Personally, I would drop the "Was Lar right to Check User SV's friends" part of things, as this was brought up with numerous groups who ok'd the check, both pre and post check, and get right to the meat of the matter, which is SlimVirgin's tendentious attempts to smear other editors, forum-shopping, and violation of Wikipedia's rules on No Personal Attacks. In that, I do not think a SECOND ArbCom case featuring SlimVirgin would do anything, and any remedies could be handled in the current ArbCom case. SirFozzie ( talk) 19:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
The question of whether it is acceptable to release checkuser log information to non-checkusers should also be examined, and whoever did so in this case should come forward and be added as a party. -- Random832 ( contribs) 21:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC) Also, if any investigation of checkusers' reason for running checks (and whether those reasons are inappropriate, inadequate, or otherwise "bad") is conducted, it should not be restricted to Lar. -- Random832 ( contribs) 23:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Should the ArbCom decide not to accept the case, I urge that the notification should include a reminder to all parties of the inappropriateness of publicising claims and accusations in public areas which cannot be dealt with in that fora. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 21:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Regardless of what occurs here, I'd like to see a clear, firm statement from ArbCom detailing exactly what checkuser log information can be published on request; request times and dates, checkusers involved, request rationale, etc. It's quite clear from this event and from others that this is a grey area and one in which some checkusers are unclear as to what is permitted or otherwise. I can see the rationale for limited release of data to editors having been checkusered, but under strict circumstances. This discussion may be relevant.
May I also say that I'm highly disappointed that checkuser-related information be used in this manner to berate someone who is ostensibly unable to reply due to the nature of the privacy policy and the case in hand. Furthermore, I'm disappointed that a vulnerable third-party is put at further risk in being used as a pawn in someone else's political machinations. From a Wikipedian, that sort of behaviour is unacceptable.
I think a private case, however that would be carried out, may be appropriate. As such I won't address the issues here, other than to note that SV has again made a number of serious allegations against numerous people which are out of place, unsupported and wildly incorrect. I think there are other issues with the involved editors' actions that should be evaluated as well.
Since one of the allegations is again to repeat that I have some history of causing her problems, I will point out here: until I raised some of these issues with ArbCom in September 2007, I had in fact never raised SV's actions anywhere on Wikipedia, at least to my recollection. I had, solely, edited in the same area as her for a few months, while attempting to make that work. When I did raise some of these issues with ArbCom and later on Wiki, however, I can't say I am surprised that she has continually and grossly misrepresented our interaction everywhere that I'm able to see. I would appreciate if ArbCom could address this as well. Mackan79 ( talk) 04:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
"When no defense is possible, attack," seems to be the strategy that has been employed. Jehochman Talk 13:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
(re:Jdforrester's statement below) Because of the rather public accusations of malfeasance being tossed about with great force, I would think that it would be in everyone's best interest if the arbitrators publicly acknowledged that the allegations were being considered (or declined, as the case may be). Horologium (talk) 20:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
It was my understanding from Lar's 11:49, 17 July 2008 comment in that clusterfuck of a thread that the Ombudsman commission had been involved, but the statement above by Thatcher contradicts that. So, was the Ombudsman commission involved or not? If it wasn't, would the ArbCom consider this case alongside them if accepted, or remit it to them if rejected? Titoxd( ?!? - cool stuff) 06:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I concur with Titoxd's reading of that comment and think it would be a good idea on behalf of ArbCom (or Mackensen as an ombudsman) to clarify who is looking at this. — Giggy 07:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Mackensen's statement above appears to indicate that he was the ombudsman that heard the matter? Viridae Talk 12:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
(Originaly in reply to James F.'s comment below asking how they are expected to proceed.)
The forming consensus on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee is (unless someone would like to correct me) that you,
Hope that helps you understand how to proceed. -- Barberio ( talk) 11:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
If there is found to be any inappropriateness in the conduct of the checkuser, this should include the review of other possible inarticulate CUs which have been suspected of similar direction. If this discussion were to be continued in private by ArbCom, which I think may be the most appropriate course of action, there should at least be a clarification under which circumstances CU evidence is to be released publicly. As with LHvU, there 'should include a reminder to all parties of the inappropriateness of publicising claims and accusations in public areas which cannot be dealt with in that fora.' Rud get 12:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest that if SlimVirgin refuses to participate in this Arbcom case, but continues to venue-shop diff-less allegations elsewhere, that Arbcom should simply review the internal evidence and if, as appears to be the case, the allegations are trumped-up nonsense, vindicate both Lar and Mackan79 in the clearest of possible terms and call it a day.
