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Currently, it says "video game guide". Any reason why it says this and leaves the door open for game guides for board games? Corpx 05:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Can this section be deleted entirely? I would think non-encyclopedic guides would fail verifiability/notability on their own, and in cases where they do not, should probably be kept anyway - Ten Commandments, Coca-Cola Formula, Standing Rules of the United States Senate, etc. Evouga 16:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The bottom line: if video game guides are not allowed, no game guides should be allowed. So far nobody's even attempted to give a reason why video games should be singled out while board games get a free pass. -- MisterHand ( Talk to the Hand| Contribs) 16:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that video games and board games and card games should all be treated consistently in terms of what sorts of articles are allowed. Strategy guides for any game should be frowned upon in general. I think the main exception would be if a particular strategy or class of strategies of a particular game or game genre is significantly analyzed and discussed in outside publications. In such cases you can probably construct a reasonably encyclopedic, comprehensive and analytical article about that sort of strategy using reliable references and be confident that it has proper notability and lack of original research.
In fact, that level of outside published analysis is a significant area where classic games like chess or go differ from the average video game. Chess strategies, for example, have been painstakingly analyzed for hundreds of years. But most (not all) video games will have at most one or maybe two published game guides for reference and pretty much no encyclopedic analysis of its strategies. That is why you're more likely to have acceptable articles about chess strategies versus articles explaining how to beat a particular video game. Dugwiki 17:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
A logical perspective... hopefully I'm going to try to lay this out logically.
(For the same reasons Wikipedia itself is so effective)
These statements are relatively uncontroversial, I think. The controversial bit is the disparity between the two interpretations:
These two sides both make very good points. I personally think the latter is more apt. The bottom line is, should the definition of WP:NOT#GUIDE automatically call for the deletion of the Rules Of Chess despite the overwhelming majority consensus in the AfD that it shouldn't? Simondrake 21:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Oops, my bad, I missed out what point I was trying to make. Someone is currently listing Rules Of Chess for deletion on the logic that it contains rules for gameplay therefore can be used to deduce how to play therefore is a guide to play therefore is a game-guide therefore should be deleted exactly as Defeating Bowser For Dummies or The Lock-picking Technique In Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion made easy. I think this is a farce. The page meets all other criteria on neutrality, notability, references and all other wikipedia rules, the only complaint is that it is a game-guide in the opinion of the nominator. The question is, should the page be deleted for being a game-guide or should the game-guide-guidelines be rewritten or adjusted to stop this rediculous AfD from returning? Simondrake 22:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have a question as to what a "game guide" is, exactly. It's a vague, undefined term, and I'm not sure that we need it at all. Shouldn't the terms "how-to" and "walkthrough" already cover this ground for both table and video games? - Chunky Rice 22:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I personally think that since many well known games like chess poker go etc have lasted generations while most video games have not (and have not have had the chance either -- there is no reason to suspect that people 50 years from now will be playing any video game around in any large number (does anyone still play pong?) but I am sure that people will still be playing chess and go and poker. this is reason enough for one to be encylopedic and the other not, but, i would much rather see rules of video games in wikipedia than 80+kb arguments on why the rules of chess should not be. XinJeisan 05:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
For reference, see the guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject Board and table games#Strategy, currently reading: "despite the fact that this material may be of interest to the reader, Wikipedia is not an instruction manual. Discussion of game strategy should serve to illustrate why the subject is of interest, and not be included simply for its own sake." This is the attempt by that project to apply WP:NOT to board games and define what consitutes an unencyclopedic "game guide." If any change comes out of this discussion, someone should update accordingly. - Stellmach 14:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
To reply to some of the comments above, the idea that there aren't a lot of board games simply isn't true. Keep in mind that people were making and playing board games for over a hundred years prior to video gaming, and there are many, many board game whose strategy discussions aren't nearly as notable as Chess. Also keep in mind that there are many video games which are not simple single play platform puzzles or roleplaying games. Virtually all multiplayer shooters and multiplayer computer war games and other competitive video games can have very intricate strategy discussions back and forth on their related forums. And since Starcraft was mentioned, I should point out that Starcraft in particular is quite literally a major national professional sport and pastime in South Korea, on par with other conventional sporting events there. So just because a game is a video game doesn't necessarilly mean there aren't potentially good, verifiable and notable topics for certain strategy specific concept articles.
I think the best approach is to ignore whether a game is a board game or video game and instead focus on questions of verifiability, original research, bias, reliable sources and notable publication of sources on the topic at hand. If an article about a game or video game doesn't meet standards in those areas then it should be ammended or deleted. If it sufficiently meets standards in those areas then it's probably a reasonable topic for its own article. Thus focussing in on whether or not the game is a board game or card game or video game is basically a red herring that diverts attention from the more significant issues I mentioned. Dugwiki 15:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Following on from the game guide discussion above, I'm starting to think that the entire "not an instruction manual" paragraph is flawed in some essential way. A number of articles about magic tricks have been nominated for deletion recently. Regardless of issues of notability, many people have been suggesting that they must be deleted as they are, essentially, "howto" style guides. The problem I see here is that it is difficult to explain a magic trick without also providing information about how it is performed. I've also seen discussions of what ingredients might be included in certain foods removed because "wikipedia is not a recipe book", and so on.
