I was requested to comment. My only encounter with User:Tenmei is at Talk:Salting the earth which he filled with bizarre proposals to merge that article with "Asia during the Tang Dynasty" or whatever it is. There is no mention in the article Salting the earth whatsoever of the Tang Dynasty, nor has he made clear any context for merging these two unrelated articles. Because of the lack of context, I took this as disruptive and deleted most of his lengthy additions to the talkpage. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 10:36, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I think there are two somewhat separate problems here. One is that there is some trolling going on by an anonymous IP (the one who created the article in the first place). I think previous statements of this IP are clear enough to rule out WP:AGF, even if some editors in the AfD discussion did think otherwise.
The other problem is that the academic credentials of the source used by User:Teeninvestor are unclear and that Teeninvestor has made no attempt to deal with this. Maybe because both Teeninvestor and Tenmei were a bit too involved in their conflict to clear this isssue up. I am aware this is a problem of a lot of WP articles, but I think it really is the burden of the contributor who introduces a source to give evidence why it is relevant, at least in the case of disputes. I don't really think Teeninvestor is misrepresenting his source, certainly not consciously. But that still leaves open the question who the authors of his source are: amateur historians, local politicians, or maybe experts who studied Central Asia in the 7th century for all their life? It is also unclear what kind of source is used, secondary or tertiary. I don't think asking for clarifications on that matter and treating stuff as unsourced if no clarification is forthcoming is inappropriate. Yaan ( talk) 16:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I will leave my opinion for arbitrators to figure out what is a problem and "who are the involved parties". First, this can be shown as a nationalistic dispute between China and Mongol, or a failure to abide by principle rules such as WP:Edit war, WP:AGF, WP:Civil, WP:NPA, WP:Own, WP:V, etc. But the request may be a due course because nothing was sorted out after tendentious edit warring and disruption were happening since the creation of the article. Tenmei and Teeninvester both violated 3RR (4RR ~ 6RR), but no admin did enforce to them for probably the lengthy, and weird report.
The selection of the involved editors are also odd and totally excludes Mongolian editors and others who actively participated in this dispute such as Gantuya eng ( talk · contribs) [1], GenuineMongol ( talk · contribs) [2], and G Purevdorj ( talk · contribs) [3] (see: AFD). All of three should appear here to give their opinion as the "involved party" for ArbCom to decide whether to pursue to the case. In fact, Kraftlos, PericlesofAthens, and Arilang1234 were not involved at all, but the latter two just came to give "3rd opinion" per Teeninvest's request to turn down the flame for his stance [4] [5]. Though the two are members of WP:WikiProject China and colleagues of Tenninvester. The meditation attempt was failed because of Teeninvester's unwillingness and Tenmei's failure to communicate civilly. So at least, RFC/3O/Mediation were tried except RFC/U before the request.
It should be noted that the creator of the article, Sarsfs ( talk · contribs) and NYC Verizon anons [6] are likely a sock of banned troll, ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) who has caused "big troubles" to East Asian subjects and harassed editors. [7] Given the extreme Pro- Han Chinese agenda [8], abusive sockpuppeter (over 200 socks), and harassment, I don't think he gives up appearing to the article(see: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 6)
As for the contested Chinese books, I can confirm notability of only one book, Outlines of the History of the Chinese ISBN 7538700420 written by Bo Yang who was a very famous Taiwanese author with a radical political view. Translated versions of the book are sold in other countries.( [9] review) However, the problem is lied in the other book "5000 years of Chinese history" (中华五千年) written by Li Bo and Zheng Yin, that is primarily used for Teeninvester's claimed contents. I can't find any review nor information from "reliable news or sites" in any language except advertising sites. The two authors do not seem like notable too according to g-hits/books/scholar/news. I doubt that Nlu would help out because he does not seem to care about nationalistic feuds, and tends to use just Chinese primary sources for his articles.
Plus, everyone point finger at each other's behaviors on the article and AfD (eg. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11) so I recommend Arbitrators to look into both content disputes and behaviors of the involved editors if you take the case. I doubt that this dispute can be resolved in other venues( WP:ANI/ WP:RSN/ WP:WQA) because of the sock's constant trolling, the involved editors' too long-winged and endless arguments, dismissals to the request for verifying sources, ensuing disruptions to other articles and bickering each other as well as edit wars.-- Caspian blue 22:52, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Comment: Several users have been notified of this debate to "help with this dispute": Example and overview Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 11:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I consider that despite there being clear claims that problem editing is occurring, the attempts at dispute resolution have been inadequate. Yes, RfC/U (like all other conduct parts of our DR system) would be a waste of time here. However, the fact that mediation fails does not mean that article RfC has also - and I see no justification to avoid trying this avenue before trying other avenues to get sanctions.
One of the biggest issues with accepting a case prematurely is this: ArbCom will consider things that shouldn't be considered when looking for sanctions at this point. Things aren't done as they should be by editors heavily involved in a dispute for a variety of reasons, and things aren't as they appear (eg; edit-summaries aren't accurate to the t, some things that needn't have been reverted end up reverted, accusations are thrown around, etc. etc. - but these are relatively minor costs that should be given an allowance, if and when there are strong attempts to attack the larger issue of the problem editing).
Unfortunately, this makes it very difficult to know when such attempts are being made, or in distinguishing between the problem editor and the editor who just needs a lot more time to get settled with certain conventions (like editing with a cooler head). Unfortunately, poor decisions can also emerge. Problem editors may do just enough to end up with no to light sanctions, compared to the editor who actually was combatting a much bigger problem to help the more important quality of the project. I would rather not make the decision until there is enough to at least have a better chance of getting to the right overall outcome. Even I am having trouble making some of the more complex distinctions right now.
I am appreciative of the proportion who voted to accept to address problem editing, among other issues. That is certainly what I would want usually. But I agree with Sam's last sentence. And as for the reasons specified as to why this dispute cannot be resolved in other venues (which may usually justify acceptance), true resolution cannot be found by accepting an arbcom case at this point. I do not want to see editors sanctioned or banned when they shouldn't be, and I don't want the opposite of this to happen either. I'm lost as to where this will go when enough distinctions are still unclear.
Letting the dispute continue without intervention would certainly let it fester some more, but it may be the only way here: other avenues need to be exhausted so that, hopefully, a clearer picture can be painted on all those involved. In the interests of ensuring we don't punish or lose really valuable contributors (who wade into waters that some others would stay away from), my view is that the case needs to be declined for now. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 15:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I suppose I could point out a few things. In the JQCQ link to the book, there was no author listed; the names listed were rather translators. I personally have some issue with the description of the book given by the site, however; 爱国主义 means nationalism/patriotism, and the two volumes only cover up to the First Opium War (meaning it does not cover anything post- Qing Dynasty. - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 22:10, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
What is more troubling is that depending on usage, 爱国主义 could also mean jingoism. In addition, while looking at the userpages, User:Teeninvestor is a Chinese, while User:Tenmei is heavily involved in Japanese articles. This could be a point of contention. SYSS Mouse ( talk) 17:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Initiated by Tenmei ( talk) at 00:39, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Issues #1, #2 and #3 do happen to involve a Chinese language text, but the disruptive views which are affirmed below by Teeninvestor are independent of any specific content or language. In the narrow context of the three inter-related issues, the presumed need for a "Chinese-literate" consultant would seem unjustified; and yet, Newyorkbrad and Coren both endorse this notion.
In this diff (16 May), the work invested in ArbCom evidence and workshop pages is shown to have been worthwhile.
In the ArbCom process, Teeninvestor's conception of the issues has been distilled to produce these few sentences:
"I feel cheated because I can't square the adduced principles and findings of fact with explicit core policies. This sense of being tricked is exacerbated by my inability to assess the impact of issues which were not addressed because I didn't know that the locus of dispute had been changed nor did I know that the scope had been enlarged.
"This lingering uncertainty affects every aspect of my Wikipedia participation going foreward; and the difficulty is amplified because I'm deprived of formerly meaningful wiki-catchwords and wiki-terms which might have otherwise helped me to evaluate what happened. I'm forced to guess that the decision-making was affected by other factors which remain unknowable; and that's impossible to parse."
Yes, I too thought I understood the arbitration decision until JohnVandenberg's edit at Talk:Order of Culture suggested I did not. Finding something about which we can agree is a constructive first step in responding to your statement below. That said, I learned something useful at Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Nihonjoe 4 when Nihonjoe wrote: "Please don't attribute something to me which is not correct." You have not been specific, but I adopt his "measured" language as a mild and non-confrontational expression of disagreement with other elements of your statement. -- Tenmei ( talk) 23:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, you are correct in remembering that I initiated the RFArb. Finding something about which we can agree is a constructive first step in responding to your statement below. That said, I learned something useful at Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Nihonjoe 4 when Nihonjoe wrote: "Please don't attribute something to me which is not correct." You have not been specific, but I adopt his "measured" language as a mild and non-confrontational expression of disagreement with other elements of your statement. -- Tenmei ( talk) 23:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I too join you in hoping this case will be resolved satisfactorily. Finding something about which we can agree is a constructive first step in responding to your statement below. You have not been specific, but I adopt his "measured" language as a mild and non-confrontational expression of disagreement with other elements of your statement. -- Tenmei ( talk) 23:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, you correctly identify something I'd forgotten, a single edit of Gyeongju in July. It was just one otherwise unremarkable reverts in a series which is recorded as part of my User contributions list:
Finding something about which we can agree is a constructive first step in responding to your statement below. That said, I learned something useful at Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Nihonjoe 4 when Nihonjoe wrote: "Please don't attribute something to me which is not correct." Where you have not been specific, I adopt his "measured" language as a mild and non-confrontational expression of disagreement with other elements of your statement.
