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Old discussion available at Wikipedia talk:Proposed wheel warring policy/Archive
The previous version of the project page (with multiple proposals)
The difficulty that we have to address is the definition of what wheel warring is. We all know it when we see it of course. I'm worried that by trying to nail down a definition we will cause problems. I have undone the actions of other admins on quite a few occasions but I have never wheel warred.Consider this- Admin A blocks a user. The user is on a shared network so the block causes collateral damage. Admin B unblocks the user after an email from a innocent user. B for some reason forgets to tell A. The next day A notices vandalism coming from that user and blocks him again. According to some of the definitions we are considering A is guilty of wheel warring! Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 16:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Just a note for anyone paying attention should any of these ideas be implemented: please update the WP:1WW shortcut to point to wherever this is ultimately enacted at (if it is). — Locke Cole • t • c 04:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
As of 04:39, 6 April 2006 (UTC), the last edit to 1WW is nearly 2 weeks old. There are now 5 related proposals under discussion. I suggest that we move forward; I feel that multiple proposals may make it difficult to build consensus behind any one.
At this time, the straw poll stands at:
proposal # | author | support | oppose |
---|---|---|---|
1 | Philwelch | 4 | 14 |
2 | Carnildo | 3 | 3 |
3 | Theresa | 6 | 5 |
4 | John Reid | 20 | 7 |
5 | Locke Cole | 10 | 6 |
Clearly, none of us has got it quite right; but I think we are all tending toward a certain point. I'd like to ask consent to archive the existing page as it stands now; and attempt a refactor that includes the most popular and accepted points of all 5 proposals. I'd also like to incorporate useful portions of Wikipedia:Wheel war.
From that point on, while we may the proposal on its page, let's not fork it again. We can discuss it on talk. John Reid 04:39, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
There's another similar proposal, started in March, at WP:0RR. It's somewhat more detailed than the proposals on this page, and somewhat stricter than Locke Cole's proposal. (My interpretation of John Reid's proposal would be compatible with the 0RR one, but it appears John himself may disagree.) It's been fairly stable for over a month now. It hasn't been put to a poll, but there seems to be a rough consensus on the talk page in favor of the latest versions.
Should we put it to a poll and see how it fares compared to the alternatives listed above? Or is there sufficient consensus to implement it based on discussion alone (since, as we all know, voting is evil)? — Ilmari Karonen ( talk) 11:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh boy, another fork! Apparently some folks got started at Wikipedia:Admin zero-revert rule unaware that WP:1WW has been cooking since early February. I'm going to merge it into this discussion, since the substance is extremely similar. John Reid 18:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
This discussion originally took place at Wikipedia talk:Admin zero-revert rule.
So far this proposal sounds very good. Matthew Brown (Morven) ( T: C) 07:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
It's pretty much what already do (admitedly in my case with the added view that whoever pulled my descission is responcible for any problems that arise as a result). The only posible issue is that I'd like a garentee that arbcom would look into every case of admins pulling blocks placed on themselves other than mistakes due to the autoblocker. Geni 12:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
A reasonably good proposal in priciple, although I think some modifications (i.e. more exceptions) might be in order:
I would argue that in scenario 1 and 3, the undoing of the other administrator is not a wheel war, the situation has changed, and the admins in question may be the best of friends and endorse eachothers actions wholeheartedly here. In scenario 2, admin B's decision is "out of process", and the rules mandate that a disagreement be taken up with Admin A, the Admins' noticeboard or DRV. Also, an interesting counterpart to Scenario 2 is
Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that all above scenarios can be resolved by administrators on the ground working together. Scenarios 1 and 3 in particular suggest an administrator who has decided that he owns an article (albeit 3 is a little artificial because in practice administrators do not unprotect in the presence of very recent vandalism) Scenario 2 and its converse, a keep debate reclosed as a delete, is a classic case. There will be gaming in this area and it should be treated firmly. -- Tony Sidaway 18:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
In general, I do agree with Sjakkalle's original claim above that there are situations where admin actions may be (seemingly) undone and redone, possibly even several times, without there actually being a wheel war going on. I'd hope that these would be covered by common sense, and in any case they generally can be avoided by asking for help, but I wouldn't be opposed to a note stating something like "This policy is not intended to apply to cases where the situation has clearly and significantly changed between the undoing and the redoing of the admin action in question, especially where the stated reason for undoing the action no longer applies. For example, if an article unprotected after a vandalism spree is over, and the vandalism later begins anew, the same admin who originally protected the article may protect it again.". — Ilmari Karonen ( talk) 21:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Should this apply to rollback? Haukur 12:41, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
No, it should not apply to rollback. That's what we have the 3RR for. This muddies the waters between admin actions and regular editing actions. Any editor can manually accomplish a rollback, and there are many scripts, available to all, that emulate the rollback feature. android 79 14:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I've added rollback explicitly for now because rollbacks contain no proper edit summary (I would argue that they should, but that's a technical matter). If an administrator reverts a rollback, it would be a good idea if at least that revert contained an edit summary, if only so that those watching Recent changes will havea clue as to what's going on. -- Tony Sidaway 18:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't agree that rollback should be added. Rollback is an editing function; anyone can rollback, it's just that it's slightly more convenient for admins (1 click instead of 3). Edit-wars are already covered under existing policies, and we should avoid instruction creep. This policy should deal with purely administrative actions, i.e., actions that can only be carried out by those with admin abilities. Jayjg (talk) 23:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Rollback should not be included. Rollback is only to be used against vandalism in any case, using it in any other context is an abuse of admin power anyway. Rich Farmbrough 23:05 19 April 2006 (UTC).