I think some kind of distinction needs to be drawn between content that is designed to inform (e.g., explain to somebody who has seen a magic trick how it might have been performed, or to somebody reading about chess who needs to understand the motivations for a variety of strategies) to that designed to instruct (e.g., a stage magician who wants to learn to perform a particular trick, or somebody trying to learn to play chess).
I think the primary difference between these two is the level of detail. To inform somebody about a magic trick, you might say "misdirection is used to distract the audience while the magician places the coin in his pocket", whereas to instruct you might say "the magician then distracts the audience by displaying the handkerchief with his right hand while his left hand places the coin in the right pocket of his overcoat" (for example).
Any comments? JulesH 14:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I think a good starting point for discussing how-to guides is to look at the practical reasons we are trying to avoid having them in Wikipedia. A few reasons come to mind off the top of my head.
The above areas seem to me to be particular areas of concern regarding how-to instruction manuals. I think that articles which might be classified as "how-to" guides and which show weakness in those areas should be considered for removal or change. Articles which seem to be relatively ok in all these areas are probably going to be more reasonable for inclusion, even if they delve slightly into the realm of giving instructions.
Rationale for why we avoid how-to guides might be a good topic for an essay or guideline to supplement the policy. If someone feels like coming up with such a supplemental page, feel free to post about it. I'd be interested in seeing the results. Dugwiki 16:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
...or is it? I've seen this argument crop up a great deal lately, that we need to keep Wikipedia in some form so that it will be useful to people a hundred years from now. But this strikes me as being contrary to what Wikipedia is about. I'd like to see "Not a timecapsule" become part of the explicit list, and I want to know what others think about that. -- Eyrian 15:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Was there consensus to add this section? I don't see in this discussion, that's for sure. -- MisterHand ( Talk to the Hand| Contribs) 03:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I haven't checked all the archives, but I think the rule regarding WP:NOT#MEMORIAL needs to be better explained. It has been cited many times recently as a reason for removing neutral and sourced lists of fatalities from accidents and bombings, especially in regards to the Troubles in Northern Ireland and also regarding school massacres. Some examples: here, here, here and here to name a few. Whilst there is much debate on whether the lists should or should not be included (I think they should, but I'm open to the alternative point of view), the guideline above is clearly inadequate as a reason for their removal. I think it is necessary for the line to be expanded to say something like either "this guideline extends to lists of dead, which should be removed" or "this guideline is not intended to be used for the removal of lists within an article". This was, I see, brought up previously here, and I substantially agree with Dugwiki's comments, but I see they were not enacted in the guideline and would push for something to be added along the lines of his proposal.-- Jackyd101 11:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikisource does not collect reference material unless it is published as part of a complete source text. Such information has not been previously published, is often user-compiled and unverified, and does not fit the goals of Wikisource. Some examples of these include Lists; Mathematical constants (such as digits of pi); Tables of data or results; Cryptographic material; Source code. They do not publish data or information--they publish texts available as PD. The question where it most recently came up to my knowledge was tables of astronomical data, currently on WP. DGG ( talk) 18:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I oppose any change to allow lists of non-notable victims without any specific reason for inclusion. The comments regarding Bloody Sunday (1972) are specious, there is no list of dead similar to the ones being proposed. Rather than summarise, there is a discussion here which shows exactly how the list in that article is different to a list of people who died in a bombing or other incident. An article about such incidents should ideally consist of the following:
It would be physically impossible to have an article about Bloody Sunday (1972) without a list of victims due to the very nature of the incident and subsequent inquiries into it. A more apt comparison to an article about a bombing would be Bloody Sunday (1920) which does not have a list of dead, as it would be nothing but a memorial which is what is being proposed here. Such lists are not only memorials but also indiscriminate information, the names of dead are not relevant encylopedic content. Brixton Busters 11:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Dugwiki. If you need to give names and details to explain what happened, then such a list is fine. For a war, it is informative enough to say "23,456 people died", plus a few more details. No reader in the world is going to say "I wonder where I can find a list of all 23,456 people?" For a school shooting, it is quite likely that a reader will ask: "who were the 7 people that died?" I'm not touching the Irish Troubles examples with a bargepole, except to say that there is a murky middle ground where the numbers start to become too big for a list. Carcharoth 23:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Having seen Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2007-08 United States network television schedule and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lists of programs broadcast by networks in various forms over time, I wonder if it's a good idea to clarify the portions of WP:NOT that talk about program guides and schedules. It seems there is a consensus that certain forms of these articles should be kept, if not all, but there's a regularly recurring problem with folks nominated articles that seemingly meet the criteria but really don't. I think the expression in the current page is unclear and needs to be modified. FrozenPurpleCube 01:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I have read on several newspapers that Wikipedia has censored things written about Chinas government, politics, and human rights in the Chinese version of Wikipedia. Is this true? Or has that changed..?