I also learned something at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2009/Vote/AGK when User:Manning Bartlett parsed an issue which is no less relevant in this setting. I adopt his measured words as my own: "There is a degree of (possibly unintentional) misrepresentation in Caspian's comment ....". For example, no source exists to support what is perhaps the most dramatic claim: "According to him, I'm a foolish barking dog" (italics in original below). I did not write nor say nor think anything like that. Moreover, the explicit context created by the Restatement section and by Obama's conciliatory remarks (as linked and reproduced above) is simply inconsistent with this and other strained accusations. Beyond blunt denial, I don't know to rebuff extravagant "frequent smearing naming-calling like "crying wolf" and his frequent mention about Korean ethnicity." Overreaching is often recognized as unpersuasive, even dissuasive. -- Tenmei ( talk) 23:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
The three sentences of the "Six Month Review" are not plausible, not accurate, not credible in do not acknowledge the context of e-mails sent by me to ArbCom beginning in June.
Not 'Wrong+'
The Review summary trivializes and dismisses my attempts to figure out what the ArbCom decision meant, conflating evidence of each attempt to be scrupulous with something like inattention. Blame is a difficult word; but in this six month period, my words or actions were careful measured and blameless -- consistently and explicitly at odds with the familiar structure of victimization which
Caspian blue erects in his statement on this page or elsewhere.
n my view We acknowledge that it is not necessary for ArbCom to be correct nor even fair. I'm prepared to accept that the volunteer members of the Arbitration Committee do whatever seems practical, which means that I don't even anticipate that any specific decision or series of decisions will be the best of all options. However, the thrust of the Review summary and the increased penalties, narrower restrictions and ratcheted-up punishment imply a perception that I have been unwilling, uncooperative, thoughtless, recalcitrant, heedless or any other of a number of adjectives. I was not unwilling. I was not uninquisitive. This "value-added" opprobrium is unearned, undeserved, unmerited and resistant to parsing.
It's one thing to be simply wrong; and This Review summary contrives something like "wrong+" -- wrong plus something more as well.
As early as June I tried to discover what ArbCom wanted me to do or not do. In the following months My serial e-messages asking ArbCom to explain are not consistent with unwillingness nor uncooperative intention. For example I wrote to
FloNight in June with copies to the ArbCom list; and I construed
Kirill Lokshin response as encouraging me to wait patiently for further feedback.
Carcharoth's response to another request for explanation was explicit in urging patience. Now I am punished for what could have been avoided if only I had asked different questions or understood more about what was expected There is a difference -- a crucial distinction -- between my being merely wrong and "extra-wrong" in terms of the unstated justifications for increased punative burdens, restrictions or penalties which are now imposed. A crucial blurring in the Review summary is married with onerous consequences. This is a bad marriage.
First part of Arbitrators' summary below.
¶1(a). Copy of e-message, Tenmei to ArbCom-List (17 Sept)
Subject: What, if anything, am I supposed to do or not do?
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Second part of Arbitrators' summary below.
¶2-3(a). Copy of e-message, John Vandenberg to Tenmei (17 Nov).
Subject: Is this suitable?
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¶2-3(b). Copy of e-message, Tenmei to John Vandenberg (17 Nov).
Subject: Converting proposed "mentor" into an untrustworthy opponent, which becomes unworkable
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¶2-3(c). Copy of e-message, John Vandenberg to Tenmei (18 Nov).
Subject: Not responded to your emails because it is not our job to be your mentor
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You can not ask for relief while you are violating the ArbCom decision.
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Too long/didn't read
Nothing in this case was a simple matter. This short analysis could not be more concise. I regret the point-of-view of those inclined to reject, dismiss or ignore whatever I write. This is explained, they say, by the rubric of
WP:TLDR. I can only hope that this negative reading is not unilikely to be balanced by others who do read and do try to understand what I have try to explain. In this comment What can be said to those who reject a priori?
Words do matter. Actions do matter. In this case, non-responsive silence and prolonged inaction matter, too.
Consequences are never unimportant.
No harmful consequence flow from identifying the axiomatic presumptions which underly the summary which has now been endorsed by a number of ArbCom members. Rather, I am shouldering reasonable responsibilities in this situation by trying to clarify the context. My explicit and repeated efforts to contribute constructively are demonstrable and not insignificant. I have done what I could to avoid the problems I confront today; and I need to state exactly that.
It is simply wrong to impose added adverse burdens on me as a consequence of failures which were not within my ability to affect. -- Tenmei ( talk) 03:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Your unique usage is not mirrored in the texts of Mentor or Mentorship or WP:Mentorship.
I don't dispute your personal decision to re-define a term, nor do I dispute ArbCom's collective re-defining of terms. However, when you and/or ArbCom does something like this, it cannot be presented as axiomatic. To the extent that your clarifying language is accepted and adopted by your ArbCom colleagues, this becomes something other than what you see is what you get. The Knife-edge effect of this re-definition needs further investigation. This re-definition was not made explicit, thus constriving a bait and switch scenario. My objections now are timely. -- Tenmei ( talk) 19:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Your unique usage is not mirrored in the texts of Mentor or Mentorship or WP:Mentorship.
I don't dispute your personal decision to re-define a term, nor do I dispute ArbCom's collective re-defining of terms. However, when you and/or ArbCom does something like this, it cannot be presented as axiomatic. To the extent that your clarifying language is accepted and adopted by your ArbCom colleagues, this becomes something other than what you see is what you get. Using your own idiomatic words, this is not an instance in which the undefined wiki-term does exactly what it says on the tin. The Knife-edge effect of this re-definition needs further investigation. This re-definition was not made explicit, thus creating a bait and switch scenario. My unanswered questions now are timely. -- Tenmei ( talk) 19:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
"It is altogether too easy to let the burden of the immediate problem obliterate other considerations from your thinking and to jump at what promises to be a quick fix. What often happens is that you have not achieved a long-range success but only converted one difficulty into another perhaps less obvious but no less onerous one."
Still WP:TLDR mixed in with a hefty dose of obfuscation. Doesn't seem to have taken much out of previous arbitration in this regard, which I guess makes sense since he says he couldn't understand it. I don't know anything about the case above and beyond what's written on the RfA page, but the results of arbitration made perfect sense to me, and they seemed more than fair. Bueller 007 ( talk) 01:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
This seems to be nothing more than an attempt to reject the entire arbitration outcome on the grounds that Tenmei was unable to dictate how it was conducted and didn't like the outcome (from memory, he initiated the RFArb). Nick-D ( talk) 03:49, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Tenmei's latest endeveaur is nothing but an example of the need for the case's provisions. Tenmei continues to display the disruptive characteristics that he had in the last dispute(WP:TLDR, unwillingness to work with others, inability to understand policy, etc..). In fact, he is currently engaged in a dispute with User:Historiographer. I support ArbCom's latest provisions, including a prohibition on Tenmei editing without a mentor. I am currently not able to participate fully in the case due to school, SAT and other purposes, but I hope this case will be resolved satisfactorily. I believe that this latest disruption by Tenmei has affirmed my earlier view for the need for a mentor immediately as well as punitive blocks. As Tenmei has rejected the first, it may be necessary to use the second to prevent any more disruption. Teeninvestor ( talk) 18:12, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
As far as I've known, Tenmei is the only person who has freely edited Wikipedia so far without any punishment regardless of his constant refusal to accept the final remedies imposed to him and to abide by WP:NPA and WP:HARASSMENT. His case is quit strikingly in contrast with the cases of Mythdon ( talk · contribs) (and Scuro ( talk · contribs), whose cases were submitted and wrapped in similar times. They all refused to accept mentorship and went on with the same problematic behaviors, so their remedies are intensified. This contrast does not mean that Tenmei has been editing Wikipedia without breaking his sanction, but my skin gets much thicker after Tenmei's long-term harassment of me, and I have not reported Tenmei for his numerous violations to WP:AE in order to block him. I think I really tried to give him another second chance (foolishly) and cooperate with him since his name has been popping up a lot to "newly created Korean-related article board". After the ArbCom case was close, his interests are weirdly moved to Korean related topics, not necessarily about Korea-Japan topics. FloNight recommended me and Teeninvestor to let "others edit the conflicted articles", but such others are almost "none" even though the topics are very notable. I'd been avoiding Tenmei for 3 months after the case was closed although I knew he several times bashed about me [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] when Taemyr ( talk · contribs), informal mentor of Tenmei, criticized Tenmei's behaviors (his abusive tagging of templates, disregards to Korean naming convention, attacks about me). The frequency of Tenmei's editing Korean-related topics are rather hugely increased after the case. His interests were switched from Mongolian-Chinese relations to ancient Korean-Chinese or Korean-Japanese relations. At that times, I was busy for WP:FAR on Gyeongju (Tenmei appeared to edit the article unsurprisingly) and WP:GA on Korean cuisine, so his provocation could be ignored. However, not for other editors.
