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I believe the section on "plot summaries" should be reworded to include all in-universe topics. A fiction article needs to describe more than the in-universe aspects; however, plot summaries are only one part of the picture. Lists of items and weapons (that do not already violate gameguide) should also fall into this category. As a general interest encyclopedia, we need to explain how the items and weapons were created, as well as how they were received in (counter)culture. Otherwise, it's just a database of items. — Deckill er 22:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps something like...
Fictional databases: Like plot summaries, Wikipedia articles on fictional terms or items should offer real-world context, and not be merely a list of common terms or items. Examples and descriptions of terms and items are appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic.
— Deckill er 22:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I came here looking for a definition of 'plot summary'. I find my position is that I do not like 'plot summary' of a length which simply repeats the story, I think this pointless, well before the point where i would judge it becomes an issue of copyright. However, I do support re-telling parts of a story where the objective is to illustrate and explain the story. Particularly, presenting the story information in a different way to that in which it was created, to illustrate a character's motivation, explain why certain things happened within the logic of the plot. Now, illustrating a character can be difficult within wiki without external sources already backing up the point being made, but I judge it is proper to draw together episodes from a plot which even handedly represent the character as portrayed in the larger work. I do not consider such a description as a 'plot summary', yet it has become apparent that others do, and argue for deletion of material on that ground. It seems to me that this hampers the encyclopedia. So, does anyone have a definition of what a plot summary is, and is not? Sandpiper 22:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
(As to Everard, I had to stop and think who he was. One reason I have noticed which specifically suggests the creation of very short articles is cataloging. A catalog is an index, but unless there is an article on that subject there can be no entry.) Sandpiper 23:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that, as part of a broader article, a longish (500 word) plot summary can be appropriate. For an example, see Ulysses (novel). In general, if a piece of fiction is notable enough to have an article, there ought to be enough other material available that the article will consist of more than just a plot summary. So I don't see it as an issue of WP:NOT. CMummert · talk 13:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I have a question. Is it ok to have an entry that is only a plot summary and an image? If no then take it to AFD? I have tried that with more then a dozen articles that are just plot summaries and the consensus is to "clean up". I don't think I could agree to this. They should be expanded into articles. Any thoughts? Purgatory Fubar Converse or Snafu 19:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Concerning this section of the article:
This sentence below was removed with the edit summary, "revert. I don't think the addition of those 2 examples added enough to the readers' understanding to justify expanding a page that's already too large to easily read."
Here is the diff showing where I added the sentence.
Various editors had to suffer through 3 unnecessary AFD deletion reviews of this article: Comparison of wiki farms. See the links to the deletion reviews in the "article milestones" template at the top of the talk page: Talk:Comparison of wiki farms. The last deletion review ended up with a decision to keep the article.
My addition of the sentence in question is to prevent further problems in the future. See the last deletion review to understand why that single sentence will solve the problem:
I found a better sentence to add: " This site search, and this one, pull up thousands of examples of lists and comparison tables."-- Timeshifter 04:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Following a query on my talk page I thought I'd come here to check on this. Although WP:NOT#MEMORIAL covers articles created about victims of such things, does it also apply to the inclusion of lists naming people in articles about the incidents themselves? For example, the Omagh bombing article does not include a list of victims (an article created containing the names was nominated and deleted here, and the content was therefore decided not to be worthy of inclusion in the article - see Talk:Omagh bombing) but other articles on incidents including the Columbine High School massacre and the Kent State shootings do. Is there a policy on this or is it simply the case that they should be included if they add substantial content to the article, and left out otherwise? Cheers. QmunkE 12:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone point me towards where the original consensus was formed for Wikipeida is not a memorial? There seems to be wildly varying interpretations of what this policy means. Some folks think that it only applies to individual bio pages, others think it applies to lists of people who died in notable events on standalone pages, and still others think that it means that such lists shouldn't even exist within the context of an article about a notable event that led to the deaths. I would just like to understand the ultimate goal of this policy so that I can apply it correctly. My feeling is that, while an event like the Virginia Tech shootings or other notable events does not confer individual notability on the individuals killed, they are notable as a group and therefore, at the very least, inclusion in the article about the event is merited. I am less certain about breaking out such a list into a sub-page, though I don't really understand why it would be inappropriate to create, if length of the original article became an issue. Chunky Rice 17:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I saw Karmann added a new bullet point talking about restricting statistics to infoboxes. (He placed it in WP:NOT#IINFO, but I moved it to the "Not a directory" section since the directory section talks about lists of loosely related facts. Seemed like a more appropriate section.)
However, it doesn't look like this Statistics point was discussed at all prior to adding it to the policy. Since this isn't a trivial change to the policy, I thought it might be prudent to see what you all think of his addition. Is there consensus for it, or does it need to be changed/removed? Personally I haven't really gotten my head around it enough to say yet whether I agree with having it in policy or not so I'm curious to see what you guys think. Dugwiki 19:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks like Karrman moved the section back to WP:NOT#IINFO from the Directory section. Me, I think the other section is more appropriate, but since it's a pretty minor matter and just a question of personal taste I can live with it either way. The main thing is making sure people are generally ok with the language. Dugwiki 15:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
This page should be renamed from What Wikipedia is not to Wikipedia should not be. The majority of the things listed on this page of what Wikipedia is not happens every day, which goes against the title of this page. 70.118.89.142 02:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi.
I saw this:
"In the unusual situation where the opinions of a single individual are important enough to discuss, it is preferable to let other people write about them."
Wrong. It is mandated that others must have written about them before they can be included in Wikipedia. See WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:RS, WP:SPS etc. In the absence of independent sources (ie. those written by people other than the one(s) holding the opinion in question), notability can't even be established. mike4ty4 00:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Could we also say that Wikipedia is also not a source for listing products, unless they are especially noteworthy? Take a look at Category:Quest Software, for example. — Loadmaster 22:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Is removing comments that violate this policy from the talk page allowed?-- Sefringle 00:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
But talk pages of articles are there to discuss hoe to improve the article and not to publish original thought. If someone is using the talk page for a purpose other than to discuss how to improve the article, then, yes, those comments could and should be removed. DreamGuy 03:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not the be-all and end-all of the internet
Wikipedia is not the internet
I bring these two up because of something I noticed: a tendency of internet users to pretty much assume that the internet is entirely composed off of a particular favorite site. My sister in law favors Yahoo, in this regard, for example, and figures that if you don't have a Yahoo email address, you probably don't exist on the 'net. Expand on this - in many AfD arguments, people will not only assume that this is a great place to dump data for hosting sake, are surprised when it lands in AfD, and will defend it to no end with all of the arguments found in WP:AADD as their rationale to keep the articles. -- Dennis The Tiger ( Rawr and stuff) 20:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we conclude from this official policy, that wikipedia is not a place to create pages with titles like "Islamic commands" where to list all Islamic religous commands, and things like that? (I don't mean to offend moslims here, this is just a fictional example.) huji— TALK 07:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to follow "Wikipedia is not censored" with its counterpoint. Controversial images should only be included when they serve an encyclopedic purpose. We've all seen the prudes complaining that we're corrupting the youth and need to remove the paintings of naked ladies, but the other side of the coin is the people who put controversial images in an article where they don't really serve any informative purpose, and then defend them aggressively with a big stupid fight about how Wikipedia isn't censored and we shouldn't cater to the prudish Americans and blah blah. Wikipedia is not a mission for evangelizing the unwashed masses to our superior Western mores. Our purpose is not to proselytize to the world and convert their primitive minds to our free, uninhibited ways. It's to provide information in a neutral manner. When shocking or controversial images are important to the topic of an article, by all means include them, but don't be controversial just for the sake of being controversial. — Omegatron 02:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
In thinking about the recent afd Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre I realized that it might be helpful to add a sentence or two to the WP:MEMORIAL section to clarify the difference between an individual memorial or obituary and summary information about victims of tragedies.
WP:MEMORIAL currently reads "Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered." This clearly excludes obituary and memorial for individuals who are not otherwise somehow notable.