User:Durova/Wikipedia is not an experiment in consensus reality - currently an essay in user space, with a few links to demonstrate why an explicit policy clause may be a good idea. Durova Charge! 21:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Whoa! This has reached over 80 entries on the Table of Contents... We need another archive here, STAT! -- Luigifan 17:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Would providing a listing of the routes serivced by a company be a violation of WP:NOT#TRAVEL, among other things here? The question is pertaining to Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Egged_bus_lines Corpx 16:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that this be added to the things WP is not. In a lot of articles about controversial people the subjects are charged with offenses and evidence is presented to support the charges. Then the subjects' defenders present counter evidence. Steve Dufour 20:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I have run into many dictionary definitions on Wikipedia and wish to propose that this policy be changed to allow that Wikipedia carries dictionary definitions. I recently proposed deletion of de jure and had my proposal removed quickly by another editor (I now believe correctly, see the discussion). The other editor pointed to a recent keep decision for the article de facto, which is better described as a group of definitions, examples, and some non-definitional text on tangential topics such as a list of notable de facto dictators, and an explanation of why their rule was de facto and not de jure. To me, the decision to keep this article suggests that removing definitions is not the policy of Wikipedia as observed. I would propose that lengthy definitions with a large number of examples are Wikipedia what Wikipedia is. Pdbailey 02:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The solution to this situation is not to further bend the definition of "encyclopedic" but to get more of our readers/editors involved in Wiktionary and teach them how easy it is to expand those entries and to cross-link them to Wikipedia. Wikipedia entries should always be more than mere lexical content. (Lexical content, by the way, includes the definition, origins and usage of a word or phrase.) Pages which are mere dictionary definitions should be moved to/merged with Wiktionary and, in my opinion, the Wikipedia page replaced with a soft redirect to the Wiktionary page. Rossami (talk) 15:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Note 5 reads:
If you believe that your legal rights are being violated, you may discuss this with other users involved, take the matter to the appropriate mailing list, contact the Wikimedia Foundation, or in cases of copyright violations notify us at Wikipedia:Request for immediate removal of copyright violation.
IMO this should be expanded to read:
If you believe that your legal rights are being violated, you may discuss this with other users involved, take the matter to the appropriate mailing list, contact the Wikimedia Foundation, take legal action against one or more authors and/or against the Wikimedia Foundation, or in cases of copyright violations notify us at Wikipedia:Request for immediate removal of copyright violation.
Although taking legal action may not the preferred method, it is obviously a realistic option and should therefore be part of the list of actions in Note 5.
I disagree with some parts of WP:NOT because of the very nature of wikis and how Wikipedia has historically been used. Lists and indiscriminately collecting information are fine on my part, I'm ok with reversible vandalism, and I see no problem with soapboxing on comment pages. Methinks I'll consider leaving WP and setting up my own Wiki Encyclopedia. — Rickyrab | Talk 03:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
that's what WP:NOT#GUIDE says. that wikipedia articles should not include instructions. so why does greatest common divisor contains instructions on how to find them? why does euclidean algorithm contain instructions on how to prove it?
as written, both these examples are in clear violation. either WP:NOT#GUIDE should be rewritten to include exceptions like those or it should be removed as a policy. double standards, such as are currently present, don't do anyone any good (unless you're trying to advance a particular agenda - then silencing critics and empowering proponents is quite advantageous) 209.209.214.5 05:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
At present this contains the language:
This language is inappropriately vague, as it fails to define what "loosely associated topics" are. In trying to find out what it originally meant, I searched the history. It stems from an old rule #9, which read: "[Encyclopedia articles are not:] Mere lists of quotations and aphorisms. (But some such lists might be very nice to have to supplement encyclopedia articles, sure.)"
It was emended 20 June 2002 by User:Mav to read: "List repository of loosely associated topics such as; quotations, aphorisms or persons (But of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed too the list topic)."
Mav added this line based on a discussion copied from Talk:Listing of noted atheists which began " Who cares about these people being atheists?". The discussion doesn't really show a consensus (some people liked the idea of the article; some didn't). The meaning of the emended rule, with respect to the discussion, seems to be "don't include people in a list of atheists who are famous for some other reason but happen to be atheists; include only people who are famous for being atheists"; that is, that the common characteristic of list members by which they are chosen should be central, rather than peripheral to their reasons for being mentioned at all.
It should be noted that List of atheists still exists, has done so uninterruptedly since 2001, and includes multiple members who are famous for reasons not directly related to their atheism. In fact, the utility of such an article seems to be in calling attention to the atheism of people who are not widely known as being atheists.
