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I know that Wikipedia isn't supposed to be censored or anything, but a few pages contain pictures and other content that may be, to put it lightly, inappropriate for younger viewers. I'm not suggesting that the pictures be removed or anything, but can't we make some sort of "mature content warning" template, or something else of the sort, in order to prevent people from stumbling upon inappropriate content? (In particular, erotic, sexual, and/or violent content would require some sort of warning.) -- Luigifan 17:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I would just want to do it to make sure someone else of given authority doesn't come in and do it for us, and then it would be much worse, like outright censorship. I think its important people put up images of relevance to articles like this one for Penny Arcade's "Legal Troubles" section [1] sorry I'm not sure how to link yet... it's important to see the picture but, well, that picture shouldn't be seen by everyone. TeH angRy nIgHtDescends 15:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOT#STATS says
However, as has been pointed out at some recent AfDs (eg here and here), Wikisource policy actually precludes lists of statistics or data. [2] [3]. While I agree with the rest of the paragraph, it seems to me that the sentence about Wikisource should be removed - unless anyone can think of another place to send primarily statistical articles...? Iain99 22:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I've recently been involved in cleaning up rugby league articles of the form [[Team Name 2007]] where editors are adding a "Possible Run-On Team" - i.e. a prediction of which players may or may not take the field in an upcoming game. This seems fairly rife within rugby league articles, and may be or may become a wider issue if not dealt with. In most cases these line-ups are entirely unverified, sometimes there is a (often out of date) news report cited which, in turn, makes a prediction about the possible starting line-up. While we all appreciate the efforts of editors to keep Wikipedia current, making predictions about weekly future sporting line-ups contravenes Wikipedia:Original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, WP:NOT and Wikipedia:News articles. In order to make this clearer, I have made the following addition to WP:NOT#CRYSTAL:
"Predicted line-ups of sporting teams or events on a week-by-week basis are inherently unverifiable, speculative and not individually notable. The line-up of a given team in a notable match may be reported after the match has taken place."
Deiz talk 10:56, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
That pretty well sums it up. Whether or not this is a new distinction or is simply a restatement of the existing "nots" (or some of them) it would be helpful to have these concepts (or result of the existing concepts) stated explicitly. They speak directly to an issue that has kept NOR tied up in discussion for years. -- Minasbeede 10:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to know if there's an official policy (or relevant discussion) about linking to thematic Flickr groups in the external links section of an article. I see many removals of links to flickr groups covering important events/topics per WP:NOT#SOCIAL. Whereas I understand the point of avoiding links to social networking sites in general or to individual photo streams with the sole aim of showing off, I don't see why links to selected flickr groups should be less worth than someone's website documenting an event/topic. Flickr groups are in many cases the richest source of images (often Common Content-licensed) available on the net on a given topic. Feedback appreciated -- DarTar 11:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
We need to add that wikipedia is not this as we've just had this occur: [4] and it seems we have to make sure its spelled out.-- Crossmr 14:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The page says sex with animals is illegal. I don't think thats true can anyone verify that? -Icewedge 21:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I've got an article where people are repeatedly violating WP:SOAP but have no idea who to complain to? It's just a never ending edit war with certain editors who, and I'm sorry for the personal attack, can not have any sense talked into them. Reply here or on my talk page, thanks -- 146.115.58.152 08:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
So, I get what Wikipedia is NOT. How about a what it IS article since that's a bit like trying to describe an orange by saying "an orange is NOT a horse. an orange is NOT a pool cue. an orange is NOT a watermelon." etc..
65.28.7.101 05:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Richard
So, I get what Wikipedia is NOT. How about a what it IS article since that's a bit like trying to describe an orange by saying "an orange is NOT a horse. an orange is NOT a pool cue. an orange is NOT a watermelon." etc..
65.28.7.101 05:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Richard
There is currently a dispute ( here) on whether footnotes are considered as "censorship".
Generally I prefer that all externally linked sources should go as footnotes in the " Notes" section. Thus this is what I have done. [5]
However, other users respectfully disagree, suggesting that putting such sources in the <ref> </ref> format amounts to censorship. The argument is that as footnotes in the Notes section, references are "less visible to our readers".
What do you guys think? Bless sins 04:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The Qur'an quotes are not sources. They are part of the content of the article. We have a general guideline about not using the qur'an as a primary source, and as such, qur'an quotes are part of the article content, as the secondary sources give the verses as part of the content. Thus it really isn't a reference. This content shouldn't be hidden as if it were references when it isn't.-- Sefringle Talk 01:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
A discussion concerning the intepretation and application of WP:NOT#DIR subsection 5 (cross categorization) is occurring on Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Lists of Ethnic Americans. All those interested are invited to join the discussion. Leuko 17:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have archived all the threads completed by August 31, with the exception of the discussion on Not#Trivia. Although the early threads are no longer active, there is still debate about this and it seems useful to keep the whole discussion here for now. The whole discussion of this topic can be moved to Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not/Trivia when it is complete. -- Flyguy649 talk contribs 20:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
There seem to be some subjects that just lend themselves to including "how-to"-ish information. See, e.g., Dog#Dangerous_substances, which includes statements such as "cooked bones should never be given to dogs". Or cover letter, which is almost completely given over to advice/tips. Where do we draw the line as to what is OK and what is an unacceptable how-to that Wikipedia is not? Basically what I'm asking is, Is there a way that a Wikipedian can know the standard prior to investing time in writing an article, as opposed to just hoping that people will agree with him on the AfD page that it's OK to include? Because as far as I can tell, it's just a subjective call that seems to be unevenly enforced. Captain Zyrain 20:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me if I missed the discussion of this, but I could not find anything in the recent archives. Two problems with this: 1)
WP:CREEP
WP:NOT#NEWS in a section that is already widely misinterpreted, and 2) tabloid is technically a physical format, although it is also associated with a journalistic style. I can see this leading to people saying that the way a newspaper is folded makes it an unreliable source--absurd of course, but there's lots of absurd interpretations of this policy. If the intent is to depreciate gossip or something specific like that, I would not object to a separate entry for this. But I think we need to be very careful about unintended consequences of changes to policy.
Dhaluza 20:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
How about "Wikipedia is not the newspaper. If you want to write about items in the news, do it here." Pretty hard to misunderstand that. Seraphimblade Talk to me 08:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The section should really be modified as it is somewhat confusing. To be honest, actual news articles with no lasting significance should be on Wikinews (such as a shooting that, while on CNN or FOX for a day as "breaking news", disappears after three days), but a shooting which is on the scale of Virginia Tech which has lasting significance will most likely be encyclopedic and should be on Wikipedia. Will ( talk) 08:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikiversity is (or will be) some of the things Wikipedia is Not. http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:What_is_Wikiversity%3F Discussions intended to educate or influence people could easily exist there and take a lot of pressure off of some of the more controversial talk page. Accurately labeled POV and pro and con analysis too detailed for a general encyclopedia might add value there. Is it appropriate to place a couple of links to Wikiversity within this policy to help Wikipedia participants take unwelcome activity off of Wikipedia and add value with it at Wikiversity or should these kind of links be on individual talk pages or within the template/boxes/placars that some Wikipedia users paste all over lengthy talk pages? Lazyquasar 10:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi.
I saw this:
"Primary (original) research such as proposing theories and solutions, original ideas, defining terms, coining new words, etcetera. If you have done primary research on a topic, publish your results in other venues such as peer-reviewed journals, other printed forms, or respected online sites, and Wikipedia will report about your work once it becomes part of accepted knowledge."
But even things that are part of "rejected knowledge" may be fair game for Wikipedia. For example, various discredited and outright false scientific theories like N-rays may be fair game. Hoaxes may be too. None of those things are "accepted", they are rejected.
If it means "the existence of the idea is well-known", this has less to do with original research and more to do with notability, significance, or importance (see also WP:FAME.). Original research does not have to do with attention, it has to do with the origin of the "research" or information in question, namely that it must not come from Wikipedia. If one publishes their crazy idea for a machine called a "Zarbler" on Wikipedia that is original research and not permitted since the user who put it there is considered part of the "entity" called "Wikipedia". If, on the other hand, one submits the idea to some respected publisher or other third-party source and it gets published, then that is it's source, not Wikipedia. However, whether or not it is game for inclusion then is then indeed contingent upon attention drawn to the subject, but this is beyond the scope of the no original research policy, and is instead an issue of notability. In addition third-party attention may be required to generate independent points of view so a neutral point of view article may be written that is also verifiable, however once again we've tread beyond the scope of the no original research policy. Hence this does not make sense in a section referring to original research concerns. mike4ty4 20:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but, I'm new here, and cen someone help me find an animal artist...-- Jessie caa S 02:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
"Trivia collections. Large sections of indirectly-related details should be avoided as they diminish articles' overall readability and utility." There needs to be a consensus on the definition of "trivia" or I'm going to remove this sentence. Saying "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection" is very different than "Large sections of indirectly-related details should be avoided." Also, there needs to be a consensus on the definition of "indirectly-related" or I'm going to remove this sentence. And why is it in the WP:NOT#INFO section? Policy flows from consensus, not the other way around. If this section has been included in WP:NOT because Jimmy Wales made a declaration [6], it needs to be ascertained whether that statement was descriptive or prescriptive. And, there needs to be a consensus here on the definition of "trivia." I have also asked the following question on WP:TRIVIA if anyone is interested: What's the definition of "trivia"? -- Pixelface 18:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
"No trivia collections" is too open-ended, and can be used to slaughter anything deemed trivial. Articles containing nothing but trivia lists are covered under WP:TRIVIA, since they're nothing but trivia sections. I have witnessed no consensus for any position stronger than this -- establish that one exists first.-- Father Goose 17:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
+
I say we eliminate the blurb on trivia sections. It's misleading, with the implication that WP:TRIVIA is official policy. Also, per the TFD for Template:Trivia, there's no consensus that "trivia sections" are inherently bad, though I personally don't like them. I won't remove the passage now, in the interest of further discussion. szyslak 11:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Why do people keep defending rubbish? There have been attempts to remove from WP:WAF the good and fully NPOV-based advice against succession boxes in fiction articles, there's the awful rewrite proposal at WP:FICT, and now likeminded individuals go on a rampage for their beloved trivia sections. Honestly folks, what's the matter? This is not a fansite. There are thousands of other, more appropriate outlets. Wikipedia has editorial standards, which it needs to distinguish itself as an encyclopedia. You should either embrace those standards and work on improving yourselves as editors, or you should leave. You should not however try to undermine the very basis of what Wikipedia is (and, not incidentally, is not) in order to turn it into something other than an encyclopedia. Sorry for the rant-like comment, but this kind of thing gets to me at times. — [ aldebaer] 14:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I personally support WP:TRIVIA; for the most part; trivia sections that amount to "lists of random facts" are just a poor form of writing. However, I do not support keeping WP:NOT#TRIVIA; it's a new addition to WP:NOT which at best had a temporal, local, and partial consensus at the time of its addition. It does nothing more than excerpt WP:TRIVIA and turn that guideline -- which has a shaky consensus itself -- into de facto policy. I've seen several editors, including Cheeser1 above, try to characterize WP:TRIVIA's advice as flowing from WP:NOT#TRIVIA, when the opposite is true.
