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I am unsure of the specific impalementation of this policy in the case of television episodes. In an article about a specific television episode, is information about that episode not implicitly verifiable? If not, how is the episode supposed to be sourced?
The nature of this question is that Hell Comes to Quahog has been the location of a voracious edit war this past hour or so, dealing with the fact that one editor believes that content in the Notes and Cultural References sections of the article ( pre edit-war version) is in violation of WP:V (among other policies). I am not a participant in the edit war, though I am trying to bring it to a resolution.
Thanks in advance for any help! – Dvandersluis 17:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Family Guy is one television shows page that should include all these cultural references and notes as some of the material used on the show is so abstract not everyone understands it ,so the episode page can be a point of reference and explanation. It is not a retelling of the joke, but more information the the reference in the joke. Since Family Guy is weak on plot, these cultural references are necessary. So basically the note and cultural references should remain
216.177.121.212
18:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no problem using works of fiction as a source, provided that the edits conform to the established
policies and guidelines. Some of the relevant sections are quoted below.
WP:WAF - a guideline, tells us "Wikipedia policy on verifiabilityrequires that articles "rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." However, articles written from an in-universe perspective are overly reliant on the fiction itself as a primary source. Lacking as they are in any critical analysis of the subject, these articles may invite original research. In other words, lacking critical analysis from secondary sources, Wikipedia editors and fans of the subject often feel compelled to provide such analysis themselves."
WP:WAF-- "This often involves using the fiction to give plot summaries, character descriptions or biographies, or direct quotations. This is not inherently bad, provided that the fictional passages are short, are given the proper context, and do not constitute the main portion of the article. If such passages stray into the realm of interpretation, secondary sources must be provided to avoid original research. Note that when using the fictional work itself to write these descriptions the work of fiction must be cited as a source."
WP:OR a policy, states-- "Any facts, opinions, interpretations, definitions, and arguments published by Wikipedia must already have been published by a reliable publication in relation to the topic of the article."
WP:OR-- "An article or section of an article that relies on primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on entirely primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions."
So as long as you are only describing something that happens in the episode and you follow the directions at WP:CITE for citing the source in the references section, then you may use the episode itself as a source. If however, you want to say that 1 work is an allusion/ homage/ parody of or to another work, then you must find a reliable 3rd party source that has already published that connection and cite that as a source. If you watch an episode and think that scene A looks like scene B in another show, you might be correct but to add that to the encyclopedia (absent a reliable 3rd party source that has already published that connection) is considered original research and is subject to removal. Please stop by the trivia cleanup project and check out what we are doing. Also, please check out Make Love, Not Warcraft which has been cleaned of cruft and is now being reviewed as a Good Article candidate. Cheers. L0b0t 21:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
While family guy does need to be cleaned up quite a bit, I also believe that some sort of cultural reference section is needed so people have an easy and quick place to go to check upon a joke they that calls upon something they know nothing or little about. So while the note category should probably be fixed, the cultural references are a well used tool for deciphering some of the randomness of the show Grande13 22:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there is a verifiability issue here for things that happen in an episode. Some fairly obvious references seem to fall into a grey area for verifiability. I think the real issue here is that we need to limit the amount of these notes. --
Ned Scott
05:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a problem with the all-purposefulness of this "official policy"
I have a repeating problem with someone who feels he has the unquestioned right to undo any edits in a tech article where he sees no citations. And he comments his undos with the note "see WP:Verifiability".
An example: As someone who has years of experience on a specific topic, I have learned, partly from my own deductions, that certain things can be done. So I described them by adding them to an existing article. He, who has never heard (or thought) of this, undid my edit, asking me to provide a citation.
However, I can't provide a citation because it rather "new research", done by me or other with special knowledge, experience or understand. In this case, I then had to add explanations to the Talk page so others could follow my deductions to make this person realize that his undoing my edit was inappropriate.
Unfortunately, that same person has now again undone another's additions, although I fully agreed with those added statements, meaning that they were quite correct. Again, the said person removed them with the reasoning that there's no cititation to be found. Yet, more experienced people would understand that the newly added statements were correct.
On both cases it appears that the undoer is not able to comprehend the issue well, but still feels he must control it. Sure, there's also the need to educate this person that he should first ask, and only undo someone's edit after it has been discussed. But that's not my point here.
My point is: It should be made clear that this policy does not ALWAYS apply. In the cases I described, there is simply no citation to be found, yet they were correct. I do not like others to think they can question technical statements by a simple (and rather blind) reference to this policy.
Can something be done about this, please?
-- Tempel 14:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, since I've now brought up the issue with the undo edit on the affected page, I might as well refer to it now from here. It's File_Allocation_Table. The two cases I meant were deductions that could be made from working with the FAT system. To someone who works with this enough, he'll simply agree that the things are what they are. In detail, these were:
I just realized that the person who undid my first edit referred also to Wikipedia:No_original_research. This he did when I argued that from reading the specification on the FAT file system, one could deduce the limitations I had described. Somehow, I had the impression he's not able to know the difference between a specification and a interpretation. He did quote the interpretation the the truth and the deduction from the spec incorrect. So, what would you suggest here? There was not quote to find to support what I had written, yet it could be deduced from a spec or by "reading" things readily available, even if they're not present as an article on the web or in another known form of publication. And the person I fought this over with simply said "you did original research and that does not belong in WP". Is he right? -- Tempel 14:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Can we add either "question" or "challenge" to the third point of the nutshell so it reads: "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to question and/or remove it." ? Harryboyles 09:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Regulars to this page may be interested in this proposal. Please comment on the talk page there. jguk 21:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to amend the first sentence from
to
as I believe it's more important to emphasise that these policies work hand-in-hand rather than the number of them. jguk 13:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
These three policies are our three content policies, so I do not see the need to change the wording. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOT is one of our fundamental policies, but it is not really a content policy. This formulation has had the support of the community for quite a while, and I do not see what is prompting the need for that change. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm suggesting that the important thing to note is that V, NOR and NPOV complement each other. They work hand-in-hand. Hence the suggested revised wording. jguk 12:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I support the change. The number isn't important and it's accuracy is debatable (it doesn't matter if it is accurate or not, this debate proves it's debatable), so it might as well be removed. -- Tango 23:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The three are so tied together they should be made into a single policy. Efforts to join at least two of them is ingoing. The point is that they are tightly interconnected; not that they are "main". As they are not more important than the policies which say to stay legal by not invading the privacy of nonpublic persons (BLP), not breaking IP laws (mainly copyright), and not defaming (people and corporations). WAS 4.250 00:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi.
Does "self-published" sources include publishing your research in an academic journal? Also, why the prohibition, anyway? Is it because there is no way to check the accuracy of such things, at least not in a Wikipedia-compatible way (because Wikipedia is NOT a peer reviewer for reference sources, Wikipedia is just an ENCYCLOPEDIA)? 70.101.147.74 03:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Robert West wrote that is OK to use a primary source in WP, provided " its interpretation does not require special expertise." This is not quite true. It's perfectly OK if the reader will need special expertise to interpret a passage that is a direct quote or close paraphrase of a primary source; it is only if the editor is using specialist expertise to interpret the source that there is a problem. Also note that when editors discuss a passage on a talk page, it is not unusual for the editors to have specialist knowledge, and the conversation may very well be unintelligible to a reader chosen at random. -- Gerry Ashton 23:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
In the subsection WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper) JBKramer added the following sentence:
However, for articles that are about content that was published first and even exclusively on blogs, linking to the specified blogs is not only acceptable, but practically a requirement.
I feel this is overly broad. For the most part, content that has been exclusively published in blogs should not have a Wikipedia article about it. -- Gerry Ashton 02:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
ElectricEye, not everything that is unreferenced is likely to be challenged. That 2 plus 2 is 4 is not likely to be challenged. The phrase implies that a degree of common sense is needed. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at the Somali clans where they start listing Prominent figures. You'd think common sense says to remove the unverified information to the talk page for discussion, verification and the results written into the article. Not the other way around. -- Electric Eye ( talk) 05:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been following this closely, but I see that the following change has been made: "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to challenge or remove it." Can someone give a short, clear summary of why this change was made? It seems quite odd to me. -
Jmabel |
Talk
07:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
There's one section of this page that has long been a bugbear of mine - largely because it is so confusing. Those used to teaching people or taking people through new topics will know that once you have confused someone on a key concept, it takes a lot to get them unconfused. Much better to lay down what you mean in a clear, unambiguous logical format first.
The passage I don't like is:
The confusing bit is the "not truth". It seems weird to state upfront that WP does not care about truth. Of course, that's not what it means, but then there's nothing other than the "not truth" bit, in bold font, that a new reader has to work on to understand what we mean. It's no surprise that even those who defend keeping a reference to the point in the policy freely admit that many WPians are confused on the point, and no mistake that it is listed as the most frequently asked question on WP:ATT/FAQ.
We really should address this confusion, and after much thought, I think I have a formula that has a fair chance of succeeding. The revised text (absent bolding) would be:
I reckon that this covers the key point of the "not truth" bit, and yet, by explaining it rather than stating it as a stark statement, means that there would be little confusion. jguk 14:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The rationale has to come as soon as the concept of "not truth" is introduced. Otherwise, you start by introducing confusion. A slight reordering of what you suggest (and either removing the bold font or putting the first two clauses in bold too) could achieve this (although I think my initial suggestion is better still):
jguk 17:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
My original wording addresses this point:
jguk 18:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I think this issue needs to be discussed further because it has been raised in the debate taking place at Wikipedia:Speedy deletion criterion for unsourced articles.
Using internal links to another article which contain the sources for a statment is very common in Wikipedia articles. An example given in the earlier discussion was let us suppose that there is an article called Ten highest mountains in Africa and that, that list had been derived from 100 sources, with a detailed analysis of why those particular peaks have been chosen for the Wikipedia list. The current wording of this plolicy implies that all 100 sources need to be included in every article which mentions the list of 10 highest mountains in Africa. Placing every reference in every article for every Wikipedia link used as a source becomes a real maintenance issue: suppose that the sources for the list changes, then it would be necessary to edit all the subsidiary articles which use the list as well as the list itself. In day to day editing of Wikipedia articles, people are willing to accept statements like "mountain xyz is the fourth highest mountain in Africa", because they are willing to follow the link to the parent article for the sources. Only if the link article (parent article) does not have adequate sources are they likely to demand under this policy that the statement in the child article contain a third party source for verification. I think that this policy needs changing to reflect this because many/most articles rely to a lesser or greater extent on this premise.
There is of course a limit to how many nested links one should have to follow to find third party sources. I think that only a single link should be allowed, otherwise there is a danger of recursion where a circular link is created with no third party source cited for a disputed fact.
Some article types which rely very heavily on the use of links providing sources are:
If this policy is taken at face value then all disimbaguation pages need third party sources, unless one is willing to interpret the phrases: 2 Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor.. 3 The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to challenge and/or remove it. to mean, as they do in practice, that an internal link can be used to provide reliable sources.
To stop pedants using WP:V as a club (and wasting a lot of time on reverts and talk page discussions), I think that it is necessary to include in this policy a statement, that reflects how Wikipedia links are already used, that third party sources can be provided by in-line links to other Wikipedia articles that already contain adequate third party sources.
-- Philip Baird Shearer 12:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't agree with the addition of "Reliable sources can be provided by an in-line link to another Wikipedia article that already contain adequate third-party sources" into the policy box.
Although true, I don't think it is as essential as the other three points already in the box. Plus, some will inevitably misunderstand it to mean that it is uniformly desirable to have internal links as sources.
I wouldn't be so concerned, however, if the text were removed from the policy box and placed later down in the discussion of the policy. jguk 13:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed a numbered item that encouraged providing a reliable source by linking to another Wikipedia article that has the source. With the specific exceptions of dab pages and articles written in
WP:Summary style, this is a generally bad practice, because there is no guarantee that the source will remain in the target article. It also encourages laziness, because the target article may not use the source accurately.
Robert A.West (
Talk)
17:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
There's discussion of this up above at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Internal_links_to_third_party_sources. Can we somehow merge the discussions? jguk 17:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I am aware of the daisy-chain problem if you look at the previous discussions you will see an example I gave ( Bundesland), which is why I phrased the addition the way I did: "Reliable sources can be provided by an in-line link to another Wikipedia article that already contain adequate third-party sources." as this removes the daisy-chain problem. It is also phrased in such a way that it is not the tertiary information in the Wikipedia in-line link article that is being cited, but the adequate third-party sources in the inline-link article. -- Philip Baird Shearer 12:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
There are five cases where one article might rely on another for verifiability. Some are valid, and others are bad practice. Two of the valid cases I would class as "navigational aids" rather than "articles." If the intention of the addition I reverted was to provide for the valid cases, then I think it was unfortunately phrased. In that event, it could be mentioned as a set of exception farther on down.
Cases 1-4 are valid exceptions, although 3 and 4 are not complete exceptions. Case 5 is what I meant by "very bad practice." I have been guilty of that particular sin myself, but that does not mean that doing so improves Wikipedia. Robert A.West ( Talk) 05:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Robert, clearly you have not been involved in the debate about Wikipedia:Speedy deletion criterion for unsourced articles, because it is a problem, believe me if it is not spelt out in this policy page then if that idea is implemented expect all the type of pages you have mentioned above to be flagged for deletion as they do not meet the WP:V policy. It is no good arguing as you have above that custom and guidelines (eg the above example Wikipedia:Summary style#Citations and external links | already covered) cover it, because custom and guidelines are not policy. The policy needs adjustment to reflect the real Wikipedia world and as it stands at the moment almost all of what you say above fail the policy test of "1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it."
Many articles are both articles in their own right, but also contain lists or are in part summary pages. Above you write "IMO, pass without a citation, because the fact is trivially checked using obvious works of general reference that nearly everyone has. Its the sort of fact that is not "likely to be challenged." Using a wikilink to reinforce the point is harmless." The trouble with this is who defines what is trivially checked out. For example the an article might state "A mercenary is an unlawful combatant." or " Napoleon Bonaparte lost the Battle of Waterloo." or "There is no positive international law banning the use of depleted uranium sabot rounds" or " Charles I was executed on January 30 1649". What is an obvious fact to someone and easy to look up in a reference that they have, is to another an obscure fact which is why they are reading the article on Wikipedia and the link provides an easy way to check the fact in a reference that they posses. This policy should reflect the everyday fact that this is how pages in wikipedia are structured using in-line links to other more detailed accounts. This article " meta:wiki is not paper" has an interesting section ( Style and functionality) which say:
For example, CMS (the Chicago Manual of Style) tells the writer or editor to briefly gloss, or explain, the first use of an abbreviation (as just demonstrated with "CMS"). Jargon can be treated similarly. This treatment makes a lot of sense on paper: If an article mentions an arcane subject or if it uses an abbreviation or jargon, the reader may need to know more about it, and so giving a full name or a cross-reference will help find it. But Wikipedia has something even better than a parenthetical gloss of just a few words: an electronic link to a thorough treatment of the subject. paper-based publishing style:
It is unclear if IBM's code page 437 (a character code set) was based on the VT-220 terminal (a computer input/output device) of DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation), or if the reverse was the case.
Wikipedia publishing style:
It is unclear if IBM's code page 437 was based on the VT220 terminal of DEC, or if the reverse was the case.