The precise meaning of the "loosely associated" language appears never to have been discussed. This has resulted in some disputes over the meaning, with some editors loosely interpreting it in a way that could be used to characterize any list as "loosely associated"; in particular, understanding it to mean that any list which is not itself copied verbatim from a secondary source (which would be pretty nearly all of Wikipedia's lists) is "loosely associated", on the grounds that without reference to such a source the notability, or perhaps the verifiability, of the list (as a list -- not the notability or verifiability of its elements!) cannot be established.
I suggest that this is not the consensus of Wikipedia editors. I suggest that there is a general consensus that there are more and less appropriate types of lists, and that while a "list of persons named Smith" is inappropriate as a list (though it might be useful as a disambiguation page), a " List of Apollo astronauts" is not, and that while it is appropriate that information within a list should be sourced, it is not necessary to have a source to justify the existence of a list. In between the "Smith" and "Apollo" types of lists, there is a large expanse of dubious ground, which apparently used to include " List of atheists" (though I doubt that this list is really controversial now).
I think it would be good to have a discussion to sort out what the editorial consensus really is, what principles it should based on, and how editors can use that to discriminate between a suitable and unsuitable list; and to write that into the policy, preferably without using the words "loosely associated", which don't seem to have been chosen with a great deal of thought. I request a discussion to establish the correct policy with regard to "association", and I would hope that until the nature of this policy is more firmly established that it would not be cited as grounds for deletion of articles. RandomCritic 22:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm just going to weigh in here. One thing that I think it is very important to recognize is that there are all different kinds of lists, and that standards that work for some may not work for others.
I find that in AfD discussions the magic words "loosely associated" come up most often in discussions of articles about "X in popular culture". In these cases thedistinction is important, and is essentially the main standard used in determining whether the article should be kept or dleted: If all of the subjects listed are closely connected to or based on the main subject, the article is a good list, but if all of the subjects listed only make passing reference to the main subject, and are otherwise unrelated, then the list is trivial I find that for the most part, this is a very effective and accurate way to judge the article, and whether or not the subjects are "loosely associated" is usually very clear.
In general, the "loosely associated" thing shouldn't come up very often in other contexts, usually because other issues are more prominent. For example, the notability of the main connecting subject is more important. After that, the main problem tends to be how broad the main subject is. The problem with a List of atheists is a problem that can apply when discussion any list of people based on religion, ethnicity, nationality, or any other basic grounds for categorization that applies to millions of people worldwide. The problem is not how closely the subjects are related, but how strict the inclusion criteria is.
Overall, a "ist of loosely associated topics" would be a list in which the subjects listed only have a minor or insignificant relationship with the main subject. As it stands right now, it is suggested that the items should not be "loosely associated" with one another, as opposed to the main subject. If you ask me, that would be the wrong way to go about things. First off, I have yet to see a list where the subjects are all related to one another, but do not relate to the main subject. Secondly, there are lists where supposedly unrelated subjects are related simply in the fact that they all relate to the main subject, which, in turn makes them much more closely associated. For example, one could argue that a List of James Bond villains would be loosely associated because they have nothing in common other than the fact that they're James Bond villains, but at the same, they are very closely associated because they are all James Bond villains. In short, how they relate to the main subject will always be more important than how they relate to one another.
Then we come around to the other problem, as to how we can objectively define how significantly one thing relates to another thing. If you ask me, it all comes around to verifiability. If you can attribute a source which recognizes that one subject has a close relationship to another subject, or that a book, periodical or other media outlet recognizes the two subjects as being closely related, then you almost can't go wrong, because an argument based on a reliable source is always more substantial than an article based on absolutely nothing.
So what I propose is this (1) change the wording to recognize that "loosely associated" refers to association with the main subject, not association with each other, (2) recognize that association is something thatcould (or should) be verified, and (3) think of some way to put an end to superfluous citation of WP:NOT#DIR, although I'm not sure that there's anything that can be done about that.
Now, requiring lists to cite association with the main topic may do more harm than good, as it would allow situations where subjects that are clearly associated would be eligible for deletion, simply because they do not have references to assert association. For that reason I'm not sure how good an idea it would be, but it is indeed a major step toward establishing a standard for confirmation of how associated two subjects are. Calgary 22:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
...where does one find the directory for Everything That Has Ever Existed? -- Chr.K. 12:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I've added two items to NOT#DIRECTORY, that come up regularly in AFD and would benefit the project to have a clear statement in WP:NOT. They cover gazeteer type directories, and directories that list arbitrary cross-categorizations. Hopefully the wording is self-explanatory. Both include suitable exceptions for those gazeteers and cross-categorizations that should have articles. FT2 ( Talk | email) 21:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I added a "see also" to Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) in criteria 1. I see this one quoted in AfDs from editors who do not seem to be familiar with the provisions of that stand-alone policy. I think the whole list policy may need overhaul given how rancorous those AfDs become (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of British Chinese people (second nomination) for example), but I think that making sure all editors are aware of the various core policies could be helpful in the meantime. :) -- Moonriddengirl 12:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 20 |
Currently, it says "video game guide". Any reason why it says this and leaves the door open for game guides for board games? Corpx 05:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Can this section be deleted entirely? I would think non-encyclopedic guides would fail verifiability/notability on their own, and in cases where they do not, should probably be kept anyway - Ten Commandments, Coca-Cola Formula, Standing Rules of the United States Senate, etc. Evouga 16:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The bottom line: if video game guides are not allowed, no game guides should be allowed. So far nobody's even attempted to give a reason why video games should be singled out while board games get a free pass. -- MisterHand ( Talk to the Hand| Contribs) 16:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that video games and board games and card games should all be treated consistently in terms of what sorts of articles are allowed. Strategy guides for any game should be frowned upon in general. I think the main exception would be if a particular strategy or class of strategies of a particular game or game genre is significantly analyzed and discussed in outside publications. In such cases you can probably construct a reasonably encyclopedic, comprehensive and analytical article about that sort of strategy using reliable references and be confident that it has proper notability and lack of original research.
