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Has this new proposal been discussed anywhere? What is the reasoning behind the change? — Michael Z. 2006-07-13 03:43 Z
It was not my intention to present this page as an approved policy. WP:CYR is still under discussion and I see this page as a part of WP:CYR.
My inclining toward the National system is driven by the desire to use a system easily recognized by native English speakers. Based on my experience, English speakers are more comfortable with “i” than “y” when facing such letters as “я”, “ю”, “є”. English speakers are also puzzled by a set of consonants, which are common in Cyrillic, like “zhzh”, “shch”, and the simplifications implemented in the simplified National system seems very reasonable to me. I also value the fact that the National system is the official system approved in the Ukraine, following the work of a Committee of professionals. Having in hands the BGN/PCGN system they still found preferable to agree on a slightly different transliteration system for contemporary Ukrainian language.
I recognize the long-standing use of BGN/PCGN in English-language Ukrainian literature. However, I don’t see valid reasons to stick with some custom-made modified BGN/PCGN system. If something has a well established name, regardless of whether it’s BGN/PCGN, or some modification of it, or something else, we agree to use that well established name. But we need a transliteration system for something which is not well established. And for this we should better use a well established system. KPbIC 06:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
For the sake of comparison (feel free to add more words):
Cyrillic | linguistics | BGN/PCGN | BGN/PCGN simplified | National 1996 | simplified National 1996 | National 2010/UNGEGN | Library of Congress (ALA–LC) |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
-ий | -yj | -yy | -y | -yi | -yi | –yi | -yĭ |
-ій | -ij | -iy | -y | -ii | -ii | -ii | -iĭ |
Україна | Ukrajina | Ukrayina | Ukrayina | Ukraina | Ukraina | Ukraina | Ukraïna |
Київ | Kyjiv | Kyyiv | Kyiv | Kyiv | Kyiv | Kyiv | Kyïv |
Запоріжжя | Zaporižžja | Zaporizhzhya | Zaporizhya | Zaporizhzhia | Zaporizhia | Zaporizhzhia | Zaporiz͡hz͡hi͡a |
згода | zhoda | z∙hoda | zhoda | zghoda | zghoda | zghoda | zhoda |
сім’я | sim”ja | sim”ya | simya | sim”ia | simia | simia | simʹi͡a |
сміється | smijet’sja | smiyet’sya | smiyetsya | smiiet’sia | smiietsia | smiietsia | smii͡etʹsi͡a |
ювілей | juvilej | yuviley | yuviley | yuvilei | yuvilei | yuvilei | i͡uvileĭ |
яєшня | jaješnja | yayeshnya | yayeshnya | yaieshnia | yaieshnia | yaieshnia | i͡ai͡eshni͡a |
щабельок | ščabel’ok | shchabel’ok | shchabelok | schabel’ok | schabel’ok | shchabelok | shchabelʹok |
сміття | smittja | smittya | smitya | smittia | smittia | smittia | smitti͡a |
Ending "-iй" is not common; ending "-ий" is much more common (червона/червоний). The later is given as "-yi" is the National system, which is the best way to represent "-ий", as it looks to me. I may prefer "simya" over "simia", but, again, the idea of going according to personal tastes is very wrong. I’m strongly advocating for sticking with a professionally established system.