WP:TRIVIA remains as valid as ever, but WP:NOT#TRIVIA is an attempt to boost that guideline beyond its mandate. I do not feel there is an actual consensus for inserting WP:TRIVIA in WP:NOT in this manner. WP:TRIVIA is a guideline -- a style guideline, not a content guideline, and certainly not a policy. Adding it to WP:NOT is inappropriate.-- Father Goose 20:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I favour trivia sections as they provide a lot of useful information in a small space, information that cannot always be put into the main body of an article without spoiling it. Mglovesfun 20:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I am going to go with keep the line, but reword it so that it doesn't say that trivia decreases utitility. That is completely false, trivia is occasionally useful and often interesting, but when in trivia sections, slightly out of place. Just stating that all trivia is not useful is much too general. reword it and I will be happy to leave the policy alone.-- Kyle( talk) 22:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Though there are trivia abuses, and the guideline is well-intentioned, it is often used and cited too broadly. "Trivia" and "popular culture" material are part and parcel of coverage of current events, popular music, etc., which are all pop culture phenomena in themselves. Showing the relationships between them and how they affect modern popular thought is a useful and important function. To truly understand the importance, say, of The Godfather, you have to know how it has played out. That article, incidentally, has a straight-laced, button-up trivia section that doesn't really do the film justice. Wikidemo 23:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I completely disagree with removing "Trivia" from WP:NOT. I mean.. come on.. I also would like to echo (and completely agree with) AldeBaer's comments above. What the heck is with this backlash of editors defending this horrible rubbish? -- Ned Scott 03:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Within a few days, with no attempt to gain consensus, Father Goose has removed material from this policy. I must ask him to stop, unless he can truly show that he has consensus for this change. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Some of us may not yet know that Wikipedia is not a trivia collection has been removed from WP:NOT.
Wikipedia:Avoid trivia is a newly proposed guideline intended to return WP:NOT#TRIVIA to Wikipedia. It is distinct from Wikipedia:Trivia sections in that it is a content policy, not a style policy. This guideline states that trivia may be removed.
While some editors will regard this guideline as obvious, even common sense, there is currently a tremendous amount of opposition to Wikipedia having limitations on trivia. As this proposal is specificly a content guideline, it may receive even greater opposition than Wikipedia:Avoid trivia has been subject to in recent months.
I could use specific suggestions and general feedback. A guideline (which this is proposed to be) does not need to contradict itself, so contradictory philosophies need not be introduced, but I would also be interested in feedback from people have problems with excluding trivia, especially if they have specific suggestions on how this guideline can be made better.
(This message is cross-posted in Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not.) / edg ☺ ★ 14:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of it being restored, can anyone explain why "WP:TRIVIA is not policy" has anything to do with WP:NOT? WP:TRIVIA is a style guideline. This is a content policy. "There was no consensus to upgrade WP:TRIVIA to policy"??? This is not WP:TRIVIA. This is content policy. The two are completely different. Furthermore, if there wasn't consensus, why has it become a part of the article that is only now being boldly removed? Last time I checked, when your bold edits are reverted, you WAIT FOR CONSENSUS, instead of hammering it down everyone's throat. If there's a stalemate, or a large discussion/change in progress, you're supposed to leave it in there until things settle. I'm talking to Father Goose and Equaczion here. -- Cheeser1 15:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
←The argument at WT:TRIVIA had nothing to do with whether or not ROC is a policy, and I wasn't pushing it there or anywhere else. I'm not trying to skirt the issue at all. You still haven't posted diffs to back up the claims you're making. I've already explained my actions, both here and in my edit summary. I'm sorry we couldn't work this out.
I think this strongly needs to be put on the page (if it's not already, I didn't look through every section), and it needs to be enforced. This was brought up several times in the past: and usually was forgotten, or just went to no consensus. Just some of the articles that are issues (and I would imagine there is more):
Since these lists exist, who is stopping people from listing game prices for each certain computer or console game? The information is "useful" to some, but frankly it's not important and it makes Wikipedia a price guide, and a directory just to find out what a current download costs. People shouldn't be coming to an encyclopedia to find out current prices of games, period. RobJ1981 06:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the current wording is enough. People are quoting bits and pieces above. In full the section says (disclaimer, I contributed much of this wording when the original was written):
"prices of a product should not be quoted in an article unless the price can be sourced and there is a justified reason for its mention. Examples of justified reasons include notable sales of rare collectors items, prices relating to discussion of a price war, and historical discussion of economic inflation. On the other hand, street prices are trivia that can vary widely from place to place and over time. Therefore, lists of products currently on sale should not quote street prices. In addition, Wikipedia is not a price guide to be used to compare the prices of competing products, or the prices of a single product across different countries or regions."
This gives some examples of exceptions, and the phrasing "includes" should make clear that other exceptions are expected and allowed. In this context, "street price" means everyday prices, including those on the internet. In all cases where changes in prices, or exceptional prices, are notable, there should be a way to source that. One warning though is that vague price ranges also need to be sourced. If the source is vague, fine. If the source is specific, we can convert specific prices into a range to avoid giving the appearance of advertising the price. If the article requires the specific price to be mentioned as part of making a wider point, that is fine. Merely mentioning the price as a piece of data in a table or infobox can be dodgy. If the only reason people need to know the price is as part of a "do I want to buy this" process, then the price is almost certainly not being presented in an encyclopedic way. If the price is being presented in a wider historical or economic context (with sources), then that is fine. Does that make things any clearer? Carcharoth 13:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
In response to yet another academic lecture that seriously asserts wikiality as an operative principle of Wikipedia, [12] I've revised a proposed addition to this guideline.
Wikipedia is not an experiment in consensus reality. Wikipedia's editors do not create philosophical truth when they revise articles. Instead, appropriate collaboration summarizes verifiable information from reliable sources in a neutral manner. The experts may be wrong and may need to be corrected, but as a tertiary source it is not an encyclopedia's function to spearhead new ideas.
In other words, the population of elephants does not triple just because some Wikipedian tries to say so. The elephants don't read Wikipedia, and if any human endeavor could inspire them to triple their population it would probably be reruns of steamy episodes from the Discovery Channel.
Additional citations to demonstrate why this is a necessary addition to policy are available at User:Durova/Wikipedia is not an experiment in consensus reality. Durova Charge! 23:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Too many reliable sources are advancing this as a serious argument. What I need when I contact them is something quotable within site policy. Here are some of the other more notable ones over the last year. Durova Charge! 07:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
When you say original thought, do you mean any new invention, a page on (the physics of)breaking a pencil, or anything that may seem too frivolous?-- Swing, Baby, Swing! 14:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
So we're in an argument (okay, I'm in an argument) on Talk:Accurizing regarding whether this is a guide rather than a descriptive article. It's already transwikied to WikiBooks once; since then, it's grown and despite having gotten less blatantly prescriptive it still basically covers the same ground.
So two questions:
I feel pretty strongly that this isn't an appropriate subject for an article. It basically describes a process from a means-to-an-end perspective, where the end (accuracy) isn't in itself a particularly notable subject for an article (it's an attribute of a weapon, that's all). I think it's teaching subject matter, and it's only getting deeper and more involved with every iteration. There's a whole page on how the trigger affects accuracy right now, for instance.
Thoughts? Chris Cunningham 14:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOT#OR point #3 about personal essays more properly belongs under WP:NOT#SOAPBOX, because it is more of an NPOV-grounded issue than a NOR one, is barely different from an opinion piece, and to the extent some such essay would not be personal opinion but actual research it is already covered by NOT#OR point #1. And WP:NOT#OR point #4, about using WP as a chat forum, and its WP:NOT#FORUM, WP:NOT#CHAT and WP:FORUM shortcuts more properly belong under WP:NOT#WEBSPACE because that entire section is about misusing WP as the wrong kind of service, and discussion forum kinds of behavior do not really relate to the subject of original thought in articles. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
In the Non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations policy, it says List of Jewish musicians is notable. Wikipedia policy does not need to give the impression of favortism and the following sentence should be removed from Non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations: "Whilst some cross-categorizations are notable (for example, List of Jewish musicians), a majority are not." -- Jreferee t/ c 22:30, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
←To FG: To go back to the policy example, I see that while List of Jewish American musicians was a sub-list of List of Jewish American entertainers, List of Jewish musicians is not; so the logic of it being notable as a sub-list of something doesn't apply here. I should also note that part of my objection to the list being notable is based on the feeling that, in my mind, its notability is based on the need to disprove a stereotype -- as if to say, "look at how many jewish musicians there are, who woulda thunk it." The same as having a List of Asian professional drivers. Not that I'm one to cite political correctness as a motivation to do anything, especially here, but I feel like that's the rationale that's really in the back of peoples' minds when they say a list like this is warranted; because otherwise I really can't see what other possible way this is notable.
Lists based on a shared, trivial-in-context quality. Wikipedia articles should not contain lists of (assume: notable) people or things sharing a quality unrelated to their respective notability. For example, an article about a town should not contain a list of people that happen to be born in that town. Of course, if a person “put the town on the map” (for example, Saint Paul and Tarsus) or history has validated the link between a town and a person (for example, Vermeer and Delft) then the town’s article may mention the particular fact, in the article’s narrative, without the use of the list format. Besides, categorization provides an easy way to find the people or things that share a certain quality.