However, where confusion comes up is whether or how this affects victim lists or other summary information about the victims of a tragedy that involves multiple deaths. My opinion, which seemed to be in the majority in the afd I mentioned above, is that the list of victims of a tragedy is an important part of the historical background of the event. In an informational way it performs a similar function to the cast list of a film or television series by providing very basic information on everyone involved. Therefore I think it's important to have that information easily available in some form to people interested in reading about the event that caused the deaths.
The main criteria is probably the size of the list and of the event's article. If the list of names can be comfortably included within the article, then that is the best option. If the list is fairly large, but not so large as to be unmanagable, and there is interesting or useful auxilliary information about the victims, then I think a list article supplementing the main article is the best option. Finally, if the list is particularly long, such as with an event that involves hundreds or thousands of deaths or more, then the list as a whole should probably be placed instead as an openly available source document at Wikisource that articles about the event can interlink to for reference.
So all that being said, I'd like to suggest the following rewording of WP:MEMORIAL -
"Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of individual encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered. Information on dead individuals should be objective, free of overly emotional opinion, and from independently published reliable sources. In the special case of victims of notable tragedies, the victims' names should normally appear, space permitting, within the event's article. For tragic events with larger numbers of victims which will not fit comfortably within the space of the main article, the list of victims should be split off either onto Wikisource as a reference page or, if there is sufficient encyclopedic treatment of the list entries, as a list article supplementing the main article."
So what do you guys think? Feel free to agree or disagree or critique my proposed wording. Thanks! Dugwiki 17:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a somewhat long comment, but I simply have to point out something that has bothered me for a few years now. I did not find a comment like this yet, but if I am repeating a previous comment please forgive me...
I think Wikipedia is a great forum for sharing informatation and providing a starting point for students to further investigate subjects on their own. However, I would like to make the case that Wikipedia is not suitable to be used as a bibliographical reference or footnote in essays, papers, articles, etc., under most circumstances. I am starting to see a lot of footnotes and or bibliographical references to Wikipedia in my students' reports, and I have instructed my students that citing Wikipedia as a reference is not a good practice for a couple of reasons.
First, since the content of a given article can change at any time, simply citing a Wikipedia article will not allow the reader (i.e. in this case, I am the reader) to refer back to the original material being cited. Afterall, citations aren't simply used to show that you did some actual reading and didn't just pull your material out of thin air. Citations are actually intended to allow the reader to go back to your referenced material to investigate for themselves. As a scientist, I often do this myself when reading research reports or articles. One remedy to this is to cite the date and time of the Wiki article being cited, but this seems quite cumbersome. If a book or journal article is referenced within a Wiki article, they should go to that original source if they want to reference something.
Second, the content of a given article has only been reviewed by the people who happen to have read the article. These people may or may not be well-informed on the subject, and there is no guarantee that a well-informed person has had a chance to correct any errors whenever you just happen to be looking at the article. For the most part, the articles I've seen on Wikipedia are pretty well-written, and articles in my area of expertise seem more-or-less accurate, but not always. We are probably all aware that some articles require serious editing, or some "vandal" has come along and intentionally inserted inaccurate information. Sometimes articles are simply deleted by the Wikipedia staff because they are very problematic for some reason.
On the positive side, I do encourage my students to read Wikipedia articles in subject areas that they are familiar with or have recently researched, so that they may contribute to the discussion or help to edit of the article. This is a good excercise in having a peaceful intellectual debate about a topic they have researched in the past. Furthermore, the international aspect of the user communtity is a great way to remind students that it's a big (or small) world.
One final comment/story: A colleague of mine is taking a graduate course in biogeochemistry at a "well-reputed" institution, and one of the instructors was listing important numbers that they should all know. One of these was the total volume of the Earth's oceans. My colleague noted to a classmate later that the number didn't look right, and indeed their text book listed a number several orders of magnitude greater. Other text books also suggested the instructor's number was way off. When my colleague searched the internet, the only citation that came up with a number close to what the professor used was Wikipedia - in fact it was the exact same number. So obviously the instructor did not even use her own text book to get this number - and obviously no one had corrected the number on the Wikipedia page yet. So I'd also like to suggest that university professors should at least refer to their own text books when providing information to students. But please feel free to contribute or edit content on Wikipedia :).
Thanks for "listening"
Beth Rogers 23:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC) Beth Rogers
No, I don't think people should cite it, and I don't think people should cite Britannica, either -- the error rate there isn't very good. People shouldn't be citing encyclopedias in the first place. Wikipedia and other encyclopedias should be solid enough to give good, solid background information to inform your studies for a deeper level. And really, it's more reliable to read Wikipedia for background than to read random Web pages on the Internet.
Is there a policy on image-naming conventions that would settle whether it's permissible to include the name of the author and contributor of an image in the image's filename? The author/contributor in question is also a Wikipedia editor who uses his real name as his userid, and includes this name in the image's filename, so that the filename for a picture of a Corvette, for example, would be Corvette_by_[User's]_[Name].jpg .
I AGF, but also wonder if the purpose might not be self-promotion: a Google search on the editor's real name returns hits for the image files on Wikipedia precisely because the author has included his name in the image's filename. I note that in several articles the editor has without explanation substituted his own work for perfectly adequate images. Doing so has not appreciably improved the articles, but it has, of course, replaced the file with one bearing the editor's name and increased his visibility on the web.
In fact, on other websites the user advertises his work as a photographer by inviting people to view his work at Wikipedia -- and to visit his Wikipedia userpage, which raises the possibility that the userpage itself may be being used for self-promotion, contrary to WP:NOT#USER.
I have hunted around without much success for relevant policies, and while I suspect WP:NOT#SOAP is probably applicable, I'm wondering if there are other more precisely on point. Is there a policy on claiming authorship that might be applicable? -- Rrburke( talk) 17:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
A user continuously suggests that Bob Dylan be removed from the List of notable converts to Christianity. He either does not understand or simply chooses to ignore the fact that the criterion for inclusion on the list is highlighted in the introductory paragraph:
The list is simply a record of notable conversions, not a listing for continued belief. Many people have continued in their faith, and some have surely lost interest or left the religion. The list notes such a change in a person's entry.
As we have 12 or so sources which say that Dylan did convert, 3 or so which explicitly say that he was baptized and describe the people and circumstances surrounding it (2 of which are widely-known, published sources), and since the opposing party has shown no sources which deny this conversion (nor have they shown sources for anything), the fact that he converted is no longer up for debate, by Wikipedia's standards.
However, this user consistently claims that including Dylan on the list violates WP:SOAPBOX. He continues to claim that we are using the article to insidiously proselytize by 'sneaking in' non-Christians. As I have said, despite being told the criterion for inclusion numerous times, the user continues to assume that one must currently be a Christian to be on this list.
Let's assume we can forget the fact that the article has, for quite some time before this argument initiated, included people who the article explicitly claimed 'have left Christianity'.
The user claims Dylan's inclusion on the list is an attempt to "endorse/advocate Christianity". We continuously explain the purpose of the list, and the criterion for inclusion- we include anyone whose conversion can be verified by reliable sources (the list needs work, and needs citations, but we're working on it). Also, the question remains- how can one be endorsing Christianity by showing someone who has left the faith? (Let's pretend that the other side of the argument will verify Dylan's return to Judaism with sources)
The list is simply a list. It is not a tool for proselytizing. It intends to show notable people who have converted to Christianity at some point in their lives. There is no deception- the intro paragraph makes the criterion clear and notes that not everyone on the list has continued in the faith, and the individual listings make it quite clear that the person listed later left the faith. This list is not being used to proselytize. It is being used as a reference hub.
It's also worth noting that the user constantly incorporates religion into the argument. Yes, the article is about religious conversion, but the user will continuously use the historical and theological relationship of Judaism and Christianity as a part of his argument. He continues to make it into a very personal issue, and makes it seem as if we are 'insulting Judaism'.
I will present a list of his quotes, for full understanding. I have not taken these statements out of context (although it should be noted that although several of these quotes came before published sources were added, and he therefore denied the veracity of the online sources, he has still expressed these same views, even now):
(I noted the apparent bias here, and he stood behind this statement.)