KPbIC
06:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
The guideline for the transliteration of the letter "щ" as "sch" makes no sense, even in the light of an "attempt to make sense to English-speakers." In literary (official!) Ukrainian, "щ" is pronounced as "shch," NOT as "sch" (which implies the Russian pronounciation of "щ"). Yes, some Ukrainians pronounce it the Russian way, but why reflect dialectal or bad grammar in our spellings of Ukrainian words? Consequently, what is the point of simplifying the information for English-speakers if the information is false? I'm going to revise this policy. Cossack 00:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't trust the Ukrainian government on this one, funny as that may sound. If you look at the Kiev metro map, the "transliteration system" used is utterly random, erratic, and basically "от балды." I'm also fairly certain the vast majority of materials will use "shch," including those on Wikipedia (see Viktor Yushchenko, Slobozhanshchyna). Maybe the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences has better recommendations for the transliterations of geographic names? Cossack 00:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
According to the last official transliteration system Щ is spelt as SHCH [1]-- Serhii Riabovil ( talk) 15:42, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I've changed the page header to make it clear that this is a proposal, and doesn't correspond to current practice, with a link to Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Cyrillic)#Ukrainian. It's already a problem that we have that guideline and Wikipedia:NAME#Ukrainian_names. — Michael Z. 2008-09-27 06:50 z
Per my note at the notice board, I've decided to clean up the transliteration advice to make it non-redundant, consistent with standards, and suitable to be declared a real guideline. I'll consolidate everything here, leaving behind only links or the barest summaries at WP:CYR#Ukrainian, and WP:NAME#Ukrainian names, where only naming regulations belong, and not details of transliteration systems.
I won't diverge from the substance or spirit of current practice or the guidelines in place. But I'm going to totally rewrite the text. Thanks for your patience with my efforts. — Michael Z. 2008-10-22 22:34 z
Now both Ukraine and the UN use the National 2010 system, for all romanization. Place and personal names will mostly appear in news and references according to this system. It is very close to the BGN and National 1996 systems that we have been recommending, so differences in romanization will be few and barely noticeable.
I propose that the official system supercede these two, unifying the romanization for general use and for place names, and simplifying the guideline.
Questions? Comments? Objections? — Michael Z. 2013-05-02 02:15 z
I propose that we add a guideline recommending the Library of Congress (ALA–LC) system be used for transliterating Ukrainian in references, including titles, authors, publishers, etc.
This system is used by practically all English-language libraries, academicians, and publishers in the world (the British Library started using it nearly 40 years ago). When a reader sees a reference in Wikipedia, the name may as well help them find it elsewhere. — Michael Z. 2013-06-21 16:13 z
Is anyone keeping this page updated?
As it stands, I found it extremely difficult to find the standardised transliteration style used for English Wikipedia. Compare this page to the Wikipedia Russian transliteration standard page. I found the Russian one without any difficulties & it's all laid out ready to use as a reference dependent on whether it's basic, linguistic or technical.
I'm still clicking around trying to work out whether to use this or hidden from plain sight somewhere on this page! Having encountered variations of ï as "yi", "ji", "i" alone in various articles and items, I don't see how an English reader will recognise the a word/name in one article as being the same word/name in another. I think we all comprehend that Ukrainian words/names basically go in one eyeball and out the other for Anglo-Celtic speakers already. Compounding polysyllabic words/names with variations on the transliteration defeats the purpose of informing readers. I know I'm confounded.