I think that this argument also applies to references. -- Philip Baird Shearer 19:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing out that you are aware of the problem, in which case I fail to see why you write "The proposed paragraph seems to be solving a problem we have not seen, at the risk of exacerbating a problem we have". The proposals at (Speedy deletion criterion for unsourced articles) seemed to have been added after I raised this issue on the talk page ( 88155683). But I notice that in the latest proposal [ #4 (23:37, 21 November 2006 208.20.251.27)] that the wording is now "The process should not be applied to disambiguation pages or those written in summary style" The trouble with this wording is that an article may be written in summary style, but the in-line references may be to wikipedia links which do not contain any third party sources! (see for example this version of List of War Crimes (Revision as of 13:44, 21 March 2006) this is clearly unnaccptable and it does not cover summary style articles which link in-line to summary style artiles (the diasy-chain problem). The proposed wording I have suggested for this policy covers text in all article, (removing the potential problem of a policy relying on guidlines for policy statments eg "what is a summary page?") and does away with the problem of an in-line Wikipedia link pages not containin adequate third party sources. -- Philip Baird Shearer 21:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The "SDcdfua" is only tangential to this policy page. However it highlights a problem with this policy. The experienced editors who edit this page tend to be practical experienced editors who are more than capable of making sensible judgements about when a piece of text needs a third party citation. But as experienced editors they are also immersed in the current culture of editing Wikipedia pages, and, often without realising it, they interpret Wikipedia policies and guidelines with a lens which includes custom. However when it becomes clear that the wording of a policy is far removed from what is done on a day to day basis when editing pages, then I think the policy should be altered to reflect best practice. Most experienced editors accept a sentence or paragraph which uses in-line links to well sourced Wikipedia article, as reliably sourced. They are only likely to object if the sentence draws a "novel narrative or historical interpretation." or "Surprising or apparently important claims that are not widely known" that are not directly supported by the in-line links. In such a case they will demand a citation from reliable sources even if the in-line links are well sourced e.g. "The moon is a satellite of the earth and it is made of cheddar cheese". My suggested changes will not protect such sentences. But they will save the need to put in citations for such statements as "At the end of the Potsdam Conference, the Allies issued an ultimatum to Japan". Adding a sentence reflecting the wide spread acceptance of such in-line Wikipedia references into this policy will stop the need for guidlines like "SDcdfua" to add a complicated clause to put into words what is the customary interpretation by experienced editors of WP:V. This change, to bring into line the Verifiability policy with its customary interpretation, will help stop trolls and well intentioned inexperienced editors wasting everyone's time. -- Philip Baird Shearer 07:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The wording I am proposing does not suggest that the content of the Wikipedia in-line article that is being used as a source, but the third party sources in that article. There is nothing exceptional about this, it is what is done in many (most?) articles to a greater or lesser extent. -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | → | Archive 20 |
I have removed the word "third-party" from the sentence: "If an article topic has no reliable, third-party source Wikipedia should not have an article on it." I'm not sure how it got to be added, but I think it must have been in error. WP:V is not a notability criterion - notability is dealt with on other page. The verifiability requirement is, and should be, for a reliable source. If a source is not 3P there may (or may not) be some question marks over its reliability. Indeed, we are likely to be more rigorous in assessing its reliability. But if the source is reliable, it is good enough to be used. jguk 17:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Re. the latest removal by Jguk. Would it not be better to say reliable secondary sources, as an article with only primary sources is a very bad idea and just inviting original research? L0b0t 17:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that articles that rely only on self-published sources by people or organizations with a vested interest in the subject of the article are bad, and sources that are not technicallly self-published but are under the control of people or organizations with a vested interest are just as bad. I am concerned, however, that some readers of the policy might see the words third-party and think that sources written by a person with a vested interest, but published by an independent reputable publisher, are ruled out. It suffices that the publisher be a third-party; the author need not be. -- Gerry Ashton 20:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
"Third-party" only serves to confuse not clarify the issue. We have lived with primary and secondary for a long time. Adding another layer does not help the situation. Wjhonson 19:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The original formulation of "Verifiability, not truth" makes a very significant point. I do not see any substantial arguments that support its removal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The policy box (your second point) has been in this policy for over half a year. It makes it clear that the contents contains the policy, with the remainder of the text being discussion. It is aesthetically nice, and to the point.
Regarding your first point, the most important point of this policy is that claims should be referenced to a reliable source. Comments that this is not the same as reporting "the truth" may be important, but are a follow-on to the main point.
However, I would not oppose re-adding that point to the lead section if (1) it appeared as the second rather than first paragraph (see WP:LEAD); (2) the point was expressed in a clear way that is unlikely to confuse (and see above for suggested ways of explaining it briefly). jguk 10:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Yet again, there's an argument between "you changed the policy" and "I just reverted it to how it has been". If both sides are going to insist that you're not changing, but just reverting to "the status quo", could you provide diffs showing which "status quo" version you are reverting to? -- Milo H Minderbinder 17:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Over the last several months I have been observing business at WP:V and sometimes participating. One pattern I have seen several times now is that someone will edit WP:V in good faith, only to be immediately reverted by an admin claiming "no consensus, no consensus" (after only very brief discussion or no discussion), frequently followed by charges that the good faith editor is being disruptive. To be fair, these reverts are often justified, but could perhaps be handled more diplomatically. I don't believe that the majority of people (aside from vandals) trying to change WP:V are out to disrupt Wikipedia. Some are motivated by what they see as unfair treatment they received under the guise of WP:V, and they want to see changes so that no one has to suffer the same treatment that they suffered. In some cases, those changes may not be justified, but I believe that in all cases, it is important to try and understand the reasons why changes are being proposed.
I also see quite a number of changes to WP:V made by admins, generally made without any discussion to achieve consensus. I don't mean to accuse anyone of bad-faith, but rather, I hope my comments will be taken as an indication that everyone needs to work more at understanding the concerns of other editors, without prior assumptions, and admins need to work to avoid the appearance of a double standard. Wikipedia would be served better if more effort was made by all parties to make WP:V be a true record of consensus. dryguy 23:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm currently in discussion about a conclusion in an article which was drawn from some information available within confidential membership records of an organisation. Since these are not actually publicly available to everyone, they cannot readily be cited. However, it is possible to obtain the information for verification by approaching the said organisation and offering just cause to gain access to the records (at least, information from those records which do not reveal personal details like name or address). Would this be sufficient to meet the requirements of verifiability? Horus Kol 14:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
... at a Land Deed office, you can obtain a copy of a Deed without any cause, any member of the public can do so, with no justification. That is public information. That is, it has been "published" to "the public" by the Land Deed Office. With all due respect, I don't believe that "public" equals "published" - otherwise, the policy would use a different word.
If I add to an article that "X owns properties A, B, and C", and state that I got the information from the Land Deed Office, how does a reader verify that? Suppose someone else says he/she also went to the Deed Office, and didn't find what I claimed - how could the dispute be settled - by a third person going? (Note that neither of us qualifies as reliable sources per WP:RS, even if posting a scan to a web page.)
Things, of course, are quite different if the Deed Office publishes the information on the Web - now it's easy to provide a link, and easy for someone to follow that link. But treeware in filing cabinets that members of the public can obtain copies of - I don't think such information is "published" as used in this policy, and hence I think it fails WP:V. John Broughton | Talk 19:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The goal may be truth, but the policy specifically says that what is true but NOT verifiable does NOT belong in Wikipedia: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. (emphasis in original) John Broughton | Talk 04:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I think a lot of the issue here revolves around what an acceptable definition of "published" is. I would say that a good starting point for a definition would be the legal definition used in terms of copyright law (the legal definition used by defamation law -- that something is published when passed from its author to any other party -- is too inclusive for our purposes):
Perhaps something along these lines should be included here? JulesH 12:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that we need to add a little more to this policy to cover the accessibility of sources. I just came to the policy to review what it said on the matter and all I can find is what's contained in the second sentence:
The specific case I'm involved with is an article that includes a corporate history sourced (eventually) to old press releases that aren't on the web. The editor apparently works at the company and has access to their old records. I think it's pretty clear that they aren't accessible and therefore aren't verifiable, but there's no text in the policy which directly covers hard-to-access sources. - Will Beback · † · 22:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
See [7] This hangs closely towards the web page problem, except for it being in-between: now we can verify the reliability of the newspaper on this issue, but soon we won't because the evidence is being erased. Perhaps we must statisfy ourselves to keep it for the record on the talk page that this claim has been verified to be factual? Harald88 07:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I now discover that in a parallel discussion on WP:CITE (there really is too much overlap!) a practical suggestion is being made that goes some way in solving this problem for web content (protection against linkrot): [8] Harald88 10:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I added the following to the section on foreign language sources: "The burden lies with the editor who added the source to demonstrate evidence of the content of foreign language sources.".
It now reads:
English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. The burden lies with the editor who added the source to demonstrate evidence of the content of foreign language sources.
My motivation is the use of foreign language sources I see in edit wars and controversial articles. Any comments? (I'm non English btw). -- Steve Hart 09:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure the sentence proposed should be added. It's problematic in two ways, I think:
Frankly, I don't think this is a workable change. Its effect, as far as I can see, is to completely remove the possibility of using foreign language sources in English Wikipedia, which is a major change to policy that I don't think will gain consensus. Therefore I'm removing the change, pending further discussion. JulesH 12:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Until a week ago, this text could be found at WP:RS:
== Sources in languages other than English ==
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, English-language sources should be provided whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources (assuming equal quality and reliability). For example, do not use a foreign-language newspaper as a source unless there is no equivalent article in an English-language newspaper. However, foreign-language sources are acceptable in terms of verifiability, subject to the same criteria as English-language sources.
Keep in mind that translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Wikipedia editor or a professional, published translator. In principle, readers should have the opportunity to verify for themselves what the original material actually said, that it was published by a credible source, and that it was translated correctly.
Therefore, when the original material is in a language other than English:
Allegedly (and I happen to believe that) this "full version" was developed by many Wikipedians as the consensus.
Just a few days ago I was thinking that maybe we should get this back in WP:V (since the language of a source is not in itself a reliability issue, but it can cause a practical verifiability issue for a Wikipedia that targets readers that not necessarily need to know any other language than English).
What I learn from the "full version" (that is not in the current paragraph at WP:V) is that if one uses a non-English source where no original English source or external translation is available, one provides both the quote in the original language (i.e. copy a quote from the source text that most briefly states what you want to make verifiable), plus a translation of that quote in English. If another Wikipedian, that does not speak the language, wants to verify, (s)he can always ask a random Wikipedian speaking that language (there are categories and lists of Wikipedians per origin/language, e.g. Category:User de for German) and ask to check whether the translation is OK. This is consistent with a description that used to be in WP:CITE (but apparently is no longer there).
Not so long ago I initiated an article that exclusively relies on sources in a non-English language ( De Standaard, Belgisch Staatsblad, University of Ghent website,...), applying the technique as described above.
Somebody asked for problematic examples: The one I know of is the Sathya Sai Baba page. Well, it was problematic all over ( Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sathya Sai Baba). The "translation of source quotes" issue was discussed here: Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/archive7#Two problems with using non-English sources that I do not know how to solve. What I find today (e.g. Sathya_Sai_Baba#_note-saiparadox) is imho acceptable. -- Francis Schonken 11:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's the former paragraph from WP:CITE I referred to above (my bolding):
Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal calibre. However, do give references in other languages where appropriate. If quoting from a different language source, an English translation should be given with the original-language quote beside it.
It went missing 01:15, 21 November 2006 (afaics the vandalism reverters missed it thus far).
If you want to have those two in-line references from the Rehavam Zeevi article checked, I suppose you could mention them at Wikipedia:Notice board for Israel-related topics, surely there must be some people there that can help you out translating, and checking whether these sources are reliable at all.
Let that not stop you from finding sources in English asserting the same, if these are available. Maybe also for finding sources directly in English, people from the Israel-related notice board can help out.
For clarity, here are the two sources implied by the link Steve Hart gave above:
They are used in the two last paragraphs of Rehavam Zeevi#Controversy (that is, before the first subsection of that section).
Re. "editors aren't required to make a distinction between a published translation and one provided by the editor" - I read "published translations are generally preferred over editors performing their own translations directly" in the former WP:RS section, so editors are required to make a distinction. Also the reader could usually see the difference: only a text given in two languages (English + original language), without a source for the translation mentioned (mentioning the source for a translation would be a copyright-related obligation if you import a translation in Wikipedia) would indicate that the translation was made by a Wikipedian. -- Francis Schonken 18:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Anyway,
__
Just removed a very offensive picture (vandalism)with the tag "{{Spoken Wikipedia|Wikipedia_Verifiability.ogg|2006-12-04}}" which I don't know who posted... __
I was one of the original editors who contributed to the original section on non-English language sources, that was later removed. I wrote more on the subject at User:Uncle G/On sources and content#Sources in languages other than English, which you might find helpful. Uncle G 12:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This modification to policy does not fly in my view. It is now being used to justify removing translations... period. That is not the intention at all. So the wording should be cleaned up in TALK before trying to foist it into being policy which it never was previously. Wjhonson 15:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Where do we set the bar between common knowledge and facts that require verification? - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - Comment - 05:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
One way to look at it, that is at least a useful heuristic: If the person could verify it with 5 seconds with a Google search or by asking a 5-year-old child. — Centrx→ talk • 06:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
An example of common knowledge getting it wrong - Captain_Pugwash#Urban_myth... it was even in print, so verifiable. Horus Kol 11:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
There's a discussion at Talk:Taylor Allderdice High School#RFC over whether a school newspaper is a reliable source and how information sourced from it should be represented, if at all? Thoughts welcome to build a consensus. Hiding Talk 16:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Is this expression a hang over or do the three policies cited really differ in nature to the other two in the top policy content box? -- BozMo talk 20:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've checked some of the sources on one of today's "DYK" articles and the citations are highly dubious and definately NPOV. I'm tagging it as NPOV but I also want to put something on there to indcate that the sources do not say what the article says it says. Balloonman 22:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
By reading this policy I see this Any edit lacking a source may be removed.... Since this is a binding non-negotiable policy does this mean if someone continues to add the unsourced material over and over you can continue to remove it until they provide a source?-- Crossmr 16:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
i cite blog and people say it not verifiable [10] so they remove. but blog provides pictures and links to back claims up. still not verifiable, tho, according to people who cite WP:V#SELF. week later, news.com.com come along, talk about same story, and not try at all to prove anything [11]. they just say and u have to believe.
WP:V#SELF is ad hominem. if a argument boils down to rules of logic then it no matter whether blog notable or not. if a argument boils down to "im right because i have credentals" then yes, a blog posting from a non-notable blog is not sufficient. if a argument boils down to rules of logic then it no matter whether blog notable or not.
i propose WP:V#SELF be rewriting. it should not imply that blogs are bad sources no matter how cogent there argument is. that kind of knee-jerk reaction is why sexism exists - "she a girl, so her point is a piece of crap". sexism is wrong and so is your knee jerk reaction to blogs. judge people or posts for their points - not for some superficeal quality. 72.36.251.234 21:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I was recently engaged in a debate on the Administrator's Noticeboard where I was being chastised for using wp:v as a basis for PROD tagging articles that did not have any sources cited. The argument was, that verifiability is not a basis for deletion unless the topic cannot be verified, but should not be applied if the article lacks sources, but some suspect on personal knowledge that it could be verified. I propose we consider tightening the language in the Wp:v#Burden_of_evidence section to reflect consensus. One editor suggested the word topic implies that we must consider the verifiability of the topic, not the article itself. See the Discussion Alan.ca 02:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I was unable to verify any of this article or its discussion, so I recommend it for deletion. Any article pertaining to academic standards of verifiability must contain ONLY self-referential comments. Try again, and get it right this time. No independent thinking of any kind is allowed here. If someone else hasn't already said it, it cannot be said 70.106.60.44
This statment is misleading, since WP:NPOV (the thing about "significant" views), WP:NOR, WP:NOTE, WP:DELETE, WP:NFT and more all form parts of the "threshold" for inclusion. 70.101.147.224 04:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I think part of the problem here is that a lot of different things are conflated into single umbrella labels of "content" and "inclusion":
I've long idly thought of writing a page that helps people to keep the adjectives and nouns straight. I've seen many editors talk about such nonsensical things as "verifiable sources" and "notable sources".