It doesn't take a lot of scanning the talk pages of long-time, frequent editors to find statements such as the following one (not mine): "Wikipedia is bloated with articles of non-notable people and things. This is gradually changing Wikipedia in a de facto non-discriminate source of information (which is not its goal, see: WP:NOT) because every non-notable article can be used to justify other even less notable articles. I think Wikipedia should remain an encyclopedia." With a little bit of work, similar statements from 10 or 100 other editors can be found. In short, Wikipedia is drowning in trivia, in un-encyclopedic matter. Therefore my (now: proposed) guideline. (It beats me how the guideline could be seen as an " essay." Would be a strange essay.) I'll value comments to the contrary. Cheers. -- Iterator12n Talk 21:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, here are two self-evident statements, and one conclusion. 1. Wikipedia should only provide information that is notable. 2. Dependent on context, a list of notable subjects that share a common quality may not be notable information. 3. Wikipedia needs a guideline to steer editors away from the un-notable kind of list. (Which reminds me of a professorial joke: Professor is lecturing about some obscure subject, gets to a point where he says "It's evident that", stops, steps back, asks "Hmm, is it evident?", steps off the podium, disappears for 15 minutes, comes back, says "It's evident that" and continues his lecture without further explanation.) -- Iterator12n Talk 15:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Mac OS X Leopard will have a "Wikipedia Content Filter" which will "limit access to profanity in Wikipedia." (as part of parental controls) http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/300.html — Nricardo 23:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC) Nricardo 23:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure where this should go, but I feel like this is a good place to start with. It has occurred to me that certain editors are obstinately shoving massive and colorful genealogical templates into articles on royals, such as this one and particularly this one. A discussion was started here, and, as I am writing this, the only argument brought up in its favor was that "this is not a paper encyclopedia". To me, this sounds like "if I can write it, it stays", and a clear infringement of the "not a directory" guideline on this page. Furthermore, we already have articles on genealogical trees, and the relevant info (i.e.: about a quarter of each tree "planted" per article) can and should be turned into text. Views? Dahn 01:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
In these 2 edits, Stevage removed some significant blocks of our standards against dictionary entries. Stevage explained the edits with these comments in the edit summaries:
I have reverted those edits pending more discussion here. I agree that the existence of Glossaries in the category is inconsistent with the principles of WP:WINAD. But the fact that we are not yet living up to our ideals does not automatically mean that they are the wrong standards to which we should aspire. I feel strongly that the best long-term home for those glossaries is as a Wiktionary Appendices and that, over time, we should move the vast majority of those glossaries over to the correct project and make far greater use of cross-wiki links. Wiktionarians are far better suited and have much better tools to keep glossary entries up-to-date, properly formatted and suitably verified.
Stevage's comment that the "don't be a guide" part of the section is redundant with the "not a ... guidebook" section below is interesting and I want to think more about the possibility of consolidation. I disagree with the rest of his second comment, though. Our article on Leet should be an encyclopedia article about the slang and its cultural implications. It should have a few examples of the slang but it should definitely not be a guide about how to write it. If the article has more than a few examples, that's evidence of an editorial problem and a need for some pruning, not evidence that the rule here is wrong. Rossami (talk) 15:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Comments? Stevage 01:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with these sentiments. However, the central issue is these two bullet points. There are really only two options for each:
Any objections to me removing them? Since they both seem to be in error, the burden of argument is on the side of anyone wanting to retain them, rather than removing them. Stevage 14:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
So...I'm waiting for someone to mount a compelling argument that glossaries really are bad. Such an argument should explain the apparent contradiction with the existence of Category:Glossaries and suggest a resolution to that contradiction that is not effectively just waiting for Wikipedians to wake up and delete them all. In the absence of such an argument, may I suggest we remove this bullet point, or replace it with text explaining why glossaries are in fact acceptable? Stevage 03:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
My two cents: In a typical reference about a particular subject, one thing I really appreciate is having a clear list of terms and a brief summary definition of each one. It helps to understand the terms that are used to define the broader subject, and I believe having them in the article is appropriate. I am the sort of person that prefers concise lists of information to long, elaborate prose, since the former just presents me with the facts (and usually gives me a starting point for further research), while the latter can be difficult to decipher depending on how it was written.
So basically, I'm in favor of having an optional "Glossary of Terms" section, especially in medical articles where terms can be quite convoluted indeed. This is tempered by the need to keep Wikipedia from turning into another Wiktionary - we should not have indiscriminate articles just to define words that in themselves aren't notable. (That is what Wiktionary is for.) — KieferSkunk ( talk) — 05:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is not getting anywhere. Comments like "In some limited cases, I could see the need for a glossary page" are not helpful - the point is we already *have* glossary pages, and dozens of them, and there is absolutely no clamour to get rid of them. This isn't a proposal to suddenly create some new glossaries: this is a proposal to formally recognise the fact that they exist and are valuable. Here are some that we have:
They're not disambiguation pages. They're not accidents. They're not exceptions. They are glossaries. And they reflect current, accepted, standard practice. So there are exactly two possible courses of action here:
If you're arguing against #1, you're arguing for #2. Please explain exactly how you intend for us to enforce the policy, and whether you're anticipating a mass AfD of all glossary articles. The status quo is untenable. This goes for both Father Goose and KieferSkunk. Thank you. Stevage 04:47, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Bfigura asked, "Is there a reason you think we need to specify things further?" Yes. I got into a minor flamewar with 2005 regarding Glossary of poker terms. He insisted that the only items in the glossary should be terms actually used in Wikipedia, stating that the policies are "very clear". It turns out that they're not: there is not a single policy, guideline or even style guide that I could find to offer guidance on what should be included in or excluded from a glossary. How long should they be? Is slang ok? If this page isn't the best place to put such guidance, where should it go? Stevage 05:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Glossaries are useful for some purposes. Our guidelines should not say otherwise, but as Stevage pointed out, some discussion of when they are appropriate and what they might contain would be appropriate. Avoid instruction creep and the temptation to be over-specific, however. Gene Nygaard 14:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I finally found somewhere that said glossaries are ok: Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) (as of about a year ago [13]). That might be the place to put guidelines for glossaries. The objections on the grounds of "instruction creep" are spurious: instruction creep says "Don't make up rules that aren't needed." - it doesn't say "Don't make up rules." There is a need for some basic guidelines on how and when glossaries should be created, and what they should and shouldn't include.
Anyway, we all seem to be in some sort of agreement that popular consensus is that glossaries are acceptable in Wikipedia. Is there are reason not to fix this long-standing inconsistency, now? It's not like I'm proposing abandoning NPOV, after all :) Stevage 10:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I realize plot summaries should be brief, but they still sometimes have a couple of hundreds of words.
I think this article should clearly state what is the "official" guideline to plots when it comes to reliable sources. Currently it states nothing and in reality 99.9% of the plots in this site are original research (and surely without any footnotes). The reason first and foremost is that there are no reliable sources for, say, 400-700 words in length for movie plots for the majority of movies out there in the world.
If you think plots are unique in that they would almost always have to be an editor's (or editors') own work, this article should clearly state it.
If you think plots must have reliable sources like everything else, even if it means the eventual elimination of most of the plots in this site, this article should clearly state that then.
Thank you and please share your thoughts about this issue. - Kumarules 18:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
In response to the question by Kumarules, "Are reliable sources needed for plot summaries?", I think secondary sources are preferable but should not be mandatory. For a longer reply, I've looked at multiple policies and guidelines:
The policy on verifiability says "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." It says "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." I suppose one could say if something is not likely to be challenged, it doesn't need a source. But to say something is not likely to be challenged is speculation. I suppose you could write whatever you want and only cite sources *after* another editor has removed it, but I personally think that articles should be written from sources to begin with. Although, the Main Page says "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" not "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can collate based on previously published material." The introduction says "If you add new material to Wikipedia, please provide references." and links to the guideline on citing sources. The introduction also says "Facts that are unreferenced are routinely removed from the encyclopedia" and links to the policy on verifiability. The policy on verifiability says "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." Self-published sources like wikis are generally not acceptable as sources. Preferably, material added to an article should be previously published.
The policy on no original research says "Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought". Original research refers to "unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories." The policy on no original research says the policy on neutral point of view has "traditionally forbidden editors from inserting their own views into articles" The policy on no original research says "the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources." WP:NOR says sources may be divided into three categories: primary, secondary, and tertiary. Books, films, television programs, videogames, etc are primary sources. WP:NOR says "it is easy to misuse" primary sources. Anyone "who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source." In that way, I suppose plot summaries could be left to a general agreement by readers/editors who have consulted the primary source. Many editors like describing the plots of fictional works they've read/seen/etc. This helps Wikipedia grow and allowing them to write plot summaries encourages contribution. But doesn't this mean the editor is a secondary source? Editors can't cite themselves. How do you tell if an editor has actually consulted the primary source? I suppose you can tell by consulting the primary source yourself and looking at what an editor has written and agreeing or disagreeing with their description — or you could leave the fact-checking up to other editors who claim to have consulted the primary source or appear as if they have consulted the primary source. "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source." A section that relies on a primary source should only make descriptive claims and no interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. I think that a section that relies on a primary source may lead to frequent arguments by people with different points of view, and even arguments about whether a sentence is descriptive or explanatory.
The concept of verifiability was developed "as a way of ensuring the accuracy of articles by encouraging editors to cite sources", assuming "that the most notable views were easiest to document with sources." I can understand why plot summaries of fictional works may not need to strictly be written from secondary sources — we're not dealing with the biographies of living persons. The style guideline on citing sources says if material lacks a citation, consider putting a {{ fact}} tag after it or finding a reference yourself. That guideline says if material is doubtful but not harmful, use the {{ fact}} tag and remove the claim if no source is provided within a reasonable time. The policy on verifiability says "any edit lacking a source may be removed" and "do not leave unsourced information in articles for too long." The word "may" in that quote could mean "might", it could mean "editors have permission to do so." The phrase "too long" could mean different things to different people.