The only person who continues to pretend in the light of sources is this user. He has offered zero sources to support his statements. Additionally, he ignores everything which is explained to him, and he continues in his argument. He appears to be biased in favor of Judaism, and his argument seems to be largely driven by personal belief. He feels that it is advocacy to have a list that considers only conversion, not continued belief. However, he is not seen complaining about the List of vegans article, which lists anyone who has ever committed to veganism, despite their current status. I doubt we'll see him on that talk page crying 'advocacy!' once this discussion is over. (And this is a list which I have mentioned to him several times.)
This user wants to remove a person who converted to Christianity from a list of people who have converted to Christianity. Who is violating WP:SOAPBOX?
Please share your comments on this. Those on my side of the fence are constantly accused of violating WP:SOAPBOX, and I for one am injecting no religious bias into this discussion. -- C.Logan 19:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
If you were to change the title from "List of notable converts to Christianity."
to "List of notable people who have at some time converted to Christianity"
would not the problem go away? NB. This is not the first article I have seen where the name of the article does not seem to be in perfect harmony with the definition just below. DanielDemaret 14:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Would it be OK to add that, with regard to future books, recordings, films, etc., the subject should have a definite (confirmed and verifiable) name, and be due for publication/release in the current year? There's been a number of additions of the form So-and-so's third album, or of albums to be released some time in 2008 (after other not-yet-released albums). Some articles are moved three or four times before their subjects are finally released.
These articles on future items are often real pains, being fought over by fans concerning their contents, nature, names, etc. I'd rather see a policy to the effect that we should only have articles on things that exist and events that have occurred; future things and events can be mentioned and discussed in other articles (such as articles on writers, actors, or singers). -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 21:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems that it is not true anymore that wikipedia is not censored. In particular the hex number [hex removed as unnecessary] is screened for. I don't know when/who/how this changed and I don't think it is a change for the better. -- MarSch 14:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Say, not to get too far off-topic, but I just noticed that user Wimt, a non-admin, just reverted someone else's text in this thread apparently without their permission. Now I can understand if an admin or higher-up deletes or alters text on an article talk page, but it seems a little less kosher for a non-admin to do it. I didn't un-revert the change, since it's possible an admin would agree with the deletion, but I just wanted to post this as a general thought on who should or shouldn't alter otherwise apparently good-faith text (ie not obvious vandalism). Dugwiki 22:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
The illegal numbers at illegal prime aren't being censored. Is the hd-dvd key number somehow more special than those? -- MarSch 13:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
We should add to the chrystal ball section that the arguement "it has potential" should be invalid, because it hasn't happened yet.-- Sefringle 06:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is being abused, as if it were a social networking site like myspace. Many people have begun to use wikipedia as such, due to the fact that it is not blocked on institutional servers (e.g. schools). I've had issues with social networkers and harassment, recently. I would request that someone take this issue seriously. If this is allowed to continue, wikipedia's servers may be put at risk. These people are wasting bandwidth and server space, only to use wikipedia as if 'twere myspace. Please, someone, take this seriously! Respond to me on my talk page. There are numerous users who are using wikipedia as a social networking site, and this is clearly against policy WP:not#socialnet. Not to mention, a few of these people have been harassing me, as I've said. I want to keep this strictly encyclopedic, and being attacked by a couple of kids makes me want to quit wikipedia for good. Fuzzform 07:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
It might seem unbelievable that people are putting product prices in Wikipedia, but see here. What part of WP:NOT covers this, and if nothing explicitly covers this, what is the best way to add something to reinforce the view that this is decidely not what Wikipedia is for? With the caveat that it is possible to discuss price wars, changing economic prices over decades of inflation, and such matters, in an encyclopedic fashion, but simply listings and comparisons of prices are not acceptable. Carcharoth 23:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
It strikes me as a thin end of the wedge' problem. How long before a dispute over whether motor vehicle prices are listed, and then how long until the dispute over whether it's the list price that's listed or the average drive away price. That will be followed by a request for the average resale value to be added. Wii and MS points are just another bit of cruft that will open the door to comparative cash prices for video games and then items other than video games, to be listed with a price. It needs stopping before it gets out of hand and becomes an indiscriminate collection of prices. - X201 08:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
"It was sold in the beginning at a price of $850 when competing cars often cost $2000-$3000. By the 1920s the price had fallen to $300 (about $3,300 in 2005 inflation-adjusted dollars)"
My 10 pence - I see listing prices as a subset of indiscriminate information. Unless the price is genuinely notable (as with the Model T example). To go with the cause of this discussion, the Wii points, each console has a different price for it's games, BUT that price remains the same in all but 2 examples. As I said elsewhere, listing 25 identical prices just because the 26th is different strikes me as completely ridiculous. Sentences stating 'N64 games cost 1000 points' etc can esaily be included in a genereal overview, and the 2 games that have different prices can easily have a sentence stating the different pricing in their individual articles. Allowing lists Wii points/XBox points/any other type of pricing in ANY form of currency just opens the door for a whole mess of other crap exists inclusions. So I think that not only should a new entry be added to allow removal of pricing information (of which I'm finding a lot of Browser-based game articles also list, which also smacks of advertising), but that it also specifically be worded to include prices in 'points'. The wording would definitly need to be as unambiguous as possible. After all, something is either a price or it isn't, there isn't much middle ground. If prices ARE notable for some reason, they would still need to have been recorded as notable in independent sources to stay in line with policies, otherwise people could just list any old price. DarkSaber2k 11:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not a comparative price list for products. How the price of a product varies by retailers and geographic regions is not normally relevant to an encyclopedic article about it due to the constant fluctuation of prices and currency rates both locally and globally. Price information should therefore either not normally be included in product article or be limited in scope to price information that could be considered relevant in a broad economic sense, such as the manufacturer's original recommended price which is more likely to be used for analytical purposes."
That would get the main thing that we all agree on (avoiding catalog pricing and price lists, etc) but would leave available things like the MSRP which a lot of readers probably are interested in. Dugwiki 16:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Disagree with this - seems like it will only result in removal of valid, appropriate encyclopaedia-worthy prices (like RRPs of consoles at launch or car prices) and to mention this specifically will only lead to edit warring. - Halo 08:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Since the discussion has stalled a bit, let me try a new wording and see what people think:
"Wikipedia is not a sales catalogue, therefore prices of a product should not be quoted in an article unless there is a justified and sourced reason for mentioning the price. Examples of justified reasons include notable sales of rare collectors items, prices relating to discussion of a price war, and historical discussion of economic inflation. Everyday, street prices on the other hand are an example of ephemeral trivia that can vary widely from place to place and over time. In addition, Wikipedia is not a price guide to be used to compare the prices of competing products, or the prices of a single product across different countries or regions. Therefore lists of products currently on sale should not quote prices."