(Of course, there are other, well-known, problems with the "verifiability, not truth" maxim, most particularly for novices who look up "verify" in a dictionary.) Uncle G 13:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a tag or something to bring such articles to somebody`s attention?-- Tresckow 21:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
A wikipedian is an unreliable source. Not only are their own translations self-published, but they are not independent of the projection of that translation upon the encyclopedia. That is, a wikipedian may use a translation to foist a POV surrupticiously upon the project. If the language is sufficiently obscure or the material is, it may go for quite a long time before being caught. We don't want to be in that situation. Therefore I propose that we only allow reliable source translations to be cited as sources. And we as wikipedians should not be arbitrating whether the translation is "accurate" whatever that means, we should be arbitrating whether it can be cited and verified. Wjhonson 16:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
In a few different articles, I've seen content cited to a particular TV show. Given the difficulty of finding a tape of a specific show (when a date or episode number is even given), do these citations really meet verifiability? (Citations to something generally available on DVD or VHS would be different.) In one case, I am almost certain a TV show citation was simply made up to satisfy demands for a citation. Guidance or comments on this? Gimmetrow 19:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess this takes the form of a remark on the way out the door (which is not to say I'm quitting entirely, but it will probably be my last posting on a policy-related page in the foreseeable future). While I am entirely in favor of Wikipedia's rising standards in regard to verifaibility when it comes to serious topics, I think these standards have become a fetish, to the point of forgetting that Wikipedia was supposed to have some Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy elements.
I always said that if Wikipedia became so tight-assed that we decided to delete List of songs containing covert references to real musicians and/or List of songs containing overt references to real musicians, it would be time for me to leave the project. Right now the former is up for deletion and I am the only vote to keep. The consensus is pretty clear.
This is not intended as blackmail: I understand that the poll is about the article, not about me, and I don't intend to entirely leave Wikipedia, but I take it as a gauge of an unwelcome change, and I do intend to cease, at least for a long time, to be a major contributor. (Details of my intentions on my user page.)
I would suggest that, judging by that poll, it is almost certainly also time either to put Ignore all rules up for deletion or at least to mark it as former policy. If this is about increasing Wikipedia's credibility, I would far more suggest keeping articles like that, but deleting ones like List of anti-folk bands and musicians or List of singer-songwriters (which are equally unverifiable, but much less interesting). - Jmabel | Talk 08:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
i donno if im in the right place to ask or not hehe , anyways , just wondering ; do famous places such are cities and landmarks which are shown in public need extreme sources ( for each new addition ) or not , because i was disscussing with some friend :) Ammar 01:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I just recently saw the proposed WP:ATTRIBUTE and I'm very excited about it. My main point: many editors, especially me, do not read the policies. All we know are the titles and wikipedia abbreviations. We argue saying "that's not WP:NPOV" and sometimes even use subsections like undue weight. But unfortunately we have our own interpretation of what these labels mean, especially when it comes to WP:VERIFY. I have been on wikipedia for a while now, and I didn't know the "not truth" part of "verifiable, not truth". This knowledge would have been very helpful in an argument that I recently had. The reason I'm excited about ATTRIBUTE is that it is a significantly better label than VERIFY. I can verify that 2+2=4 without external evidence, I can verify that a philosophical argument is correct through my reasoning, and I can verify that God exists by praying for long enough with an open heart. My point is that the label VERIFY is not effective, and the label ATTRIBUTE captures the essence of WP:V and WP:NOR in a way that gives us a much better arsenal of labels to back up the core content policies. Take a weapon like WP:NOTTRUTH, it could single-handedly end all the edit-wars on wikipedia :D -- Merzul 05:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I have recently been involved in an argument about whether an author should be allowed to cite his own self-published material.
Specifically the author is quoting "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications." from here ( WP:V) along with "If an editor has published the results of his or her research in a reliable publication, then s/he may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our NPOV policy." from WP:NOR.
In my interperetation, these two statements are not intended to apply to the same person, or at least attempting to apply both exceptions at once is a tight stretch. Isn't citing your own self-published material more or less just spam? Is it worth amending this guideline to mention that someone should not cite their own self-published work? Or is my interpretation off the mark here? - Rainwarrior 09:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
As a result of This thread at WP:ANI as well as all the associated nominations for AfD, I am proposing we clarify the "Burden of Proof" section of this policy. As currently written, it gives harbor to the idea that every single uncited source should be deleted on site. That is not a constructive path. As a look at even a few of our Wikipedia:Featured Articles will show, there are few, if any, articles here that could survive that level of scrutiny.
The new proposed wording is:
"Burden of evidence"
The burden of evidence lies primarily with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. If an article topic is impossible to furnish with reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.
At the same time, we must realize that we have much work to do before every statement on Wikipedia is sourced, and that other editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. There may be better avenues than completely removing the statement. It is not practical nor desirable to remove every unreferenced statement. As a preferred alternative, consider looking for a source and adding it in yourself. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider posting it to the talk page. Alternatively, you may tag the sentence by adding the {{ fact}} template, or tag the article by adding {{ not verified}} or {{ unsourced}}. You can also make unsourced sentences invisible in the article by adding <!-- before the section you want to hide and --> after it, until reliable sources have been provided. Leave a note on the talk page or edit summary explaining what you have done. [1]
Be careful not to err too far on including unsourced statements in the case of information about living people. These articles fall under WP:BLP which strongly encourages all statements to be sourced, especially if they are negative.
The above version has several advantages:
Adopting this version will keep us heading towards a better-referenced encyclopedia, without the havoc of willy-nilly deletion of statements and articles. Johntex\ talk 09:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
This proposal is, at root, a weakening of the policy in a time when Wikipedia needs to focus on strengthening the policy on this utterly foundational matter to the success of this Project. Think of it: Many elementary school (!) do not allow WP to be used as a reliable source, and nearly all high school and college instructors do not allow it. That says to me we need to re-visit our paradigm of the past.
As has already been stated by another user above, "a big problem with Wikipedia is that the verification policy is not applied rigorously enough."
And as has also already been stated by another user above, "it shouldn't have to take time to find sources because the editor adding his addition should have his source right in front of him and be able to easily cite and attribute from it. Else wise its original research or (at worse) unattributed plagiarism."
I could not agree more.
To cite Burden of evidence, "the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it."
The next paragraph of the policy is clearly optional and should stay that way. "Any edit lacking a source may be removed [not "should be removed"; not may not be removed until"], but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. If you want [not "However, you must"]..." add tags first.
No one is arguing for indiscriminate deletion of materials. Any argument saying that people are wanting that is a straw man. What I arguing for is policy-driven deletion of materials. Removal of material without warning or tagging is clearly permitted in the policy, but qualified by a time frame: "Be careful not to err too far on the side of not upsetting editors by leaving unsourced information in articles for too long".
The time-frame standard for removing unsourced material is "for too long". This is obviously open to a very broad interpretation. This is why there is a proposal elsewhere to define the period for new articles to 14 days.
The articles I have AfDed or removed materials from on grounds of WP:V (among other things) have been unsourced for years (the lone exception was 1.5 years), and many of them that were tagged {{references}} were afterward subject to dozens or scores of edits from the same users.
This means that {{references}} is standardly ignored, because it is not enforced. But somehow, when an AfD comes along, sources start showing up in just hours or days! Because people finally take WP:V seriously.
So this argument about "you have to give people more time" is just plain spurious. They generally do not need more time. They generally do not need a gentle nudge from a {{references}} tag. The editor adding his or her addition should have his or her source right in front of them and be able to easily cite and attribute from it. Else wise it is original research or (at worse) unattributed plagiarism. No, what editors sometimes need is an alarming announcement where their article's existence is suddenly at stake...and then the sources start showing up in just hours or days! I am not saying this approach is always the case, but there should certainly be room for it because it is needed and fully supported in policy.
Sorry to go quoting Jimmy Wales, but he is completely right on in this:
I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons."
Yep, I have been doing this to try to help Wikipedia become better and adhere to its foundational values. And some people have not liked it. And now someone is trying to weaken the policy.
I think most who have been upset have become so because they have become very accustomed and comfortable in an environment where policy is either ignored or just not enforced.
In that environment, policy has become merely what editors and some admins want it to say, not what it plainly and clearly says. Or, editors and some admins just do their own self-styled thing and follow their own subjective views, and they pull out a few policies here-and-there to meet their preferences.
No, the last thing we need is a weakening of policies. We need the current ones to be stringently enforced while they are concurrently strengthened for the new climate in which Wikipedia finds itself.
CyberAnth 00:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Folks might want to visit some of the many discussions around about the mass deletion of fair-use images by certain admins. It has caused a tremendous upheavel and stir among many Wikipedians. I agree that all fair-use images of living people should be replaced by free ones, except in the case of famous ones "with an image to protect".
But the whole matter of massive deletion of images by a certain admin was brought to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Chowbok. The vast majority of people sided against the user's deletions, until this: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Chowbok#Outside view by Jimbo Wales.
Folks should definitely have a look.
CyberAnth 01:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Two points
Any thoughts? Agne 07:27, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I too like this proposal, as it encourages discussion between editors and it encourages people to look for sources. As an example, I added a {{ citation needed}} tag to the Eurostar article yesterday [14]. Eurostar claim that their services are directly responsible for "a saving of 393,000 carbon dioxide-producing short-haul flights". A claim was added today that this figure is inaccurate because many people who travelled on Eurostar would not have made the journey by air had Eurostar not been an option.
This could be true, it could be spin made up by airlines on the defensive or it could be original research. If it is the former then it should be easily verifiable, for example by passenger surveys or hard figures (if the total number of travellers on all modes decreases during periods when Eurostar is not operating for example). If it is spin from airlines, it should be verifiable that the source of the statement is the airline industry. If the statement is verifiably true, then not including it would potentially harm the neutrality of the article, so had I immediately deleted it as not verified when I saw it rather than giving it chance to be verified then I would be doing NPOV a disservice. If however it turns out the figure is neither verifiably true, nor verifiable as having been stated by the airline industry, then it should be deleted. I do not have a source for the statement, but that does not mean there isn't one. Thryduulf 00:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Without a doubt, we should insist upon verifiability and references. However, if we deleted or blanked things with no cites, then we'd probably be down about 75% of the encyclopædia.
Rather than slapping an afd or prod tag on an article, try and find some cites. It's a lot more constructive, and it makes Wikipedia even more reliable!
Lankiveil 08:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
It would be really nice if Template:dubious was mentioned in the guideline, because I really hate seeing those massive disputed tags on top of pages where there is a dispute about some one detail, and I think it is also useful for more complicated questions such as quoting out of context. There is now a draft that probably reflects some of the points from the above discussion at WP:ATT#How to cite and request a source, except I have already inserted my support for Template:dubious. :) However, none of this should soften our stance against information that is embarrassing to wikipedia: crackpot science, crackpot history and crackpot philosophy should be aggressively eradicated. -- Merzul 01:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I found this pretty amusing: under the 'Burden of evidence' and 'Biographies of living persons' sections, the references quoting Jimmy Wales do not contain the quotes printed in the article. Is this incorrect? Currently it's reference numbers 2 and 3. Joie de Vivre 16:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
A rather iffy secondary source (The Skeptic's Dictionary [16]) makes some extreme claims via quotes from an affidavit. The Skeptic's Dictionary gives a link to the text of the affidavit that's hosted on a POV site. This page says that the affidavit was presented in a 1986 court case. I've examined the Docket Entries List for that court case, and the affidavit isn't part of the court record. Therefore, the oiginal affidavit is unverifiable. It only exists on POV sites, and has the text only -- no pdf or jpeg with the original text and signature.
Can these extreme claims from the affidavit (which the author of the Skeptic's Dictionary doesn't corroborate) be quoted in an article in Wikipedia? Does WP:V apply in this case? Or could it be argued that The Skeptic's Dictionary is a qualified secondary source, so it makes no difference that the original affidavit isn't available? Thanks! TimidGuy 21:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Well Timidguy and I are on opposite sides of the debate, however, we both have the shared intention of following wikipedia guidelines. How would one go about verifying the existence of the affidavit? The entire affidavit is listed here [
[17]], and it sure looks real enough, however, I don't think trancenet counts as a RS.
Or does it?
If it doesn't does anyone have suggestions how one could go about verifying or getting one's hands on the origonal affidavit? Sethie 23:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I have been calling for the Speedy Deletion of Benjamin M. Emanuel, which hopefully by the time this is read will be deleted for being an attack page. I maintian that the article is an attack page because it cites anti-Semitic blogs as its source to assert that its subject the father of US Rep. Rahm Emanuel is a murderous terrorist. On the talk page Talk:Benjamin M. Emanuel I cited and quoted the wiki-standards that called for this article to be deleted. I was opposed in this by User:Mel Etitis who I have been told is an Admin. He wrote on the talk page "Moreover, WP:V#SELF simply doesn't rule out the reference to a blog, it rules out the use of blogs as (the sole) source for what articles say about their subjects. if the article said that he was a murderer, and cited a blog, that would be wrong; if it says that he's accused of murder in a blog, that's very different." Apparently he feels that because the article uses qualifiers like “asserting… speculates…not to document his sources…tinged with anti-semitism, and also does not cite all of its sources…assert…speculates" that this prevents this article from being slander. I replied "The use of skeptical caveats does not allow for wiki-pages to use unsubstantiated charges that come from non-reliable unnotable sources. Saying 'While most people are skeptical that Joe Smith is part of a terrorist network, private investigator Sam Incognito insists that this is true' is no more allowable than just saying 'Joe Smith is part of a terrorist network'. Then another Admin User:NawlinWiki told me that the page should stand unless the regular AfD process decided against the question of notability. NalinWiki was the admin that removed my first call for speedy deletion and the title of her edit in the history page stated "doesn't seem to be an attack page, has sources". Is this really the case? Can any charge be repeated from a blog as long as you say it came from a blog and add caveats around the claims? I thought http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources_of_dubious_reliability banned such things, but now admins are posting on my user talk page that I'm "misusing templates", being "disruptive" and "abusive", causing an "edit war", and that I'm the one "misinterpreting the guidelines concerning blogs". Please instruct me.-- Wowaconia 04:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This is not just about the one article, this is about whether if I knew of a blog that claimed Johntex was a puppy-eater and then wrote a wiki-page called "Puppy eaters" and said "While many people familiar with Johntex's habits claim that they can not remember ever seeing him acting like a puppy eater, JohntexEatsPuppies.blog has made claims to the contrary, "You just have to look at Johntex to see that he's a puppy eater" said Xetnhoj who would not elaborate further (ref = JohntexEatsPuppies.blog). Now go back and replace the words "puppy eater" with "murdering terrorist" and you'll see why I have a problem with this use of blogs.-- Wowaconia 09:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd say that this is inherently true. A blog is *always* a good, verifiable source for what that blog says. Whether the information is notable enough to include in the article would need to be decided with reference to factors like how prominent the blog is, etc. It's messy, but I think if a well-known and respected blog started making such accusations about somebody, we should report it. If a largely unknown and unimportant blog makes the accusation, we don't care. JulesH 10:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
An overwhelming majority of Wikipedia's information is unreferenced. Therefore, enforcing the Verifiability policy would entail destroying an overwhelming majority of Wikipedia's information, and biting tons of newcomers in the process.