According to the proposal, the enforcement will be temporary or even permanent desysopping. Is it a problem that we have very few people capable of imposing such sanctions? Isn't it easier to treat wheel-warring the same way as we treat edit-warring, with short blocks of up to 24 hours? Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:35, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
This rule will not have teeth unless it carries a desysopping penalty. We should aim at making it a rule that is so universally followed that no administrator would even think of using his sysop power to perform a reversal. Regaining of sysop rights after an offense should always be subject to approval by RFA. -- Tony Sidaway 18:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest changing "Do not repeat any reversed administrative action within 24 hours. (Or a Steward may remove your administrative privileges.)" to "....(Or a Steward will remove your administrative privilages.)". Comments? -- Rebroad 17:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
This may be fine as a general guideline, but if it becomes a firm rule, the consequences will likely be bad. This policy seems to be an invitation to trolls and vandals to game the system to get their way and succeed in attacking good admins. If a vandal/troll who gets blocked (or has an article deleted etc.) is able to convince another admin to reverse the action, it is now the other admins (who may realize that the undoing admin was played), who are under the gun, primed to lose their adminship if they reestablish a proper action. So perhaps no one will want to risk immediate desysopping, and the vandal/troll gets to wreck havoc upon Wikipedia. We are trying too hard to make rules fit dynamic situations. There are too many instances that the rule being applied could be worse than not applying it. Instead, we should just insist that there be discussion, with the other admin involved or with the community on the noticeboard, and real humans can make consensus decisions based on each situation. NoSeptember talk 18:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
correct for. This policy gives individual admin too much power.
-- Masssiveego 23:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The issue I see with the 0RR as drafted is that it actually gives *more* power to crusaders, and doesn't actually stop very common kinds of wheel wars.
Here's what I mean: One admin protects a page, or blocks and editor, or whatever. Then a second admin comes along and undoes all of his actions. The second admin has *already* started the wheel-war, and, in fact, *won* the wheel war, because the first admin cannot revert the second admin.
Here's another common scenario; Admin A blocks an editor (or deletes a userbox). Admin B comes along and unblocks/undeletes. Admin C reblocks/redeletes. Admin D unblocks/undeletes again, etc. The wheel war is in full force, yet no-one has violated the 0RR as proposed.
Unlikely? Perhaps, but that is pretty much exactly what has happened recently in a number of recent blocking cases and various userbox wars.
This proposed policy is an attempt to stop admins from being disrespectful to other admins, and to stop wheel-warring; yet, as currently formulated, it does neither. A real 0RR would insist that an admin cannot undo the administrative actions of another admin within a 24 hour timeframe. Full stop (of course, inserting all the various caveats regarding resonable acts, emergencies, endangering, etc.). Jayjg (talk) 23:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The problematic issue with this proposal is the 24 hour limit. The static limit is exactly what allows someone to game to system as discussed in the previous sections above. Somehow, the static limit needs to be removed. — Dzonatas 16:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
This much like the 3rr is flawed in that one of the 2 sides in the (wheel/edit) "war" is given extra power. In this case the 2nd administrator's (the reverser) is given absolute power over the other administrator's decision. Example, an admin unblocks a user that was blocked a few days ago as a suspected sockpuppet because there was no concrete evidence for the original block, now a 2nd admin re-blocks the user because he feels the circumstancial evidence was enough and then logs off for the night, then an admin finally runs checkuser(which is backed up so a pre-emptive block is common) and clears the user of the accusation, however he cannot unblock the user for another 20 hrs since the 2nd admin's block is protected and is forced to let the user sit out his unfair block while knowing that he was cleared.
The problem with this policy is that it is an attempt to make a blanket cure for an issue that needs to be adressed on a case by case basis. Wheel warring is already a big no-no people should be punished for wheel warring if the situation presents itself, there is no need for another policy that will eventually be gamed. Seraphim 20:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
It stirkes me that a) we should try and get a policy to sort the situation of bad administrators as opposed to trying to limit their power. We should sort out the root of the cause no the effects of the problem. That said, I think the proposal is a good idea, but like I said, I think that Admins should have a much more stringent oversight. -- Wisd e n17 19:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
There are a number of similar proposals at WP:1WW. I'm not sure how we ended up with two redundant proposal pages, but somehow we did. As there's been a proposal to ratify some version of the 1WW proposal, and as this proposal seems to be fairly stable and enjoy some degree of consensus support, I've suggested on the "other" talk page that both proposals be used as basis for the final policy. Please comment there. — Ilmari Karonen ( talk) 12:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the term "wheel war" because I believe it is unclear and misapplied at Wikipedia, and I am wholly unconvinced that having a policy regarding "wheel warring" will accomplish anything useful. Admins are supposed to discuss things, be civil, and respect our way of doing things, and any admins that don't shouldn't remain admins. I don't think it's possible to violate any of proposed policies (at least, the ones that have meaningful support) while still discussing things, remaining civil, and respecting our way of doing things. Instruction creep is bad, and so are rules that can be gamed. I believe that the perceived mandate for this stems from conflating a number of unrelated cases:
I would suggest that the core issues of: Jimbo's authority and role in the project, how admins of dubious distinction should be dealt with, and the resolution of the certain other policy matters listed above would do far more to reduce conflict and further our goals than any of these "wheel warring" policies. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
As of 03:44 Saturday, 2006 Apr 22, the straw poll stands at:
proposal # | author | support | oppose | support % |
---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Philwelch | 4 | 16 | 20% |
2 | Carnildo | 3 | 5 | 38% |
3 | Theresa | 6 | 7 | 46% |
4 | John Reid | 24 | 9 | 73% |
5 | Locke Cole | 11 | 7 | 61% |
6 | Kelly Martin | 3 | 3 | 50% |
7 | Kelly Martin | 1 | 3 | 25% |
It's my belief that most of us are tending toward the same or a similar restriction on wheel warring. I suggest that a single, improved version may fare better on its way to policy. I do not suggest in any way that the plurality for version #4 constitutes a mandate for my point of view; rather, I only ask that I be allowed to refactor the existing, competing seven proposals into a single draft. This refactor will be open to editing immediately by any editor. I will ask editors to refrain from supporting or opposing the new draft for the time being; instead, to the proposal to reflect their specific concerns. I believe the true consensus policy will then emerge, in true wiki fashion. After all, we're not so far apart. John Reid 03:58, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
As the one who started this process, I agree that some refactoring would be useful, although along slightly different lines. I'll show you what I mean this weekend, hopefully. — Phil Welch ( t) ( c) 05:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
How about doing this on a separate page? That would avoid controversy with people who still want to discuss the individual proposals listed on this one.-- Eloquence * 13:13, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I try not to get too involved in this sort of thing (not being an administrator, it doesn't really affect me anyway, at least not at the moment), but to be honest, while I favour John Reid's proposal over the others, I don't have any real objections to any of them. I would certainly be happy with any 'final draft' of the proposal that was roughly along the lines of what has been suggested so far – Gurch 15:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
After the refectoring, the "1WW" mnemonic doesn't seem very logical any more, given that the emphasis is not on strict numeric limits any more. I've thus replaced it with " NWW", and have also created the redirects Wikipedia:No wheel wars and Wikipedia:No wheel warring, one of which I'd propose as the final name for this policy. — Ilmari Karonen ( talk) 11:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Minor note, I've modified the table at the top to reflect support percentages (feel free to correct anything I got wrong). I need to read over some of the discussion before jumping back in, but hopefully something will come of this. =) — Locke Cole • t • c 03:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I've just added the following notice to my user and talk pages:
This is not meant to be a criticism of this proposed policy, which I have myself helped draft and generally support, or an attempt to dilute or circumvent it. I am merely choosing to personally assume good faith on behalf of other admins and to expressly announce a presumption of amity as described in the proposed policy.