You could assume that all information in a plot summary is written based on the primary source (the fictional work itself), but the policy on verifiability says "any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published." Does that mean the fictional work has already been published or the plot description has already been published? The article for publishing says publishing is the activity of making information available for public view. Speaking of television programs, I suppose broadcasting is a form of publishing, and I suppose releasing films or games on optical disc is publishing, and publishing a book is obviously publishing. But I do not think that readers should have to watch an entire television program/read an entire book/watch an entire film/play an entire videogame to check if the material in the Wikipedia article is true. Asking readers to consult the primary source themselves may be a problem, because many fictional works are copyrighted and if readers must consult the primary source to verify an article is accurate, readers might have to buy a product. That is why I think secondary sources are preferable, although plot descriptions from secondary sources may be difficult to find for many fictional works. Readers might not have to buy a product if it's available from a library. Readers might not have to buy a product depending on their country's copyright laws, but since the Wikimedia Foundation is headquartered in Florida, articles must conform to U.S. copyright law. That is why hyperlinks to full versions of copyrighted works are not allowed in articles, even though they would help a reader check the primary source themselves. The policy on copyrights says "if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States...Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors." For editors in the United States, the Wikimedia Foundation article says "all contributions to the Wikimedia Foundation are tax deductible for U.S. federal income tax purposes" — I don't know if this just applies to fundraising donations or also edits. If a reader purchases a product in order to verify a Wikipedia article, is the purchase price of that product tax deductible as research? I doubt it.
The policy on non-free content says material must meet 10 criteria, 3 of which are: "Respect for commercial opportunities. Non-free content is not used in a manner that is likely to replace the original market role of the original copyrighted media.", "Minimal usage. As few non-free content uses as possible are included in each article and in Wikipedia as a whole.", "Previous publication. Non-free content must have been published outside Wikipedia." I don't think Wikipedia articles should be a *substitute* for a book or film. If an article retells the entire storyline of a book or film or videogame, that may be replacing "the original market role of the copyrighted media." This is especially true when it comes to short stories. Speaking of films, I suppose a description of the plot is "more free" than the actual video, but the guideline on writing about fiction says "Information about copyrighted fictional worlds and plots of works of fiction can be provided only under a claim of fair use, and Wikipedia's fair-use policy holds that "the amount of copyrighted work used should be as little as possible". Many works of fiction covered by Wikipedia are protected by copyright. Some works are sufficiently old that their copyright has expired, or the rights may have been released into the public domain." Perhaps this is why the style guidelines for films says plot summaries should not exceed 900 words. The guideline for television episodes suggests as a rough guide, "no more than ten words per minute of screen time." It also says "An actual episode may be used as a source for information about the episode and constitutes a primary source. Such use does not constitute original research if it is used to verify a fact." Facts can mean objective and verifiable observation. Fact can also be synonymous with truth. There are many theories of truth, but the policy on verifiability says "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth."
I think it needs to be ascertained whether in-depth plot details about copyrighted fictional works qualifies as fair use. In-depth plot details of fictional works also upset many readers. This has led to arguments at WT:SPOILER about the appropriateness of putting {{ spoiler}} tags under headings titled Plot, Plot summary, etc. Some editors assume that a heading named Plot implies spoilers are present, but many readers do not expect spoilers in articles and make no such assumption about headings. If one views the edit summaries in articles about fictional works, one can often see many readers upset with the level of detail a plot description contains. To say that ==Plot== sections do not need citations means all an editor has to do to keep an unsourced section in an article is rename the heading to ==Plot==. That may not fool anyone, but how a policy or guideline is worded is important. It could be also argued that an article with a plot summary and no critical commentary would not quality as fair use. The word "verifiable" might mean that material does not need a source immediately, but eventually, or it might mean that readers have the ability to check the primary source themselves (which could present a problem for out of print material).
I don't think we should start saying that certain sections of articles are exempt from policies. But I also don't think we should be bold and remove all unsourced plot summaries. Although consensus can change, policies and guidelines reflect consensus and common practice. If most plot summaries on Wikipedia are unsourced, I suppose you could say it's a common practice for editors to consult a fictional work and edit the article based on that primary source. When editors add to a plot summary in an article about a fictional work and provide no citations, it may *imply* that they are referring to the primary source. It can also indicate they are adding nonsense to the article. I think secondary sources in plot summaries are preferable — you simply leave the description to a published source and rewrite what they said or quote them. But making secondary sources mandatory is a problem when it is difficult to find secondary sources that describe a fictional work. Insisting on secondary source citations may also lead to the removal of unsourced "spoilers" which upset many readers, since most critics do not tell readers the entire storyline of fictional works. Citing secondary sources may also cut down on the " play-by-play" nature of some plot summaries, although I'm not aware of any film studio or book publisher suing the Wikimedia Foundation for copyright infringement for a long plot description in an article. The script of a film or the manuscript of a book is likely copyrighted, but I personally don't know how much rewriting is allowed by U.S. copyright law. The policy on copyrights says "Note that copyright law governs the creative expression of ideas, not the ideas or information themselves. Therefore, it is legal to read an encyclopedia article or other work, reformulate the concepts in your own words, and submit it to Wikipedia. However, it would still be unethical (but not illegal) to do so without citing the original as a reference." Plot summaries in articles about fictional works may imply an editor rewrote information in their own words. But the only people who would be able to tell if the information was rewritten are people who have consulted the primary source themselves, unless the text can be found with a search engine or if the text sounds like it was copied verbatim. The Wikipedia article for " paraphrase" says a paraphrase should be introduced by a disclaimer, and that a well-done paraphrase is not a summary, not plagiarism, and usually longer than the original.
WP:NOT says "A brief plot summary may sometimes be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic". But I have seen many plot descriptions on Wikipedia that I would not classify as "brief". I don't think Wikipedia exists to do your book report for you, but many readers like long plot descriptions. I think a problem with policies and guidelines in general is that of the 5.6 million registered users on the English-language Wikipedia, very very few users actually discuss policies and guidelines. Policies and guidelines often contradict, because they were written by different people, often at different times. The policy on copyrights says it's legal to rewrite information in your own words. So perhaps a 10,000-word description of a book's plot written by an editor is legal. The policy on what Wikipedia is not says a *brief* plot summary may be appropriate. So that 10,000-word description might get removed. When a person puts alot of time and effort into writing something and it's deleted, it can be upsetting. When editing a page, there is a note: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it." But deleting large plot descriptions may lead to valuable volunteers leaving the project.
If we want Wikipedia to be accurate, we should probably insist on secondary sources. But plot summaries that do not cite secondary sources can be brilliant, useful, interesting, etc. I suppose an editor risks wasting their time whenever they click the edit tab — anyone could change it or remove it and editors have all kinds of reasons for changing or removing content. I suppose all we can say is, your edits are more likely to remain in an article if people agree with what you wrote, or if you have more time to watch an article than the people who disagree with what you wrote. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and the spirit of any rules, policies, and guidelines should be followed. Long plot descriptions can be great. Extensive detail may upset some readers and may pose a fair use problem. Unsourced material raises the question of whether readers can trust Wikipedia. Perhaps the accuracy of plot summaries should be left to readers who have read the book/watched the film/played the videogame/etc, but I think secondary sources are preferable. I don't think we should impose a strict word limit on plot descriptions. Saying plot summaries don't need secondary sources means they are an experiment in consensus reality or " wikiality". The policy on consensus says "Policies and guidelines document communal consensus rather than creating it". Declarations on legal issues like copyrights can supersede consensus decisions on a page.
The policy on consensus also says "Consensus is typically reached as a natural product of the editing process; generally someone makes a change or addition to a page, and then everyone who reads the page has an opportunity to either leave the page as it is or change it. In essence silence implies consent if there is adequate exposure to the community." But how do you know if a topic has "adequate exposure"? As far as I know, there is no tool that currently measures page views or unique visitors to each revision of every article. One could look at a list of the most edited articles at stats.wikipedia.org, although it may be out of date. One could look at a list of unique editors in the last month at wikirage.com. One could look at a list of the top 100 most viewed articles. A counter which tells readers the number of people currently reading a page might be useful, a counter which shows users that have consulted the primary source and have read the entire article might also be useful, but those may put too much load on the servers. You can say, "This is Wikipedia, articles are going to contain inaccuracies." You can say, "This is Wikipedia, articles should be written from secondary sources." You can say, "inaccurate plot descriptions are really not a big deal." You can say, "fans will fix anything wrong in the article." You can say, "Wikipedia is not a fansite and plot summaries attract cruft." I guess we can put plot summaries to the "eyeballs test", but citing secondary sources avoids alot of potential problems, so I think secondary sources are preferable. Now excuse me while I take a wikibreak and go to sleep and have a wikinightmare. -- Pixelface 19:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I see a lot of articles on Wikipedia stating something like, Criticism to Windows Criticism to Da Vinci code, Criticism of Coca-cola etc., etc., etc., I agree that, we should have a NPOV. But so long as the criticisms are a part of the main topic.,it's fine. Does an article that speaks only about Criticisms satisfy the "notability" criteria of an encyclopedia? Do you think that there can be reliable citations for such articles (esp if it focusses only on criticisms)?