How does that sound? Carcharoth 21:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that in the "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" the shortcut says "WP:NOT#IINFO", with two I's. I changed it to "WP:NOT#INFO", but now " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOT#INFO" goes to the top of the page, whereas the misspelling, " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOT#IINFO" goes to the relivent section. Kevin 00:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
In a recent AFD discussion, a user declared that the Wikipedia "is not a shopping guide." I can see arguments for and against that statement, and was wondering what you think. Is the Wikipedia a shopping guide ? If not, there's a lot more to be done than just delete Comparison of time tracking software - What's the next step if the bulk of this category of articles linked to here should be removed? Big if, but I'm curious - Not at all sure where I stand. MrZaius talk 11:51, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Items on a list or comparison chart do not have to be notable in themselves. The topic of the list or chart has to be notable. See WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. The topic of the list or chart has to be specific. See again WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. A link back to the home page of an item on the list or chart is allowed just as any citation/reference link is allowed. Where people get confused is when the list drifts over into subjective analysis and reviews. Then the list or comparison chart becomes advertising or negative advertising. Then it needs to be cleaned up to remove the advertising language, reviews, and hype. This chart, Comparison of wiki farms, went through 3 deletion attempts until all these issues were discussed and addressed. I urge people to read the last deletion discussion where it was finally decided to keep the chart. Jimbo Wales created Wikia.com, a wiki farm. I found it somewhat amusing that I had to explain to wikipedians that the topics of wiki software and wiki farms are notable. Not every wiki farm on the list is as notable as wikia.com, but lists and charts do not have to have all notable items on them. Otherwise, wikipedia lists and charts would become supporters of only the largest companies with the best advertising budgets. Freeware and open source software would be at a great disadvantage. See again WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. That guideline says "there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List." I am sure that many people will not have heard of many of the people on the Nixon Enemies List. It is the list topic that is notable, not necessarily all those people listed. Concerning software lists and charts: They are not shopping charts or advertising, because the charts do not discuss the relative merits of one feature versus another, nor do they discuss how well any particular program implements any particular feature. It would be impossible for wikipedia to fairly do such subjective analysis anyway. The feature columns in many charts do show the state of the art, and are thus encyclopedic in nature. Wikipedia has the necessary large numbers of WP:NPOV editors necessary to keep such charts and lists up to date, and free from advertising hyperbole. For many of these lists and charts there is nowhere else on the web that one can find such an NPOV list or chart. Few companies would want to maintain lists on their websites where they favorably discuss their competition. Few magazines have enough time or editors for maintaining such lists or charts. -- Timeshifter 23:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Although it has been said that Wikipedia is WP:NOT#CENSORED, in reality the file $wgSpamRegex can be used to block the use of arbitrary phrases other than spam. [4] This spam block is imposed by the Developers [5], who are exempt from the need to form WP:Consensus. The list of phrases banned from Wikipedia under this mechanism is not public, and the identity of the offending blocked phrase will not be revealed to an editor when his edit is refused. [6] Phrases can be blocked by the developers on their own initiative in the absence of any policy or office action by the Wikimedia Foundation. [7] Community consensus to permit the use of a phrase on a particular page using the "Spam whitelist" mechanism is not sufficient to override this block, although administrators are free to appeal to the Wikimedia Foundation to order the repeal of a specific block if its nature is known. [8] The Developers act in a hierarchy that is largely independent of the Wikimedia Board of Trustees, with a small number of people determining who is granted or loses authority and access by a process that is not subject to public vote or notification. [9]
Please - either add this to your policy, or make it not so. Thank you. Mike Serfas 02:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm involved in an active discussion here over whether this section forbids all contact info from Wikipedia or whether an article can have a phone number and address (in this case a school article). I would appreciate some admin/community input as I am not absolutely solid on this particular policy. Adam McCormick 01:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Recently, myself and few other editors have instigated a cleanup of images and galleries in the Wikiproject Dog articles after reaching consensus that they needed monitoring. We agreed that per WP:NOT, galleries were causing more harm than aid as many articles constantly need policing against anons and users treating them as places to upload images of their pets willy-nilly. So far the cleanup has been successful, but it is still an uphill battle. I would like to propose adding a small sentence to WP:NOT specifically addressing this application of image policy to make dealing with this easier in the future. Maybe an addition to the fourth point of Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files section such as, "Wikipedia is not a gallery for personal images of you, your family, friends, pets or possessions ." Maybe with a point of explanantion similar to, "Just as a traditional paper encyclopedia refrains from illustrations of it's editors in its entries, personal images contributed to articles must have encyclopedic merit". There should also be some sort of qualifier to keep this from being used to prevent simply uploading self-related images, which of course does not violate policy and is done on a vast scale. VanTucky 22:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Are you aware of Wikipedia:Gallery? You could revive that if you like and remove the historical tag if you want and try and get it more widely known. I'm still not clear why that (and other guidelines) were marked inactive. It was part of large batch of inactivations carried out by User:Radiant, but I don't think anyone followed half of them up. Carcharoth 16:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The point is that Wikipedia is not censored period. Not for kids, nor for adults, not for good taste, not for poor taste, not for anything. >Radiant< 11:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is censored and often even discussion about exactly what is censored is censored. To discuss really gross, libelous, dangerous or illegal material in detail is to publish it. To give an example that will be readily evident, we don't permit messages from pedophiles soliciting sex with children or discuss the details of such messages in a public forum. Fred Bauder 14:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I wish I could remember a time where people weren't immature. - Yancyfry
Here is an example of what I was saying. DON'T CLICK THE LINK ON THE PAGE! [11] What have I told you? Pornography is one of the poisons of America. If you don't believe that, than think of it as one of the things people, teenagers, are too immature about. They shouldn't even see porn, but this is the days we live in. - Yancyfry
Is this really necessary at this time?-- Sefringle 02:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
With the "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball" policy. I have seen way too many film articles that have received "no consensus" on the grounds that "crystal ball" doesn't apply when you have "references", because of the part in the policy that says you cannot have "unverified" content. The problem that I see, is that CRYSTAL doesn't address that issue. Obviously you need verifiable content, but having 20 sources say the same thing "So-n-so company wants to make more films in this series" doesn't constitute the film coming out. The same could be said for television programs, and music. Just because a studio says they want to make more doesn't mean that it is going to happen. There are a lot of associated factors that tie-in with the production of another product. My case examples is Spider-Man 4. Sony announced that they were going to make more films, 4, 5, and 6. No one has a contract beyond 3, and no one has said anything other than "if they have a good story, and everyone is brought back...then I'd do it". This seems like something best reserved for another articles (say Spider-Man film series). But, the current AfD on it includes constant votes of "keep" on the grounds that "it has a lot of verifiable sources". They're right, it has 12 sources, all doing nothing more than suggesting what might be if they do make more films. It seems to me that speculation is still speculation, even when it's sourced, and speculation is nothing more than a big guess in the dark. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 12:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Another element people have to think about is how notable a project is to have its own article. Spider-Man 4 is currently well-served in two paragraphs on the film series page. Alientraveller 15:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
But see, it shouldn't just be about "unverified" information. The purpose of the analogy is that Wikipedia cannot predict the future, and citing sources that don't even predict the future for us doesn't change that. I can have a source, reliable, that says a company wants to put out a film, but that source isn't predicting the film will be released, it's just stating people want to make it. If the purpose of Crystal ball isn't about whether something will or will not be made, then made that needs to be corrected in the article, as most people see it as that. As for it not being about where the information lies, well why does it initially go on to talk about whether future information "merits its own article" and then later doesn't explain if the "discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, provided that discussion is properly referenced" merits its own article, or should be merged into a more comprehensive one. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 02:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let's create consensus that plot summaries should be brief. his is an encyclopedia, and articles about works of fiction need not include scene-by-scene summaries of events. See, for example, much too lengthy plot summaries at Saw 3 or Dead Calm (film). Please allow the word "brief" to be added to this policy. Thanks. Not a dog 16:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Could we say that Wikipedia is also Not a lyric book? That just came to my mind. Tell me if you think that should not be in the article. Thanks. -- ASDFGHJKL= Greatest Person Ever+ Coolest Person Ever 02:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, ok. Thanks. -- ASDFGHJKL= Greatest Person Ever+ Coolest Person Ever 02:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Somebody suggested merging Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not aniconistic into Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not censored. I am against this merge, as this warrents its own section at a minimum. It would be better to just add it somewhere else on WP:NOT, or to not move it at all.-- Sefringle 02:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the comment, Sefringle. I am inclined to agree. -- ProtectWomen 06:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible to make a subsection of Not Censored or perhaps a section right below it. I would say this is definitely major. Let's not forget how people lost their lives in riots relating to iconisist (and admittedly racist) cartoons. We need to come down with concrete policy so as to avoid gray areas in the future. That having been said, we have disputes over matters of BC/AD versus BCE/CE all the time and we have policy in place (actually as I look at it it seems to be up for discussion as well), but the issue of images, utterances/typing of ineffable names, this is a very major issue that has to come under a major discussion. -- Valley2city ₪‽ 19:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
No merge please, one is policy, one is an essay, and one I disagree with, at that.--
Manboobies 12:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the articles in Category:Glossaries, e.g. Glossary of BDSM clearly contradicts this point.
Either the policy needs to be updated or the articles that are clearly lists of dictionary definitions should be removed.