It should, of course, go without saying that I will personally follow whatever policy is enacted, without assuming that anyone else will necessarily grant such permission to me as I have done above, and that I will in any case do my best to exercise caution in my admin actions, whether or not they may consitute a revert. — Ilmari Karonen ( talk) 20:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the "in the knowledge that another admin opposes it," part. I think Jimbo is spot on at User:Jimbo_Wales/Statement_of_principles (principle 2), where he says "there must be no hierarchy or structure which gets in the way of this openness to newcomers". Admins have the technical ability to do things others can't (by virtue of belonging to the sysop group), solely because it would be a security risk to give those abilities to all users.
Perhaps the example which most clearly demonstrates how the policy poses a problem is:
Contrast this with:
A strict reading of the policy makes the first case a violation but the second case not. This means that admin B is given a higher status (as opposed to technical access level) than user C. This applies even if user C is a much better contributor to Wikipedia than admin B. A1kmm 04:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
They contradict. "An admin action" would seem to mean the act, not the act only by that admin. If A blocks X and B unblocks X then C reblocks X, C knows that B objects to the block and yet he blocks anyways and would be in violation. In the examples, he is not. If the examples are correct it should probably say "...repeat any of their admin actions..." or something of the like (which still leaves the absurb posibility of 900 total blocks and unblocks without a violation, but I'm sure people know that). Kotepho 02:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
For the last 45 days or so, I've not been very active, so I don't know if this has been discussed before. Phil Welch has blocked a user and this was undone by other admins after a discussion on WP:AN just around 10-15 minutes. I believe that undoing an admin action, specifically something like removing a block, should not be considered as wheelwarring if the original block had to do something with the interaction that the admin has with the user. Thanks. -- Gurubrahma 11:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I rm except with community consensus from the policy text. (This was inserted with edit sum Modify summary to match text.) I'm fairly unhappy about it -- I believe in leaving new policy open to editing in general and I don't like to seem the sole defender of my own draft. Please allow me to discuss this edit.
First, the edit sum itself. The policy is deliberately worded on one line. That's not a summary of the policy: that's the text. Everything else on the page interprets or illuminates this; nothing else has the same force as the text. Note the refactored prior discussions under Commentary: some contradict one another but they all illuminate our joint state of mind as we refine this policy. None have the force of policy itself. I realize that other policies are extremely wordy; lately the fashion has been to head some policies with a summary titled "...in a nutshell". This is not the case here -- and indeed, I think these policies are not particularly well worded. The more words a law contains, the more crevices left to shelter lawyers.
Community consensus is, of course, our highest organizational principle. It trumps all other policies at all times. But it is rather risky to make explicit exceptions to lesser policies. It is all too easy for a malefactor to claim But I had community consensus behind my actions! Consensus is just one of those things, like good music: All know it when they see it but everyone has a different opinion of what it is.
I suggest that the desire to leave loopholes like this stems from the all-too-prevalent feeling that if I don't fix this, it won't get fixed. Unfortunately this is exactly the good intention that leads to bitter wheel wars.
I do think this clause is a pretty big risk -- but if the community insists on it, I'll not demand its removal. I'm just me. John Reid 06:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
This is one of the worst recipes for wikilawyering I've seen, because it's so complex. I've removed the policy summary because it's not clear what it even means, and you seem to be trying to come up with a novel definition of wheel war, whereby the admin who starts is may do so, but any subsequent admin is only allowed to undo once? Is that it?
It's particularly important that the wording be simple and clear (and fair) if people might be penalized. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
The temptation to move this to Proposed wheel warring policy ON WHEELS!!! is so strong! -- Saaber 07:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Slim Virgin deleted the entire policy (!) as shown above with edit sum I strongly disagree with that summary; see talk. I really think I've done enough here and it's somebody else's turn -- but I'd suggest that we either reinsert the policy statement into the policy page or insert a new policy statement.
As I've said before, the boxed text is intended to be the policy, not a summary of that policy. Only this text is intended to have the force of policy; all else is explanation and commentary, with lesser force. Without any actual policy statement, this page now looks to me like a wheel without an axle upon which to turn. John Reid 22:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I don't think so. The discussions that led up to this point were lively and drew wide participation. This is a wiki and details are always subject to change but I see broad support. Thanks for helping; I've boxed the policy statement again and fixed a minor typo. John Reid 01:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The scope of an admin's action is a critical factor in our evaluation of a charge of wheel warring. Factors in aggravation or mitigation may include, but are not limited to:
The context of an admins action may influence the finding of wheel warring. Few defenses are able to succeed. Possible defenses include:
On a personal note, I'd like to thank the many editors who contributed to this proposal. This was not created overnight nor was it the pet project of one or two editors. Much was written, much was debated, much was hacked away, and much rewritten. The people who contributed here did not all agree on every point but in the end we all managed to hammer out something we can live with.
I believe an example has been set here that we would do well to follow in our dealings with other troublesome issues. John Reid 03:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I've moved this page to "Wheel wars". Having a page with "policy" in the title when it's a {{ guideline}}, not a {{ policy}}, is somewhat absurd. -- Sam Blanning (talk) 14:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh dear, turns out we've already got a page called Wikipedia:Wheel war, so that's too confusing. I'll move to Wikipedia:Wheel war guideline... and I just had to realise that only when I was finished doing the double redirects >_< -- Sam Blanning (talk) 14:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
This policy-to-be enjoys broad support. It doesn't answer every need nor does it meet everyone's every expectation. Your concern, CBD, was aired at length during the process that led up to the current version. It's legitimate.