By editing articles that naturally tend to invite "conflicts" between two different nationals, Tenmei is repeating his old bad habit by just moving onto other editors in dispute such as Historiographer ( talk · contribs). The latter asked me twice to participate in discussion because he felt handling Tenmei's POV pushing and inserting of original research are beyond his capacity. The ArbCom case only covers the article of Tang Dynasty in Inner Asia, so his mentorship and his probation; prohibiting commenting about me anywhere within Wikipedia - could be only things on which I can depend without fear of Tenmei's persistent harassment. However, well...regardless of my reminder that he should not comment about me and focus on topic in discuss, he still does not get it. According to him, I'm a "foolish barking dog" because I pointed out his breach of WP:ARBCOM ban and WP:Personal attacks and WP:Bad faith. That is another unforgettable slur after his favorite naming calling of me "crying wolf" and "toxic warrior" got old fashion. Calling someone dog is perceived to Koreans as a great slur and even often as a racial slur", and I have lost my good faith that he would not know of this given his frequent smearing naming-calling like "crying wolf" and his frequent mention about Korean ethnicity. He so kindly linked the idiom article that he created; that is just typical because he's created perhaps 4 or 5 articles on English idioms just to mock his opponents and quoted them and urged me to "read and learn about them". I've been working with various editors, and he is also the only one who has not been punished at all for his such vicious behaviors (all are either banned, blocked multiply, or topic-banned indefinitely) However, reporting him to WP:ANI is a great time sink and a loss of my health without any action to him because of his WP:TL;DR and inability of communication, so I rather tried to make him acknowledge that he needs mentors to cooperate articles.
However, if I want to fix articles in wrong Romanization per WP:NC-KO, a grand saga would always wait for me. I've explained many times to make Tenmei to understand the naming convention, but he would not listen. Tenmei canvassed about a to-do-list on his opponent's user page to over 10 talk pages. I removed one such offensive message from the talk page, I become engaged in a tag-team according to his attacks. So what should be done with the amendment? Get him a mentor or do the same remedies enforced to Mythdon and Scuro. For the past 6 months, he has refused to move on but repeated the same old habit. I do not want to waste another 6 months over this. In addition, Tenmei still wrongly accuses her Teeninvestor of using "hollow sources"; Teeninvestor has obtained a GA with the book reference.-- Caspian blue 19:35, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Any time that foreign-language text/sources are involved, it should not hurt to have someone fluent in the language to overlook things. (Granted, I have my own views regarding PRC and ROC and their political status, but that's another issue - ask me about it at some point and I probably can assure that you'd get more confused at the end.) If I didn't say it before, I say now that I'm willing to assist regarding foreign language text/sources when I'm provided the references to look at. I've personally translated a few things in the original case; however, I did not manage to gain access to any of the actual text (of the book) itself (which I've stated in the original case, too.) I'm willing to assist - not as a mentor (I've been too inactive to do that) - when translation is required I believe I can be of some help.
But in this case I don't want to take a nosedive without knowing what I'm getting myself into. After all, this is the area where I may be perceived as having a bias - treading carefully is best. - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 02:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Added 04:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC): Make it so that mentors who resign must inform ArbCom and have major mentor activities (resigning, assignment, mentor on wiki-break and needs someone else to step in, etc.) logged on the case page would clear up the status, no? Wouldn't that be a better idea than have the mentor just be publicly identifiable? - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 04:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
{Statement by editor filing request for amendment. Contained herein should be an explanation and evidence detailing why the amendment is necessary.}
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
Since the close of the Tang Dynasty case, Tenmei has continued to edit without a mentor, frequently editing in topical areas where conflicts have occurred in the past, and on occasion has violated the editing restrictions.
The Arbitration Committee's attempts to arrange mentors has proved difficult in this case, especially with Tenmei rejecting a suitable mentor found by the Arbitration Committee recently.
In lieu of a mentor, Tenmei has sought advice from the Arbitration Committee about the decision, editorial disputes and project guidelines and policies. The committee is not able to fulfill the role of a mentor, and regretfully moves to shift the responsibility of obtaining a mentor onto Tenmei.
Tenmei ( talk · contribs) is required to have one or more volunteer mentors, who will be asked to assist him in understanding and following policy and community practice to a sufficient level that additional sanctions will not be necessary.
While Tenmei is without a mentor, Tenmei is prohibited from contributing except for the purpose of communicating with potential mentors. During this period, Tenmei is instructed to avoid talking about other editors.
The mentor must be publicly identified, and willing to make themselves available for other editors to contact them publicly or privately.
Editors who come into conflict with Tenmei are advised to contact the mentor(s) either publicly or via email.
The restrictions in remedy 1.1 are reset, to commence once the mentor arrangement is approved by the Arbitration Committee.
Should Tenmei violate the requirement to have a mentor before contributing, or should Tenmei cause unrest while contacting potential mentors, the user may be briefly blocked for up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one year. All blocks are to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tang Dynasty#Log of blocks and bans.
Ten arbitrators active on these Tang Dynasty case amendment motions, hence a majority of 6. All the motions are currently passing, though the enforcement motion only passes due to abstentions. Three arbitrators left to vote here. Will notify a clerk to prepare a fuller version of these notes, in preparation for closing this, either after the remaining arbitrators vote, or within 24-48 hours. Carcharoth ( talk) 11:58, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Initiated by Tenmei ( talk) at 20:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
ArbCom's
Strategic default?
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ArbCom's
Strategic default?
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In case these words are otherwise overlooked, I echo what Doc James writes here by asking what more is wanted?
Continued delay does not ameliorate any of the problems which ArbCom tacitly agreed to help resolve.
Continued inaction does not mitigate the consequences of the Gordian Knot which this forum wrongly fostered.
The arc of this case serves only to illustrate the relevance of Gresham's law in our Wikipedia community. -- Tenmei ( talk) 16:16, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
The original ArbCom participants in Tang Dynasty affirmed this principle:
Nick-D reminded ArbCom here that I was the one who inititiated this case. In compliance with what I understood to be ArbCom's instructions, I initiated this thread. These actions demonstrate my express purpose -- addressing perceived communication problems by seeking assistance. This deserves due respect.
However, ArbCom's failures of communication impede both collaboration and resolution. We confront serious problems. Thus far, ArbCom itself has not conformed with this adduced principle. Working together, we can move beyond the serial failures of the past year.-- Tenmei ( talk) 18:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
ArbCom's
Strategic default?
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What distinguishes this thread from " Strategic default"? If this is not " Strategic default", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
ArbCom's
Strategic default?
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What distinguishes this thread from " Strategic default"? If this is not " Strategic default", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
ArbCom's
Strategic default?
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How this will work has been made explicit -- expressly provided for by ArbCom or created in order to facilitate the implied Tang Dynasty objectives. I cast a wide net as part of an outside-the-box search for a cohort of co-mentors. My best interests are fulfilled only if their investments of time and thought are made easy and effective.
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What distinguishes this thread from " Strategic default"? If this is not " Strategic default", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Moving the goalposts
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What respects volunteers? This confirmation process can be moved forward by repeating a fundamental axiom: "My best interests are fulfilled only if these volunteers' investments of time and thought are made easy and effective." Risker's questions are not easy; and whatever time volunteers might invest in answering would likely produce little more than ineffective guesswork. In part, mentorship was proposed by ArbCom as a remedy because, "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". In contrast, the wide-ranging search for volunteers ensured that a broad range of tools are available. In part, the group-structure was necessitated by the problems which flow from the ArbCom neologism; and this explains why my Mentorship Committee is comprised of (a) "mentors", as described at Wikipedia:Mentorship#Involuntary mentorship; and (b) "mentors", as conventionally understood and described at Mentorship. No one has volunteered to investigate the conceptual flaws in ArbCom's terminology nor in devising flexible mentoring group structures; rather, each has expressed a willingness to invest a limited amount of time in helping me improve how I participate in our encyclopedia-building project. I construe my responsibilities to "keep my eye on the ball" -- which means paying attention to a changing focal point which encompasses each person’s expectation of what the other expects him to expect to be expected to do. What is the main thing? At User talk:FloNight#Tenmei's mentor, the main objective was clarified: "... a mentor is like a coach mostly." In this explicit context, words from the userpage of Kraftlos offer a succinct response to Risker's three questions and any corollaries:
In June 2009, FloNight restated ArbCom's objectives:
Now is the time to let these volunteer mentors get to work. Reinventing the wheel. As FloNight explained in June 2009, "... if mentors see a new problem they can make it clear to him that they will tell us so that we can promptly handle it. This approach usually works best." As succinctly expressed by SMcCandlish here, " ...this is an encyclopedia-bulding project, not an experiment in virtual governance ...."
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What distinguishes this thread from " moving the goalposts"? If this is not " moving the goalposts", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Raising the bar
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The responses to Steve Smith + Coren + Roger Davies + Risker are comprehensive and clear. Carcharoth's words are like raising the bar, which here takes the form of " feature creep" as objectives are redefined. According to the Wikipedia article about the phrase " moving the goalpost":
At best, Carcharoth's reasoning illustrates a perfect solution fallacy which is inapposite in this unique case. In a context ArbCom has created, it is seemly to adopt the words of DGG as my own.
Carcharoth's diff discourages me. This is truly harmful when it is perceived as discouraging by others. -- Tenmei ( talk) 18:56, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
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What distinguishes this thread from " raising the bar"? If this is not " raising the bar", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Extending a finish line
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What distinguishes this thread from " extending a finish line"? If this is not " extending a finish line", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Changing the terms
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The concerns and reservations raised in this thread are addressed in different ways by each of the mentors. For today, your questions become a kind of red herring except for this:
Each member of the Arbitration Committee should to construe Robofish's words as a justifiable criticism of logical errors in ArbCom-approved mentorship schema. I was able to pursuaede Robofish to step forward; and this modest achievement was undermined. ArbCom snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by effectively persuading Robofish to withdraw.