Is anyone willing to collaborate on sorting this page out in order to emulate the comprehensible Russian entry ( WP:RUS)? Note that I left a similar missive on Romanization of Ukrainian talk page last month and still haven't had a response from anyone. Cheers! -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 01:21, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
There are many people in Ukraine who speak Russian, as we all know. However, it isn't clear whether we should give these people's names in Russian or Ukrainian, or both. This is especially true for article titles. Most pages that I can find provide only the Ukrainian name, even of those who grew up Russian-speaking. I feel like we should specify on this page whether to use Russian or Ukrainian transliteration. RGloucester — ☎ 19:29, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Okay, User:KPbIC proposed using the National system back in 2006 (top of page), and I came around and proposed it again in 2013 ( #Update to the National 2010 system). Since there’s been no objection, and the 2010 version of the National system has been officially used for all purposes for eight years now, I am going to wait another month, then be bold and change the guideline as follows:
Please comment, or not. — Michael Z. 2018-07-31 19:38 z
I went and did it: diff. — Michael Z. 2019-11-19 19:58 z
This:
is official rules? In official version 2. М'який знак і апостроф латиницею не відтворюються. Микола Василечко ( talk) 19:44, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
This advice page has been stable for a long time and is widely used without contestation. Can we agree to promote its status? Are any changes needed for this? (Perhaps it is too detailed in its suggestions for style, &c., and a convention should be pared down to the most minimal romanization method.) — Michael Z. 14:03, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
I propose designating Wikipedia:Romanization of Ukrainian as a WP:guideline and supplement to the WP:Manual of Style, with the shortcut link MOS:UKR. — Michael Z. 03:05, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Ukrainian letter |
English transcription | Context | Examples |
---|---|---|---|
є / ю / я | ie / iu / ia | after consonant letters (palatalizing) | Тетяна → Tetiana |
ye / yu / ya | elsewhere (iotated) | Надія → Nadiya, Майя → Maiya, Касьян → Kasyan, Слов’янськ → Slovyansk | |
ї | yi | Макіївка → Makiyivka, Ананьїв → Ananyiv, Мар’їнка → Maryinka | |
й | y | where it iotates a vowel | Йосип → Yosyp, Олексійовець → Oleksiyovets, Йельський → Yelskyi |
i | elsewhere | найостанніший → naiostannishyi, Юрій → Yurii | |
ь | i | before а, е, и, о, у but not between parts of compound words | Альона → Aliona (but: Севастопольенерго → Sevastopolenerho) |
' (apostrophe) (may be omitted if it won't make the spelling ambiguous, like in Ільїне → Ilyine, which may be read and transcribed back as Ілийне) | before є, ї, ю, я, й (i. e. before iotation) | Ананьїв → Anan'yiv, батальйон → batal'yon | |
(omitted) | elsewhere | Львів → Lviv | |
’ (apostrophe) | ' (apostrophe) (may be omitted if it won't make the spelling ambiguous, like in Солов’ї → Solovyi, which may be read and transcribed back as Соловий) | Руч’ї → Ruch'yi |
Note that the Ukrainian national romanization system is designed and intended for common (international) Latin transcription and better be adjusted for use in English. The proposed changes will make the romanization system more logical, consistent and reversible, and the transcription will be more correctly pronounced.
In general and as a whole, the proposed English transcription, compared to the currently used Ukrainian national romanization system, is about as common for Ukrainian place names [1] [2] (excluding Kyiv and Mykolaiv, which will be exceptions, per WP:COMMONNAME), 2–3 times more common for Ukrainian surnames [3] [4], and 5–6 times more common for Ukrainian personal names [5] [6]. Moreover, the proposed transcription provides more common spelling than any of the accepted standards for romanizing Ukrainian.
1. Transcribe ї always as yi so that it won't be transcribed the same as й and і and wouldn't be read as one of these. Instead, it will be pronounced correctly, and the transcription will be more unambiguous and reversible. Yet this spelling is less common.
Compare: війя, мрії, мрій, герої, герой → viiia, mrii, mrii, heroi, heroi (current) / viiya, mriyi, mrii, heroyi, heroi (proposed).
This spelling is used by Britannica: Mykolayiv, Makiyivka, Izmayil.
2. Transcribe є, ю, я, йо not after consonant letters as ye, yu, ya, yo. This will usually be pronounced correctly, unlike ie, iu, ia, io. This spelling is also more typical for English and much more common.
Compare: Заяць, Майя, Надія, Коломия → Zaiats, Maiia, Nadiia, Kolomyia (current) / Zayats, Maiya, Nadiya, Kolomyya (proposed).
Britannica uses this spelling as well: Slov'yansk, Yenakiyeve, Kolomyya.