I think if you read both "front" and talk sides to this page -- and especially if you review history of both -- you'll see the rationale for permitting the slow-motion, one-shot-per-admin WW. That such a thing is a WW, there is no doubt; that it is highly discouraged, also no doubt. Perhaps ArbCom will even sanction somebody for participating in such a thing; I rather hope the effect of this policy will be to moderate such penalties. That's really neither here nor there. WP:WHEEL has a much looser definition of WW and that's a good thing. Admins should avoid anything that even looks like WW but it's hard to draw a bright line there; this is the function of the words at WHEEL. Absent the bright line, reasonable men might argue on either side when some admin is accused of WW. This page has a very strict definition that everybody can agree on. You may well be WW before you cross this line; you certainly are, once over it.
The trouble with forbidding the slo-mo WW is when somebody asks the question, When is it a WW? If you can answer this question quickly and confidently without using loaded terms like "vandalism" and "good faith", then you are an involved party to a potential WW.
Let's say -- in neutral terms -- that I, Zeus, from my remote and entirely neutral mountaintop observe an editor blocked by Admin A. Is that a WW? No. The disagreement, whatever it is, is between an admin and a non-admin; it's not a WW. Okay, well, the block is lifted by Admin B. Is that a WW? Probably not. It may not even be a difference of opinion, depending on the length of the block, the time elapsed, and whether the blocked editor made a good plea for unblock. Perhaps Admin A would have been happy to lift the block if he'd seen the plea but he's out to lunch. Now, what if Admin A talks to Admin B and restores the block with B's agreement? That's not a WW, is it? No. B no longer opposes. If A fails to talk with B that may still not be a WW; perhaps circumstances have changed. Perhaps the editor in question made a fool of B in the meantime, giving the lie to his apparently good plea but now B is out to lunch. Admin A reblocks and B is content; it's not a WW.
On the other hand, perhaps A and B are known enemies. Let's say they're involved in a prior edit war over Chile or Chili; they have, of course, steered close to 3RR but wisely never overstepped that bound. Coldly civil, contentious words have been exchanged on talk. Now A blocks an editor who gets into the edit war on B's side. B unblocks. WW? Probably so but how do you prove it? Where do you draw the line? A and B aren't blood brothers? A and B have both edited the same article? They have occasionally left messages on each other's talk? If they've left rude messages we don't need to look for a WW; we should sanction them immediately for violation of WP:CIVIL. If not, it's because such messages are polite enough -- therefore, how can you say that either A or B did not act in good faith? The standard is plain and easy to apply: If A knows that B opposes and reblocks, it's a WW. Note that the "reasonable man" principle of common law applies here; Admin A cannot claim ignorance if a good showing can be made that a reasonable admin should have known that B opposed.
Well, why isn't B WW if he knows that A opposes the unblock? Well, we have explicit language for this, too: Do not repeat ... Since B has never yet acted, his action -- however in-your-face it may be -- cannot, when it comes, be WW. It may be hostile, uncivil, unwise, or a clear breach of community trust. But these are all subjective evaluations and don't lend themselves to bright-line distinctions. We here on this page permit B to act once. This gets us out of the deadly trap of endorsing whoever shoots first. Otherwise, A could do any damn thing, announce loudly that he opposed any counteraction, and "own" the article or user until doomsday.
So, if Admin A is wrong to reblock knowing B is in opposition, why do we permit C to do the same thing? Well, first of all, perhaps we don't. Perhaps we sanction C for being hostile, uncivil, unwise, or somehow violating his trust. But if he can make some plausible argument that A is right and B is wrong, then he is entitled to act -- whether you or I agree. By "entitled" I only mean to say that he has not violated 0WW. Who knows what else he's done. It should never be the purpose of a new policy to restate all the other policies that might apply to a given situation. Avoiding sanction under 0WW does not guarantee C a free pass under any other policy including WHEEL. 0WW does raise the bar slightly for the person who wishes to attack C; it's just not enough to yell "He reverted/reblocked/reprotected -- he's WW". So you see, by giving C his one shot, we avoid the second deadly trap of endorsing whoever shoots second.
In similar vein, we permit D to reunblock -- but not B. We avoid endorsing whoever shot first and whoever shot the third time, confirming the first guy. After all, who is "right"? We can't say just by examining the block log. Admin A may have chosen wisely and B may have done so; both are probably a little right and both probably a good bit in the wrong. But we avoid endorsing either party as we would if we attempted to call a halt to the slo-mo WW. If we did yell stop at some point, we would freeze the situation in favor of one side or the other -- and at any point far from the end, a fanatic is in charge of each side. We have cut short some unpleasantness and disruption but paid the price by setting a biased point of view in stone.
Instead, the WW plays itself out. Yes, 20 admins on each side may hit the ball one time each and everybody watches the ball go back and forth. I'll bet that in the course of the slo-WW most of the participants will have violated a small handful of other policies -- and we get to sanction every one of them for that -- and we should. If by some small miracle, all 40 admins manage to stagger through the process without (a) ad hominem attack, (b) failure to assume good faith, (c) failure to discuss contentious changes on talk, (d), (e), (f), and (g), well then, what harm has been done? Not much -- certainly not as much as if the same crew were to squabble over which side crossed the line first. The latter scenario boots the issue up one notch on the metawar ladder: always an evil thing.
Sooner or later, one side or the other will have exhausted all those willing to make complete jackasses of themselves and risk sanctions due to violations of (a) through (z) other policies -- everyone completely unwilling to compromise anyway, even if you chained them to the table. Now moderates -- still holding strong opinions but not fanatics -- come in and do their bit -- but with a smidgen of real compromise. The trick is that we have got all the fanatics away from the table. With them gone, the moderates who remain will work something out; in the very worst case, the last man standing will decide. And it will still be over and every admin will have had a whack at the ball.