In fact, that level of outside published analysis is a significant area where classic games like chess or go differ from the average video game. Chess strategies, for example, have been painstakingly analyzed for hundreds of years. But most (not all) video games will have at most one or maybe two published game guides for reference and pretty much no encyclopedic analysis of its strategies. That is why you're more likely to have acceptable articles about chess strategies versus articles explaining how to beat a particular video game. Dugwiki 17:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
A logical perspective... hopefully I'm going to try to lay this out logically.
(For the same reasons Wikipedia itself is so effective)
These statements are relatively uncontroversial, I think. The controversial bit is the disparity between the two interpretations:
These two sides both make very good points. I personally think the latter is more apt. The bottom line is, should the definition of WP:NOT#GUIDE automatically call for the deletion of the Rules Of Chess despite the overwhelming majority consensus in the AfD that it shouldn't? Simondrake 21:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Oops, my bad, I missed out what point I was trying to make. Someone is currently listing Rules Of Chess for deletion on the logic that it contains rules for gameplay therefore can be used to deduce how to play therefore is a guide to play therefore is a game-guide therefore should be deleted exactly as Defeating Bowser For Dummies or The Lock-picking Technique In Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion made easy. I think this is a farce. The page meets all other criteria on neutrality, notability, references and all other wikipedia rules, the only complaint is that it is a game-guide in the opinion of the nominator. The question is, should the page be deleted for being a game-guide or should the game-guide-guidelines be rewritten or adjusted to stop this rediculous AfD from returning? Simondrake 22:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have a question as to what a "game guide" is, exactly. It's a vague, undefined term, and I'm not sure that we need it at all. Shouldn't the terms "how-to" and "walkthrough" already cover this ground for both table and video games? - Chunky Rice 22:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I personally think that since many well known games like chess poker go etc have lasted generations while most video games have not (and have not have had the chance either -- there is no reason to suspect that people 50 years from now will be playing any video game around in any large number (does anyone still play pong?) but I am sure that people will still be playing chess and go and poker. this is reason enough for one to be encylopedic and the other not, but, i would much rather see rules of video games in wikipedia than 80+kb arguments on why the rules of chess should not be. XinJeisan 05:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
For reference, see the guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject Board and table games#Strategy, currently reading: "despite the fact that this material may be of interest to the reader, Wikipedia is not an instruction manual. Discussion of game strategy should serve to illustrate why the subject is of interest, and not be included simply for its own sake." This is the attempt by that project to apply WP:NOT to board games and define what consitutes an unencyclopedic "game guide." If any change comes out of this discussion, someone should update accordingly. - Stellmach 14:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
To reply to some of the comments above, the idea that there aren't a lot of board games simply isn't true. Keep in mind that people were making and playing board games for over a hundred years prior to video gaming, and there are many, many board game whose strategy discussions aren't nearly as notable as Chess. Also keep in mind that there are many video games which are not simple single play platform puzzles or roleplaying games. Virtually all multiplayer shooters and multiplayer computer war games and other competitive video games can have very intricate strategy discussions back and forth on their related forums. And since Starcraft was mentioned, I should point out that Starcraft in particular is quite literally a major national professional sport and pastime in South Korea, on par with other conventional sporting events there. So just because a game is a video game doesn't necessarilly mean there aren't potentially good, verifiable and notable topics for certain strategy specific concept articles.
I think the best approach is to ignore whether a game is a board game or video game and instead focus on questions of verifiability, original research, bias, reliable sources and notable publication of sources on the topic at hand. If an article about a game or video game doesn't meet standards in those areas then it should be ammended or deleted. If it sufficiently meets standards in those areas then it's probably a reasonable topic for its own article. Thus focussing in on whether or not the game is a board game or card game or video game is basically a red herring that diverts attention from the more significant issues I mentioned. Dugwiki 15:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Following on from the game guide discussion above, I'm starting to think that the entire "not an instruction manual" paragraph is flawed in some essential way. A number of articles about magic tricks have been nominated for deletion recently. Regardless of issues of notability, many people have been suggesting that they must be deleted as they are, essentially, "howto" style guides. The problem I see here is that it is difficult to explain a magic trick without also providing information about how it is performed. I've also seen discussions of what ingredients might be included in certain foods removed because "wikipedia is not a recipe book", and so on.