Something's definitely wrong.
I believe it's because most information is contributed by newcomers, who are unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policies, such as our verifiability requirements. ( Here's my reference.) In contrast, most established users, instead of adding referenced information, are fighting vandalism and getting involved in people politics.
My own experience confirms this. When I joined Wikipedia in February 2005, none of the information I contributed to articles was referenced. I only learnt how to format references in September 2005. Since then, when I contribute information to articles, I try to provide a reference (though I don't always succeed).
We should make it easier for newcomers to follow the Verifiability policy, while encouraging established users (who are familiar with the policy) to contribute referenced information.
Based on my experience, following the Verifiability policy requires three steps:
How could we make these three steps easier for newcomers? -- J.L.W.S. The Special One 14:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the following two points:
However, I stand by my statement that we should make the Verifiability policy easier for newcomers to follow. If most newcomers referenced information they add, it would save us lots of time trying to find references and eliminate original research. -- J.L.W.S. The Special One 09:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
(undent)We now have as part of an edit the count of characters added or deleted. It seems to me improbable that someone adding several hundred or more characters is involved in minor copyediting, as opposed to adding new information that should be sourced. How hard would it be for the software to be changed so that when the added-character count is above a threshold, the system checks if at least one URL has been added, and, if not, tells the user about the problem before the edit is saved? Something like: "Content added without a source is much more likely to be questioned or deleted. Please consider adding a URL or other information to your edit that shows where your information came from; see WP:CITE for how to add a complete citation." John Broughton | ♫ 15:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
A question on this policy: the word "challenged" in "material that is challenged or likely to be challenged". Does the addition of a citation needed tag automatically constitute a challenge? So that it is always wrong to remove such a tag without adding a citation unless it is mistakenly applied to something that was already covered by a source? I've also looked in vain for something about "obvious facts": this relates to an editor's comment that (the tag) "is like asking for a citation attesting to the speed of light in a Physics article". This relates to a very minor dispute at Talk:Beowulf#Tag removal but I'm really more interested in establishing what I (and presumably other editors trying to follow policy) should do in future. Thanks. Notinasnaid 14:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
That's the trouble with giving a specific example... the question, to simplify: is it ever legitimate to remove a
citation needed tag (unless the text is already covered by one)? In what situation?Does the addition of a [citation needed] tag automatically constitute a challenge? So that it is always wrong to remove such a tag without adding a citation unless it is mistakenly applied to something that was already covered by a source?
Notinasnaid
15:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the reply. Your first paragraph was actually very helpful as it clarified what is meant by "challenged". I really didn't want to try escalating the dispute just yet.
But I do have one further question. I am cautious in this area because I was once found to be in the wrong for removing a {{unsourced}} tag from an article with good references but no inline citations. Should not citations be used for everything in the article, rather than just references at the end? For instance, should not speed of light cite the speed quoted? And for that matter, the statement that it's important, represented by c and so forth? (I should add that I have no intention of making a point of that article, this is just an illustration to be sure that the policy is understood). Notinasnaid 18:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This seems to be taking a wrong turn... did you really think my hair-splitting comments more helpful than my general advise to work by Wikipedia:Consensus? ...doesn't seem to promise much good.
How references are "formatted" is pretty open. Rules involve not to change formatting of the references someone else introduced without generally acceptable reason, unless there's consensus (this has been the subject of ArbCom cases), and whatever referencing technique you use, try to make it as clear as possible. Further, see WP:CITE.
When (for instance) a person has two or three well-known published biographies, and the Wikipedia article on that person summarizes what is covered by all these established biographies, then there is no reason to add a footnotes pointing to each of these biographies after every sentence: just list the two or three biographies in the "References" section.
For the "Manuscript" section in the Beowulf article, whatever that makes clear where the theories about the age and other characteristics of the manuscript can be found in external sources. That can be a single source, that gives an overview of the different theories, or that can be a link to a separate source for each of the theories. -- Francis Schonken 19:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
At present, we have the sentence "The principles upon which these policies are based are negotiable only at the Foundation level." I suggest that this sentence is removed, because:
Enchanter 00:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe the above discussion is wrongly reasoned. Moreover, I do not believe that such an important and long-standing statement should be removed on such short discussion over a weekend. The sentence in question does not state that Verifiabiilty is a non-negotiable requirement of the foundation -- it states that NPOV, NOR and Verifiability are based upon a priniciple that is. The observation that Verifiability has a guideline status in other language Wikipedias does not change the sitaution one iota.
Accordingly, I am replacing the phrase, with a slight addition to make the point clearer. Robert A.West ( Talk) 18:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
No mentioning of "Foundation" or Jimbo himself for WP:V (note that for NPOV Jimbo did name himself as ultimate authority a few times, see references in WP:NPOV) - just the whole weight of deciding on WP:V *internally* (an internal war, not a war with himself, nor a war or even an "issue" with the Foundation). Wikipedians, and that's it. So, no I don't agree with Robert's update, nor with his chain of reasoning. Please, start to feel a bit responsible, all of you. WP:V depends on all of us, there's no "magic protection" from the Foundation for this policy. There's no way of getting too comfortable (and doze off) over this, expecting that the Foundation will straighten this out if it goes wrong. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but there's no benefit in pre-emptively devolving responsibility regarding this policy to them (at a point we aren't even sure they want to take this responsibility: if you want to know, ask them, you should know where you can find them). -- Francis Schonken 20:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)Actually, I consider WP:V to be so central to Wikipedia that if there were ever a significant majority of contributors who wanted to do away with it, we would have an internal war on our hands that would make the userbox wars look simple by comparison. ( [19])
If this has been addressed already, apologies. Could someone point me to the proper archive in that case?
There's a grey area it seems when it comes to organizations and religions. This section seems to need expansion and/or clarification to include organizations as well as authors.
A narrow reading of this policy, as written, would mean that the Catechism of the Catholic Church of the Roman Catholic Church would not be kosher, even in an article on the Church or the Catechism. Neither would the Book of Mormon for the LDS, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures for the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the The Constitutions of the Free-Masons for Freemasonry. The trouble is, is that all these are used as sources in their respective articles.
How about a Greenpeace press-release as a source for a policy position of theirs? How about the NCEES model professional engineering law [21] in the Professional Engineer article. How about this DoD transcript in an article about the Guantánamo Bay detainment camp. Again, narrowly read as currently written, this policy would seem to state "no" as well.
I'm not trying to hold up the Book of Mormon as a WP:RS for the North American Indians, but it ought to be acceptable for LDS articles when properly cited and used. Organizations need to be able to speak for themselves, and these statements considered reliable statements of their own positions. WP:NPOV and WP:NOT are still important tools to use to keep articles from becoming soapbox.
Existing text:
Proposed text:
Thanks, MARussellPESE 20:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
On a similar matter, can I have comments on this question. Organization X on their website makes a claim about themselves or their activities. There is no external evidence beyond their statement about themselves, to confirm or deny its accuracy. I'd like to see this situation more clearly addressed if possible, and clarification that we must make clear when it's cited, that it is their self-claim, and not treat it as a verified fact (because we can verify they claim it, but not verify if it's true). FT2 ( Talk | email) 15:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a question, comment, and thought experiment, maybe not in that order. The question is, can Wikipedia articles cite an article in an open-publishing format, such as Philica or ArXiv, as if it were a vetted source? Note that this is already happening. Obviously, it would be odd for wikipedia, as the most prominent open-publishing experiment, to have a policy against citing open-pub sources. But then, we don't cite other wikipedia articles, we just link to them.
Still, if scholarly open publishing takes off (as I imagine many wikipedians hope it will), we are going to have to deal with a much wider universe than "peer-reviewed" vs. "self-published." For example, we will have to deal with incomprehensible screeds that have been published, and peer reviewed, but are rated very low by the reviewers. And (of course) there will not be one single rating system, there will be dozens or hundreds. What is our game plan in this scenario? Ethan Mitchell 04:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Could I get some clarification please on this language?
Where editors use their own English translation of a non-English source as a quote in an article, there should be clear citation of the foreign-language original, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation.
Over at Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat, there is a difference of opinion about how this should be parsed. What does, "there should be a clear citation of the foreign language original" mean? It's slightly ambiguous. Does this mean "the article should clearly point to the foreign language original" -- i.e., the usual meaning of WP:CITE; or does it mean "the original source being translated or paraphrased should be included in the article", as suggested in the proposed WP:ATT#Language? I could argue both sides of this one, but would rather know what the actual practice has been here. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 18:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
English-language sources should be used whenever possible, because this is the English Wikipedia. Sources in other languages are acceptable when there are no English equivalents. Published translations are preferred to editors' translations; when editors use their own translations, the original-language material should be provided too, perhaps in a footnote, so that readers can check the translation for themselves.
Recommending ("recommending" as in: there's no guideline that makes this obligatory, but usually this should work) to use the following kind of format for translations:
<quote in original language> | <translation of the same> |
Or, for multi-paragraph quotes:
<quote in original language, 1st paragraph> | <translation of 1st paragraph> | ||
<quote in original language, 2nd paragraph> | <translation of 2nd paragraph> | ||
... | ... |
In wikicode (table syntax):
{| |- | |<quote in original language, 1st paragraph> | |<translation of 1st paragraph> |- | |<quote in original language, 2nd paragraph> | |<translation of 2nd paragraph> |- | |... | |... |}
Note that this format can be used in footnotes afterwards, if the quote is deemed relevant & reliable, and the translation accepted.
I implemented this (with comments) in User:Andries/Prem Rawat/Non-English#Schnabel 1982. -- Francis Schonken 15:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Why are blogs not reliable for information from bands and artists, such as info about line up changes and reasons for breaking up, ect? I would say these would be the most reliable sources, as blogs are pretty much used as press releases now. Diabolical 03:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Blogs published by the band about itself should be OK as a source, though the content has to meet the criteria listed: Relevant to notability (not that they recently held a birthday party for a band member), not contentious (claims that they are the "best" can't be sourced to their own blog), not self-serving (not advertising a future gig), and not about a third party (not their opinions of some other band). That rather limits usable blog content to such info as the timeline of the band, who the members are, names of songs, and their self-described style. Gimmetrow 02:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
In France, these days, there are a number of bloggers who are legal professionals (such as: attorney, law professor at a major university, etc.) and that comment, from a professional point of view, on legal issues. For instance, they will put up lengthy and well-sourced comments of bills, laws etc. Some (Éolas, Frédéric Rolin) are quoted by the national press.
To me, a blog by a well-known professional (I'm talking professors at major universities etc.) on his field of expertise is probably considerably more reliable than a press article, since the press article is very likely to have been written by a journalist with no expertise in that field.
For that reason, I think that we should reflect that in our guidelines. David.Monniaux 10:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
The issue with self-published blogs, is that there is no fact checking in the act of publishing. I would agree with David above, knowing that many newspapers that supposedly do fact checking, don't do it, or do it quite unprofessionally. So, at end of the day, we ought to assess these sources individually and within the constrains imposed in the policy: "may be acceptable" and "exercise caution." ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
This issue has come up in WT:ATT, but since there is no certainty that will ever be policy, I'll raise the issue here. If a self-published or unreliable source is discussed in reliable secondary sources, and that discussion is properly used in an article, which should govern: exclusion as a doubtful source, or inclusion as a primary source with interpretation provided by the secondary sources?
Example #1: A self-published webcomic with feminist themes becomes notable and is written about in secondary sources. Under the policy as strictly interpreted, one could not reference the comic in an article about the comic, but one could in an article about the artist. Even if we don't distinguish an article about the comic from one about the author, one certainly could not mention it in an article on "Feminist themes in comics," even if a majority of the secondary sources discussed the webcomic.
Example #2: The National Enquirer publishes a theory that the gold has been removed from Fort Knox and the site is being used for secret research into alien technologies. The rumor becomes popular and notable, and is commented upon in secondary sources. There isn't enough material for a full article, so a section is created in the article on the gold depository. Although the secondary sources refuting the rumor can be cited, and their quotations of the original article can be re-quoted, the exact same quotations could not be cited back to the original article as a primary source. In fact, by strict interpretation, even an article on "Conspiracy theories about Fort Knox" could not use the source, because the article is not about the author or publisher.
These examples just seem silly. Now, in real Wikipedia articles, reasonable editors don't have problems, but this can lead to reasoning that is almost Talmudic in its complexity:
I am not suggesting opening the floodgates – I have argued long and hard against doing that – but I can't think why we should prohibit using some primary sources and not others, subject always to the need for secondary sources and for care about editions and that on-line sources have not been altered. And, I can't think why we should prefer mental gymnastics to a straightforward statement. Robert A.West ( Talk) 19:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) If a Wikipedia article discusses whether unreliable newspaper U committed libel or not, the rule cited by Badlydrawnjeff would allow articles published in U to be cited and quoted, unless there are claims about third parties. But the person allegedly being libeled is a third party, so no passage that includes the name of the person allegedly being libeled could be quoted from U, at least as the rule is currently written. -- Gerry Ashton 23:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
"Quite frankly, I don't think any reasonable editor would object to such a citation, and adding such a citation can easily be defended on the grounds of
WP:IAR" I have had to go to substantial lengths, in the past, to defend the use of a usenet post to indicate that a concept was in use on usenet on a particular date. Whether or not the editors who insisted on removing it were acting reasonably or not isn't really relevant -- they clearly believed that policy prohibited it. Many (perhaps even most) wikipedia editors are not aware of IAR -- it isn't the most well publicised of policies -- so relying on that is perhaps not ideal. I firmly believe that this kind of use is both acceptable and within policy, although the current wording of policy does make it difficult to see that it is.
JulesH
09:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
from the originals, alongside, say, David McCullough's commentary on the incident and its relation to the Alien and Sedition Acts. What, besides the passage of time, is the difference? Robert A.West ( Talk) 20:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
When I read an article in Wikipedia, I want to read the truth. What value is there for it to be verified if it is not the truth? Why on earth would someone want to read that which is false but verified as opposed to the truth? 01001 00:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that truth is a laudable goal for any publication - but without having some kind of reference to support a statement, how can you be certain of its truth... There are some truths that can be inferred quite simply (such as 2+2=4), but there are more complex truths that cannot be simply stated - for example, the Religion in Scouting has been such an article - I have had personal experience on some of the points discussed in the article, so I knew them to be true - but without an independent verification of those points, they were not valid... Ultimately, I think the article is now that much stronger and balanced because the verifiability policy (and a few editors) have caused myself (and other editors) to be careful to research and reference the article. So the question is - what is truth without the ability to verify it as truth? Horus Kol 11:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I wrote an essay pertaining to verifiability and original sources, which can be found at WP:NRSNVNA. Is the "see also" section an appropriate place to link to this essay? If not, where is? Thanks! - Chardish 06:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Gerry, some editors believe that lists of that type should not be admitted to Wikipedia (cats are better) and it is of course policy that lists of foos should be completely sourced. Grace Note 05:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
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I am unsure of the specific impalementation of this policy in the case of television episodes. In an article about a specific television episode, is information about that episode not implicitly verifiable? If not, how is the episode supposed to be sourced?
