster | Jenks | 41,027 | 53-27 | 1.5 |
81 | July 2 | Cubs | 15-11 | Zambrano | Buehrle | Howry | 40,919 | 53-28 | 2.5 |
Please see: WP:Baseball/game_log — Steven Andrew Miller ( talk) 17:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
You would probably still want to include the "W" or "L" as people who are color blind may not be able to pick up the color differences as easily. And someone should try to print it out on a black and white printer to see if the red and green look very different. — Mike 22:29, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I agree that the "W" or "L" should be kept in front of the score. Also, I think the pitcher's record should go on this page. It allows a quick reference to see how a pitcher progressed throughout the season, which I feel is closely related to the team and so belongs on the log page. I apologize if this is the wrong place, but I'm not familiar with the layout of Wiki quite yet. I'd be willing to do the Indians game log, which is currently empty on the page listing the teams. Should I add myself to it? Good work on the logs so far! Tytrain 23:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Example Log:
# | Date | Opponent | Score | Win | Loss | Save | Attendance | Record |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
79 | June 30 | Cubs | 6-2 | Garland | Marshall | 40,720 | 52-27 | |
80 | July 1 | Cubs | 8-6 | Cotts | Dempster | Jenks | 41,027 | 53-27 |
81 | July 2 | Cubs | 15-11 | Zambrano | Buehrle | Howry | 40,919 | 53-28 |
I still think that green and red would be best for denoting wins and losses. If we use gray and white, people might get confused as to which color is for wins and losses. It is common sense that green would be the good thing for the team (Wins) and the red would be the bad (losses).
I am really hoping that we can get this straightened out by the time the season starts, as it would be good to keep everything organized by the time we start adding stuff.
Ksy92003
talk·
contribs
00:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The score, I think, should still be listed with the home team's score first, even for losses - 11-15 in the example above. Tytrain 01:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Example Log:
# | Date | Opponent | Score | Win | Loss | Save | Attendance | Record |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
79 | June 30 | Cubs | 6-2 | Garland | Marshall | 40,720 | 52-27 | |
80 | July 1 | Cubs | 8-6 | Cotts | Dempster | Jenks | 41,027 | 53-27 |
81 | July 2 | Cubs | 15-11 | Zambrano | Buehrle | Howry | 40,919 | 53-28 |
As you can see by the edits from my last example log, I think we should put the pitcher (Win, Loss, Save) in Bold letters for easier reading. Ksy92003 talk· contribs 17:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to impose a March 28 deadline on deciding how to do these. March 28 is four days before the season starts, so I would like to get this part straightened out by then if possible. Ksy92003 talk· contribs 01:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree that a indication of home/away is need. And to clarify, I am in favor of the colored boxes, and in favor of always listing the article team's score first, win or lose. Tytrain 00:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It does show progressively shows a w-l record during the season. Kingjeff 03:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, it's been a while since we've really had anybody comment about how to go about doing the game logs. I think we can safely say that we have the format taken care of (Date / Opponent / Score / Win / Loss / Save / Attendance / Record) and that those are the headings that we are going to include in our game log table. That said, I think we only have two items of discussion still ongoing.
Please state your opinion and hopefully we can get a consensus. Ksy92003 talk· contribs 16:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
If nobody proposes any more ideas for this or states their opinion about the game logs, then we'll just have to go with whatever we have, which right now is Red/Green and pitcher's records. During the season, we might be able to have another discussion about this and make the necessary changes, but we will only be able to take stuff out, not put stuff in. Ksy92003 talk· contribs 18:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Alright, our deadline has come and passed. So, here is our final proposal. Again, during the season we may remove some stuff from the game logs that we already have, but we may not add any information already included. Here is our final proposal; this is what all of our game logs are gonna be modeled off of.
# | Date | Opponent | Score | Win | Loss | Save | Attendance | Record |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
79 | June 30 | Cubs | 6 - 2 | Garland (12-3) | Marshall (6-6) | 40,720 | 52-27 | |
80 | July 1 | Cubs | 8 - 6 | Cotts (3-1) | Dempster (1-4) | Jenks (19) | 41,027 | 53-27 |
81 | July 2 | Cubs | 15 - 11 | Zambrano (12-4) | Buehrle (10-6) | Howry (22) | 40,919 | 53-28 |
Ksy92003 talk· contribs 23:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Moe Berg has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I proposed adding some additional optional sections to the season articles format page. You can find the discussion here: /MLB team season articles format#Additional sections. Comments are welcome. — Mike 22:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey everybody... be sure that your team's roster is updated prior to Opening Day. Some of the teams have not finalized their rosters; make sure that your team's roster matches the roster on the team site prior to Opening Day. I've already updated several of the rosters. All of the teams should be finalizing their rosters this weekend. Tomdaddy53 19:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking it may be useful to create a template that can be put on a gamelog if it falls behind on being updated. Then all the gamelogs needing updated will be in one category and easy for someone to take care of before it falls 10+ games behind. --- CWY2190 T C 20:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Jim Thorpe has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. -- Miskwito 04:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I have put up an RFC here to decide how best to disambiguate baseball players (ie. using "(baseball)" or "(baseball player)". Your input is appreciated. Caknuck 20:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Why are we having redundancy? Should we not use internal links only once per series? Kingjeff 01:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm talking about when a series is played. A team plays lets say the Minnesota Twins for 3 straight games in 3 straight days. Do we really need to link all 3 games to the Minnesota Twins? I don't think so. Kingjeff 03:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I think you need to list all the games in the series. If you go back to when I started to created the table, you'll noticed that I only linked a team once a series simly because it was pointless doing it for the entire series. Kingjeff 04:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
How about we link teams once per series? This way it's not redundant and there would be enough throughout the table. Kingjeff 16:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't look bad if the linking is consistent. And repeating the teams isn't redundant because we're talking about different games. Kingjeff 16:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm cross-posting the following from the WP:WPBBP discussion page to try and get as much input as possible. If you have comments, please post them over there. Thanks, Sanfranman59 17:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
There are categories for players who have played on various minor league teams (e.g., Category:Kinston Indians players). An anonymous editor added the Kinston Indians category to Cliff Lee's article, although he's only appeared in one game for them prior to this season during a rehab assignment in 2003 (he's supposed to pitch a couple of innings for them tonight). Since I don't think that players on rehab assignments are even added to the official minor league team roster, it seems to me that we shouldn't put the categories on the player pages in these situations. I'd like to get some consensus on this issue. Does anyone recall any discussion of this in the past?
See discussion here: /2007_MLB_team_articles#Discussion_whether_to_keep_or_remove_player_stats. -- Holderca1 18:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Are we allowed to copy and paste things straight from the baseball-reference.com bullpen? They use the same license we do. Just don't know if that means copy-edit, or copy-paste, etc. Any tips?-- Borgarde talk 00:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Has there been any discussion or preferably a consensus reached about updating statistics in the infoboxes on player pages? I've got all of the Indians player pages on my watchlist and a couple of them have been updated with statistics from this season, but most have not. This is certainly a monumental task and seems to me to be unnecessary in an encyclopedia since there are ump-teen other more reliable sources for current statistics. The problem I have with it is that unless the statistics are updated for every player on a regular basis, the currency of the player pages will be uneven. I'm inclined to revert these in-season edits. Once the season is over, it makes perfect sense to update the infoboxes then. -- Sanfranman59 19:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I saw this in the to-do list, just moving it on to the talk page.
"Strikeout - discuss the rule that applies in the rare instances when a batter is replaced by a pinch hitter after having already received 1 or 2 strikes, and then the pinch hitter (who inherits the count) receives the 3rd strike. Which batter is charged with the strikeout? Does it matter how many strikes were inherited? Also discuss the similar rare situation in which pitcher is replaced in the middle of a plate appearance."
Thanks. -- Borgarde talk 05:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion going on in the Japanese baseball task force, about merged teams. Please provide input as it concerns baseball teams all around the world. -- Borgarde talk 16:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
There are a lot of baseball articles about events in a specific year that need rating, and I'm looking for some input as to recommendations for judging their importance and quality. Here are a few types:
Is it appropriate to give each of these categories blanket ratings, or, for example are some World Series more important than others? My opinions for importance ratings:
Any thoughts? Thanks for your input. - Mattingly23 13:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The article, Baseball, lost it's featured status a while ago. I was wondering, the Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Article improvement drive is inactive, if we start it up again and work on baseball as the first article? Thoughts? -- Borgarde talk 05:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I know they may have been born in Germany, but I don't see the justification for the German flag on their listings with their teams, since they were probably the children of servicemen. The same with Bruce Bochy, who was born in France, but whose father, according to his article, was a U.S. Army serviceman. DandyDan2007 10:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I would like to add to Wikipedia articles about each professional North American baseball league and team to Wikipedia, similar to the content included at the BR Bullpen (also wiki-based), but with more focus on encyclopedic content and with the scrutiny of the Wikipedia community. I've spent a fair amount of time compiling a listing of all baseball leagues from about 1877 through today in the following categories:
Right now, I have about 365 leagues in my database. They are listed, in alphabetical order, on my user page.
I've also compiled a listing of all baseball teams associated with the above leagues for the same time frame and have just under 5,000 teams. They are listed on my user page as well. This data also exists in an Excel spreadsheet so it can be sorted.
Obviously, this is a lot of data, but an interesting project for sure. Much of it does not yet exist in Wikipedia, although many articles do exist for current leagues and teams.
The first thing I need to do is devise a page template for leagues and a page template for teams. These templates would then be applied to all new articles AS WELL AS existing ones, so careful consideration of content, infoboxes, etc. is warranted. I'd like some input from the community. I only need a couple of people to help. I've created a task force page, but no content appears there yet. I can't do this alone! Leave me a message on my talk page and let's build this together!! -- CPAScott 17:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
does wikiproject baseball have notability standards for baseball players? Miss Mondegreen | Talk 12:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what page links to, but the sports notability page states that any player who has appeared in a fully professional league is considered notable. So considering how hard it is to get into the majors, anyone who has played MLB baseball is considered notable. -- Borgarde talk 06:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we add categories for high school baseball and high school baseball venues? Jerry Uht Park in Erie, PA uses its park for minor league ball, but also hosts high school and college games. There are already categories for college baseball and college baseball venues, but I couldn't find anything for high schools. I think it would be useful to track the high school activities, which I'm sure are common. Let me know if I missed them somehow or if there is something I am supposed to do besides this to request that categories be established. Pat 10:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I drafted a page for them on a sports wiki (ArmchairGM.com) I run. It's here. You're welcome to fork it, with attribution, if you'd like. -- DNL 13:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I've been working on fixing links to disambiguation pages - so that links go where they're supposed to - in this case on links to Record. A lot of them are from the MLB player infobox on baseball player pages, e.g. Josh Beckett, where the editor has wikilinked the stat label Record, presumably so it fits in colour-wise with the other selected stats (?), but the link just goes to the disamb page, not to anywhere baseball-related. This is also the case with Infobox asian baseball player, e.g. Pan Wei-lun.
Is there any way round this - if I de-link them your colour scheme gets upset, perhaps there's an appropriate baseball-related article to which they could be linked instead? - Struway 18:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
On the Detroit Tigers page there is an animated gif which someone had created, and it shows a tiger grabbing and chewing a baseball bat inside a circle marked "Detroit Tigers". This image ( File:Tiger4.gif), if one looks at the file summary, shows who created it, and the copyright claim, which states it was released into the public domain. I had used this image on my own user page, as I am a fan of the Tigers.
However, upon checking with Ron Wade, an official with Detroit Tigers managment, this image is copyrighted by the Tigers, and it was used by the Tigers for their television broadcasting beginning in the early-1980's. I was further told by Mr. Wade that any image or logo owned by the MLB is copyrighted, and permission must be granted for use apart from what they have specified. This means unless specific permission has been granted to Wikipedia, there isn't a single baseball logo that is allowed here for any article on any team.
So, whoever are the powers that be in Wikipedia had better get to contacting MLB about getting permission, because they're not going to be happy with fair use. Carajou 22:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Just a pair of reminders.
- Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 15:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I put together a page in my user space ( here) that compares the team color schemes used by MLB.com to those we use. (In case you're interested, the colors they use are identified in .css files for each team. Cleveland's is here.) For about half the teams, the colors are either identical or only subtly different than what we're using. For the other half, at least one of the colors is quite different. The latter group includes BAL, CWS, CIN, CLE, COL, DET, KC, LAA, LAD, OAK, PHI, SD, STL, TB and TOR. Personally, I prefer the page header colors (i.e. the last two columns in my table) MLB.com uses for CLE, DET, KC, LAA, PHI, SD and TOR.
I propose that we change the color schemes for at least these 7 teams. What do others think? -- Sanfranman59 23:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Someone just added an infobox to Jim Eisenreich; I corrected the dashes on the date ranges to conform to WP:DASH. Just pointing out that ndash is used on date ranges; you can find it under your reply screen when in edit mode. Hyphen (-) is used to hyphenate words; ndash (–) is used to separate number and date ranges; mdash (—) is used as punctuation, for example, in place of a comma. This are often misused in sports articles. Thanks for improving Eisenreich! Regards, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 11:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous user has added this box to the pages of each of the players on the White Sox 2005 WS roster. I stumbled across it because I have Cliff Politte on my watchlist. Is this a new initiative? I'm guessing that it's not and am inclined to revert these edits. But I thought I ought to post the question here first so as not to step on any toes. -- Sanfranman59 20:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I've listed several seemingly notable baseball-related individuals buried at Trinity Cemetery in Erie, Pennsylvania. I don't see a way to categorize the page to highlight the baseball information it contains. It is, after all, a cemetery article. But maybe someone from WikiProject Baseball can figure out a way to link the information? None of the individuals have a dedicated Wiki article. Greetings from Wikiproject Erie. Pat 04:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Referring to the discussion above I have re-opened the article improvement drive in hope to see it start once again. If it doesn't work we'll just have to re-mark it as inactive. But for now, go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Article improvement drive. I have also changed the votes to 2 to make it more realistic in nominations. I'll volunteer to organise this until it gets running properly. Feel free to nominate. I nominated Ty Cobb.-- Borgarde talk 13:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I'm just seeking some opinions on Talk:Josh Hancock regarding Infobox color schemes of deceased players. Please feel free to add your opinion and help to build consensus one way or the other. Thanks! I am hoping to create a guideline for Baseball infoboxes of deceased persons based on the outcome of this debate. -- KirinX 20:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm seeking some consensus on the format and content of the roster "articles". I searched through the archives of this page and only found a couple of posts from last year on this topic ( Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 1#Team_Rosters). It looks like a good deal of standardization has happened since then. With the exception Texas Rangers roster, they all look pretty much the same. But I think we can do even better. (Parenthetical question: Why are the '67 Red Sox the only historical team to merit a roster page?)
For one thing, roster pages for all three of the other major professional American sports leagues are templates that are transcluded into a list of rosters article (e.g., NFL rosters) and into each individual team's article. Only 4 baseball team rosters are set up as templates (Red Sox, Yankees, Mariners and White Sox) and there's actually also a White Sox template page that redirects to Chicago White Sox roster. I think the other sports are probably more compliant with WP guidelines and standards since the rosters really aren't articles in and of themselves.
What led me to look into this was a message I received from someone who was monitoring recent page edits. This user tagged the San Diego Padres roster page with {{context}} {{Unreferenced|date=April 2007}} {{Wikify|date=April 2007}}. If you're interested, here's a link to this user's note to me and here's a link to my response and another note from him/her. In reviewing and updating all of the roster pages to accurately reflect the current rosters (as of one or two days ago, that is), I noted the following inconsistencies:
I've created a model here for a roster template that looks pretty much like what we've already got for most teams but also incorporates a few ideas from the NFL roster templates (a border, links to each team's depth chart and transaction list on MLB.com and view, talk and edit navigation bar links).
Thoughts, concerns, obscene gestures? -- Sanfranman59 04:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Yea, I just did a small adjustment to the Red Sox, Yanks, and Jays. I really think the SP and Bullpen should be seperated. Makes sense. -- Libd84 11:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Per
Sanfranman59's comment above: I think that the lines may have been wrapping on your monitor due to the fact that you have a smaller screen resolution than I do. Regardless, I added the <small>
tags to the coaches section on my Indians roster to make them smaller as per your request. As for there needing to be a verifiable link to a roster, I need to point out that it is indeed present on my Indians roster in the lower-left corner. I placed it under the pitching staff to keep the roster template small and neat (and so there wasn't any negative space); however, if it needs to be moved on other templates, I feel that it should be moved so as to keep the templates as small height-wise as possible. Pitchers who are a part of the bullpen and make emergency starts should only be placed in the bullpen unless they're moved to the starting rotation officially. If you follow a team, you'll know who makes up the starting rotation, so I feel it should be left up to someone who follows the team closely and can reliably and accurately place pitchers in the correct section on the template. One thing I do need to point out is that everything should be alphabetized. This isn't a depth chart, so no one should try to organize it that way. I also wanted to point out a question I was thinking about when I constructed my Indians template: should we denote who plays where? For example, a small notation 3B next to a third baseman? I wasn't sure so I didn't do that. Anyway, I'm glad I could help where I could.
Wlmaltby3 –
talk/
contribs
04:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks great, guys. A couple of things to note:
Caknuck 04:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I, too, support this standardization as the proud representative of Philadelphia Phillies roster (just wait a few weeks and that sentence won't elicit chuckles). I think that the coaches' roles shouldn't be too specified so the page doesn't get too busy. And, yes, they should all be true templates, as they're not actually articles. Good call. JesseRafe 05:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The content in the 1964 College World Series was copied from the Baseball-Reference.com Bullpen without attribution. The Bullpen is a wiki site that allows copying, but only with attribution. I suspect that other CWS results pages were likewise copied. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.92.112.144 ( talk) 20:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
Based on my experience at Talk:Chris Young (baseball pitcher) the player task force categories are not working yet. TonyTheTiger ( talk/ cont/ bio) 06:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Are we supposed to use 'yyyy in baseball' wikilinks in articles every time a year is mentioned (or at least the first time each year is mentioned in the article)? Personally, I'm not sure that I see the point, but it seems to be done with some regularity. For example, when the sentence is "Wedge was drafted by the Boston Red Sox in the third round of the 1989 amateur draft.", should I wikilink 1989 as 1989? While I'm at it, is this the appropriate way to wikilink the first-year player draft? -- Sanfranman59 02:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to start a major project relating to individual MLB seasons. Any help by anyone would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Soxrock 00:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm still looking for sources for minor league players. I posted about this before, but never really got an answer.
The baseball cube has a list of ballplayers who are alumni of University High School (LA) [12]. Unfortunately, they only have draft records and no info on whether or not they actually played. This came up because someone added Damon Farmer with info about his career, and I have a feeling that the baseball cube's records are incomplete--that many of the players on the list did play--that they weren't just drafted and that was it.
But unless these people have wiki articles (which they don't), I need a source for both their attendance at the school and their notability. the baseball cube gives me the former, but not the latter--I need sources for their actually playing in the minor leagues. Can anyone help?
Also--there seem to be some professional women's baseball players who attended Uni as well. Do you have notability standards for women ball players?