I guarantee to any reader that if you do not see the justice in this, it is because you are thinking of a particular WW, one in which you hold an opinion as to which side was "right". You want the 0WW policy to somehow be written so that, if it had been in effect back then, "your" side would have been granted the victory. Instead, 0WW takes the attitude that all WW is wrong but there is no way to call an arbitrary end to a slo-mo war without taking sides. The last thing we want to do is create a system for somebody to game; so we never take a side in a WW. By insisting that every editor has one shot only, we ensure its swiftest possible neutral end. John Reid 00:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Old discussion available at Wikipedia talk:Proposed wheel warring policy/Archive
The previous version of the project page (with multiple proposals)
The difficulty that we have to address is the definition of what wheel warring is. We all know it when we see it of course. I'm worried that by trying to nail down a definition we will cause problems. I have undone the actions of other admins on quite a few occasions but I have never wheel warred.Consider this- Admin A blocks a user. The user is on a shared network so the block causes collateral damage. Admin B unblocks the user after an email from a innocent user. B for some reason forgets to tell A. The next day A notices vandalism coming from that user and blocks him again. According to some of the definitions we are considering A is guilty of wheel warring! Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 16:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Just a note for anyone paying attention should any of these ideas be implemented: please update the WP:1WW shortcut to point to wherever this is ultimately enacted at (if it is). — Locke Cole • t • c 04:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
As of 04:39, 6 April 2006 (UTC), the last edit to 1WW is nearly 2 weeks old. There are now 5 related proposals under discussion. I suggest that we move forward; I feel that multiple proposals may make it difficult to build consensus behind any one.
At this time, the straw poll stands at:
proposal # | author | support | oppose |
---|---|---|---|
1 | Philwelch | 4 | 14 |
2 | Carnildo | 3 | 3 |
3 | Theresa | 6 | 5 |
4 | John Reid | 20 | 7 |
5 | Locke Cole | 10 | 6 |
Clearly, none of us has got it quite right; but I think we are all tending toward a certain point. I'd like to ask consent to archive the existing page as it stands now; and attempt a refactor that includes the most popular and accepted points of all 5 proposals. I'd also like to incorporate useful portions of Wikipedia:Wheel war.
From that point on, while we may the proposal on its page, let's not fork it again. We can discuss it on talk. John Reid 04:39, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
There's another similar proposal, started in March, at WP:0RR. It's somewhat more detailed than the proposals on this page, and somewhat stricter than Locke Cole's proposal. (My interpretation of John Reid's proposal would be compatible with the 0RR one, but it appears John himself may disagree.) It's been fairly stable for over a month now. It hasn't been put to a poll, but there seems to be a rough consensus on the talk page in favor of the latest versions.
Should we put it to a poll and see how it fares compared to the alternatives listed above? Or is there sufficient consensus to implement it based on discussion alone (since, as we all know, voting is evil)? — Ilmari Karonen ( talk) 11:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh boy, another fork! Apparently some folks got started at Wikipedia:Admin zero-revert rule unaware that WP:1WW has been cooking since early February. I'm going to merge it into this discussion, since the substance is extremely similar. John Reid 18:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
This discussion originally took place at Wikipedia talk:Admin zero-revert rule.
So far this proposal sounds very good. Matthew Brown (Morven) ( T: C) 07:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
It's pretty much what already do (admitedly in my case with the added view that whoever pulled my descission is responcible for any problems that arise as a result). The only posible issue is that I'd like a garentee that arbcom would look into every case of admins pulling blocks placed on themselves other than mistakes due to the autoblocker. Geni 12:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
A reasonably good proposal in priciple, although I think some modifications (i.e. more exceptions) might be in order:
I would argue that in scenario 1 and 3, the undoing of the other administrator is not a wheel war, the situation has changed, and the admins in question may be the best of friends and endorse eachothers actions wholeheartedly here. In scenario 2, admin B's decision is "out of process", and the rules mandate that a disagreement be taken up with Admin A, the Admins' noticeboard or DRV. Also, an interesting counterpart to Scenario 2 is
Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that all above scenarios can be resolved by administrators on the ground working together. Scenarios 1 and 3 in particular suggest an administrator who has decided that he owns an article (albeit 3 is a little artificial because in practice administrators do not unprotect in the presence of very recent vandalism) Scenario 2 and its converse, a keep debate reclosed as a delete, is a classic case. There will be gaming in this area and it should be treated firmly. -- Tony Sidaway 18:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
In general, I do agree with Sjakkalle's original claim above that there are situations where admin actions may be (seemingly) undone and redone, possibly even several times, without there actually being a wheel war going on. I'd hope that these would be covered by common sense, and in any case they generally can be avoided by asking for help, but I wouldn't be opposed to a note stating something like "This policy is not intended to apply to cases where the situation has clearly and significantly changed between the undoing and the redoing of the admin action in question, especially where the stated reason for undoing the action no longer applies. For example, if an article unprotected after a vandalism spree is over, and the vandalism later begins anew, the same admin who originally protected the article may protect it again.". — Ilmari Karonen ( talk) 21:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Should this apply to rollback? Haukur 12:41, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
No, it should not apply to rollback. That's what we have the 3RR for. This muddies the waters between admin actions and regular editing actions. Any editor can manually accomplish a rollback, and there are many scripts, available to all, that emulate the rollback feature. android 79 14:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I've added rollback explicitly for now because rollbacks contain no proper edit summary (I would argue that they should, but that's a technical matter). If an administrator reverts a rollback, it would be a good idea if at least that revert contained an edit summary, if only so that those watching Recent changes will havea clue as to what's going on. -- Tony Sidaway 18:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't agree that rollback should be added. Rollback is an editing function; anyone can rollback, it's just that it's slightly more convenient for admins (1 click instead of 3). Edit-wars are already covered under existing policies, and we should avoid instruction creep. This policy should deal with purely administrative actions, i.e., actions that can only be carried out by those with admin abilities. Jayjg (talk) 23:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Rollback should not be included. Rollback is only to be used against vandalism in any case, using it in any other context is an abuse of admin power anyway. Rich Farmbrough 23:05 19 April 2006 (UTC).