VSL ( talk) 12:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia should, in all cases and for whatever writing system, stick with International Standard systems. No exceptions except in the cases where there is a commonly-used English spelling (e.g., Lviv, Kyiv, etc.). -- TaivoLinguist (Taivo) ( talk) 22:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
We have an existing international standard we should use that rather than cook up something new. (i'm saying this as someone who prefers yi, ya whatever in my own work and name), if reversibility is a concern we can always include LOC trans-lit with ligatures and diacritics in the lead— blindlynx 21:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
The first thing - I'm not sure that the Wiki allows a such original scientific work. The second: I don't like any apostrophe in Ukrainian romanization. You do not need a apostrophe in words such as batalyon because the Ukrainian language has assimilation by "softness" in roots and suffixes. Beside it, we have hardening of some consonants, so Ruchyi can't have soft readding. The "Polish" way of writing of iotateds (Aliona) is really good for the Ukrainian. The current romanization system would work perfect if it transliterated any letter Й as Y (ИЇ is a rare combination). And YI in all positions is excessive solution because any after-vowel "I" becomes Ї in the Ukrainian (exceptions only at junction of prefix and root). So, keep root-initial YI and simple I otherwise.-- Юе-Артеміш ( talk) 17:01, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
The section on indicating stress says we can use an acute accent over a vowel in romanized text, e.g. Zaporízhzhia.
This should probably be removed. This usage is common in native Ukrainian dictionaries and readers (e.g., as Запорі́жжя), but as far as I know is not a convention for use in romanized text. Our universal way to indicate stress for any language in Wikipedia is in phonemic or phonetic transcriptions per MOS:IPA and WP:IPA.
Any objections? — Michael Z. 18:39, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Since there are many opinions for following one of the
existing standards for general romanization of Ukrainian, I suggest to switch from the 2010 Ukrainian national standard to the
BGN/PCGN 1965 standard, for the following reasons:
1. The BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is generally more correctly pronounced by English speakers, which is its main advantage and should be the most important argument/criterion in choosing a romanization standard for use in English context.
2. The BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is more suitable for use in English and more typical for English as it employs the English spelling system, unlike the 2010 Ukrainian national standard.
3. The BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is more unambiguous and reversible.
4. The BGN/PCGN 1965 standard is consistent (in the transcription of iotated vowels and й) and simple, unlike the 2010 Ukrainian national standard.
5. The BGN/PCGN 1965 Ukrainian romanization standard is harmonized (regarding the transcription of iotated vowels and й) with the current BGN/PCGN romanization standards for Russian and Belarusian, which are used in the English Wikipedia (with some modifications). Ukrainian shares with Russian and Belarusian a lot of personal names, some surnames and other names and words, and their transcription should not differ depending on the origin or country of residence of a name holder.
It is worth noting that the BGN/PCGN 1965 standard is preferred by Britannica and has comparable popularity in English as the 2010 Ukrainian national standard (the BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is more common for Ukrainian personal names, about as common for Ukrainian surnames, yet less common for Ukrainian place names).
For comparison:
Надія, Касьян, Тетяна, Таїса, Макіївка, Мар’їнка, Таврійськ, Андрій, Зеленський
Nadiya, Kasyan, Tetyana, Tayisa, Makiyivka, Maryinka, Tavriysk, Andriy, Zelenskyy (BGN/PCGN 1965 standard)
Nadiia, Kasian, Tetiana, Taisa, Makiivka, Marinka, Tavriisk, Andrii, Zelenskyi (2010 Ukrainian national standard, currently a guideline in the Manual of Style)
VSL ( talk) 15:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
You may be interested in this discussion: User:Blindlynx, User:Olexa Riznyk, User:TaivoLinguist, User:Flavius1, User:AlexKozur, User:Trzb, User:Antanana, User:Lystopad, User:Slovolyub, User:Dunadan Ranger, User:Alesjif, User:M. Humeniuk, User:Oleh Kushch, User:Orbitz stop st ro, User:Leon II, User:Propork3455, User:Franzekafka, User:Dr.KBAHT. VSL ( talk) 14:05, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
The redirect Wikipedia:UKR has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 28 § Wikipedia:UKR until a consensus is reached. JuniperChill ( talk) 12:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Manual of Style | ||||||||||
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Ukraine Project‑class | |||||||
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Has this new proposal been discussed anywhere? What is the reasoning behind the change? — Michael Z. 2006-07-13 03:43 Z
It was not my intention to present this page as an approved policy. WP:CYR is still under discussion and I see this page as a part of WP:CYR.