See the alumni list in question: List of notable alumni of University High School (Los Angeles, California) Miss Mondegreen talk 01:40, May 26 2007 (UTC)
The members of the Baseball Players Task Force have been discussing a set of naming conventions for baseball player articles. I have posted the draft copy here. Please feel free to discuss/propose changes at the talk page for the draft copy. Thanks, Caknuck 04:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is quite inaccurate in that it says "the top 8 teams are given National Seeds which guarantees them home field advantage (provided they continue to win) throughout the tournament until the Women's College World Series." This is completely untrue in that no team is "guaranteed" home field advantage. A number of top 8 national seeds have been sent on the road. One example is Texas A&M being sent to UMass in 2006 despite being given a national seed. I can't really think of a better way to describe how home field advantage is gained through since it has quite a bit to do with how close other tournament teams are (regionality) and facilities. If anyone else has a good knowledge of softball NCAA tournament play, and can phrase this better, I think it would be good. Gwright86 09:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested in started a new task force for college baseball. I was going to create a new project at first, but I feel that is unnecessary considering there is already a baseball project. So how do I go about getting permission to start a college baseball task force? Thanks for the help. Seancp 00:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I just want to call to attention that Image:Baseball (ball) closeup.jpg is being deleted. I am making a replacement svg image to replace the ball.++ aviper2k7++ 05:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
How's this:
++ aviper2k7++ 01:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Not bad. Here's a photo of an actual major league baseball, taken by an editor:
Baseball Bugs 05:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This user is a
participant in WikiProject Baseball. |
Can you guys here at this WikiProject please try to regulate these categories so they are only used on players that appeared in a major league game for the team, and not just spring training? I keep seeing these cats. pop up on players who just went to spring training for the team and never appeared in an official major league game. -- CFIF ☎ ⋐ 16:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed a lot of pages like 1901 Baltimore Orioles season. Are these part of some WikiProject? Fbdave 19:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I personally do not see a need for a listing of any starting rotation, since rotations are continuously changing due to injury and other circumstance, so I put it up for speedy deletion. There could possibly be others, but I don't know if any exist, but I simply don't see the value of such a thing. DandyDan2007 06:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
What’s the point of putting stand-alone tables that lists a pitcher’s statistics from every start of the season. It not only clutters up an article but provides rather unsubstantial information (unless interpreted or analyzed), that can be found on other official websites that specialize in statistics (ex baseball-reference.com, mlb.com, or espn.com). Additionally, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a sports desk; it does not need second-by-second fantasy sports style updates on their favorite pitchers or players. -- ShadowJester07 ►Talk 00:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
In the case of the Ty Cobb page, for example, MLB.com has to be cited, because certain other websites insist on posting private research figures for Cobb's career as if they were the official numbers, instead of posting the actual official figures shown on MLB.com. Baseball Bugs 16:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I've recently started working on Seattle Mariners seasons, finishing 2006 and working on 2005 at the moment, wondering if it would be worth it to add the overall team statistics underneath the player statistics, and if anybody would be willing to do this for other teams season pages? -- Nightfreak 23:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I was looking at the page we have for Luke Hochevar and I saw that he has an MLB player infobox, which is missing some data such as "debut date" since he has never debuted. It looks stupid and it is misleading so I'm deleting it. But I was wondering if I'm right in doing so? Are there any "rules" here on that topic?
FYI, at Category talk:Minor league baseball players#Players with long and notable minor league careers, I've proposed a minor change in the rules for categorizing players in Category:Minor league baseball players. I would like to allow the category to include players like Buzz Arlett who are mostly known for their minor league careers, even though they played briefly in the majors. I'd appreciate getting your feedback on this proposal. BRMo 23:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I recently was able to get Happy Chandler promoted to good article, but the weakest section of the article deals with his time as commissioner of baseball. Would a member (or members) of this project like to help expand this section with an eye toward making the article FA-worthy? If so, please leave a message on my talk page. Thanks. Acdixon 18:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Though I'm not a member of the project, I noticed something that, as a baseball fan, piqued my interest. Earlier today, an editor changed the infobox on Rochester Red Wings from {{ Minor league team}} to {{ MiLB infobox}}. I have no objections to this (IMO, the MiLB infobox, since it was apparently derived from the MLB box, looks much better than the former), but it seems redundant to have two infoboxes that perform the same task. From the looks of it, the number of transclusions to {{ Minor league team}} is much higher than the number to {{ MiLB infobox}}, likely because the latter is relatively new. Which should be used? I prefer the latter, but mostly, I just wanted to bring this point up and let the project decide. -- TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 20:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone put a lot of effort making a nice 2007 Major League Baseball Draft article. However making articles for all the picks is just spending a lot of time writing garbage that will be delted, and rightly so. Being drafted does not make someone notable enough for an article. This should be elementary. For more discussion on the topic please visit the Talk page there, but I wanted to bring this to the attention of everyone here. Ekillian 05:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone help?
I asked Tecmobowl not to edit war after he removed a Fangraphs url -- which I pointed out has unique information -- from the Sandy Koufax external links section. See [13]; a summary glance at it will reveal a number of unique categories of stats. Instead, he continued to RV.
I asked him concurrently to move discussion of the issue to the talk page, instead of RVing and edit warring. Instead, he again deleted the link. [14]
In addition, while he completely failed to respond by talking on a talk page as I had suggested, he instead went to a number of additional pages that I had edited, in short order, deleting urls that similarly have unique information, such as ESPN, Baseball Almanac, Baseball Cube, and Baseball Library, from the external links. See diffs at John Grabow, Jason Marquis, and Brad Ausmus. And even as I have been writing this I see that he has made similar innapropriate deletions to Moe Berg, Bo Belinsky, José Bautista, Morrie Arnovich, Cal Abrams, Ben Zeskind, Josh Appell, Ryan Braun, John Grabow, Sam Fuld, Brian Horwitz, and Aaron Rifkin.
I wrote all this to him on his talk page, asking him to desist, discuss, and bring in a third party to discuss if necessary. Instead, he has ignored me, and has now deleted urls from even more baseball players. See Mike Lieberthal, Sid Gordon, Harry Feldman, Mike Epstein, Harry Danning, Lou Boudreau, and Ron Blomberg.
I believe that this behavior is highly disruptive and innapropriate. Can anyone here help? Much obliged. I've raised this all on Tecmobowl's talk page -- [15] -- so if you wish to help that may be a good place to go. Thanks.-- Epeefleche 08:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Centralization of Discussion. Given that discussion has taken place on various pages, I am moving some it from User talk:Tecmobowl, User talk:Nishkid64, and User talk:Wizardman to this page, inserting it above chronologically, and formatting this page somewhat for readability.
Failure to Discuss rather than Edit War. I stand by what I said above as to Tecmobowl's failure to respond to my multiple requests to stop edit warring, and instead discuss this on a talk page. He failed to do so, his comments to the contrary above notwithstanding. He instead simply continued to delete urls, with his only comment being the unsupported one inserted in the edit summary of his changes that there is nothing unique about the Fansgraphs url. His first comment on a talk page was the one above at 08:40, 31 May 2007, in which he incorrectly stated that he had not failed to communicate.
Even worse, since I wrote my above comments to Tecmobowl and the community, even while this discussion has been going on, he has continued to delete what are now hundreds of such urls, including urls in the bios of Barney Pelty, Jake Pitler, Scott Radinsky, Jimmie Reese, Dave Roberts, Al Rosen, Goodwin Rosen, Art Shamsky, Larry Sherry, Norm Sherry, Moe Solomon, George Stone, Steve Stone, Steve Wapnick, Phil Weintraub, Steve Yeager, Eddie Zosky, Gabe Kapler, Matt Ford, Al Levine, Scott Schoeneweis, Adam Stern, Craig Breslow, Adam Greenberg, Ian Kinsler, Scott Feldman, Mike Koplove, Shawn Green, and Justin Wayne. Can anyone stop him from continuing this disruptive behavior while this discussion is going on and, if possible, have those revisions reverted? Thanks.-- Epeefleche 19:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Failure to Discuss rather than Edit War. To again clarify, I stand by all my above statements about my requesting that Tecmobowl stop what are now his hundreds of deletions and reverts, and instead discuss this on a talk page, and his failure to do so. Instead he continuing his disruptive activity. The vast majority of his deletions took place after my entreaties. He failed to make an appearance on a talk page until the above-indicated one. And then, he continued to delete hundreds of urls during the discussion. Interested readers, if they exist, can look at the diffs and see that I made no misrepresentations, but that Tecmobowl did and continues to do so.
And even now, at 19:55, May 31, 2007, [16] Tecmobowl deleted a fangraphs entry on this article page, writing "removed ... a site that does not seem to provide the unique information that was claimed." Despite agreement in this discussion by all other than him to the contrary.
Consensus vs. Boldness. Tecmobowl appears from his above comments to not be terribly partial to consensus. As that would not be "bold." Tecmobowl indicates that instead he has to be convinced. Is there any way that anyone can share to keep Tecmobowl from engaging in activity that he believes is bold, and therefore acceptable, but that is actually highly disruptive? Perhaps one of the admins has some thoughts here? We are already suffering from 100s of deletions, he fails to RV them, and Tecmobowl indicates that his intention unless he is convinced otherwise is to continue to engage in this behavior.
Falsehoods. Tecmobowl, with what I am bound to assume is good faith intent, asserts that I have "reverted every single edit" he performed. That is a complete falsehood. Anyone looking at a sampling of the above urls to which I cited can see that what I am saying is true, and that what Tecmobowl is saying is an untruth. Unfortunately, his actions have now risen to become one of the two issues here -- the more distateful one to deal with, but one that interferes with our making Wiki a better tool, and therefore an important issue.
As to his above comment about my having added Fangraphs today to 2 players, that is true.
URLs. As to the second and more interesting issue, I am following with interest the discussion of others as to the uniqueness of the info in the Fangraphs url, for example (the dispute that started this entire matter), and the appropriateness of including urls (in external links or elsewhere) that present information that is relevant and not redundant. I will chime in on this at some point, but wanted to consider what the experts have to say before I do.-- Epeefleche 01:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that this is a very good starting point, Sanfranman. I've looked at the 4 urls that you mention, strictly from the standpoint of uniqueness of their stats as they appear on the urls' player pages. Of course some of the urls also offer unique functionality, leader pages, bios, etc. But there is enough that is unique in the stats themselves, IMHO. You will find my analysis a number of paragraphs below. -- Epeefleche 22:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
You are half correct Miss M. One focus of the above conversation is indeed Tecmo's behavior -- his deletion of 100s of urls, first while ignoring entreaties to discuss on a talk page, and then concurrent with a talk page discussion that I started. He did this even after two admins suggested, at the very outset, that he had deleted appropriate external links -- and that he should not do so without discussion.
The second focus of the above conversation consisted of discussion by a number of editors as to why they thought the urls should not be deleted. I gather that you missed that. I'm confused as to why. You indicate above that the discussion makes "no attempt at discussing what sort of links are acceptable etc." But if you look at the above you will note just such a discussion by a number of editors. I, for example, pointed out that Fangraphs "has unique information," and that the same was the case with others that he had deleted, "such as ESPN, Baseball Almanac, Baseball Cube, and Baseball Library." Admin Nishkid said: "I see no problems with the Fangraphs link. It provides unique statistical information that can't be found at Baseball-Reference or any other baseball statistical website." Admin Wizardman wrote: "I ... before putting the links back myself, actually viewed them to see if they were unique. Based on the information they offered, most of the links you've been deleting have in fact been unique." Editor Allansohn said above: "See WP:NOT#LINK which states that 'Wikipedia articles are not: Mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article'. In no way, shape or form do the presence of these links violate Wikipedia policy. As can be seen from the discussion here, there is no consensus that these links should be removed." Baseball Bugs indicated "I use some of them (such as Baseball-Reference and Baseball-Almanac) frequently; and (2) they are not duplicates of each other, each offers unique info, including info different from MLB.com." Given that you indicate in the heading to your comments that you are a "really uninvolved editor," I'm not clear how you completely missed all of that -- and just got the gist of Tecmo's take on things. But of course I assume good faith, and I imagine that with all of this commentary, discussion is difficult to follow. In any event, I hope this helps, and as you know the substantive conversation is developed even further below by Sanfranman and others.-- Epeefleche 10:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Sanfranman's above observation.-- Epeefleche 22:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Sanfranman's above thoughtful analysis. -- Epeefleche 22:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
As I detail below, Fangraphs also has a great deal of unique information. -- Epeefleche 22:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Procedure -- going forward. I've discussed above Tecmobowl's failure to discuss, edit warring, and rampant deletion of important urls -- even during this discussion. I'm open to suggestions as to how to remedy this. As well as to what actions, if any, we might take with regard to violations and threatened violations of Wiki policy.
I reiterate my request that Tecmobowl now, during the pendency of this discussion, restore the urls that he deleted from the talk pages.
Questioned URLs. I see nothing in Wiki policy that entitles Tecmobowl to, in even the worst case, do anything other than tag a url that he questions with the
template. Blanket deletion is not acceptable. The above discussion suggests that even such tags may not be appropriate with regard to some or all of the urls discussed here.
Fangraphs. Tecmobowl -- please let us know whether you agree with the above general consensus of the uniqueness of the Fansgraph urls. If you do, kindly restore all of those urls that you have deleted -- in this case, without tags.
What Should be Linked. Wiki policy provides that we "should" link sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to amount of detail, "such as professional athlete statistics."
In addition, sites "with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article."
Other considerations are whether the url is useful, informative, and factual.
I believe that the urls at issue here, some of which are statistical in nature, others of which are biographical in nature, and still others of which (such as Fangraphs) are hybrid in nature, all meet these criteria.
Link Farm. As to Tecmobowl's above observation that Wiki is not a link farm, I note that a link farm is "any group of web pages that all hyperlink to every other page in the group." That is not the issue here, as User:Wizardman points out above.
Counting Links in other Bios. Tecmobowl suggests that we should determine the appropriate number of links by looking at the number of external links in other players' bios. To demonstrate the fallacy of Tecmobowl's approach, one might glance at the article on Willie Mays. You guessed it -- zero external links. (I'm assuming, for purposes of this discussion, that the Say Hey Kid qualifies as notable in Tecmobowl's view). The fact that no one has added links to other bios, or that deletionists such as Tecmobowl have removed the links, carries no weight in this discussion.
In addition, if someone has interest in a less-accomplished player, and adds links to that player's bio, there is no reason to decrease the helpfulness of that article by deleting such links simply because no one has demonstrated similar interest in improving the Willie Mays article, for example (or that of another notable player).
Redundancy. I for one have no problem with the deletion of a url that is wholly redundant, in content and form, of another included url. If any exist here. I'm not aware of that being the case. Tecmobowl glosses over this issue by saying above that 7 urls that he points to: "are all essentially the same: statistics sites." He fails to recognize that while they all contain statistics, many (such as Fangraphs) certainly contain different statistics, and the others contain statistics that are presentable, formattable, and/or accessable differently. -- Epeefleche 20:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Low-Hanging Fruit. Sanfranman59 has identified 4 links that in his view offer enough information to warrant including them in virtually every major league player article. For starters, some thoughts on those urls. Once we have addressed them, we can more easily address the others, keeping our eye out for any that are completely duplicative in both content and format. Bottom line, I agree with Sanfranman, and with the other editors' comments that I have summarized below.
I believe that Sanfranman's proposed grid, with a row for each web site and columns for each type of information presented on the web site's pages (basic statistics, advanced/sabermetric-type statistics, splits, batter vs. pitcher stats, biographical information, minor league/college stats, transaction history, graphical displays, game logs, player news, etc), will be helpful and supportive of the view that these urls each contain unique information. -- Epeefleche 09:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Consensus? I believe that the above reflects a degree of consensus (if not unanimity) about the above four urls. It also demonstrates with specificity that each url contains largely unique information. If anyone has any further comments with regard to them, please weigh in. The next step will be to take a look at some of the other urls that have been mentioned. -- Epeefleche 22:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
It appears that we now have a 7-2 vote in favor of keeping Fangraphs. And Tecmo's reason for not keeping it -- his suggestion that it is not unique -- has been disproven.
He has also indicated that he does not now have a problem with Baseball Cube, Baseball Reference, and MLB. I would ask Tecmo to restore all ELs of those 3 urls which he has deleted. It clearly will be too much work for the rest of us to find them, now that they have been deleted, and since he deleted them without consensus I would suggest that it is only proper that he restore them. This, in fact, is one of the reasons that I would suggest that when there is a dispute about baseball urls, the rule should be (indeed, I think it is, as with deleting articles) that we keep the url pending conclusion of the discussion. It is easier to then find the article and delete the url -- we need only do a search. To find the articles that formerly had such urls, which Tecmo has deleted, is a more difficult exercise.-- Epeefleche 07:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
As far as I can see, BR-Bullpen is a wiki. Are we considering this to be a reliable source? (I lean towards no on this). If not, does it have value as an external link?-- Kathy A. 15:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
"let the bully have his way"
"I see nothing in Wiki policy that entitles Tecmobowl to, in even the worst case, do anything other than tag a url that he questions with the {{ linkfarm}} template. Blanket deletion is not acceptable. The above discussion suggests that even such tags may not be appropriate in some or all of the urls discussed here."
Apparantly no one can undersand why Tecmo won't respond to comments on his talk page. I can't imagine that the article talk pages, oh or here might be a better place. Why don't we take a straw poll and find out who watched Tecmo's talk page. Let me tell you now that unless you canvass watchers of Tecmo's talk page to come and vote here, watchers of this page will still win, if only by the margin of my vote. Theoretically the interested editors would watch baseball pages, and not be obsessed with Tecmo. Why would the discussion take place there? Not to mention, that certain editors can't seem to discuss issues politely, and are taking that beyond this conversation--in fact, interjecting themselves into other conversations Tecmo is having.
[21]
And let's not forget Epeefleche's canvassing for help in his side of the revert war--asking other editors to come and revert Tecmo's edits, because yes, you only opened discussion here after you'd used all of your reverts, and in fact, already been reported (incorrectly) for a 3RR.
Do I see evidence of abysmal behavoir? Yes. Blockable behavoir? Yes. On Tecmo's part? Not by a longshot.
Now about the content. First, I think everyone needs to really READ Wikipedia:External links. It's a great page. It has lists of what to include, what not to include and what to do if y'all can't get along. That whole linkfarm thing that you're slicing and dicing and saying "oh, but articles aren't linkfarms"...oh, I'll just quote:
Long lists of links are not appropriate: Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links. If you find a long list of links in an article, you can tag the "External links" section with the {{ linkfarm}} template. Where editors have not reached consensus on an appropriate list of links, a link to a well chosen web directory category could be used until such consensus can be reached. The Open Directory Project is often a neutral candidate, and may be added using the {{ dmoz}} template.
He was not "entitled" to tag or delete? What? First, we don't recieve entitlement to edit from policies and guidelines. We don't sit, waiting patiently for the policies and guidelines to give us permission for what to edit next. It's an open wiki! We have policies and guidelines to GUIDE us. To tell us what things to strive for, what things to avoid. Not to provide us with the entitlement to edit.
This guideline advises editors to tag these lists--at the least. Or, you can be bold and be helpful and do the cleanup yourself, especially if your an editor who knows the article. Tags help editors who see a problem and don't know how to deal with it alert people to the problem. Most of Tecmo's edits were clean-cut, removing things that were specifically not ok, or were duplicates and he's discussing the ones that people have problems with.
UNIQUE
Now let's clear up something else. Everyone's going on about this or that is UNIQUE. What does the word unique come from? It comes from this line in WP:EL:
"Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article."
Unique information. Not compared to the other links. Not compared to the current status of the article. Information that is unique and that would never be included in a featured article. External links aren't sources--Tecmo's right, you guys are treating articles like link farms, using the external links to tell people what you haven't bothered to write. Most of the stuff he's removing: they're prefectly adequate sources--you just have to write the stuff and add them as footnotes and references. You have to write the additional articles and add see alsos. External links are--you liked this article? See the complete stats here and the official website here, and an interview here. Stuff that can't be included or shouldn't be included. External links are not--we couldn't tell the basic story of this person's life so here's the obituary and here's what these websites say. That's a cop-out and that's why the guidelines are so strict.
Obituaries
Speaking of obituaries--not all are ok external links. Here are the guidelines that would apply:
- Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons.
- Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.
- Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.
Is there something particular about the obituary that makes it special that can't be included? Interviews or anecdotes? In this case, both copyright, length, inappropriate--whatever, all of these things would keep this information from the article, but it would still be inportant information. However, if there's nothing in the obituary that wouldn't be in the article if it became a featured article--then it's not an appropriate link. I have a feeling that it's that criteria that exclude a lot of these external links. It's not that they aren't great sources--it's that the material should be in the article, and that they should be listed as notes or references instead.
Choosing a statistics site
WP:EL says that masses of detail that can't be incorperated (in this case, that's statistics) are good--duplicate links are not. This wikiproject should choose a site, taking into consideration access, longevity and the quality of the site. Also, some players might have more or better statistics elsewhere, so use a different site for them. Keep the WP:EL guidelines in mind when choosing a site--you have a choice here. Something where access is limited is not ok, and if the site is often reconfigured etc, or it's not a stable link, that's a bad choice too.
#12: Open wikis
"Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors."
That's up to the wikiproject to decide. But look carefully at the other requirements. I have a feeling that even if it's decided to be a reliable source, it's not a good external link. The two are entirely seperate.