-- nyenyec ☎ 19:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we have something like "Wikipedia is not a children's encyclopaedia. Do not oversimplify language with the purpose of ensuring a five-year old child is fully able to comprehend it. If an article uses specialized jargon, an explanation would be advisable, do not however remove the terms for fear of misapprehension."? Far too often I've seen articles that make me want to bang my head against a wall, it's like an epidemic. + Hexagon1 ( t) 23:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
I believe the section on "plot summaries" should be reworded to include all in-universe topics. A fiction article needs to describe more than the in-universe aspects; however, plot summaries are only one part of the picture. Lists of items and weapons (that do not already violate gameguide) should also fall into this category. As a general interest encyclopedia, we need to explain how the items and weapons were created, as well as how they were received in (counter)culture. Otherwise, it's just a database of items. — Deckill er 22:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps something like...
Fictional databases: Like plot summaries, Wikipedia articles on fictional terms or items should offer real-world context, and not be merely a list of common terms or items. Examples and descriptions of terms and items are appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic.
— Deckill er 22:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I came here looking for a definition of 'plot summary'. I find my position is that I do not like 'plot summary' of a length which simply repeats the story, I think this pointless, well before the point where i would judge it becomes an issue of copyright. However, I do support re-telling parts of a story where the objective is to illustrate and explain the story. Particularly, presenting the story information in a different way to that in which it was created, to illustrate a character's motivation, explain why certain things happened within the logic of the plot. Now, illustrating a character can be difficult within wiki without external sources already backing up the point being made, but I judge it is proper to draw together episodes from a plot which even handedly represent the character as portrayed in the larger work. I do not consider such a description as a 'plot summary', yet it has become apparent that others do, and argue for deletion of material on that ground. It seems to me that this hampers the encyclopedia. So, does anyone have a definition of what a plot summary is, and is not? Sandpiper 22:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
(As to Everard, I had to stop and think who he was. One reason I have noticed which specifically suggests the creation of very short articles is cataloging. A catalog is an index, but unless there is an article on that subject there can be no entry.) Sandpiper 23:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that, as part of a broader article, a longish (500 word) plot summary can be appropriate. For an example, see Ulysses (novel). In general, if a piece of fiction is notable enough to have an article, there ought to be enough other material available that the article will consist of more than just a plot summary. So I don't see it as an issue of WP:NOT. CMummert · talk 13:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I have a question. Is it ok to have an entry that is only a plot summary and an image? If no then take it to AFD? I have tried that with more then a dozen articles that are just plot summaries and the consensus is to "clean up". I don't think I could agree to this. They should be expanded into articles. Any thoughts? Purgatory Fubar Converse or Snafu 19:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Concerning this section of the article:
This sentence below was removed with the edit summary, "revert. I don't think the addition of those 2 examples added enough to the readers' understanding to justify expanding a page that's already too large to easily read."
Here is the diff showing where I added the sentence.
Various editors had to suffer through 3 unnecessary AFD deletion reviews of this article: Comparison of wiki farms. See the links to the deletion reviews in the "article milestones" template at the top of the talk page: Talk:Comparison of wiki farms. The last deletion review ended up with a decision to keep the article.
My addition of the sentence in question is to prevent further problems in the future. See the last deletion review to understand why that single sentence will solve the problem:
I found a better sentence to add: " This site search, and this one, pull up thousands of examples of lists and comparison tables."-- Timeshifter 04:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Following a query on my talk page I thought I'd come here to check on this. Although WP:NOT#MEMORIAL covers articles created about victims of such things, does it also apply to the inclusion of lists naming people in articles about the incidents themselves? For example, the Omagh bombing article does not include a list of victims (an article created containing the names was nominated and deleted here, and the content was therefore decided not to be worthy of inclusion in the article - see Talk:Omagh bombing) but other articles on incidents including the Columbine High School massacre and the Kent State shootings do. Is there a policy on this or is it simply the case that they should be included if they add substantial content to the article, and left out otherwise? Cheers. QmunkE 12:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone point me towards where the original consensus was formed for Wikipeida is not a memorial? There seems to be wildly varying interpretations of what this policy means. Some folks think that it only applies to individual bio pages, others think it applies to lists of people who died in notable events on standalone pages, and still others think that it means that such lists shouldn't even exist within the context of an article about a notable event that led to the deaths. I would just like to understand the ultimate goal of this policy so that I can apply it correctly. My feeling is that, while an event like the Virginia Tech shootings or other notable events does not confer individual notability on the individuals killed, they are notable as a group and therefore, at the very least, inclusion in the article about the event is merited. I am less certain about breaking out such a list into a sub-page, though I don't really understand why it would be inappropriate to create, if length of the original article became an issue. Chunky Rice 17:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I saw Karmann added a new bullet point talking about restricting statistics to infoboxes. (He placed it in WP:NOT#IINFO, but I moved it to the "Not a directory" section since the directory section talks about lists of loosely related facts. Seemed like a more appropriate section.)
However, it doesn't look like this Statistics point was discussed at all prior to adding it to the policy. Since this isn't a trivial change to the policy, I thought it might be prudent to see what you all think of his addition. Is there consensus for it, or does it need to be changed/removed? Personally I haven't really gotten my head around it enough to say yet whether I agree with having it in policy or not so I'm curious to see what you guys think. Dugwiki 19:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks like Karrman moved the section back to WP:NOT#IINFO from the Directory section. Me, I think the other section is more appropriate, but since it's a pretty minor matter and just a question of personal taste I can live with it either way. The main thing is making sure people are generally ok with the language. Dugwiki 15:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
This page should be renamed from What Wikipedia is not to Wikipedia should not be. The majority of the things listed on this page of what Wikipedia is not happens every day, which goes against the title of this page. 70.118.89.142 02:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi.
I saw this:
"In the unusual situation where the opinions of a single individual are important enough to discuss, it is preferable to let other people write about them."
Wrong. It is mandated that others must have written about them before they can be included in Wikipedia. See WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:RS, WP:SPS etc. In the absence of independent sources (ie. those written by people other than the one(s) holding the opinion in question), notability can't even be established. mike4ty4 00:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Could we also say that Wikipedia is also not a source for listing products, unless they are especially noteworthy? Take a look at Category:Quest Software, for example. — Loadmaster 22:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Is removing comments that violate this policy from the talk page allowed?-- Sefringle 00:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
But talk pages of articles are there to discuss hoe to improve the article and not to publish original thought. If someone is using the talk page for a purpose other than to discuss how to improve the article, then, yes, those comments could and should be removed. DreamGuy 03:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not the be-all and end-all of the internet
Wikipedia is not the internet
I bring these two up because of something I noticed: a tendency of internet users to pretty much assume that the internet is entirely composed off of a particular favorite site. My sister in law favors Yahoo, in this regard, for example, and figures that if you don't have a Yahoo email address, you probably don't exist on the 'net. Expand on this - in many AfD arguments, people will not only assume that this is a great place to dump data for hosting sake, are surprised when it lands in AfD, and will defend it to no end with all of the arguments found in WP:AADD as their rationale to keep the articles. -- Dennis The Tiger ( Rawr and stuff) 20:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we conclude from this official policy, that wikipedia is not a place to create pages with titles like "Islamic commands" where to list all Islamic religous commands, and things like that? (I don't mean to offend moslims here, this is just a fictional example.) huji— TALK 07:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to follow "Wikipedia is not censored" with its counterpoint. Controversial images should only be included when they serve an encyclopedic purpose. We've all seen the prudes complaining that we're corrupting the youth and need to remove the paintings of naked ladies, but the other side of the coin is the people who put controversial images in an article where they don't really serve any informative purpose, and then defend them aggressively with a big stupid fight about how Wikipedia isn't censored and we shouldn't cater to the prudish Americans and blah blah. Wikipedia is not a mission for evangelizing the unwashed masses to our superior Western mores. Our purpose is not to proselytize to the world and convert their primitive minds to our free, uninhibited ways. It's to provide information in a neutral manner. When shocking or controversial images are important to the topic of an article, by all means include them, but don't be controversial just for the sake of being controversial. — Omegatron 02:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
In thinking about the recent afd Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre I realized that it might be helpful to add a sentence or two to the WP:MEMORIAL section to clarify the difference between an individual memorial or obituary and summary information about victims of tragedies.
WP:MEMORIAL currently reads "Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered." This clearly excludes obituary and memorial for individuals who are not otherwise somehow notable.