The nature of this question is that Hell Comes to Quahog has been the location of a voracious edit war this past hour or so, dealing with the fact that one editor believes that content in the Notes and Cultural References sections of the article ( pre edit-war version) is in violation of WP:V (among other policies). I am not a participant in the edit war, though I am trying to bring it to a resolution.
Thanks in advance for any help! – Dvandersluis 17:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Family Guy is one television shows page that should include all these cultural references and notes as some of the material used on the show is so abstract not everyone understands it ,so the episode page can be a point of reference and explanation. It is not a retelling of the joke, but more information the the reference in the joke. Since Family Guy is weak on plot, these cultural references are necessary. So basically the note and cultural references should remain
216.177.121.212
18:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no problem using works of fiction as a source, provided that the edits conform to the established
policies and guidelines. Some of the relevant sections are quoted below.
WP:WAF - a guideline, tells us "Wikipedia policy on verifiabilityrequires that articles "rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." However, articles written from an in-universe perspective are overly reliant on the fiction itself as a primary source. Lacking as they are in any critical analysis of the subject, these articles may invite original research. In other words, lacking critical analysis from secondary sources, Wikipedia editors and fans of the subject often feel compelled to provide such analysis themselves."
WP:WAF-- "This often involves using the fiction to give plot summaries, character descriptions or biographies, or direct quotations. This is not inherently bad, provided that the fictional passages are short, are given the proper context, and do not constitute the main portion of the article. If such passages stray into the realm of interpretation, secondary sources must be provided to avoid original research. Note that when using the fictional work itself to write these descriptions the work of fiction must be cited as a source."
WP:OR a policy, states-- "Any facts, opinions, interpretations, definitions, and arguments published by Wikipedia must already have been published by a reliable publication in relation to the topic of the article."
WP:OR-- "An article or section of an article that relies on primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on entirely primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions."
So as long as you are only describing something that happens in the episode and you follow the directions at WP:CITE for citing the source in the references section, then you may use the episode itself as a source. If however, you want to say that 1 work is an allusion/ homage/ parody of or to another work, then you must find a reliable 3rd party source that has already published that connection and cite that as a source. If you watch an episode and think that scene A looks like scene B in another show, you might be correct but to add that to the encyclopedia (absent a reliable 3rd party source that has already published that connection) is considered original research and is subject to removal. Please stop by the trivia cleanup project and check out what we are doing. Also, please check out Make Love, Not Warcraft which has been cleaned of cruft and is now being reviewed as a Good Article candidate. Cheers. L0b0t 21:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
While family guy does need to be cleaned up quite a bit, I also believe that some sort of cultural reference section is needed so people have an easy and quick place to go to check upon a joke they that calls upon something they know nothing or little about. So while the note category should probably be fixed, the cultural references are a well used tool for deciphering some of the randomness of the show Grande13 22:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there is a verifiability issue here for things that happen in an episode. Some fairly obvious references seem to fall into a grey area for verifiability. I think the real issue here is that we need to limit the amount of these notes. --
Ned Scott
05:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a problem with the all-purposefulness of this "official policy"
I have a repeating problem with someone who feels he has the unquestioned right to undo any edits in a tech article where he sees no citations. And he comments his undos with the note "see WP:Verifiability".
An example: As someone who has years of experience on a specific topic, I have learned, partly from my own deductions, that certain things can be done. So I described them by adding them to an existing article. He, who has never heard (or thought) of this, undid my edit, asking me to provide a citation.
However, I can't provide a citation because it rather "new research", done by me or other with special knowledge, experience or understand. In this case, I then had to add explanations to the Talk page so others could follow my deductions to make this person realize that his undoing my edit was inappropriate.
Unfortunately, that same person has now again undone another's additions, although I fully agreed with those added statements, meaning that they were quite correct. Again, the said person removed them with the reasoning that there's no cititation to be found. Yet, more experienced people would understand that the newly added statements were correct.
On both cases it appears that the undoer is not able to comprehend the issue well, but still feels he must control it. Sure, there's also the need to educate this person that he should first ask, and only undo someone's edit after it has been discussed. But that's not my point here.
My point is: It should be made clear that this policy does not ALWAYS apply. In the cases I described, there is simply no citation to be found, yet they were correct. I do not like others to think they can question technical statements by a simple (and rather blind) reference to this policy.
Can something be done about this, please?
-- Tempel 14:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, since I've now brought up the issue with the undo edit on the affected page, I might as well refer to it now from here. It's File_Allocation_Table. The two cases I meant were deductions that could be made from working with the FAT system. To someone who works with this enough, he'll simply agree that the things are what they are. In detail, these were:
I just realized that the person who undid my first edit referred also to Wikipedia:No_original_research. This he did when I argued that from reading the specification on the FAT file system, one could deduce the limitations I had described. Somehow, I had the impression he's not able to know the difference between a specification and a interpretation. He did quote the interpretation the the truth and the deduction from the spec incorrect. So, what would you suggest here? There was not quote to find to support what I had written, yet it could be deduced from a spec or by "reading" things readily available, even if they're not present as an article on the web or in another known form of publication. And the person I fought this over with simply said "you did original research and that does not belong in WP". Is he right? -- Tempel 14:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Can we add either "question" or "challenge" to the third point of the nutshell so it reads: "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to question and/or remove it." ? Harryboyles 09:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Regulars to this page may be interested in this proposal. Please comment on the talk page there. jguk 21:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to amend the first sentence from
to
as I believe it's more important to emphasise that these policies work hand-in-hand rather than the number of them. jguk 13:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
These three policies are our three content policies, so I do not see the need to change the wording. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOT is one of our fundamental policies, but it is not really a content policy. This formulation has had the support of the community for quite a while, and I do not see what is prompting the need for that change. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm suggesting that the important thing to note is that V, NOR and NPOV complement each other. They work hand-in-hand. Hence the suggested revised wording. jguk 12:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I support the change. The number isn't important and it's accuracy is debatable (it doesn't matter if it is accurate or not, this debate proves it's debatable), so it might as well be removed. -- Tango 23:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The three are so tied together they should be made into a single policy. Efforts to join at least two of them is ingoing. The point is that they are tightly interconnected; not that they are "main". As they are not more important than the policies which say to stay legal by not invading the privacy of nonpublic persons (BLP), not breaking IP laws (mainly copyright), and not defaming (people and corporations). WAS 4.250 00:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi.
Does "self-published" sources include publishing your research in an academic journal? Also, why the prohibition, anyway? Is it because there is no way to check the accuracy of such things, at least not in a Wikipedia-compatible way (because Wikipedia is NOT a peer reviewer for reference sources, Wikipedia is just an ENCYCLOPEDIA)? 70.101.147.74 03:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Robert West wrote that is OK to use a primary source in WP, provided " its interpretation does not require special expertise." This is not quite true. It's perfectly OK if the reader will need special expertise to interpret a passage that is a direct quote or close paraphrase of a primary source; it is only if the editor is using specialist expertise to interpret the source that there is a problem. Also note that when editors discuss a passage on a talk page, it is not unusual for the editors to have specialist knowledge, and the conversation may very well be unintelligible to a reader chosen at random. -- Gerry Ashton 23:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
In the subsection WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper) JBKramer added the following sentence:
However, for articles that are about content that was published first and even exclusively on blogs, linking to the specified blogs is not only acceptable, but practically a requirement.
I feel this is overly broad. For the most part, content that has been exclusively published in blogs should not have a Wikipedia article about it. -- Gerry Ashton 02:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
ElectricEye, not everything that is unreferenced is likely to be challenged. That 2 plus 2 is 4 is not likely to be challenged. The phrase implies that a degree of common sense is needed. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at the Somali clans where they start listing Prominent figures. You'd think common sense says to remove the unverified information to the talk page for discussion, verification and the results written into the article. Not the other way around. -- Electric Eye ( talk) 05:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been following this closely, but I see that the following change has been made: "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to challenge or remove it." Can someone give a short, clear summary of why this change was made? It seems quite odd to me. -
Jmabel |
Talk
07:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
There's one section of this page that has long been a bugbear of mine - largely because it is so confusing. Those used to teaching people or taking people through new topics will know that once you have confused someone on a key concept, it takes a lot to get them unconfused. Much better to lay down what you mean in a clear, unambiguous logical format first.
The passage I don't like is:
The confusing bit is the "not truth". It seems weird to state upfront that WP does not care about truth. Of course, that's not what it means, but then there's nothing other than the "not truth" bit, in bold font, that a new reader has to work on to understand what we mean. It's no surprise that even those who defend keeping a reference to the point in the policy freely admit that many WPians are confused on the point, and no mistake that it is listed as the most frequently asked question on WP:ATT/FAQ.
We really should address this confusion, and after much thought, I think I have a formula that has a fair chance of succeeding. The revised text (absent bolding) would be:
I reckon that this covers the key point of the "not truth" bit, and yet, by explaining it rather than stating it as a stark statement, means that there would be little confusion. jguk 14:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The rationale has to come as soon as the concept of "not truth" is introduced. Otherwise, you start by introducing confusion. A slight reordering of what you suggest (and either removing the bold font or putting the first two clauses in bold too) could achieve this (although I think my initial suggestion is better still):
jguk 17:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
My original wording addresses this point:
jguk 18:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I think this issue needs to be discussed further because it has been raised in the debate taking place at Wikipedia:Speedy deletion criterion for unsourced articles.
Using internal links to another article which contain the sources for a statment is very common in Wikipedia articles. An example given in the earlier discussion was let us suppose that there is an article called Ten highest mountains in Africa and that, that list had been derived from 100 sources, with a detailed analysis of why those particular peaks have been chosen for the Wikipedia list. The current wording of this plolicy implies that all 100 sources need to be included in every article which mentions the list of 10 highest mountains in Africa. Placing every reference in every article for every Wikipedia link used as a source becomes a real maintenance issue: suppose that the sources for the list changes, then it would be necessary to edit all the subsidiary articles which use the list as well as the list itself. In day to day editing of Wikipedia articles, people are willing to accept statements like "mountain xyz is the fourth highest mountain in Africa", because they are willing to follow the link to the parent article for the sources. Only if the link article (parent article) does not have adequate sources are they likely to demand under this policy that the statement in the child article contain a third party source for verification. I think that this policy needs changing to reflect this because many/most articles rely to a lesser or greater extent on this premise.
There is of course a limit to how many nested links one should have to follow to find third party sources. I think that only a single link should be allowed, otherwise there is a danger of recursion where a circular link is created with no third party source cited for a disputed fact.
Some article types which rely very heavily on the use of links providing sources are:
If this policy is taken at face value then all disimbaguation pages need third party sources, unless one is willing to interpret the phrases: 2 Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor.. 3 The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to challenge and/or remove it. to mean, as they do in practice, that an internal link can be used to provide reliable sources.
To stop pedants using WP:V as a club (and wasting a lot of time on reverts and talk page discussions), I think that it is necessary to include in this policy a statement, that reflects how Wikipedia links are already used, that third party sources can be provided by in-line links to other Wikipedia articles that already contain adequate third party sources.
-- Philip Baird Shearer 12:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't agree with the addition of "Reliable sources can be provided by an in-line link to another Wikipedia article that already contain adequate third-party sources" into the policy box.
Although true, I don't think it is as essential as the other three points already in the box. Plus, some will inevitably misunderstand it to mean that it is uniformly desirable to have internal links as sources.
I wouldn't be so concerned, however, if the text were removed from the policy box and placed later down in the discussion of the policy. jguk 13:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed a numbered item that encouraged providing a reliable source by linking to another Wikipedia article that has the source. With the specific exceptions of dab pages and articles written in
WP:Summary style, this is a generally bad practice, because there is no guarantee that the source will remain in the target article. It also encourages laziness, because the target article may not use the source accurately.
Robert A.West (
Talk)
17:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
There's discussion of this up above at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Internal_links_to_third_party_sources. Can we somehow merge the discussions? jguk 17:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I am aware of the daisy-chain problem if you look at the previous discussions you will see an example I gave ( Bundesland), which is why I phrased the addition the way I did: "Reliable sources can be provided by an in-line link to another Wikipedia article that already contain adequate third-party sources." as this removes the daisy-chain problem. It is also phrased in such a way that it is not the tertiary information in the Wikipedia in-line link article that is being cited, but the adequate third-party sources in the inline-link article. -- Philip Baird Shearer 12:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
There are five cases where one article might rely on another for verifiability. Some are valid, and others are bad practice. Two of the valid cases I would class as "navigational aids" rather than "articles." If the intention of the addition I reverted was to provide for the valid cases, then I think it was unfortunately phrased. In that event, it could be mentioned as a set of exception farther on down.
Cases 1-4 are valid exceptions, although 3 and 4 are not complete exceptions. Case 5 is what I meant by "very bad practice." I have been guilty of that particular sin myself, but that does not mean that doing so improves Wikipedia. Robert A.West ( Talk) 05:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Robert, clearly you have not been involved in the debate about Wikipedia:Speedy deletion criterion for unsourced articles, because it is a problem, believe me if it is not spelt out in this policy page then if that idea is implemented expect all the type of pages you have mentioned above to be flagged for deletion as they do not meet the WP:V policy. It is no good arguing as you have above that custom and guidelines (eg the above example Wikipedia:Summary style#Citations and external links | already covered) cover it, because custom and guidelines are not policy. The policy needs adjustment to reflect the real Wikipedia world and as it stands at the moment almost all of what you say above fail the policy test of "1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it."
Many articles are both articles in their own right, but also contain lists or are in part summary pages. Above you write "IMO, pass without a citation, because the fact is trivially checked using obvious works of general reference that nearly everyone has. Its the sort of fact that is not "likely to be challenged." Using a wikilink to reinforce the point is harmless." The trouble with this is who defines what is trivially checked out. For example the an article might state "A mercenary is an unlawful combatant." or " Napoleon Bonaparte lost the Battle of Waterloo." or "There is no positive international law banning the use of depleted uranium sabot rounds" or " Charles I was executed on January 30 1649". What is an obvious fact to someone and easy to look up in a reference that they have, is to another an obscure fact which is why they are reading the article on Wikipedia and the link provides an easy way to check the fact in a reference that they posses. This policy should reflect the everyday fact that this is how pages in wikipedia are structured using in-line links to other more detailed accounts. This article " meta:wiki is not paper" has an interesting section ( Style and functionality) which say:
For example, CMS (the Chicago Manual of Style) tells the writer or editor to briefly gloss, or explain, the first use of an abbreviation (as just demonstrated with "CMS"). Jargon can be treated similarly. This treatment makes a lot of sense on paper: If an article mentions an arcane subject or if it uses an abbreviation or jargon, the reader may need to know more about it, and so giving a full name or a cross-reference will help find it. But Wikipedia has something even better than a parenthetical gloss of just a few words: an electronic link to a thorough treatment of the subject. paper-based publishing style:
It is unclear if IBM's code page 437 (a character code set) was based on the VT-220 terminal (a computer input/output device) of DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation), or if the reverse was the case.
Wikipedia publishing style:
It is unclear if IBM's code page 437 was based on the VT220 terminal of DEC, or if the reverse was the case.