Now, about that shoeless joe link. If this ( [22]) is in fact the link that Tecmo has been adding--that's problematic. I see no text other than Lorem Ipsum, which is highly suspect. Tecmo is right--sites that sell stuff are allowed, but the content would have to be, well, unique, something I couldn't judge as I didn't see anything other than cards and stats. WP:EL says that there's generally something that's not pushing a product and it's usually right.
There is a very clear, highly specific guideline on exactly what to do with external links. I'd like to see all future conversation just going over that and how to move forward. Does the project think x is stable... what articles need expanding--maybe it would help the articles if when ELs were removed from the article, they were listed on the talk page so that editors of the article had a starting list of sources to expand the article with. But if editors are going to continue making personal attacks and continuing their bad behavoir, I'll take those editors to ANI myself just to get them to shutup. I really don't care who started it or if Tecmo was behaving badly days ago (though I have still to see no evidence of that--I don't want to either, move on!) He's not the one behaving badly now and his explanations of removal of links seem in compliance with WP:EL. I disagree with him on certain things--like his explanation of numbers of external links in articles by importance, and if that blacksoxfan link is being added, that link is a problem, but I find the rest of his editing to be good clean-up work.
Remember, external links are not sources. Take a look at your FA articles. They have appropriate external links, both in number and content. They aren't using them as a replacment for sources and neither should the smallest stub. Though the Sandy Koufax EL section needs work. Some of those links look like they probably duplicate information, and most of them are missing explanations of what they are. Look at the Ted Radcliff article for an example of what an external link section should look like. Miss Mondegreen talk 01:12, June 2 2007 (UTC)
Tecmo today, having returned after being blocked for 48 hours for 2 violations of the 3RR while deleting Fansgraphs urls, [23] continues to delete Fangraphs urls. [24] This, despite the above discussion and 7-2 vote in favor of not deleting Fangraphs. And despite the 69 unique categories of data. Can someone suggest how we stop this behavior? -- Epeefleche 15:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Miss M--as the heading here suggests, the focus under the above heading is limited to how we enforce violations of consensus regarding Fangraphs. If you have comments in that regard, please share them. If you have comments about other matters discussed in an earlier headings, as seems to be the case, for them to be read by interested parties you might do well to insert them there. Whereupon I will be pleased to respond to any that call for a response. To discuss them here, instead, would be to scatter the discussion and needlessly make it difficult to follow. As far as discussing Baseball Almanac, etc., as you know from the above we are first seeking to determine some urls that we agree are appropriate for inclusion. We started with mlb.com, baseball reference, baseball cube, and fangraphs. The discussion is under an above header. We will move on to other urls once a consensus has been reached with regard to those. I imagine (and I would support) that any urls wholly redundant in data and format be deleted. We have not seen that to be the case yet, however, and it indubitably is not the case with Fangraphs.
You might clarify your points above as to Baseball Cube and Baseball Reference, under the appropriate header. Are you suggesting, in opposition to Tecmo, that they should be deleted? As to your further comment about Baseball Cube, Tecmo has indeed at times deleted it.
Tecmo had now been blocked for the 3rd time in 3 days for violating Wiki's 3RR, this time with regard to Kevin Youkilis.
He is also blatantly violating consensus as well, as is demonstrated above.
One last point. You say, "Maybe all of the statistics sites frame the same information slightly differently or provide slightly different information." I'm not sure whether you understand how dramatically that understates the situation. There is nothing "slightly different" about dozens of categories of Fangraphs data. I'm frankly astounded that you, someone commenting on this page and therefore one would think at least rudimentarily aware of the nature of the statistics that we are discussing, would make such a wrong-headed comment. -- Epeefleche 07:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Miss M--The focus under the above heading (.4) is limited to how we enforce violations of consensus regarding Fangraphs. You are the only one discussing anything else in this section. When you discuss other urls where they are discussed above, I shall be happy to respond to any comments that call for responses. Scattering discussion in the manner that you are doing only serves to confuse other readers. I'm not sure what your view is on Fangraphs, but I gather from your commments that baseball statistics are not your area of expertise.-- Epeefleche 09:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I clarified the heading given that it was not clear enough for you. The content here has always been limited, other than by you, to the content in the heading. No need to use words like bull. It would be appreciated if you would elevate your conversation. Should you choose to discuss this where others will read it, along with other comments on the same topic, I will be happy to engage you in discussion of your curious view that we should pare these down to one one statistics site, and your other views. I'll spare others the need, however, to follow this discussion all around in disorganized scattered fashion as they would have to if I opened up substantive discussion here. -- Epeefleche 15:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Holderca1. I agree that we need to decide which websites are to be included across the board. Putting it into a template sounds like a great idea, if beyond my own abiities. And adding it to every player bio sounds like much work for someone, but also sounds like a positive approach. As you will see above in the section "low hanging fruit," some of us have been trying to effect just that sort of forward movement, starting first with the 4 urls Baseball Reference, Baseball Cube, MLB, and Fangraphs. If you would like to add your voice to that consensus building effort, please do. Once that has been done, we will be in a position to address some of the other urls that have been mentioned, and seek consensus on them as well. I agree as well with your comments on WP:EL.-- Epeefleche 20:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
While I appreciate the attempts of certain editors to include this site unilaterally, the discussion here did not reach a consensus. At this time, the link has been removed from a portion of the articles it has been included upon. If anyone would like to discuss the merits of this link, please feel free to do so. DO NOT DISCUSS who said what and why and when and all that...this is about the content, and nothing more. Please familiarize yourself with WP:EL and at least one users response on this discussion. The community is larger than those that edit baseball pages. Also, bare in mind that if the information is largely equivalent to other sites already accepted by the community, that impacts the said links usefulness. // Tecmobowl 16:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm in the process of putting it back into order, but I would appreciate it if some people would help me with the upkeep. Leave a message on Portal talk:Baseball if you're interested. ¿SFGi Д nts! ☺ ☻ 21:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
We really need people who can speak French to edit the fr:Projet:Baseball on the French Wikipedia. Most of the hall-of-famers and current stars like Justin Morneau and Torii Hunter do not have articles on there. If anyone is interest contact User talk:Mglovesfun. Mglovesfun 21:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone at WikiProject Baseball please check on the term, to be it seems to be a work of fiction, but someone in the know might be able to shed a little light on the matter. If it is fiction, then it's a quite likely nomination for a speedy delete I think.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by NigelJ ( talk • contribs) 01:59, 25 March 2007.
Hi, I apologize if this is the wrong place to ask this question, but I was wondering if there has been any discussion of creating a "This Date in Baseball" box on the front page of the portal. Does anyone know about this, and would people like to do this? There are certainly plenty of places to find information like this. Msmays 17:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
This is beyond out of control and bordering insanity. No more discussion, you all had your chance numerous times, but it seems that is too much to ask. Seriously folks, I don't get it, for example, in one breath Tecmo complains that the conversation is split up over multiple locations, then he procedes to make a new section and starts discussing there. That is just one example of the insanity that has occurred. Okay, this is it. Here is the straw poll, put either support or oppose, no discussion with the votes. -- Holderca1 12:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
External links to be included on player pages:
Support
Oppose
Neutral
All four of the sites serve important and separate purposes.
Thanks, Caknuck 19:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
As suggested by the mediator above, I have filed at [29], the Wikipedia:Community sanction noticeboard, under User:Tecmobowl, a request for an indefinite block.-- Epeefleche 20:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Just a heads-up that I've proposed modifying the "25/40-man roster" section of Major League Baseball transactions here. Thanks in advance for any and all feedback. -- Sanfranman59 20:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
You guys/gals should seperate all your team pages (like you've done with Montreal Expos and Washington Nationals). It cuts down on 'bloated' historic information about teams. It's how we do it at Wikipedia: WikiProject Ice Hockey. Just my opinon. GoodDay 17:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
On further review, I see that teams like the Braves and the Orioles give their original establishment date and then say "based in ____ since ____". That's how the Expos-Nats article should be done also... especially as the Expos have 35 years of history and the Nats have only 3, so far. The Nats should say "established 1969... based in Washington since 2005." In fact, it does. It features the Expos prominently and points to another article for details. Arguably, the same kind of spinoff could be done for other multi-city teams... or even one-city teams, which the Bears basically are (forgetting the Decatur cup of coffee) as they have a spinoff history article. Baseball Bugs 20:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
If I may throw in my two cents, I have to agree with GoodDay. While it might be true that the LA Dodgers have embraced the history of the Brooklyn Dodgers, its also true that people in Brooklyn have not embraced the history of the LA Dodgers. People in Brooklyn who remember the Dodgers probably do not want to look up Brooklyn Dodgers and find it under the Los Angeles Dodgers. I think one other consideration to be made is that if articles were separated, it would prevent them from being so large that they would eventually have to be separated. Even when it comes to the Seattle Pilots, they should have their own article. Don't forget, there are articles on the Louisville Colonels and the original Baltimore Orioles and no one alive remembers those teams. DandyDan2007 20:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I have suggested on
Talk:Los Angeles Dodgers and
Talk:Montreal Expos that historic incarnations' pages can be subtitled with an infobox reading
Team X1 / Franchise:
Team X2
In the end, I don't think long pages are good, so spinning info off onto separate pages is user-friendly. It also encourages the expansion of said articles. There is a related discussion going on at
Talk:Dallas_Stars where many good points are made for retaining separate articles on franchise incarnations.
--
Exshpos
21:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
This discussion kind-of started up a couple of sections, but it seems a good idea to give it a new start here. Many MLB team articles are much longer than Wikipedia's recommended length of 40kb (it was recently pointed out that the Yankees article is 108kb!). In my opinion, this is not so much of a problem as it might be. If we were talking about 108kb of solid text, then that is most definitely too long. But these team pages have accumulated quite a number of tables and infoboxes and endnotes and other assorted information, which add to the length in kb but not to the average reader's burden. Personally, I think most of this information should stay on the main team pages, where it is most accessible. The main exception is the "season-by-season record", which gets exceedingly long for the century-old teams and throws up a barrier against the casual reader getting to whatever comes after it. Can't the record be put on a side page? As for team histories, the pages I've seen are mostly all right, though some vigorous editing is needed to keep a concise historical perspective on recent events, rather than giving a detailed blow-by-blow account of each season. That's my take on the topic. Bugs? Yankees fans? -- BlueMoonlet 06:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to attempt to get some community consensus on the unofficial nicknames that have been cropping up on MLB team pages. As User:Seidenstud pointed out here, the lead section "should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points..." Furthermore, "the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources." Alternate names such as "The Boys in Blue" for the Royals or "The Bless You Boys" for the Tigers are not essential information belonging in a concise overview. Most of these names are contractions or journalistic flourishes and, though some may be used by the team for marketing, they are quite simply not the team's proper name. If editors think it is encyclopedic to note that the Rockies are sometimeis called "The Rocks," then further down in the page might be a fine place to do it. For some unofficial nicknames, such as A's and D-backs, I don't mind having them in the lead paragraph, as they are commonly used to properly refer to the team, rather than as playful flourishes. But the infobox should be reserved for proper information.
To give a brief history, I informed User:Silent Wind of Doom (who, as far as I can tell, originated all of the edits I am opposing) of my opinion and invited him to discuss the issue before I took any action. After several days with no response, I went ahead and made the edits. Some have been reverted, and most of those by User:Silent Wind of Doom or his ally User:Baseball Bugs, but there does not seem to have been a general outcry over what I did, and there also seems to be some support. I have no reason to doubt everyone's good faith, so I think the best thing to do is discuss the matter here and then take a vote. -- BlueMoonlet 15:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello. Silent Wind of Doom here. Just going to add all the discussion from talk pages, as has taken place up to now:
BlueMoonlet's original post:
Hi SWoD. I am sorry to say it, but I think the "nicknames" that you have added to the pages of all 30 teams in Major League Baseball have got to go. They are unsourced and unofficial, and do not belong in an encyclopedia. Names like "Redbirds", "Blue Crew", and "BoSox" are journalistic flourishes; it is always clear from the context what is meant, and a reader who had not heard of such names does not need to be told to use them by an encyclopedia. Names like "the Rocks" and "the Bravos" practically seem like you made them up just to have something for each team. There are a few names, such as "Bronx Bombers", that have enough usage to perhaps merit mention somewhere in the article. But even these do not belong next to the actual team name, in the introductory paragraph or the infobox.
In conclusion, "Dodgers" and "Yankees" are official team nicknames. Any other nickname is unnecessary to identify the team. You are likely to disagree with me here; as far as I can tell, you are the one who added all these nicknames to the pages. If that is so, then I would like for you to choose the forum in which we can discuss the matter. -- BlueMoonlet 00:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
SWoD's response:
Forgive me. It's been a rough week or so, and your comments on my discussion page have slipped my mind. As you've mentioned I would, I greatly disagree with you. The "official nicknames" as you call them, are known as that harkening back to the time when the teams were officially known as Baltimore, Cincinnati, and Chicago AL and names like Orioles, Reds, and Cubs were "nicknames" used by fans and the media. Nowadays, these aren't nicknames, they're just the names of the teams. The nicknames are names which are used by the fans, the media, and, in most cases, the team and it's broadcasters. You've already noted the circulation of "Bronx Bombers". "A's" is more frequently used than Athletics. "Blue Crew" is what the dodgers are referred to in the name of the team's organization-owned fan club. "Cubbies" is used not only by fans, but by the organization during the singing of "Take Me Out to the Ball Game".
These nicknames are information about the team, and should not be excluded. First of all, they are other names for the subject, and those go in the lead, more often than not in bold like the subject's standard or full name. The nicknames usually take up a small block of text in the lead, and are sometimes taken care of in one sentence or in a few words in a set of parenthesis. I think that, when you say "They are also known as" or something to that effect before mentioning the names, they're in enough context for people to figure out what they mean. The article isn't telling people to use them, but it does explain that they are other names for the team, and in many instances explains the meaning behind them. As for the infobox, that is one nickname, the most widely used one, that we put there. The only instances where the most widely used one is not the one displayed is when it comes to the Red Sox and the White Sox, where they share the nickname "The Sox". I have not added all the nicknames for these teams, and, in fact, I've been joined by other wikipedians who want these names to stay on their pages. The White Sox and Cubs pages have repeatedly tried to add more nicknames to the infobox, but more than one makes it too crowded. The Mets page's people have already reverted your changes, with no prompting by me. I've not added all the nicknames, and didn't even know of most of them until the good people of each page's own little community revealed them. In fact, I didn't even add them all to the infoboxes.
The nicknames have never been fought against (the only exception being the Braves), and have, in fact, been added to. The people have embraced them, changing them, if need be. They are not unsourced and unencyclopedic. No name has been added by me unless I had firsthand knowledge, or have researched the name and seen that it is used by the media or the fans. Most, if not all, are used by the organization at the stadium, on merchandize, by broadcasters, or in websites. I believe that's enough to be considered "official". These things are information about the team, and as such, should be included. -- Silent Wind of Doom 04:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
A few comments by Baseball Bugs which have shown up this past day on SWoD's talk page:
BlueMoonlet's final comments on SWoD's page:
That is the discussion up to now. As I do not have time at the moment, I will adress BlueMoonlet's new comments at a later time today. -- Silent Wind of Doom 16:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
First, and foremost, as he said previously, I am not "allied" with Baseball Bugs. In fact, noticing his name on a few edits was the only relationship I had with him up until his support on this matter.