However, where confusion comes up is whether or how this affects victim lists or other summary information about the victims of a tragedy that involves multiple deaths. My opinion, which seemed to be in the majority in the afd I mentioned above, is that the list of victims of a tragedy is an important part of the historical background of the event. In an informational way it performs a similar function to the cast list of a film or television series by providing very basic information on everyone involved. Therefore I think it's important to have that information easily available in some form to people interested in reading about the event that caused the deaths.
The main criteria is probably the size of the list and of the event's article. If the list of names can be comfortably included within the article, then that is the best option. If the list is fairly large, but not so large as to be unmanagable, and there is interesting or useful auxilliary information about the victims, then I think a list article supplementing the main article is the best option. Finally, if the list is particularly long, such as with an event that involves hundreds or thousands of deaths or more, then the list as a whole should probably be placed instead as an openly available source document at Wikisource that articles about the event can interlink to for reference.
So all that being said, I'd like to suggest the following rewording of WP:MEMORIAL -
"Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of individual encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered. Information on dead individuals should be objective, free of overly emotional opinion, and from independently published reliable sources. In the special case of victims of notable tragedies, the victims' names should normally appear, space permitting, within the event's article. For tragic events with larger numbers of victims which will not fit comfortably within the space of the main article, the list of victims should be split off either onto Wikisource as a reference page or, if there is sufficient encyclopedic treatment of the list entries, as a list article supplementing the main article."
So what do you guys think? Feel free to agree or disagree or critique my proposed wording. Thanks! Dugwiki 17:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a somewhat long comment, but I simply have to point out something that has bothered me for a few years now. I did not find a comment like this yet, but if I am repeating a previous comment please forgive me...
I think Wikipedia is a great forum for sharing informatation and providing a starting point for students to further investigate subjects on their own. However, I would like to make the case that Wikipedia is not suitable to be used as a bibliographical reference or footnote in essays, papers, articles, etc., under most circumstances. I am starting to see a lot of footnotes and or bibliographical references to Wikipedia in my students' reports, and I have instructed my students that citing Wikipedia as a reference is not a good practice for a couple of reasons.
First, since the content of a given article can change at any time, simply citing a Wikipedia article will not allow the reader (i.e. in this case, I am the reader) to refer back to the original material being cited. Afterall, citations aren't simply used to show that you did some actual reading and didn't just pull your material out of thin air. Citations are actually intended to allow the reader to go back to your referenced material to investigate for themselves. As a scientist, I often do this myself when reading research reports or articles. One remedy to this is to cite the date and time of the Wiki article being cited, but this seems quite cumbersome. If a book or journal article is referenced within a Wiki article, they should go to that original source if they want to reference something.
Second, the content of a given article has only been reviewed by the people who happen to have read the article. These people may or may not be well-informed on the subject, and there is no guarantee that a well-informed person has had a chance to correct any errors whenever you just happen to be looking at the article. For the most part, the articles I've seen on Wikipedia are pretty well-written, and articles in my area of expertise seem more-or-less accurate, but not always. We are probably all aware that some articles require serious editing, or some "vandal" has come along and intentionally inserted inaccurate information. Sometimes articles are simply deleted by the Wikipedia staff because they are very problematic for some reason.
On the positive side, I do encourage my students to read Wikipedia articles in subject areas that they are familiar with or have recently researched, so that they may contribute to the discussion or help to edit of the article. This is a good excercise in having a peaceful intellectual debate about a topic they have researched in the past. Furthermore, the international aspect of the user communtity is a great way to remind students that it's a big (or small) world.
One final comment/story: A colleague of mine is taking a graduate course in biogeochemistry at a "well-reputed" institution, and one of the instructors was listing important numbers that they should all know. One of these was the total volume of the Earth's oceans. My colleague noted to a classmate later that the number didn't look right, and indeed their text book listed a number several orders of magnitude greater. Other text books also suggested the instructor's number was way off. When my colleague searched the internet, the only citation that came up with a number close to what the professor used was Wikipedia - in fact it was the exact same number. So obviously the instructor did not even use her own text book to get this number - and obviously no one had corrected the number on the Wikipedia page yet. So I'd also like to suggest that university professors should at least refer to their own text books when providing information to students. But please feel free to contribute or edit content on Wikipedia :).
Thanks for "listening"
Beth Rogers 23:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC) Beth Rogers
No, I don't think people should cite it, and I don't think people should cite Britannica, either -- the error rate there isn't very good. People shouldn't be citing encyclopedias in the first place. Wikipedia and other encyclopedias should be solid enough to give good, solid background information to inform your studies for a deeper level. And really, it's more reliable to read Wikipedia for background than to read random Web pages on the Internet.
Is there a policy on image-naming conventions that would settle whether it's permissible to include the name of the author and contributor of an image in the image's filename? The author/contributor in question is also a Wikipedia editor who uses his real name as his userid, and includes this name in the image's filename, so that the filename for a picture of a Corvette, for example, would be Corvette_by_[User's]_[Name].jpg .
I AGF, but also wonder if the purpose might not be self-promotion: a Google search on the editor's real name returns hits for the image files on Wikipedia precisely because the author has included his name in the image's filename. I note that in several articles the editor has without explanation substituted his own work for perfectly adequate images. Doing so has not appreciably improved the articles, but it has, of course, replaced the file with one bearing the editor's name and increased his visibility on the web.
In fact, on other websites the user advertises his work as a photographer by inviting people to view his work at Wikipedia -- and to visit his Wikipedia userpage, which raises the possibility that the userpage itself may be being used for self-promotion, contrary to WP:NOT#USER.
I have hunted around without much success for relevant policies, and while I suspect WP:NOT#SOAP is probably applicable, I'm wondering if there are other more precisely on point. Is there a policy on claiming authorship that might be applicable? -- Rrburke( talk) 17:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
A user continuously suggests that Bob Dylan be removed from the List of notable converts to Christianity. He either does not understand or simply chooses to ignore the fact that the criterion for inclusion on the list is highlighted in the introductory paragraph:
The list is simply a record of notable conversions, not a listing for continued belief. Many people have continued in their faith, and some have surely lost interest or left the religion. The list notes such a change in a person's entry.
As we have 12 or so sources which say that Dylan did convert, 3 or so which explicitly say that he was baptized and describe the people and circumstances surrounding it (2 of which are widely-known, published sources), and since the opposing party has shown no sources which deny this conversion (nor have they shown sources for anything), the fact that he converted is no longer up for debate, by Wikipedia's standards.
However, this user consistently claims that including Dylan on the list violates WP:SOAPBOX. He continues to claim that we are using the article to insidiously proselytize by 'sneaking in' non-Christians. As I have said, despite being told the criterion for inclusion numerous times, the user continues to assume that one must currently be a Christian to be on this list.
Let's assume we can forget the fact that the article has, for quite some time before this argument initiated, included people who the article explicitly claimed 'have left Christianity'.
The user claims Dylan's inclusion on the list is an attempt to "endorse/advocate Christianity". We continuously explain the purpose of the list, and the criterion for inclusion- we include anyone whose conversion can be verified by reliable sources (the list needs work, and needs citations, but we're working on it). Also, the question remains- how can one be endorsing Christianity by showing someone who has left the faith? (Let's pretend that the other side of the argument will verify Dylan's return to Judaism with sources)
The list is simply a list. It is not a tool for proselytizing. It intends to show notable people who have converted to Christianity at some point in their lives. There is no deception- the intro paragraph makes the criterion clear and notes that not everyone on the list has continued in the faith, and the individual listings make it quite clear that the person listed later left the faith. This list is not being used to proselytize. It is being used as a reference hub.
It's also worth noting that the user constantly incorporates religion into the argument. Yes, the article is about religious conversion, but the user will continuously use the historical and theological relationship of Judaism and Christianity as a part of his argument. He continues to make it into a very personal issue, and makes it seem as if we are 'insulting Judaism'.
I will present a list of his quotes, for full understanding. I have not taken these statements out of context (although it should be noted that although several of these quotes came before published sources were added, and he therefore denied the veracity of the online sources, he has still expressed these same views, even now):
(I noted the apparent bias here, and he stood behind this statement.)