I think that this argument also applies to references. -- Philip Baird Shearer 19:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing out that you are aware of the problem, in which case I fail to see why you write "The proposed paragraph seems to be solving a problem we have not seen, at the risk of exacerbating a problem we have". The proposals at (Speedy deletion criterion for unsourced articles) seemed to have been added after I raised this issue on the talk page ( 88155683). But I notice that in the latest proposal [ #4 (23:37, 21 November 2006 208.20.251.27)] that the wording is now "The process should not be applied to disambiguation pages or those written in summary style" The trouble with this wording is that an article may be written in summary style, but the in-line references may be to wikipedia links which do not contain any third party sources! (see for example this version of List of War Crimes (Revision as of 13:44, 21 March 2006) this is clearly unnaccptable and it does not cover summary style articles which link in-line to summary style artiles (the diasy-chain problem). The proposed wording I have suggested for this policy covers text in all article, (removing the potential problem of a policy relying on guidlines for policy statments eg "what is a summary page?") and does away with the problem of an in-line Wikipedia link pages not containin adequate third party sources. -- Philip Baird Shearer 21:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The "SDcdfua" is only tangential to this policy page. However it highlights a problem with this policy. The experienced editors who edit this page tend to be practical experienced editors who are more than capable of making sensible judgements about when a piece of text needs a third party citation. But as experienced editors they are also immersed in the current culture of editing Wikipedia pages, and, often without realising it, they interpret Wikipedia policies and guidelines with a lens which includes custom. However when it becomes clear that the wording of a policy is far removed from what is done on a day to day basis when editing pages, then I think the policy should be altered to reflect best practice. Most experienced editors accept a sentence or paragraph which uses in-line links to well sourced Wikipedia article, as reliably sourced. They are only likely to object if the sentence draws a "novel narrative or historical interpretation." or "Surprising or apparently important claims that are not widely known" that are not directly supported by the in-line links. In such a case they will demand a citation from reliable sources even if the in-line links are well sourced e.g. "The moon is a satellite of the earth and it is made of cheddar cheese". My suggested changes will not protect such sentences. But they will save the need to put in citations for such statements as "At the end of the Potsdam Conference, the Allies issued an ultimatum to Japan". Adding a sentence reflecting the wide spread acceptance of such in-line Wikipedia references into this policy will stop the need for guidlines like "SDcdfua" to add a complicated clause to put into words what is the customary interpretation by experienced editors of WP:V. This change, to bring into line the Verifiability policy with its customary interpretation, will help stop trolls and well intentioned inexperienced editors wasting everyone's time. -- Philip Baird Shearer 07:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The wording I am proposing does not suggest that the content of the Wikipedia in-line article that is being used as a source, but the third party sources in that article. There is nothing exceptional about this, it is what is done in many (most?) articles to a greater or lesser extent. -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | → | Archive 20 |
I have removed the word "third-party" from the sentence: "If an article topic has no reliable, third-party source Wikipedia should not have an article on it." I'm not sure how it got to be added, but I think it must have been in error. WP:V is not a notability criterion - notability is dealt with on other page. The verifiability requirement is, and should be, for a reliable source. If a source is not 3P there may (or may not) be some question marks over its reliability. Indeed, we are likely to be more rigorous in assessing its reliability. But if the source is reliable, it is good enough to be used. jguk 17:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Re. the latest removal by Jguk. Would it not be better to say reliable secondary sources, as an article with only primary sources is a very bad idea and just inviting original research? L0b0t 17:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that articles that rely only on self-published sources by people or organizations with a vested interest in the subject of the article are bad, and sources that are not technicallly self-published but are under the control of people or organizations with a vested interest are just as bad. I am concerned, however, that some readers of the policy might see the words third-party and think that sources written by a person with a vested interest, but published by an independent reputable publisher, are ruled out. It suffices that the publisher be a third-party; the author need not be. -- Gerry Ashton 20:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
"Third-party" only serves to confuse not clarify the issue. We have lived with primary and secondary for a long time. Adding another layer does not help the situation. Wjhonson 19:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The original formulation of "Verifiability, not truth" makes a very significant point. I do not see any substantial arguments that support its removal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The policy box (your second point) has been in this policy for over half a year. It makes it clear that the contents contains the policy, with the remainder of the text being discussion. It is aesthetically nice, and to the point.
Regarding your first point, the most important point of this policy is that claims should be referenced to a reliable source. Comments that this is not the same as reporting "the truth" may be important, but are a follow-on to the main point.
However, I would not oppose re-adding that point to the lead section if (1) it appeared as the second rather than first paragraph (see WP:LEAD); (2) the point was expressed in a clear way that is unlikely to confuse (and see above for suggested ways of explaining it briefly). jguk 10:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Yet again, there's an argument between "you changed the policy" and "I just reverted it to how it has been". If both sides are going to insist that you're not changing, but just reverting to "the status quo", could you provide diffs showing which "status quo" version you are reverting to? -- Milo H Minderbinder 17:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Over the last several months I have been observing business at WP:V and sometimes participating. One pattern I have seen several times now is that someone will edit WP:V in good faith, only to be immediately reverted by an admin claiming "no consensus, no consensus" (after only very brief discussion or no discussion), frequently followed by charges that the good faith editor is being disruptive. To be fair, these reverts are often justified, but could perhaps be handled more diplomatically. I don't believe that the majority of people (aside from vandals) trying to change WP:V are out to disrupt Wikipedia. Some are motivated by what they see as unfair treatment they received under the guise of WP:V, and they want to see changes so that no one has to suffer the same treatment that they suffered. In some cases, those changes may not be justified, but I believe that in all cases, it is important to try and understand the reasons why changes are being proposed.
I also see quite a number of changes to WP:V made by admins, generally made without any discussion to achieve consensus. I don't mean to accuse anyone of bad-faith, but rather, I hope my comments will be taken as an indication that everyone needs to work more at understanding the concerns of other editors, without prior assumptions, and admins need to work to avoid the appearance of a double standard. Wikipedia would be served better if more effort was made by all parties to make WP:V be a true record of consensus. dryguy 23:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm currently in discussion about a conclusion in an article which was drawn from some information available within confidential membership records of an organisation. Since these are not actually publicly available to everyone, they cannot readily be cited. However, it is possible to obtain the information for verification by approaching the said organisation and offering just cause to gain access to the records (at least, information from those records which do not reveal personal details like name or address). Would this be sufficient to meet the requirements of verifiability? Horus Kol 14:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
... at a Land Deed office, you can obtain a copy of a Deed without any cause, any member of the public can do so, with no justification. That is public information. That is, it has been "published" to "the public" by the Land Deed Office. With all due respect, I don't believe that "public" equals "published" - otherwise, the policy would use a different word.
If I add to an article that "X owns properties A, B, and C", and state that I got the information from the Land Deed Office, how does a reader verify that? Suppose someone else says he/she also went to the Deed Office, and didn't find what I claimed - how could the dispute be settled - by a third person going? (Note that neither of us qualifies as reliable sources per WP:RS, even if posting a scan to a web page.)
Things, of course, are quite different if the Deed Office publishes the information on the Web - now it's easy to provide a link, and easy for someone to follow that link. But treeware in filing cabinets that members of the public can obtain copies of - I don't think such information is "published" as used in this policy, and hence I think it fails WP:V. John Broughton | Talk 19:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The goal may be truth, but the policy specifically says that what is true but NOT verifiable does NOT belong in Wikipedia: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. (emphasis in original) John Broughton | Talk 04:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I think a lot of the issue here revolves around what an acceptable definition of "published" is. I would say that a good starting point for a definition would be the legal definition used in terms of copyright law (the legal definition used by defamation law -- that something is published when passed from its author to any other party -- is too inclusive for our purposes):
Perhaps something along these lines should be included here? JulesH 12:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that we need to add a little more to this policy to cover the accessibility of sources. I just came to the policy to review what it said on the matter and all I can find is what's contained in the second sentence:
The specific case I'm involved with is an article that includes a corporate history sourced (eventually) to old press releases that aren't on the web. The editor apparently works at the company and has access to their old records. I think it's pretty clear that they aren't accessible and therefore aren't verifiable, but there's no text in the policy which directly covers hard-to-access sources. - Will Beback · † · 22:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
See [7] This hangs closely towards the web page problem, except for it being in-between: now we can verify the reliability of the newspaper on this issue, but soon we won't because the evidence is being erased. Perhaps we must statisfy ourselves to keep it for the record on the talk page that this claim has been verified to be factual? Harald88 07:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I now discover that in a parallel discussion on WP:CITE (there really is too much overlap!) a practical suggestion is being made that goes some way in solving this problem for web content (protection against linkrot): [8] Harald88 10:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I added the following to the section on foreign language sources: "The burden lies with the editor who added the source to demonstrate evidence of the content of foreign language sources.".
It now reads:
English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. The burden lies with the editor who added the source to demonstrate evidence of the content of foreign language sources.
My motivation is the use of foreign language sources I see in edit wars and controversial articles. Any comments? (I'm non English btw). -- Steve Hart 09:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure the sentence proposed should be added. It's problematic in two ways, I think:
Frankly, I don't think this is a workable change. Its effect, as far as I can see, is to completely remove the possibility of using foreign language sources in English Wikipedia, which is a major change to policy that I don't think will gain consensus. Therefore I'm removing the change, pending further discussion. JulesH 12:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Until a week ago, this text could be found at WP:RS:
== Sources in languages other than English ==
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, English-language sources should be provided whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources (assuming equal quality and reliability). For example, do not use a foreign-language newspaper as a source unless there is no equivalent article in an English-language newspaper. However, foreign-language sources are acceptable in terms of verifiability, subject to the same criteria as English-language sources.
Keep in mind that translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Wikipedia editor or a professional, published translator. In principle, readers should have the opportunity to verify for themselves what the original material actually said, that it was published by a credible source, and that it was translated correctly.
Therefore, when the original material is in a language other than English:
Allegedly (and I happen to believe that) this "full version" was developed by many Wikipedians as the consensus.
Just a few days ago I was thinking that maybe we should get this back in WP:V (since the language of a source is not in itself a reliability issue, but it can cause a practical verifiability issue for a Wikipedia that targets readers that not necessarily need to know any other language than English).
What I learn from the "full version" (that is not in the current paragraph at WP:V) is that if one uses a non-English source where no original English source or external translation is available, one provides both the quote in the original language (i.e. copy a quote from the source text that most briefly states what you want to make verifiable), plus a translation of that quote in English. If another Wikipedian, that does not speak the language, wants to verify, (s)he can always ask a random Wikipedian speaking that language (there are categories and lists of Wikipedians per origin/language, e.g. Category:User de for German) and ask to check whether the translation is OK. This is consistent with a description that used to be in WP:CITE (but apparently is no longer there).
Not so long ago I initiated an article that exclusively relies on sources in a non-English language ( De Standaard, Belgisch Staatsblad, University of Ghent website,...), applying the technique as described above.
Somebody asked for problematic examples: The one I know of is the Sathya Sai Baba page. Well, it was problematic all over ( Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sathya Sai Baba). The "translation of source quotes" issue was discussed here: Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/archive7#Two problems with using non-English sources that I do not know how to solve. What I find today (e.g. Sathya_Sai_Baba#_note-saiparadox) is imho acceptable. -- Francis Schonken 11:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's the former paragraph from WP:CITE I referred to above (my bolding):
Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal calibre. However, do give references in other languages where appropriate. If quoting from a different language source, an English translation should be given with the original-language quote beside it.
It went missing 01:15, 21 November 2006 (afaics the vandalism reverters missed it thus far).
If you want to have those two in-line references from the Rehavam Zeevi article checked, I suppose you could mention them at Wikipedia:Notice board for Israel-related topics, surely there must be some people there that can help you out translating, and checking whether these sources are reliable at all.
Let that not stop you from finding sources in English asserting the same, if these are available. Maybe also for finding sources directly in English, people from the Israel-related notice board can help out.
For clarity, here are the two sources implied by the link Steve Hart gave above:
They are used in the two last paragraphs of Rehavam Zeevi#Controversy (that is, before the first subsection of that section).
Re. "editors aren't required to make a distinction between a published translation and one provided by the editor" - I read "published translations are generally preferred over editors performing their own translations directly" in the former WP:RS section, so editors are required to make a distinction. Also the reader could usually see the difference: only a text given in two languages (English + original language), without a source for the translation mentioned (mentioning the source for a translation would be a copyright-related obligation if you import a translation in Wikipedia) would indicate that the translation was made by a Wikipedian. -- Francis Schonken 18:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Anyway,
__
Just removed a very offensive picture (vandalism)with the tag "{{Spoken Wikipedia|Wikipedia_Verifiability.ogg|2006-12-04}}" which I don't know who posted... __
I was one of the original editors who contributed to the original section on non-English language sources, that was later removed. I wrote more on the subject at User:Uncle G/On sources and content#Sources in languages other than English, which you might find helpful. Uncle G 12:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This modification to policy does not fly in my view. It is now being used to justify removing translations... period. That is not the intention at all. So the wording should be cleaned up in TALK before trying to foist it into being policy which it never was previously. Wjhonson 15:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Where do we set the bar between common knowledge and facts that require verification? - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - Comment - 05:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
One way to look at it, that is at least a useful heuristic: If the person could verify it with 5 seconds with a Google search or by asking a 5-year-old child. — Centrx→ talk • 06:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
An example of common knowledge getting it wrong - Captain_Pugwash#Urban_myth... it was even in print, so verifiable. Horus Kol 11:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
There's a discussion at Talk:Taylor Allderdice High School#RFC over whether a school newspaper is a reliable source and how information sourced from it should be represented, if at all? Thoughts welcome to build a consensus. Hiding Talk 16:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Is this expression a hang over or do the three policies cited really differ in nature to the other two in the top policy content box? -- BozMo talk 20:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've checked some of the sources on one of today's "DYK" articles and the citations are highly dubious and definately NPOV. I'm tagging it as NPOV but I also want to put something on there to indcate that the sources do not say what the article says it says. Balloonman 22:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
By reading this policy I see this Any edit lacking a source may be removed.... Since this is a binding non-negotiable policy does this mean if someone continues to add the unsourced material over and over you can continue to remove it until they provide a source?-- Crossmr 16:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
i cite blog and people say it not verifiable [10] so they remove. but blog provides pictures and links to back claims up. still not verifiable, tho, according to people who cite WP:V#SELF. week later, news.com.com come along, talk about same story, and not try at all to prove anything [11]. they just say and u have to believe.
WP:V#SELF is ad hominem. if a argument boils down to rules of logic then it no matter whether blog notable or not. if a argument boils down to "im right because i have credentals" then yes, a blog posting from a non-notable blog is not sufficient. if a argument boils down to rules of logic then it no matter whether blog notable or not.
i propose WP:V#SELF be rewriting. it should not imply that blogs are bad sources no matter how cogent there argument is. that kind of knee-jerk reaction is why sexism exists - "she a girl, so her point is a piece of crap". sexism is wrong and so is your knee jerk reaction to blogs. judge people or posts for their points - not for some superficeal quality. 72.36.251.234 21:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I was recently engaged in a debate on the Administrator's Noticeboard where I was being chastised for using wp:v as a basis for PROD tagging articles that did not have any sources cited. The argument was, that verifiability is not a basis for deletion unless the topic cannot be verified, but should not be applied if the article lacks sources, but some suspect on personal knowledge that it could be verified. I propose we consider tightening the language in the Wp:v#Burden_of_evidence section to reflect consensus. One editor suggested the word topic implies that we must consider the verifiability of the topic, not the article itself. See the Discussion Alan.ca 02:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I was unable to verify any of this article or its discussion, so I recommend it for deletion. Any article pertaining to academic standards of verifiability must contain ONLY self-referential comments. Try again, and get it right this time. No independent thinking of any kind is allowed here. If someone else hasn't already said it, it cannot be said 70.106.60.44
This statment is misleading, since WP:NPOV (the thing about "significant" views), WP:NOR, WP:NOTE, WP:DELETE, WP:NFT and more all form parts of the "threshold" for inclusion. 70.101.147.224 04:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I think part of the problem here is that a lot of different things are conflated into single umbrella labels of "content" and "inclusion":
I've long idly thought of writing a page that helps people to keep the adjectives and nouns straight. I've seen many editors talk about such nonsensical things as "verifiable sources" and "notable sources".