Now that I've gotten that out of the way, on to the task at hand. The lead section of the article does concisely sum things up, give a little overview of the subject, but it is also a place to give such information as alternative names. The nicknames are alternate names. It's just a short little aside that mentions these names. Now, given, there are instances, such as the Yankees page (where it has been accepted), where it's going to be longer, but most lead sections for nicknames are going to be smaller than the one in the Cubs page, which you seem to have accepted. As for the infobox, I definitely think that "A's" has to be there, because it is used more than "Athletics". Nicknames such a "Bronx Bombers", "Cubbies", "Blue Crew", "D-Backs", "Jays", and "The Tribe" are all engrained in the organization, merchandizing, even the uniforms. "Bless You Boys", "Nats", and "Blake Street Bombers" are all engrained in the history and traditions. The nicknames are not arbitrary labels. They are a part of the organization, a tool of the media, and a part of the hearts of fans. These mean something, and should be given space in the infobox. They are an important part of the team's culture. As they are a name, I think they should be tagged on with the name, and I think that, in most instances, this is simple and non-intrusive. The infobox is just one little line, an also known as, and it's being kept to one name there so as not to cause clutter. The only thing that I regret is the fact that I always finish and then never have a good way to end. Maybe I should just do what Frank Caliendo suggested Bush do, and say "The end." -- Silent Wind of Doom 04:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, are we any closer to a solution? I'd be willing to accept an NFL-like solution for the infobox, in exchange for removing alternate nicknames from the top of the infobox, and removing the more playful nicknames (exceptions include A's, D-backs, others to be discussed) from the lead paragraphs. Is that acceptable to others? Shall we do the same for stadiums? All we need is someone who knows enough about writing templates to do the job. -- BlueMoonlet 17:08, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
No, no, no. "Cards" is not the team's official proper name. Yes, it is a legitimate alternate name used by the team, which is why it is prominently mentioned in the lead paragraph as well as in the infobox. But it is in fact an "other nickname". There is no need for further multiplication of categories. Hopefully Agne27 will add to this conversation if she continues to disagree. -- BlueMoonlet 23:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Somebody's fooling around with your recent changes, and not always getting it right, either. Baseball Bugs 03:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The NFL template has an "if" statement so that the "other nicknames" field only appears if there are nicknames to fill it. We need something like that in the MLB template. Also, you've got to let go of things like "Washington Nationals </br> "The Nats"", because it appears lower down in the "Name" field as well. -- BlueMoonlet 04:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Do I just add my name to the list, or are there other things I have to do. -- HPJoker 21:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I have restarted a discussion on including dates in the MLB division standings templates at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/2007 MLB team articles#Standings dates (again). Please chime in, whatever your views on this issue. - BillCJ 04:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I created an article for Town Team Baseball (Minnesota), and because I know that town team baseball exists in other states, I wonder whether it would be appropriate to have a parent article. I also would like to tie this in with the baseball project, but don't know how to proceed. Somebody want to advise me? Spottacus 15:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to a tip by User:Miss Mondegreen, I learned of a reprint of Ernest Lanigan's pioneering 1922 book, the Baseball Cyclopedia, which I ordered from McFarland Publishers [31] and which arrived today. Lanigan was the original "Figger Filbert", and the record books and encyclopedias that came afterward built on his work. Baseball Bugs 23:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
The Babe Ruth article was completely replaced by a much older version on June 30, with the cryptic edit summary "rv to last good version" by User:Mr Monty Marbles. This older version has a dozen dead image links and not one single in-line citation. To compare with last pre-replacement version, click here. I for one find this objectionable and have proposed reversion by consensus on the article's talk page. Because of the importance of Babe Ruth to baseball, I thought it would be a good idea to bring this to the attention of the Baseball Project members, as well. JGHowes talk - 05:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
...does not work. Its intent is to look up the player's page on the Hall of Fame website. However, they are listed by an ID rather than by player name. For example, the posted link to Sparky Anderson WikiProject Baseball/Archive 3 at the Baseball Hall of Fame takes you to a default "I can't find it" page. The actual page for Sparky is playerId=110238. Baseball Bugs 18:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to see some of the succession boxes condensed. On pages like Sandy Koufax, Frank Robinson, and Bob Gibson (amongst MANY others), the lists are ridiculously long. The inundate the reader with information and clutter the articles. I would think that we should try and stick to 5-6 (or there abouts). For players with multiple titles in a particular category (think Babe Ruth and Home Runs), i would suggest we use the first available "succession" and not multiple examples. Thoughts? // Tecmobowl 05:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Why not make them collapsible? Have them collapsed when the page is opened and if someone wants to view them, the click "Show." -- Holderca1 21:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
See Roger Clemens for collapsed succession boxes. I think this should be agreeable to everyone. -- Holderca1 00:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent) I missed the discussion, but I like the separated boxes like Barry Bonds and Frank Robinson as well as the collapsed Roger Clemens boxes. I think both techniques should be combined. I may get around to doing both to Sandy Koufax. -- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 19:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I've created a template {{ Baseball pitches}} and started cleaning up some of these articles. I was hoping to get some input on how to organize these articles. Right now, I have "history", "throwing mechanics", "uses", and "professional practitioners" as the standard headings as seen in slider. I don't like the wording of "professional practitioners" but I do not know what to change it to. I'm also planning on giving the different fastballs there own articles since the other specific types of pitches have their own articles. Basar 02:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Alright I made an image of a slider. Please tell me this is accurate?++ aviper2k7++ 05:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Whoever decided to put team colors in the player infoboxes created a minefield of POV-pushing. There is the ongoing battle over Reggie Jackson, for example. There is some debate over Nolan Ryan. There is also the idiotic attempts to attach Casey Stengel to the Mets colors, despite the fact that Casey's greatest achievements were with the Yankees, as well as the fact that he's wearing a Yankees cap on his Hall of Fame plaque (like Reggie). The bottom line is that posting team colors puts wikipedia in the position of "deciding" which team a multi-team player is most-associated with. It's easy for one-team or mostly-one-team players. But many prominent players have played on multiple teams. The team colors are cute and pretty but they are merely decorative and are inherently problematic. Baseball Bugs 14:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I've only got something to say about Nolan Ryan. I noticed that the color of the infobox was a bright-red because of the current Angels colors. I left a notice about this at Talk:Nolan Ryan on June 26, but nobody responded to my comment. Below is the comment I left there:
“ | I take the assumption that the current colors for Ryan's infobox reflect him playing for the California Angels. But to me, the colors look too much more like the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim's colors. California's team colors were a bit darker. See Image:CalAngels93.GIF for an image of their logo, which shows that the team's colors are a bit darker shade of red. I think the infobox colors should reflect this. | ” |
If the colors do remain in the infoboxes, then Nolan Ryan's should reflect the colors of the team from when he played with that team, which in this case would be a much darker shade of red than is currently used in the Angels' current logo. –– Ksy92003 (talk) 23:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed we have articles going back to the 2004 Major League Baseball Draft. Perhaps we should work on doing, slowly, articles on the older drafts as well? It could be helpful for comparing the careers of players, etc. matt91486 23:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I am hoping we can create some guidelines on baseball lists. Yesterday, I spent some time creating List of Major League Baseball leaders in career stolen bases after I thought I exhaustively searched for any potentially redundant articles and found none. Today, I found List of Major League Baseball players with 500 stolen bases. It wasn't listed in the lists category, it wasn't linked in the logical places like stolen base, and I must have missed it in a search. If you look in Category:Baseball lists, you'll find the naming conventions are varied. I am proposing we use a naming convention of "List of Major League Baseball leaders in career stat", "List of Major League Baseball stat champions", "List of Major League Baseball leaders in single-season stat", and other logical permutations. I also propose we strike all of the articles that list the players over a certain amount of stat like the 600 home run club. Not only is it redundant with the 500 home run club, but it is also redundant with the career leaders list. I think we should also specify the table formating standards and whether we use bold or some other designation for active players. Basar 19:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I want to submit both Ted Radcliffe and Steve Dalkowski to WP:FAR. Do people agree that these articles are so substandard with respect to FA-class citation standards that they reflect poorly on WP:MLB for claiming them as WP:FA articles? -- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 16:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Ted Radcliffe has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 20:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Steve Dalkowski has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 20:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
New York Yankees has been nominated for a good article review. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are delisted. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. -- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone shed light on why we have celebrity fan sections on MLB team pages? This seems more like it would belong in People or Us than on an encyclopedic entry. I have found this on a couple, such as for the San Francisco Giants and the New York Yankees. Entirelybs 19:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I may seem a little scared about the event that it happens, but can you assure me that, in the event that articles like 1921 New York Yankees season are put up for deletion that you will vote keep simply because they are notable and that it's hard work? Thanks Soxrock 11:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Currently, even when there are no suspended players in an organization, the Suspended list category remains under which says "Currently vacant." Too me, this feels a little negative. Why would you just have a Suspended list on the roster page if it doesn't need to be used right now? Could you imagine an official MLB or NFL website having a blank Suspended list "just in case"? I just think it's kind of negative to ALWAYS have one on every roster whether it's being used or not. What does everyone else think?► Chris Nelson 17:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
We should probably create standards for showing career statistics. I think the following code formatting should be chosen:
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center" |- ! [[Year]] !! [[Age]] !! Team !! Lg !! [[Win (baseball)|W]] !! [[Loss (baseball)|L]] !! [[Games played|G]] !! [[Games started|GS]] !! [[Complete game|CG]] !! [[Shutout|SHO]] !! [[Games finished|GF]] !! [[Save (baseball)|SV]] !! [[Innings pitched|IP]] !! [[Hits allowed|H]] !! [[Runs|R]] !! [[Earned run|ER]] !! [[Home runs allowed|HR]] !! [[Base on balls|BB]] !! [[Shutout|SO]] !! [[Hit by pitch|HBP]] !! [[Wild pitch|WP]] !! [[Batters faced by pitcher|BFP]] !! [[Intentional base on balls|IBB]] !! [[Balk|BK]] !! [[Earned run average|ERA]] !! *lgERA !! [[Walks plus hits per inning pitched|WHIP]] |- |2004 ||25 ||[[Texas Rangers (baseball)|TEX]] ||[[American League|AL]] ||3 ||2 ||7 ||7 ||0 ||0 ||0 ||0 ||36.3 ||36 ||21 ||19 ||7 ||10 ||27 ||2 ||1 ||158 ||0 ||0 ||4.71 ||5.05 ||1.266 |- etc . . . |}
which shows:
Year | Age | Team | Lg | W | L | G | GS | CG | SHO | GF | SV | IP | H | R | ER | HR | BB | SO | HBP | WP | BFP | IBB | BK | ERA | *lgERA | WHIP |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
2004 | 25 | TEX | AL | 3 | 2 | 7 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 36.3 | 36 | 21 | 19 | 7 | 10 | 27 | 2 | 1 | 158 | 0 | 0 | 4.71 | 5.05 | 1.266 |
2005 | 26 | TEX | AL | 12 | 7 | 31 | 31 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 164.7 | 162 | 84 | 78 | 19 | 45 | 137 | 7 | 3 | 700 | 2 | 0 | 4.26 | 4.49 | 1.257 |
2006 | 27 | SD | NL | 11 | 5 | 31 | 31 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 179.3 | 134 | 72 | 69 | 28 | 69 | 164 | 6 | 6 | 735 | 4 | 1 | 3.46 | 4.22 | 1.132 |
2007 | 28 | SD | NL | 8 | 3 | 17 | 17 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 103.7 | 74 | 29 | 23 | 3 | 36 | 99 | 4 | 3 | 421 | 0 | 3 | 2.00 | 4.03 | 1.061 |
Career | .667 | 34 | 17 | 86 | 86 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 484.0 | 406 | 206 | 189 | 57 | 160 | 427 | 19 | 13 | 2014 | 6 | 4 | 3.51 | 4.34 | 1.169 |
Statistics accurate through July 9, 2007 [1]
I don't have much of an opinion on which stats should be shown or which ones should be used for hitters, although I'm not too fond of lgERA, I don't think it is all that common, but I know it's useful. I think we should use the standard baseball convention of 8.2 innings meaning 8 and 2/3. I think this is the formatting I've seen on all baseball sites. Although I know many will disagree, but I think we should simply say "in progress" for current year statistics. I don't think it is Wikipedia's nature to provide readers with continually updated statistics as they change daily. I simply do not think it is what Wikipedia is meant for, and I think stat sites are there for that. Not to mention that it would be a huge amount of work to keep all baseball players pages updates on a regular basis. Not even baseballcube updates stats in mid season. Reporting for whole years would make the articles more stable. I don't think we need to link year and age. We should also define when age takes place and make it a note at the bottom of the page; is the beginning of the season standard? Should we link the years to "200X baseball season"? Basar 19:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
So are we deciding to only include career statistics and do so in the format suggested? Have enough people OK'd this to put it in the guidelines? -- Basar ( talk · contribs) 01:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The categorization of players such as Edwin Jackson and Glenn Hubbard (who were born at overseas US military installations) as foreign is incorrect. I suggest that all Americans born overseas as dependents to US military member parents be correctly listed as Americans before anything else. -- John 02:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I attempted to clarify the difference between opponents batting average and hits per nine innings. Editorial review would be appreciated.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
You might be interested in [32]. If this succeeds, as it may, Category:500 home run club, Category:30-30 club, Category:600 home run club, Category:700 home run club etc are very likely to be nominated for deletion next. Johnbod 00:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Johns, you're looking at this bass-ackwards: If this proposal is deleted, keep voting keep on all the others, and try to garner support for them as a whole. Then later, if the others are kept, you can try to get your's restored for consistency. These deletionists are like a virus, and the more deletions they get, the more they keep trying to other things deleted just because the first type was deleted. Don't feed their their fire, or they'll be after something else you like next. Then you'll come back here seeking help again, but no one will go to bat for you because they'll remember what you did. In principle, every article or template is to be judged on its own merits. But in practice, I've had several articles Nominated for deletion just because others of a similar type had been nominated, and the nominators admitted it! These people are the scum of Wikipeduia, because they routinely flout basic courtesies such as WP:AGF. Please, don't stoop to their level. - BillCJ 03:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The debate seems to about whether a category is needed in addition to a list. I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I would point out that while major statistical achievements such as 500 home runs have both categories and lists, I'm not seeing a category for baseball games played, nor even for other obvious baseball milestones such as 3,000 hits. Baseball Bugs 11:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I am the page creator and main editor of Chris Young (pitcher). I think by fluke related to the fact that three active professional athletes named Chris Young exist may have caused some confusion enabled me to be the page creator in his 3rd major league season. I have been happily editing the page essentially by my lonesome until he became an All-Star. Now, everyone is joining in with varied citation standards and image inclusion interests. In the last 24 hours there has been a lot of debate about this article. In fact, yesterday one editor said he prefered a 20KB version to the 61 KB version I was editing. Another editor has proposed a 49 KB version. I have contested some removals and the page is now at 54KB.
As a reader, when a game is notable enough to be specifically mentioned in an article, I prefer that the citations include a link to a box score and/or a recap of the game. It is more convenient for me as a reader to have fingertip access to such notable games. During several WP:FAC debates I have made this point. In the current article, the last two sentences at Chris_Young_(pitcher)#Double_A are examples of where this debate is relevant. I personally feel that for internet era athletes adding internet box score or game recaps to the article via citation is the proper standard of excellence. This standard would affect all other baseball articles and it was suggested that the debate be brought here. Please respond with opinions on the matter.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 15:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
A couple of comments on the problems that I (and other editors) see with this article
In any case, I suggested that we bring the discussion here, becaue Chris Young is after all a baseball player. And, since the standards (especially the box score referencing) should be pretty standard across similar people (i.e. baseball players), it should be discussed here. Just my thoughts, and i'm interested to see what other people think about the discussion. Bjewiki 16:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey, TTT, you said that people agreed that I shouldn't have done the numbers the way I did... but I don't see anybody here who has agreed that I was wrong. You said "other editors are complaining about how the numbers are written now in the baseball talk page discussion." I don't see anybody complaining about that. –– Ksy92003 (talk) 19:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Major League Baseball on the radio was a DYK a few hours ago. ¿SFGiДnts! ¿Complain! ¿Analyze! ¿Review! 20:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
How can I make it better? ¿SFGiДnts! ¿Complain! ¿Analyze! ¿Review! 21:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I've tried to edit the punctuation in the notability section so it's rendered in proper English, but I'm stymied by the fact that one sentence is poorly written.
“ | Outside the US, e.g. Japan, any player playing in Nippon Professional Baseball is considered notable as it is the top professional league of that country. | ” |
This could lead someone with moderate English skills to think that only players for teams located in the US and Japan (and nowhere else) are notable. I don't mind changing bad or confusing punctuation, but substantive changes should be discussed, so: If your intent is to allow articles on professional baseball players from other countries, I suggest you rewrite that part of the section to say:
“ | Any player that plays in the top professional league in his country is notable. This includes Major League Baseball in North America and Nippon Professional Baseball in Japan, among others. Minor league players in North America are not considered notable. | ” |
That way you avoid mistaken accusations of bias and your guideline is clearer. -- Charlene 03:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hello. The start of the MLB season is 2½ months away. Similar to what I am doing with my NHL team season articles, I have started the concept of doing a similar project for the MLB baseball season this year. If anybody would like to work on this project, click here. The details and information is available on this site. Simply add your name next to a team, and feel free to create the article. I hope that this project is successful and has enough people working on it to get the articles for all 30 teams. Thanks. Ksy92003 00:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is a complete mess and needs work ASAP. Quadzilla99 15:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I notice that articles on players generally don't include their statistics. I assume the reason for that is that MLB statistics are widely available from other sources, such as baseball-reference.com, which can be accessed through an external link. My question is about players for whom this is not the case -- specifically, pre-1950 Negro League players and notable career minor leaguers. (I've edited articles for a few of these players.) For early Negro League and minor league players, their statistics may be scattered among various books or old baseball guides. Would it be considered acceptable to include the statistics for these players within the article (while citing the sources)? — BRMo 15:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I am proposing that the projects become one, I don’t see why the projects are separate. There are different ways you can do this and one way would be to make the WPBBP a subproject/taskforce of the main WPBB. This would have them using the same template, the discussions staying closer, etc.
Please comment -- Borgarde 00:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Baseball has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. ~~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jeffpw ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
The Chien-Ming Wang article is the site of a dispute where a number of Chinese users are attempting to add Republic of China as Wang's birthplace. I've looked but am unable to verify this with a reliable source. I realize that ROC and Taiwan are the same, however since the threshold for inclusion into Wikipedia is verifiablity and not truth as per WP:VERIFY, I've asked for a source that includes Republic of China. The following reliable sources list Wang as being born in Taiwan: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], however I've yet to see a single reliable source that says Republic of China. Since this dispute is now starting to include personal attacks from a number of users 'recruited' by one particular editor, I'm requesting some third party opinions on how this should be handled. Thanks. Yankees76 00:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it's about time we discussed naming conventions on articles.
While editting I've noticed articles that have players names and then (baseball), ones that have (baseball player) and ones that have (LEAGUE NAME player).
I can understand the use of league name player once there has been two players with the same name, but what is the default? (baseball) or (baseball player)?
Same goes with baseball teams. I've seen (baseball), (baseball team), and (LEAGUE team). Which one?
Should we not use (baseball) at all and simply put (baseball team)? And then if there has been two teams with the same name, one goes with the (LEAGUE team)?
I support the article that has the most significance to not carry a name in brackets. For instance, if a team has world wide significance, let them use the name of the article, and the one that is a hardly known minor league team to use (baseball team) at the end.
Any thoughts? -- Borgarde 05:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
How should the sub-categories within this category be named? They are currently Category:2006 World Baseball Classic players of Country or this way, Category:Country players in the 2006 World Baseball Classic
The current categories are:
I prefer "Canadian players at the 2006 World Baseball Classic". Just want some thoughts into this. -- Borgarde 14:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if this is not the place to put this, but I just noticed the tag on the discussion page of Shoeless Joe. It says that Joe's article is "middle-importance". Say it ain't so!
If you are looking at pure numbers over a full career, maybe this is accurate. If you are looking at pure talent it is not even close. If you are looking at the what he added to the legend, lore, and myth of the game he is probably the most important player ever (at least tied with the Babe, Ty Cobb, and Yogi Berra). If you are looking at how he affected the game of baseball and how baseball is viewed in American culture - it's just him and the Babe.
In short, could somebody please check the umpire's eyeglass prescription?
Smallbones 16:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
User:WatchlistBot has finished tagging baseball articles, with the list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Articles. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do to help (like check the categories again and tag new articles at some point in the future). Ingrid 21:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Doug Harvey has been tagged as being part of the baseball project because it is is in Category:Buffalo Bisons players a category which says it is for a baseball team. It seems like this is a mistake though, since Doug Harvey is a hockey player (who played for a hockey team called the Buffalo Bisons). There may be other hockey players in this category as well. I'm posting to Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey as well. Perhaps someone from here and/or someone from there could work this out. For now, I've just got Doug Harvey explicitly excluded from tagging by User:WatchlistBot. Ingrid 05:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I did the Billy Rogell page about six months ago but didn't get any feedback on it. Originally I'd planned to do a whole series, or at least continue my work through a good number of players. Is this what we're looking for here? Because if so I'd definitely be interested in taking time to work on some more baseball pages. Someone drop me a line here or email me: desjardfan@gmail.com
Desjardfan 09:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I have been involved with a dispute with
Fahima07 about whether or not the scores of every single game should be listed in that article. After
February 28, the actions needed will be taken to the article. Any disagreements may be posted here.
Ksy92003
talk·
contribs
The traduction is wrong. There is no "Caribbean Baseball World Series", but "The Caribbean Series". In Spanish the event is called "La Serie del Caribe", not "La Serie Mundial del Caribe de Béisbol". Someone must fix this.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.45.125.51 ( talk • contribs) 12:42, 12 February 2007.
This is correct. A non-admin can't do the move, since Caribbean Series already exists as a redirect. I'll post it to be moved, when I have a minute, or maybe someone else can beat me to it. -- Djrobgordon 18:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
It's probably been discussed before, but I find it annoying that teams like the Philadelphia Athletics and St. Louis Browns are listed under their current incarnations. Shouldn't they have separate articles? At the least, it would seem to make the current articles not so long. Hockey has articles for the Minnesota North Stars and Winnipeg Jets, I think baseball ought to be the same way. DandyDan2007 13:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm having a problem on the Atlanta Braves page. An anon user with multiple IP addresses keeps changing the article so that the Braves only have 11 consecutive season division championshps from 14. He/she/it refuses to enage in any discussion at all on the issue, and has reverted several attempts at a compromise that gives both positions. If wyou would like to weigh in on this specific issue, the discussion and details of the problem are on Talk:Atlanta Braves.
I would like to know if the project has dealt with how to handle the strike year and its effects on team records before. Is there a consensus from the project on what to do in these situations? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. - BillCJ 03:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the references. I'm going to repost your comments on the Talk:Atlanta Braves page, and try to work the references into the article. Thanks again! - BillCJ 18:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I am a member of this project and WP:RADIO too. I grew up listening to Vin Scully and Jerry Doggett. I've added a couple of the Dodger (no booing or hissing, please) to the Radio project with the talkpage tag. You can see it on those articles.
It is a real shame that great announcers like Doggett does not have much of an article. Like all the greats, he drew a picture and I remember scoring games as they were announced on radio. Those were the days when you had a program to do boxscores. Just a thought and a tip of the hat to my Dad who started me down this route. Cheers, Ronbo76 13:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Any idea if Roush Fenway Racing should be included under this project? While it seems this turn of events will have the largest impact on NASCAR itself, it seems to me that this is going to have an important and extremely notable recognition within Major League Baseball as well, since this is the first time anything like this has happened within any of the so called "four major sports" in America. -- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk| @ 00:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
This page now automatically archives, discussions that are 28 days without comment are archived into the current archive. I put 28 days because 4 weeks seems a reasonable amount of time to consider a discussion dead. I've also made a link to all the archives in the project to try to organise it a little better, might put it in a table or something later, but for now it's all fine. -- Borgarde talk 03:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The 2007 team pages for the Major League Baseball season, right now they are all more or less at a start level I'd say. Does anyone have opinions on their importance? Low? Mid?
You could say they are mid-importance for the current season, but in the overall project they are low. Just want some opinions before I mark any. Thanks. -- Borgarde ( talk) 02:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Are we just going to go with one month at a time or are we going to go with an entire season in the article? Also, why do we need to show off days? It take up unnecessary space in the article. Kingjeff 15:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if this discussion should happen here or at the Players Task Force pages.
I've been trying to clean up links on the All Time Roster pages, and have noticed there is almost no standardization, particularly in what data is included. Some pages only have players with existing wikipedia articles, and no other information. Unfortunately, this makes them a duplicate of the category for that teams' players, which is discouraged by wikipedia. Some rosters include everyone who has been on the 40-man roster, whether they appeared in a game or not, while other rosters restrict the list to those who played in at least one major league game. Also rosters vary as to whether they include the years played and position played.