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What distinguishes this thread from " Changing the terms"? If this is not " Changing the terms", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Your comment here in Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 is relevant in this Tang Dynasty thread: You explained that "[i]n general I dislike giving good-faith requests the runaround."
As it turned out, this Kafkaesque Tang Dynasty ordeal has been naught but a runaround.
As you know, Tang Dynasty began over a year ago when I proposed a very narrowly-defined case. As an appropriate context for this thread, that long-ago beginng remains modest, timely and relevant.
Let me refresh your memory of what I presented as context for narrow questions about how to deflect straw man arguments by re-asserting core policies and the importance of academic credibility in our Wikipedia project. I explained here:
This ArbCom process has produced many questions, but these are the ones with which I began. What ensued was unhelpful. You may recall that you summarized this Gordian Knot as a "welter of words" here.
Any assertion or response I tried to present was overwhelmed. What evolved in the past year has taken on a life of its own. Whether viewed from the starting point over a year ago, or construed in the terms of this one thread, this has been a runaround.
Why?
What distinguishes this thread from a " runaround" If this is not a " runaround", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Shell Kinney -- Your comment here in Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 is relevant in this Tang Dynasty thread: You explained that "You're back on the right path - give it some time before immersing yourself in a difficult environment again."
In this Tang Dynasty case, please let me refresh your memory of what I presented as context for narrow questions about how to deflect straw man arguments by re-asserting core policies and the importance of academic credibility in our Wikipedia project. I explained here:
Whether viewed from the starting point over a year ago, or construed in the terms of this one thread, I have undoubtedly satisfied whatever anyone might mean by "'give it some time' before immersing yourself in a difficult environment again." Arguably, the effort to locate mentors and their comments in this thread was progress along "the right path" and yet, there is no joy in Mudville.
Why?
What distinguishes this thread from "the right path?" If this is not a "the right path", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
As requested by Tenmei I will provide some oversight over his editing. I hope that this will allow everyone to get back to what we are here for, writing an encyclopedia. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 22:36, 18 February 2010 (UTC) (jmh649)
I as well have volunteered to provide some oversight. Arbcom said that he is topic banned, does that mean he can contribute to those areas while under oversight, or does it simply mean he needs to be observed in all his edits? -- Kraftlos ( Talk | Contrib) 04:16, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm willing to help Tenmei learn to be concise when posting comments. Based on my observations, he has a tendency to be excessively wordy in his posts, which in turn lends itself to people having a tl;dr reaction to his posts. As long as there are several people on this "mentorship committee", I'm willing to help out. I have a lot of other things I do here, and I'd like this to have only a small impact on that. I think Tenmei can learn and improve (and he has in many ways), so hopefully this mentorship will be deemed unnecessary at some future point. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm continuing to provide Tenmei with advice by email as I had offered here. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 17:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Despite some prior discussion with Tenmei about being a mentor, I chose not to be in this group because i thought the process more complicated than necessary, and there were already quite enough other people. But I can't see any objections if Tenmai wants to try it, since there are willing mentors of high editing quality and proven responsibility. DGG ( talk ) 20:04, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
I am willing to assisst Tenmei in oversighting his edits. Leujohn ( talk, stalk me?) 13:53, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I was told by Amory that Risker had posed some questions here and that I was supposed to come answer them. I'm assuming these are the questions:
It has been said that Wikipedia too easily devolves into a MMORPG. These arbitration actions seem to cross the line more easily than other Wikipedia activities. Risker's questions imply that the mentorship group needs fixed rules for interactions with marauding barbarians and some kind of definite written constitution in order to guide our actions so that our swords are not cutting one another rather than the orcs around us. Nihonjoe is right on the money. We'll work like reasonably intelligent adult human beings and resolve the differences in the true Wikipedia manner--by working toward consensus. (As a note, I don't know where Risker's questions are--he didn't bother to put them in a separate subsection here so that I don't waste my time trying to hack through the jungle. I just used Nihonjoe's summary of them above.)
Here is my take on the situation so far.
When I was first approached by Tenmei to be a volunteer mentor, I made it clear what I thought his problem with communication was. I severely critiqued several of his posts, but while he made them shorter, he still continued to wander off into meaningless metaphor, cut an excessively fine point to the details of his comments, and invent meaningless techno-babble to describe the Arbitration process and his frustrations with aspects of it. Unfortunately, I think it is the style of writing and communication which he learned as a young man and it is so ingrained in him that he is unable to recognize it, let alone change it. It means that his ability to communicate effectively in a discussion and content disagreement on Wikipedia, where the majority of editors do not share the ground from which he draws his metaphors, is severely limited. The techno-babble he invents and insists on using, despite my efforts to tell him to stop using it, means that he actually clouds the issue he is discussing more than he enlightens it. The longer he writes using unknown metaphors and invented techno-babble, the more meaningless his comments become. I hate to be so harsh, but after reading his first email, I stopped reading past the first two sentences of subsequent emails. He fails to understand that other Wikipedia editors will do exactly the same thing in any content dispute. While his expertise would be a great contribution to Wikipedia, he is unable to communicate it to the typical Wikipedia editor. Imagine going into battle with two weapons. One weapon will kill one enemy at a time, but has a single button that says, "Push to fire". The other weapon will kill all enemies at once, but has a 1,000-page instruction manual that details the history of the weapon's development, the academic qualifications of its makers, the theory behind its operation, and the instruction "Push the red button to fire" buried on page 739 in the middle of the page. Unfortunately, Tenmei wrote the latter instruction and I'm not certain that the writer who produced the 1,000-page instruction manual is capable of creating a sticker on the side of the weapon that says "Push to fire". To him, it's just not elegant or subtle or finely-honed enough; it carries none of the warnings or history or comparisons to classical warfare that decorate the verbiage of the manual. ( Taivo ( talk) 22:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC))
I'll keep this brief. When I agreed to be a mentor, I assumed it would be a fairly simple task, a matter of overseeing Tenmei's edits, giving him occasional advice, and helping him to resolve disputes (or, ideally, avoid getting into them in the first place). It looks now that it would be something more complex and formal, involving discussing things with the other mentors and agreeing with them before deciding whether any particular action can receive our approval. Basically, it sounds like it's getting too bureaucratic to me, and as I don't have as much time to spend on Wikipedia as I used to anyway, I think I have to drop out. Sorry Tenmei - I hope you're able to work something out here and reach a universally acceptable solution that will allow you to return to editing, but I don't think I'm able to be part of it. Robofish ( talk) 00:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Per request, I've taken the time to review the posed questions and provide my answers, as well as my general understanding of the situation. First of all, I believe that Tenmei has the basics of becoming a good Wikipedia editor. However, one skill in which Tenmei needs assistance is in collaboration with others. Bombarding users with philosophical metaphors is not very helpful. I'm eager to assist because what I see in Tenmei is something I see in myself ... that is, I find myself in real life trying to provide all the possible information I can, instead of just what the requester asked for. I think, in time, we'll both learn something during this process, and that appeals to me.
Now, as to the questions posed by Risker:
(a) how you will address differences amongst yourselves (a situation we have encountered in other mentoring situations)?
(b) what range of actions you are willing to undertake as individuals and as a group?
(c) how the "group" will work when Tenmei is also receiving private advice from individuals not specifically included in the group of mentors.
I think that the goal here is a sound one ... provide Tenmei with guidance as to how to better collaborate with other editors on the project, and I'm prepared to assist in any way I can.
-- McDoobAU93 ( talk) 00:01, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I have to agree with the others who have commented here. This is simply us checking in on Tenmei and trying to keep him going in a positive direction. I know you guys were expecting some sort of formal process here, but to me that seems counterproductive. I imagine any of us can comment on his editing habits, and if needed we can ask the other mentors for opinions. This isn't rocket science. I think Tenmei's editing has been held up for too long, the only way he is going to learn is through practice. So what is this:
How does that sound? -- Kraftlos ( Talk | Contrib) 04:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Note that John Carter ( contribs) has not edited since December 24. I don't think there's any point in waiting for a reply from him at this point in time before proceeding. The others have all replied. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 16:51, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
I apologize for not paying attention tot his discussion lately. I was off wiki the last week or so.
Please remember that I am not the only mentor, so I am only speaking for myself. Leujohn ( talk, stalk me?) 10:27, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I think the recommendations above are reasonable. Details can be determined if events occur. I think it is time to get Tenmei back to editing the main space. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 10:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Tenmei ( talk · contribs) may edit Wikipedia under the guidance of his self-declared mentors ( Nihonjoe ( talk · contribs), Kraftlos ( talk · contribs), Coppertwig ( talk · contribs), Leujohn ( talk · contribs), Jmh649 ( talk · contribs), McDoobAU93 ( talk · contribs)). The period of mentorship will last six months from the date on which this motion passes, although it may be extended with the agreement of Tenmei and one or more mentors. Tenmei is strongly encouraged to seek advice and guidance from his mentors regularly. Should they deem it necessary, Tenmei's mentors may return to the Arbitration Committee for clarification of any editing restrictions or questions with respect to the terms of mentorship. Editors who come into conflict with Tenmei are advised to contact the mentor(s) either publicly or via email.
Tenmei is reminded of the remedies from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tang Dynasty that apply to him. Specifically:
There being 16 arbitrators, 6 of whom are inactive, the majority is 6.