My inclining toward the National system is driven by the desire to use a system easily recognized by native English speakers. Based on my experience, English speakers are more comfortable with “i” than “y” when facing such letters as “я”, “ю”, “є”. English speakers are also puzzled by a set of consonants, which are common in Cyrillic, like “zhzh”, “shch”, and the simplifications implemented in the simplified National system seems very reasonable to me. I also value the fact that the National system is the official system approved in the Ukraine, following the work of a Committee of professionals. Having in hands the BGN/PCGN system they still found preferable to agree on a slightly different transliteration system for contemporary Ukrainian language.
I recognize the long-standing use of BGN/PCGN in English-language Ukrainian literature. However, I don’t see valid reasons to stick with some custom-made modified BGN/PCGN system. If something has a well established name, regardless of whether it’s BGN/PCGN, or some modification of it, or something else, we agree to use that well established name. But we need a transliteration system for something which is not well established. And for this we should better use a well established system. KPbIC 06:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
For the sake of comparison (feel free to add more words):
Cyrillic | linguistics | BGN/PCGN | BGN/PCGN simplified | National 1996 | simplified National 1996 | National 2010/UNGEGN | Library of Congress (ALA–LC) |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
-ий | -yj | -yy | -y | -yi | -yi | –yi | -yĭ |
-ій | -ij | -iy | -y | -ii | -ii | -ii | -iĭ |
Україна | Ukrajina | Ukrayina | Ukrayina | Ukraina | Ukraina | Ukraina | Ukraïna |
Київ | Kyjiv | Kyyiv | Kyiv | Kyiv | Kyiv | Kyiv | Kyïv |
Запоріжжя | Zaporižžja | Zaporizhzhya | Zaporizhya | Zaporizhzhia | Zaporizhia | Zaporizhzhia | Zaporiz͡hz͡hi͡a |
згода | zhoda | z∙hoda | zhoda | zghoda | zghoda | zghoda | zhoda |
сім’я | sim”ja | sim”ya | simya | sim”ia | simia | simia | simʹi͡a |
сміється | smijet’sja | smiyet’sya | smiyetsya | smiiet’sia | smiietsia | smiietsia | smii͡etʹsi͡a |
ювілей | juvilej | yuviley | yuviley | yuvilei | yuvilei | yuvilei | i͡uvileĭ |
яєшня | jaješnja | yayeshnya | yayeshnya | yaieshnia | yaieshnia | yaieshnia | i͡ai͡eshni͡a |
щабельок | ščabel’ok | shchabel’ok | shchabelok | schabel’ok | schabel’ok | shchabelok | shchabelʹok |
сміття | smittja | smittya | smitya | smittia | smittia | smittia | smitti͡a |
Ending "-iй" is not common; ending "-ий" is much more common (червона/червоний). The later is given as "-yi" is the National system, which is the best way to represent "-ий", as it looks to me. I may prefer "simya" over "simia", but, again, the idea of going according to personal tastes is very wrong. I’m strongly advocating for sticking with a professionally established system.