Any thoughts?-- Kathy A. 22:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
So to summarize the thoughts so far: include only players who played at least one game for that team, include the years they played for that team, include where they played the most for that team (P, C, IF, OF), and include HOF as appropriate. Also include a paragraph at the beginning of each roster saying who is included.-- Kathy A. 16:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm in the early stages of reviving Portal:Baseball, and it occurred to me that this might be a better place to post a notice than the talk page of a moribund Portal. Ideally, I'd like to have it up and running before opening day. Right now, I'm working on a redesign, since the color scheme and layout make it pretty difficult to read. If anyone's interested, my work in progress is at User:Djrobgordon/sandbox. I realize doing edits in my sandbox isn't the most transparent way of going about it, but I thought it was better than using the real portal for my experiments. Even if you're not interested in being permanently involved in the portal, I'd love some constructive criticism. If you have any comments please leave them at Portal talk:Baseball, rather than my sandbox talk page. That way I won't have to move them there after the redesign is complete.
Ideally, I'd like to have a few other editors help evaluate articles and images to feature on the page, as well as to update the News and Did You Know... sections. I don't particularly mind doing it myself, but it's not really in the spirit of Wikipedia. It seems like the Portal has had two spurts of activity, led by individual editors who abandoned it soon after. I don't plan on abandoning it, but I could get hit by a bus or something.
Thanks for any help you can give. -- Djrobgordon 18:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Hey all ... this project is attempting to cover a wide variety of things within the category of baseball. Although commendable, its certainly hard to manage everything all at once! I would like to help by proposing to develop standard article templates for all team and league articles to promote consistency among the articles. I understand that some aspects of this has already been done (for example, major league teams should follow a specific ToC), but may not be consistently applied (especially for minor league teams and leagues). What I'm proposing is ensuring that we have a standard a number of things, including:
I propose to establish standard templates primarily for the minor leagues, including both current and former teams as well as current and former leagues. Part of this sub-project will be to identify and catalog every minor league team and league that has existed and to create, at a minimum, stub pages for them.
I have a lot of ideas, and intend to leverage as much work as has been done in the general WikiProject Baseball as possible. I will begin to work on this, but seek to identify a couple of volunteers to provide input and help. I would like to keep the initial involvement to a few individuals as that will promote efficiency. If anyone is interested, please leave leave a comment on my talk page. -- CPAScott 20:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I have compiled a listing of all major and minor leagues as well as most current and some historical independent leagues. See User:CPAScott/Template01. This can be the master list to track the creation of the league pages once the template is developed. Right now, no one has yet expressed an interest in joining this task force -- please let me know if you can help! I will work on a template for leagues and seek member opinion before updating or creating the stub pages.
A task force page has been established -- CPAScott 20:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering if someone could create a cap with the team's cap logo for each MLB team for use in the infobox instead of the current square with cap logo. I'm thinking of something like the NFL team's have with the helmet in the infobox only a baseball cap. I am not artistic or graphic skilled in any way so I can't do it. If someone else can and will, I think it would really improve the appearance of the team pages and infoboxes. Timpcrk87 06:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
If anyone's interest, I just requested a peer review for Youngstown Ohio Works. The peer review is located at Wikipedia:Peer review/Youngstown Ohio Works.-- Djrobgordon 04:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
not for guys trying to make the team in spring training, they are not. more important than minor league stats, as the major league staff is watching. imho. --Epeefleche 23:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Are you going to post stats for Milledge, Ben Johnson, Anderson Hernandez etc?? The thing is, minor league stats are conserved and remembered years to come...they span a greater amount of time and show development. Spring training stats, more or less, are thrown out the window...it's a time for pitchers to try new things and it's more about getting into shape. We can discuss this further but it probably be best to refer it to wiki-project baseball. SERSeanCrane 23:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Spring training serves different purposes for different players. What you say as to spring training being about getting into shape is the case for players who have made the team, but that is not what it is about for Newhan. For Newhan, it is about impressing Willie and the coaching staff, so that they pick him for the team.
And as to spring training stats being thown out the window, the trend is the reverse. See, for example, http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/N/David-Newhan.shtml , in which you can see that Newhan didn't have very good springs hitting wise in 2005 and 2006.
As far as referring it to wiki-project baseball, that sounds fine to me if you are unwilling to undo your revert.
Might I prevail upon you to do it for me, as I am not sure how that is done.
Thanks. --Epeefleche 00:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The founder of Retrosheet has an article, which I found while working on uncategorized articles. I placed him in the Category:Baseball Statistics, but in retrospect, didn't think it fit. If you'd like to come up with a better category, or if you think it's good enough, come up with one. DandyDan2007 01:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
-- After Midnight 0001 04:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I came across the article of Harry Simmons today. It really needs to be cleaned up. I don't know anything about this guy, but if anyone can cite sources or do anything to clean it up it would be appreciated. It doesn't read very well at all right now. -- Borgarde talk 00:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for cleaning up this article about my Dad. I will try to add some references from the New York Times and some magazines which had published articles about Harry Simmons. I eventually plan to submit his name for nomination to the Composite Ballot for the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown. Any suggestions would be welcome. My e-mail address is davezxc@yahoo.com. Davezxc 12:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
This is something of a followup to my previous question about David Smith. Looking at Category:Baseball statistics, you got a number of statisticians or analysts. I suppose you could say sabermetricians. A good number of them are employees of Baseball Prospectus. It seems to me that should be a separate category. If you agree, what's the best name for the category? DandyDan2007 08:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the college football teams have a template at the bottom of their page with a link to each of the coaches' entries. Could we do that with baseball teams and managers? Tomdaddy53 21:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Links to previous discussion:
Please take a look at these two articles, and then look at these articles: 2007 Chicago White Sox season and 2007 Cleveland Indians season. Is this the way that everybody wants to do the game logs? And if so, do you want to leave it in this format, or do you want to change the teams so it says "Chicago" instead of "White Sox", "Los Angeles (AL)" instead of "Angels", "New York (AL)" instead of "Yankees"? Is it necessary to make a different shade to differentiate between home stands and road trips, since after the games are completed the table will be color coded to indicate wins and losses anyway, eliminating the blue color? It doesn't matter as much to me, but it would clearly be best if it is the same format for every team's article. Please leave your comments here, and we'll see what the consensus is. Ksy92003 talk· contribs
How about adding the starting pitcher? The "Record" and "Division Standings" columns could be condensed down into a single column with entries like "5-0, 1st" or "3-7, 4th (tie)". — Mike 06:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, do we need the column 'OT'? In a season long game log is the notation of extra inning games needed? Perhaps that column would be better served by Games Behind (GB) or Winning Percentage (PCT)? — Steven Andrew Miller ( talk) 07:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Example Log:
# | Date | Visitor | Score | Home | Win/Loss | Save | Attendance | Record | GB |
79 | June 30 | White Sox | 6-2 | Cubs | Garland/ Marshall | 40,720 | 52-27 | 2.5 | |
80 | July 1 | White Sox | 8-6 | Cubs | Cotts/ Dempster | Jenks | 41,027 | 53-27 | 1.5 |
81 | July 2 | White Sox | 15-11 | Cubs | Zambrano/ Buehrle | Howry | 40,919 | 53-28 | 2.5 |
Is everyone good with this? Or are there more purposed changes? — Steven Andrew Miller ( talk) 18:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Comment - These articles need to be moved, they violate wiki policy. Subpages do not exist in main article space. The slash should be replaced with a space, i.e. 2007 Chicago White Sox season game log.-- Holderca1 03:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Looking over this, I have a few comments, I think the color coding should be based on home/away rather than win/loss, you can put a W or an L next to the score to denote a win or loss. Then you would just need one team column titled opponent. Keep the other teams pitcher, it's nice to be able to look through and see how a team has done against a specific pitcher, and split the win/loss into two columns. Also, I think the record of the pitchers should be included, see below for what I envision -- Holderca1 14:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Example Log:
# | Date | Opponent | Score | Win | Loss | Save | Attendance | Record | GB |
79 | June 30 | Cubs | W 6-2 | Garland (12-3) | Marshall (6-6) | 40,720 | 52-27 | 2.5 | |
80 | July 1 | Cubs | W 8-6 | Cotts (3-1) | Dempster (1-4) | Jenks (19) | 41,027 | 53-27 | 1.5 |
81 | July 2 | Cubs | L 15-11 | Zambrano (12-4) | Buehrle (10-6) | Howry (22) | 40,919 | 53-28 | 2.5 |
Example Log:
# | Date | Opponent | Score | Win | Loss | Save | Attendance | Record | GB |
79 | June 30 | Cubs | 6-2 | Garland | Marshall | 40,720 | 52-27 | 2.5 | |
80 | July 1 | Cubs | 8-6 | Cotts | Dempster | Jenks | 41,027 | 53-27 | 1.5 |
81 | July 2 | Cubs | 15-11 | Zambrano | Buehrle | Howry | 40,919 | 53-28 | 2.5 |
Please see: WP:Baseball/game_log — Steven Andrew Miller ( talk) 17:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
You would probably still want to include the "W" or "L" as people who are color blind may not be able to pick up the color differences as easily. And someone should try to print it out on a black and white printer to see if the red and green look very different. — Mike 22:29, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I agree that the "W" or "L" should be kept in front of the score. Also, I think the pitcher's record should go on this page. It allows a quick reference to see how a pitcher progressed throughout the season, which I feel is closely related to the team and so belongs on the log page. I apologize if this is the wrong place, but I'm not familiar with the layout of Wiki quite yet. I'd be willing to do the Indians game log, which is currently empty on the page listing the teams. Should I add myself to it? Good work on the logs so far! Tytrain 23:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Example Log:
# | Date | Opponent | Score | Win | Loss | Save | Attendance | Record |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
79 | June 30 | Cubs | 6-2 | Garland | Marshall | 40,720 | 52-27 | |
80 | July 1 | Cubs | 8-6 | Cotts | Dempster | Jenks | 41,027 | 53-27 |
81 | July 2 | Cubs | 15-11 | Zambrano | Buehrle | Howry | 40,919 | 53-28 |
I still think that green and red would be best for denoting wins and losses. If we use gray and white, people might get confused as to which color is for wins and losses. It is common sense that green would be the good thing for the team (Wins) and the red would be the bad (losses).
I am really hoping that we can get this straightened out by the time the season starts, as it would be good to keep everything organized by the time we start adding stuff.
Ksy92003
talk·
contribs
00:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The score, I think, should still be listed with the home team's score first, even for losses - 11-15 in the example above. Tytrain 01:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Example Log:
# | Date | Opponent | Score | Win | Loss | Save | Attendance | Record |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
79 | June 30 | Cubs | 6-2 | Garland | Marshall | 40,720 | 52-27 | |
80 | July 1 | Cubs | 8-6 | Cotts | Dempster | Jenks | 41,027 | 53-27 |
81 | July 2 | Cubs | 15-11 | Zambrano | Buehrle | Howry | 40,919 | 53-28 |
As you can see by the edits from my last example log, I think we should put the pitcher (Win, Loss, Save) in Bold letters for easier reading. Ksy92003 talk· contribs 17:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to impose a March 28 deadline on deciding how to do these. March 28 is four days before the season starts, so I would like to get this part straightened out by then if possible. Ksy92003 talk· contribs 01:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree that a indication of home/away is need. And to clarify, I am in favor of the colored boxes, and in favor of always listing the article team's score first, win or lose. Tytrain 00:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It does show progressively shows a w-l record during the season. Kingjeff 03:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, it's been a while since we've really had anybody comment about how to go about doing the game logs. I think we can safely say that we have the format taken care of (Date / Opponent / Score / Win / Loss / Save / Attendance / Record) and that those are the headings that we are going to include in our game log table. That said, I think we only have two items of discussion still ongoing.
Please state your opinion and hopefully we can get a consensus. Ksy92003 talk· contribs 16:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
If nobody proposes any more ideas for this or states their opinion about the game logs, then we'll just have to go with whatever we have, which right now is Red/Green and pitcher's records. During the season, we might be able to have another discussion about this and make the necessary changes, but we will only be able to take stuff out, not put stuff in. Ksy92003 talk· contribs 18:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Alright, our deadline has come and passed. So, here is our final proposal. Again, during the season we may remove some stuff from the game logs that we already have, but we may not add any information already included. Here is our final proposal; this is what all of our game logs are gonna be modeled off of.
# | Date | Opponent | Score | Win | Loss | Save | Attendance | Record |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
79 | June 30 | Cubs | 6 - 2 | Garland (12-3) | Marshall (6-6) | 40,720 | 52-27 | |
80 | July 1 | Cubs | 8 - 6 | Cotts (3-1) | Dempster (1-4) | Jenks (19) | 41,027 | 53-27 |
81 | July 2 | Cubs | 15 - 11 | Zambrano (12-4) | Buehrle (10-6) | Howry (22) | 40,919 | 53-28 |
Ksy92003 talk· contribs 23:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Moe Berg has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I proposed adding some additional optional sections to the season articles format page. You can find the discussion here: /MLB team season articles format#Additional sections. Comments are welcome. — Mike 22:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey everybody... be sure that your team's roster is updated prior to Opening Day. Some of the teams have not finalized their rosters; make sure that your team's roster matches the roster on the team site prior to Opening Day. I've already updated several of the rosters. All of the teams should be finalizing their rosters this weekend. Tomdaddy53 19:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking it may be useful to create a template that can be put on a gamelog if it falls behind on being updated. Then all the gamelogs needing updated will be in one category and easy for someone to take care of before it falls 10+ games behind. --- CWY2190 T C 20:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Jim Thorpe has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. -- Miskwito 04:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I have put up an RFC here to decide how best to disambiguate baseball players (ie. using "(baseball)" or "(baseball player)". Your input is appreciated. Caknuck 20:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Why are we having redundancy? Should we not use internal links only once per series? Kingjeff 01:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm talking about when a series is played. A team plays lets say the Minnesota Twins for 3 straight games in 3 straight days. Do we really need to link all 3 games to the Minnesota Twins? I don't think so. Kingjeff 03:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I think you need to list all the games in the series. If you go back to when I started to created the table, you'll noticed that I only linked a team once a series simly because it was pointless doing it for the entire series. Kingjeff 04:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
How about we link teams once per series? This way it's not redundant and there would be enough throughout the table. Kingjeff 16:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't look bad if the linking is consistent. And repeating the teams isn't redundant because we're talking about different games. Kingjeff 16:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm cross-posting the following from the WP:WPBBP discussion page to try and get as much input as possible. If you have comments, please post them over there. Thanks, Sanfranman59 17:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
There are categories for players who have played on various minor league teams (e.g., Category:Kinston Indians players). An anonymous editor added the Kinston Indians category to Cliff Lee's article, although he's only appeared in one game for them prior to this season during a rehab assignment in 2003 (he's supposed to pitch a couple of innings for them tonight). Since I don't think that players on rehab assignments are even added to the official minor league team roster, it seems to me that we shouldn't put the categories on the player pages in these situations. I'd like to get some consensus on this issue. Does anyone recall any discussion of this in the past?
See discussion here: /2007_MLB_team_articles#Discussion_whether_to_keep_or_remove_player_stats. -- Holderca1 18:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Are we allowed to copy and paste things straight from the baseball-reference.com bullpen? They use the same license we do. Just don't know if that means copy-edit, or copy-paste, etc. Any tips?-- Borgarde talk 00:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Has there been any discussion or preferably a consensus reached about updating statistics in the infoboxes on player pages? I've got all of the Indians player pages on my watchlist and a couple of them have been updated with statistics from this season, but most have not. This is certainly a monumental task and seems to me to be unnecessary in an encyclopedia since there are ump-teen other more reliable sources for current statistics. The problem I have with it is that unless the statistics are updated for every player on a regular basis, the currency of the player pages will be uneven. I'm inclined to revert these in-season edits. Once the season is over, it makes perfect sense to update the infoboxes then. -- Sanfranman59 19:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I saw this in the to-do list, just moving it on to the talk page.
"Strikeout - discuss the rule that applies in the rare instances when a batter is replaced by a pinch hitter after having already received 1 or 2 strikes, and then the pinch hitter (who inherits the count) receives the 3rd strike. Which batter is charged with the strikeout? Does it matter how many strikes were inherited? Also discuss the similar rare situation in which pitcher is replaced in the middle of a plate appearance."
Thanks. -- Borgarde talk 05:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion going on in the Japanese baseball task force, about merged teams. Please provide input as it concerns baseball teams all around the world. -- Borgarde talk 16:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
There are a lot of baseball articles about events in a specific year that need rating, and I'm looking for some input as to recommendations for judging their importance and quality. Here are a few types:
Is it appropriate to give each of these categories blanket ratings, or, for example are some World Series more important than others? My opinions for importance ratings:
Any thoughts? Thanks for your input. - Mattingly23 13:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The article, Baseball, lost it's featured status a while ago. I was wondering, the Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Article improvement drive is inactive, if we start it up again and work on baseball as the first article? Thoughts? -- Borgarde talk 05:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I know they may have been born in Germany, but I don't see the justification for the German flag on their listings with their teams, since they were probably the children of servicemen. The same with Bruce Bochy, who was born in France, but whose father, according to his article, was a U.S. Army serviceman. DandyDan2007 10:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I would like to add to Wikipedia articles about each professional North American baseball league and team to Wikipedia, similar to the content included at the BR Bullpen (also wiki-based), but with more focus on encyclopedic content and with the scrutiny of the Wikipedia community. I've spent a fair amount of time compiling a listing of all baseball leagues from about 1877 through today in the following categories:
Right now, I have about 365 leagues in my database. They are listed, in alphabetical order, on my user page.
I've also compiled a listing of all baseball teams associated with the above leagues for the same time frame and have just under 5,000 teams. They are listed on my user page as well. This data also exists in an Excel spreadsheet so it can be sorted.
Obviously, this is a lot of data, but an interesting project for sure. Much of it does not yet exist in Wikipedia, although many articles do exist for current leagues and teams.
The first thing I need to do is devise a page template for leagues and a page template for teams. These templates would then be applied to all new articles AS WELL AS existing ones, so careful consideration of content, infoboxes, etc. is warranted. I'd like some input from the community. I only need a couple of people to help. I've created a task force page, but no content appears there yet. I can't do this alone! Leave me a message on my talk page and let's build this together!! -- CPAScott 17:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
does wikiproject baseball have notability standards for baseball players? Miss Mondegreen | Talk 12:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what page links to, but the sports notability page states that any player who has appeared in a fully professional league is considered notable. So considering how hard it is to get into the majors, anyone who has played MLB baseball is considered notable. -- Borgarde talk 06:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we add categories for high school baseball and high school baseball venues? Jerry Uht Park in Erie, PA uses its park for minor league ball, but also hosts high school and college games. There are already categories for college baseball and college baseball venues, but I couldn't find anything for high schools. I think it would be useful to track the high school activities, which I'm sure are common. Let me know if I missed them somehow or if there is something I am supposed to do besides this to request that categories be established. Pat 10:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I drafted a page for them on a sports wiki (ArmchairGM.com) I run. It's here. You're welcome to fork it, with attribution, if you'd like. -- DNL 13:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I've been working on fixing links to disambiguation pages - so that links go where they're supposed to - in this case on links to Record. A lot of them are from the MLB player infobox on baseball player pages, e.g. Josh Beckett, where the editor has wikilinked the stat label Record, presumably so it fits in colour-wise with the other selected stats (?), but the link just goes to the disamb page, not to anywhere baseball-related. This is also the case with Infobox asian baseball player, e.g. Pan Wei-lun.
Is there any way round this - if I de-link them your colour scheme gets upset, perhaps there's an appropriate baseball-related article to which they could be linked instead? - Struway 18:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
On the Detroit Tigers page there is an animated gif which someone had created, and it shows a tiger grabbing and chewing a baseball bat inside a circle marked "Detroit Tigers". This image ( File:Tiger4.gif), if one looks at the file summary, shows who created it, and the copyright claim, which states it was released into the public domain. I had used this image on my own user page, as I am a fan of the Tigers.
However, upon checking with Ron Wade, an official with Detroit Tigers managment, this image is copyrighted by the Tigers, and it was used by the Tigers for their television broadcasting beginning in the early-1980's. I was further told by Mr. Wade that any image or logo owned by the MLB is copyrighted, and permission must be granted for use apart from what they have specified. This means unless specific permission has been granted to Wikipedia, there isn't a single baseball logo that is allowed here for any article on any team.
So, whoever are the powers that be in Wikipedia had better get to contacting MLB about getting permission, because they're not going to be happy with fair use. Carajou 22:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Just a pair of reminders.
- Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 15:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I put together a page in my user space ( here) that compares the team color schemes used by MLB.com to those we use. (In case you're interested, the colors they use are identified in .css files for each team. Cleveland's is here.) For about half the teams, the colors are either identical or only subtly different than what we're using. For the other half, at least one of the colors is quite different. The latter group includes BAL, CWS, CIN, CLE, COL, DET, KC, LAA, LAD, OAK, PHI, SD, STL, TB and TOR. Personally, I prefer the page header colors (i.e. the last two columns in my table) MLB.com uses for CLE, DET, KC, LAA, PHI, SD and TOR.
I propose that we change the color schemes for at least these 7 teams. What do others think? -- Sanfranman59 23:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Someone just added an infobox to Jim Eisenreich; I corrected the dashes on the date ranges to conform to WP:DASH. Just pointing out that ndash is used on date ranges; you can find it under your reply screen when in edit mode. Hyphen (-) is used to hyphenate words; ndash (–) is used to separate number and date ranges; mdash (—) is used as punctuation, for example, in place of a comma. This are often misused in sports articles. Thanks for improving Eisenreich! Regards, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 11:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous user has added this box to the pages of each of the players on the White Sox 2005 WS roster. I stumbled across it because I have Cliff Politte on my watchlist. Is this a new initiative? I'm guessing that it's not and am inclined to revert these edits. But I thought I ought to post the question here first so as not to step on any toes. -- Sanfranman59 20:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I've listed several seemingly notable baseball-related individuals buried at Trinity Cemetery in Erie, Pennsylvania. I don't see a way to categorize the page to highlight the baseball information it contains. It is, after all, a cemetery article. But maybe someone from WikiProject Baseball can figure out a way to link the information? None of the individuals have a dedicated Wiki article. Greetings from Wikiproject Erie. Pat 04:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Referring to the discussion above I have re-opened the article improvement drive in hope to see it start once again. If it doesn't work we'll just have to re-mark it as inactive. But for now, go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Article improvement drive. I have also changed the votes to 2 to make it more realistic in nominations. I'll volunteer to organise this until it gets running properly. Feel free to nominate. I nominated Ty Cobb.-- Borgarde talk 13:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I'm just seeking some opinions on Talk:Josh Hancock regarding Infobox color schemes of deceased players. Please feel free to add your opinion and help to build consensus one way or the other. Thanks! I am hoping to create a guideline for Baseball infoboxes of deceased persons based on the outcome of this debate. -- KirinX 20:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm seeking some consensus on the format and content of the roster "articles". I searched through the archives of this page and only found a couple of posts from last year on this topic ( Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 1#Team_Rosters). It looks like a good deal of standardization has happened since then. With the exception Texas Rangers roster, they all look pretty much the same. But I think we can do even better. (Parenthetical question: Why are the '67 Red Sox the only historical team to merit a roster page?)
For one thing, roster pages for all three of the other major professional American sports leagues are templates that are transcluded into a list of rosters article (e.g., NFL rosters) and into each individual team's article. Only 4 baseball team rosters are set up as templates (Red Sox, Yankees, Mariners and White Sox) and there's actually also a White Sox template page that redirects to Chicago White Sox roster. I think the other sports are probably more compliant with WP guidelines and standards since the rosters really aren't articles in and of themselves.
What led me to look into this was a message I received from someone who was monitoring recent page edits. This user tagged the San Diego Padres roster page with {{context}} {{Unreferenced|date=April 2007}} {{Wikify|date=April 2007}}. If you're interested, here's a link to this user's note to me and here's a link to my response and another note from him/her. In reviewing and updating all of the roster pages to accurately reflect the current rosters (as of one or two days ago, that is), I noted the following inconsistencies:
I've created a model here for a roster template that looks pretty much like what we've already got for most teams but also incorporates a few ideas from the NFL roster templates (a border, links to each team's depth chart and transaction list on MLB.com and view, talk and edit navigation bar links).
Thoughts, concerns, obscene gestures? -- Sanfranman59 04:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Yea, I just did a small adjustment to the Red Sox, Yanks, and Jays. I really think the SP and Bullpen should be seperated. Makes sense. -- Libd84 11:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Per
Sanfranman59's comment above: I think that the lines may have been wrapping on your monitor due to the fact that you have a smaller screen resolution than I do. Regardless, I added the <small>
tags to the coaches section on my Indians roster to make them smaller as per your request. As for there needing to be a verifiable link to a roster, I need to point out that it is indeed present on my Indians roster in the lower-left corner. I placed it under the pitching staff to keep the roster template small and neat (and so there wasn't any negative space); however, if it needs to be moved on other templates, I feel that it should be moved so as to keep the templates as small height-wise as possible. Pitchers who are a part of the bullpen and make emergency starts should only be placed in the bullpen unless they're moved to the starting rotation officially. If you follow a team, you'll know who makes up the starting rotation, so I feel it should be left up to someone who follows the team closely and can reliably and accurately place pitchers in the correct section on the template. One thing I do need to point out is that everything should be alphabetized. This isn't a depth chart, so no one should try to organize it that way. I also wanted to point out a question I was thinking about when I constructed my Indians template: should we denote who plays where? For example, a small notation 3B next to a third baseman? I wasn't sure so I didn't do that. Anyway, I'm glad I could help where I could.
Wlmaltby3 –
talk/
contribs
04:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks great, guys. A couple of things to note:
Caknuck 04:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I, too, support this standardization as the proud representative of Philadelphia Phillies roster (just wait a few weeks and that sentence won't elicit chuckles). I think that the coaches' roles shouldn't be too specified so the page doesn't get too busy. And, yes, they should all be true templates, as they're not actually articles. Good call. JesseRafe 05:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The content in the 1964 College World Series was copied from the Baseball-Reference.com Bullpen without attribution. The Bullpen is a wiki site that allows copying, but only with attribution. I suspect that other CWS results pages were likewise copied. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.92.112.144 ( talk) 20:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
Based on my experience at Talk:Chris Young (baseball pitcher) the player task force categories are not working yet. TonyTheTiger ( talk/ cont/ bio) 06:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Are we supposed to use 'yyyy in baseball' wikilinks in articles every time a year is mentioned (or at least the first time each year is mentioned in the article)? Personally, I'm not sure that I see the point, but it seems to be done with some regularity. For example, when the sentence is "Wedge was drafted by the Boston Red Sox in the third round of the 1989 amateur draft.", should I wikilink 1989 as 1989? While I'm at it, is this the appropriate way to wikilink the first-year player draft? -- Sanfranman59 02:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to start a major project relating to individual MLB seasons. Any help by anyone would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Soxrock 00:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm still looking for sources for minor league players. I posted about this before, but never really got an answer.
The baseball cube has a list of ballplayers who are alumni of University High School (LA) [12]. Unfortunately, they only have draft records and no info on whether or not they actually played. This came up because someone added Damon Farmer with info about his career, and I have a feeling that the baseball cube's records are incomplete--that many of the players on the list did play--that they weren't just drafted and that was it.
But unless these people have wiki articles (which they don't), I need a source for both their attendance at the school and their notability. the baseball cube gives me the former, but not the latter--I need sources for their actually playing in the minor leagues. Can anyone help?
Also--there seem to be some professional women's baseball players who attended Uni as well. Do you have notability standards for women ball players?
See the alumni list in question: List of notable alumni of University High School (Los Angeles, California) Miss Mondegreen talk 01:40, May 26 2007 (UTC)
The members of the Baseball Players Task Force have been discussing a set of naming conventions for baseball player articles. I have posted the draft copy here. Please feel free to discuss/propose changes at the talk page for the draft copy. Thanks, Caknuck 04:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is quite inaccurate in that it says "the top 8 teams are given National Seeds which guarantees them home field advantage (provided they continue to win) throughout the tournament until the Women's College World Series." This is completely untrue in that no team is "guaranteed" home field advantage. A number of top 8 national seeds have been sent on the road. One example is Texas A&M being sent to UMass in 2006 despite being given a national seed. I can't really think of a better way to describe how home field advantage is gained through since it has quite a bit to do with how close other tournament teams are (regionality) and facilities. If anyone else has a good knowledge of softball NCAA tournament play, and can phrase this better, I think it would be good. Gwright86 09:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested in started a new task force for college baseball. I was going to create a new project at first, but I feel that is unnecessary considering there is already a baseball project. So how do I go about getting permission to start a college baseball task force? Thanks for the help. Seancp 00:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I just want to call to attention that Image:Baseball (ball) closeup.jpg is being deleted. I am making a replacement svg image to replace the ball.++ aviper2k7++ 05:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
How's this:
++ aviper2k7++ 01:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Not bad. Here's a photo of an actual major league baseball, taken by an editor:
Baseball Bugs 05:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This user is a
participant in WikiProject Baseball. |
Can you guys here at this WikiProject please try to regulate these categories so they are only used on players that appeared in a major league game for the team, and not just spring training? I keep seeing these cats. pop up on players who just went to spring training for the team and never appeared in an official major league game. -- CFIF ☎ ⋐ 16:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed a lot of pages like 1901 Baltimore Orioles season. Are these part of some WikiProject? Fbdave 19:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I personally do not see a need for a listing of any starting rotation, since rotations are continuously changing due to injury and other circumstance, so I put it up for speedy deletion. There could possibly be others, but I don't know if any exist, but I simply don't see the value of such a thing. DandyDan2007 06:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
What’s the point of putting stand-alone tables that lists a pitcher’s statistics from every start of the season. It not only clutters up an article but provides rather unsubstantial information (unless interpreted or analyzed), that can be found on other official websites that specialize in statistics (ex baseball-reference.com, mlb.com, or espn.com). Additionally, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a sports desk; it does not need second-by-second fantasy sports style updates on their favorite pitchers or players. -- ShadowJester07 ►Talk 00:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
In the case of the Ty Cobb page, for example, MLB.com has to be cited, because certain other websites insist on posting private research figures for Cobb's career as if they were the official numbers, instead of posting the actual official figures shown on MLB.com. Baseball Bugs 16:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I've recently started working on Seattle Mariners seasons, finishing 2006 and working on 2005 at the moment, wondering if it would be worth it to add the overall team statistics underneath the player statistics, and if anybody would be willing to do this for other teams season pages? -- Nightfreak 23:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I was looking at the page we have for Luke Hochevar and I saw that he has an MLB player infobox, which is missing some data such as "debut date" since he has never debuted. It looks stupid and it is misleading so I'm deleting it. But I was wondering if I'm right in doing so? Are there any "rules" here on that topic?
FYI, at Category talk:Minor league baseball players#Players with long and notable minor league careers, I've proposed a minor change in the rules for categorizing players in Category:Minor league baseball players. I would like to allow the category to include players like Buzz Arlett who are mostly known for their minor league careers, even though they played briefly in the majors. I'd appreciate getting your feedback on this proposal. BRMo 23:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I recently was able to get Happy Chandler promoted to good article, but the weakest section of the article deals with his time as commissioner of baseball. Would a member (or members) of this project like to help expand this section with an eye toward making the article FA-worthy? If so, please leave a message on my talk page. Thanks. Acdixon 18:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Though I'm not a member of the project, I noticed something that, as a baseball fan, piqued my interest. Earlier today, an editor changed the infobox on Rochester Red Wings from {{ Minor league team}} to {{ MiLB infobox}}. I have no objections to this (IMO, the MiLB infobox, since it was apparently derived from the MLB box, looks much better than the former), but it seems redundant to have two infoboxes that perform the same task. From the looks of it, the number of transclusions to {{ Minor league team}} is much higher than the number to {{ MiLB infobox}}, likely because the latter is relatively new. Which should be used? I prefer the latter, but mostly, I just wanted to bring this point up and let the project decide. -- TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 20:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone put a lot of effort making a nice 2007 Major League Baseball Draft article. However making articles for all the picks is just spending a lot of time writing garbage that will be delted, and rightly so. Being drafted does not make someone notable enough for an article. This should be elementary. For more discussion on the topic please visit the Talk page there, but I wanted to bring this to the attention of everyone here. Ekillian 05:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone help?
I asked Tecmobowl not to edit war after he removed a Fangraphs url -- which I pointed out has unique information -- from the Sandy Koufax external links section. See [13]; a summary glance at it will reveal a number of unique categories of stats. Instead, he continued to RV.
I asked him concurrently to move discussion of the issue to the talk page, instead of RVing and edit warring. Instead, he again deleted the link. [14]
In addition, while he completely failed to respond by talking on a talk page as I had suggested, he instead went to a number of additional pages that I had edited, in short order, deleting urls that similarly have unique information, such as ESPN, Baseball Almanac, Baseball Cube, and Baseball Library, from the external links. See diffs at John Grabow, Jason Marquis, and Brad Ausmus. And even as I have been writing this I see that he has made similar innapropriate deletions to Moe Berg, Bo Belinsky, José Bautista, Morrie Arnovich, Cal Abrams, Ben Zeskind, Josh Appell, Ryan Braun, John Grabow, Sam Fuld, Brian Horwitz, and Aaron Rifkin.
I wrote all this to him on his talk page, asking him to desist, discuss, and bring in a third party to discuss if necessary. Instead, he has ignored me, and has now deleted urls from even more baseball players. See Mike Lieberthal, Sid Gordon, Harry Feldman, Mike Epstein, Harry Danning, Lou Boudreau, and Ron Blomberg.
I believe that this behavior is highly disruptive and innapropriate. Can anyone here help? Much obliged. I've raised this all on Tecmobowl's talk page -- [15] -- so if you wish to help that may be a good place to go. Thanks.-- Epeefleche 08:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Centralization of Discussion. Given that discussion has taken place on various pages, I am moving some it from User talk:Tecmobowl, User talk:Nishkid64, and User talk:Wizardman to this page, inserting it above chronologically, and formatting this page somewhat for readability.
Failure to Discuss rather than Edit War. I stand by what I said above as to Tecmobowl's failure to respond to my multiple requests to stop edit warring, and instead discuss this on a talk page. He failed to do so, his comments to the contrary above notwithstanding. He instead simply continued to delete urls, with his only comment being the unsupported one inserted in the edit summary of his changes that there is nothing unique about the Fansgraphs url. His first comment on a talk page was the one above at 08:40, 31 May 2007, in which he incorrectly stated that he had not failed to communicate.
Even worse, since I wrote my above comments to Tecmobowl and the community, even while this discussion has been going on, he has continued to delete what are now hundreds of such urls, including urls in the bios of Barney Pelty, Jake Pitler, Scott Radinsky, Jimmie Reese, Dave Roberts, Al Rosen, Goodwin Rosen, Art Shamsky, Larry Sherry, Norm Sherry, Moe Solomon, George Stone, Steve Stone, Steve Wapnick, Phil Weintraub, Steve Yeager, Eddie Zosky, Gabe Kapler, Matt Ford, Al Levine, Scott Schoeneweis, Adam Stern, Craig Breslow, Adam Greenberg, Ian Kinsler, Scott Feldman, Mike Koplove, Shawn Green, and Justin Wayne. Can anyone stop him from continuing this disruptive behavior while this discussion is going on and, if possible, have those revisions reverted? Thanks.-- Epeefleche 19:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Failure to Discuss rather than Edit War. To again clarify, I stand by all my above statements about my requesting that Tecmobowl stop what are now his hundreds of deletions and reverts, and instead discuss this on a talk page, and his failure to do so. Instead he continuing his disruptive activity. The vast majority of his deletions took place after my entreaties. He failed to make an appearance on a talk page until the above-indicated one. And then, he continued to delete hundreds of urls during the discussion. Interested readers, if they exist, can look at the diffs and see that I made no misrepresentations, but that Tecmobowl did and continues to do so.
And even now, at 19:55, May 31, 2007, [16] Tecmobowl deleted a fangraphs entry on this article page, writing "removed ... a site that does not seem to provide the unique information that was claimed." Despite agreement in this discussion by all other than him to the contrary.
Consensus vs. Boldness. Tecmobowl appears from his above comments to not be terribly partial to consensus. As that would not be "bold." Tecmobowl indicates that instead he has to be convinced. Is there any way that anyone can share to keep Tecmobowl from engaging in activity that he believes is bold, and therefore acceptable, but that is actually highly disruptive? Perhaps one of the admins has some thoughts here? We are already suffering from 100s of deletions, he fails to RV them, and Tecmobowl indicates that his intention unless he is convinced otherwise is to continue to engage in this behavior.
Falsehoods. Tecmobowl, with what I am bound to assume is good faith intent, asserts that I have "reverted every single edit" he performed. That is a complete falsehood. Anyone looking at a sampling of the above urls to which I cited can see that what I am saying is true, and that what Tecmobowl is saying is an untruth. Unfortunately, his actions have now risen to become one of the two issues here -- the more distateful one to deal with, but one that interferes with our making Wiki a better tool, and therefore an important issue.
As to his above comment about my having added Fangraphs today to 2 players, that is true.
URLs. As to the second and more interesting issue, I am following with interest the discussion of others as to the uniqueness of the info in the Fangraphs url, for example (the dispute that started this entire matter), and the appropriateness of including urls (in external links or elsewhere) that present information that is relevant and not redundant. I will chime in on this at some point, but wanted to consider what the experts have to say before I do.-- Epeefleche 01:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that this is a very good starting point, Sanfranman. I've looked at the 4 urls that you mention, strictly from the standpoint of uniqueness of their stats as they appear on the urls' player pages. Of course some of the urls also offer unique functionality, leader pages, bios, etc. But there is enough that is unique in the stats themselves, IMHO. You will find my analysis a number of paragraphs below. -- Epeefleche 22:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
You are half correct Miss M. One focus of the above conversation is indeed Tecmo's behavior -- his deletion of 100s of urls, first while ignoring entreaties to discuss on a talk page, and then concurrent with a talk page discussion that I started. He did this even after two admins suggested, at the very outset, that he had deleted appropriate external links -- and that he should not do so without discussion.
The second focus of the above conversation consisted of discussion by a number of editors as to why they thought the urls should not be deleted. I gather that you missed that. I'm confused as to why. You indicate above that the discussion makes "no attempt at discussing what sort of links are acceptable etc." But if you look at the above you will note just such a discussion by a number of editors. I, for example, pointed out that Fangraphs "has unique information," and that the same was the case with others that he had deleted, "such as ESPN, Baseball Almanac, Baseball Cube, and Baseball Library." Admin Nishkid said: "I see no problems with the Fangraphs link. It provides unique statistical information that can't be found at Baseball-Reference or any other baseball statistical website." Admin Wizardman wrote: "I ... before putting the links back myself, actually viewed them to see if they were unique. Based on the information they offered, most of the links you've been deleting have in fact been unique." Editor Allansohn said above: "See WP:NOT#LINK which states that 'Wikipedia articles are not: Mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article'. In no way, shape or form do the presence of these links violate Wikipedia policy. As can be seen from the discussion here, there is no consensus that these links should be removed." Baseball Bugs indicated "I use some of them (such as Baseball-Reference and Baseball-Almanac) frequently; and (2) they are not duplicates of each other, each offers unique info, including info different from MLB.com." Given that you indicate in the heading to your comments that you are a "really uninvolved editor," I'm not clear how you completely missed all of that -- and just got the gist of Tecmo's take on things. But of course I assume good faith, and I imagine that with all of this commentary, discussion is difficult to follow. In any event, I hope this helps, and as you know the substantive conversation is developed even further below by Sanfranman and others.-- Epeefleche 10:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Sanfranman's above observation.-- Epeefleche 22:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Sanfranman's above thoughtful analysis. -- Epeefleche 22:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
As I detail below, Fangraphs also has a great deal of unique information. -- Epeefleche 22:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Procedure -- going forward. I've discussed above Tecmobowl's failure to discuss, edit warring, and rampant deletion of important urls -- even during this discussion. I'm open to suggestions as to how to remedy this. As well as to what actions, if any, we might take with regard to violations and threatened violations of Wiki policy.
I reiterate my request that Tecmobowl now, during the pendency of this discussion, restore the urls that he deleted from the talk pages.
Questioned URLs. I see nothing in Wiki policy that entitles Tecmobowl to, in even the worst case, do anything other than tag a url that he questions with the
template. Blanket deletion is not acceptable. The above discussion suggests that even such tags may not be appropriate with regard to some or all of the urls discussed here.
Fangraphs. Tecmobowl -- please let us know whether you agree with the above general consensus of the uniqueness of the Fansgraph urls. If you do, kindly restore all of those urls that you have deleted -- in this case, without tags.