As to what if anything should be done about SV’s malfeasance, it is a difficult question and probably a moot one. SV is an unusual editor in that she is many things at once: an intelligent, engaging, inquiring intellect; a loyal wiki-friend; a terrific writer and uncommonly productive editor; a habitual POV-pusher, hobby-horse rider and original researcher; and a chronic “victim” and vengeful liar. As content is the preeminent thing in a volunteer encyclopedia, even more important than honesty and decency, and as Slim is a prolific contributor of, on the whole, extremely high-quality content, I do not think she should be perma-banned. And given that she has no record of admin abuse per se, I don’t even think she should be desysopped. Her enormous productive energies should not go to waste. But when she cries foul, when she labels someone a “troublemaker” or “troll-enabler” or “CU-in-WR’s-pocket” or whatever the latest oleaginous smear, the reaction of admins and Arbcom members should approximate that of a World Cup ref when a member of the Italian national soccer team dives to the ground and grimaces in agony while grasping his unscathed ankle.-- G-Dett ( talk) 02:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
It’s really sad to see such an acrimonious conflict between two of Wikipedia's most respected administrators. Rather than focusing on a destructive cycle of accusations and counter-accusations which is only going to promote hatred and fear, let's forget about what did or did not occur months or years ago off-wiki or hidden in checkuser logs, and focus on camaraderie with regard to our shared interest in developing an excellent reference work. Kristen Eriksen ( talk) 18:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't intend, of course, to make light of actual checkuser malfeasance. If Lar had posted SlimVirgin's IP address on the administrators' noticeboard, we'd have a problem. But what appears to have occurred here is that Lar performed a check involving SlimVirgin that he in good faith believed was justified, nobody's IP address was disclosed, then SlimVirgin, genuinely beliving the check to be abusive, publically complained about it across all available fora. This is a case study in how fear and suspicion creates a cycle of self-perpetuating negativity: Lar distrusts SlimVirgin, and actually thinks she is operating a sockpuppet => Lar performs a check involving SlimVirgin (without any incriminating result, or we would have heard about that long ago) => SlimVirgin hears of the check, and publically airs her grievances with it => we have an arbcom case. And this isn't going to be constructively resolved through more punitive negativity, along the lines of "Lar is uncheckusered for abuse of the tool" or "SlimVirgin is banned for libel". What's needed here is healing, a mutual recognition by both SlimVirgin and Lar that while they have both made mistakes, their extensive editorial and administrative contributions over the course of several years demonstrate that they are both ultimately here to improve the encyclopedia. Kristen Eriksen ( talk) 18:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
As a matter of pure curiosity, could a member, or members of the Committee please provide an update on the progress of this case (i.e. a rough date by which a final decision is likely to be posted at this stage)? Ncmvocalist ( talk) 09:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The arbs should take time for careful consideration, especially with the recent concerns about the privacy of checkuser information. It's more important to look at everything and reach a conclusion the community can trust than to satisfy onlookers' wish for speed. Tom Harrison Talk 20:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
The aforementioned finding of fact has been deleted from this case's final decision. It was mistakenly included due to an arithmetic miscalculation by the closing Clerk (it seems that due to a number of abstentions and other factors the majority on that particular finding was adjusted downwards, but adjusted too far by the Clerk—see WP:AC/C/P#Calculating the majority).
Background reading:
This note placed here solely for the public record.