I think some kind of distinction needs to be drawn between content that is designed to inform (e.g., explain to somebody who has seen a magic trick how it might have been performed, or to somebody reading about chess who needs to understand the motivations for a variety of strategies) to that designed to instruct (e.g., a stage magician who wants to learn to perform a particular trick, or somebody trying to learn to play chess).
I think the primary difference between these two is the level of detail. To inform somebody about a magic trick, you might say "misdirection is used to distract the audience while the magician places the coin in his pocket", whereas to instruct you might say "the magician then distracts the audience by displaying the handkerchief with his right hand while his left hand places the coin in the right pocket of his overcoat" (for example).
Any comments? JulesH 14:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I think a good starting point for discussing how-to guides is to look at the practical reasons we are trying to avoid having them in Wikipedia. A few reasons come to mind off the top of my head.
The above areas seem to me to be particular areas of concern regarding how-to instruction manuals. I think that articles which might be classified as "how-to" guides and which show weakness in those areas should be considered for removal or change. Articles which seem to be relatively ok in all these areas are probably going to be more reasonable for inclusion, even if they delve slightly into the realm of giving instructions.
Rationale for why we avoid how-to guides might be a good topic for an essay or guideline to supplement the policy. If someone feels like coming up with such a supplemental page, feel free to post about it. I'd be interested in seeing the results. Dugwiki 16:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
...or is it? I've seen this argument crop up a great deal lately, that we need to keep Wikipedia in some form so that it will be useful to people a hundred years from now. But this strikes me as being contrary to what Wikipedia is about. I'd like to see "Not a timecapsule" become part of the explicit list, and I want to know what others think about that. -- Eyrian 15:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Was there consensus to add this section? I don't see in this discussion, that's for sure. -- MisterHand ( Talk to the Hand| Contribs) 03:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I haven't checked all the archives, but I think the rule regarding WP:NOT#MEMORIAL needs to be better explained. It has been cited many times recently as a reason for removing neutral and sourced lists of fatalities from accidents and bombings, especially in regards to the Troubles in Northern Ireland and also regarding school massacres. Some examples: here, here, here and here to name a few. Whilst there is much debate on whether the lists should or should not be included (I think they should, but I'm open to the alternative point of view), the guideline above is clearly inadequate as a reason for their removal. I think it is necessary for the line to be expanded to say something like either "this guideline extends to lists of dead, which should be removed" or "this guideline is not intended to be used for the removal of lists within an article". This was, I see, brought up previously here, and I substantially agree with Dugwiki's comments, but I see they were not enacted in the guideline and would push for something to be added along the lines of his proposal.-- Jackyd101 11:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikisource does not collect reference material unless it is published as part of a complete source text. Such information has not been previously published, is often user-compiled and unverified, and does not fit the goals of Wikisource. Some examples of these include Lists; Mathematical constants (such as digits of pi); Tables of data or results; Cryptographic material; Source code. They do not publish data or information--they publish texts available as PD. The question where it most recently came up to my knowledge was tables of astronomical data, currently on WP. DGG ( talk) 18:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I oppose any change to allow lists of non-notable victims without any specific reason for inclusion. The comments regarding Bloody Sunday (1972) are specious, there is no list of dead similar to the ones being proposed. Rather than summarise, there is a discussion here which shows exactly how the list in that article is different to a list of people who died in a bombing or other incident. An article about such incidents should ideally consist of the following:
It would be physically impossible to have an article about Bloody Sunday (1972) without a list of victims due to the very nature of the incident and subsequent inquiries into it. A more apt comparison to an article about a bombing would be Bloody Sunday (1920) which does not have a list of dead, as it would be nothing but a memorial which is what is being proposed here. Such lists are not only memorials but also indiscriminate information, the names of dead are not relevant encylopedic content. Brixton Busters 11:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Dugwiki. If you need to give names and details to explain what happened, then such a list is fine. For a war, it is informative enough to say "23,456 people died", plus a few more details. No reader in the world is going to say "I wonder where I can find a list of all 23,456 people?" For a school shooting, it is quite likely that a reader will ask: "who were the 7 people that died?" I'm not touching the Irish Troubles examples with a bargepole, except to say that there is a murky middle ground where the numbers start to become too big for a list. Carcharoth 23:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Having seen Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2007-08 United States network television schedule and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lists of programs broadcast by networks in various forms over time, I wonder if it's a good idea to clarify the portions of WP:NOT that talk about program guides and schedules. It seems there is a consensus that certain forms of these articles should be kept, if not all, but there's a regularly recurring problem with folks nominated articles that seemingly meet the criteria but really don't. I think the expression in the current page is unclear and needs to be modified. FrozenPurpleCube 01:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I have read on several newspapers that Wikipedia has censored things written about Chinas government, politics, and human rights in the Chinese version of Wikipedia. Is this true? Or has that changed..?