What Should be Linked. Wiki policy provides that we "should" link sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to amount of detail, "such as professional athlete statistics."
In addition, sites "with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article."
Other considerations are whether the url is useful, informative, and factual.
I believe that the urls at issue here, some of which are statistical in nature, others of which are biographical in nature, and still others of which (such as Fangraphs) are hybrid in nature, all meet these criteria.
Link Farm. As to Tecmobowl's above observation that Wiki is not a link farm, I note that a link farm is "any group of web pages that all hyperlink to every other page in the group." That is not the issue here, as User:Wizardman points out above.
Counting Links in other Bios. Tecmobowl suggests that we should determine the appropriate number of links by looking at the number of external links in other players' bios. To demonstrate the fallacy of Tecmobowl's approach, one might glance at the article on Willie Mays. You guessed it -- zero external links. (I'm assuming, for purposes of this discussion, that the Say Hey Kid qualifies as notable in Tecmobowl's view). The fact that no one has added links to other bios, or that deletionists such as Tecmobowl have removed the links, carries no weight in this discussion.
In addition, if someone has interest in a less-accomplished player, and adds links to that player's bio, there is no reason to decrease the helpfulness of that article by deleting such links simply because no one has demonstrated similar interest in improving the Willie Mays article, for example (or that of another notable player).
Redundancy. I for one have no problem with the deletion of a url that is wholly redundant, in content and form, of another included url. If any exist here. I'm not aware of that being the case. Tecmobowl glosses over this issue by saying above that 7 urls that he points to: "are all essentially the same: statistics sites." He fails to recognize that while they all contain statistics, many (such as Fangraphs) certainly contain different statistics, and the others contain statistics that are presentable, formattable, and/or accessable differently. -- Epeefleche 20:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Low-Hanging Fruit. Sanfranman59 has identified 4 links that in his view offer enough information to warrant including them in virtually every major league player article. For starters, some thoughts on those urls. Once we have addressed them, we can more easily address the others, keeping our eye out for any that are completely duplicative in both content and format. Bottom line, I agree with Sanfranman, and with the other editors' comments that I have summarized below.
I believe that Sanfranman's proposed grid, with a row for each web site and columns for each type of information presented on the web site's pages (basic statistics, advanced/sabermetric-type statistics, splits, batter vs. pitcher stats, biographical information, minor league/college stats, transaction history, graphical displays, game logs, player news, etc), will be helpful and supportive of the view that these urls each contain unique information. -- Epeefleche 09:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Consensus? I believe that the above reflects a degree of consensus (if not unanimity) about the above four urls. It also demonstrates with specificity that each url contains largely unique information. If anyone has any further comments with regard to them, please weigh in. The next step will be to take a look at some of the other urls that have been mentioned. -- Epeefleche 22:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
It appears that we now have a 7-2 vote in favor of keeping Fangraphs. And Tecmo's reason for not keeping it -- his suggestion that it is not unique -- has been disproven.
He has also indicated that he does not now have a problem with Baseball Cube, Baseball Reference, and MLB. I would ask Tecmo to restore all ELs of those 3 urls which he has deleted. It clearly will be too much work for the rest of us to find them, now that they have been deleted, and since he deleted them without consensus I would suggest that it is only proper that he restore them. This, in fact, is one of the reasons that I would suggest that when there is a dispute about baseball urls, the rule should be (indeed, I think it is, as with deleting articles) that we keep the url pending conclusion of the discussion. It is easier to then find the article and delete the url -- we need only do a search. To find the articles that formerly had such urls, which Tecmo has deleted, is a more difficult exercise.-- Epeefleche 07:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
As far as I can see, BR-Bullpen is a wiki. Are we considering this to be a reliable source? (I lean towards no on this). If not, does it have value as an external link?-- Kathy A. 15:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
"let the bully have his way"
"I see nothing in Wiki policy that entitles Tecmobowl to, in even the worst case, do anything other than tag a url that he questions with the {{ linkfarm}} template. Blanket deletion is not acceptable. The above discussion suggests that even such tags may not be appropriate in some or all of the urls discussed here."
Apparantly no one can undersand why Tecmo won't respond to comments on his talk page. I can't imagine that the article talk pages, oh or here might be a better place. Why don't we take a straw poll and find out who watched Tecmo's talk page. Let me tell you now that unless you canvass watchers of Tecmo's talk page to come and vote here, watchers of this page will still win, if only by the margin of my vote. Theoretically the interested editors would watch baseball pages, and not be obsessed with Tecmo. Why would the discussion take place there? Not to mention, that certain editors can't seem to discuss issues politely, and are taking that beyond this conversation--in fact, interjecting themselves into other conversations Tecmo is having.
[21]
And let's not forget Epeefleche's canvassing for help in his side of the revert war--asking other editors to come and revert Tecmo's edits, because yes, you only opened discussion here after you'd used all of your reverts, and in fact, already been reported (incorrectly) for a 3RR.
Do I see evidence of abysmal behavoir? Yes. Blockable behavoir? Yes. On Tecmo's part? Not by a longshot.
Now about the content. First, I think everyone needs to really READ Wikipedia:External links. It's a great page. It has lists of what to include, what not to include and what to do if y'all can't get along. That whole linkfarm thing that you're slicing and dicing and saying "oh, but articles aren't linkfarms"...oh, I'll just quote:
Long lists of links are not appropriate: Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links. If you find a long list of links in an article, you can tag the "External links" section with the {{ linkfarm}} template. Where editors have not reached consensus on an appropriate list of links, a link to a well chosen web directory category could be used until such consensus can be reached. The Open Directory Project is often a neutral candidate, and may be added using the {{ dmoz}} template.
He was not "entitled" to tag or delete? What? First, we don't recieve entitlement to edit from policies and guidelines. We don't sit, waiting patiently for the policies and guidelines to give us permission for what to edit next. It's an open wiki! We have policies and guidelines to GUIDE us. To tell us what things to strive for, what things to avoid. Not to provide us with the entitlement to edit.
This guideline advises editors to tag these lists--at the least. Or, you can be bold and be helpful and do the cleanup yourself, especially if your an editor who knows the article. Tags help editors who see a problem and don't know how to deal with it alert people to the problem. Most of Tecmo's edits were clean-cut, removing things that were specifically not ok, or were duplicates and he's discussing the ones that people have problems with.
UNIQUE
Now let's clear up something else. Everyone's going on about this or that is UNIQUE. What does the word unique come from? It comes from this line in WP:EL:
"Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article."
Unique information. Not compared to the other links. Not compared to the current status of the article. Information that is unique and that would never be included in a featured article. External links aren't sources--Tecmo's right, you guys are treating articles like link farms, using the external links to tell people what you haven't bothered to write. Most of the stuff he's removing: they're prefectly adequate sources--you just have to write the stuff and add them as footnotes and references. You have to write the additional articles and add see alsos. External links are--you liked this article? See the complete stats here and the official website here, and an interview here. Stuff that can't be included or shouldn't be included. External links are not--we couldn't tell the basic story of this person's life so here's the obituary and here's what these websites say. That's a cop-out and that's why the guidelines are so strict.
Obituaries
Speaking of obituaries--not all are ok external links. Here are the guidelines that would apply:
- Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons.
- Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.
- Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.
Is there something particular about the obituary that makes it special that can't be included? Interviews or anecdotes? In this case, both copyright, length, inappropriate--whatever, all of these things would keep this information from the article, but it would still be inportant information. However, if there's nothing in the obituary that wouldn't be in the article if it became a featured article--then it's not an appropriate link. I have a feeling that it's that criteria that exclude a lot of these external links. It's not that they aren't great sources--it's that the material should be in the article, and that they should be listed as notes or references instead.
Choosing a statistics site
WP:EL says that masses of detail that can't be incorperated (in this case, that's statistics) are good--duplicate links are not. This wikiproject should choose a site, taking into consideration access, longevity and the quality of the site. Also, some players might have more or better statistics elsewhere, so use a different site for them. Keep the WP:EL guidelines in mind when choosing a site--you have a choice here. Something where access is limited is not ok, and if the site is often reconfigured etc, or it's not a stable link, that's a bad choice too.
#12: Open wikis
"Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors."
That's up to the wikiproject to decide. But look carefully at the other requirements. I have a feeling that even if it's decided to be a reliable source, it's not a good external link. The two are entirely seperate.
Now, about that shoeless joe link. If this ( [22]) is in fact the link that Tecmo has been adding--that's problematic. I see no text other than Lorem Ipsum, which is highly suspect. Tecmo is right--sites that sell stuff are allowed, but the content would have to be, well, unique, something I couldn't judge as I didn't see anything other than cards and stats. WP:EL says that there's generally something that's not pushing a product and it's usually right.
There is a very clear, highly specific guideline on exactly what to do with external links. I'd like to see all future conversation just going over that and how to move forward. Does the project think x is stable... what articles need expanding--maybe it would help the articles if when ELs were removed from the article, they were listed on the talk page so that editors of the article had a starting list of sources to expand the article with. But if editors are going to continue making personal attacks and continuing their bad behavoir, I'll take those editors to ANI myself just to get them to shutup. I really don't care who started it or if Tecmo was behaving badly days ago (though I have still to see no evidence of that--I don't want to either, move on!) He's not the one behaving badly now and his explanations of removal of links seem in compliance with WP:EL. I disagree with him on certain things--like his explanation of numbers of external links in articles by importance, and if that blacksoxfan link is being added, that link is a problem, but I find the rest of his editing to be good clean-up work.
Remember, external links are not sources. Take a look at your FA articles. They have appropriate external links, both in number and content. They aren't using them as a replacment for sources and neither should the smallest stub. Though the Sandy Koufax EL section needs work. Some of those links look like they probably duplicate information, and most of them are missing explanations of what they are. Look at the Ted Radcliff article for an example of what an external link section should look like. Miss Mondegreen talk 01:12, June 2 2007 (UTC)
Tecmo today, having returned after being blocked for 48 hours for 2 violations of the 3RR while deleting Fansgraphs urls, [23] continues to delete Fangraphs urls. [24] This, despite the above discussion and 7-2 vote in favor of not deleting Fangraphs. And despite the 69 unique categories of data. Can someone suggest how we stop this behavior? -- Epeefleche 15:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Miss M--as the heading here suggests, the focus under the above heading is limited to how we enforce violations of consensus regarding Fangraphs. If you have comments in that regard, please share them. If you have comments about other matters discussed in an earlier headings, as seems to be the case, for them to be read by interested parties you might do well to insert them there. Whereupon I will be pleased to respond to any that call for a response. To discuss them here, instead, would be to scatter the discussion and needlessly make it difficult to follow. As far as discussing Baseball Almanac, etc., as you know from the above we are first seeking to determine some urls that we agree are appropriate for inclusion. We started with mlb.com, baseball reference, baseball cube, and fangraphs. The discussion is under an above header. We will move on to other urls once a consensus has been reached with regard to those. I imagine (and I would support) that any urls wholly redundant in data and format be deleted. We have not seen that to be the case yet, however, and it indubitably is not the case with Fangraphs.
You might clarify your points above as to Baseball Cube and Baseball Reference, under the appropriate header. Are you suggesting, in opposition to Tecmo, that they should be deleted? As to your further comment about Baseball Cube, Tecmo has indeed at times deleted it.
Tecmo had now been blocked for the 3rd time in 3 days for violating Wiki's 3RR, this time with regard to Kevin Youkilis.
He is also blatantly violating consensus as well, as is demonstrated above.
One last point. You say, "Maybe all of the statistics sites frame the same information slightly differently or provide slightly different information." I'm not sure whether you understand how dramatically that understates the situation. There is nothing "slightly different" about dozens of categories of Fangraphs data. I'm frankly astounded that you, someone commenting on this page and therefore one would think at least rudimentarily aware of the nature of the statistics that we are discussing, would make such a wrong-headed comment. -- Epeefleche 07:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Miss M--The focus under the above heading (.4) is limited to how we enforce violations of consensus regarding Fangraphs. You are the only one discussing anything else in this section. When you discuss other urls where they are discussed above, I shall be happy to respond to any comments that call for responses. Scattering discussion in the manner that you are doing only serves to confuse other readers. I'm not sure what your view is on Fangraphs, but I gather from your commments that baseball statistics are not your area of expertise.-- Epeefleche 09:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I clarified the heading given that it was not clear enough for you. The content here has always been limited, other than by you, to the content in the heading. No need to use words like bull. It would be appreciated if you would elevate your conversation. Should you choose to discuss this where others will read it, along with other comments on the same topic, I will be happy to engage you in discussion of your curious view that we should pare these down to one one statistics site, and your other views. I'll spare others the need, however, to follow this discussion all around in disorganized scattered fashion as they would have to if I opened up substantive discussion here. -- Epeefleche 15:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Holderca1. I agree that we need to decide which websites are to be included across the board. Putting it into a template sounds like a great idea, if beyond my own abiities. And adding it to every player bio sounds like much work for someone, but also sounds like a positive approach. As you will see above in the section "low hanging fruit," some of us have been trying to effect just that sort of forward movement, starting first with the 4 urls Baseball Reference, Baseball Cube, MLB, and Fangraphs. If you would like to add your voice to that consensus building effort, please do. Once that has been done, we will be in a position to address some of the other urls that have been mentioned, and seek consensus on them as well. I agree as well with your comments on WP:EL.-- Epeefleche 20:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
While I appreciate the attempts of certain editors to include this site unilaterally, the discussion here did not reach a consensus. At this time, the link has been removed from a portion of the articles it has been included upon. If anyone would like to discuss the merits of this link, please feel free to do so. DO NOT DISCUSS who said what and why and when and all that...this is about the content, and nothing more. Please familiarize yourself with WP:EL and at least one users response on this discussion. The community is larger than those that edit baseball pages. Also, bare in mind that if the information is largely equivalent to other sites already accepted by the community, that impacts the said links usefulness. // Tecmobowl 16:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm in the process of putting it back into order, but I would appreciate it if some people would help me with the upkeep. Leave a message on Portal talk:Baseball if you're interested. ¿SFGi Д nts! ☺ ☻ 21:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
We really need people who can speak French to edit the fr:Projet:Baseball on the French Wikipedia. Most of the hall-of-famers and current stars like Justin Morneau and Torii Hunter do not have articles on there. If anyone is interest contact User talk:Mglovesfun. Mglovesfun 21:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone at WikiProject Baseball please check on the term, to be it seems to be a work of fiction, but someone in the know might be able to shed a little light on the matter. If it is fiction, then it's a quite likely nomination for a speedy delete I think.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by NigelJ ( talk • contribs) 01:59, 25 March 2007.
Hi, I apologize if this is the wrong place to ask this question, but I was wondering if there has been any discussion of creating a "This Date in Baseball" box on the front page of the portal. Does anyone know about this, and would people like to do this? There are certainly plenty of places to find information like this. Msmays 17:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
This is beyond out of control and bordering insanity. No more discussion, you all had your chance numerous times, but it seems that is too much to ask. Seriously folks, I don't get it, for example, in one breath Tecmo complains that the conversation is split up over multiple locations, then he procedes to make a new section and starts discussing there. That is just one example of the insanity that has occurred. Okay, this is it. Here is the straw poll, put either support or oppose, no discussion with the votes. -- Holderca1 12:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
External links to be included on player pages:
Support
Oppose
Neutral
All four of the sites serve important and separate purposes.
Thanks, Caknuck 19:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
As suggested by the mediator above, I have filed at [29], the Wikipedia:Community sanction noticeboard, under User:Tecmobowl, a request for an indefinite block.-- Epeefleche 20:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Just a heads-up that I've proposed modifying the "25/40-man roster" section of Major League Baseball transactions here. Thanks in advance for any and all feedback. -- Sanfranman59 20:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
You guys/gals should seperate all your team pages (like you've done with Montreal Expos and Washington Nationals). It cuts down on 'bloated' historic information about teams. It's how we do it at Wikipedia: WikiProject Ice Hockey. Just my opinon. GoodDay 17:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
On further review, I see that teams like the Braves and the Orioles give their original establishment date and then say "based in ____ since ____". That's how the Expos-Nats article should be done also... especially as the Expos have 35 years of history and the Nats have only 3, so far. The Nats should say "established 1969... based in Washington since 2005." In fact, it does. It features the Expos prominently and points to another article for details. Arguably, the same kind of spinoff could be done for other multi-city teams... or even one-city teams, which the Bears basically are (forgetting the Decatur cup of coffee) as they have a spinoff history article. Baseball Bugs 20:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
If I may throw in my two cents, I have to agree with GoodDay. While it might be true that the LA Dodgers have embraced the history of the Brooklyn Dodgers, its also true that people in Brooklyn have not embraced the history of the LA Dodgers. People in Brooklyn who remember the Dodgers probably do not want to look up Brooklyn Dodgers and find it under the Los Angeles Dodgers. I think one other consideration to be made is that if articles were separated, it would prevent them from being so large that they would eventually have to be separated. Even when it comes to the Seattle Pilots, they should have their own article. Don't forget, there are articles on the Louisville Colonels and the original Baltimore Orioles and no one alive remembers those teams. DandyDan2007 20:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I have suggested on
Talk:Los Angeles Dodgers and
Talk:Montreal Expos that historic incarnations' pages can be subtitled with an infobox reading
Team X1 / Franchise:
Team X2
In the end, I don't think long pages are good, so spinning info off onto separate pages is user-friendly. It also encourages the expansion of said articles. There is a related discussion going on at
Talk:Dallas_Stars where many good points are made for retaining separate articles on franchise incarnations.
--
Exshpos
21:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
This discussion kind-of started up a couple of sections, but it seems a good idea to give it a new start here. Many MLB team articles are much longer than Wikipedia's recommended length of 40kb (it was recently pointed out that the Yankees article is 108kb!). In my opinion, this is not so much of a problem as it might be. If we were talking about 108kb of solid text, then that is most definitely too long. But these team pages have accumulated quite a number of tables and infoboxes and endnotes and other assorted information, which add to the length in kb but not to the average reader's burden. Personally, I think most of this information should stay on the main team pages, where it is most accessible. The main exception is the "season-by-season record", which gets exceedingly long for the century-old teams and throws up a barrier against the casual reader getting to whatever comes after it. Can't the record be put on a side page? As for team histories, the pages I've seen are mostly all right, though some vigorous editing is needed to keep a concise historical perspective on recent events, rather than giving a detailed blow-by-blow account of each season. That's my take on the topic. Bugs? Yankees fans? -- BlueMoonlet 06:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to attempt to get some community consensus on the unofficial nicknames that have been cropping up on MLB team pages. As User:Seidenstud pointed out here, the lead section "should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points..." Furthermore, "the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources." Alternate names such as "The Boys in Blue" for the Royals or "The Bless You Boys" for the Tigers are not essential information belonging in a concise overview. Most of these names are contractions or journalistic flourishes and, though some may be used by the team for marketing, they are quite simply not the team's proper name. If editors think it is encyclopedic to note that the Rockies are sometimeis called "The Rocks," then further down in the page might be a fine place to do it. For some unofficial nicknames, such as A's and D-backs, I don't mind having them in the lead paragraph, as they are commonly used to properly refer to the team, rather than as playful flourishes. But the infobox should be reserved for proper information.
To give a brief history, I informed User:Silent Wind of Doom (who, as far as I can tell, originated all of the edits I am opposing) of my opinion and invited him to discuss the issue before I took any action. After several days with no response, I went ahead and made the edits. Some have been reverted, and most of those by User:Silent Wind of Doom or his ally User:Baseball Bugs, but there does not seem to have been a general outcry over what I did, and there also seems to be some support. I have no reason to doubt everyone's good faith, so I think the best thing to do is discuss the matter here and then take a vote. -- BlueMoonlet 15:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello. Silent Wind of Doom here. Just going to add all the discussion from talk pages, as has taken place up to now:
BlueMoonlet's original post:
Hi SWoD. I am sorry to say it, but I think the "nicknames" that you have added to the pages of all 30 teams in Major League Baseball have got to go. They are unsourced and unofficial, and do not belong in an encyclopedia. Names like "Redbirds", "Blue Crew", and "BoSox" are journalistic flourishes; it is always clear from the context what is meant, and a reader who had not heard of such names does not need to be told to use them by an encyclopedia. Names like "the Rocks" and "the Bravos" practically seem like you made them up just to have something for each team. There are a few names, such as "Bronx Bombers", that have enough usage to perhaps merit mention somewhere in the article. But even these do not belong next to the actual team name, in the introductory paragraph or the infobox.