I was requested to comment. My only encounter with User:Tenmei is at Talk:Salting the earth which he filled with bizarre proposals to merge that article with "Asia during the Tang Dynasty" or whatever it is. There is no mention in the article Salting the earth whatsoever of the Tang Dynasty, nor has he made clear any context for merging these two unrelated articles. Because of the lack of context, I took this as disruptive and deleted most of his lengthy additions to the talkpage. Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 10:36, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I think there are two somewhat separate problems here. One is that there is some trolling going on by an anonymous IP (the one who created the article in the first place). I think previous statements of this IP are clear enough to rule out WP:AGF, even if some editors in the AfD discussion did think otherwise.
The other problem is that the academic credentials of the source used by User:Teeninvestor are unclear and that Teeninvestor has made no attempt to deal with this. Maybe because both Teeninvestor and Tenmei were a bit too involved in their conflict to clear this isssue up. I am aware this is a problem of a lot of WP articles, but I think it really is the burden of the contributor who introduces a source to give evidence why it is relevant, at least in the case of disputes. I don't really think Teeninvestor is misrepresenting his source, certainly not consciously. But that still leaves open the question who the authors of his source are: amateur historians, local politicians, or maybe experts who studied Central Asia in the 7th century for all their life? It is also unclear what kind of source is used, secondary or tertiary. I don't think asking for clarifications on that matter and treating stuff as unsourced if no clarification is forthcoming is inappropriate. Yaan ( talk) 16:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I will leave my opinion for arbitrators to figure out what is a problem and "who are the involved parties". First, this can be shown as a nationalistic dispute between China and Mongol, or a failure to abide by principle rules such as WP:Edit war, WP:AGF, WP:Civil, WP:NPA, WP:Own, WP:V, etc. But the request may be a due course because nothing was sorted out after tendentious edit warring and disruption were happening since the creation of the article. Tenmei and Teeninvester both violated 3RR (4RR ~ 6RR), but no admin did enforce to them for probably the lengthy, and weird report.
The selection of the involved editors are also odd and totally excludes Mongolian editors and others who actively participated in this dispute such as Gantuya eng ( talk · contribs) [1], GenuineMongol ( talk · contribs) [2], and G Purevdorj ( talk · contribs) [3] (see: AFD). All of three should appear here to give their opinion as the "involved party" for ArbCom to decide whether to pursue to the case. In fact, Kraftlos, PericlesofAthens, and Arilang1234 were not involved at all, but the latter two just came to give "3rd opinion" per Teeninvest's request to turn down the flame for his stance [4] [5]. Though the two are members of WP:WikiProject China and colleagues of Tenninvester. The meditation attempt was failed because of Teeninvester's unwillingness and Tenmei's failure to communicate civilly. So at least, RFC/3O/Mediation were tried except RFC/U before the request.
It should be noted that the creator of the article, Sarsfs ( talk · contribs) and NYC Verizon anons [6] are likely a sock of banned troll, ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) who has caused "big troubles" to East Asian subjects and harassed editors. [7] Given the extreme Pro- Han Chinese agenda [8], abusive sockpuppeter (over 200 socks), and harassment, I don't think he gives up appearing to the article(see: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 6)
As for the contested Chinese books, I can confirm notability of only one book, Outlines of the History of the Chinese ISBN 7538700420 written by Bo Yang who was a very famous Taiwanese author with a radical political view. Translated versions of the book are sold in other countries.( [9] review) However, the problem is lied in the other book "5000 years of Chinese history" (中华五千年) written by Li Bo and Zheng Yin, that is primarily used for Teeninvester's claimed contents. I can't find any review nor information from "reliable news or sites" in any language except advertising sites. The two authors do not seem like notable too according to g-hits/books/scholar/news. I doubt that Nlu would help out because he does not seem to care about nationalistic feuds, and tends to use just Chinese primary sources for his articles.
Plus, everyone point finger at each other's behaviors on the article and AfD (eg. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11) so I recommend Arbitrators to look into both content disputes and behaviors of the involved editors if you take the case. I doubt that this dispute can be resolved in other venues( WP:ANI/ WP:RSN/ WP:WQA) because of the sock's constant trolling, the involved editors' too long-winged and endless arguments, dismissals to the request for verifying sources, ensuing disruptions to other articles and bickering each other as well as edit wars.-- Caspian blue 22:52, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Comment: Several users have been notified of this debate to "help with this dispute": Example and overview Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 11:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I consider that despite there being clear claims that problem editing is occurring, the attempts at dispute resolution have been inadequate. Yes, RfC/U (like all other conduct parts of our DR system) would be a waste of time here. However, the fact that mediation fails does not mean that article RfC has also - and I see no justification to avoid trying this avenue before trying other avenues to get sanctions.
One of the biggest issues with accepting a case prematurely is this: ArbCom will consider things that shouldn't be considered when looking for sanctions at this point. Things aren't done as they should be by editors heavily involved in a dispute for a variety of reasons, and things aren't as they appear (eg; edit-summaries aren't accurate to the t, some things that needn't have been reverted end up reverted, accusations are thrown around, etc. etc. - but these are relatively minor costs that should be given an allowance, if and when there are strong attempts to attack the larger issue of the problem editing).
Unfortunately, this makes it very difficult to know when such attempts are being made, or in distinguishing between the problem editor and the editor who just needs a lot more time to get settled with certain conventions (like editing with a cooler head). Unfortunately, poor decisions can also emerge. Problem editors may do just enough to end up with no to light sanctions, compared to the editor who actually was combatting a much bigger problem to help the more important quality of the project. I would rather not make the decision until there is enough to at least have a better chance of getting to the right overall outcome. Even I am having trouble making some of the more complex distinctions right now.
I am appreciative of the proportion who voted to accept to address problem editing, among other issues. That is certainly what I would want usually. But I agree with Sam's last sentence. And as for the reasons specified as to why this dispute cannot be resolved in other venues (which may usually justify acceptance), true resolution cannot be found by accepting an arbcom case at this point. I do not want to see editors sanctioned or banned when they shouldn't be, and I don't want the opposite of this to happen either. I'm lost as to where this will go when enough distinctions are still unclear.
Letting the dispute continue without intervention would certainly let it fester some more, but it may be the only way here: other avenues need to be exhausted so that, hopefully, a clearer picture can be painted on all those involved. In the interests of ensuring we don't punish or lose really valuable contributors (who wade into waters that some others would stay away from), my view is that the case needs to be declined for now. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 15:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I suppose I could point out a few things. In the JQCQ link to the book, there was no author listed; the names listed were rather translators. I personally have some issue with the description of the book given by the site, however; 爱国主义 means nationalism/patriotism, and the two volumes only cover up to the First Opium War (meaning it does not cover anything post- Qing Dynasty. - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 22:10, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
What is more troubling is that depending on usage, 爱国主义 could also mean jingoism. In addition, while looking at the userpages, User:Teeninvestor is a Chinese, while User:Tenmei is heavily involved in Japanese articles. This could be a point of contention. SYSS Mouse ( talk) 17:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Initiated by Tenmei ( talk) at 00:39, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Issues #1, #2 and #3 do happen to involve a Chinese language text, but the disruptive views which are affirmed below by Teeninvestor are independent of any specific content or language. In the narrow context of the three inter-related issues, the presumed need for a "Chinese-literate" consultant would seem unjustified; and yet, Newyorkbrad and Coren both endorse this notion.
In this diff (16 May), the work invested in ArbCom evidence and workshop pages is shown to have been worthwhile.
In the ArbCom process, Teeninvestor's conception of the issues has been distilled to produce these few sentences:
"I feel cheated because I can't square the adduced principles and findings of fact with explicit core policies. This sense of being tricked is exacerbated by my inability to assess the impact of issues which were not addressed because I didn't know that the locus of dispute had been changed nor did I know that the scope had been enlarged.
"This lingering uncertainty affects every aspect of my Wikipedia participation going foreward; and the difficulty is amplified because I'm deprived of formerly meaningful wiki-catchwords and wiki-terms which might have otherwise helped me to evaluate what happened. I'm forced to guess that the decision-making was affected by other factors which remain unknowable; and that's impossible to parse."
Yes, I too thought I understood the arbitration decision until JohnVandenberg's edit at Talk:Order of Culture suggested I did not. Finding something about which we can agree is a constructive first step in responding to your statement below. That said, I learned something useful at Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Nihonjoe 4 when Nihonjoe wrote: "Please don't attribute something to me which is not correct." You have not been specific, but I adopt his "measured" language as a mild and non-confrontational expression of disagreement with other elements of your statement. -- Tenmei ( talk) 23:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, you are correct in remembering that I initiated the RFArb. Finding something about which we can agree is a constructive first step in responding to your statement below. That said, I learned something useful at Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Nihonjoe 4 when Nihonjoe wrote: "Please don't attribute something to me which is not correct." You have not been specific, but I adopt his "measured" language as a mild and non-confrontational expression of disagreement with other elements of your statement. -- Tenmei ( talk) 23:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I too join you in hoping this case will be resolved satisfactorily. Finding something about which we can agree is a constructive first step in responding to your statement below. You have not been specific, but I adopt his "measured" language as a mild and non-confrontational expression of disagreement with other elements of your statement. -- Tenmei ( talk) 23:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, you correctly identify something I'd forgotten, a single edit of Gyeongju in July. It was just one otherwise unremarkable reverts in a series which is recorded as part of my User contributions list:
Finding something about which we can agree is a constructive first step in responding to your statement below. That said, I learned something useful at Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Nihonjoe 4 when Nihonjoe wrote: "Please don't attribute something to me which is not correct." Where you have not been specific, I adopt his "measured" language as a mild and non-confrontational expression of disagreement with other elements of your statement.