According to the proposal, the enforcement will be temporary or even permanent desysopping. Is it a problem that we have very few people capable of imposing such sanctions? Isn't it easier to treat wheel-warring the same way as we treat edit-warring, with short blocks of up to 24 hours? Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:35, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
This rule will not have teeth unless it carries a desysopping penalty. We should aim at making it a rule that is so universally followed that no administrator would even think of using his sysop power to perform a reversal. Regaining of sysop rights after an offense should always be subject to approval by RFA. -- Tony Sidaway 18:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest changing "Do not repeat any reversed administrative action within 24 hours. (Or a Steward may remove your administrative privileges.)" to "....(Or a Steward will remove your administrative privilages.)". Comments? -- Rebroad 17:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
This may be fine as a general guideline, but if it becomes a firm rule, the consequences will likely be bad. This policy seems to be an invitation to trolls and vandals to game the system to get their way and succeed in attacking good admins. If a vandal/troll who gets blocked (or has an article deleted etc.) is able to convince another admin to reverse the action, it is now the other admins (who may realize that the undoing admin was played), who are under the gun, primed to lose their adminship if they reestablish a proper action. So perhaps no one will want to risk immediate desysopping, and the vandal/troll gets to wreck havoc upon Wikipedia. We are trying too hard to make rules fit dynamic situations. There are too many instances that the rule being applied could be worse than not applying it. Instead, we should just insist that there be discussion, with the other admin involved or with the community on the noticeboard, and real humans can make consensus decisions based on each situation. NoSeptember talk 18:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
correct for. This policy gives individual admin too much power.
-- Masssiveego 23:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The issue I see with the 0RR as drafted is that it actually gives *more* power to crusaders, and doesn't actually stop very common kinds of wheel wars.
Here's what I mean: One admin protects a page, or blocks and editor, or whatever. Then a second admin comes along and undoes all of his actions. The second admin has *already* started the wheel-war, and, in fact, *won* the wheel war, because the first admin cannot revert the second admin.
Here's another common scenario; Admin A blocks an editor (or deletes a userbox). Admin B comes along and unblocks/undeletes. Admin C reblocks/redeletes. Admin D unblocks/undeletes again, etc. The wheel war is in full force, yet no-one has violated the 0RR as proposed.
Unlikely? Perhaps, but that is pretty much exactly what has happened recently in a number of recent blocking cases and various userbox wars.
This proposed policy is an attempt to stop admins from being disrespectful to other admins, and to stop wheel-warring; yet, as currently formulated, it does neither. A real 0RR would insist that an admin cannot undo the administrative actions of another admin within a 24 hour timeframe. Full stop (of course, inserting all the various caveats regarding resonable acts, emergencies, endangering, etc.). Jayjg (talk) 23:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The problematic issue with this proposal is the 24 hour limit. The static limit is exactly what allows someone to game to system as discussed in the previous sections above. Somehow, the static limit needs to be removed. — Dzonatas 16:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
This much like the 3rr is flawed in that one of the 2 sides in the (wheel/edit) "war" is given extra power. In this case the 2nd administrator's (the reverser) is given absolute power over the other administrator's decision. Example, an admin unblocks a user that was blocked a few days ago as a suspected sockpuppet because there was no concrete evidence for the original block, now a 2nd admin re-blocks the user because he feels the circumstancial evidence was enough and then logs off for the night, then an admin finally runs checkuser(which is backed up so a pre-emptive block is common) and clears the user of the accusation, however he cannot unblock the user for another 20 hrs since the 2nd admin's block is protected and is forced to let the user sit out his unfair block while knowing that he was cleared.
The problem with this policy is that it is an attempt to make a blanket cure for an issue that needs to be adressed on a case by case basis. Wheel warring is already a big no-no people should be punished for wheel warring if the situation presents itself, there is no need for another policy that will eventually be gamed. Seraphim 20:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
It stirkes me that a) we should try and get a policy to sort the situation of bad administrators as opposed to trying to limit their power. We should sort out the root of the cause no the effects of the problem. That said, I think the proposal is a good idea, but like I said, I think that Admins should have a much more stringent oversight. -- Wisd e n17 19:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
There are a number of similar proposals at WP:1WW. I'm not sure how we ended up with two redundant proposal pages, but somehow we did. As there's been a proposal to ratify some version of the 1WW proposal, and as this proposal seems to be fairly stable and enjoy some degree of consensus support, I've suggested on the "other" talk page that both proposals be used as basis for the final policy. Please comment there. — Ilmari Karonen ( talk) 12:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the term "wheel war" because I believe it is unclear and misapplied at Wikipedia, and I am wholly unconvinced that having a policy regarding "wheel warring" will accomplish anything useful. Admins are supposed to discuss things, be civil, and respect our way of doing things, and any admins that don't shouldn't remain admins. I don't think it's possible to violate any of proposed policies (at least, the ones that have meaningful support) while still discussing things, remaining civil, and respecting our way of doing things. Instruction creep is bad, and so are rules that can be gamed. I believe that the perceived mandate for this stems from conflating a number of unrelated cases:
I would suggest that the core issues of: Jimbo's authority and role in the project, how admins of dubious distinction should be dealt with, and the resolution of the certain other policy matters listed above would do far more to reduce conflict and further our goals than any of these "wheel warring" policies. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
As of 03:44 Saturday, 2006 Apr 22, the straw poll stands at:
proposal # | author | support | oppose | support % |
---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Philwelch | 4 | 16 | 20% |
2 | Carnildo | 3 | 5 | 38% |
3 | Theresa | 6 | 7 | 46% |
4 | John Reid | 24 | 9 | 73% |
5 | Locke Cole | 11 | 7 | 61% |
6 | Kelly Martin | 3 | 3 | 50% |
7 | Kelly Martin | 1 | 3 | 25% |
It's my belief that most of us are tending toward the same or a similar restriction on wheel warring. I suggest that a single, improved version may fare better on its way to policy. I do not suggest in any way that the plurality for version #4 constitutes a mandate for my point of view; rather, I only ask that I be allowed to refactor the existing, competing seven proposals into a single draft. This refactor will be open to editing immediately by any editor. I will ask editors to refrain from supporting or opposing the new draft for the time being; instead, to the proposal to reflect their specific concerns. I believe the true consensus policy will then emerge, in true wiki fashion. After all, we're not so far apart. John Reid 03:58, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
As the one who started this process, I agree that some refactoring would be useful, although along slightly different lines. I'll show you what I mean this weekend, hopefully. — Phil Welch ( t) ( c) 05:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
How about doing this on a separate page? That would avoid controversy with people who still want to discuss the individual proposals listed on this one.-- Eloquence * 13:13, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I try not to get too involved in this sort of thing (not being an administrator, it doesn't really affect me anyway, at least not at the moment), but to be honest, while I favour John Reid's proposal over the others, I don't have any real objections to any of them. I would certainly be happy with any 'final draft' of the proposal that was roughly along the lines of what has been suggested so far – Gurch 15:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
After the refectoring, the "1WW" mnemonic doesn't seem very logical any more, given that the emphasis is not on strict numeric limits any more. I've thus replaced it with " NWW", and have also created the redirects Wikipedia:No wheel wars and Wikipedia:No wheel warring, one of which I'd propose as the final name for this policy. — Ilmari Karonen ( talk) 11:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Minor note, I've modified the table at the top to reflect support percentages (feel free to correct anything I got wrong). I need to read over some of the discussion before jumping back in, but hopefully something will come of this. =) — Locke Cole • t • c 03:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I've just added the following notice to my user and talk pages:
This is not meant to be a criticism of this proposed policy, which I have myself helped draft and generally support, or an attempt to dilute or circumvent it. I am merely choosing to personally assume good faith on behalf of other admins and to expressly announce a presumption of amity as described in the proposed policy.