there are always people who hates coca-cola, who hates windows, who hates Da-vinci code. But is Wikipedia a place to argue that? Can some one think on this? i think we should have a rule like, Wikipedia is NOT a "critical analyzer" or something like that... Criticisms should only be in a section of the main article. For example, the article Da Vinci code can have a critic's remark. But I don't think(My POV) this is a notable article, even if it has *valid* citations. Just wanted to know others consensus Mugunth 18:20, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
You may want to read WP:CFORK, in particular, Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles, as well as WP:SUMMARY, in which the issues related to POV forks are explained. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's a radical thought: What other encyclopaedia has lists? What is the point of lists in Wikipedia? Can't an agglomeration of items which have something significant in common be better explained in an encyclopaedic article on the subject? Such as State Parties of the International Criminal Court rather than List of State Parties to the International Criminal Court? If the items themselves are sufficiently notable it could be covered by a Category instead. List of groups referred to as cults could become Groups referred to as cults, which could perhaps have sections on the historic usage and context of the term, as befitting an encyclopaedia, as well as the actual list itself. Hence the focus would transfer away from the heated talk pages towards the actual article itself. Could this idea take hold? AndrewRT( Talk) 22:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
To answer the original question "What other encyclopaedia has lists?", my Aschehoug general purpose paper encyclopedia has, among other things, a full list of Shakespeare plays and Ibsen plays near the articles on William Shakespeare and Henrik Ibsen. They are boxed in as a separate section, outside the main body of the text. This is pretty much the same as us making a "list of..." article, although we alphabetize it differently. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
I know that Wikipedia isn't supposed to be censored or anything, but a few pages contain pictures and other content that may be, to put it lightly, inappropriate for younger viewers. I'm not suggesting that the pictures be removed or anything, but can't we make some sort of "mature content warning" template, or something else of the sort, in order to prevent people from stumbling upon inappropriate content? (In particular, erotic, sexual, and/or violent content would require some sort of warning.) -- Luigifan 17:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I would just want to do it to make sure someone else of given authority doesn't come in and do it for us, and then it would be much worse, like outright censorship. I think its important people put up images of relevance to articles like this one for Penny Arcade's "Legal Troubles" section [1] sorry I'm not sure how to link yet... it's important to see the picture but, well, that picture shouldn't be seen by everyone. TeH angRy nIgHtDescends 15:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOT#STATS says
However, as has been pointed out at some recent AfDs (eg here and here), Wikisource policy actually precludes lists of statistics or data. [2] [3]. While I agree with the rest of the paragraph, it seems to me that the sentence about Wikisource should be removed - unless anyone can think of another place to send primarily statistical articles...? Iain99 22:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I've recently been involved in cleaning up rugby league articles of the form [[Team Name 2007]] where editors are adding a "Possible Run-On Team" - i.e. a prediction of which players may or may not take the field in an upcoming game. This seems fairly rife within rugby league articles, and may be or may become a wider issue if not dealt with. In most cases these line-ups are entirely unverified, sometimes there is a (often out of date) news report cited which, in turn, makes a prediction about the possible starting line-up. While we all appreciate the efforts of editors to keep Wikipedia current, making predictions about weekly future sporting line-ups contravenes Wikipedia:Original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, WP:NOT and Wikipedia:News articles. In order to make this clearer, I have made the following addition to WP:NOT#CRYSTAL:
"Predicted line-ups of sporting teams or events on a week-by-week basis are inherently unverifiable, speculative and not individually notable. The line-up of a given team in a notable match may be reported after the match has taken place."
Deiz talk 10:56, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
That pretty well sums it up. Whether or not this is a new distinction or is simply a restatement of the existing "nots" (or some of them) it would be helpful to have these concepts (or result of the existing concepts) stated explicitly. They speak directly to an issue that has kept NOR tied up in discussion for years. -- Minasbeede 10:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to know if there's an official policy (or relevant discussion) about linking to thematic Flickr groups in the external links section of an article. I see many removals of links to flickr groups covering important events/topics per WP:NOT#SOCIAL. Whereas I understand the point of avoiding links to social networking sites in general or to individual photo streams with the sole aim of showing off, I don't see why links to selected flickr groups should be less worth than someone's website documenting an event/topic. Flickr groups are in many cases the richest source of images (often Common Content-licensed) available on the net on a given topic. Feedback appreciated -- DarTar 11:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
We need to add that wikipedia is not this as we've just had this occur: [4] and it seems we have to make sure its spelled out.-- Crossmr 14:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The page says sex with animals is illegal. I don't think thats true can anyone verify that? -Icewedge 21:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I've got an article where people are repeatedly violating WP:SOAP but have no idea who to complain to? It's just a never ending edit war with certain editors who, and I'm sorry for the personal attack, can not have any sense talked into them. Reply here or on my talk page, thanks -- 146.115.58.152 08:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
So, I get what Wikipedia is NOT. How about a what it IS article since that's a bit like trying to describe an orange by saying "an orange is NOT a horse. an orange is NOT a pool cue. an orange is NOT a watermelon." etc..
65.28.7.101 05:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Richard
So, I get what Wikipedia is NOT. How about a what it IS article since that's a bit like trying to describe an orange by saying "an orange is NOT a horse. an orange is NOT a pool cue. an orange is NOT a watermelon." etc..
65.28.7.101 05:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Richard
There is currently a dispute ( here) on whether footnotes are considered as "censorship".
Generally I prefer that all externally linked sources should go as footnotes in the " Notes" section. Thus this is what I have done. [5]
However, other users respectfully disagree, suggesting that putting such sources in the <ref> </ref> format amounts to censorship. The argument is that as footnotes in the Notes section, references are "less visible to our readers".
What do you guys think? Bless sins 04:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The Qur'an quotes are not sources. They are part of the content of the article. We have a general guideline about not using the qur'an as a primary source, and as such, qur'an quotes are part of the article content, as the secondary sources give the verses as part of the content. Thus it really isn't a reference. This content shouldn't be hidden as if it were references when it isn't.-- Sefringle Talk 01:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
A discussion concerning the intepretation and application of WP:NOT#DIR subsection 5 (cross categorization) is occurring on Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Lists of Ethnic Americans. All those interested are invited to join the discussion. Leuko 17:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have archived all the threads completed by August 31, with the exception of the discussion on Not#Trivia. Although the early threads are no longer active, there is still debate about this and it seems useful to keep the whole discussion here for now. The whole discussion of this topic can be moved to Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not/Trivia when it is complete. -- Flyguy649 talk contribs 20:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
There seem to be some subjects that just lend themselves to including "how-to"-ish information. See, e.g., Dog#Dangerous_substances, which includes statements such as "cooked bones should never be given to dogs". Or cover letter, which is almost completely given over to advice/tips. Where do we draw the line as to what is OK and what is an unacceptable how-to that Wikipedia is not? Basically what I'm asking is, Is there a way that a Wikipedian can know the standard prior to investing time in writing an article, as opposed to just hoping that people will agree with him on the AfD page that it's OK to include? Because as far as I can tell, it's just a subjective call that seems to be unevenly enforced. Captain Zyrain 20:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me if I missed the discussion of this, but I could not find anything in the recent archives. Two problems with this: 1)
WP:CREEP
WP:NOT#NEWS in a section that is already widely misinterpreted, and 2) tabloid is technically a physical format, although it is also associated with a journalistic style. I can see this leading to people saying that the way a newspaper is folded makes it an unreliable source--absurd of course, but there's lots of absurd interpretations of this policy. If the intent is to depreciate gossip or something specific like that, I would not object to a separate entry for this. But I think we need to be very careful about unintended consequences of changes to policy.
Dhaluza 20:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
How about "Wikipedia is not the newspaper. If you want to write about items in the news, do it here." Pretty hard to misunderstand that. Seraphimblade Talk to me 08:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The section should really be modified as it is somewhat confusing. To be honest, actual news articles with no lasting significance should be on Wikinews (such as a shooting that, while on CNN or FOX for a day as "breaking news", disappears after three days), but a shooting which is on the scale of Virginia Tech which has lasting significance will most likely be encyclopedic and should be on Wikipedia. Will ( talk) 08:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikiversity is (or will be) some of the things Wikipedia is Not. http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:What_is_Wikiversity%3F Discussions intended to educate or influence people could easily exist there and take a lot of pressure off of some of the more controversial talk page. Accurately labeled POV and pro and con analysis too detailed for a general encyclopedia might add value there. Is it appropriate to place a couple of links to Wikiversity within this policy to help Wikipedia participants take unwelcome activity off of Wikipedia and add value with it at Wikiversity or should these kind of links be on individual talk pages or within the template/boxes/placars that some Wikipedia users paste all over lengthy talk pages? Lazyquasar 10:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi.
I saw this:
"Primary (original) research such as proposing theories and solutions, original ideas, defining terms, coining new words, etcetera. If you have done primary research on a topic, publish your results in other venues such as peer-reviewed journals, other printed forms, or respected online sites, and Wikipedia will report about your work once it becomes part of accepted knowledge."
But even things that are part of "rejected knowledge" may be fair game for Wikipedia. For example, various discredited and outright false scientific theories like N-rays may be fair game. Hoaxes may be too. None of those things are "accepted", they are rejected.
If it means "the existence of the idea is well-known", this has less to do with original research and more to do with notability, significance, or importance (see also WP:FAME.). Original research does not have to do with attention, it has to do with the origin of the "research" or information in question, namely that it must not come from Wikipedia. If one publishes their crazy idea for a machine called a "Zarbler" on Wikipedia that is original research and not permitted since the user who put it there is considered part of the "entity" called "Wikipedia". If, on the other hand, one submits the idea to some respected publisher or other third-party source and it gets published, then that is it's source, not Wikipedia. However, whether or not it is game for inclusion then is then indeed contingent upon attention drawn to the subject, but this is beyond the scope of the no original research policy, and is instead an issue of notability. In addition third-party attention may be required to generate independent points of view so a neutral point of view article may be written that is also verifiable, however once again we've tread beyond the scope of the no original research policy. Hence this does not make sense in a section referring to original research concerns. mike4ty4 20:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but, I'm new here, and cen someone help me find an animal artist...-- Jessie caa S 02:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
"Trivia collections. Large sections of indirectly-related details should be avoided as they diminish articles' overall readability and utility." There needs to be a consensus on the definition of "trivia" or I'm going to remove this sentence. Saying "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection" is very different than "Large sections of indirectly-related details should be avoided." Also, there needs to be a consensus on the definition of "indirectly-related" or I'm going to remove this sentence. And why is it in the WP:NOT#INFO section? Policy flows from consensus, not the other way around. If this section has been included in WP:NOT because Jimmy Wales made a declaration [6], it needs to be ascertained whether that statement was descriptive or prescriptive. And, there needs to be a consensus here on the definition of "trivia." I have also asked the following question on WP:TRIVIA if anyone is interested: What's the definition of "trivia"? -- Pixelface 18:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
"No trivia collections" is too open-ended, and can be used to slaughter anything deemed trivial. Articles containing nothing but trivia lists are covered under WP:TRIVIA, since they're nothing but trivia sections. I have witnessed no consensus for any position stronger than this -- establish that one exists first.-- Father Goose 17:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
+
I say we eliminate the blurb on trivia sections. It's misleading, with the implication that WP:TRIVIA is official policy. Also, per the TFD for Template:Trivia, there's no consensus that "trivia sections" are inherently bad, though I personally don't like them. I won't remove the passage now, in the interest of further discussion. szyslak 11:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Why do people keep defending rubbish? There have been attempts to remove from WP:WAF the good and fully NPOV-based advice against succession boxes in fiction articles, there's the awful rewrite proposal at WP:FICT, and now likeminded individuals go on a rampage for their beloved trivia sections. Honestly folks, what's the matter? This is not a fansite. There are thousands of other, more appropriate outlets. Wikipedia has editorial standards, which it needs to distinguish itself as an encyclopedia. You should either embrace those standards and work on improving yourselves as editors, or you should leave. You should not however try to undermine the very basis of what Wikipedia is (and, not incidentally, is not) in order to turn it into something other than an encyclopedia. Sorry for the rant-like comment, but this kind of thing gets to me at times. — [ aldebaer] 14:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I personally support WP:TRIVIA; for the most part; trivia sections that amount to "lists of random facts" are just a poor form of writing. However, I do not support keeping WP:NOT#TRIVIA; it's a new addition to WP:NOT which at best had a temporal, local, and partial consensus at the time of its addition. It does nothing more than excerpt WP:TRIVIA and turn that guideline -- which has a shaky consensus itself -- into de facto policy. I've seen several editors, including Cheeser1 above, try to characterize WP:TRIVIA's advice as flowing from WP:NOT#TRIVIA, when the opposite is true.