I also learned something at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2009/Vote/AGK when User:Manning Bartlett parsed an issue which is no less relevant in this setting. I adopt his measured words as my own: "There is a degree of (possibly unintentional) misrepresentation in Caspian's comment ....". For example, no source exists to support what is perhaps the most dramatic claim: "According to him, I'm a foolish barking dog" (italics in original below). I did not write nor say nor think anything like that. Moreover, the explicit context created by the Restatement section and by Obama's conciliatory remarks (as linked and reproduced above) is simply inconsistent with this and other strained accusations. Beyond blunt denial, I don't know to rebuff extravagant "frequent smearing naming-calling like "crying wolf" and his frequent mention about Korean ethnicity." Overreaching is often recognized as unpersuasive, even dissuasive. -- Tenmei ( talk) 23:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
The three sentences of the "Six Month Review" are not plausible, not accurate, not credible in do not acknowledge the context of e-mails sent by me to ArbCom beginning in June.
Not 'Wrong+'
The Review summary trivializes and dismisses my attempts to figure out what the ArbCom decision meant, conflating evidence of each attempt to be scrupulous with something like inattention. Blame is a difficult word; but in this six month period, my words or actions were careful measured and blameless -- consistently and explicitly at odds with the familiar structure of victimization which
Caspian blue erects in his statement on this page or elsewhere.
n my view We acknowledge that it is not necessary for ArbCom to be correct nor even fair. I'm prepared to accept that the volunteer members of the Arbitration Committee do whatever seems practical, which means that I don't even anticipate that any specific decision or series of decisions will be the best of all options. However, the thrust of the Review summary and the increased penalties, narrower restrictions and ratcheted-up punishment imply a perception that I have been unwilling, uncooperative, thoughtless, recalcitrant, heedless or any other of a number of adjectives. I was not unwilling. I was not uninquisitive. This "value-added" opprobrium is unearned, undeserved, unmerited and resistant to parsing.
It's one thing to be simply wrong; and This Review summary contrives something like "wrong+" -- wrong plus something more as well.
As early as June I tried to discover what ArbCom wanted me to do or not do. In the following months My serial e-messages asking ArbCom to explain are not consistent with unwillingness nor uncooperative intention. For example I wrote to
FloNight in June with copies to the ArbCom list; and I construed
Kirill Lokshin response as encouraging me to wait patiently for further feedback.
Carcharoth's response to another request for explanation was explicit in urging patience. Now I am punished for what could have been avoided if only I had asked different questions or understood more about what was expected There is a difference -- a crucial distinction -- between my being merely wrong and "extra-wrong" in terms of the unstated justifications for increased punative burdens, restrictions or penalties which are now imposed. A crucial blurring in the Review summary is married with onerous consequences. This is a bad marriage.
First part of Arbitrators' summary below.
¶1(a). Copy of e-message, Tenmei to ArbCom-List (17 Sept)
Subject: What, if anything, am I supposed to do or not do?
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Second part of Arbitrators' summary below.
¶2-3(a). Copy of e-message, John Vandenberg to Tenmei (17 Nov).
Subject: Is this suitable?
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¶2-3(b). Copy of e-message, Tenmei to John Vandenberg (17 Nov).
Subject: Converting proposed "mentor" into an untrustworthy opponent, which becomes unworkable
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¶2-3(c). Copy of e-message, John Vandenberg to Tenmei (18 Nov).
Subject: Not responded to your emails because it is not our job to be your mentor
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You can not ask for relief while you are violating the ArbCom decision.
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Too long/didn't read
Nothing in this case was a simple matter. This short analysis could not be more concise. I regret the point-of-view of those inclined to reject, dismiss or ignore whatever I write. This is explained, they say, by the rubric of
WP:TLDR. I can only hope that this negative reading is not unilikely to be balanced by others who do read and do try to understand what I have try to explain. In this comment What can be said to those who reject a priori?
Words do matter. Actions do matter. In this case, non-responsive silence and prolonged inaction matter, too.
Consequences are never unimportant.
No harmful consequence flow from identifying the axiomatic presumptions which underly the summary which has now been endorsed by a number of ArbCom members. Rather, I am shouldering reasonable responsibilities in this situation by trying to clarify the context. My explicit and repeated efforts to contribute constructively are demonstrable and not insignificant. I have done what I could to avoid the problems I confront today; and I need to state exactly that.
It is simply wrong to impose added adverse burdens on me as a consequence of failures which were not within my ability to affect. -- Tenmei ( talk) 03:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Your unique usage is not mirrored in the texts of Mentor or Mentorship or WP:Mentorship.
I don't dispute your personal decision to re-define a term, nor do I dispute ArbCom's collective re-defining of terms. However, when you and/or ArbCom does something like this, it cannot be presented as axiomatic. To the extent that your clarifying language is accepted and adopted by your ArbCom colleagues, this becomes something other than what you see is what you get. The Knife-edge effect of this re-definition needs further investigation. This re-definition was not made explicit, thus constriving a bait and switch scenario. My objections now are timely. -- Tenmei ( talk) 19:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Your unique usage is not mirrored in the texts of Mentor or Mentorship or WP:Mentorship.
I don't dispute your personal decision to re-define a term, nor do I dispute ArbCom's collective re-defining of terms. However, when you and/or ArbCom does something like this, it cannot be presented as axiomatic. To the extent that your clarifying language is accepted and adopted by your ArbCom colleagues, this becomes something other than what you see is what you get. Using your own idiomatic words, this is not an instance in which the undefined wiki-term does exactly what it says on the tin. The Knife-edge effect of this re-definition needs further investigation. This re-definition was not made explicit, thus creating a bait and switch scenario. My unanswered questions now are timely. -- Tenmei ( talk) 19:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
"It is altogether too easy to let the burden of the immediate problem obliterate other considerations from your thinking and to jump at what promises to be a quick fix. What often happens is that you have not achieved a long-range success but only converted one difficulty into another perhaps less obvious but no less onerous one."
Still WP:TLDR mixed in with a hefty dose of obfuscation. Doesn't seem to have taken much out of previous arbitration in this regard, which I guess makes sense since he says he couldn't understand it. I don't know anything about the case above and beyond what's written on the RfA page, but the results of arbitration made perfect sense to me, and they seemed more than fair. Bueller 007 ( talk) 01:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
This seems to be nothing more than an attempt to reject the entire arbitration outcome on the grounds that Tenmei was unable to dictate how it was conducted and didn't like the outcome (from memory, he initiated the RFArb). Nick-D ( talk) 03:49, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Tenmei's latest endeveaur is nothing but an example of the need for the case's provisions. Tenmei continues to display the disruptive characteristics that he had in the last dispute(WP:TLDR, unwillingness to work with others, inability to understand policy, etc..). In fact, he is currently engaged in a dispute with User:Historiographer. I support ArbCom's latest provisions, including a prohibition on Tenmei editing without a mentor. I am currently not able to participate fully in the case due to school, SAT and other purposes, but I hope this case will be resolved satisfactorily. I believe that this latest disruption by Tenmei has affirmed my earlier view for the need for a mentor immediately as well as punitive blocks. As Tenmei has rejected the first, it may be necessary to use the second to prevent any more disruption. Teeninvestor ( talk) 18:12, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
As far as I've known, Tenmei is the only person who has freely edited Wikipedia so far without any punishment regardless of his constant refusal to accept the final remedies imposed to him and to abide by WP:NPA and WP:HARASSMENT. His case is quit strikingly in contrast with the cases of Mythdon ( talk · contribs) (and Scuro ( talk · contribs), whose cases were submitted and wrapped in similar times. They all refused to accept mentorship and went on with the same problematic behaviors, so their remedies are intensified. This contrast does not mean that Tenmei has been editing Wikipedia without breaking his sanction, but my skin gets much thicker after Tenmei's long-term harassment of me, and I have not reported Tenmei for his numerous violations to WP:AE in order to block him. I think I really tried to give him another second chance (foolishly) and cooperate with him since his name has been popping up a lot to "newly created Korean-related article board". After the ArbCom case was close, his interests are weirdly moved to Korean related topics, not necessarily about Korea-Japan topics. FloNight recommended me and Teeninvestor to let "others edit the conflicted articles", but such others are almost "none" even though the topics are very notable. I'd been avoiding Tenmei for 3 months after the case was closed although I knew he several times bashed about me [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] when Taemyr ( talk · contribs), informal mentor of Tenmei, criticized Tenmei's behaviors (his abusive tagging of templates, disregards to Korean naming convention, attacks about me). The frequency of Tenmei's editing Korean-related topics are rather hugely increased after the case. His interests were switched from Mongolian-Chinese relations to ancient Korean-Chinese or Korean-Japanese relations. At that times, I was busy for WP:FAR on Gyeongju (Tenmei appeared to edit the article unsurprisingly) and WP:GA on Korean cuisine, so his provocation could be ignored. However, not for other editors.