AGK 12:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Archived by Tznkai at 16:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I've added the following two motions to the SlimVirgin/Giano/FT2 motion. They have been removed by User: Thatcher with a remark "only arbitrators may propose motions, this is not a workshop". I don't agree with this comment at all - at least I found no such statement on the page, and I see no compelling reason for this restriction. However, I'll put them up for discussion here. I'll also add at least one other motion below. Stephan Schulz ( talk) 20:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Note to Clerks: This section can please be archived on the talkpage of the case. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 03:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Archived by Tznkai at 16:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't know whether it's okay to comment like this after the case so feel free to revert but I came across this case due to the arbcom vote and one thing which interests me that no one seems to have commented on (that I noticed) is that SV actions were far more effective at compromising the identity of User:Wikitumnus then anything Lar may have done. By making such a big, very public fuss people started to get interested and to dig. Ultimately it was bound to come out. I'm not familiar with the details to be sure if it came out before or after Wikitumnus revealed who he/she was but it seems to me that it was far less likely to happen without this big inane mess. A reminder perhaps that if you really care about someone's identity being kept secret, it's a very bad idea to shout what isn't secret from the roof top. Nil Einne ( talk) 14:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I would drop the "Was Lar right to Check User SV's friends" part of things, as this was brought up with numerous groups who ok'd the check, both pre and post check, and get right to the meat of the matter, which is SlimVirgin's tendentious attempts to smear other editors, forum-shopping, and violation of Wikipedia's rules on No Personal Attacks. In that, I do not think a SECOND ArbCom case featuring SlimVirgin would do anything, and any remedies could be handled in the current ArbCom case. SirFozzie ( talk) 19:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
The question of whether it is acceptable to release checkuser log information to non-checkusers should also be examined, and whoever did so in this case should come forward and be added as a party. -- Random832 ( contribs) 21:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC) Also, if any investigation of checkusers' reason for running checks (and whether those reasons are inappropriate, inadequate, or otherwise "bad") is conducted, it should not be restricted to Lar. -- Random832 ( contribs) 23:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Should the ArbCom decide not to accept the case, I urge that the notification should include a reminder to all parties of the inappropriateness of publicising claims and accusations in public areas which cannot be dealt with in that fora. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 21:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Regardless of what occurs here, I'd like to see a clear, firm statement from ArbCom detailing exactly what checkuser log information can be published on request; request times and dates, checkusers involved, request rationale, etc. It's quite clear from this event and from others that this is a grey area and one in which some checkusers are unclear as to what is permitted or otherwise. I can see the rationale for limited release of data to editors having been checkusered, but under strict circumstances. This discussion may be relevant.
May I also say that I'm highly disappointed that checkuser-related information be used in this manner to berate someone who is ostensibly unable to reply due to the nature of the privacy policy and the case in hand. Furthermore, I'm disappointed that a vulnerable third-party is put at further risk in being used as a pawn in someone else's political machinations. From a Wikipedian, that sort of behaviour is unacceptable.
I think a private case, however that would be carried out, may be appropriate. As such I won't address the issues here, other than to note that SV has again made a number of serious allegations against numerous people which are out of place, unsupported and wildly incorrect. I think there are other issues with the involved editors' actions that should be evaluated as well.
Since one of the allegations is again to repeat that I have some history of causing her problems, I will point out here: until I raised some of these issues with ArbCom in September 2007, I had in fact never raised SV's actions anywhere on Wikipedia, at least to my recollection. I had, solely, edited in the same area as her for a few months, while attempting to make that work. When I did raise some of these issues with ArbCom and later on Wiki, however, I can't say I am surprised that she has continually and grossly misrepresented our interaction everywhere that I'm able to see. I would appreciate if ArbCom could address this as well. Mackan79 ( talk) 04:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
"When no defense is possible, attack," seems to be the strategy that has been employed. Jehochman Talk 13:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
(re:Jdforrester's statement below) Because of the rather public accusations of malfeasance being tossed about with great force, I would think that it would be in everyone's best interest if the arbitrators publicly acknowledged that the allegations were being considered (or declined, as the case may be). Horologium (talk) 20:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
It was my understanding from Lar's 11:49, 17 July 2008 comment in that clusterfuck of a thread that the Ombudsman commission had been involved, but the statement above by Thatcher contradicts that. So, was the Ombudsman commission involved or not? If it wasn't, would the ArbCom consider this case alongside them if accepted, or remit it to them if rejected? Titoxd( ?!? - cool stuff) 06:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I concur with Titoxd's reading of that comment and think it would be a good idea on behalf of ArbCom (or Mackensen as an ombudsman) to clarify who is looking at this. — Giggy 07:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Mackensen's statement above appears to indicate that he was the ombudsman that heard the matter? Viridae Talk 12:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
(Originaly in reply to James F.'s comment below asking how they are expected to proceed.)
The forming consensus on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee is (unless someone would like to correct me) that you,
Hope that helps you understand how to proceed. -- Barberio ( talk) 11:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
If there is found to be any inappropriateness in the conduct of the checkuser, this should include the review of other possible inarticulate CUs which have been suspected of similar direction. If this discussion were to be continued in private by ArbCom, which I think may be the most appropriate course of action, there should at least be a clarification under which circumstances CU evidence is to be released publicly. As with LHvU, there 'should include a reminder to all parties of the inappropriateness of publicising claims and accusations in public areas which cannot be dealt with in that fora.' Rud get 12:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest that if SlimVirgin refuses to participate in this Arbcom case, but continues to venue-shop diff-less allegations elsewhere, that Arbcom should simply review the internal evidence and if, as appears to be the case, the allegations are trumped-up nonsense, vindicate both Lar and Mackan79 in the clearest of possible terms and call it a day.