KPbIC
06:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
The guideline for the transliteration of the letter "щ" as "sch" makes no sense, even in the light of an "attempt to make sense to English-speakers." In literary (official!) Ukrainian, "щ" is pronounced as "shch," NOT as "sch" (which implies the Russian pronounciation of "щ"). Yes, some Ukrainians pronounce it the Russian way, but why reflect dialectal or bad grammar in our spellings of Ukrainian words? Consequently, what is the point of simplifying the information for English-speakers if the information is false? I'm going to revise this policy. Cossack 00:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't trust the Ukrainian government on this one, funny as that may sound. If you look at the Kiev metro map, the "transliteration system" used is utterly random, erratic, and basically "от балды." I'm also fairly certain the vast majority of materials will use "shch," including those on Wikipedia (see Viktor Yushchenko, Slobozhanshchyna). Maybe the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences has better recommendations for the transliterations of geographic names? Cossack 00:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
According to the last official transliteration system Щ is spelt as SHCH [1]-- Serhii Riabovil ( talk) 15:42, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I've changed the page header to make it clear that this is a proposal, and doesn't correspond to current practice, with a link to Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Cyrillic)#Ukrainian. It's already a problem that we have that guideline and Wikipedia:NAME#Ukrainian_names. — Michael Z. 2008-09-27 06:50 z
Per my note at the notice board, I've decided to clean up the transliteration advice to make it non-redundant, consistent with standards, and suitable to be declared a real guideline. I'll consolidate everything here, leaving behind only links or the barest summaries at WP:CYR#Ukrainian, and WP:NAME#Ukrainian names, where only naming regulations belong, and not details of transliteration systems.
I won't diverge from the substance or spirit of current practice or the guidelines in place. But I'm going to totally rewrite the text. Thanks for your patience with my efforts. — Michael Z. 2008-10-22 22:34 z
Now both Ukraine and the UN use the National 2010 system, for all romanization. Place and personal names will mostly appear in news and references according to this system. It is very close to the BGN and National 1996 systems that we have been recommending, so differences in romanization will be few and barely noticeable.
I propose that the official system supercede these two, unifying the romanization for general use and for place names, and simplifying the guideline.
Questions? Comments? Objections? — Michael Z. 2013-05-02 02:15 z
I propose that we add a guideline recommending the Library of Congress (ALA–LC) system be used for transliterating Ukrainian in references, including titles, authors, publishers, etc.
This system is used by practically all English-language libraries, academicians, and publishers in the world (the British Library started using it nearly 40 years ago). When a reader sees a reference in Wikipedia, the name may as well help them find it elsewhere. — Michael Z. 2013-06-21 16:13 z
Is anyone keeping this page updated?
As it stands, I found it extremely difficult to find the standardised transliteration style used for English Wikipedia. Compare this page to the Wikipedia Russian transliteration standard page. I found the Russian one without any difficulties & it's all laid out ready to use as a reference dependent on whether it's basic, linguistic or technical.
I'm still clicking around trying to work out whether to use this or hidden from plain sight somewhere on this page! Having encountered variations of ï as "yi", "ji", "i" alone in various articles and items, I don't see how an English reader will recognise the a word/name in one article as being the same word/name in another. I think we all comprehend that Ukrainian words/names basically go in one eyeball and out the other for Anglo-Celtic speakers already. Compounding polysyllabic words/names with variations on the transliteration defeats the purpose of informing readers. I know I'm confounded.