By editing articles that naturally tend to invite "conflicts" between two different nationals, Tenmei is repeating his old bad habit by just moving onto other editors in dispute such as Historiographer ( talk · contribs). The latter asked me twice to participate in discussion because he felt handling Tenmei's POV pushing and inserting of original research are beyond his capacity. The ArbCom case only covers the article of Tang Dynasty in Inner Asia, so his mentorship and his probation; prohibiting commenting about me anywhere within Wikipedia - could be only things on which I can depend without fear of Tenmei's persistent harassment. However, well...regardless of my reminder that he should not comment about me and focus on topic in discuss, he still does not get it. According to him, I'm a "foolish barking dog" because I pointed out his breach of WP:ARBCOM ban and WP:Personal attacks and WP:Bad faith. That is another unforgettable slur after his favorite naming calling of me "crying wolf" and "toxic warrior" got old fashion. Calling someone dog is perceived to Koreans as a great slur and even often as a racial slur", and I have lost my good faith that he would not know of this given his frequent smearing naming-calling like "crying wolf" and his frequent mention about Korean ethnicity. He so kindly linked the idiom article that he created; that is just typical because he's created perhaps 4 or 5 articles on English idioms just to mock his opponents and quoted them and urged me to "read and learn about them". I've been working with various editors, and he is also the only one who has not been punished at all for his such vicious behaviors (all are either banned, blocked multiply, or topic-banned indefinitely) However, reporting him to WP:ANI is a great time sink and a loss of my health without any action to him because of his WP:TL;DR and inability of communication, so I rather tried to make him acknowledge that he needs mentors to cooperate articles.
However, if I want to fix articles in wrong Romanization per WP:NC-KO, a grand saga would always wait for me. I've explained many times to make Tenmei to understand the naming convention, but he would not listen. Tenmei canvassed about a to-do-list on his opponent's user page to over 10 talk pages. I removed one such offensive message from the talk page, I become engaged in a tag-team according to his attacks. So what should be done with the amendment? Get him a mentor or do the same remedies enforced to Mythdon and Scuro. For the past 6 months, he has refused to move on but repeated the same old habit. I do not want to waste another 6 months over this. In addition, Tenmei still wrongly accuses her Teeninvestor of using "hollow sources"; Teeninvestor has obtained a GA with the book reference.-- Caspian blue 19:35, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Any time that foreign-language text/sources are involved, it should not hurt to have someone fluent in the language to overlook things. (Granted, I have my own views regarding PRC and ROC and their political status, but that's another issue - ask me about it at some point and I probably can assure that you'd get more confused at the end.) If I didn't say it before, I say now that I'm willing to assist regarding foreign language text/sources when I'm provided the references to look at. I've personally translated a few things in the original case; however, I did not manage to gain access to any of the actual text (of the book) itself (which I've stated in the original case, too.) I'm willing to assist - not as a mentor (I've been too inactive to do that) - when translation is required I believe I can be of some help.
But in this case I don't want to take a nosedive without knowing what I'm getting myself into. After all, this is the area where I may be perceived as having a bias - treading carefully is best. - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 02:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Added 04:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC): Make it so that mentors who resign must inform ArbCom and have major mentor activities (resigning, assignment, mentor on wiki-break and needs someone else to step in, etc.) logged on the case page would clear up the status, no? Wouldn't that be a better idea than have the mentor just be publicly identifiable? - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 04:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
{Statement by editor filing request for amendment. Contained herein should be an explanation and evidence detailing why the amendment is necessary.}
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
Since the close of the Tang Dynasty case, Tenmei has continued to edit without a mentor, frequently editing in topical areas where conflicts have occurred in the past, and on occasion has violated the editing restrictions.
The Arbitration Committee's attempts to arrange mentors has proved difficult in this case, especially with Tenmei rejecting a suitable mentor found by the Arbitration Committee recently.
In lieu of a mentor, Tenmei has sought advice from the Arbitration Committee about the decision, editorial disputes and project guidelines and policies. The committee is not able to fulfill the role of a mentor, and regretfully moves to shift the responsibility of obtaining a mentor onto Tenmei.
Tenmei ( talk · contribs) is required to have one or more volunteer mentors, who will be asked to assist him in understanding and following policy and community practice to a sufficient level that additional sanctions will not be necessary.
While Tenmei is without a mentor, Tenmei is prohibited from contributing except for the purpose of communicating with potential mentors. During this period, Tenmei is instructed to avoid talking about other editors.
The mentor must be publicly identified, and willing to make themselves available for other editors to contact them publicly or privately.
Editors who come into conflict with Tenmei are advised to contact the mentor(s) either publicly or via email.
The restrictions in remedy 1.1 are reset, to commence once the mentor arrangement is approved by the Arbitration Committee.
Should Tenmei violate the requirement to have a mentor before contributing, or should Tenmei cause unrest while contacting potential mentors, the user may be briefly blocked for up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one year. All blocks are to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tang Dynasty#Log of blocks and bans.
Ten arbitrators active on these Tang Dynasty case amendment motions, hence a majority of 6. All the motions are currently passing, though the enforcement motion only passes due to abstentions. Three arbitrators left to vote here. Will notify a clerk to prepare a fuller version of these notes, in preparation for closing this, either after the remaining arbitrators vote, or within 24-48 hours. Carcharoth ( talk) 11:58, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Initiated by Tenmei ( talk) at 20:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
ArbCom's
Strategic default?
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ArbCom's
Strategic default?
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In case these words are otherwise overlooked, I echo what Doc James writes here by asking what more is wanted?
Continued delay does not ameliorate any of the problems which ArbCom tacitly agreed to help resolve.
Continued inaction does not mitigate the consequences of the Gordian Knot which this forum wrongly fostered.
The arc of this case serves only to illustrate the relevance of Gresham's law in our Wikipedia community. -- Tenmei ( talk) 16:16, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
The original ArbCom participants in Tang Dynasty affirmed this principle:
Nick-D reminded ArbCom here that I was the one who inititiated this case. In compliance with what I understood to be ArbCom's instructions, I initiated this thread. These actions demonstrate my express purpose -- addressing perceived communication problems by seeking assistance. This deserves due respect.
However, ArbCom's failures of communication impede both collaboration and resolution. We confront serious problems. Thus far, ArbCom itself has not conformed with this adduced principle. Working together, we can move beyond the serial failures of the past year.-- Tenmei ( talk) 18:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
ArbCom's
Strategic default?
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What distinguishes this thread from " Strategic default"? If this is not " Strategic default", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
ArbCom's
Strategic default?
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What distinguishes this thread from " Strategic default"? If this is not " Strategic default", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
ArbCom's
Strategic default?
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How this will work has been made explicit -- expressly provided for by ArbCom or created in order to facilitate the implied Tang Dynasty objectives. I cast a wide net as part of an outside-the-box search for a cohort of co-mentors. My best interests are fulfilled only if their investments of time and thought are made easy and effective.
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What distinguishes this thread from " Strategic default"? If this is not " Strategic default", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Moving the goalposts
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What respects volunteers? This confirmation process can be moved forward by repeating a fundamental axiom: "My best interests are fulfilled only if these volunteers' investments of time and thought are made easy and effective." Risker's questions are not easy; and whatever time volunteers might invest in answering would likely produce little more than ineffective guesswork. In part, mentorship was proposed by ArbCom as a remedy because, "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". In contrast, the wide-ranging search for volunteers ensured that a broad range of tools are available. In part, the group-structure was necessitated by the problems which flow from the ArbCom neologism; and this explains why my Mentorship Committee is comprised of (a) "mentors", as described at Wikipedia:Mentorship#Involuntary mentorship; and (b) "mentors", as conventionally understood and described at Mentorship. No one has volunteered to investigate the conceptual flaws in ArbCom's terminology nor in devising flexible mentoring group structures; rather, each has expressed a willingness to invest a limited amount of time in helping me improve how I participate in our encyclopedia-building project. I construe my responsibilities to "keep my eye on the ball" -- which means paying attention to a changing focal point which encompasses each person’s expectation of what the other expects him to expect to be expected to do. What is the main thing? At User talk:FloNight#Tenmei's mentor, the main objective was clarified: "... a mentor is like a coach mostly." In this explicit context, words from the userpage of Kraftlos offer a succinct response to Risker's three questions and any corollaries:
In June 2009, FloNight restated ArbCom's objectives:
Now is the time to let these volunteer mentors get to work. Reinventing the wheel. As FloNight explained in June 2009, "... if mentors see a new problem they can make it clear to him that they will tell us so that we can promptly handle it. This approach usually works best." As succinctly expressed by SMcCandlish here, " ...this is an encyclopedia-bulding project, not an experiment in virtual governance ...."
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What distinguishes this thread from " moving the goalposts"? If this is not " moving the goalposts", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Raising the bar
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The responses to Steve Smith + Coren + Roger Davies + Risker are comprehensive and clear. Carcharoth's words are like raising the bar, which here takes the form of " feature creep" as objectives are redefined. According to the Wikipedia article about the phrase " moving the goalpost":
At best, Carcharoth's reasoning illustrates a perfect solution fallacy which is inapposite in this unique case. In a context ArbCom has created, it is seemly to adopt the words of DGG as my own.
Carcharoth's diff discourages me. This is truly harmful when it is perceived as discouraging by others. -- Tenmei ( talk) 18:56, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
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What distinguishes this thread from " raising the bar"? If this is not " raising the bar", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Extending a finish line
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What distinguishes this thread from " extending a finish line"? If this is not " extending a finish line", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Changing the terms
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The concerns and reservations raised in this thread are addressed in different ways by each of the mentors. For today, your questions become a kind of red herring except for this:
Each member of the Arbitration Committee should to construe Robofish's words as a justifiable criticism of logical errors in ArbCom-approved mentorship schema. I was able to pursuaede Robofish to step forward; and this modest achievement was undermined. ArbCom snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by effectively persuading Robofish to withdraw.