As to what if anything should be done about SV’s malfeasance, it is a difficult question and probably a moot one. SV is an unusual editor in that she is many things at once: an intelligent, engaging, inquiring intellect; a loyal wiki-friend; a terrific writer and uncommonly productive editor; a habitual POV-pusher, hobby-horse rider and original researcher; and a chronic “victim” and vengeful liar. As content is the preeminent thing in a volunteer encyclopedia, even more important than honesty and decency, and as Slim is a prolific contributor of, on the whole, extremely high-quality content, I do not think she should be perma-banned. And given that she has no record of admin abuse per se, I don’t even think she should be desysopped. Her enormous productive energies should not go to waste. But when she cries foul, when she labels someone a “troublemaker” or “troll-enabler” or “CU-in-WR’s-pocket” or whatever the latest oleaginous smear, the reaction of admins and Arbcom members should approximate that of a World Cup ref when a member of the Italian national soccer team dives to the ground and grimaces in agony while grasping his unscathed ankle.-- G-Dett ( talk) 02:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
It’s really sad to see such an acrimonious conflict between two of Wikipedia's most respected administrators. Rather than focusing on a destructive cycle of accusations and counter-accusations which is only going to promote hatred and fear, let's forget about what did or did not occur months or years ago off-wiki or hidden in checkuser logs, and focus on camaraderie with regard to our shared interest in developing an excellent reference work. Kristen Eriksen ( talk) 18:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't intend, of course, to make light of actual checkuser malfeasance. If Lar had posted SlimVirgin's IP address on the administrators' noticeboard, we'd have a problem. But what appears to have occurred here is that Lar performed a check involving SlimVirgin that he in good faith believed was justified, nobody's IP address was disclosed, then SlimVirgin, genuinely beliving the check to be abusive, publically complained about it across all available fora. This is a case study in how fear and suspicion creates a cycle of self-perpetuating negativity: Lar distrusts SlimVirgin, and actually thinks she is operating a sockpuppet => Lar performs a check involving SlimVirgin (without any incriminating result, or we would have heard about that long ago) => SlimVirgin hears of the check, and publically airs her grievances with it => we have an arbcom case. And this isn't going to be constructively resolved through more punitive negativity, along the lines of "Lar is uncheckusered for abuse of the tool" or "SlimVirgin is banned for libel". What's needed here is healing, a mutual recognition by both SlimVirgin and Lar that while they have both made mistakes, their extensive editorial and administrative contributions over the course of several years demonstrate that they are both ultimately here to improve the encyclopedia. Kristen Eriksen ( talk) 18:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
As a matter of pure curiosity, could a member, or members of the Committee please provide an update on the progress of this case (i.e. a rough date by which a final decision is likely to be posted at this stage)? Ncmvocalist ( talk) 09:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The arbs should take time for careful consideration, especially with the recent concerns about the privacy of checkuser information. It's more important to look at everything and reach a conclusion the community can trust than to satisfy onlookers' wish for speed. Tom Harrison Talk 20:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
The aforementioned finding of fact has been deleted from this case's final decision. It was mistakenly included due to an arithmetic miscalculation by the closing Clerk (it seems that due to a number of abstentions and other factors the majority on that particular finding was adjusted downwards, but adjusted too far by the Clerk—see WP:AC/C/P#Calculating the majority).
Background reading:
This note placed here solely for the public record.
AGK 12:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Archived by Tznkai at 16:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I've added the following two motions to the SlimVirgin/Giano/FT2 motion. They have been removed by User: Thatcher with a remark "only arbitrators may propose motions, this is not a workshop". I don't agree with this comment at all - at least I found no such statement on the page, and I see no compelling reason for this restriction. However, I'll put them up for discussion here. I'll also add at least one other motion below. Stephan Schulz ( talk) 20:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Note to Clerks: This section can please be archived on the talkpage of the case. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 03:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Archived by Tznkai at 16:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't know whether it's okay to comment like this after the case so feel free to revert but I came across this case due to the arbcom vote and one thing which interests me that no one seems to have commented on (that I noticed) is that SV actions were far more effective at compromising the identity of User:Wikitumnus then anything Lar may have done. By making such a big, very public fuss people started to get interested and to dig. Ultimately it was bound to come out. I'm not familiar with the details to be sure if it came out before or after Wikitumnus revealed who he/she was but it seems to me that it was far less likely to happen without this big inane mess. A reminder perhaps that if you really care about someone's identity being kept secret, it's a very bad idea to shout what isn't secret from the roof top. Nil Einne ( talk) 14:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)