(Of course, there are other, well-known, problems with the "verifiability, not truth" maxim, most particularly for novices who look up "verify" in a dictionary.) Uncle G 13:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a tag or something to bring such articles to somebody`s attention?-- Tresckow 21:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
A wikipedian is an unreliable source. Not only are their own translations self-published, but they are not independent of the projection of that translation upon the encyclopedia. That is, a wikipedian may use a translation to foist a POV surrupticiously upon the project. If the language is sufficiently obscure or the material is, it may go for quite a long time before being caught. We don't want to be in that situation. Therefore I propose that we only allow reliable source translations to be cited as sources. And we as wikipedians should not be arbitrating whether the translation is "accurate" whatever that means, we should be arbitrating whether it can be cited and verified. Wjhonson 16:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
In a few different articles, I've seen content cited to a particular TV show. Given the difficulty of finding a tape of a specific show (when a date or episode number is even given), do these citations really meet verifiability? (Citations to something generally available on DVD or VHS would be different.) In one case, I am almost certain a TV show citation was simply made up to satisfy demands for a citation. Guidance or comments on this? Gimmetrow 19:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess this takes the form of a remark on the way out the door (which is not to say I'm quitting entirely, but it will probably be my last posting on a policy-related page in the foreseeable future). While I am entirely in favor of Wikipedia's rising standards in regard to verifaibility when it comes to serious topics, I think these standards have become a fetish, to the point of forgetting that Wikipedia was supposed to have some Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy elements.
I always said that if Wikipedia became so tight-assed that we decided to delete List of songs containing covert references to real musicians and/or List of songs containing overt references to real musicians, it would be time for me to leave the project. Right now the former is up for deletion and I am the only vote to keep. The consensus is pretty clear.
This is not intended as blackmail: I understand that the poll is about the article, not about me, and I don't intend to entirely leave Wikipedia, but I take it as a gauge of an unwelcome change, and I do intend to cease, at least for a long time, to be a major contributor. (Details of my intentions on my user page.)
I would suggest that, judging by that poll, it is almost certainly also time either to put Ignore all rules up for deletion or at least to mark it as former policy. If this is about increasing Wikipedia's credibility, I would far more suggest keeping articles like that, but deleting ones like List of anti-folk bands and musicians or List of singer-songwriters (which are equally unverifiable, but much less interesting). - Jmabel | Talk 08:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
i donno if im in the right place to ask or not hehe , anyways , just wondering ; do famous places such are cities and landmarks which are shown in public need extreme sources ( for each new addition ) or not , because i was disscussing with some friend :) Ammar 01:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I just recently saw the proposed WP:ATTRIBUTE and I'm very excited about it. My main point: many editors, especially me, do not read the policies. All we know are the titles and wikipedia abbreviations. We argue saying "that's not WP:NPOV" and sometimes even use subsections like undue weight. But unfortunately we have our own interpretation of what these labels mean, especially when it comes to WP:VERIFY. I have been on wikipedia for a while now, and I didn't know the "not truth" part of "verifiable, not truth". This knowledge would have been very helpful in an argument that I recently had. The reason I'm excited about ATTRIBUTE is that it is a significantly better label than VERIFY. I can verify that 2+2=4 without external evidence, I can verify that a philosophical argument is correct through my reasoning, and I can verify that God exists by praying for long enough with an open heart. My point is that the label VERIFY is not effective, and the label ATTRIBUTE captures the essence of WP:V and WP:NOR in a way that gives us a much better arsenal of labels to back up the core content policies. Take a weapon like WP:NOTTRUTH, it could single-handedly end all the edit-wars on wikipedia :D -- Merzul 05:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I have recently been involved in an argument about whether an author should be allowed to cite his own self-published material.
Specifically the author is quoting "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications." from here ( WP:V) along with "If an editor has published the results of his or her research in a reliable publication, then s/he may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our NPOV policy." from WP:NOR.
In my interperetation, these two statements are not intended to apply to the same person, or at least attempting to apply both exceptions at once is a tight stretch. Isn't citing your own self-published material more or less just spam? Is it worth amending this guideline to mention that someone should not cite their own self-published work? Or is my interpretation off the mark here? - Rainwarrior 09:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
As a result of This thread at WP:ANI as well as all the associated nominations for AfD, I am proposing we clarify the "Burden of Proof" section of this policy. As currently written, it gives harbor to the idea that every single uncited source should be deleted on site. That is not a constructive path. As a look at even a few of our Wikipedia:Featured Articles will show, there are few, if any, articles here that could survive that level of scrutiny.
The new proposed wording is:
"Burden of evidence"
The burden of evidence lies primarily with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. If an article topic is impossible to furnish with reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.
At the same time, we must realize that we have much work to do before every statement on Wikipedia is sourced, and that other editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. There may be better avenues than completely removing the statement. It is not practical nor desirable to remove every unreferenced statement. As a preferred alternative, consider looking for a source and adding it in yourself. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider posting it to the talk page. Alternatively, you may tag the sentence by adding the {{ fact}} template, or tag the article by adding {{ not verified}} or {{ unsourced}}. You can also make unsourced sentences invisible in the article by adding <!-- before the section you want to hide and --> after it, until reliable sources have been provided. Leave a note on the talk page or edit summary explaining what you have done. [1]
Be careful not to err too far on including unsourced statements in the case of information about living people. These articles fall under WP:BLP which strongly encourages all statements to be sourced, especially if they are negative.
The above version has several advantages:
Adopting this version will keep us heading towards a better-referenced encyclopedia, without the havoc of willy-nilly deletion of statements and articles. Johntex\ talk 09:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
This proposal is, at root, a weakening of the policy in a time when Wikipedia needs to focus on strengthening the policy on this utterly foundational matter to the success of this Project. Think of it: Many elementary school (!) do not allow WP to be used as a reliable source, and nearly all high school and college instructors do not allow it. That says to me we need to re-visit our paradigm of the past.
As has already been stated by another user above, "a big problem with Wikipedia is that the verification policy is not applied rigorously enough."
And as has also already been stated by another user above, "it shouldn't have to take time to find sources because the editor adding his addition should have his source right in front of him and be able to easily cite and attribute from it. Else wise its original research or (at worse) unattributed plagiarism."
I could not agree more.
To cite Burden of evidence, "the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it."
The next paragraph of the policy is clearly optional and should stay that way. "Any edit lacking a source may be removed [not "should be removed"; not may not be removed until"], but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. If you want [not "However, you must"]..." add tags first.
No one is arguing for indiscriminate deletion of materials. Any argument saying that people are wanting that is a straw man. What I arguing for is policy-driven deletion of materials. Removal of material without warning or tagging is clearly permitted in the policy, but qualified by a time frame: "Be careful not to err too far on the side of not upsetting editors by leaving unsourced information in articles for too long".
The time-frame standard for removing unsourced material is "for too long". This is obviously open to a very broad interpretation. This is why there is a proposal elsewhere to define the period for new articles to 14 days.
The articles I have AfDed or removed materials from on grounds of WP:V (among other things) have been unsourced for years (the lone exception was 1.5 years), and many of them that were tagged {{references}} were afterward subject to dozens or scores of edits from the same users.
This means that {{references}} is standardly ignored, because it is not enforced. But somehow, when an AfD comes along, sources start showing up in just hours or days! Because people finally take WP:V seriously.
So this argument about "you have to give people more time" is just plain spurious. They generally do not need more time. They generally do not need a gentle nudge from a {{references}} tag. The editor adding his or her addition should have his or her source right in front of them and be able to easily cite and attribute from it. Else wise it is original research or (at worse) unattributed plagiarism. No, what editors sometimes need is an alarming announcement where their article's existence is suddenly at stake...and then the sources start showing up in just hours or days! I am not saying this approach is always the case, but there should certainly be room for it because it is needed and fully supported in policy.
Sorry to go quoting Jimmy Wales, but he is completely right on in this:
I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons."
Yep, I have been doing this to try to help Wikipedia become better and adhere to its foundational values. And some people have not liked it. And now someone is trying to weaken the policy.
I think most who have been upset have become so because they have become very accustomed and comfortable in an environment where policy is either ignored or just not enforced.
In that environment, policy has become merely what editors and some admins want it to say, not what it plainly and clearly says. Or, editors and some admins just do their own self-styled thing and follow their own subjective views, and they pull out a few policies here-and-there to meet their preferences.
No, the last thing we need is a weakening of policies. We need the current ones to be stringently enforced while they are concurrently strengthened for the new climate in which Wikipedia finds itself.
CyberAnth 00:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Folks might want to visit some of the many discussions around about the mass deletion of fair-use images by certain admins. It has caused a tremendous upheavel and stir among many Wikipedians. I agree that all fair-use images of living people should be replaced by free ones, except in the case of famous ones "with an image to protect".
But the whole matter of massive deletion of images by a certain admin was brought to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Chowbok. The vast majority of people sided against the user's deletions, until this: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Chowbok#Outside view by Jimbo Wales.
Folks should definitely have a look.
CyberAnth 01:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Two points
Any thoughts? Agne 07:27, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I too like this proposal, as it encourages discussion between editors and it encourages people to look for sources. As an example, I added a {{ citation needed}} tag to the Eurostar article yesterday [14]. Eurostar claim that their services are directly responsible for "a saving of 393,000 carbon dioxide-producing short-haul flights". A claim was added today that this figure is inaccurate because many people who travelled on Eurostar would not have made the journey by air had Eurostar not been an option.
This could be true, it could be spin made up by airlines on the defensive or it could be original research. If it is the former then it should be easily verifiable, for example by passenger surveys or hard figures (if the total number of travellers on all modes decreases during periods when Eurostar is not operating for example). If it is spin from airlines, it should be verifiable that the source of the statement is the airline industry. If the statement is verifiably true, then not including it would potentially harm the neutrality of the article, so had I immediately deleted it as not verified when I saw it rather than giving it chance to be verified then I would be doing NPOV a disservice. If however it turns out the figure is neither verifiably true, nor verifiable as having been stated by the airline industry, then it should be deleted. I do not have a source for the statement, but that does not mean there isn't one. Thryduulf 00:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Without a doubt, we should insist upon verifiability and references. However, if we deleted or blanked things with no cites, then we'd probably be down about 75% of the encyclopædia.
Rather than slapping an afd or prod tag on an article, try and find some cites. It's a lot more constructive, and it makes Wikipedia even more reliable!
Lankiveil 08:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
It would be really nice if Template:dubious was mentioned in the guideline, because I really hate seeing those massive disputed tags on top of pages where there is a dispute about some one detail, and I think it is also useful for more complicated questions such as quoting out of context. There is now a draft that probably reflects some of the points from the above discussion at WP:ATT#How to cite and request a source, except I have already inserted my support for Template:dubious. :) However, none of this should soften our stance against information that is embarrassing to wikipedia: crackpot science, crackpot history and crackpot philosophy should be aggressively eradicated. -- Merzul 01:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I found this pretty amusing: under the 'Burden of evidence' and 'Biographies of living persons' sections, the references quoting Jimmy Wales do not contain the quotes printed in the article. Is this incorrect? Currently it's reference numbers 2 and 3. Joie de Vivre 16:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
A rather iffy secondary source (The Skeptic's Dictionary [16]) makes some extreme claims via quotes from an affidavit. The Skeptic's Dictionary gives a link to the text of the affidavit that's hosted on a POV site. This page says that the affidavit was presented in a 1986 court case. I've examined the Docket Entries List for that court case, and the affidavit isn't part of the court record. Therefore, the oiginal affidavit is unverifiable. It only exists on POV sites, and has the text only -- no pdf or jpeg with the original text and signature.
Can these extreme claims from the affidavit (which the author of the Skeptic's Dictionary doesn't corroborate) be quoted in an article in Wikipedia? Does WP:V apply in this case? Or could it be argued that The Skeptic's Dictionary is a qualified secondary source, so it makes no difference that the original affidavit isn't available? Thanks! TimidGuy 21:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Well Timidguy and I are on opposite sides of the debate, however, we both have the shared intention of following wikipedia guidelines. How would one go about verifying the existence of the affidavit? The entire affidavit is listed here [
[17]], and it sure looks real enough, however, I don't think trancenet counts as a RS.
Or does it?
If it doesn't does anyone have suggestions how one could go about verifying or getting one's hands on the origonal affidavit? Sethie 23:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I have been calling for the Speedy Deletion of Benjamin M. Emanuel, which hopefully by the time this is read will be deleted for being an attack page. I maintian that the article is an attack page because it cites anti-Semitic blogs as its source to assert that its subject the father of US Rep. Rahm Emanuel is a murderous terrorist. On the talk page Talk:Benjamin M. Emanuel I cited and quoted the wiki-standards that called for this article to be deleted. I was opposed in this by User:Mel Etitis who I have been told is an Admin. He wrote on the talk page "Moreover, WP:V#SELF simply doesn't rule out the reference to a blog, it rules out the use of blogs as (the sole) source for what articles say about their subjects. if the article said that he was a murderer, and cited a blog, that would be wrong; if it says that he's accused of murder in a blog, that's very different." Apparently he feels that because the article uses qualifiers like “asserting… speculates…not to document his sources…tinged with anti-semitism, and also does not cite all of its sources…assert…speculates" that this prevents this article from being slander. I replied "The use of skeptical caveats does not allow for wiki-pages to use unsubstantiated charges that come from non-reliable unnotable sources. Saying 'While most people are skeptical that Joe Smith is part of a terrorist network, private investigator Sam Incognito insists that this is true' is no more allowable than just saying 'Joe Smith is part of a terrorist network'. Then another Admin User:NawlinWiki told me that the page should stand unless the regular AfD process decided against the question of notability. NalinWiki was the admin that removed my first call for speedy deletion and the title of her edit in the history page stated "doesn't seem to be an attack page, has sources". Is this really the case? Can any charge be repeated from a blog as long as you say it came from a blog and add caveats around the claims? I thought http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources_of_dubious_reliability banned such things, but now admins are posting on my user talk page that I'm "misusing templates", being "disruptive" and "abusive", causing an "edit war", and that I'm the one "misinterpreting the guidelines concerning blogs". Please instruct me.-- Wowaconia 04:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This is not just about the one article, this is about whether if I knew of a blog that claimed Johntex was a puppy-eater and then wrote a wiki-page called "Puppy eaters" and said "While many people familiar with Johntex's habits claim that they can not remember ever seeing him acting like a puppy eater, JohntexEatsPuppies.blog has made claims to the contrary, "You just have to look at Johntex to see that he's a puppy eater" said Xetnhoj who would not elaborate further (ref = JohntexEatsPuppies.blog). Now go back and replace the words "puppy eater" with "murdering terrorist" and you'll see why I have a problem with this use of blogs.-- Wowaconia 09:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd say that this is inherently true. A blog is *always* a good, verifiable source for what that blog says. Whether the information is notable enough to include in the article would need to be decided with reference to factors like how prominent the blog is, etc. It's messy, but I think if a well-known and respected blog started making such accusations about somebody, we should report it. If a largely unknown and unimportant blog makes the accusation, we don't care. JulesH 10:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
An overwhelming majority of Wikipedia's information is unreferenced. Therefore, enforcing the Verifiability policy would entail destroying an overwhelming majority of Wikipedia's information, and biting tons of newcomers in the process.