User:Durova/Wikipedia is not an experiment in consensus reality - currently an essay in user space, with a few links to demonstrate why an explicit policy clause may be a good idea. Durova Charge! 21:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Whoa! This has reached over 80 entries on the Table of Contents... We need another archive here, STAT! -- Luigifan 17:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Would providing a listing of the routes serivced by a company be a violation of WP:NOT#TRAVEL, among other things here? The question is pertaining to Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Egged_bus_lines Corpx 16:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that this be added to the things WP is not. In a lot of articles about controversial people the subjects are charged with offenses and evidence is presented to support the charges. Then the subjects' defenders present counter evidence. Steve Dufour 20:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I have run into many dictionary definitions on Wikipedia and wish to propose that this policy be changed to allow that Wikipedia carries dictionary definitions. I recently proposed deletion of de jure and had my proposal removed quickly by another editor (I now believe correctly, see the discussion). The other editor pointed to a recent keep decision for the article de facto, which is better described as a group of definitions, examples, and some non-definitional text on tangential topics such as a list of notable de facto dictators, and an explanation of why their rule was de facto and not de jure. To me, the decision to keep this article suggests that removing definitions is not the policy of Wikipedia as observed. I would propose that lengthy definitions with a large number of examples are Wikipedia what Wikipedia is. Pdbailey 02:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The solution to this situation is not to further bend the definition of "encyclopedic" but to get more of our readers/editors involved in Wiktionary and teach them how easy it is to expand those entries and to cross-link them to Wikipedia. Wikipedia entries should always be more than mere lexical content. (Lexical content, by the way, includes the definition, origins and usage of a word or phrase.) Pages which are mere dictionary definitions should be moved to/merged with Wiktionary and, in my opinion, the Wikipedia page replaced with a soft redirect to the Wiktionary page. Rossami (talk) 15:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Note 5 reads:
If you believe that your legal rights are being violated, you may discuss this with other users involved, take the matter to the appropriate mailing list, contact the Wikimedia Foundation, or in cases of copyright violations notify us at Wikipedia:Request for immediate removal of copyright violation.
IMO this should be expanded to read:
If you believe that your legal rights are being violated, you may discuss this with other users involved, take the matter to the appropriate mailing list, contact the Wikimedia Foundation, take legal action against one or more authors and/or against the Wikimedia Foundation, or in cases of copyright violations notify us at Wikipedia:Request for immediate removal of copyright violation.
Although taking legal action may not the preferred method, it is obviously a realistic option and should therefore be part of the list of actions in Note 5.
I disagree with some parts of WP:NOT because of the very nature of wikis and how Wikipedia has historically been used. Lists and indiscriminately collecting information are fine on my part, I'm ok with reversible vandalism, and I see no problem with soapboxing on comment pages. Methinks I'll consider leaving WP and setting up my own Wiki Encyclopedia. — Rickyrab | Talk 03:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
that's what WP:NOT#GUIDE says. that wikipedia articles should not include instructions. so why does greatest common divisor contains instructions on how to find them? why does euclidean algorithm contain instructions on how to prove it?
as written, both these examples are in clear violation. either WP:NOT#GUIDE should be rewritten to include exceptions like those or it should be removed as a policy. double standards, such as are currently present, don't do anyone any good (unless you're trying to advance a particular agenda - then silencing critics and empowering proponents is quite advantageous) 209.209.214.5 05:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
At present this contains the language:
This language is inappropriately vague, as it fails to define what "loosely associated topics" are. In trying to find out what it originally meant, I searched the history. It stems from an old rule #9, which read: "[Encyclopedia articles are not:] Mere lists of quotations and aphorisms. (But some such lists might be very nice to have to supplement encyclopedia articles, sure.)"
It was emended 20 June 2002 by User:Mav to read: "List repository of loosely associated topics such as; quotations, aphorisms or persons (But of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed too the list topic)."
Mav added this line based on a discussion copied from Talk:Listing of noted atheists which began " Who cares about these people being atheists?". The discussion doesn't really show a consensus (some people liked the idea of the article; some didn't). The meaning of the emended rule, with respect to the discussion, seems to be "don't include people in a list of atheists who are famous for some other reason but happen to be atheists; include only people who are famous for being atheists"; that is, that the common characteristic of list members by which they are chosen should be central, rather than peripheral to their reasons for being mentioned at all.
It should be noted that List of atheists still exists, has done so uninterruptedly since 2001, and includes multiple members who are famous for reasons not directly related to their atheism. In fact, the utility of such an article seems to be in calling attention to the atheism of people who are not widely known as being atheists.