Is anyone willing to collaborate on sorting this page out in order to emulate the comprehensible Russian entry ( WP:RUS)? Note that I left a similar missive on Romanization of Ukrainian talk page last month and still haven't had a response from anyone. Cheers! -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 01:21, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
There are many people in Ukraine who speak Russian, as we all know. However, it isn't clear whether we should give these people's names in Russian or Ukrainian, or both. This is especially true for article titles. Most pages that I can find provide only the Ukrainian name, even of those who grew up Russian-speaking. I feel like we should specify on this page whether to use Russian or Ukrainian transliteration. RGloucester — ☎ 19:29, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Okay, User:KPbIC proposed using the National system back in 2006 (top of page), and I came around and proposed it again in 2013 ( #Update to the National 2010 system). Since there’s been no objection, and the 2010 version of the National system has been officially used for all purposes for eight years now, I am going to wait another month, then be bold and change the guideline as follows:
Please comment, or not. — Michael Z. 2018-07-31 19:38 z
I went and did it: diff. — Michael Z. 2019-11-19 19:58 z
This:
is official rules? In official version 2. М'який знак і апостроф латиницею не відтворюються. Микола Василечко ( talk) 19:44, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
This advice page has been stable for a long time and is widely used without contestation. Can we agree to promote its status? Are any changes needed for this? (Perhaps it is too detailed in its suggestions for style, &c., and a convention should be pared down to the most minimal romanization method.) — Michael Z. 14:03, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
I propose designating Wikipedia:Romanization of Ukrainian as a WP:guideline and supplement to the WP:Manual of Style, with the shortcut link MOS:UKR. — Michael Z. 03:05, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Ukrainian letter |
English transcription | Context | Examples |
---|---|---|---|
є / ю / я | ie / iu / ia | after consonant letters (palatalizing) | Тетяна → Tetiana |
ye / yu / ya | elsewhere (iotated) | Надія → Nadiya, Майя → Maiya, Касьян → Kasyan, Слов’янськ → Slovyansk | |
ї | yi | Макіївка → Makiyivka, Ананьїв → Ananyiv, Мар’їнка → Maryinka | |
й | y | where it iotates a vowel | Йосип → Yosyp, Олексійовець → Oleksiyovets, Йельський → Yelskyi |
i | elsewhere | найостанніший → naiostannishyi, Юрій → Yurii | |
ь | i | before а, е, и, о, у but not between parts of compound words | Альона → Aliona (but: Севастопольенерго → Sevastopolenerho) |
' (apostrophe) (may be omitted if it won't make the spelling ambiguous, like in Ільїне → Ilyine, which may be read and transcribed back as Ілийне) | before є, ї, ю, я, й (i. e. before iotation) | Ананьїв → Anan'yiv, батальйон → batal'yon | |
(omitted) | elsewhere | Львів → Lviv | |
’ (apostrophe) | ' (apostrophe) (may be omitted if it won't make the spelling ambiguous, like in Солов’ї → Solovyi, which may be read and transcribed back as Соловий) | Руч’ї → Ruch'yi |
Note that the Ukrainian national romanization system is designed and intended for common (international) Latin transcription and better be adjusted for use in English. The proposed changes will make the romanization system more logical, consistent and reversible, and the transcription will be more correctly pronounced.
In general and as a whole, the proposed English transcription, compared to the currently used Ukrainian national romanization system, is about as common for Ukrainian place names [1] [2] (excluding Kyiv and Mykolaiv, which will be exceptions, per WP:COMMONNAME), 2–3 times more common for Ukrainian surnames [3] [4], and 5–6 times more common for Ukrainian personal names [5] [6]. Moreover, the proposed transcription provides more common spelling than any of the accepted standards for romanizing Ukrainian.
1. Transcribe ї always as yi so that it won't be transcribed the same as й and і and wouldn't be read as one of these. Instead, it will be pronounced correctly, and the transcription will be more unambiguous and reversible. Yet this spelling is less common.
Compare: війя, мрії, мрій, герої, герой → viiia, mrii, mrii, heroi, heroi (current) / viiya, mriyi, mrii, heroyi, heroi (proposed).
This spelling is used by Britannica: Mykolayiv, Makiyivka, Izmayil.
2. Transcribe є, ю, я, йо not after consonant letters as ye, yu, ya, yo. This will usually be pronounced correctly, unlike ie, iu, ia, io. This spelling is also more typical for English and much more common.
Compare: Заяць, Майя, Надія, Коломия → Zaiats, Maiia, Nadiia, Kolomyia (current) / Zayats, Maiya, Nadiya, Kolomyya (proposed).
Britannica uses this spelling as well: Slov'yansk, Yenakiyeve, Kolomyya.