Something's definitely wrong.
I believe it's because most information is contributed by newcomers, who are unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policies, such as our verifiability requirements. ( Here's my reference.) In contrast, most established users, instead of adding referenced information, are fighting vandalism and getting involved in people politics.
My own experience confirms this. When I joined Wikipedia in February 2005, none of the information I contributed to articles was referenced. I only learnt how to format references in September 2005. Since then, when I contribute information to articles, I try to provide a reference (though I don't always succeed).
We should make it easier for newcomers to follow the Verifiability policy, while encouraging established users (who are familiar with the policy) to contribute referenced information.
Based on my experience, following the Verifiability policy requires three steps:
How could we make these three steps easier for newcomers? -- J.L.W.S. The Special One 14:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the following two points:
However, I stand by my statement that we should make the Verifiability policy easier for newcomers to follow. If most newcomers referenced information they add, it would save us lots of time trying to find references and eliminate original research. -- J.L.W.S. The Special One 09:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
(undent)We now have as part of an edit the count of characters added or deleted. It seems to me improbable that someone adding several hundred or more characters is involved in minor copyediting, as opposed to adding new information that should be sourced. How hard would it be for the software to be changed so that when the added-character count is above a threshold, the system checks if at least one URL has been added, and, if not, tells the user about the problem before the edit is saved? Something like: "Content added without a source is much more likely to be questioned or deleted. Please consider adding a URL or other information to your edit that shows where your information came from; see WP:CITE for how to add a complete citation." John Broughton | ♫ 15:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
A question on this policy: the word "challenged" in "material that is challenged or likely to be challenged". Does the addition of a citation needed tag automatically constitute a challenge? So that it is always wrong to remove such a tag without adding a citation unless it is mistakenly applied to something that was already covered by a source? I've also looked in vain for something about "obvious facts": this relates to an editor's comment that (the tag) "is like asking for a citation attesting to the speed of light in a Physics article". This relates to a very minor dispute at Talk:Beowulf#Tag removal but I'm really more interested in establishing what I (and presumably other editors trying to follow policy) should do in future. Thanks. Notinasnaid 14:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
That's the trouble with giving a specific example... the question, to simplify: is it ever legitimate to remove a
citation needed tag (unless the text is already covered by one)? In what situation?Does the addition of a [citation needed] tag automatically constitute a challenge? So that it is always wrong to remove such a tag without adding a citation unless it is mistakenly applied to something that was already covered by a source?
Notinasnaid
15:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the reply. Your first paragraph was actually very helpful as it clarified what is meant by "challenged". I really didn't want to try escalating the dispute just yet.
But I do have one further question. I am cautious in this area because I was once found to be in the wrong for removing a {{unsourced}} tag from an article with good references but no inline citations. Should not citations be used for everything in the article, rather than just references at the end? For instance, should not speed of light cite the speed quoted? And for that matter, the statement that it's important, represented by c and so forth? (I should add that I have no intention of making a point of that article, this is just an illustration to be sure that the policy is understood). Notinasnaid 18:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This seems to be taking a wrong turn... did you really think my hair-splitting comments more helpful than my general advise to work by Wikipedia:Consensus? ...doesn't seem to promise much good.
How references are "formatted" is pretty open. Rules involve not to change formatting of the references someone else introduced without generally acceptable reason, unless there's consensus (this has been the subject of ArbCom cases), and whatever referencing technique you use, try to make it as clear as possible. Further, see WP:CITE.
When (for instance) a person has two or three well-known published biographies, and the Wikipedia article on that person summarizes what is covered by all these established biographies, then there is no reason to add a footnotes pointing to each of these biographies after every sentence: just list the two or three biographies in the "References" section.
For the "Manuscript" section in the Beowulf article, whatever that makes clear where the theories about the age and other characteristics of the manuscript can be found in external sources. That can be a single source, that gives an overview of the different theories, or that can be a link to a separate source for each of the theories. -- Francis Schonken 19:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
At present, we have the sentence "The principles upon which these policies are based are negotiable only at the Foundation level." I suggest that this sentence is removed, because:
Enchanter 00:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe the above discussion is wrongly reasoned. Moreover, I do not believe that such an important and long-standing statement should be removed on such short discussion over a weekend. The sentence in question does not state that Verifiabiilty is a non-negotiable requirement of the foundation -- it states that NPOV, NOR and Verifiability are based upon a priniciple that is. The observation that Verifiability has a guideline status in other language Wikipedias does not change the sitaution one iota.
Accordingly, I am replacing the phrase, with a slight addition to make the point clearer. Robert A.West ( Talk) 18:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
No mentioning of "Foundation" or Jimbo himself for WP:V (note that for NPOV Jimbo did name himself as ultimate authority a few times, see references in WP:NPOV) - just the whole weight of deciding on WP:V *internally* (an internal war, not a war with himself, nor a war or even an "issue" with the Foundation). Wikipedians, and that's it. So, no I don't agree with Robert's update, nor with his chain of reasoning. Please, start to feel a bit responsible, all of you. WP:V depends on all of us, there's no "magic protection" from the Foundation for this policy. There's no way of getting too comfortable (and doze off) over this, expecting that the Foundation will straighten this out if it goes wrong. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but there's no benefit in pre-emptively devolving responsibility regarding this policy to them (at a point we aren't even sure they want to take this responsibility: if you want to know, ask them, you should know where you can find them). -- Francis Schonken 20:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)Actually, I consider WP:V to be so central to Wikipedia that if there were ever a significant majority of contributors who wanted to do away with it, we would have an internal war on our hands that would make the userbox wars look simple by comparison. ( [19])
If this has been addressed already, apologies. Could someone point me to the proper archive in that case?
There's a grey area it seems when it comes to organizations and religions. This section seems to need expansion and/or clarification to include organizations as well as authors.
A narrow reading of this policy, as written, would mean that the Catechism of the Catholic Church of the Roman Catholic Church would not be kosher, even in an article on the Church or the Catechism. Neither would the Book of Mormon for the LDS, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures for the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the The Constitutions of the Free-Masons for Freemasonry. The trouble is, is that all these are used as sources in their respective articles.
How about a Greenpeace press-release as a source for a policy position of theirs? How about the NCEES model professional engineering law [21] in the Professional Engineer article. How about this DoD transcript in an article about the Guantánamo Bay detainment camp. Again, narrowly read as currently written, this policy would seem to state "no" as well.
I'm not trying to hold up the Book of Mormon as a WP:RS for the North American Indians, but it ought to be acceptable for LDS articles when properly cited and used. Organizations need to be able to speak for themselves, and these statements considered reliable statements of their own positions. WP:NPOV and WP:NOT are still important tools to use to keep articles from becoming soapbox.
Existing text:
Proposed text:
Thanks, MARussellPESE 20:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
On a similar matter, can I have comments on this question. Organization X on their website makes a claim about themselves or their activities. There is no external evidence beyond their statement about themselves, to confirm or deny its accuracy. I'd like to see this situation more clearly addressed if possible, and clarification that we must make clear when it's cited, that it is their self-claim, and not treat it as a verified fact (because we can verify they claim it, but not verify if it's true). FT2 ( Talk | email) 15:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a question, comment, and thought experiment, maybe not in that order. The question is, can Wikipedia articles cite an article in an open-publishing format, such as Philica or ArXiv, as if it were a vetted source? Note that this is already happening. Obviously, it would be odd for wikipedia, as the most prominent open-publishing experiment, to have a policy against citing open-pub sources. But then, we don't cite other wikipedia articles, we just link to them.
Still, if scholarly open publishing takes off (as I imagine many wikipedians hope it will), we are going to have to deal with a much wider universe than "peer-reviewed" vs. "self-published." For example, we will have to deal with incomprehensible screeds that have been published, and peer reviewed, but are rated very low by the reviewers. And (of course) there will not be one single rating system, there will be dozens or hundreds. What is our game plan in this scenario? Ethan Mitchell 04:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Could I get some clarification please on this language?
Where editors use their own English translation of a non-English source as a quote in an article, there should be clear citation of the foreign-language original, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation.
Over at Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat, there is a difference of opinion about how this should be parsed. What does, "there should be a clear citation of the foreign language original" mean? It's slightly ambiguous. Does this mean "the article should clearly point to the foreign language original" -- i.e., the usual meaning of WP:CITE; or does it mean "the original source being translated or paraphrased should be included in the article", as suggested in the proposed WP:ATT#Language? I could argue both sides of this one, but would rather know what the actual practice has been here. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 18:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
English-language sources should be used whenever possible, because this is the English Wikipedia. Sources in other languages are acceptable when there are no English equivalents. Published translations are preferred to editors' translations; when editors use their own translations, the original-language material should be provided too, perhaps in a footnote, so that readers can check the translation for themselves.
Recommending ("recommending" as in: there's no guideline that makes this obligatory, but usually this should work) to use the following kind of format for translations:
<quote in original language> | <translation of the same> |
Or, for multi-paragraph quotes:
<quote in original language, 1st paragraph> | <translation of 1st paragraph> | ||
<quote in original language, 2nd paragraph> | <translation of 2nd paragraph> | ||
... | ... |
In wikicode (table syntax):
{| |- | |<quote in original language, 1st paragraph> | |<translation of 1st paragraph> |- | |<quote in original language, 2nd paragraph> | |<translation of 2nd paragraph> |- | |... | |... |}
Note that this format can be used in footnotes afterwards, if the quote is deemed relevant & reliable, and the translation accepted.
I implemented this (with comments) in User:Andries/Prem Rawat/Non-English#Schnabel 1982. -- Francis Schonken 15:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Why are blogs not reliable for information from bands and artists, such as info about line up changes and reasons for breaking up, ect? I would say these would be the most reliable sources, as blogs are pretty much used as press releases now. Diabolical 03:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Blogs published by the band about itself should be OK as a source, though the content has to meet the criteria listed: Relevant to notability (not that they recently held a birthday party for a band member), not contentious (claims that they are the "best" can't be sourced to their own blog), not self-serving (not advertising a future gig), and not about a third party (not their opinions of some other band). That rather limits usable blog content to such info as the timeline of the band, who the members are, names of songs, and their self-described style. Gimmetrow 02:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
In France, these days, there are a number of bloggers who are legal professionals (such as: attorney, law professor at a major university, etc.) and that comment, from a professional point of view, on legal issues. For instance, they will put up lengthy and well-sourced comments of bills, laws etc. Some (Éolas, Frédéric Rolin) are quoted by the national press.
To me, a blog by a well-known professional (I'm talking professors at major universities etc.) on his field of expertise is probably considerably more reliable than a press article, since the press article is very likely to have been written by a journalist with no expertise in that field.
For that reason, I think that we should reflect that in our guidelines. David.Monniaux 10:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
The issue with self-published blogs, is that there is no fact checking in the act of publishing. I would agree with David above, knowing that many newspapers that supposedly do fact checking, don't do it, or do it quite unprofessionally. So, at end of the day, we ought to assess these sources individually and within the constrains imposed in the policy: "may be acceptable" and "exercise caution." ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
This issue has come up in WT:ATT, but since there is no certainty that will ever be policy, I'll raise the issue here. If a self-published or unreliable source is discussed in reliable secondary sources, and that discussion is properly used in an article, which should govern: exclusion as a doubtful source, or inclusion as a primary source with interpretation provided by the secondary sources?
Example #1: A self-published webcomic with feminist themes becomes notable and is written about in secondary sources. Under the policy as strictly interpreted, one could not reference the comic in an article about the comic, but one could in an article about the artist. Even if we don't distinguish an article about the comic from one about the author, one certainly could not mention it in an article on "Feminist themes in comics," even if a majority of the secondary sources discussed the webcomic.
Example #2: The National Enquirer publishes a theory that the gold has been removed from Fort Knox and the site is being used for secret research into alien technologies. The rumor becomes popular and notable, and is commented upon in secondary sources. There isn't enough material for a full article, so a section is created in the article on the gold depository. Although the secondary sources refuting the rumor can be cited, and their quotations of the original article can be re-quoted, the exact same quotations could not be cited back to the original article as a primary source. In fact, by strict interpretation, even an article on "Conspiracy theories about Fort Knox" could not use the source, because the article is not about the author or publisher.
These examples just seem silly. Now, in real Wikipedia articles, reasonable editors don't have problems, but this can lead to reasoning that is almost Talmudic in its complexity:
I am not suggesting opening the floodgates – I have argued long and hard against doing that – but I can't think why we should prohibit using some primary sources and not others, subject always to the need for secondary sources and for care about editions and that on-line sources have not been altered. And, I can't think why we should prefer mental gymnastics to a straightforward statement. Robert A.West ( Talk) 19:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) If a Wikipedia article discusses whether unreliable newspaper U committed libel or not, the rule cited by Badlydrawnjeff would allow articles published in U to be cited and quoted, unless there are claims about third parties. But the person allegedly being libeled is a third party, so no passage that includes the name of the person allegedly being libeled could be quoted from U, at least as the rule is currently written. -- Gerry Ashton 23:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
"Quite frankly, I don't think any reasonable editor would object to such a citation, and adding such a citation can easily be defended on the grounds of
WP:IAR" I have had to go to substantial lengths, in the past, to defend the use of a usenet post to indicate that a concept was in use on usenet on a particular date. Whether or not the editors who insisted on removing it were acting reasonably or not isn't really relevant -- they clearly believed that policy prohibited it. Many (perhaps even most) wikipedia editors are not aware of IAR -- it isn't the most well publicised of policies -- so relying on that is perhaps not ideal. I firmly believe that this kind of use is both acceptable and within policy, although the current wording of policy does make it difficult to see that it is.
JulesH
09:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
from the originals, alongside, say, David McCullough's commentary on the incident and its relation to the Alien and Sedition Acts. What, besides the passage of time, is the difference? Robert A.West ( Talk) 20:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
When I read an article in Wikipedia, I want to read the truth. What value is there for it to be verified if it is not the truth? Why on earth would someone want to read that which is false but verified as opposed to the truth? 01001 00:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that truth is a laudable goal for any publication - but without having some kind of reference to support a statement, how can you be certain of its truth... There are some truths that can be inferred quite simply (such as 2+2=4), but there are more complex truths that cannot be simply stated - for example, the Religion in Scouting has been such an article - I have had personal experience on some of the points discussed in the article, so I knew them to be true - but without an independent verification of those points, they were not valid... Ultimately, I think the article is now that much stronger and balanced because the verifiability policy (and a few editors) have caused myself (and other editors) to be careful to research and reference the article. So the question is - what is truth without the ability to verify it as truth? Horus Kol 11:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I wrote an essay pertaining to verifiability and original sources, which can be found at WP:NRSNVNA. Is the "see also" section an appropriate place to link to this essay? If not, where is? Thanks! - Chardish 06:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Gerry, some editors believe that lists of that type should not be admitted to Wikipedia (cats are better) and it is of course policy that lists of foos should be completely sourced. Grace Note 05:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)