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What distinguishes this thread from " Changing the terms"? If this is not " Changing the terms", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Your comment here in Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 is relevant in this Tang Dynasty thread: You explained that "[i]n general I dislike giving good-faith requests the runaround."
As it turned out, this Kafkaesque Tang Dynasty ordeal has been naught but a runaround.
As you know, Tang Dynasty began over a year ago when I proposed a very narrowly-defined case. As an appropriate context for this thread, that long-ago beginng remains modest, timely and relevant.
Let me refresh your memory of what I presented as context for narrow questions about how to deflect straw man arguments by re-asserting core policies and the importance of academic credibility in our Wikipedia project. I explained here:
This ArbCom process has produced many questions, but these are the ones with which I began. What ensued was unhelpful. You may recall that you summarized this Gordian Knot as a "welter of words" here.
Any assertion or response I tried to present was overwhelmed. What evolved in the past year has taken on a life of its own. Whether viewed from the starting point over a year ago, or construed in the terms of this one thread, this has been a runaround.
Why?
What distinguishes this thread from a " runaround" If this is not a " runaround", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
Shell Kinney -- Your comment here in Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 is relevant in this Tang Dynasty thread: You explained that "You're back on the right path - give it some time before immersing yourself in a difficult environment again."
In this Tang Dynasty case, please let me refresh your memory of what I presented as context for narrow questions about how to deflect straw man arguments by re-asserting core policies and the importance of academic credibility in our Wikipedia project. I explained here:
Whether viewed from the starting point over a year ago, or construed in the terms of this one thread, I have undoubtedly satisfied whatever anyone might mean by "'give it some time' before immersing yourself in a difficult environment again." Arguably, the effort to locate mentors and their comments in this thread was progress along "the right path" and yet, there is no joy in Mudville.
Why?
What distinguishes this thread from "the right path?" If this is not a "the right path", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.
As requested by Tenmei I will provide some oversight over his editing. I hope that this will allow everyone to get back to what we are here for, writing an encyclopedia. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 22:36, 18 February 2010 (UTC) (jmh649)
I as well have volunteered to provide some oversight. Arbcom said that he is topic banned, does that mean he can contribute to those areas while under oversight, or does it simply mean he needs to be observed in all his edits? -- Kraftlos ( Talk | Contrib) 04:16, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm willing to help Tenmei learn to be concise when posting comments. Based on my observations, he has a tendency to be excessively wordy in his posts, which in turn lends itself to people having a tl;dr reaction to his posts. As long as there are several people on this "mentorship committee", I'm willing to help out. I have a lot of other things I do here, and I'd like this to have only a small impact on that. I think Tenmei can learn and improve (and he has in many ways), so hopefully this mentorship will be deemed unnecessary at some future point. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm continuing to provide Tenmei with advice by email as I had offered here. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 17:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Despite some prior discussion with Tenmei about being a mentor, I chose not to be in this group because i thought the process more complicated than necessary, and there were already quite enough other people. But I can't see any objections if Tenmai wants to try it, since there are willing mentors of high editing quality and proven responsibility. DGG ( talk ) 20:04, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
I am willing to assisst Tenmei in oversighting his edits. Leujohn ( talk, stalk me?) 13:53, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I was told by Amory that Risker had posed some questions here and that I was supposed to come answer them. I'm assuming these are the questions:
It has been said that Wikipedia too easily devolves into a MMORPG. These arbitration actions seem to cross the line more easily than other Wikipedia activities. Risker's questions imply that the mentorship group needs fixed rules for interactions with marauding barbarians and some kind of definite written constitution in order to guide our actions so that our swords are not cutting one another rather than the orcs around us. Nihonjoe is right on the money. We'll work like reasonably intelligent adult human beings and resolve the differences in the true Wikipedia manner--by working toward consensus. (As a note, I don't know where Risker's questions are--he didn't bother to put them in a separate subsection here so that I don't waste my time trying to hack through the jungle. I just used Nihonjoe's summary of them above.)
Here is my take on the situation so far.
When I was first approached by Tenmei to be a volunteer mentor, I made it clear what I thought his problem with communication was. I severely critiqued several of his posts, but while he made them shorter, he still continued to wander off into meaningless metaphor, cut an excessively fine point to the details of his comments, and invent meaningless techno-babble to describe the Arbitration process and his frustrations with aspects of it. Unfortunately, I think it is the style of writing and communication which he learned as a young man and it is so ingrained in him that he is unable to recognize it, let alone change it. It means that his ability to communicate effectively in a discussion and content disagreement on Wikipedia, where the majority of editors do not share the ground from which he draws his metaphors, is severely limited. The techno-babble he invents and insists on using, despite my efforts to tell him to stop using it, means that he actually clouds the issue he is discussing more than he enlightens it. The longer he writes using unknown metaphors and invented techno-babble, the more meaningless his comments become. I hate to be so harsh, but after reading his first email, I stopped reading past the first two sentences of subsequent emails. He fails to understand that other Wikipedia editors will do exactly the same thing in any content dispute. While his expertise would be a great contribution to Wikipedia, he is unable to communicate it to the typical Wikipedia editor. Imagine going into battle with two weapons. One weapon will kill one enemy at a time, but has a single button that says, "Push to fire". The other weapon will kill all enemies at once, but has a 1,000-page instruction manual that details the history of the weapon's development, the academic qualifications of its makers, the theory behind its operation, and the instruction "Push the red button to fire" buried on page 739 in the middle of the page. Unfortunately, Tenmei wrote the latter instruction and I'm not certain that the writer who produced the 1,000-page instruction manual is capable of creating a sticker on the side of the weapon that says "Push to fire". To him, it's just not elegant or subtle or finely-honed enough; it carries none of the warnings or history or comparisons to classical warfare that decorate the verbiage of the manual. ( Taivo ( talk) 22:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC))
I'll keep this brief. When I agreed to be a mentor, I assumed it would be a fairly simple task, a matter of overseeing Tenmei's edits, giving him occasional advice, and helping him to resolve disputes (or, ideally, avoid getting into them in the first place). It looks now that it would be something more complex and formal, involving discussing things with the other mentors and agreeing with them before deciding whether any particular action can receive our approval. Basically, it sounds like it's getting too bureaucratic to me, and as I don't have as much time to spend on Wikipedia as I used to anyway, I think I have to drop out. Sorry Tenmei - I hope you're able to work something out here and reach a universally acceptable solution that will allow you to return to editing, but I don't think I'm able to be part of it. Robofish ( talk) 00:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Per request, I've taken the time to review the posed questions and provide my answers, as well as my general understanding of the situation. First of all, I believe that Tenmei has the basics of becoming a good Wikipedia editor. However, one skill in which Tenmei needs assistance is in collaboration with others. Bombarding users with philosophical metaphors is not very helpful. I'm eager to assist because what I see in Tenmei is something I see in myself ... that is, I find myself in real life trying to provide all the possible information I can, instead of just what the requester asked for. I think, in time, we'll both learn something during this process, and that appeals to me.
Now, as to the questions posed by Risker:
(a) how you will address differences amongst yourselves (a situation we have encountered in other mentoring situations)?
(b) what range of actions you are willing to undertake as individuals and as a group?
(c) how the "group" will work when Tenmei is also receiving private advice from individuals not specifically included in the group of mentors.
I think that the goal here is a sound one ... provide Tenmei with guidance as to how to better collaborate with other editors on the project, and I'm prepared to assist in any way I can.
-- McDoobAU93 ( talk) 00:01, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I have to agree with the others who have commented here. This is simply us checking in on Tenmei and trying to keep him going in a positive direction. I know you guys were expecting some sort of formal process here, but to me that seems counterproductive. I imagine any of us can comment on his editing habits, and if needed we can ask the other mentors for opinions. This isn't rocket science. I think Tenmei's editing has been held up for too long, the only way he is going to learn is through practice. So what is this:
How does that sound? -- Kraftlos ( Talk | Contrib) 04:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Note that John Carter ( contribs) has not edited since December 24. I don't think there's any point in waiting for a reply from him at this point in time before proceeding. The others have all replied. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 16:51, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
I apologize for not paying attention tot his discussion lately. I was off wiki the last week or so.
Please remember that I am not the only mentor, so I am only speaking for myself. Leujohn ( talk, stalk me?) 10:27, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I think the recommendations above are reasonable. Details can be determined if events occur. I think it is time to get Tenmei back to editing the main space. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 10:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Tenmei ( talk · contribs) may edit Wikipedia under the guidance of his self-declared mentors ( Nihonjoe ( talk · contribs), Kraftlos ( talk · contribs), Coppertwig ( talk · contribs), Leujohn ( talk · contribs), Jmh649 ( talk · contribs), McDoobAU93 ( talk · contribs)). The period of mentorship will last six months from the date on which this motion passes, although it may be extended with the agreement of Tenmei and one or more mentors. Tenmei is strongly encouraged to seek advice and guidance from his mentors regularly. Should they deem it necessary, Tenmei's mentors may return to the Arbitration Committee for clarification of any editing restrictions or questions with respect to the terms of mentorship. Editors who come into conflict with Tenmei are advised to contact the mentor(s) either publicly or via email.
Tenmei is reminded of the remedies from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tang Dynasty that apply to him. Specifically:
There being 16 arbitrators, 6 of whom are inactive, the majority is 6.