It should, of course, go without saying that I will personally follow whatever policy is enacted, without assuming that anyone else will necessarily grant such permission to me as I have done above, and that I will in any case do my best to exercise caution in my admin actions, whether or not they may consitute a revert. — Ilmari Karonen ( talk) 20:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the "in the knowledge that another admin opposes it," part. I think Jimbo is spot on at User:Jimbo_Wales/Statement_of_principles (principle 2), where he says "there must be no hierarchy or structure which gets in the way of this openness to newcomers". Admins have the technical ability to do things others can't (by virtue of belonging to the sysop group), solely because it would be a security risk to give those abilities to all users.
Perhaps the example which most clearly demonstrates how the policy poses a problem is:
Contrast this with:
A strict reading of the policy makes the first case a violation but the second case not. This means that admin B is given a higher status (as opposed to technical access level) than user C. This applies even if user C is a much better contributor to Wikipedia than admin B. A1kmm 04:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
They contradict. "An admin action" would seem to mean the act, not the act only by that admin. If A blocks X and B unblocks X then C reblocks X, C knows that B objects to the block and yet he blocks anyways and would be in violation. In the examples, he is not. If the examples are correct it should probably say "...repeat any of their admin actions..." or something of the like (which still leaves the absurb posibility of 900 total blocks and unblocks without a violation, but I'm sure people know that). Kotepho 02:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
For the last 45 days or so, I've not been very active, so I don't know if this has been discussed before. Phil Welch has blocked a user and this was undone by other admins after a discussion on WP:AN just around 10-15 minutes. I believe that undoing an admin action, specifically something like removing a block, should not be considered as wheelwarring if the original block had to do something with the interaction that the admin has with the user. Thanks. -- Gurubrahma 11:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I rm except with community consensus from the policy text. (This was inserted with edit sum Modify summary to match text.) I'm fairly unhappy about it -- I believe in leaving new policy open to editing in general and I don't like to seem the sole defender of my own draft. Please allow me to discuss this edit.
First, the edit sum itself. The policy is deliberately worded on one line. That's not a summary of the policy: that's the text. Everything else on the page interprets or illuminates this; nothing else has the same force as the text. Note the refactored prior discussions under Commentary: some contradict one another but they all illuminate our joint state of mind as we refine this policy. None have the force of policy itself. I realize that other policies are extremely wordy; lately the fashion has been to head some policies with a summary titled "...in a nutshell". This is not the case here -- and indeed, I think these policies are not particularly well worded. The more words a law contains, the more crevices left to shelter lawyers.
Community consensus is, of course, our highest organizational principle. It trumps all other policies at all times. But it is rather risky to make explicit exceptions to lesser policies. It is all too easy for a malefactor to claim But I had community consensus behind my actions! Consensus is just one of those things, like good music: All know it when they see it but everyone has a different opinion of what it is.
I suggest that the desire to leave loopholes like this stems from the all-too-prevalent feeling that if I don't fix this, it won't get fixed. Unfortunately this is exactly the good intention that leads to bitter wheel wars.
I do think this clause is a pretty big risk -- but if the community insists on it, I'll not demand its removal. I'm just me. John Reid 06:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
This is one of the worst recipes for wikilawyering I've seen, because it's so complex. I've removed the policy summary because it's not clear what it even means, and you seem to be trying to come up with a novel definition of wheel war, whereby the admin who starts is may do so, but any subsequent admin is only allowed to undo once? Is that it?
It's particularly important that the wording be simple and clear (and fair) if people might be penalized. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
The temptation to move this to Proposed wheel warring policy ON WHEELS!!! is so strong! -- Saaber 07:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Slim Virgin deleted the entire policy (!) as shown above with edit sum I strongly disagree with that summary; see talk. I really think I've done enough here and it's somebody else's turn -- but I'd suggest that we either reinsert the policy statement into the policy page or insert a new policy statement.
As I've said before, the boxed text is intended to be the policy, not a summary of that policy. Only this text is intended to have the force of policy; all else is explanation and commentary, with lesser force. Without any actual policy statement, this page now looks to me like a wheel without an axle upon which to turn. John Reid 22:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I don't think so. The discussions that led up to this point were lively and drew wide participation. This is a wiki and details are always subject to change but I see broad support. Thanks for helping; I've boxed the policy statement again and fixed a minor typo. John Reid 01:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The scope of an admin's action is a critical factor in our evaluation of a charge of wheel warring. Factors in aggravation or mitigation may include, but are not limited to:
The context of an admins action may influence the finding of wheel warring. Few defenses are able to succeed. Possible defenses include:
On a personal note, I'd like to thank the many editors who contributed to this proposal. This was not created overnight nor was it the pet project of one or two editors. Much was written, much was debated, much was hacked away, and much rewritten. The people who contributed here did not all agree on every point but in the end we all managed to hammer out something we can live with.
I believe an example has been set here that we would do well to follow in our dealings with other troublesome issues. John Reid 03:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I've moved this page to "Wheel wars". Having a page with "policy" in the title when it's a {{ guideline}}, not a {{ policy}}, is somewhat absurd. -- Sam Blanning (talk) 14:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh dear, turns out we've already got a page called Wikipedia:Wheel war, so that's too confusing. I'll move to Wikipedia:Wheel war guideline... and I just had to realise that only when I was finished doing the double redirects >_< -- Sam Blanning (talk) 14:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
This policy-to-be enjoys broad support. It doesn't answer every need nor does it meet everyone's every expectation. Your concern, CBD, was aired at length during the process that led up to the current version. It's legitimate.