The only person who continues to pretend in the light of sources is this user. He has offered zero sources to support his statements. Additionally, he ignores everything which is explained to him, and he continues in his argument. He appears to be biased in favor of Judaism, and his argument seems to be largely driven by personal belief. He feels that it is advocacy to have a list that considers only conversion, not continued belief. However, he is not seen complaining about the List of vegans article, which lists anyone who has ever committed to veganism, despite their current status. I doubt we'll see him on that talk page crying 'advocacy!' once this discussion is over. (And this is a list which I have mentioned to him several times.)
This user wants to remove a person who converted to Christianity from a list of people who have converted to Christianity. Who is violating WP:SOAPBOX?
Please share your comments on this. Those on my side of the fence are constantly accused of violating WP:SOAPBOX, and I for one am injecting no religious bias into this discussion. -- C.Logan 19:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
If you were to change the title from "List of notable converts to Christianity."
to "List of notable people who have at some time converted to Christianity"
would not the problem go away? NB. This is not the first article I have seen where the name of the article does not seem to be in perfect harmony with the definition just below. DanielDemaret 14:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Would it be OK to add that, with regard to future books, recordings, films, etc., the subject should have a definite (confirmed and verifiable) name, and be due for publication/release in the current year? There's been a number of additions of the form So-and-so's third album, or of albums to be released some time in 2008 (after other not-yet-released albums). Some articles are moved three or four times before their subjects are finally released.
These articles on future items are often real pains, being fought over by fans concerning their contents, nature, names, etc. I'd rather see a policy to the effect that we should only have articles on things that exist and events that have occurred; future things and events can be mentioned and discussed in other articles (such as articles on writers, actors, or singers). -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 21:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems that it is not true anymore that wikipedia is not censored. In particular the hex number [hex removed as unnecessary] is screened for. I don't know when/who/how this changed and I don't think it is a change for the better. -- MarSch 14:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Say, not to get too far off-topic, but I just noticed that user Wimt, a non-admin, just reverted someone else's text in this thread apparently without their permission. Now I can understand if an admin or higher-up deletes or alters text on an article talk page, but it seems a little less kosher for a non-admin to do it. I didn't un-revert the change, since it's possible an admin would agree with the deletion, but I just wanted to post this as a general thought on who should or shouldn't alter otherwise apparently good-faith text (ie not obvious vandalism). Dugwiki 22:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
The illegal numbers at illegal prime aren't being censored. Is the hd-dvd key number somehow more special than those? -- MarSch 13:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
We should add to the chrystal ball section that the arguement "it has potential" should be invalid, because it hasn't happened yet.-- Sefringle 06:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is being abused, as if it were a social networking site like myspace. Many people have begun to use wikipedia as such, due to the fact that it is not blocked on institutional servers (e.g. schools). I've had issues with social networkers and harassment, recently. I would request that someone take this issue seriously. If this is allowed to continue, wikipedia's servers may be put at risk. These people are wasting bandwidth and server space, only to use wikipedia as if 'twere myspace. Please, someone, take this seriously! Respond to me on my talk page. There are numerous users who are using wikipedia as a social networking site, and this is clearly against policy WP:not#socialnet. Not to mention, a few of these people have been harassing me, as I've said. I want to keep this strictly encyclopedic, and being attacked by a couple of kids makes me want to quit wikipedia for good. Fuzzform 07:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
It might seem unbelievable that people are putting product prices in Wikipedia, but see here. What part of WP:NOT covers this, and if nothing explicitly covers this, what is the best way to add something to reinforce the view that this is decidely not what Wikipedia is for? With the caveat that it is possible to discuss price wars, changing economic prices over decades of inflation, and such matters, in an encyclopedic fashion, but simply listings and comparisons of prices are not acceptable. Carcharoth 23:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
It strikes me as a thin end of the wedge' problem. How long before a dispute over whether motor vehicle prices are listed, and then how long until the dispute over whether it's the list price that's listed or the average drive away price. That will be followed by a request for the average resale value to be added. Wii and MS points are just another bit of cruft that will open the door to comparative cash prices for video games and then items other than video games, to be listed with a price. It needs stopping before it gets out of hand and becomes an indiscriminate collection of prices. - X201 08:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
"It was sold in the beginning at a price of $850 when competing cars often cost $2000-$3000. By the 1920s the price had fallen to $300 (about $3,300 in 2005 inflation-adjusted dollars)"
My 10 pence - I see listing prices as a subset of indiscriminate information. Unless the price is genuinely notable (as with the Model T example). To go with the cause of this discussion, the Wii points, each console has a different price for it's games, BUT that price remains the same in all but 2 examples. As I said elsewhere, listing 25 identical prices just because the 26th is different strikes me as completely ridiculous. Sentences stating 'N64 games cost 1000 points' etc can esaily be included in a genereal overview, and the 2 games that have different prices can easily have a sentence stating the different pricing in their individual articles. Allowing lists Wii points/XBox points/any other type of pricing in ANY form of currency just opens the door for a whole mess of other crap exists inclusions. So I think that not only should a new entry be added to allow removal of pricing information (of which I'm finding a lot of Browser-based game articles also list, which also smacks of advertising), but that it also specifically be worded to include prices in 'points'. The wording would definitly need to be as unambiguous as possible. After all, something is either a price or it isn't, there isn't much middle ground. If prices ARE notable for some reason, they would still need to have been recorded as notable in independent sources to stay in line with policies, otherwise people could just list any old price. DarkSaber2k 11:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not a comparative price list for products. How the price of a product varies by retailers and geographic regions is not normally relevant to an encyclopedic article about it due to the constant fluctuation of prices and currency rates both locally and globally. Price information should therefore either not normally be included in product article or be limited in scope to price information that could be considered relevant in a broad economic sense, such as the manufacturer's original recommended price which is more likely to be used for analytical purposes."
That would get the main thing that we all agree on (avoiding catalog pricing and price lists, etc) but would leave available things like the MSRP which a lot of readers probably are interested in. Dugwiki 16:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Disagree with this - seems like it will only result in removal of valid, appropriate encyclopaedia-worthy prices (like RRPs of consoles at launch or car prices) and to mention this specifically will only lead to edit warring. - Halo 08:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Since the discussion has stalled a bit, let me try a new wording and see what people think:
"Wikipedia is not a sales catalogue, therefore prices of a product should not be quoted in an article unless there is a justified and sourced reason for mentioning the price. Examples of justified reasons include notable sales of rare collectors items, prices relating to discussion of a price war, and historical discussion of economic inflation. Everyday, street prices on the other hand are an example of ephemeral trivia that can vary widely from place to place and over time. In addition, Wikipedia is not a price guide to be used to compare the prices of competing products, or the prices of a single product across different countries or regions. Therefore lists of products currently on sale should not quote prices."