WP:TRIVIA remains as valid as ever, but WP:NOT#TRIVIA is an attempt to boost that guideline beyond its mandate. I do not feel there is an actual consensus for inserting WP:TRIVIA in WP:NOT in this manner. WP:TRIVIA is a guideline -- a style guideline, not a content guideline, and certainly not a policy. Adding it to WP:NOT is inappropriate.-- Father Goose 20:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I favour trivia sections as they provide a lot of useful information in a small space, information that cannot always be put into the main body of an article without spoiling it. Mglovesfun 20:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I am going to go with keep the line, but reword it so that it doesn't say that trivia decreases utitility. That is completely false, trivia is occasionally useful and often interesting, but when in trivia sections, slightly out of place. Just stating that all trivia is not useful is much too general. reword it and I will be happy to leave the policy alone.-- Kyle( talk) 22:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Though there are trivia abuses, and the guideline is well-intentioned, it is often used and cited too broadly. "Trivia" and "popular culture" material are part and parcel of coverage of current events, popular music, etc., which are all pop culture phenomena in themselves. Showing the relationships between them and how they affect modern popular thought is a useful and important function. To truly understand the importance, say, of The Godfather, you have to know how it has played out. That article, incidentally, has a straight-laced, button-up trivia section that doesn't really do the film justice. Wikidemo 23:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I completely disagree with removing "Trivia" from WP:NOT. I mean.. come on.. I also would like to echo (and completely agree with) AldeBaer's comments above. What the heck is with this backlash of editors defending this horrible rubbish? -- Ned Scott 03:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Within a few days, with no attempt to gain consensus, Father Goose has removed material from this policy. I must ask him to stop, unless he can truly show that he has consensus for this change. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Some of us may not yet know that Wikipedia is not a trivia collection has been removed from WP:NOT.
Wikipedia:Avoid trivia is a newly proposed guideline intended to return WP:NOT#TRIVIA to Wikipedia. It is distinct from Wikipedia:Trivia sections in that it is a content policy, not a style policy. This guideline states that trivia may be removed.
While some editors will regard this guideline as obvious, even common sense, there is currently a tremendous amount of opposition to Wikipedia having limitations on trivia. As this proposal is specificly a content guideline, it may receive even greater opposition than Wikipedia:Avoid trivia has been subject to in recent months.
I could use specific suggestions and general feedback. A guideline (which this is proposed to be) does not need to contradict itself, so contradictory philosophies need not be introduced, but I would also be interested in feedback from people have problems with excluding trivia, especially if they have specific suggestions on how this guideline can be made better.
(This message is cross-posted in Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not.) / edg ☺ ★ 14:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of it being restored, can anyone explain why "WP:TRIVIA is not policy" has anything to do with WP:NOT? WP:TRIVIA is a style guideline. This is a content policy. "There was no consensus to upgrade WP:TRIVIA to policy"??? This is not WP:TRIVIA. This is content policy. The two are completely different. Furthermore, if there wasn't consensus, why has it become a part of the article that is only now being boldly removed? Last time I checked, when your bold edits are reverted, you WAIT FOR CONSENSUS, instead of hammering it down everyone's throat. If there's a stalemate, or a large discussion/change in progress, you're supposed to leave it in there until things settle. I'm talking to Father Goose and Equaczion here. -- Cheeser1 15:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
←The argument at WT:TRIVIA had nothing to do with whether or not ROC is a policy, and I wasn't pushing it there or anywhere else. I'm not trying to skirt the issue at all. You still haven't posted diffs to back up the claims you're making. I've already explained my actions, both here and in my edit summary. I'm sorry we couldn't work this out.
I think this strongly needs to be put on the page (if it's not already, I didn't look through every section), and it needs to be enforced. This was brought up several times in the past: and usually was forgotten, or just went to no consensus. Just some of the articles that are issues (and I would imagine there is more):
Since these lists exist, who is stopping people from listing game prices for each certain computer or console game? The information is "useful" to some, but frankly it's not important and it makes Wikipedia a price guide, and a directory just to find out what a current download costs. People shouldn't be coming to an encyclopedia to find out current prices of games, period. RobJ1981 06:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the current wording is enough. People are quoting bits and pieces above. In full the section says (disclaimer, I contributed much of this wording when the original was written):
"prices of a product should not be quoted in an article unless the price can be sourced and there is a justified reason for its mention. Examples of justified reasons include notable sales of rare collectors items, prices relating to discussion of a price war, and historical discussion of economic inflation. On the other hand, street prices are trivia that can vary widely from place to place and over time. Therefore, lists of products currently on sale should not quote street prices. In addition, Wikipedia is not a price guide to be used to compare the prices of competing products, or the prices of a single product across different countries or regions."
This gives some examples of exceptions, and the phrasing "includes" should make clear that other exceptions are expected and allowed. In this context, "street price" means everyday prices, including those on the internet. In all cases where changes in prices, or exceptional prices, are notable, there should be a way to source that. One warning though is that vague price ranges also need to be sourced. If the source is vague, fine. If the source is specific, we can convert specific prices into a range to avoid giving the appearance of advertising the price. If the article requires the specific price to be mentioned as part of making a wider point, that is fine. Merely mentioning the price as a piece of data in a table or infobox can be dodgy. If the only reason people need to know the price is as part of a "do I want to buy this" process, then the price is almost certainly not being presented in an encyclopedic way. If the price is being presented in a wider historical or economic context (with sources), then that is fine. Does that make things any clearer? Carcharoth 13:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
In response to yet another academic lecture that seriously asserts wikiality as an operative principle of Wikipedia, [12] I've revised a proposed addition to this guideline.
Wikipedia is not an experiment in consensus reality. Wikipedia's editors do not create philosophical truth when they revise articles. Instead, appropriate collaboration summarizes verifiable information from reliable sources in a neutral manner. The experts may be wrong and may need to be corrected, but as a tertiary source it is not an encyclopedia's function to spearhead new ideas.
In other words, the population of elephants does not triple just because some Wikipedian tries to say so. The elephants don't read Wikipedia, and if any human endeavor could inspire them to triple their population it would probably be reruns of steamy episodes from the Discovery Channel.
Additional citations to demonstrate why this is a necessary addition to policy are available at User:Durova/Wikipedia is not an experiment in consensus reality. Durova Charge! 23:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Too many reliable sources are advancing this as a serious argument. What I need when I contact them is something quotable within site policy. Here are some of the other more notable ones over the last year. Durova Charge! 07:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
When you say original thought, do you mean any new invention, a page on (the physics of)breaking a pencil, or anything that may seem too frivolous?-- Swing, Baby, Swing! 14:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
So we're in an argument (okay, I'm in an argument) on Talk:Accurizing regarding whether this is a guide rather than a descriptive article. It's already transwikied to WikiBooks once; since then, it's grown and despite having gotten less blatantly prescriptive it still basically covers the same ground.
So two questions:
I feel pretty strongly that this isn't an appropriate subject for an article. It basically describes a process from a means-to-an-end perspective, where the end (accuracy) isn't in itself a particularly notable subject for an article (it's an attribute of a weapon, that's all). I think it's teaching subject matter, and it's only getting deeper and more involved with every iteration. There's a whole page on how the trigger affects accuracy right now, for instance.
Thoughts? Chris Cunningham 14:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOT#OR point #3 about personal essays more properly belongs under WP:NOT#SOAPBOX, because it is more of an NPOV-grounded issue than a NOR one, is barely different from an opinion piece, and to the extent some such essay would not be personal opinion but actual research it is already covered by NOT#OR point #1. And WP:NOT#OR point #4, about using WP as a chat forum, and its WP:NOT#FORUM, WP:NOT#CHAT and WP:FORUM shortcuts more properly belong under WP:NOT#WEBSPACE because that entire section is about misusing WP as the wrong kind of service, and discussion forum kinds of behavior do not really relate to the subject of original thought in articles. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
In the Non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations policy, it says List of Jewish musicians is notable. Wikipedia policy does not need to give the impression of favortism and the following sentence should be removed from Non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations: "Whilst some cross-categorizations are notable (for example, List of Jewish musicians), a majority are not." -- Jreferee t/ c 22:30, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
←To FG: To go back to the policy example, I see that while List of Jewish American musicians was a sub-list of List of Jewish American entertainers, List of Jewish musicians is not; so the logic of it being notable as a sub-list of something doesn't apply here. I should also note that part of my objection to the list being notable is based on the feeling that, in my mind, its notability is based on the need to disprove a stereotype -- as if to say, "look at how many jewish musicians there are, who woulda thunk it." The same as having a List of Asian professional drivers. Not that I'm one to cite political correctness as a motivation to do anything, especially here, but I feel like that's the rationale that's really in the back of peoples' minds when they say a list like this is warranted; because otherwise I really can't see what other possible way this is notable.
Lists based on a shared, trivial-in-context quality. Wikipedia articles should not contain lists of (assume: notable) people or things sharing a quality unrelated to their respective notability. For example, an article about a town should not contain a list of people that happen to be born in that town. Of course, if a person “put the town on the map” (for example, Saint Paul and Tarsus) or history has validated the link between a town and a person (for example, Vermeer and Delft) then the town’s article may mention the particular fact, in the article’s narrative, without the use of the list format. Besides, categorization provides an easy way to find the people or things that share a certain quality.