VSL ( talk) 12:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia should, in all cases and for whatever writing system, stick with International Standard systems. No exceptions except in the cases where there is a commonly-used English spelling (e.g., Lviv, Kyiv, etc.). -- TaivoLinguist (Taivo) ( talk) 22:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
We have an existing international standard we should use that rather than cook up something new. (i'm saying this as someone who prefers yi, ya whatever in my own work and name), if reversibility is a concern we can always include LOC trans-lit with ligatures and diacritics in the lead— blindlynx 21:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
The first thing - I'm not sure that the Wiki allows a such original scientific work. The second: I don't like any apostrophe in Ukrainian romanization. You do not need a apostrophe in words such as batalyon because the Ukrainian language has assimilation by "softness" in roots and suffixes. Beside it, we have hardening of some consonants, so Ruchyi can't have soft readding. The "Polish" way of writing of iotateds (Aliona) is really good for the Ukrainian. The current romanization system would work perfect if it transliterated any letter Й as Y (ИЇ is a rare combination). And YI in all positions is excessive solution because any after-vowel "I" becomes Ї in the Ukrainian (exceptions only at junction of prefix and root). So, keep root-initial YI and simple I otherwise.-- Юе-Артеміш ( talk) 17:01, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
The section on indicating stress says we can use an acute accent over a vowel in romanized text, e.g. Zaporízhzhia.
This should probably be removed. This usage is common in native Ukrainian dictionaries and readers (e.g., as Запорі́жжя), but as far as I know is not a convention for use in romanized text. Our universal way to indicate stress for any language in Wikipedia is in phonemic or phonetic transcriptions per MOS:IPA and WP:IPA.
Any objections? — Michael Z. 18:39, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Since there are many opinions for following one of the
existing standards for general romanization of Ukrainian, I suggest to switch from the 2010 Ukrainian national standard to the
BGN/PCGN 1965 standard, for the following reasons:
1. The BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is generally more correctly pronounced by English speakers, which is its main advantage and should be the most important argument/criterion in choosing a romanization standard for use in English context.
2. The BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is more suitable for use in English and more typical for English as it employs the English spelling system, unlike the 2010 Ukrainian national standard.
3. The BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is more unambiguous and reversible.
4. The BGN/PCGN 1965 standard is consistent (in the transcription of iotated vowels and й) and simple, unlike the 2010 Ukrainian national standard.
5. The BGN/PCGN 1965 Ukrainian romanization standard is harmonized (regarding the transcription of iotated vowels and й) with the current BGN/PCGN romanization standards for Russian and Belarusian, which are used in the English Wikipedia (with some modifications). Ukrainian shares with Russian and Belarusian a lot of personal names, some surnames and other names and words, and their transcription should not differ depending on the origin or country of residence of a name holder.
It is worth noting that the BGN/PCGN 1965 standard is preferred by Britannica and has comparable popularity in English as the 2010 Ukrainian national standard (the BGN/PCGN 1965 transcription is more common for Ukrainian personal names, about as common for Ukrainian surnames, yet less common for Ukrainian place names).
For comparison:
Надія, Касьян, Тетяна, Таїса, Макіївка, Мар’їнка, Таврійськ, Андрій, Зеленський
Nadiya, Kasyan, Tetyana, Tayisa, Makiyivka, Maryinka, Tavriysk, Andriy, Zelenskyy (BGN/PCGN 1965 standard)
Nadiia, Kasian, Tetiana, Taisa, Makiivka, Marinka, Tavriisk, Andrii, Zelenskyi (2010 Ukrainian national standard, currently a guideline in the Manual of Style)
VSL ( talk) 15:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
You may be interested in this discussion: User:Blindlynx, User:Olexa Riznyk, User:TaivoLinguist, User:Flavius1, User:AlexKozur, User:Trzb, User:Antanana, User:Lystopad, User:Slovolyub, User:Dunadan Ranger, User:Alesjif, User:M. Humeniuk, User:Oleh Kushch, User:Orbitz stop st ro, User:Leon II, User:Propork3455, User:Franzekafka, User:Dr.KBAHT. VSL ( talk) 14:05, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
The redirect Wikipedia:UKR has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 28 § Wikipedia:UKR until a consensus is reached. JuniperChill ( talk) 12:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)