In conclusion, "Dodgers" and "Yankees" are official team nicknames. Any other nickname is unnecessary to identify the team. You are likely to disagree with me here; as far as I can tell, you are the one who added all these nicknames to the pages. If that is so, then I would like for you to choose the forum in which we can discuss the matter. -- BlueMoonlet 00:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
SWoD's response:
Forgive me. It's been a rough week or so, and your comments on my discussion page have slipped my mind. As you've mentioned I would, I greatly disagree with you. The "official nicknames" as you call them, are known as that harkening back to the time when the teams were officially known as Baltimore, Cincinnati, and Chicago AL and names like Orioles, Reds, and Cubs were "nicknames" used by fans and the media. Nowadays, these aren't nicknames, they're just the names of the teams. The nicknames are names which are used by the fans, the media, and, in most cases, the team and it's broadcasters. You've already noted the circulation of "Bronx Bombers". "A's" is more frequently used than Athletics. "Blue Crew" is what the dodgers are referred to in the name of the team's organization-owned fan club. "Cubbies" is used not only by fans, but by the organization during the singing of "Take Me Out to the Ball Game".
These nicknames are information about the team, and should not be excluded. First of all, they are other names for the subject, and those go in the lead, more often than not in bold like the subject's standard or full name. The nicknames usually take up a small block of text in the lead, and are sometimes taken care of in one sentence or in a few words in a set of parenthesis. I think that, when you say "They are also known as" or something to that effect before mentioning the names, they're in enough context for people to figure out what they mean. The article isn't telling people to use them, but it does explain that they are other names for the team, and in many instances explains the meaning behind them. As for the infobox, that is one nickname, the most widely used one, that we put there. The only instances where the most widely used one is not the one displayed is when it comes to the Red Sox and the White Sox, where they share the nickname "The Sox". I have not added all the nicknames for these teams, and, in fact, I've been joined by other wikipedians who want these names to stay on their pages. The White Sox and Cubs pages have repeatedly tried to add more nicknames to the infobox, but more than one makes it too crowded. The Mets page's people have already reverted your changes, with no prompting by me. I've not added all the nicknames, and didn't even know of most of them until the good people of each page's own little community revealed them. In fact, I didn't even add them all to the infoboxes.
The nicknames have never been fought against (the only exception being the Braves), and have, in fact, been added to. The people have embraced them, changing them, if need be. They are not unsourced and unencyclopedic. No name has been added by me unless I had firsthand knowledge, or have researched the name and seen that it is used by the media or the fans. Most, if not all, are used by the organization at the stadium, on merchandize, by broadcasters, or in websites. I believe that's enough to be considered "official". These things are information about the team, and as such, should be included. -- Silent Wind of Doom 04:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
A few comments by Baseball Bugs which have shown up this past day on SWoD's talk page:
BlueMoonlet's final comments on SWoD's page:
That is the discussion up to now. As I do not have time at the moment, I will adress BlueMoonlet's new comments at a later time today. -- Silent Wind of Doom 16:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
First, and foremost, as he said previously, I am not "allied" with Baseball Bugs. In fact, noticing his name on a few edits was the only relationship I had with him up until his support on this matter.
Now that I've gotten that out of the way, on to the task at hand. The lead section of the article does concisely sum things up, give a little overview of the subject, but it is also a place to give such information as alternative names. The nicknames are alternate names. It's just a short little aside that mentions these names. Now, given, there are instances, such as the Yankees page (where it has been accepted), where it's going to be longer, but most lead sections for nicknames are going to be smaller than the one in the Cubs page, which you seem to have accepted. As for the infobox, I definitely think that "A's" has to be there, because it is used more than "Athletics". Nicknames such a "Bronx Bombers", "Cubbies", "Blue Crew", "D-Backs", "Jays", and "The Tribe" are all engrained in the organization, merchandizing, even the uniforms. "Bless You Boys", "Nats", and "Blake Street Bombers" are all engrained in the history and traditions. The nicknames are not arbitrary labels. They are a part of the organization, a tool of the media, and a part of the hearts of fans. These mean something, and should be given space in the infobox. They are an important part of the team's culture. As they are a name, I think they should be tagged on with the name, and I think that, in most instances, this is simple and non-intrusive. The infobox is just one little line, an also known as, and it's being kept to one name there so as not to cause clutter. The only thing that I regret is the fact that I always finish and then never have a good way to end. Maybe I should just do what Frank Caliendo suggested Bush do, and say "The end." -- Silent Wind of Doom 04:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, are we any closer to a solution? I'd be willing to accept an NFL-like solution for the infobox, in exchange for removing alternate nicknames from the top of the infobox, and removing the more playful nicknames (exceptions include A's, D-backs, others to be discussed) from the lead paragraphs. Is that acceptable to others? Shall we do the same for stadiums? All we need is someone who knows enough about writing templates to do the job. -- BlueMoonlet 17:08, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
No, no, no. "Cards" is not the team's official proper name. Yes, it is a legitimate alternate name used by the team, which is why it is prominently mentioned in the lead paragraph as well as in the infobox. But it is in fact an "other nickname". There is no need for further multiplication of categories. Hopefully Agne27 will add to this conversation if she continues to disagree. -- BlueMoonlet 23:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Somebody's fooling around with your recent changes, and not always getting it right, either. Baseball Bugs 03:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The NFL template has an "if" statement so that the "other nicknames" field only appears if there are nicknames to fill it. We need something like that in the MLB template. Also, you've got to let go of things like "Washington Nationals </br> "The Nats"", because it appears lower down in the "Name" field as well. -- BlueMoonlet 04:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Do I just add my name to the list, or are there other things I have to do. -- HPJoker 21:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I have restarted a discussion on including dates in the MLB division standings templates at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/2007 MLB team articles#Standings dates (again). Please chime in, whatever your views on this issue. - BillCJ 04:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I created an article for Town Team Baseball (Minnesota), and because I know that town team baseball exists in other states, I wonder whether it would be appropriate to have a parent article. I also would like to tie this in with the baseball project, but don't know how to proceed. Somebody want to advise me? Spottacus 15:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to a tip by User:Miss Mondegreen, I learned of a reprint of Ernest Lanigan's pioneering 1922 book, the Baseball Cyclopedia, which I ordered from McFarland Publishers [31] and which arrived today. Lanigan was the original "Figger Filbert", and the record books and encyclopedias that came afterward built on his work. Baseball Bugs 23:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
The Babe Ruth article was completely replaced by a much older version on June 30, with the cryptic edit summary "rv to last good version" by User:Mr Monty Marbles. This older version has a dozen dead image links and not one single in-line citation. To compare with last pre-replacement version, click here. I for one find this objectionable and have proposed reversion by consensus on the article's talk page. Because of the importance of Babe Ruth to baseball, I thought it would be a good idea to bring this to the attention of the Baseball Project members, as well. JGHowes talk - 05:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
...does not work. Its intent is to look up the player's page on the Hall of Fame website. However, they are listed by an ID rather than by player name. For example, the posted link to Sparky Anderson WikiProject Baseball/Archive 3 at the Baseball Hall of Fame takes you to a default "I can't find it" page. The actual page for Sparky is playerId=110238. Baseball Bugs 18:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to see some of the succession boxes condensed. On pages like Sandy Koufax, Frank Robinson, and Bob Gibson (amongst MANY others), the lists are ridiculously long. The inundate the reader with information and clutter the articles. I would think that we should try and stick to 5-6 (or there abouts). For players with multiple titles in a particular category (think Babe Ruth and Home Runs), i would suggest we use the first available "succession" and not multiple examples. Thoughts? // Tecmobowl 05:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Why not make them collapsible? Have them collapsed when the page is opened and if someone wants to view them, the click "Show." -- Holderca1 21:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
See Roger Clemens for collapsed succession boxes. I think this should be agreeable to everyone. -- Holderca1 00:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent) I missed the discussion, but I like the separated boxes like Barry Bonds and Frank Robinson as well as the collapsed Roger Clemens boxes. I think both techniques should be combined. I may get around to doing both to Sandy Koufax. -- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 19:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I've created a template {{ Baseball pitches}} and started cleaning up some of these articles. I was hoping to get some input on how to organize these articles. Right now, I have "history", "throwing mechanics", "uses", and "professional practitioners" as the standard headings as seen in slider. I don't like the wording of "professional practitioners" but I do not know what to change it to. I'm also planning on giving the different fastballs there own articles since the other specific types of pitches have their own articles. Basar 02:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Alright I made an image of a slider. Please tell me this is accurate?++ aviper2k7++ 05:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Whoever decided to put team colors in the player infoboxes created a minefield of POV-pushing. There is the ongoing battle over Reggie Jackson, for example. There is some debate over Nolan Ryan. There is also the idiotic attempts to attach Casey Stengel to the Mets colors, despite the fact that Casey's greatest achievements were with the Yankees, as well as the fact that he's wearing a Yankees cap on his Hall of Fame plaque (like Reggie). The bottom line is that posting team colors puts wikipedia in the position of "deciding" which team a multi-team player is most-associated with. It's easy for one-team or mostly-one-team players. But many prominent players have played on multiple teams. The team colors are cute and pretty but they are merely decorative and are inherently problematic. Baseball Bugs 14:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I've only got something to say about Nolan Ryan. I noticed that the color of the infobox was a bright-red because of the current Angels colors. I left a notice about this at Talk:Nolan Ryan on June 26, but nobody responded to my comment. Below is the comment I left there:
“ | I take the assumption that the current colors for Ryan's infobox reflect him playing for the California Angels. But to me, the colors look too much more like the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim's colors. California's team colors were a bit darker. See Image:CalAngels93.GIF for an image of their logo, which shows that the team's colors are a bit darker shade of red. I think the infobox colors should reflect this. | ” |
If the colors do remain in the infoboxes, then Nolan Ryan's should reflect the colors of the team from when he played with that team, which in this case would be a much darker shade of red than is currently used in the Angels' current logo. –– Ksy92003 (talk) 23:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed we have articles going back to the 2004 Major League Baseball Draft. Perhaps we should work on doing, slowly, articles on the older drafts as well? It could be helpful for comparing the careers of players, etc. matt91486 23:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I am hoping we can create some guidelines on baseball lists. Yesterday, I spent some time creating List of Major League Baseball leaders in career stolen bases after I thought I exhaustively searched for any potentially redundant articles and found none. Today, I found List of Major League Baseball players with 500 stolen bases. It wasn't listed in the lists category, it wasn't linked in the logical places like stolen base, and I must have missed it in a search. If you look in Category:Baseball lists, you'll find the naming conventions are varied. I am proposing we use a naming convention of "List of Major League Baseball leaders in career stat", "List of Major League Baseball stat champions", "List of Major League Baseball leaders in single-season stat", and other logical permutations. I also propose we strike all of the articles that list the players over a certain amount of stat like the 600 home run club. Not only is it redundant with the 500 home run club, but it is also redundant with the career leaders list. I think we should also specify the table formating standards and whether we use bold or some other designation for active players. Basar 19:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I want to submit both Ted Radcliffe and Steve Dalkowski to WP:FAR. Do people agree that these articles are so substandard with respect to FA-class citation standards that they reflect poorly on WP:MLB for claiming them as WP:FA articles? -- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 16:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Ted Radcliffe has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 20:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Steve Dalkowski has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 20:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
New York Yankees has been nominated for a good article review. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are delisted. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. -- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone shed light on why we have celebrity fan sections on MLB team pages? This seems more like it would belong in People or Us than on an encyclopedic entry. I have found this on a couple, such as for the San Francisco Giants and the New York Yankees. Entirelybs 19:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I may seem a little scared about the event that it happens, but can you assure me that, in the event that articles like 1921 New York Yankees season are put up for deletion that you will vote keep simply because they are notable and that it's hard work? Thanks Soxrock 11:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Currently, even when there are no suspended players in an organization, the Suspended list category remains under which says "Currently vacant." Too me, this feels a little negative. Why would you just have a Suspended list on the roster page if it doesn't need to be used right now? Could you imagine an official MLB or NFL website having a blank Suspended list "just in case"? I just think it's kind of negative to ALWAYS have one on every roster whether it's being used or not. What does everyone else think?► Chris Nelson 17:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
We should probably create standards for showing career statistics. I think the following code formatting should be chosen:
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center" |- ! [[Year]] !! [[Age]] !! Team !! Lg !! [[Win (baseball)|W]] !! [[Loss (baseball)|L]] !! [[Games played|G]] !! [[Games started|GS]] !! [[Complete game|CG]] !! [[Shutout|SHO]] !! [[Games finished|GF]] !! [[Save (baseball)|SV]] !! [[Innings pitched|IP]] !! [[Hits allowed|H]] !! [[Runs|R]] !! [[Earned run|ER]] !! [[Home runs allowed|HR]] !! [[Base on balls|BB]] !! [[Shutout|SO]] !! [[Hit by pitch|HBP]] !! [[Wild pitch|WP]] !! [[Batters faced by pitcher|BFP]] !! [[Intentional base on balls|IBB]] !! [[Balk|BK]] !! [[Earned run average|ERA]] !! *lgERA !! [[Walks plus hits per inning pitched|WHIP]] |- |2004 ||25 ||[[Texas Rangers (baseball)|TEX]] ||[[American League|AL]] ||3 ||2 ||7 ||7 ||0 ||0 ||0 ||0 ||36.3 ||36 ||21 ||19 ||7 ||10 ||27 ||2 ||1 ||158 ||0 ||0 ||4.71 ||5.05 ||1.266 |- etc . . . |}
which shows:
Year | Age | Team | Lg | W | L | G | GS | CG | SHO | GF | SV | IP | H | R | ER | HR | BB | SO | HBP | WP | BFP | IBB | BK | ERA | *lgERA | WHIP |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
2004 | 25 | TEX | AL | 3 | 2 | 7 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 36.3 | 36 | 21 | 19 | 7 | 10 | 27 | 2 | 1 | 158 | 0 | 0 | 4.71 | 5.05 | 1.266 |
2005 | 26 | TEX | AL | 12 | 7 | 31 | 31 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 164.7 | 162 | 84 | 78 | 19 | 45 | 137 | 7 | 3 | 700 | 2 | 0 | 4.26 | 4.49 | 1.257 |
2006 | 27 | SD | NL | 11 | 5 | 31 | 31 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 179.3 | 134 | 72 | 69 | 28 | 69 | 164 | 6 | 6 | 735 | 4 | 1 | 3.46 | 4.22 | 1.132 |
2007 | 28 | SD | NL | 8 | 3 | 17 | 17 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 103.7 | 74 | 29 | 23 | 3 | 36 | 99 | 4 | 3 | 421 | 0 | 3 | 2.00 | 4.03 | 1.061 |
Career | .667 | 34 | 17 | 86 | 86 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 484.0 | 406 | 206 | 189 | 57 | 160 | 427 | 19 | 13 | 2014 | 6 | 4 | 3.51 | 4.34 | 1.169 |
Statistics accurate through July 9, 2007 [1]
I don't have much of an opinion on which stats should be shown or which ones should be used for hitters, although I'm not too fond of lgERA, I don't think it is all that common, but I know it's useful. I think we should use the standard baseball convention of 8.2 innings meaning 8 and 2/3. I think this is the formatting I've seen on all baseball sites. Although I know many will disagree, but I think we should simply say "in progress" for current year statistics. I don't think it is Wikipedia's nature to provide readers with continually updated statistics as they change daily. I simply do not think it is what Wikipedia is meant for, and I think stat sites are there for that. Not to mention that it would be a huge amount of work to keep all baseball players pages updates on a regular basis. Not even baseballcube updates stats in mid season. Reporting for whole years would make the articles more stable. I don't think we need to link year and age. We should also define when age takes place and make it a note at the bottom of the page; is the beginning of the season standard? Should we link the years to "200X baseball season"? Basar 19:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
So are we deciding to only include career statistics and do so in the format suggested? Have enough people OK'd this to put it in the guidelines? -- Basar ( talk · contribs) 01:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The categorization of players such as Edwin Jackson and Glenn Hubbard (who were born at overseas US military installations) as foreign is incorrect. I suggest that all Americans born overseas as dependents to US military member parents be correctly listed as Americans before anything else. -- John 02:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I attempted to clarify the difference between opponents batting average and hits per nine innings. Editorial review would be appreciated.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
You might be interested in [32]. If this succeeds, as it may, Category:500 home run club, Category:30-30 club, Category:600 home run club, Category:700 home run club etc are very likely to be nominated for deletion next. Johnbod 00:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Johns, you're looking at this bass-ackwards: If this proposal is deleted, keep voting keep on all the others, and try to garner support for them as a whole. Then later, if the others are kept, you can try to get your's restored for consistency. These deletionists are like a virus, and the more deletions they get, the more they keep trying to other things deleted just because the first type was deleted. Don't feed their their fire, or they'll be after something else you like next. Then you'll come back here seeking help again, but no one will go to bat for you because they'll remember what you did. In principle, every article or template is to be judged on its own merits. But in practice, I've had several articles Nominated for deletion just because others of a similar type had been nominated, and the nominators admitted it! These people are the scum of Wikipeduia, because they routinely flout basic courtesies such as WP:AGF. Please, don't stoop to their level. - BillCJ 03:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The debate seems to about whether a category is needed in addition to a list. I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I would point out that while major statistical achievements such as 500 home runs have both categories and lists, I'm not seeing a category for baseball games played, nor even for other obvious baseball milestones such as 3,000 hits. Baseball Bugs 11:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I am the page creator and main editor of Chris Young (pitcher). I think by fluke related to the fact that three active professional athletes named Chris Young exist may have caused some confusion enabled me to be the page creator in his 3rd major league season. I have been happily editing the page essentially by my lonesome until he became an All-Star. Now, everyone is joining in with varied citation standards and image inclusion interests. In the last 24 hours there has been a lot of debate about this article. In fact, yesterday one editor said he prefered a 20KB version to the 61 KB version I was editing. Another editor has proposed a 49 KB version. I have contested some removals and the page is now at 54KB.
As a reader, when a game is notable enough to be specifically mentioned in an article, I prefer that the citations include a link to a box score and/or a recap of the game. It is more convenient for me as a reader to have fingertip access to such notable games. During several WP:FAC debates I have made this point. In the current article, the last two sentences at Chris_Young_(pitcher)#Double_A are examples of where this debate is relevant. I personally feel that for internet era athletes adding internet box score or game recaps to the article via citation is the proper standard of excellence. This standard would affect all other baseball articles and it was suggested that the debate be brought here. Please respond with opinions on the matter.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 15:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
A couple of comments on the problems that I (and other editors) see with this article
In any case, I suggested that we bring the discussion here, becaue Chris Young is after all a baseball player. And, since the standards (especially the box score referencing) should be pretty standard across similar people (i.e. baseball players), it should be discussed here. Just my thoughts, and i'm interested to see what other people think about the discussion. Bjewiki 16:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey, TTT, you said that people agreed that I shouldn't have done the numbers the way I did... but I don't see anybody here who has agreed that I was wrong. You said "other editors are complaining about how the numbers are written now in the baseball talk page discussion." I don't see anybody complaining about that. –– Ksy92003 (talk) 19:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Major League Baseball on the radio was a DYK a few hours ago. ¿SFGiДnts! ¿Complain! ¿Analyze! ¿Review! 20:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
How can I make it better? ¿SFGiДnts! ¿Complain! ¿Analyze! ¿Review! 21:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I've tried to edit the punctuation in the notability section so it's rendered in proper English, but I'm stymied by the fact that one sentence is poorly written.
“ | Outside the US, e.g. Japan, any player playing in Nippon Professional Baseball is considered notable as it is the top professional league of that country. | ” |
This could lead someone with moderate English skills to think that only players for teams located in the US and Japan (and nowhere else) are notable. I don't mind changing bad or confusing punctuation, but substantive changes should be discussed, so: If your intent is to allow articles on professional baseball players from other countries, I suggest you rewrite that part of the section to say:
“ | Any player that plays in the top professional league in his country is notable. This includes Major League Baseball in North America and Nippon Professional Baseball in Japan, among others. Minor league players in North America are not considered notable. | ” |
That way you avoid mistaken accusations of bias and your guideline is clearer. -- Charlene 03:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)