I think if you read both "front" and talk sides to this page -- and especially if you review history of both -- you'll see the rationale for permitting the slow-motion, one-shot-per-admin WW. That such a thing is a WW, there is no doubt; that it is highly discouraged, also no doubt. Perhaps ArbCom will even sanction somebody for participating in such a thing; I rather hope the effect of this policy will be to moderate such penalties. That's really neither here nor there. WP:WHEEL has a much looser definition of WW and that's a good thing. Admins should avoid anything that even looks like WW but it's hard to draw a bright line there; this is the function of the words at WHEEL. Absent the bright line, reasonable men might argue on either side when some admin is accused of WW. This page has a very strict definition that everybody can agree on. You may well be WW before you cross this line; you certainly are, once over it.
The trouble with forbidding the slo-mo WW is when somebody asks the question, When is it a WW? If you can answer this question quickly and confidently without using loaded terms like "vandalism" and "good faith", then you are an involved party to a potential WW.
Let's say -- in neutral terms -- that I, Zeus, from my remote and entirely neutral mountaintop observe an editor blocked by Admin A. Is that a WW? No. The disagreement, whatever it is, is between an admin and a non-admin; it's not a WW. Okay, well, the block is lifted by Admin B. Is that a WW? Probably not. It may not even be a difference of opinion, depending on the length of the block, the time elapsed, and whether the blocked editor made a good plea for unblock. Perhaps Admin A would have been happy to lift the block if he'd seen the plea but he's out to lunch. Now, what if Admin A talks to Admin B and restores the block with B's agreement? That's not a WW, is it? No. B no longer opposes. If A fails to talk with B that may still not be a WW; perhaps circumstances have changed. Perhaps the editor in question made a fool of B in the meantime, giving the lie to his apparently good plea but now B is out to lunch. Admin A reblocks and B is content; it's not a WW.
On the other hand, perhaps A and B are known enemies. Let's say they're involved in a prior edit war over Chile or Chili; they have, of course, steered close to 3RR but wisely never overstepped that bound. Coldly civil, contentious words have been exchanged on talk. Now A blocks an editor who gets into the edit war on B's side. B unblocks. WW? Probably so but how do you prove it? Where do you draw the line? A and B aren't blood brothers? A and B have both edited the same article? They have occasionally left messages on each other's talk? If they've left rude messages we don't need to look for a WW; we should sanction them immediately for violation of WP:CIVIL. If not, it's because such messages are polite enough -- therefore, how can you say that either A or B did not act in good faith? The standard is plain and easy to apply: If A knows that B opposes and reblocks, it's a WW. Note that the "reasonable man" principle of common law applies here; Admin A cannot claim ignorance if a good showing can be made that a reasonable admin should have known that B opposed.
Well, why isn't B WW if he knows that A opposes the unblock? Well, we have explicit language for this, too: Do not repeat ... Since B has never yet acted, his action -- however in-your-face it may be -- cannot, when it comes, be WW. It may be hostile, uncivil, unwise, or a clear breach of community trust. But these are all subjective evaluations and don't lend themselves to bright-line distinctions. We here on this page permit B to act once. This gets us out of the deadly trap of endorsing whoever shoots first. Otherwise, A could do any damn thing, announce loudly that he opposed any counteraction, and "own" the article or user until doomsday.
So, if Admin A is wrong to reblock knowing B is in opposition, why do we permit C to do the same thing? Well, first of all, perhaps we don't. Perhaps we sanction C for being hostile, uncivil, unwise, or somehow violating his trust. But if he can make some plausible argument that A is right and B is wrong, then he is entitled to act -- whether you or I agree. By "entitled" I only mean to say that he has not violated 0WW. Who knows what else he's done. It should never be the purpose of a new policy to restate all the other policies that might apply to a given situation. Avoiding sanction under 0WW does not guarantee C a free pass under any other policy including WHEEL. 0WW does raise the bar slightly for the person who wishes to attack C; it's just not enough to yell "He reverted/reblocked/reprotected -- he's WW". So you see, by giving C his one shot, we avoid the second deadly trap of endorsing whoever shoots second.
In similar vein, we permit D to reunblock -- but not B. We avoid endorsing whoever shot first and whoever shot the third time, confirming the first guy. After all, who is "right"? We can't say just by examining the block log. Admin A may have chosen wisely and B may have done so; both are probably a little right and both probably a good bit in the wrong. But we avoid endorsing either party as we would if we attempted to call a halt to the slo-mo WW. If we did yell stop at some point, we would freeze the situation in favor of one side or the other -- and at any point far from the end, a fanatic is in charge of each side. We have cut short some unpleasantness and disruption but paid the price by setting a biased point of view in stone.
Instead, the WW plays itself out. Yes, 20 admins on each side may hit the ball one time each and everybody watches the ball go back and forth. I'll bet that in the course of the slo-WW most of the participants will have violated a small handful of other policies -- and we get to sanction every one of them for that -- and we should. If by some small miracle, all 40 admins manage to stagger through the process without (a) ad hominem attack, (b) failure to assume good faith, (c) failure to discuss contentious changes on talk, (d), (e), (f), and (g), well then, what harm has been done? Not much -- certainly not as much as if the same crew were to squabble over which side crossed the line first. The latter scenario boots the issue up one notch on the metawar ladder: always an evil thing.
Sooner or later, one side or the other will have exhausted all those willing to make complete jackasses of themselves and risk sanctions due to violations of (a) through (z) other policies -- everyone completely unwilling to compromise anyway, even if you chained them to the table. Now moderates -- still holding strong opinions but not fanatics -- come in and do their bit -- but with a smidgen of real compromise. The trick is that we have got all the fanatics away from the table. With them gone, the moderates who remain will work something out; in the very worst case, the last man standing will decide. And it will still be over and every admin will have had a whack at the ball.
I guarantee to any reader that if you do not see the justice in this, it is because you are thinking of a particular WW, one in which you hold an opinion as to which side was "right". You want the 0WW policy to somehow be written so that, if it had been in effect back then, "your" side would have been granted the victory. Instead, 0WW takes the attitude that all WW is wrong but there is no way to call an arbitrary end to a slo-mo war without taking sides. The last thing we want to do is create a system for somebody to game; so we never take a side in a WW. By insisting that every editor has one shot only, we ensure its swiftest possible neutral end. John Reid 00:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)