It doesn't take a lot of scanning the talk pages of long-time, frequent editors to find statements such as the following one (not mine): "Wikipedia is bloated with articles of non-notable people and things. This is gradually changing Wikipedia in a de facto non-discriminate source of information (which is not its goal, see: WP:NOT) because every non-notable article can be used to justify other even less notable articles. I think Wikipedia should remain an encyclopedia." With a little bit of work, similar statements from 10 or 100 other editors can be found. In short, Wikipedia is drowning in trivia, in un-encyclopedic matter. Therefore my (now: proposed) guideline. (It beats me how the guideline could be seen as an " essay." Would be a strange essay.) I'll value comments to the contrary. Cheers. -- Iterator12n Talk 21:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, here are two self-evident statements, and one conclusion. 1. Wikipedia should only provide information that is notable. 2. Dependent on context, a list of notable subjects that share a common quality may not be notable information. 3. Wikipedia needs a guideline to steer editors away from the un-notable kind of list. (Which reminds me of a professorial joke: Professor is lecturing about some obscure subject, gets to a point where he says "It's evident that", stops, steps back, asks "Hmm, is it evident?", steps off the podium, disappears for 15 minutes, comes back, says "It's evident that" and continues his lecture without further explanation.) -- Iterator12n Talk 15:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Mac OS X Leopard will have a "Wikipedia Content Filter" which will "limit access to profanity in Wikipedia." (as part of parental controls) http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/300.html — Nricardo 23:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC) Nricardo 23:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure where this should go, but I feel like this is a good place to start with. It has occurred to me that certain editors are obstinately shoving massive and colorful genealogical templates into articles on royals, such as this one and particularly this one. A discussion was started here, and, as I am writing this, the only argument brought up in its favor was that "this is not a paper encyclopedia". To me, this sounds like "if I can write it, it stays", and a clear infringement of the "not a directory" guideline on this page. Furthermore, we already have articles on genealogical trees, and the relevant info (i.e.: about a quarter of each tree "planted" per article) can and should be turned into text. Views? Dahn 01:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
In these 2 edits, Stevage removed some significant blocks of our standards against dictionary entries. Stevage explained the edits with these comments in the edit summaries:
I have reverted those edits pending more discussion here. I agree that the existence of Glossaries in the category is inconsistent with the principles of WP:WINAD. But the fact that we are not yet living up to our ideals does not automatically mean that they are the wrong standards to which we should aspire. I feel strongly that the best long-term home for those glossaries is as a Wiktionary Appendices and that, over time, we should move the vast majority of those glossaries over to the correct project and make far greater use of cross-wiki links. Wiktionarians are far better suited and have much better tools to keep glossary entries up-to-date, properly formatted and suitably verified.
Stevage's comment that the "don't be a guide" part of the section is redundant with the "not a ... guidebook" section below is interesting and I want to think more about the possibility of consolidation. I disagree with the rest of his second comment, though. Our article on Leet should be an encyclopedia article about the slang and its cultural implications. It should have a few examples of the slang but it should definitely not be a guide about how to write it. If the article has more than a few examples, that's evidence of an editorial problem and a need for some pruning, not evidence that the rule here is wrong. Rossami (talk) 15:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Comments? Stevage 01:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with these sentiments. However, the central issue is these two bullet points. There are really only two options for each:
Any objections to me removing them? Since they both seem to be in error, the burden of argument is on the side of anyone wanting to retain them, rather than removing them. Stevage 14:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
So...I'm waiting for someone to mount a compelling argument that glossaries really are bad. Such an argument should explain the apparent contradiction with the existence of Category:Glossaries and suggest a resolution to that contradiction that is not effectively just waiting for Wikipedians to wake up and delete them all. In the absence of such an argument, may I suggest we remove this bullet point, or replace it with text explaining why glossaries are in fact acceptable? Stevage 03:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
My two cents: In a typical reference about a particular subject, one thing I really appreciate is having a clear list of terms and a brief summary definition of each one. It helps to understand the terms that are used to define the broader subject, and I believe having them in the article is appropriate. I am the sort of person that prefers concise lists of information to long, elaborate prose, since the former just presents me with the facts (and usually gives me a starting point for further research), while the latter can be difficult to decipher depending on how it was written.
So basically, I'm in favor of having an optional "Glossary of Terms" section, especially in medical articles where terms can be quite convoluted indeed. This is tempered by the need to keep Wikipedia from turning into another Wiktionary - we should not have indiscriminate articles just to define words that in themselves aren't notable. (That is what Wiktionary is for.) — KieferSkunk ( talk) — 05:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is not getting anywhere. Comments like "In some limited cases, I could see the need for a glossary page" are not helpful - the point is we already *have* glossary pages, and dozens of them, and there is absolutely no clamour to get rid of them. This isn't a proposal to suddenly create some new glossaries: this is a proposal to formally recognise the fact that they exist and are valuable. Here are some that we have:
They're not disambiguation pages. They're not accidents. They're not exceptions. They are glossaries. And they reflect current, accepted, standard practice. So there are exactly two possible courses of action here:
If you're arguing against #1, you're arguing for #2. Please explain exactly how you intend for us to enforce the policy, and whether you're anticipating a mass AfD of all glossary articles. The status quo is untenable. This goes for both Father Goose and KieferSkunk. Thank you. Stevage 04:47, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Bfigura asked, "Is there a reason you think we need to specify things further?" Yes. I got into a minor flamewar with 2005 regarding Glossary of poker terms. He insisted that the only items in the glossary should be terms actually used in Wikipedia, stating that the policies are "very clear". It turns out that they're not: there is not a single policy, guideline or even style guide that I could find to offer guidance on what should be included in or excluded from a glossary. How long should they be? Is slang ok? If this page isn't the best place to put such guidance, where should it go? Stevage 05:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Glossaries are useful for some purposes. Our guidelines should not say otherwise, but as Stevage pointed out, some discussion of when they are appropriate and what they might contain would be appropriate. Avoid instruction creep and the temptation to be over-specific, however. Gene Nygaard 14:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I finally found somewhere that said glossaries are ok: Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) (as of about a year ago [13]). That might be the place to put guidelines for glossaries. The objections on the grounds of "instruction creep" are spurious: instruction creep says "Don't make up rules that aren't needed." - it doesn't say "Don't make up rules." There is a need for some basic guidelines on how and when glossaries should be created, and what they should and shouldn't include.
Anyway, we all seem to be in some sort of agreement that popular consensus is that glossaries are acceptable in Wikipedia. Is there are reason not to fix this long-standing inconsistency, now? It's not like I'm proposing abandoning NPOV, after all :) Stevage 10:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I realize plot summaries should be brief, but they still sometimes have a couple of hundreds of words.
I think this article should clearly state what is the "official" guideline to plots when it comes to reliable sources. Currently it states nothing and in reality 99.9% of the plots in this site are original research (and surely without any footnotes). The reason first and foremost is that there are no reliable sources for, say, 400-700 words in length for movie plots for the majority of movies out there in the world.
If you think plots are unique in that they would almost always have to be an editor's (or editors') own work, this article should clearly state it.
If you think plots must have reliable sources like everything else, even if it means the eventual elimination of most of the plots in this site, this article should clearly state that then.
Thank you and please share your thoughts about this issue. - Kumarules 18:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
In response to the question by Kumarules, "Are reliable sources needed for plot summaries?", I think secondary sources are preferable but should not be mandatory. For a longer reply, I've looked at multiple policies and guidelines:
The policy on verifiability says "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." It says "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." I suppose one could say if something is not likely to be challenged, it doesn't need a source. But to say something is not likely to be challenged is speculation. I suppose you could write whatever you want and only cite sources *after* another editor has removed it, but I personally think that articles should be written from sources to begin with. Although, the Main Page says "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" not "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can collate based on previously published material." The introduction says "If you add new material to Wikipedia, please provide references." and links to the guideline on citing sources. The introduction also says "Facts that are unreferenced are routinely removed from the encyclopedia" and links to the policy on verifiability. The policy on verifiability says "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." Self-published sources like wikis are generally not acceptable as sources. Preferably, material added to an article should be previously published.
The policy on no original research says "Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought". Original research refers to "unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories." The policy on no original research says the policy on neutral point of view has "traditionally forbidden editors from inserting their own views into articles" The policy on no original research says "the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources." WP:NOR says sources may be divided into three categories: primary, secondary, and tertiary. Books, films, television programs, videogames, etc are primary sources. WP:NOR says "it is easy to misuse" primary sources. Anyone "who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source." In that way, I suppose plot summaries could be left to a general agreement by readers/editors who have consulted the primary source. Many editors like describing the plots of fictional works they've read/seen/etc. This helps Wikipedia grow and allowing them to write plot summaries encourages contribution. But doesn't this mean the editor is a secondary source? Editors can't cite themselves. How do you tell if an editor has actually consulted the primary source? I suppose you can tell by consulting the primary source yourself and looking at what an editor has written and agreeing or disagreeing with their description — or you could leave the fact-checking up to other editors who claim to have consulted the primary source or appear as if they have consulted the primary source. "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source." A section that relies on a primary source should only make descriptive claims and no interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. I think that a section that relies on a primary source may lead to frequent arguments by people with different points of view, and even arguments about whether a sentence is descriptive or explanatory.
The concept of verifiability was developed "as a way of ensuring the accuracy of articles by encouraging editors to cite sources", assuming "that the most notable views were easiest to document with sources." I can understand why plot summaries of fictional works may not need to strictly be written from secondary sources — we're not dealing with the biographies of living persons. The style guideline on citing sources says if material lacks a citation, consider putting a {{ fact}} tag after it or finding a reference yourself. That guideline says if material is doubtful but not harmful, use the {{ fact}} tag and remove the claim if no source is provided within a reasonable time. The policy on verifiability says "any edit lacking a source may be removed" and "do not leave unsourced information in articles for too long." The word "may" in that quote could mean "might", it could mean "editors have permission to do so." The phrase "too long" could mean different things to different people.