The precise meaning of the "loosely associated" language appears never to have been discussed. This has resulted in some disputes over the meaning, with some editors loosely interpreting it in a way that could be used to characterize any list as "loosely associated"; in particular, understanding it to mean that any list which is not itself copied verbatim from a secondary source (which would be pretty nearly all of Wikipedia's lists) is "loosely associated", on the grounds that without reference to such a source the notability, or perhaps the verifiability, of the list (as a list -- not the notability or verifiability of its elements!) cannot be established.
I suggest that this is not the consensus of Wikipedia editors. I suggest that there is a general consensus that there are more and less appropriate types of lists, and that while a "list of persons named Smith" is inappropriate as a list (though it might be useful as a disambiguation page), a " List of Apollo astronauts" is not, and that while it is appropriate that information within a list should be sourced, it is not necessary to have a source to justify the existence of a list. In between the "Smith" and "Apollo" types of lists, there is a large expanse of dubious ground, which apparently used to include " List of atheists" (though I doubt that this list is really controversial now).
I think it would be good to have a discussion to sort out what the editorial consensus really is, what principles it should based on, and how editors can use that to discriminate between a suitable and unsuitable list; and to write that into the policy, preferably without using the words "loosely associated", which don't seem to have been chosen with a great deal of thought. I request a discussion to establish the correct policy with regard to "association", and I would hope that until the nature of this policy is more firmly established that it would not be cited as grounds for deletion of articles. RandomCritic 22:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm just going to weigh in here. One thing that I think it is very important to recognize is that there are all different kinds of lists, and that standards that work for some may not work for others.
I find that in AfD discussions the magic words "loosely associated" come up most often in discussions of articles about "X in popular culture". In these cases thedistinction is important, and is essentially the main standard used in determining whether the article should be kept or dleted: If all of the subjects listed are closely connected to or based on the main subject, the article is a good list, but if all of the subjects listed only make passing reference to the main subject, and are otherwise unrelated, then the list is trivial I find that for the most part, this is a very effective and accurate way to judge the article, and whether or not the subjects are "loosely associated" is usually very clear.
In general, the "loosely associated" thing shouldn't come up very often in other contexts, usually because other issues are more prominent. For example, the notability of the main connecting subject is more important. After that, the main problem tends to be how broad the main subject is. The problem with a List of atheists is a problem that can apply when discussion any list of people based on religion, ethnicity, nationality, or any other basic grounds for categorization that applies to millions of people worldwide. The problem is not how closely the subjects are related, but how strict the inclusion criteria is.
Overall, a "ist of loosely associated topics" would be a list in which the subjects listed only have a minor or insignificant relationship with the main subject. As it stands right now, it is suggested that the items should not be "loosely associated" with one another, as opposed to the main subject. If you ask me, that would be the wrong way to go about things. First off, I have yet to see a list where the subjects are all related to one another, but do not relate to the main subject. Secondly, there are lists where supposedly unrelated subjects are related simply in the fact that they all relate to the main subject, which, in turn makes them much more closely associated. For example, one could argue that a List of James Bond villains would be loosely associated because they have nothing in common other than the fact that they're James Bond villains, but at the same, they are very closely associated because they are all James Bond villains. In short, how they relate to the main subject will always be more important than how they relate to one another.
Then we come around to the other problem, as to how we can objectively define how significantly one thing relates to another thing. If you ask me, it all comes around to verifiability. If you can attribute a source which recognizes that one subject has a close relationship to another subject, or that a book, periodical or other media outlet recognizes the two subjects as being closely related, then you almost can't go wrong, because an argument based on a reliable source is always more substantial than an article based on absolutely nothing.
So what I propose is this (1) change the wording to recognize that "loosely associated" refers to association with the main subject, not association with each other, (2) recognize that association is something thatcould (or should) be verified, and (3) think of some way to put an end to superfluous citation of WP:NOT#DIR, although I'm not sure that there's anything that can be done about that.
Now, requiring lists to cite association with the main topic may do more harm than good, as it would allow situations where subjects that are clearly associated would be eligible for deletion, simply because they do not have references to assert association. For that reason I'm not sure how good an idea it would be, but it is indeed a major step toward establishing a standard for confirmation of how associated two subjects are. Calgary 22:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
...where does one find the directory for Everything That Has Ever Existed? -- Chr.K. 12:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I've added two items to NOT#DIRECTORY, that come up regularly in AFD and would benefit the project to have a clear statement in WP:NOT. They cover gazeteer type directories, and directories that list arbitrary cross-categorizations. Hopefully the wording is self-explanatory. Both include suitable exceptions for those gazeteers and cross-categorizations that should have articles. FT2 ( Talk | email) 21:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I added a "see also" to Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) in criteria 1. I see this one quoted in AfDs from editors who do not seem to be familiar with the provisions of that stand-alone policy. I think the whole list policy may need overhaul given how rancorous those AfDs become (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of British Chinese people (second nomination) for example), but I think that making sure all editors are aware of the various core policies could be helpful in the meantime. :) -- Moonriddengirl 12:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)