How does that sound? Carcharoth 21:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that in the "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" the shortcut says "WP:NOT#IINFO", with two I's. I changed it to "WP:NOT#INFO", but now " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOT#INFO" goes to the top of the page, whereas the misspelling, " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOT#IINFO" goes to the relivent section. Kevin 00:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
In a recent AFD discussion, a user declared that the Wikipedia "is not a shopping guide." I can see arguments for and against that statement, and was wondering what you think. Is the Wikipedia a shopping guide ? If not, there's a lot more to be done than just delete Comparison of time tracking software - What's the next step if the bulk of this category of articles linked to here should be removed? Big if, but I'm curious - Not at all sure where I stand. MrZaius talk 11:51, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Items on a list or comparison chart do not have to be notable in themselves. The topic of the list or chart has to be notable. See WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. The topic of the list or chart has to be specific. See again WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. A link back to the home page of an item on the list or chart is allowed just as any citation/reference link is allowed. Where people get confused is when the list drifts over into subjective analysis and reviews. Then the list or comparison chart becomes advertising or negative advertising. Then it needs to be cleaned up to remove the advertising language, reviews, and hype. This chart, Comparison of wiki farms, went through 3 deletion attempts until all these issues were discussed and addressed. I urge people to read the last deletion discussion where it was finally decided to keep the chart. Jimbo Wales created Wikia.com, a wiki farm. I found it somewhat amusing that I had to explain to wikipedians that the topics of wiki software and wiki farms are notable. Not every wiki farm on the list is as notable as wikia.com, but lists and charts do not have to have all notable items on them. Otherwise, wikipedia lists and charts would become supporters of only the largest companies with the best advertising budgets. Freeware and open source software would be at a great disadvantage. See again WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. That guideline says "there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List." I am sure that many people will not have heard of many of the people on the Nixon Enemies List. It is the list topic that is notable, not necessarily all those people listed. Concerning software lists and charts: They are not shopping charts or advertising, because the charts do not discuss the relative merits of one feature versus another, nor do they discuss how well any particular program implements any particular feature. It would be impossible for wikipedia to fairly do such subjective analysis anyway. The feature columns in many charts do show the state of the art, and are thus encyclopedic in nature. Wikipedia has the necessary large numbers of WP:NPOV editors necessary to keep such charts and lists up to date, and free from advertising hyperbole. For many of these lists and charts there is nowhere else on the web that one can find such an NPOV list or chart. Few companies would want to maintain lists on their websites where they favorably discuss their competition. Few magazines have enough time or editors for maintaining such lists or charts. -- Timeshifter 23:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Although it has been said that Wikipedia is WP:NOT#CENSORED, in reality the file $wgSpamRegex can be used to block the use of arbitrary phrases other than spam. [4] This spam block is imposed by the Developers [5], who are exempt from the need to form WP:Consensus. The list of phrases banned from Wikipedia under this mechanism is not public, and the identity of the offending blocked phrase will not be revealed to an editor when his edit is refused. [6] Phrases can be blocked by the developers on their own initiative in the absence of any policy or office action by the Wikimedia Foundation. [7] Community consensus to permit the use of a phrase on a particular page using the "Spam whitelist" mechanism is not sufficient to override this block, although administrators are free to appeal to the Wikimedia Foundation to order the repeal of a specific block if its nature is known. [8] The Developers act in a hierarchy that is largely independent of the Wikimedia Board of Trustees, with a small number of people determining who is granted or loses authority and access by a process that is not subject to public vote or notification. [9]
Please - either add this to your policy, or make it not so. Thank you. Mike Serfas 02:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm involved in an active discussion here over whether this section forbids all contact info from Wikipedia or whether an article can have a phone number and address (in this case a school article). I would appreciate some admin/community input as I am not absolutely solid on this particular policy. Adam McCormick 01:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Recently, myself and few other editors have instigated a cleanup of images and galleries in the Wikiproject Dog articles after reaching consensus that they needed monitoring. We agreed that per WP:NOT, galleries were causing more harm than aid as many articles constantly need policing against anons and users treating them as places to upload images of their pets willy-nilly. So far the cleanup has been successful, but it is still an uphill battle. I would like to propose adding a small sentence to WP:NOT specifically addressing this application of image policy to make dealing with this easier in the future. Maybe an addition to the fourth point of Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files section such as, "Wikipedia is not a gallery for personal images of you, your family, friends, pets or possessions ." Maybe with a point of explanantion similar to, "Just as a traditional paper encyclopedia refrains from illustrations of it's editors in its entries, personal images contributed to articles must have encyclopedic merit". There should also be some sort of qualifier to keep this from being used to prevent simply uploading self-related images, which of course does not violate policy and is done on a vast scale. VanTucky 22:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Are you aware of Wikipedia:Gallery? You could revive that if you like and remove the historical tag if you want and try and get it more widely known. I'm still not clear why that (and other guidelines) were marked inactive. It was part of large batch of inactivations carried out by User:Radiant, but I don't think anyone followed half of them up. Carcharoth 16:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The point is that Wikipedia is not censored period. Not for kids, nor for adults, not for good taste, not for poor taste, not for anything. >Radiant< 11:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is censored and often even discussion about exactly what is censored is censored. To discuss really gross, libelous, dangerous or illegal material in detail is to publish it. To give an example that will be readily evident, we don't permit messages from pedophiles soliciting sex with children or discuss the details of such messages in a public forum. Fred Bauder 14:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I wish I could remember a time where people weren't immature. - Yancyfry
Here is an example of what I was saying. DON'T CLICK THE LINK ON THE PAGE! [11] What have I told you? Pornography is one of the poisons of America. If you don't believe that, than think of it as one of the things people, teenagers, are too immature about. They shouldn't even see porn, but this is the days we live in. - Yancyfry
Is this really necessary at this time?-- Sefringle 02:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
With the "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball" policy. I have seen way too many film articles that have received "no consensus" on the grounds that "crystal ball" doesn't apply when you have "references", because of the part in the policy that says you cannot have "unverified" content. The problem that I see, is that CRYSTAL doesn't address that issue. Obviously you need verifiable content, but having 20 sources say the same thing "So-n-so company wants to make more films in this series" doesn't constitute the film coming out. The same could be said for television programs, and music. Just because a studio says they want to make more doesn't mean that it is going to happen. There are a lot of associated factors that tie-in with the production of another product. My case examples is Spider-Man 4. Sony announced that they were going to make more films, 4, 5, and 6. No one has a contract beyond 3, and no one has said anything other than "if they have a good story, and everyone is brought back...then I'd do it". This seems like something best reserved for another articles (say Spider-Man film series). But, the current AfD on it includes constant votes of "keep" on the grounds that "it has a lot of verifiable sources". They're right, it has 12 sources, all doing nothing more than suggesting what might be if they do make more films. It seems to me that speculation is still speculation, even when it's sourced, and speculation is nothing more than a big guess in the dark. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 12:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Another element people have to think about is how notable a project is to have its own article. Spider-Man 4 is currently well-served in two paragraphs on the film series page. Alientraveller 15:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
But see, it shouldn't just be about "unverified" information. The purpose of the analogy is that Wikipedia cannot predict the future, and citing sources that don't even predict the future for us doesn't change that. I can have a source, reliable, that says a company wants to put out a film, but that source isn't predicting the film will be released, it's just stating people want to make it. If the purpose of Crystal ball isn't about whether something will or will not be made, then made that needs to be corrected in the article, as most people see it as that. As for it not being about where the information lies, well why does it initially go on to talk about whether future information "merits its own article" and then later doesn't explain if the "discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, provided that discussion is properly referenced" merits its own article, or should be merged into a more comprehensive one. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 02:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let's create consensus that plot summaries should be brief. his is an encyclopedia, and articles about works of fiction need not include scene-by-scene summaries of events. See, for example, much too lengthy plot summaries at Saw 3 or Dead Calm (film). Please allow the word "brief" to be added to this policy. Thanks. Not a dog 16:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Could we say that Wikipedia is also Not a lyric book? That just came to my mind. Tell me if you think that should not be in the article. Thanks. -- ASDFGHJKL= Greatest Person Ever+ Coolest Person Ever 02:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, ok. Thanks. -- ASDFGHJKL= Greatest Person Ever+ Coolest Person Ever 02:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Somebody suggested merging Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not aniconistic into Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not censored. I am against this merge, as this warrents its own section at a minimum. It would be better to just add it somewhere else on WP:NOT, or to not move it at all.-- Sefringle 02:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the comment, Sefringle. I am inclined to agree. -- ProtectWomen 06:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible to make a subsection of Not Censored or perhaps a section right below it. I would say this is definitely major. Let's not forget how people lost their lives in riots relating to iconisist (and admittedly racist) cartoons. We need to come down with concrete policy so as to avoid gray areas in the future. That having been said, we have disputes over matters of BC/AD versus BCE/CE all the time and we have policy in place (actually as I look at it it seems to be up for discussion as well), but the issue of images, utterances/typing of ineffable names, this is a very major issue that has to come under a major discussion. -- Valley2city ₪‽ 19:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
No merge please, one is policy, one is an essay, and one I disagree with, at that.--
Manboobies 12:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the articles in Category:Glossaries, e.g. Glossary of BDSM clearly contradicts this point.
Either the policy needs to be updated or the articles that are clearly lists of dictionary definitions should be removed.
-- nyenyec ☎ 19:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we have something like "Wikipedia is not a children's encyclopaedia. Do not oversimplify language with the purpose of ensuring a five-year old child is fully able to comprehend it. If an article uses specialized jargon, an explanation would be advisable, do not however remove the terms for fear of misapprehension."? Far too often I've seen articles that make me want to bang my head against a wall, it's like an epidemic. + Hexagon1 ( t) 23:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)