You could assume that all information in a plot summary is written based on the primary source (the fictional work itself), but the policy on verifiability says "any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published." Does that mean the fictional work has already been published or the plot description has already been published? The article for publishing says publishing is the activity of making information available for public view. Speaking of television programs, I suppose broadcasting is a form of publishing, and I suppose releasing films or games on optical disc is publishing, and publishing a book is obviously publishing. But I do not think that readers should have to watch an entire television program/read an entire book/watch an entire film/play an entire videogame to check if the material in the Wikipedia article is true. Asking readers to consult the primary source themselves may be a problem, because many fictional works are copyrighted and if readers must consult the primary source to verify an article is accurate, readers might have to buy a product. That is why I think secondary sources are preferable, although plot descriptions from secondary sources may be difficult to find for many fictional works. Readers might not have to buy a product if it's available from a library. Readers might not have to buy a product depending on their country's copyright laws, but since the Wikimedia Foundation is headquartered in Florida, articles must conform to U.S. copyright law. That is why hyperlinks to full versions of copyrighted works are not allowed in articles, even though they would help a reader check the primary source themselves. The policy on copyrights says "if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States...Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors." For editors in the United States, the Wikimedia Foundation article says "all contributions to the Wikimedia Foundation are tax deductible for U.S. federal income tax purposes" — I don't know if this just applies to fundraising donations or also edits. If a reader purchases a product in order to verify a Wikipedia article, is the purchase price of that product tax deductible as research? I doubt it.
The policy on non-free content says material must meet 10 criteria, 3 of which are: "Respect for commercial opportunities. Non-free content is not used in a manner that is likely to replace the original market role of the original copyrighted media.", "Minimal usage. As few non-free content uses as possible are included in each article and in Wikipedia as a whole.", "Previous publication. Non-free content must have been published outside Wikipedia." I don't think Wikipedia articles should be a *substitute* for a book or film. If an article retells the entire storyline of a book or film or videogame, that may be replacing "the original market role of the copyrighted media." This is especially true when it comes to short stories. Speaking of films, I suppose a description of the plot is "more free" than the actual video, but the guideline on writing about fiction says "Information about copyrighted fictional worlds and plots of works of fiction can be provided only under a claim of fair use, and Wikipedia's fair-use policy holds that "the amount of copyrighted work used should be as little as possible". Many works of fiction covered by Wikipedia are protected by copyright. Some works are sufficiently old that their copyright has expired, or the rights may have been released into the public domain." Perhaps this is why the style guidelines for films says plot summaries should not exceed 900 words. The guideline for television episodes suggests as a rough guide, "no more than ten words per minute of screen time." It also says "An actual episode may be used as a source for information about the episode and constitutes a primary source. Such use does not constitute original research if it is used to verify a fact." Facts can mean objective and verifiable observation. Fact can also be synonymous with truth. There are many theories of truth, but the policy on verifiability says "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth."
I think it needs to be ascertained whether in-depth plot details about copyrighted fictional works qualifies as fair use. In-depth plot details of fictional works also upset many readers. This has led to arguments at WT:SPOILER about the appropriateness of putting {{ spoiler}} tags under headings titled Plot, Plot summary, etc. Some editors assume that a heading named Plot implies spoilers are present, but many readers do not expect spoilers in articles and make no such assumption about headings. If one views the edit summaries in articles about fictional works, one can often see many readers upset with the level of detail a plot description contains. To say that ==Plot== sections do not need citations means all an editor has to do to keep an unsourced section in an article is rename the heading to ==Plot==. That may not fool anyone, but how a policy or guideline is worded is important. It could be also argued that an article with a plot summary and no critical commentary would not quality as fair use. The word "verifiable" might mean that material does not need a source immediately, but eventually, or it might mean that readers have the ability to check the primary source themselves (which could present a problem for out of print material).
I don't think we should start saying that certain sections of articles are exempt from policies. But I also don't think we should be bold and remove all unsourced plot summaries. Although consensus can change, policies and guidelines reflect consensus and common practice. If most plot summaries on Wikipedia are unsourced, I suppose you could say it's a common practice for editors to consult a fictional work and edit the article based on that primary source. When editors add to a plot summary in an article about a fictional work and provide no citations, it may *imply* that they are referring to the primary source. It can also indicate they are adding nonsense to the article. I think secondary sources in plot summaries are preferable — you simply leave the description to a published source and rewrite what they said or quote them. But making secondary sources mandatory is a problem when it is difficult to find secondary sources that describe a fictional work. Insisting on secondary source citations may also lead to the removal of unsourced "spoilers" which upset many readers, since most critics do not tell readers the entire storyline of fictional works. Citing secondary sources may also cut down on the " play-by-play" nature of some plot summaries, although I'm not aware of any film studio or book publisher suing the Wikimedia Foundation for copyright infringement for a long plot description in an article. The script of a film or the manuscript of a book is likely copyrighted, but I personally don't know how much rewriting is allowed by U.S. copyright law. The policy on copyrights says "Note that copyright law governs the creative expression of ideas, not the ideas or information themselves. Therefore, it is legal to read an encyclopedia article or other work, reformulate the concepts in your own words, and submit it to Wikipedia. However, it would still be unethical (but not illegal) to do so without citing the original as a reference." Plot summaries in articles about fictional works may imply an editor rewrote information in their own words. But the only people who would be able to tell if the information was rewritten are people who have consulted the primary source themselves, unless the text can be found with a search engine or if the text sounds like it was copied verbatim. The Wikipedia article for " paraphrase" says a paraphrase should be introduced by a disclaimer, and that a well-done paraphrase is not a summary, not plagiarism, and usually longer than the original.
WP:NOT says "A brief plot summary may sometimes be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic". But I have seen many plot descriptions on Wikipedia that I would not classify as "brief". I don't think Wikipedia exists to do your book report for you, but many readers like long plot descriptions. I think a problem with policies and guidelines in general is that of the 5.6 million registered users on the English-language Wikipedia, very very few users actually discuss policies and guidelines. Policies and guidelines often contradict, because they were written by different people, often at different times. The policy on copyrights says it's legal to rewrite information in your own words. So perhaps a 10,000-word description of a book's plot written by an editor is legal. The policy on what Wikipedia is not says a *brief* plot summary may be appropriate. So that 10,000-word description might get removed. When a person puts alot of time and effort into writing something and it's deleted, it can be upsetting. When editing a page, there is a note: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it." But deleting large plot descriptions may lead to valuable volunteers leaving the project.
If we want Wikipedia to be accurate, we should probably insist on secondary sources. But plot summaries that do not cite secondary sources can be brilliant, useful, interesting, etc. I suppose an editor risks wasting their time whenever they click the edit tab — anyone could change it or remove it and editors have all kinds of reasons for changing or removing content. I suppose all we can say is, your edits are more likely to remain in an article if people agree with what you wrote, or if you have more time to watch an article than the people who disagree with what you wrote. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and the spirit of any rules, policies, and guidelines should be followed. Long plot descriptions can be great. Extensive detail may upset some readers and may pose a fair use problem. Unsourced material raises the question of whether readers can trust Wikipedia. Perhaps the accuracy of plot summaries should be left to readers who have read the book/watched the film/played the videogame/etc, but I think secondary sources are preferable. I don't think we should impose a strict word limit on plot descriptions. Saying plot summaries don't need secondary sources means they are an experiment in consensus reality or " wikiality". The policy on consensus says "Policies and guidelines document communal consensus rather than creating it". Declarations on legal issues like copyrights can supersede consensus decisions on a page.
The policy on consensus also says "Consensus is typically reached as a natural product of the editing process; generally someone makes a change or addition to a page, and then everyone who reads the page has an opportunity to either leave the page as it is or change it. In essence silence implies consent if there is adequate exposure to the community." But how do you know if a topic has "adequate exposure"? As far as I know, there is no tool that currently measures page views or unique visitors to each revision of every article. One could look at a list of the most edited articles at stats.wikipedia.org, although it may be out of date. One could look at a list of unique editors in the last month at wikirage.com. One could look at a list of the top 100 most viewed articles. A counter which tells readers the number of people currently reading a page might be useful, a counter which shows users that have consulted the primary source and have read the entire article might also be useful, but those may put too much load on the servers. You can say, "This is Wikipedia, articles are going to contain inaccuracies." You can say, "This is Wikipedia, articles should be written from secondary sources." You can say, "inaccurate plot descriptions are really not a big deal." You can say, "fans will fix anything wrong in the article." You can say, "Wikipedia is not a fansite and plot summaries attract cruft." I guess we can put plot summaries to the "eyeballs test", but citing secondary sources avoids alot of potential problems, so I think secondary sources are preferable. Now excuse me while I take a wikibreak and go to sleep and have a wikinightmare. -- Pixelface 19:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I see a lot of articles on Wikipedia stating something like, Criticism to Windows Criticism to Da Vinci code, Criticism of Coca-cola etc., etc., etc., I agree that, we should have a NPOV. But so long as the criticisms are a part of the main topic.,it's fine. Does an article that speaks only about Criticisms satisfy the "notability" criteria of an encyclopedia? Do you think that there can be reliable citations for such articles (esp if it focusses only on criticisms)?
there are always people who hates coca-cola, who hates windows, who hates Da-vinci code. But is Wikipedia a place to argue that? Can some one think on this? i think we should have a rule like, Wikipedia is NOT a "critical analyzer" or something like that... Criticisms should only be in a section of the main article. For example, the article Da Vinci code can have a critic's remark. But I don't think(My POV) this is a notable article, even if it has *valid* citations. Just wanted to know others consensus Mugunth 18:20, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
You may want to read WP:CFORK, in particular, Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles, as well as WP:SUMMARY, in which the issues related to POV forks are explained. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's a radical thought: What other encyclopaedia has lists? What is the point of lists in Wikipedia? Can't an agglomeration of items which have something significant in common be better explained in an encyclopaedic article on the subject? Such as State Parties of the International Criminal Court rather than List of State Parties to the International Criminal Court? If the items themselves are sufficiently notable it could be covered by a Category instead. List of groups referred to as cults could become Groups referred to as cults, which could perhaps have sections on the historic usage and context of the term, as befitting an encyclopaedia, as well as the actual list itself. Hence the focus would transfer away from the heated talk pages towards the actual article itself. Could this idea take hold? AndrewRT( Talk) 22:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
To answer the original question "What other encyclopaedia has lists?", my Aschehoug general purpose paper encyclopedia has, among other things, a full list of Shakespeare plays and Ibsen plays near the articles on William Shakespeare and Henrik Ibsen. They are boxed in as a separate section, outside the main body of the text. This is pretty much the same as us making a "list of..." article, although we alphabetize it differently. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)